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tv   CNN Tonight With Don Lemon  CNN  November 19, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm PST

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no. we stand. >> your son is only 17 months. >> yes. >> so still, he doesn't understand. >> but he feels everything. and he know everything. we talk about it. and then he cry. but he was crying about -- because his mother, he miss his mother. so i took my phone and put some music that he was listening with his mother, and we look at photos. he show me, this is my mother. mama, mama, mama, mama. and then he cries and we cry together. we don't pretend we are not sad or devastated. no, we are. but we stand. since friday night, life decide for me. day after day, i will see. >> incredible strength. that does it for us tonight.
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"cnn tonight" with don lemon starts now. >> just heart wrenching, anderson. it is 10:00 p.m. on the east coast. 4:00 a.m. in paris where anderson is. the hunt for saleh abdel salam continues tonight. abdelhamid abaaoud is killed in the police raid. meanwhile, isis releases a video threatening to conquer rome and blow up the white house in the united states. we are not showing the complete video because we don't want to give undo attention to isis propaganda. and the fbi is watching dozens of people they think are capable of carrying out a copy cat attack. we go back to anderson. investigators scored a victory with this raid in saint-denny.
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>> abdelsalam was involved in the attack. he got away. he was pulled over by french authorities on a highway on the way to belgium. they did not -- his name didn't raise any alarms. they didn't at that point realize his brother had been one of the attackers who died on friday night. they let him and two others go. the two people he is with, they have already been arrested and are going to be charged. but he is still very much on the loose. there have been hundreds of raids here in france. as you know, don, there are emergency powers in place which make it much ease wrer for police to act quickly without search warrants and more on just suspicions of people. there have also now been dozens of raids throughout belgium.
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it is believed he was last in belgium. but as you know, it is so easy to move from country to country here, there is no telling where he may be at this point. >> let's talk about the raid the night before last. the female suicide bomber was identified today. what have you learned about her and her relatives? >> well, it's really interesting. a lot of people are saying it's only very recently that she radicalized and within a month or two, a lot of people are saying she has quite a history. she liked to party and drink. she smoked there are pictures of her online in a bath. the idea that she became radicalized so recently, a lot of people said she probably never read the quran. the idea she had extensive knowledge of israel is doubtful as many of these people don't. but she was wearing some sort of
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decide device. she is the 'cause on it have ring leader and that is believed how she was brought into this network and she, of course, blew herself up on that raid in sain saint-denis. >> they are worried that there could be a third team involved. but many people hope at least at this hour that there are only two teams involved and this was only going to be a one-two punch from isis. they are also interrogating around the clock all the people that they've arrested, trying to get information from them about this wider network. still these two people at large.
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they don't have a very good handle on where they are at this point, don. and so all this intelligence is vitally important. and we are learning there is a wider network believed to be behind the string of attacks and this attack itself. it's located in raqqah, syria. a group of a half dozen french and belgium operatives. and they include fabien clain who was very active in europe. he was recruiting people to go fight in iraq during the insurgency in the 2000s. in 2009 he plotted an attack against the bataclan concert hall in france and he was arrested and convicted to recruit people to go to iraq.
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when he got out of jail he gravitated off to syria and climbed up the ranks. a master manipulator. and i'm told by european security officials that he was working in tandem with abdelhamid abaaoud to launch these string of attempted plots and attacks over the past year. he is at large and in raqqah and claimed responsibility for this attack on saturday in french, talking about these eight attackers. talking about how the targets had been meticulously selected, suggesting insider knowledge about the operation. the suspicion is he is one of the key brains behind this. >> we have a clip from clain. [ speaking in french ]. >> how many other people are
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working with clain? how much training are they receiving? >> more than 6,000 european extremists who have gone off to fight, more than a thousand french nationals, 300 belgian nationals. they have a huge recruiting pool to choose from. they are quickly selecting new recruits and giving them very quick training and sending them out. that's what i've been told. and the reason they're doing that is these radicals can come from europe and take a two or three week vacation in turkey. they go right through the border and use the smuggling networks and link up with isis. very quick training, all the way back. and not so much suspicion because they have just been in the region for two or three weeks. this is an ingenious new tactic being used by isis. giving them basic weapons skills, trying to infiltrate
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more experienced optatives in and bomb makers who can make this tatp. and the belgians believe the bomb maker is still at large and they are worried about that. and there is saleh abdelsalam. and the worry is he could go out in a blaze of glory at some point. >> a new isis video today. what is the track record with these propaganda videos? i'm wondering if any video has been linked to any concrete action by isis? >> it doesn't but it's they have over the last few days, really singled out the united states. i've got to say, talk of washington, d.c., new york, and the latest video of the white house. clearly the united states is a priority target for them. it would be a huge propaganda victory for them. help them with their global
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competition with al qaeda. isis definitely want to attack the united states. but there are far fewer american extremists joining the group, a couple hundred. their best chance of launching an attack is to getting the european recruits to get on a plane to the united states, buy weapons, build bombs and do it over there. one of the aspects of this plot was some of the attackers could have got on planes and got to the united states. something they will be look carefully for in the future. >> anderson, amidst all the grieving and fear you spent time with a little boy and his dad today. let's listen. >> you see him --
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[ speaking in french ]. >> what was it like, anderson, sitting with him? >> you know, don, that's a boy named brandon and his father who was interviewed over here at the memorial behind us several days ago. that video has been seen millions of times around the world. it was a conversation between a father and son about guns versus flowers and the gun trying to make his little boy feel safe and understand what is happening here. we wanted to follow up with them and see how they are doing. and it was interesting. the boy, brandon is still, clearly, trying to make sense,
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trying to understand what happened. he is still very concerned. so we had a really interesting conversation. and i think what is important about it is that it is a conversation that parents are having all throughout france and belgium and elsewhere as kids see the images on tv and have a hard time understanding as we all, frankly, do. so we wanted to see this family how they're doing because they really speak for a lot of families throughout france. we'll have the full interview tomorrow. >> i can't wait to see the rest of that. thank you sou much. terror raids in belgium. are isis sympathizers hiding in plain site. and one-on-one with ian hirsi ali. the future belongs to the fast.
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. our breaking news. the search for salah abdeslam is expanding tonight. belgian police conducting a series of raids tonight. how many arrests today in belgium. do we know anything about who got picked up? >> we know it was nine people.
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we don't know who they are. we know they were brought in for questioning. belgian police can hold them for 48 hours without charging them. and six of them have to do with a guy who is already dead. so it doesn't look like they found salah abdeslam. >> why haven't the belgian authorities been able to track these guys successfully? >> the belgian security forces have been criticized not only why could they not track them after the fact but what were they doing before the fact. so many of the attackers have been known as petty criminals. bilal hafdi fled to syria. they knew the abdeslam brothers had an attempt to go to turkey.
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the prime minister of belgium announced an overhaul and upgrade in the security system and also trying to get into these muslim communities to try to step up what is the counterterrorism effort here in belgium. >> drew griffin tonight in belgium, thank you very much, sir. appreciate it. imagine being in the building as the raid for the attacks was unfolding. we have an eyewitness account of that. >> i turned on the light and the police were right there. they told me to turn the light off, close the window, and close the curtains. >> this is what the 30-year-old woke up to when police stormed the building where she lives. she had no idea that abdelhamid abaaoud, the mastermind of the paris attacks was two floors
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above. there are police everywhere, every floor, every place. we didn't know why. we were in a panic and we stayed there until 5:00 a.m., two hours in the apartment, in a small hallway. me and a friend and her three kids. >> she told us how the walls were shaking with the force of the blast. she was convinced she was going to die. >> translator: we saw nothing but death. for kids it was so horrible. it was like a nightmare. >> reporter: were they crying, i asked? >> translator: yes, they were screaming and crying. the little one who was five years old, the little boy asked his mom, are we going to die? it was mother fight. >> reporter: after two horrifying hours they were evacuated by police. >> translator: we're in shock. this is something i could never even wish on my worst enemy. >> new threats tonight from isis
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. tonight, isis propaganda threatens more attacks in paris and an assault in rome and fiery attack on the white house, vowing to turn it black from flames. here now to discuss that is graeme wood. we know that abdelhamid abaaoud is dead but he was involved in four of the six foiled terror plots in france. terrorist
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operation since 9/11. hitting a national monument and then within a space of a half hour all of these soft target including summary execution in a concert center. >> the fbi, michael, the fbi director said we are seeing fewer americans traveling to syria. he hopes the message has gotten out that it is hell on earth and the so-called caliphate but it could be that isis is directing their recruits not to travel and do it where they are. >> i saw a chart that showed the number of -- the country of
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origin where isis is talked about the most in a laudatory faction. number one is saudi arabia, number four is the united states, above egypt and above the united kingdom. another official months ago says there are sleeper cells in all 50 states. they have a foreign expedition neighbor wings. zarqawi was the founder. they are returning to form. this is the classic model. attack the west when you can in these terrorizing attacks but also part of their strategy remaining and expanding. the pushing out of the caliphate. if you look at the dabiq, they give up on the expanding but
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emphasize the remaining. >> you just glossed over there are sleeper cells in all 50 states. >> this is a u.s. intelligence official saying this. the director of one of the national intelligence agencies. i forget which. is that all that surprising? no. we have a population of 300 million people. when i say sleeper cell that doesn't mean thousands of people running around it could be two or three or half a dozen. in paris what we are looking at is fewer than a dozen people that are known. what is unknown is the network. we tend to codify these things. >> when you say a sleeper cell, does that mean they are being directed by isis or are they sort of lone wolves, so to speak or does it matter? >> i think in the case of the 50
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states, it is usually considered something along the lines of sympathizers. it may be directed. it may not. but what is interesting about the paris attack is that although it is part of what isis does to have attacks overseas this is a tidal shift where they were emphasizing having people go to syria. and now if they are, in fact, going toward france, then you know, they had 2,000-odd people go from france to syria. sending them back in the other direction is a major change of strategy. >> what about this idea of telling people the possibility is they are telling them to kill where they are? >> they had said before, kill where you are if you can't make it to syria. now, they may send people back and tell some people kill where you are, even if you have the opportunity to go to syria. but overall, it's been a
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strategy of building a state and the emphasis of foreign spectacular attacks has been much less than, say, al qaeda. >> i recently interviewed a defector from isis's security service. and what he was describing to me. he was deployed to one of two cities in aleppo. >> he said he was brainwashed, right? >> that and also, what isis is doing is colonial occupation. isis at the top is led by iraqis. in syria, you know, the iraqis are the upper echelon. but the middle, everybody is nonsyrian, due neegss, turks, algerians, palestinians. people are beginning to chafe because they feel like they are occupied by a united nations of
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iraqis. that is a chief vulnerability of isis. >> so why did he defect? >> he found them to be both incompetent and brutal and men dashs. this is a totalitarian project. if you read isis media, they are in charge in tikrit and running kobani. he joked that any comment, stray or errant can get your head cut off. the gods and angels fought with us in aleppo. why not in kobani? . he just had enough. and he said this reminds me of the regime of assad. it's no different. >> much of what the president has been saying is that you have to fight what stems -- what draws people to this. in a way that is fighting ideology. how do you fight ideology?
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>> one of the problems is that ideology is often unalterable. one of the factors of isis' ideology is that it is remaining and expanding and victorious. in that case, there are some ways to show that that is simply false. and some of the efforts that have been undertaken by kurds to roll back the territory of isis shows and false fies that claim. when they are defeated on the battlefield, that will do a lot to take the shine off the ideological aspect. >> did you say this is a tier system with isis and al qaeda? are these the people who would have been joining al qaeda a decade ago? >> probably. there is a generational schism taking place in jihad.
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isis is the cooler brand. we are not your granddaddy's jihadi. we are younger and vibrant. >> you look at the videos and so on. right. go on. >> it's one of the issues of dabiq, they interviewed an al qaeda agent who came back from the heartland where al qaeda has central command and he said it is not like the caliphate here. over there the pack stannys run schools and they are not in control. they are partnering with the apostate regime. >> and the most recent issue, you see the leader of al qaeda, and he looks elderly. he looks like he is sitting in an old folks home and the image of isis, fighting, winning, expanding. >> that's what they want. that's the purpose of the
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picture? >> yes. >> stand by. when we come back, does isis want the west to attack them? if so, why is that?
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. should the west take the fight to isis in syria? is that what isis wants us to do? back is graeme wood and michael weiss. they have to keep territory. i want you to listen to president barack obama on monday. he is laying out the approach to fighting isis. >> and the more we shrink the territory, the less they can pretend that they are somehow a functioning state and the more it becomes apparent that they are simply a network of killers who are brutalizing local populations. that allows us to reduce the flow of foreign fighters which then over time will lessen the
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number of terrorists who can carry out the attacks like in paris. >> they are a funning state and they are a network of killers. these are not mutually exclusive things. but one of the things they promise to foreign fighters in particular is that they are creating a call fite and implementing islamic law along certain lines. so it is important that their territory is taken away, eroded. and if they simply become al qaeda that is a nonterritorial terrorist organization then a lot of what they promised the utopian image is gone. that is an important aspect of fighting them. >> you both say that isis wants the west to attack them. why is that? >> this is part of their snare. osama bin laden anticipated the u.s. would next go into iraq. and he was hoping this would be the case. because iraq would be a sign for
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an international casting call of the likes of which had nonbeen seen since the soviet-afghan war. dabiq, the name of the magazine, the way they have chosen this, it's in the theology that this is where the arm gettageddon isg to take place. there is a quote in -- which is the front of every issue of dabiq, i'm going to let the cleansing fires of the apocalypse begins in dabiq. the irony, of course that bashar al assad's regime was going into iraq. and this is blowback in the classic definition of the term. they want the west to come in and fight but not the way you think. >> but it's not the way they said american blood is best?
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>> they would love -- they captured a jordanian airman whose plane fell out of the sky and they burned him alive on international television. what would they do with an american serviceman that they capture? much worse than what they did with james foley and steven sotloff. beware the unintended consequence. what are we doing to fight them? we are using every actor in syria and iraq who is not the main constituent of isis, the main constituent of isis is the sunni arabs. that is the heartland upon which they super imposed their caliphate. no one supports kurdistan more than myself. but they cannot liberate those areas. they will be met with resistance from the locals. the one lesson we learned from iraq, you need sunnis to partner
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with you because you are the credible alternative. we have nothing like that right now. >> do you agree that they want the west to attack them for the reasons that michael says? >> i do. it may not be on the time line they will get. the promise that the west will attack, the promise that this will be a crusader versus muslim battle is one they like to dangle in front of recruits. that's the narrative they want to propose. if they immediately have that attack they might just lose their territory. that would be a falsification of the narrative they propose. >> we keep saying, you hear the president saying, to shrink their territory, that we need to corral them. most people say we just need to stamp them out. shrinking of their territory, is that enough? what about recruitment efforts? >> we shrunk the territory
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pretty well. >> he says containing them, right? >> he speaks of containment in a military sense but it's it's not containment when they are able to perpetrate four major terrorist attacks in the space of two months, ankara, sharm el-sheikh and paris. and now it comes back. it is easy to kick isis out of terrain. the trick is once you have done that. and how do you convince the locals who had been lorded over by isis that you come as a liberator and not as a conquerer. today, npr or voice of america had a report from sinjar and they found that any sunnis in sinjar are now marked as collaborators of isis and are going to suffer at the hands of even the yazidis. but this is the problem. you know, you need to give an
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incentive to those who are being ruled by isis to rise up and expunge them and not treat them as badly as isis treated everyone else. >> that will have to be the last word. you are hear last night and you're here always. when we come back, she was raised muslim but says islam is being used to wage war. she'll explain, next. believe it.
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ayaan hirsi ali was raised muslim but says that islam must be reformed to save it. she became a member of the dutch parliament. in 2004 she faced death threats after the murder of a man who directed her movie. and her latest book is "heretic." she joins me now. so glad to have you. how you doing? >> doing good. thank you for having me. >> these attacks shocked the world. but you have been sounding the alarm about this for years.
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>> unfortunately that's true. it's tragic. i wish -- i always say i wish i was wrong. but, yeah, i mean, the message that -- there is a utopia or where the world can be brought under the banner of islam, that is something that has been spreading for decades and decades and it's infected the hearts and minds of young people who are acting on it. >> why do you feel this way, ayaan? because you were raised a devout muslim. >> i was raised a devout muslim. and up until my mid-teens we took it for granted we were muslims. and in secondary school, i was 15, 16 at that point, this neighb narrative that it wasn't enough to be just muslim. there had to be something, you had to tell fellow muslims they
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should be pious, to tell christians to convert to islam. the world was divided into those who believe and who don't. jews became our enemies. when 9/11 happened years later, i thought that is not only of me but if i was one of those young 19 men, i would have done the same thing. >> you say the opposite of what many people who come on and who are muslims and who practice islam and they say islam is a peaceful religion. are you saying islam is not a peaceful religion? >> i'm saying there are millions of peaceful muslims and who want to live in peace, but islam as a doctrine and theology and especially in its political aspects, it is used to wage war. it is used as a tool of
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intolerance to women, gays and others. that's what i'm talking about. it is possible to turn islam into a religion of peace. but there are things -- i describe the five key points in my book. but things need to happen. muslims need to unionfy around what should change in islam. >> i want you to listen to this interview. they lost two sisters in the paris terror attacks. one of the brothers made this emotional appeal. listen. >> we are among so many victims. i would tell these people and the world to understand that there is this critical difference between whatever they preach and between the peace that we are in islam. i want to tell these people that whatever agenda they're doing, they should stop wrapping it around the blanket of islam. because the blanket of islam is
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about peace and unity and love. because that is the furthest from islam. because a muslim would not kill just for the sake of killing. especially killing woman or elderlies, or kids. >> so ayaan, what do you make of what he is saying? he is obviously in grief but he is basically saying that these people are perverting islam? >> so i acknowledge his grief. i feel his pain. but they are not perverting islam. the people who killed his relatives are invoking the quran. the question is they invoke the prophet muhammed. 1.6 billion people aspire to follow his example. did mohamed behavior in the ways they portray him? and the uncomfortable truth is yes, he did. can he be an example in that way?
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if not what should muslims do or say about it. what about jihad? what about sharia law? what about investing in life after death? these are problematic concepts in islamic history. and it is promoted not only by crazy individuals who feel disenfranchised and marginalized in europe. they have been pouring a lot of money into this narrative. and now we are seeing the world unfold in the way that they've been promoting it and they're not taking responsibility and they're not being held responsible for it. >> what do you see as the cause for the rise in radical islam and these terrorist acts? is it because of what you just
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said? >> well, the idea that the world can only be improved and islam is the solution, that idea is about, you know, at least 95 years old if i start with the sunni muslim brotherhood in response to westernization. but the idea took on hold and was spread across the world with resources, with money from oil. and i would say the key country that has pushed this is saudi arabia. they've established -- across the world. and qatar joined them and other oil-rich countries and they are facing the backlash and playing the victim card. they are not taking responsibility for the fact they pushed the narrative and destroyed whole societies and we need to hold them responsible for that. >> you think that we could have a better strategy. you say that european leaders
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must do three things to start to prevent further attacks. you say, learn from israel, address the infrastructure of indoctrination and design a new immigration policy. does this apply to the united states as well? >> i think eventually it will. you know, two decades ago, when this generation that have now turned out to be jihadis, when they were just young children, europeans failed to educate them and immerse them in the ideas of liberty and tolerance and equality and what europe is all about. the islamists were penetrating the neighborhoods saying that western civilization is about oppression and decadence. and they could see westerners complaining about western society. now i think in hindsight we need to penetrate the same neighborhoods and try and educate young citizens of free
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countries what freedom is all about and equality is all about. closing off borders, again, 20 years ago, there was no need for that. when the problem was relatively small. now the scale of the problem is so big you have to take draconian measures to try at least to bring a semblance of order into it. the united states is not where europe is. but if the united states follows the same footsteps, multicult e multiculturism and all this nonsense the united states could get there. >> let's talk about the syrian refugee question in the united states. it's different than in europe where there are tens of thousands of people crossing the border. people people have to go through a screening process up to 24 months. does that make any difference at all? >> again, i watch this with
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incred yulity. most syrians have been subjected to terror. and those who survive if they are look for help, we the united states and in europe we should offer help. but it happens after they arrive. once syrians come here if we can educate them and immerse them in the doctrine of freedom that is a different story. and when they are here 20 years from now. i think we are going to see people grateful to america and are patriotic. if not, if they are in the hands of islamists we are going to see what happened in minneapolis. a lot of somalis in minneapolis in minnesota ended up joining al shabaab in the u.s. >> ayaan hirsi ali, thank you so much. >> the latest on the manhunt for the eighth paris terror suspect.
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11:00 p.m. on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. in paris. i'm don lemon. the manhunt for the so-called eighth attacker, salah abdeslam spreading as inch from authorities confirm that abdelhamid abaaoud was killed in a police raid. meanwhile, isis releases a video threatening to conquer rome and blow up the white house. we are not showing the complete video because we don't want to give attention to their propaganda. and the fbi is watching dozens of people who they think pose the highest risk of carrying out a copy cat attack. let's get back


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