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tv   CNN Newsroom With Brooke Baldwin  CNN  December 3, 2015 11:00am-1:01pm PST

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you're watching cnn's special coverage of one of the country's dead liest massacres in our history. a disturbed husband and wife drop off their little baby, drive to a holiday party and kill 14 people. 14 people whose names we don't even know yet. some whose bodies still lie where they died. 14 people who just showed up to a work party on what should have been a normal wednesday with their colleagues and would never go home. killed at the hands of one of those colleagues is a sick tun of events that has investigators looking into a possible act of terrorism. these killers syed rizwan farook and tashfeen malik died in a a hail of police bullets meaning we may never know what drove them to murder. but law enforcement sources tell cnn that it appears the man may have been radicalized and
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communicating with terror suspects known to the fbi. standing by we have paul cruickshank. also my friend and colleague poppy harlow is live for us near the scene. we'll talk to beth of them. first, let's go to our justice correspondent evan perez who has more on what sources are saying about the gunman's possible ties to terror. evan, what do you know? >> we do know that law enforcement officials do believe that there are indications that syed rizwan farook was ral call liez ed -- cad call liezed. that doesn't explain everything. they still believe there might be some indication of a workplace motive. some kind of workplace beef that may have triggered or played a role in what happened yesterday. some kind of hybrid explanation. we know that officials have found indications that he was in touch with and had
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communications with at least one terrorism suspect, somebody who was being looked at by the fbi and the fbi was already investigating and there was communications over the phone and social media that are being analyzed to try to figure out whether or not that play ed a role in this radicalization and what occurred yesterday. they are looking at some overseas communications. they don't know whether that indicates that anybody was ordering what happened yesterday to occur. there's no indication of that yet. we don't know of any international terrorism links, but that's something the fbi is trying to chase down skpuns how that fits in. the thing that the fbi is making sure they do is not foreclosure any possibilities. we know that they found, for instance, some kind of home made bomb lab. they found backpack at the scene of the first shooting. and apparently this is where he made these bombs.
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this is something he rigged together a remote control car and was intended to detonate yesterday and did not happen. these are all the pieces of the fbi is putting together. indications of radicalization is what has moved the president to make this an fbi investigation because there are indications this is where this is going. >> so that was evan perez. paul cruickshank, let me bring you, our cnn terrorism analyst. when we're hearing that this shooter may have been considered radicalized, what does that really mean? >> well, it suggests that he had become at some point in some way an extremism. that's what they are suggesting here that he was radicalized by this ideology, this world view
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that terrorist groups have been propagating this distorted interpretation of islam, which justifies these kind of acts of violence. i think that's what we're talking about here when it comes to radicalization. what's not clear is the degree to which the full part of the motivation. . it appears there was a blended motivation that this was partly perhaps some kind of personal grudge against colleagues. because he could have gone and shot up a shopping mall or sports arena and killed more people, but he chose to target his colleagues, some kind of blend between that and a political objective. we have seen those blended motivations in the past. we saw that in oklahoma in september of 2014 where there was a beheading of a female cowork er at a food processing plant right after a man was fire ed. he put bin laden pictures on his
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facebook page. we saw that blended motivation in france of june of this year where a delivery worker who had a grudge against his boss beheaded his boss and put his decapitated head on the fence of a chemical plant, which he then tried to blow up and took a selfie and isn't it to isis. so we have seen these blended motivations in the past where it's a little bit of one and a little bit of the other. that would have seemed to be what we're seeing here as well. >> here is one of the things that scares me. when you hear the police chief talk about the thousands of rounds of ammunitions these two had whether it was on themselves, tactical vests , in the car, in the home, the preparations not -- neither of them on anyone's radar. not a single one. how do you prevent something like this then? >> there's a very short answer and it is you cannot prevent all of these kind of attacks.
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very difficult if the person is really not on the radar screen. it appears from what we're hearing that he was on the edge of the radar screen because they were aware of some contacts with people that they had under investigation, but only on the edge of the radar screen. not a priority or part of instigations from the fbi perspective. but he managed to get all these weapons and ammunition over the years and that's something that al qaeda and other groups have been trying to encourage. they have been saying take advantage of lax gun laws in the united states by international standards, go out and buy a gun, the most powerful weapons you can find and launch as monuch n carnage as you can. the pipe bombs were recovered in the garage. a black powder type of powder is quite similar to what al qaeda
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in yemen put out in june 2010 in "inspire" magazine of how to build a bomb in your mom's kitchen. they have photos of that kind of device. the fbi say they are investigating whether he learned how to do this from that same magazine, brooke. >> that was the same article we were talking about in boston and how they were automobile to put the pressure cooker bombs together. it's all at your fingertips on the internet. thank you, paul cruickshank. right now, the bodies of some of these victims are still inside the scene of that shooting in san bernardino. that's where poppy harlow is not too far from that shooting location. poppy, to you. >> reporter: brooke, it's chilling to be here to look at the sign of the building that so many people walked in every day just to go to work. they were celebrating the holidays yesterday when all this happened.
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it's still an active crime scene. some of the bodies, we were told, still have not been removed. and this is because those forensic teams are combing through the carnage inside. a center that serves people that are developmentally challenged. that's what was attacked and police talking a short time ago about what they saw inside. >> the suspects when they entered fired 65 and 75 rounds from their rifles at the scene. we did locate the one pipe bomb that was combined into one that had a remote control car or device that appears to have not worked in this case. there were also four high capacity rifle magazines that were dropped by the suspects and left in there as evidence that have been recovered. i can confirm that the suspects were wearing the block-style
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tactical gear that we talked about yesterday. they were not wearing ballistic vests. what they did have and what people may have confused is tactical-style vests that held kwumt and ammunition. >> at the end of the massacre, the husband and wife team fired up to 75 rounds killing 14, injuring 21 others. as they did that, hundreds of other workers heard the echo of gunfire and feared for their lives, feared they may take the next bullet. they barricaded themselves inside rooms and hid under tables and sent texts and terrified messages to loved ones, chilling cell fen video showing the moment these people were rescued. >> thank you, thank you. >> relax, relax. i'll take a bullet before you do, just be cool. >>. as for the people that did not
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make it out of the building, it has been nearly 24 hours. still officials have not released their names. they told us moments ago they will start releasing the names a little later today. i want to go straight to victor blackwell at the second crime scene. you are right outside the suspect's home. that's where i was late last night. we saw tons and tons of police vehicles around. we have learned so much since then about these 12 pipe bombs, about what law enforcement sources are tell iing evan pere was something like a homemade bomb lab in the home? >> reporter: yeah, and we're seeing some of the work now starting to begin. outside the home. the fbi has been here throughout the morning. but take a look over my shoulder here. some of the members of the evidence response team now setting up their canopy and the tables will then be set up where they start to collect, identify, photograph, process some of the
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evidence that comes outside of this town home. we heard from the l.a. office that some of the evidence will have to leave this area to be identified and analyzed outside of this area. but you're right, that discovery of 12 pipe bombs and materials to make more addition to thousands of rounds of ammunition for both the 223 ammunition and also a 9 millimeter as well for the semi au automac handguns. there will also be the collection of the digital information. we saw today the regional computer forensics lab workers here collecting information. we know that they potentially collected laptops and thumb drives and cell phones to find out if there were people outside of this community, outside of just this family who were part of this attack. poppy? >> victor, thank you very much outside of that home that they lived in before they carried out
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this horrific attack. brooke, back to you in new york. >> thank you, standby, we'll be talking to you momentarily. i will speak with an eyewitness who was working across the street around this time yesterday from that center. heard the gunshots ringing out. we'll talk to him. so much more in the next two hours. live from san bernardino, keep it here. you're watching cnn's special live coverage.
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♪ most weekends only last a couple of days. some last a lifetime. hampton. we go together. always get the lowest price, only when you book direct at hampton.com i want to get to the center and i was walking and this lady and a couple others heard shots. but then i started walking and i got into chaos. >> as soon as the gunfire
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started, everyone dropped to the floor and they were underneath desks and. she was trying to shield herself with a chair with the man next o to her. and then she saud she felt it go in through her back and the shooters weren't in there too long and they were able to get him out quickly. >> it became surreal when we had to lock ourself in the conference room and not get out until law enforcement said that it was okay to leave the building. i was just in disbelief. i called my kids and said if something happens to me, there's a a shooting here, just be safe. what else can i do? >> what else can i do, some of the voices we're hearing in the wake of the shootings in san bernardino. today we heard from the police chief yet again that the shooters fired up to 75 rounds of ammunition. witnesses nearby could not only hear those shots, but felt their offices shaking. i want to bring in glen
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willworth, he was across the street in an office building when he started hearing some of these shots. thank you for joining me today. >> sure. >> it was right around this time yesterday. can can you begin with how did you know something was wrong? >> it kind of all played out because my office window actually faces the inland regional center. i was in my office and i dmoetsed somebody run by my window very quickly. and i didn't know what that was about. i didn't know what to expect, but i raced up to the front door to meet the person because i didn't know what was going on. as soon as he came in, i saw the shear look of panic on his face and he just replied they are shooting everybody. so i told everybody to lock down the building and told the guy to
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stay there and hunker down. i grabbed my side arm and i went out and i could hear the shots being fired. so i started heading towards where i heard the shots coming from. >> so you left your building? >> yes. >> so you're going toward the shots? >> yeah, that's correct. i've got employees that all have families. i wanted to make sure it didn't travel to my location. so i decided to go set up my own perimeter. so i kind of hunkered down by a water truck that was filling up at a fire hydrant. u could still hear them
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shooting. i knew the direction, i knew where they were, but i couldn't see them. there was a lot of trees there. but i knew the exact area they were in because it was very distinct. so i heard about another 10 or 15 shots go off. then it went kind of silent. i saw a lot of people scattering and leaving the area, but something caught my attention. it was a slow-moving person. but i couldn't really make them t. they were behind the trees and they just went and got into a black suv and started to pull away very slow. not in a hurry at all. i immediately thought to myself whoever just did that is probably in this suv right now. so they started to head away. u couldn't see inside the vehicle. i have no idea what was going on, but i knew it was high powered shots i was hearing and
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all i had was a side arm so i decided to stay where i was at. they did start to drive towards me and as soon as i saw they were about 25 yards away from me, i unholstered my gun and did point at them, which was really irritating to have a gun for 20 years and never have to do something like that and you get some people that put you in the position to have to live with something like that. that's just ridiculous to me. >> so you never ended up firing at this vehicle? both of the suspects ended up leaving in a black suv and were killed in a massive shootout with police in a neighborhood. but as you were there, did you talk at all then with the people who had been just terrified inside the building who we watched yesterday with their hands up trying to seek safety?
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>> yes, i did speak with some while the suv was pulling away from the area. i was telling everybody to get down and hide behind cars and everything. but when it changed direction from coming towards me and went away from my build. ing and exited out the rear, i still didn't know exactly what was going on. so i stayed where i was for a couple more minutes until the police arrived. and then the first police came in and immediately started helping some people hiding by some vehicles and then the second vehicle came racing in and i aggressively flagged him down and made sure he came up to me and gave him a description of the vehicle and told him i didn't know who or what was in it but gave them the direction they left in. >> glen, you haven't even gone home. you have remained at your
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workplace with another employee. i will let you go. thank you so much. i don't know if police would love to hear how close you got to all of this yesterday, but nevertheless, heroes were incredible on the scene. thank you so much for your perspective. i'm glad you're all right. >> sure, thank you. >> coming up next, we still do not know the answer to the question, why. what was their motivation for this couple to drop off their 6-month-old baby to go on that shooting rampage. we'll talk with someone who has seen this type of thing before. he wrote a book on mass shooters and police training. he will join me next. i'm brooke baldwin, you're watching cnn's special live coverage. for every family.snow globe and this year, look at what he put in our driveway. the lexus december to remember sales event is here. lease the 2016 es350 for $349 a month for 36 months and we'll make your first month's payment. see your lexus dealer.
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a shooting in california, much of it is about the people and the victims. we'll talk a lot about that as soon as we know more about them. in the meantime, numbers, learning new numbers. 14 killed, 21 injured, 2 shooters. what we don't know is why. what motivated a man and husband wife to drop off their 6-month-old baby girl with a grandmother and end the day and their lives in a shootout with police. joining me now is a criminal justice professor at texas state university and executive director for the advanced law enforcement rapid response training center at texas state. pete, you wrote the book on active shooter events and response. so thank you so much for joining me today. >> thanks for having me on. >> there's so much that baffles me about what happened in san bernardino, but i think part of the top of the list is the fact that not only it was a lone shooter, but it was him and his wife. it's rare you have a female involved in this thing.
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nevertheless, a young child that they had that they dropped off at a family member's home as they went off on this rampage. that has to surprise you. >> yeah, it is unusual. we've seen some female active shooters in the past, but it's a very small percentage, less than a 5% of the shooters we have seen, dropping the kid off at the relative's house, i have never seen that happen before. it would suggest that they felt that they weren't coming back. >> when you hear some of the details pr the police chief talking about the thousands of rounds of ammunition they had, tactical vests, pipe bombs found, black powder, hundreds of tools at the home that could be used to build ieds, potential radicalization, what sort of picture is that paint iing for you? >> well, for me, that paints a premeditated attack. it looks like a terrorist-related event from the
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radicalization information they are talking about now. while people are talking about some kind of incident at the actual party beforehand. it's clear they were planning some type of event for some period of time in order to have a bomb-making factory and acquire all the equipment they had with them. >> and still, even though perhaps one of their associates was being investigated by the fbi related to terrorism, these two, they were not on one radar. >> well, there are a lot of potential suspects to track for the fbi right now. i don't know exactly how they didn't pick this one up or if they had them in some other capacity on the radar in some way, but there are a lot of people to track right now. >> what about police? it's incredible how quickly they converged upon the scene yesterday. multiple jurisdictions working together. more than 70,000 law enforcement
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professionals have been trained through your active shooter response program. columbine changed the way these situations have been handled. what's so key for officers when they come upon a situation like in san bernardino? >> well, the first phase is always to stop the killing. the officers need to make sure there's not continuing gunfire going on and more people aren't being kiel killed. the first priority is to get into the building, find the shooter and deal with the sho shooter if the shooter is still there. after the shooter is taken care of or done an initial look for the shoot er and don't find anyone, the next operation is stop the dying. people have been wounded and need medical care and so many give that care as quickly as we can and that involves police officers providing care themselves and also providing security to allow ems and fire units to come in and provide higher levels of care than the officers can provide.
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then trying to transport the patients out as quickly as possible. >> with all the mass shootings and police response and everything that you know about, i'm sure you teach about there in texas, if you could change something to help prevent these mass shootings, what would it be? >> well, there are two things that are important. we rarely see these events are spontaneous. they tend to be the result of a long downward slide. we have somebody who's angered by something and become angrier. they enter this downward spiral and start to plan an attack and launch an attack. and often times like in this last case, they attack places they are connected to in some way, shape or form. and that suggests an alert workplace or school could detect this person early on in the downward spiral and intervene before it gets to the point of the attack.
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the second thing is we know that a a fair number of shooters are motivated by a desire for fame or notoriety, that sort of thing. when we cover these stories and focus on the shooters and put their whole life histories up there and talk about their backgrounds and histories, often times we give them exactly what they want. what we have been encouraging people to do is not focus on the shooters, focus on the heroes, the victims, the community, things the community can do to protect themselves so that you're not rewarding the shooter for bad behavior. >> understand, i have sat in this chair way too many times having to cover these stories as they happen to break during these two hours. i hear you loud and clear. i agree with you on focusing on the heros and victims as well. thank you so much for your time. i do appreciate it. just quickly, let me toss to this. we have heard from the u.s. attorney general loretta lynch addressing the shooting in
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california. she was speaking just moments ago. here she was. >> i know, like all of us, have the horrific events of san bernardino at the top of your mind. let me take a medicine before we begin today's announcement to address that shooting briefly. as has been stated earlier to y today, the fbi is now taken a leadership role in that investigation working in conjunction with state and local law enforcement who have been truly outstanding partners in this enterprise as well as working with the atf and u.s. marshal service. as this investigation unfolds, we intend to provide any and all assistance necessary to both local authorities and most importantly to the people of san bernardino, who have been so profoundly affected by this unspeakable crime. as i stated earlier this morning, i know that i stand with all americans when i say that my thoughts and prayers and those of my colleagues at every level of the department of justice are with the families of the victims and with the brave public safety officials who put
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themselves in harm's way to save others. and now, moving on to today's announcement. >> so topping the announcement with thoughts on what's happened in san bernardino. that was the attorney general loretta lynch. we'll take you back to san bernardino, california and poppy harlow who will be speaking to a e member of the homeland security committee, who represents california. we'll talk to her, next. i'm being told live pictures of the suspect's town home. we'll be right back. (vo) what's your dog food's first ingredient? corn? wheat? in new purina one true instinct grain free, real chicken is always #1. no corn, wheat or soy. support your active dog's whole body health with purina one. quiet! mom has a headache! had a headache! but now, i...don't excedrin® is fast. in fact for some, relief starts in just 15 minutes. excedrin®. now available in geltabs.
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i'm poppy harlow reporting
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live from san bernardino. you're looking at live helicopter shots, aerial views, very clear picture of what is believed to be the suspect's home in california. it appears that those fbi agents are removing items from the garage of this town home. you'll remember that is where the chase ensued last night in the black suv resulting in the shootout and the death of those two suspects that apparently lived in this home. what they are removing from the garage, we just simply don't know at this point in time. we're expecting a police press conference a little later today. we should find out a lot more then. i'm standing at the scene of yesterday's horrific massacre inside of the inland regional center. 14 people were killed. we know the number of injured has risen to 21. some of them still hospitalized, some in critical condition. the shooters were husband and wife. they were killed by police in a massive shootout. the wife is from pakistan.
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her husband, who worked for san bernardino county, who was a resident and city employee here, was born in the united states, born in illinois. today cnn has learned authorities say it appears the husband syed rizwan farook had been radicalized. what we don't know for certain is if that radicalization contributed to the deadly attack that unfolded here on wednesday morning. joining me to talk more about that is california congresswoman loretta sanchez, a democrat running for the senate. she's a senior member on the armed services committee. thank you for being here. i think you offer important perspective because your constituents make up the second largest arab and muslim populatipo population in the united states. you have seen an increase in islamophobia. >> especially since the attacks in paris. we have seen a real hesitancy to
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go about their business. realize that the majority of these people that want to be here in america, they are american citizens, their children are born here, they have actually worked with us is so ferret out people who might do us harm. so today our hearts are incredibly heavy at the way that they are going to be painted once again because of this. we're scared. americans are seeing this over and over again. especially that has to do with this radicalization. >> i almost can't believe i'm standing here less than two weeks after i was just in paris covering a horrific, deadly attack. when you look at this situation, i'm wondering what intelligence you can share with us because law enforcement sources have told evan perez and pamela brown that syed rizwan farook was radicalize
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radicalized. we don't know when or where. he traveled to saudi arabia in 2013. many practicing muslims do that. from an intelligence perspective, do you know anything more? >> those things that i know, i wouldn't be able to put out into >> but you have learned more? >> i will tell you that it seems to me, and there's a lot of speculation going on. that's one of the reasons we saw the live feed of our officers going into the home and taking out the information, taking out what they've got, taking what is actually there, the forensic footprint as well as what was going on by e-mail, by text, e et cetera on the devices of these two people. so there's more information known, but certainly none that we are sharing a at this point because the way i look at it, it looks to me to be an incident where if all of this was going on at this home, if it was stockpiling, if he had been radicalized, which i can't say
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yes or no to that, this was not most likely the trigger of what they were going to do. this was an emotional ly -- >> all right, it sounds like our signal there with the congresswoman and poppy harlow went out. we'll work on getting them back up. let me show you what we're looking at. this is from our l.a. affiliate. i can't tell. it looks like a garage. this is some sort of town home or perhaps even a storage unit that was adjacent to the home where the shooting suspects. let's be precise. we don't know if they live there. this is where they found thousands of rounds of ammunition, according to the san bernardino police chief. but their names were on the rental agreement. pictures of one of their cars. looks like those are fbi agents there on the ground taking a closer look at the car. they are looking at the digital
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imprints, their computers trying to figure out the answer to the question why. want to make sure we're focusing on the victims of this tragedy and the terrifying firsthand accounts as witnesses describe the chaos and utter horror of the scene there as it happened. more on that, next. if you qualify for a sittingham's card today i can offer you no interest for 24 months. thanks to the tools and help at experian.com,
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i know i have an 812 fico score, so i definitely qualify. so what else can you give me? same day delivery. the ottoman? thank you. fico scores are used in 90% of credit decisions. so get your credit swagger on. go to experian.com, become a member of experian credit tracker, and take charge of your score. i think when people hear about. i think it's important for, everyone to know that there is so much more to memory support than the stigmas you hearabout. that these residents still have lives and their lives still matter and that they are still living their lives. that they're not locked away and that they still have a lot to live for, you know, that they have people that care
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about them and they have people that love them and i love them, so their lives still matter. that is what i do this for.
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24 hours later in san bernardino it is still an active
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crime scene. officials have been working to remove the bodies of those ki killed in that facility. we heard from the police chief saying they hope to release the names at some point today. also during the news conference shs the police chief raised the number of injured from 17 to 21. of that number, ten are still in the hospital. keep in mind, two are police officers themselves. dan simon is standing outside the regional medical center in california where some of the injured are being treated. let's not forget sanjay was mentioning it was that hospital that was on lockdown at some point in time. let's begin with the survivors. how are they? >> reporter: well, brooke, we just received positive news from the hospital about the victims who are here. of the five victims who are at this particular hospital, all five of them are in stable condition. that's pretty remarkable when you consider what some of these victims had to go through. i want to tell you about one of them. he's 24-year-old kevin ortiz.
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his family doesn't want us use ing his photo, but they are okay with us talking about his condition. he works as an environmentalist for the county. he was at the group function. he was shot several times. i have to tell you he is doing extremely well considering taking all these gunshots. his aunt explains in vivid detail what he had to endure. >> he was sitting down with several co-workers and there was a break and several people stepped out into the hallway. he heard gunfire, but wasn't sure if it was gunfire. he assume d it was a drill of some kind. the doors opened and he saw two masked people dressed in black and he still thought it was a drill. he felt his first shot on his leg, but he said it felt more like someone just threw
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something at him. it wasn't sharp pain immediately until a few seconds later. and then he ended up sustaining another shot on the shoulder. so his reaction then was this is real. let me get under the table. so he got under the table and according to kevin, the gunman came back and shot him again. >> how many times was he shot? >> five times. >> did he think he was going to die? >> absolutely. that was one of his thoughts that he shared with us. he was able to make two phone calls. one to his wife and one to his father. and to both of them, he said that he had been shot, but he was going to be okay and he loved them. >> brooke, we heard other stories like that. people who in the midst of being shot, grabbed their cell phones and called family members with what they thought were going to be good-bye messages.
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it's going to be a difficult time over the next several days. you're going to have many surgeries, but hopefully there will be many recoveries. brooke? >> of the lives lost heading into the holiday season, feeling for the family members there in san bernardino. dan simon, thank you for the update from the medical center. come k up next, the president of the united states addressing yet another mass shooting. an address he's had to make far too many times. we'll have that for you. also ahead, we're learn iin today about the possible radicalization of the shooter as investators are digging and sorting through his home. stay with me, you're watching cnn's special live coverage. let's celebrate these moments... this woman... this cancer patient... christine... living her life... loving her family. moments made possible in part by the breakthrough science of advanced genomic testing. after christine exusted the standard treatment options for her disease, doctors working with the center for advanced individual medicine at
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>> > yesterday a tragedy occurred
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in san bernardino. as i said in the immediate aftermath, our first order of business is to send our thoughts and prayers to the families of those who have been killed. >> the president speaking earlier today reacting to this mass shooting in san bernardino, california. this has obviously been all too familiar for president obama. he's made at least 12 of these sorts of speeches over the course of his presidency. here's a look back. >> we have a pathe pattern now mass shootings in this country that has no parallel anywhere else in the world. and there are steps we could take not to eliminate every one of these mass shootings, but to improve the odds that they don't happen. >> i have had to make statements like this too many times. communities have had to endure tragedies like this too many times. >> we come together filled with sorrow for the 13 americans that
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we have lost. with gratitude for the lives that they led and with a determination to honor them through the work we carry on. >> i have come here tonight as an american who like all americans to pray with you today and will stand but you tomorrow. >> and the federal government stands ready to do whatever is necessary to bring whoever is responsible for this heinous crime to justice. >> all of us are heartbroken by what's happened and i offered the thoughts and. prayers not only myself and michelle but of the country as a whole. >> and each time i learn the news, i react not as a president but as anybody else would, as a parentally in the hard days to come, that community needs us to be at our best as americans and i will do everything in my power as president to help.
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>> the lives that were taken from us were unique. the memories their loved ones carry are unique and they will carry them and endure long after the news cameras are gone. >> any shooting is trouble iing. obviously, this reopens the pain of what happened at fort hood five years ago. >> the country has to do some soul searching a about this. this is becoming the norm. and we take it for granted in ways that as a parent are terrifying to me. >> the good news is i'm confident that the outpouring of unity and strength and fe fellowship and love across charleston today indicates the degree to which those hold vestiges of hatred can be overcome. >> each time this happens i'm going to bring this up. each time this happens i'm going
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to say that we can actually do something about it, but we're going to have to change our laws. we continue on here on cnn. thank you for being with me, i'm brooke baldwin. hour two of coverage of this murder, that even the fbi is calling not your average investigation. this depraved husband and wife duo, these killers drop off their baby, drive to a holiday party and murder 14 people. and now it a appears the man behind this bloody massacre may have been radicalized communicating with terror suspects on the fbi's radar. what we know is this. 14 innocent lives were stolen. 14 people whose names we do not yet know and some whose bodies still lie where they were shot and killed. 14 people who just showed up to work, wanted to kbo to a holiday party with their colleagues and
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would never go home. as freorensic teams comb throug their home, a center that services the developmentally challenged in this community, police are now telling us these details as far as what they're finding. >> the suspects when they entered fired somewhere between 65 and 75 rounds from their rifles at the scene. we did locate the one pipe bomb that was combined into one that had a remote car device that appears to have not worked in this case. there were also four high capacity rifle magazines that were dropped by the suspects and left in there as evidence that have been recovered. i can confirm that the suspects were wearing the block-style tactical gear that we talked about yesterday. they were not wearing ballistic
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vests. what they did have is tactical-style vests that held kwumt and magazines and ammunition. >> at the end of this mass shooting at this time yesterday, the husband and wife fired up to 75 rounds. back at their home where they rented, one thing issing clear. they were planning for something big. police are shocked to find this makeshift bomb lab. hundreds of bomb-making tools, thousands of rounds of ammunition. poppy harlow is standing by for us live adjacent to that center where the shooting took place. first, i want to bring in victor black well, who is at an additional crime scene. this is the suspect's home. also with us here at the top of the hour is bob baer, intelligence and security analyst and former cia operative. great to have all of you on.
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victor, i want you to start. we have been looking at this aerial footage of what looks like fbi in the back of perhaps a storage unit or garage area. can you walk me through what's happening on that property right now? >> certainly. in the middle of a quiet neighborhood, all of this is happening. outside near the front door, the evidence response teams are collecting evidence, bringing it outside, processing it under a blue canopy here, taking photographs, identifying, numbering. some of those things will be processed locally. some, as we heard from the l.a. office of the fbi, will have to leave this area for analysis. we know that there have also been computer forensics laboratory workers here collecting thumb drives, cell phones, other electronic information to get an answer to the question why did this happen and who else was involved. for the people who live in this community, and i'm sure people who are hearing this across the
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country and around the world, the discovery of those 12 pipe bombs inside the home, the hundreds of bomb-making tools, an effective laboratory to crank out these bombs. 2500 bullets, even more bullets here. effectively the question of premeditation or planning is out the window. the question now people are waiting to hear an answer to is if these two people were prepare ing for an opportunity or if they were preparing for this opportunity as we wait to get more information about what they know that went into the planning of the massacre that took place here in san bernardino yesterday. >> victor, what about the car out front as well? >> reporter: the car out front, there's a black sedan that's just outside. when we arrived very early this it morning, it was about 1:00 a.m. local time, the hood was up, the trunk was up, doors opened, and our crews watched
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bomb technicians search the vehicle overnight in full tactical gear after finding those 12 pipe bombs inside. of course, they searched the vehicle outside. now, there's been no clarity from law enforcement officials if there was anything found inside the car, but we know that that was searched. also no confirmation if that car belonged to the couple. we also know the black suv involved in the shootout yesterday was a rental and was actually supposed to be returned yesterday. so that possibly could add to the conversation of if it was planned for this specific holiday party. >> victor blackwell, thank you. bob baer, let me bring you in. here's what's key here. i'm just glancing down at our reporting. their law enforcement say it appears this male killer was radicalized. some of the details, he was in touch with more than one
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terrorism subject who the fbi was already investigating according to other law enforcement officials. a separate u.s. government official said he had overseized communications and associations that they are now really looking into. when we hear the word radicalized, what does that truly mean? >> well, there are a couple things here. one, the tactics used in the attack. they clearly were trained in some way. this was a military assault. i can go through delaying the police with a fake pipe bomb and the rest of it and the two guns and the fact e he brought his wife. you always want to bring two shooters to one of these things. now it comes out that he's been in saudi arabia. that country at the street level is very radicalized, as is pakistan and the fact that the metadata they are digging up after the attack shows that these connections were in place before the attack tells me that this is an about of
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international terrorism. we may never know what inspired them to shoot at that particular target and what they were going to do next, but what convinced them to turn to bloodshed, but i think it's fairly safe to classify this as international terrorism. >> now, to the point you say these kinds of situations you want to bring someone else. but to me, when we cover these mass shootings, which continue to happen here in this country, often times it's one deranged individual. now that we know that there was this woman involved and there was an additional bit of premeditation that they left their child with a grandmother, that, to me, really struck me. >> they were determined. they were believers. they were committed to what they were doing. as faulty as that is, they were committed. they were willing to die and that tells me they were seeking martyrism. if you have police cars chasing and you open up fire, you are going to die. they wanted to die.
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>> they were on no one's radar. >> there's thousands and thousands of people on fbi radar, but the fbi does not have the authority if there's a suspicion to knock your door down and take a look around they could never get a warrant. everybody who expresses a desire to commit violence is under surveillance of some sort and visited and even warrants. but these people were flying under the radar. it's difficult for the fbi with the authorities they have to roll all these people up. this is not an intelligence failure. it's something entirely different. >> so incredibly troubling, bob baer, thank you. victor blackwell, thank you. let's go to poppy harlow, standing by outside that place that helps so many people in these communities here and now still a crime scene, poppy.
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>> reporter: absolutely, it's sort of surreal to drive by a place that looks like so many other places in america where you would go to work each and every day which is what people were doing yesterday when thaerp attacked. not just the first responders rushed towards this danger. average people ran towards the danger to help the victims. i have one of those men with me. thank you r for being here. come on in. >> thank you for having me. >>. take me back to 24 hours ago. why did you run to help when everyone else ran away? >> i love this city. we came here with a heart to serve our community. it was natural for me to literally when we found out about it in our staff meeting to get into the vehicle and get as close as we could get and walk the rest of the way to get to the scene. we were a part of the first ones that were there after the incident happened to be able to offer prayer and counsel to those. >> even if they are not physically wound, just need to
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know someone like you is there. you saw a lot of horrific things. tragedy you'll never forget. but you also saw something beautiful in a reunion that happened in front of your eyes. >> we connected with a lady who couldn't find her family members. we prayed with her there. shh saw three buss come in, but her family member wasn't in tlp peshe was upset because she wand to see them and felt that was to tell her they didn't survive. >> when you look at this city and you look at the
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congresswoman on last hour and told me in her orange county she's seen an inkres in islamophobia. what's your reaction? >> i'm concerned about it. >> we begin to drop everyone in the same bucket because they have a similar belief system. not all muslims are radicalists. they all operate i hope this is an eye opening time to figure out more strategies to protect ourselves. >> how is your community doing? i. >> think our community is come ing back to the top. i think we're receiving the hope and the joy that we need to have even in the midst of this crazy thing that's happened. >> we all stand with you. thank you very much for sharing that it moment from such tragedy. >> brooke, back to you. >> can you imagine the pastor waiting with that woman, bus after bus and finally her loved one is safe. poppy, thank you so much. thanks to the pastor. coming up next, police are
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describing this extnsive bomb lab at the killer's home. thousands of rounds of bullets. a a house littered with pipe bombs and materials to build bombs. it kept police from entering. we'll speak live with an explosive expert about what this means for the investigation and how they pulled this off. also we'll take you to the hospital where some of the individuals who were injured are being treated at this moment. stay with me. toto the nation's capitalut to support an important cause that can change the way you live for years to come. how can you help? by giving a little more, to yourself. i am running for my future. people sometimes forget to help themselves. the cause is retirement, and today thousands of people came to race for retirement and pledge to save an additional one percent of their income. if we all do that we can all win. prudential bring your challenges®
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they rush ed into my front door seeking shelter saying they are shooting everybody. >> you are watching cnn, i'm brooke baldwin. the day after this rampage in san bernardino, california, when it comes to the details of this investigation, there are some numbers i want you to hear directly from the san bernardino police chief. >> the suspects are believed to
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have fired about 76 rifle rounds at the officers at the termination of the pursuit. 76 is our number that we have right now. however, on their person and in the vehicle, they had over 1400 rounds that were available to them. they had over 200 9 millimeter rounds available as well. >> they left three devices behind at the scene packed with black powder and rigged with a toy car. at the home they were renting, authorities found 12 pipe bombs and hundreds of tools that could be used to build ieds and pipe bombs. let me bring in two explosive exper
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experts. so gentlemen, thank you for your time today. and anthony, let me begin with you. the device that was left at the scene, the three pipe bombs all with this remote control car, more pipe bombs found at the home. what are you hearing from your sources about these these tools mean, level of sophistication, you tell me. >> good afternoon, brooke. what i'm hearing about the device left at the shooting scene was really a crude rudimentary device. three metal pipes taped together with a remote control car using a propellant that hasn't been identified yet, but mostpowder. and the remote control portion of the car was set up to initiate the device. it's unclear whether they tried to initiate and it failted to
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function or a design flaw. >> i was talk to paul cruickshank, one of our terrorism analysts last hour. he was saying specifically on the black powder and whatever that was related to, that contraption it reminded him of an article from "inspire" magazine from a couple years ago. you also pointed out something else reminded you pr that magazine as well, yes? >> that's correct. the 12th issue of "inspire" magazine that came out in march of 2014 came out and talked about using remote car vehicles to initiate devices. they also talked about using these smokeless powders to initiate them. and as well as the types of pipes to be used. and we saw similar types of information coming out that was used in the boston marathon
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bombing from "inspire" magazine. so it's possibly where this individual got his information. not saying that he's affiliated with al qaeda and those who put out this magazine, but he probably got the information pr there because it's an online source. >> the fbi is looking into that. the fbi is being clear they haven't concluded if this was workplace violence or terrorism. it appear this is male was radicalized. rick, to you, listening to the fbi very closely in the latest news brief. they said they flew in a team to reenact the crime scene and are going to fly the evidence back to a lab in washington for an expedited analysis. can you walk me through how both of those will work. >> they are going to be pain staking in their analysis of every piece of evidence that comes out of the two crime scenes. the site where the confrontation with police occurred as well as
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any place these folks may have lived. they are going to bring out forensics teams and experts in different fields, explosives, electronics, they are going to digital exploitation of the computers in any digital media these folks may have utilized and try to reconstruct everything these folks have done going back as far as possible. a lot of this investigation is also going to take place overseas. there are ties to pakistan, saudi arabia, so the legalities in those countries are going to be incredibly busy working very closely with the intelligence services and law enforcement agencies in those kocountries. then if there are any other areas that these folks touched on through family and friends and their social network, those leads are going to be pushed out so that the bureau and the rest of law enforcement engaged in this investigation can get a full picture of what led to the
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horrific events of yesterday. >> pain staking process leaving no stone unturned. we have been looking at pictures. this is where the shootout occurred. but these are aerial photos of what looks like to be a garage. so we know that law enforcement are on the ground going through cars and this garage. how careful do law enforcement and fub need to be here, what are they looking for? >> well, they have to be very careful. that occurred last night. my sources are telling me that they took their time entering this it house in the middle of the night just to ensure that it's safe so the forensic teams can be back there this morning. >> it's happening right now. we're looking at it. >> they are going through it now, but the scene was made safe last night by the bomb technician and the other agents working there. and these forensic teams are going through and collect iing
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anything and everything they can that's associated with this crime. it's been reported that there's components there to make additional bombs. it has also been reported there were 12 additional pipe bombs. i'm not sure if that's been verified, but there's a lot of forensic value in this house. and i'm not going to be surprised if the forensic evidence doesn't lead to other people involved in this whole event. >> police chief mentioned they will be looking at other people and he verified the pipe bombs in that home, a treasure-trove of evidence there as you know. thank you both. so much. coming up next, we have been hearing heroing stories about the folks who survived the shooting. 21 in total injured. 14 killed. we'll take you live to one of the hospitals, which some of them are being treated and get an update on their conditions, next. are you on medicare?
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bottom of the hour, you're watching cnn, i'm brooke baldwin. the grim task of identifying the victims of this latest mass shooting is underway in san bernardino, california. we can tell you that authorities are work ing ing to thoet if i families of the 14 people killed. we are expecting those names to be released later today. that's what we heard from the police chief not too long ago. we did learn today as well from the chief the number of injured grew from 17 to 21. so boris sanchez has a photo of the first victim and will learn more in a moment. dan simon, you are outside one
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of the medical centers treating some of those who were injured. what's an update on those survivors there? >> reporter: well, of the five people brought to this particular hospital, all five are in stable condition. that's remarkable when you consider what some of them had to go through. one of the victims who is being treated here is 24-year-old kevin ortiz. he works as an environmentalist for the county. he was in the bang wet hall and this is how his aunt described what he had to go through. >> the doors open and he saw two mask ed people dressed in black. he still thought it was a drill. he felt his first shot on his leg, but he said it felt more like someone just threw something at him. it wasn't really sharp pain immediately until a few seconds later. then he ended up sustaining another shot on his shoulder. so his reaction then this is real. let me get under the table.
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so he got under the table and according to kevin, the gunman came back and shot him again. >> reporter: kevin was able to pick up his cell phone and call his relatives and say he loved them. he was calling to say good-bye. we have heard other stories like that. people who thought they were going to die and called loved ones. you have five more hospitals with victims. thankfully all of the vick items who were taken to various hospitals are going to survive. >> that's excellent news, thank you for the update. now to the grim side of the story here with boris sanchez. as we have been reporting, 14 people murdered this time yesterday. we now have an image of one of the victims. >> we have been able to confirm this moments ago. one of the deceased is an older man and found his facebook
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profile. a family member saying he worked for the department of health. he was very religious. there were several bible quotes on his facebook page and notes of condolence from friends and loved ones. he has two sons. they are too distraught to speak to the media. the reason it's been hard to get names is officials revealed that during the shooting a a spri sprinkler went off and flooded a room that people were inside. it took so much time for the room to be drained out for the sprinkler system to be shut off in that phase that ied was discovered so the bomb squad was sent in. technicians took a long time to clear the campus. they then had to contact the families of the deceased. we're still waiting to get full confirmation from police. we have several names that have been passed along by family members and friends. however, out of respect to their
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families because we don't have confirmation that all the family has been notified, we're not releasing those names. i. >> the police chief said they are hoping to release most of the names at some point today. have all the bodies been removed? >> we're not sure. because of the delay of getting the crime sen investigators in there to detail everything they have to detail, it's not clear exactly what phase that's in. but we did hear from officials earlier this afternoon that hopefully by 5:00 p.m. pacific time today we'll be alk to release some of those names. >> and some of those stories of those lives lost will be told in the coming days. thank you so much. next we'll take you back live to where the shooting occurred where they were helping people in the community, doing the right thing. we're getting new information here about the victims and the investigation.
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very active investigation here. we'll be right back.
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want to take you back to san bernardino, california, as we're getting new information from the police chief who has been incredible. he was talking a little b about the shooters, these killers from the massacre that happened within that facility in san bernardino yesterday. this facility that is gored to help those with special needs and disabilities. 21 people injured, 14 killed and
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we now have, according to some sources, confirming that this 28-year-old male, this husband and wife duo may have been radicalized. investigators say that he had traveled to saudi arabia in 2013. that is apantly when he met his 27-year-old wife. the couple died in this hail of police gunfire after leading officers on this pursuit hours after they hoped fire on this holiday party at this facility in is san bernardino. inside of their california townhouse, authorities found multiple pipe bombs and materials that would be used to build bombs and ieds and thousands of rounds of ammunition. >> the suspect when they entered fired 65 and 75 rounds from their rifles at the scene. we did locate the one pipe bomb that was combined into one that had a remote control car and device that appears to have not
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have worked in this it case. there were also four high capacity rifle magazines that were dropped by the suspects and left in there as evidence that had been recovered. >> let's go straight back to san bernardino, back to my colleague poppy harlow. let's begin with -- you're near where the shooting happened, but you have been at these killer's home where they have we have this phenomenal aerial footage of fbi walking through the townhouse and looking at their cars. what's happening right now? >> it's remarkable to think this is in a neighborhood that community members were telling me is a community that's very tightly knit of young professionals and their families. i was there until the middle of the night last night. you had literally military-grade vehicles that were in front of this house searching it because apparently this is where they planned and plotted what the law
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enforcement sources tell us is premeditated attack. you don't just go to a holiday party, get upset and do this. talking about 12 pipe bombs, a a bomb lab. you see them going into the garage, pulling items out. the fbi is taking the lead on this. what have they found? we don't know specifics of what has been found in the house. we should know a little later today when they have that next press conference. last night when i was there, they were not sending officers inside. they were sending robot. s inside to see if there were any explosive devices that they could execute a controlled detonation on. >> in addition to what they are looking for in this townhouse, we heard from the police chief detailing the thousands of rounds of ammunition that they had in their car and the tactical vests. it was a tactical vest where you can put more magazines and more
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guns. >> this is someone at 28 years old who every single person who knew him, who spoke of him said they are shocked. never thought anything like this. this is someone who we have learned syed rizwan farook had zero criminal record, but all four of the guns legally were bought ands of not on the radar of authorities at all. the only potential tip is what we're hearing now from law enforcement to evan perez that there was some radicalization that he was in touch over social media and the phone a few months ago with people with terrorist ties. they are calling those soft connections. not high target terrorist individuals overseas. it is scary, but it is the reality that this is someone who flew e completely under the radar, no sign whatsoever, carries this out, attacks, kills 14 and had potentially other attacks on the way. >> to be clear, some folks are jumping to conclusions and you can see why in some of these
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when you were looki ining at th details here. but they haven't concluded if it was workplace violence or terrorism. poppy harlow, thank you so much. next, the president calling for gun reform, again, in the aftermath of this shooting. republicans are saying that's not the answer. a closer look at the rhetoric that has been flying today and the controversy raging on social media. >> i don't believe we can stop every incident of gun violence, but we sure can stop a lot of them. and we need to take action now. today people are coming out to the nation's capital to support an important cause that can change the way you live for years to come. how can you help? by giving a little more, to yourself. i am running for my future. people sometimes forget to help themselves. the cause is retirement, and today thousands of people came to race for retirement and pledge to save an additional one percent of their income.
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if we all do that we can all win. prudential bring your challenges®
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from southern california to our nation's capital, the country is reeling from the bloody massacre that happened right around this time yesterday in san bernardino. president obama responded with calls for stricter gun laws. >> i think that as the investigation moves forward, it's going to be important for all of us, including our legislatures, to see what we can do to make sure that when individuals decide they want to do somebody harm, we're making a little harder for them to do it. right now, it's just too easy. >> we had a bunch of candidates weighing in on the democratic side. hillary clinton tweeting, i refuse to accept this as normal. we must take action to stop gun violence now. bernie sanders with this, mash shootings are becoming an almost
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everyday occurrence in this country. this sickening and senseless gun violence must stop. republicans speaking out as all, although offering a difference response. >> i don't believe that gun control is going to fix this. u don't think that is the answer. i think people want to be able to defend themselves. you can have gun control that people who are intent on doing harm are going to figure out a way to get their weapons. . >> it's not a gun control issue. this is not about gun control if if you think that the shooting in california is about gun control, then you don't understand what's going on in the world. >> our prayers with the family of those who were shot and murdered. and all of us are deeply concerned that this is yet another man radical islamic terrorism here at home. >> of course our thoughts and prayers are with those that have been impacted by the attacks in california last night. >> so the democrats, the republicans and then there was.
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connecticut senator chris murphy who pushed for gun control after sandy hook massacre killing all those elementary school children and some adults couple of decembers ago. he tweeted your thoughts should be about steps to take -- or to stop this carnage. your prayers, in quotes, should be for forgiveness if you do nothing again. there was also the cover of the new york daily news blasting lawmakers with this. god isn't fixing this, in big bold block letters surrounding this headline with tweets from republicans in congress. our cnn senior media correspondent host of reliable sources is with me now with more on this cover of the daily news. and so even though a lot of people in the twitter sphere, not just republican members of congress are talking about thoughts and prayers, their audience was republicans. >> absolutely. i think we're seeing how an idea goes viral, brooke. this wasn't something we heard talked about months ago, but recently in recent days and weeks we've heard complaints about this notion that thoughts and prayers isn't always expressed but then little more is ever said or done afterwards.
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slowly come to a head last night which resulted in this cover, an editor for think progress, which is a liberal news site. >> yes. >> started re-tweeting all of the different politicians, republican politicians coming forward expressing thoughts and prayers. i think we can put an example on screen. a tweet directed at paul ryan. he said got $2,000 from the nra during the 2014 cycle to keep the san bernardino victims in their prayers and little else. thoughts and prayers is all that the politicians ever say, they never follow up with action. that's what the daily news is saying with this cover as well. it's a very controversial cover. but that's the intent of daily news, to get us talking. >> which is precisely what's happening, but what's the backlash? >> they've been on a crusade for a long time to decrease gun violence and to increase gun control. daily news makes no bones about it they want to see more steps taken. we've heard from the editor defending the cover saying we're not anti-religion.
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anybody who says we are is just trying to distract people from our message which is politicians are not taking action, they're only sharing words. kind of goes back to the old saying you want to see people act, not what they say. that's what the daily news is saying here. they want to see politicians act. >> i think it's not just the daily news saying that as well. >> of course the debate is what's the a x. >> we have an election coming up, and we're hearing some solutions from some solutions from some folks. there's that. and then there's this when the story broke during this show yesterday, i couldn't help it. i said here we go again. bbc put it this way. >> just another day in the united states of america. another day of gunfire, panic and fear. >> wow. >> just another day in the united states. is this how people around the world -- >> outsiders perceptive. it's helpful once in a while to hear how we're covered in the rest of the world. if the daily news is the insider's perspective coming from a left point of view. >> yes. >> about gun violence in the
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country, that is the outsider's perspective. and i think that bbc reporter was intentionally trying to make a statement. i think he very successfully did. this is something else that went viral and yesterday and continuing to get attention today. it's not just the bbc, it's folks in britain characterize america this way. president obama is right when he says this country is different than other countries. even folks on fox news acknowledge that. >> you have a lot to talk about come sunday morning. thank you so much. coming up next, a quote for you, nothing short of heroic. that's how the actions of the police officers in san bernardino have been described in the wake of this tragedy. let's pay tribute to them next. who wants to try? before earning enough cash back from bank of america to stir up the holidays, before earning 1% cash back everywhere, every time and 2% back at the grocery store, even before they got 3% back on gas, all with no hoops to jump through, daniel, vandi, and sarah decided to use their bank americard cash rewards credit card
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before i let you go today let me say this, i know it's my job as a journalist, but in situations like these i am getting sick of speaking the words active shooter situation because i've been covering too
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many of them. i happened to be sitting in this chair during two crucial hours of the day when kids happen to be in school and people are at work and when mad killers tend to strike. but it's the resiliency of these communities and specifically the law enforcement whose job it is to protect them what amaze me the most. in this case in california hundreds of officers risked their own lives to engage with these killers and to keep others safe. they are the heroes here. >> if you're not cool, i'm not walking. sir. keep your hands where i can see them. >> thank you. thank you. try to relax there. try to relax. i'll take a bullet before you do. that's for damn sure. just be cool, okay. >> last count i've been told we have 20 r 21 officers involved in that gun battle with the
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suspects. >> we are at san bernardino and sheddon, one guy down, one guy in the back of a car. >> we have the suspect vehicle stopped. we go ahead and extract him. we can standby. wait for the bear cat. >> copy. >> the chief of the state to say i'm incredibly proud of the way that our folks responded not only the initial response here and the help that we got from our local and regional partners, but for the way they also engaged in that officer-involved shooting and chasing down those suspects. that was nothing short of heroic. >> nothing short of heroic. those are the words from the police chief there in san bernardino, california earlier today. heroic indeed. speaking the truth. thank you so much for being with me here today. make sure you keep it here on cnn for continuing live coverage of the aftermath as we are now beginning to learn the status of the survivors and also learning about these victims 14 people
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killed in that center this time yesterday. let's go to washington. "the lead" with jake tapper starts now. welcome to "the lead." i'm jake tapper. we're going to begin with breaking news in the national lead. we're learning brand new details on that horrific shooting in san bernardino, california, where 14 innocent people who had their lives stolen from them we're only now learning their names. just minutes ago we learned the identity of the first of the victims, his name is nicholas falasinos. he was 52 years old. his wife jennifer confirming that he was among the murdered. this massacre is the deadliest mass shooting to happen in the united states since the sandy hook elementary school shooting in 2012. today we're learning about a possible link that these killers had to terrorism. law enforcement officials telling cnn that i