tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN April 24, 2016 10:00am-11:01am PDT
this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we will begin this show with the prime minister of italy. an exclusive interview on the migrant crisis that is threatening to tear europe apart, on the isis terror threat and on the comparisons between donald trump and silvio berlusconi. >> i consider donald trump a man who invest a lot in a policy of fear. also looking at the migrant crisis from another nation's point of view. lebanon's education minister
explains how his nation of 4 million is dealing with the refugee population of 2 million. imagine 170 million people coming into america in just two years, he says. and with each new terror attack people have begun to ask again that question. why do they hate us? >> tomorrow will be washington. it will be new york. it is coming. >> why do some muslims seek the death and destruction of the st? that's a question i will ask and answer in my latest special premiering monday at 9:00 p.m. i will give you a sneak preview this hour. but first here is my take. should the united states cut off its ties to saudi arabia? that is the question of the week that emerges amidst a swirl of controversies and president obama's recent visit to the kingdom.
now, i've been a critic of saudi arabia for decades, but with all the problems i think that the united states is better off with the alliance than without. let me be clear. i believe that saudi arabia bears significant responsibility for the spread of a cruel, intolerant, and backward extremist interpretation of islam, one that feeds directly into jihadi thinking, but as gregory goss points out in an important essay forthcoming in foreign affairs, saudi arabia lost control over the global extremist movement in the 1980s. the saudi regime itself has been targeted by that movement since the 1990s. if america was target number one for al qaeda, saudi arabia was target number two. while in the 1950s saudi arabia's version of islam, a product of nomadic desert culture, was practiced by a tiny minority of muslims.
saudi arabia makes up 1% of muslims right about. then came the oil boom and the government, charities and people spread these ideas throughout the muslim world. this globalized wahhabism destroyed much of the diversity within islam. snubbing out the religion in favor of an intolerant one. in the 1980s, as the war against afghanistan against the soviet union turned into a religious conflict doctrines of jihad flourished. in many cases islamic fundamentalism turned into islamic terrorism. in the years that followed 9/11, after much defensiveness and denials, the saudis began to reverse course, shutting down government funding for islamic extremist movements, retired u.s. general david petraeus once told me that the most significant strategic shift during his time in uniform was that saudi arabia went from
being a tacit supporter to an aggressive foe of jihadi groups. today saudi intelligence is a major ally in fighting al qaeda, isis, and its ilk and yet saudi funding of islamic extremism has not ended and it's pernicious effects can be seen from pakistan to indonesia. the funds now come from individuals, not the government, still it is hard to imagine that the absolutist monarchy of saudi arabia cannot turn off the pipeline of money to extremists. the reason probably is that saudi arabia is reluctant to take on its religious extremists for fear of backlash. hardline preachers and ideologues have significant sway in saudi associates. they are known for vast and growing social media, last known is within that social media the
biggest stars are preachers and extremist ideologues. were the saudi monarchy to fall it may not be replaced by a group of liberals and democrats but rather by islamists and reactionaries, and having watched this movie in iraq, egypt, libya and syria i'm somewhat cautious about cavalierly destabilizing a regime that is at the end of the day in many areas, defense, foreign policy, oil, finance, a stable ally. saudi arabia has created a monster in the world of islam, and it is now a frankenstein's monster, one that threatens saudi arabia as much as the west. the kingdom must reform itself and its export of ideology, but the reality is that this is far more likely if america engages with riyadh rather than distancing itself, leaving the kingdom to fester in its own world. foreign policy often means dealing with the world as it is, not as you would wish it to be. it means foregoing the
satisfaction of some grand moral victory and accepting instead small quarter measures. in few cases is this more true than in america's relations with this strange desert kingdom. for more go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started. ♪ joining me now in the studio is the prime minister of italy matteo renzi. he is in new york this week along with many other world leaders to officially sign the climate agreement reached in december. welcome back to the show. >> thank you. >> italy has now become the new entry point it seems for all these waves of migration that are coming into europe. of course it has always been, but for a while greece was the central entry point. that seems to have been shut down, slowed down.
you saw this tragedy of this boat this week. what is the solution to this immediate crisis which is these waves of refugee? where will they go? what happens to them? are you going to have camps to keep them? >> there is not solution in the next two days, two weeks, two months. we need a strategy, we need a very intelligent program for the next month, and only europe could solve this very great problem because for me the real question is not tackle against the people who arrive with the ships in our borders. the real question is block these sisters and brothers who come from africa and give them an opportunity in africa. >> meaning find something in the places that they are coming --
migrating from so they don't have to migrate. >> absolutely. we have alternatives. >> but what do you do in syria? these people can't go back to syria. >> we need time. block the war. block the cause of migration in syria finally, which is a very important first step of peace. it's not the definitive solution, but it's a very important step. >> but do you have time because you're getting these waves of migrants and it's changing the politics in countries like italy, like france? >> yes. now we have a very great controversy and controversial situation in europe. a lot of countries said, oh, this is the time of new walls, we block the people, we build new walls. i think this is not solution. this is good for consensus, but i think i prefer the consensus
in the polls, but italy continue to save the people in the sea. also my position consider this a mistake i think is absolutely important, maintain my dimension of human being. if there is a woman in the mediterranean who risk life, i save this woman, i try to save these people obviously. maybe i lose some points in the polls, but i don't lose my dignity. this is very important. >> what about the other issue of the climate of fear, which is that the terrorist attacks that have taken place in europe. over the last year you have had a series of terrorist attacks in europe and many people say that one of the problems that europe faces is that its countries while they are all part of the
european economic union they do not share intelligence, they do not have the same standards on borders. somebody comes into one country and is a suspicious person, that is not reported to other countries. how serious a problem is this? because there are people who say europe will fall apart because of this, because countries will start putting up borders rather than accept the idea that, you know, they just have to let in somebody from greece or bulgaria? >> i agree with you, fareed, about the intelligence sharing, absolutely, and this is a problem for some countries in europe, but, first of all, let me be very frank. first, there is not a connection between migration and terrorism. terrorists come not with the sheep. terrorists, in part, come with the very strong organization and in part grew up in europe. >> they grew up in europe?
>> absolutely. molenbeek, a quarter, a part of brussels, is a part in which a lot of these killers grow up and this is a problem for europe. so in italy we change legislation, i put on the table a lot of money to fight against terrorism, but at the same time i give this message. for every euro invested in security we must invest one euro in culture, education. for every euro invest in police we must invest one euro in a different cultural approach because when you see some colleagues said, okay, this is a time of war, i think this is not correct. this is not war. this is terrorist attacks inside europe, but we need a reaction also in the education system, in the cultural system, security,
start from education. there is also a problem in syria against daesh. we must destroy the army of daesh everywhere. we fight against these terrible people everywhere, within the united states of america, but at the same time, i think europe, brussels, we have a problem, and the problem is in europe, not only outside. >> mr. prime minister, we need to take a break. when we come back i will ask the prime minister about the comparisons between donald trump and silvio berlusconi. what can we learn from italy's experience?
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and we are back with the prime minister of italy, matteo renzi. so, mr. prime minister, i wonder when you come to this country and you see that there is a very rich man, a billionaire, who is appealing to people at a very populous level and is very funny and is able to make jokes and laugh and nobody thought he was going to do well and then suddenly he does better and better and better. are you watching donald trump and thinking to yourself, i've seen this movie before and his name is silvio berlusconi? >> every country present a different history, and i respect american people and so i think it's better for a prime minister of italy don't enter into an electoral competition in usa. this is my personal position and official position of the government.
as member of my party, democrat party, obviously i support very strongly hillary clinton because i think she is a woman able to give security to every partner, to give message of cooperation with other partners, to continue the good policy of president obama. our experience with a billionaire as prime minister is very complicated. i consider donald trump a man who invest a lot in a policy of fear. use the expression about migration or about muslims or about also relation with european people. so i don't know. i respect as prime minister of italy i will host every president from the united states
of america in the next g-7 in italy in 2017. i respect the vote of american people, the republican party, the democratic party, independent party, everything. we respect because we consider american people as brother. people and our first ally of our first partner, our first friend at the same time as a member of a member of a democrat party in italy. i hope the next president of the united states could be a woman finally. >> but let me ask you as an italian politician, there are many politicians, political figures in italy who feel that berlusconi in many ways set back italian democracy because of the extraordinary use of his private power and mixing it with public power, turning the celebrity status into political status. do you worry about trump in that way? >> i'm not worried. i'm not worried.
i don't agree with donald trump's positions, but at the same time i consider american democracy is a model for the rest of the world, also for italy, and so i'm not worried. the american people will be able to decide about the next president in freedom and in respect of everyone. >> will you miss president obama? >> everyone in europe considered the obama presidency as a great presidency. obama changed a lot of things in united states for labor market reforms, for the economy after the terrible crisis of 2008, for a lot of -- for attention about climate change, energy sector, universe -- a lot of things in your country, but they think obama gives also a great message around the world, and personally i consider good, positive
legacies by barack obama the agreement in cuba and also the agreement in iran. i visited last week iran, i visited tehran, i met president rouhani. i think the decision to involve iran in a new strategy for the area but also for the rest of the world, it's good. obviously we must control, we must verify the respect of the agreement, but i think president obama will be -- this part, the legacy of president obama, will be very good in the judge of the future. >> mr. prime minister, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. next up, as prime minister renzi says the refugee crisis has no short-term solution, but imagine being a top official in a country whose population has gone up 50% because of the influx of refugees.
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the waves of the mediterranean wash up on the shores of lebanon, but from the nation's inland borders with israel and syria, it is waves of human beings that have been washing up, waves of refugees. these refugees have been coming for decades, but now lebanon seems to be at its breaking point as it tries to figure out how in the world to feed these people, keep them healthy, and educate the children. the challenge is astounding, as are the numbers involved. listen in to my conversation with the nation's education minister elias bou saab. >> pleasure to have you on. >> thank you very much. >> so explain it. strikes me you have one of the most difficult jobs in the world. so lebanon is a country of 4 million people. >> that's correct. >> how many refugees does lebanon have from the syrian civil war? >> we had 500,000 palestinians
from before, and now we have 1.5 million syrian displaced people that are now present in lebanon. >> so there are 2 million refugees for a country of 4 million people? >> exactly that. so it's like as if you are comparing to the united states, about 170 million refugee decided to walk into the country in less than two years. >> and when you look at this problem you are looking at it from the point of view of the ministry of education. what became your principal challenge once you have these 1.5 million people coming to the country? >> i have 1,200 schools in the government system. i have 250,000 lebanese school-age in the system, in the government system, and i have 450,000 syrian refugee child ready to go. >> so you have almost twice as almost refugee children as there are in the entire public school system in lebanon? >> exactly. so i had to think outside the box. first thing we tried to do, to look at a case study to see where did this happen in the world, how can we learn from
what happened to deal with the situation, and you will not find anything like that. you know, lebanon according to the unhcr's report, is the highest per capita country that have displaced people. actually, they have listed like the top ten. lebanon alone -- put together all the nine, the other nine, lebanon alone is double the figure. >> wow. >> so we are in a situation that is unheard of in the world. >> so what is your plan? >> i started operating double shift system. i use the school twice, one shift in the morning, another shift in the afternoon. >> like a factory almost. >> like a factory almost. >> how did you get double the number of teachers, or did you make teachers do double shifts? >> we do have a lot of part-timers, adjunct professors. because of the unemployment rate is so high, we have a lot more teachers than what we need and they do three or four hours a week. the problem was with the funding. you know, the lebanese government's financial situation
is known to the world, you know, we have big debts, unbalanced budgets. we had the crisis prior to the refugee situation. still, lebanon opened its doors to all these refugees. they are there and we went to the international community and said we need funding to be able to make a difference. we need funding. we are committed to put all these children in schools, we are committed to give them healthcare, we are committed to take care of them on a temporary, you know, solution until the situation in syria permits, until there is a political solution in syria where they can go back, where they can safely go back home. >> and what happens, in your view, when these children are not in school? many of these are teenage boys, this is the easiest recruiting ground for groups like isis, hezbollah, groups like that. >> well, usually they are isis, you know, because hezbollah is a lebanese group and they have nothing to do with this. but in the isis -- anytime you
have children out of school they are -- you know, they get abused, for either child labor, easy recruit for the terrorist organizations like isis and nusra and others. you have child prostitution, you have early marriages, you name it. everything becomes -- even crime rate goes up in the country. >> and with all your work, you've only got half the kids -- right, there are about 450,000 school-aged kids and you've managed to -- your plan can take care of 200,000. >> right. >> even if you succeed and get fully funded, now you have to double it. >> we have a plan to take all 450,000 by the end of the academic year 2016/2017, however, this will depend on the financing. but right now we are at a point where, you know, we need to help, we are human beings, it is an obligation. i myself was a refugee one day
in syria for a year and i lost a school year when -- >> during the lebanese civil war? >> 1982, during the israeli invasion to beirut, to lebanon, we had to flee the country. so i understand what it means when you leave your country and go somewhere else and i thought we need to help. >> elias bou saab, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you. next on "gps" the united states is under attack from china. in fact, china attacks the united states every day, not with fighter jets or missiles, but with ones and zeros and the united states attacks right back. we will take you deep inside international cyber wars when we come back. pet moments are beautiful, unless you have allergies. flonase is the first and only nasal spray approved to relieve both itchy, watery eyes and congestion. no other nasal allergy spray can say that. go ahead, embrace those beautiful moments. flonase changes everything.
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attacking other nations on a daily basis, not with conventional weapons, but computers. the most troubling part is there are no rules, no laws, no way to stop this from spiraling into real war. slate's fred kaplan has been digging into this for a great new book "dark territory: the secret history of cyber war." listen in on our conversation. >> fred kaplan, welcome. >> thank you. >> so you say this all began when ronald reagan was watching a matthew broderick movie. >> that's right. it's an odd story, but it's the first weekend in june 1983, he is up in camp david on one of his five-day weekends watching a movie every night. on saturday he watched "war games." this was matthew broderick, he plays in tech whiz teenager who hacks into the main computer at norad, thinking he is playing a computer game, unwittingly almost sets off world war iii. the following wednesday reagan is back in the white house, there is a national security
meeting not about this, something else, but he can't get this movie out of his mind. at one point he puts down his index cards and says, has anybody seen this movie "war games"? he launches into detailed plot description, people are looking around, rolling their eyeballs. he turns to his chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and says, general, could something like this really happen? he said, i will look into that, mr. president. he comes back a week later and says, mr. president, the problem is much worse than you think, which led ten months later to the first presidential directive on computer security which reads, remarkably, like the things that you read all the time now. you know, our computers are coming under -- they're vulnerable to electronic interference from terrorists, criminals, foreign agents. >> what we hear about a lot now is how vulnerable the united states is, how there are all these attacks coming in from the chinese, russian hackers, how our nuclear facilities might not be safe.
what's the scenario that you worry about? >> well, you know, i guess i'm not really quite clear on why, for example, china or russia would want to shut down the lights in new york city, even to gain leverage in a conflict over the south china sea, which is a common scenario, but what if terrorists all of a sudden start getting this stuff or they g enough money to pay people that know how to do it to do it, and they just want to wreak havoc. >> shutting down the power grid strikes you as something that's kind of doable and would have devastating consequences. >> they couldn't do it over the entire country or over an entire region because we are decentralized to some degree, but yeah, they could shut down the eastern seaboard for a fair amount of time. it's not at all out of the question. >> what do you make of the numbers you hear about chinese hacking that, you know, the pentagon gets hacked, i don't remember the numbers, a million times a day or whatever it is.
>> it's a lot. >> and it's mostly chinese. >> chinese, russia, a little bit our friends. we do the same thing to them, you know, you don't hear about it as much. we don't hack into their banks or get their trade secrets. we don't need it. >> we are virtuous. >> we don't need to know the design of their airplanes, they stole it from us in the first place. we hack into their military networks. we have plants in their critical infrastructure just as a deterrent. it's just that to their attacking -- we are all wrapped up in each other's systems. >> it strikes me that this resembles a little bit the early days of the development of nuclear weapons where, you know, everybody had this new stuff, it seemed pretty amazing and powerful, and there were no rules about it and then you've got arms control because people realized this thing can get out of hand. is there any prospect that there would be some kind of arms
control-like agreements where the chinese and the americans, say, come up with a set of rules that say, look, we both understand we each do it, but here is what we -- here are the lines we shouldn't cross? >> there has been talks about this, but, you know, right now there are 20 countries that have cyber units in their military and maybe we could strike some kind of deal with the russians and chinese and french and israelis, but what about the syrians and iranians and north koreans? i could go on and on. how do you bring them into a concert in vienna of the cyber age? it may have gotten out of hand a bit too quickly. >> fred kaplan, pleasure to have you. >> thank you. next up, islamic jihadis the world over have great expectations about the 72 virgins that will be waiting for them in paradise, but my next guest will tell you that it's all a big misunderstanding, probably a mistranslation.
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donald trump says islam hates us, but does it? certainly some muslims do. how many and why? and what in the world can we do about it? my team and i have been hard at work preparing my next special which seeks to answer these questions. it's called "why they hate us" and it's premiering mondays night at 9:00 p.m. eastern on both cnn and cnn international. one of the people i interviewed for the program is a woman with an extraordinary story. one imam said mamji was more dangerous than osama bin laden. why? because she is a muslim reformer who is trying to change her faith from within. a vocal feminist reform minded
gay muslim. listen in to manji's fascinating tale. >> talk about growing up in vancouver in a muslim household and going to a madrassa. >> well, my family and i are refugees from uganda. we wound up on the precious soil of canada in 1972, and that's where i grew up attending two kinds of schools, monday through friday the public schools and saturday and sunday the madrassa. that is where i began to ask very simple questions. but those questions including why can't muslims take jews and christians as friends angered my madrassa teacher. at one point at the age of 14 he said to me, look, either you believe or you you get out and if you get out get out for good and i stood up and i walked out of the madrassa and indeed what
i did every saturday now that i was no longer welcome at the madrassa and had eight hours, you know, to work with i went to a secular institution called the public library where i read everything i could about belief systems and that, fareed, is where i also discovered something that revolutionized my faith. i discovered that islam has its own tradition of independent thinking and debate and dissent and reinterpretation and it's a tradition known as ich dehad. what is so ironic, if not sad, is that i would have never learned about it at the religious school, a secular institution saved my faith in my faith. >> what was it like when you realized that you were gay and had to try to reconcile that with your faith? >> i really haven't struggled, and, you know, my lack of struggle about being a gay muslim really comes from the
fact that i have deep faith in god, and this is not a god whom i fear, it is a god whom i love and i believe loves me back. and what i find so ironic is that, you know, even mainstream muslims, especially mainstream muslims, say that allah is omnipotent. he cannot make mistakes, he knows what he is doing. great. well, in that case he knew that he was creating somebody like me. did he make a mistake in doing so? fareed, i'm not saying i'm right, i'm saying let's have the humility to leave the final judgment to god himself. >> you say it's very important not to sanitize islam. explain what you mean. >> well, i mean that moderate muslims have a tendency to sanitize islam. so, for example, the next time a bombing or beheading occurs, and god knows it will, the first
thing you will hear from the mouth of a so-called moderate muslim is, oh, no, no, no, please, don't misunderstand. islam has nothing to do with this. that's simply not true. because most of the people doing these bombings and beheadings say that they are doing it in the name of allah, and they actually cite verses from the koran. so here is the thing, religious symbolism does play a role that moderates are still not willing to own up to. reformists own up to it, but we also acknowledge that islam is being manipulated, it is being used, and that is why we are coming to the table as reformists with bold and competing reinterpretations of the koran, and reinterpreting i want to emphasize is not the same thing as rewriting. this is rethinking the meanings of the words that already exist. >> and to those who say, well, you are cherry picking, what do
you say? >> i say yes, that's correct and so are you, by not acknowledging the freedom loving verses of the koran. let us have diversity of interpretation within islam. i could be wrong. you could be wrong of the maybe we'll both see each other in hell, who knows? we won't know until we meet our maker. >> you make a point that i feel not enough people are aware of, so one of those famous points about islam, that you will hear across popular media everywhere, the koran promises a martyr in the name of islam 72 virgins, is that true? >> it is not true. nowhere in the koran does it promise 72 virgins, 70 virgins, 48 virgins. what it promises as far as heaven goes is something lush.
and you know, there was a few years back, a controversy over a scholar who came to the conclusion that the arabic word for virgin has been mistranslated, that the original word that was used in the koran was the word for raisin, not virgin. in other words, that martyrs would get raisins in heaven and not virgins. some say how in the heck can this be possible? why raisins? >> in the seventh century, the desert of what is now saudi arabia would have been a place that is dry enough that something like a raisen would have been pricey and delicacy. it is entirely possible that the koran has been mistranslated to give this impression of virgins being delivered to martyrs in
heaven. i don't buy it and there's nothing in the koran that suggests 72, that's for sure. >> don't miss my new special, why they hate us, monday night at 9:00 p.m. we'll introduce you to radicals and reformers and angry muslim activists and angry american politicians, how islam got to this point and how many muslims are there out there who want to kill us? monday night at 9:00. next on gps, a refreshing pause from the coverage of the campaign trail today. in a moment an intimate portrait of a past occupant of the oval office, john fitzgerald kennedy.
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theodore roosevelt, harry truman or dwight eisenhower, stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. this book of the week is a set of films on dvd. it begins with a unique glimpse inside a presidential campaign but don't worry, i'm giving you a break from the 2016 circus, the collection is called the kennedy films of robert drew and associates and they are a firsthand look at 1960s politics from the primaries to the presidency. >> you're about to see a candidate's view of this frantic process. >> using what was revolutionary hand held camera gear, they provide a real fly on the wall experience, first we see then senator john f. kennedy challenge his minnesota colleague humphrey in the 1960 wisconsin primary. >> just stopping by to say hello. >> the film allowed real life
moments to unfold in front of the cameras telling the story without interviews and little nar race, a radical departure from the documentaries of the day. the finished product is said to have impressed the future general president kennedy who allowed them to film him in the highest office in the land. in one fascinating hour the cameras eyes watched jfk working with his brother, bobby kennedy and bobby deputy, trying to navigate politics of the 1963 desegregation of the university of alabama. in the face of the on stinant governor george wallace. >> i believe that situation is good for the negro citizen and white citizen. >> it is privy to all sides. >> the governor cannot block all classes. >> if he still doesn't move, we'll try to get by him. >> push him.
>> push him a little bit. >> the films will be available on blu-ray and dvd on tuesday. likely make you nostalgic for an era of politics. >> when the cause of freedom is endangered all over the world, where the united states stands and can see the enemy burning or distant hills, that's what is at issue today and attempting to determine in the coming months and years, all of us. >> the correct answer to the challenge question, c, harry truman was the first sitting president to visit germany. richard nixon was the first to go to saudi arabia in '74 in the wake of the oil crisis as for britain, wood row wilson made
the first visit to the uk arriving in london on boxing day in 1918 after the armistice that ended world war i. thanks for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. >> hello, thanks for joining me, hillary clinton is rolling out a new message on the campaign trail today, just two days away from super tuesday. she's issuing a warning call against the dangerous extreme makeover of donald trump and this week the trump campaign told republican party leaders trump would be softening his tone and portray ag more presidential image. at a fiery campaign rally last night and powerful new campaign web video, clinton says quote, if we buy it, shame on us. >> hello, rhode island. >> at the right time i'll be so presidential you'll be so