tv At This Hour With Berman and Bolduan CNN May 9, 2016 8:00am-9:01am PDT
beginning. >> it's going to be one day after next to the middle of may, maybe even into june. >> thank you for bringing us the latest and thank you for being here with me. i'm pamela brown. "at this hour with berman and bolduan" starts now. hello, everyone. i'm john berman. >> i'm kate bolduan. just one day now until the west virginia and nebraska primaries, but more importantly possibly, three days until the paul ryan primary. the powerful house speaker says he is not ready to back his party's presumptive nominee, not yet, not ready to back donald trump. >> the two men will meet thursday in a moment that could determine the future of trump's campaign, the republican party, or both. joining us cnn political director david chalian, but first cnn's phil mattingly to report on this family feud. play the role of richard dawson
for us with less kissing. who is winning or where does it stand? >> nice way to put it right off the top. if you look at what paul ryan did last week a bit of a brush back to warn donald trump to get him to move toward paul ryan on policy, on politics, on tone. so donald trump has decided to go the exact opposite direction on all of those things, and that sets a strange date of play as we head towards thursday here. one of the important things to point out, guys is over the course of the weekend things seemed to get progressively more aggressive. you had donald trump kind of considering the pocket possibility he would pull paul ryan from the conventional chairmanship. then you had sarah palin threatening to go and try and take paul ryan out essentially, knock him off his house seat, support the challenger there, but i think there's an interesting point here, and that's how donald trump perceives this. he actually pointed to it in his interview this morning on "new day" with chris cuomo. take a listen to what he had to
say. >> we have a group of people, that's great. this group of people has given me and it's them, it's a group, i'm like a messenger, but they have given me a number that no other president, not ronald reagan, nobody has ever gotten, okay? >> reporter: so donald trump is blindsided, correct? he said that. he did not know paul ryan was going to do this. paul ryan's staff did not call donald trump. donald trump sat there and started thinking, more people have voted for me in this primary than any other republican primary in the history of the country. why is it incumbent on donald trump to move toward paul ryan? why is it incumbent for him to move towards republican leaders? donald trump decided it isn't and that's where you're seeing him right now going into thursday, keeping a very hard stance on where he's been on policy, where he's been on tone. paul ryan should have to come to him, and guys where that basically leaves us a couple days away from this is no closer to any type of resolution. >> no closer to a kumbaya
moment, no closer to any middle ground. put this all in context, the broader context of the week and where donald trump is right now. and a candidate that seems to be trying to transition to a general in tone but, but, dot, dot, dot, but not yet it seems. >> put yourself in donald trump's head space for a moment. he has done nothing but -- >> that is a challenge, to put yourself in donald trump's -- >> by observing what he's done. he has been speaking this very same message about vanquishing his republican opponents, about the support he's getting inside the party and about how the establishment doesn't understand. that's every day, several stops a day. by rote, this is his entire reason. he's in a moment of transition and he's finding his way there. this is not flipping a light switch for people. we look at these candidates like
they're robotic but they're human beings and he needs to sort of shed -- he won the republican primary. he is right about the historic nature of his victory. he vanquished every rival. he is the republican nominee, and so now he has to shed that language about trying to defeat republicans because he does need to bring some more republicans on board with him. it's a simple math equation. in order to get to 270 electoral votes, there is no doubt donald trump has brought new people into this process. he's going to bring new people in in november. i guarantee it, that haven't voted before, that he has excited, and donald trump has been winning among independents and he's going to have a great time with a lot of independents in the fall i believe as well. and yet he still does need to consolidate support in his own party. he can't ignore it, and if he thought he could ignore it, guys, he wouldn't be meeting with paul ryan. so, yes, he doesn't want to do this on paul ryan's terms but understands he has to get the party to heal from this very
contentious nomination season. >> your best guess at this season, do they walk out holding hands metaphorically? >> it's so hard to guess anything this election season, but yes, my best guess is i don't know if they'll walk out thursday holding hands but i don't see a permanent rift between paul ryan and donald trump going all the way through the convention and beyond in the fall. i think that is a more unlikely outcome. i'm prepared to eat my words like i have many times before this election season, but i think that's a more unlikely outcome of an outcome of an all-out civil war in the party that doesn't get healed. >> it was an unfair question because my answer to every political question is i have no freaking idea after everything we've been through. >> it is anyone's guess what it's going to look like coming out of that meeting but intriguing nonetheless. great to see you. thanks so much. so the 2012 gop nominee mitt romney is weighing in again. hitting both donald trump and bernie sanders this time. >> we live in tumultuous times.
demagogues on the right and the left draw upon our darker angels scapegoating immigrants and muslims or bankers and business people. profiteers tempt and endeavor to hook us with compulsive entertainments. think carefully about the habits of your life. you deserve to be happy. >> all right. this speech from mitt romney came just days after mitt romney met with our next guest bill cross toll, founder and editor of "the weekly standard" now leading an effort to find a third-party candidate or at least some kind of alternative. bill kristol, thanks for being with us here in new york. you had a meeting with mitt romney that's received a ton of attention right now. there are those who say you are recruiting him to run as a
third. heart candida party candidate. please tell us right now what happened at this meeting. >> i'll let mitt romney tell you what happened at the meeting. just get him here tomorrow. >> no problem. >> no problem. we both happened to be at a dinner in washington on thursday night. we discussed what he said publicly that he doesn't believe hillary clinton or donald trump should be the president and we discussed different possible ways to go forward. i do want to go to that meeting on thursday that paul ryan is having with donald trump. don't you think i should be invited? >> sure. >> donald trump could help the 42% or 44% or whatever of the republican primary voters he's gotten and i can represent the majority of the republican party that didn't vote for donald trump. >> did romney say he was open to the idea of running -- >> i thaurt you were going to say is paul ryan open to me coming to the meeting? i don't want to characterize what governor romney said. he can speak for himself but i think a lot of people -- we can joke about family feuds and
kumbaya. it's a pretty serious thing. if you're mitt romney or paul ryan or george w. bush bush, , y see donald trump who they don't think he's qualified, paul ryan has been a little more tentative saying he hasn't yet seen he has the right character, that's a serious matter. you can't just say i'm a republican, what the heck, the guy won the primaries, i am going to spo are this guy to be commander in chief. i think everyone has to respect them. it's easier to go along and get along. it's easier to say the people have spoken and i really respect mitt romney and paul ryan for saying, wait a second, my conscience doesn't let me say donald trump is the right man. >> it's one thing to say that my conscience doesn't let me say that donald trump is the right man, but you're going a whole step further -- >> if your conscience tells you something, kate -- if you're involved in the fight and you say that it shouldn't be clinton and it shouldn't be trump,
someone intelligent is going to say what are you doing about it? >> tactically how do you go about having a third-party nominee at this point. you take a look at where the rules are. texas's deadline for filing is today. do you have any news that someone is filing in texas today? >> new about the precedence from the '80s -- if a candidate decided to run by june 1st, the only two states they would miss the ballot are texas and north carolina. a lawsuit in those states would probably succeed in saying that early deadline is unconstitutional. you could do a write-in effort. it is practically doable. is it hard? yes. if it was easy, people would be doing it every year. did ross perot get on all ballots in 1992? yes. was perot ahead -- >> who did he end up helping? >> at one point in june he was ahead in the polls. i think there's so much unhappiness with get aclinton a trump, the independent candidate -- >> you're reading a banner that
says trump taps christie to lead transition team. the trump campaign put out a statement saying if and when donald trump wince the nomination, chris christie is going to help that transition to the white house on january 20th. that's why you're reading that right there. we've got a long way to go before do. >> chris christie was an important endorsement for trump and some elected officeholders like governor christie have decided they can work with donald trump. if you look at the last week and a half, the conspiracy theories, embracing mike tyson and then he's the prospective nominee. this is not a -- it's amazing for a presidential candidate to say. for me it comes down to character and judgment. >> paul ryan is having this meeting. paul ryan says he's not there yet. if paul ryan does decide to support, endorse, or at least say something supportive of donald trump, will that change your opinion of paul ryan? >> no, because everyone has to
make up his own mind on this and i think paul ryan is a very serious and impressive guy, but i hope he keeps his powder dry and makes -- look, i think it's reasonable for people, especially if they have elected office, it's one thing for me to say i think there should be a third candidate. paul ryan is representing the republican members of the house, the speaker of the house, the third ranking person in the u.s. government. it's a little harder for him to just go where i'm going, but i think it is very striking and this is the big news of the last week. trump clinches the nomination. impressive campaign and what happens? the republican speaker of the house says, i'm sorry, and the most recent republican presidential candidate say i'm sorry, i can't support him now. that's a pretty big now. >> not yet at least. what are the chances we're going to have -- maybe a different one. what are the chances you're going to have a third-party nominee? >> 50/50. >> a serious candidate. i think there will be all people who will run in symbolic ways in
specific states even if we don't -- >> what is serious? give it to us. >> ben sasse -- >> he says no thanks. >> he says so far no thanks but let's see. >> 50% chance is pretty high. all right bill cross tolkristol hold you to it. >> the eternal optimist some say. >> thank you very much. >> what is the best way for team clinton and the clintons themselves to respond to trump? and donald trump may want to check in with donald trump on his tax plan saying he's willing to pay more in taxes but then today on cnn saying something a little different. is he clarifying, expanding, or changing his position? we're going to talk to one of the country's staunchest opponents of tax increases. what does he think donald trump is saying? and breaking news out of north carolina just hours before a big deadline. the state makes a big move over
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what are you doing? sara, i love you, and... [phone rings] ah, it's my brother. keep going... sara, will you marry... [phone rings again] what do you want, todd???? [crowd cheering] keep it going!!!! if you sit on your phone, you butt-dial people. it's what you do. todd! if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it's what you do. i know we just met like, two months ago... yes! [crowd cheering] [crowd cheering over phone] for the wealthy, i think frankly it's going to go up, and you know what? it really should go up. >> you want taxes on the wealthy
to go up or down? >> they will go up a little bit, and they may go up, you know -- >> but they're going down in your plan. >> in my plan they're going down but by the time it's negotiated, they'll go up. i don't mind paying more tax. i'll be honest with you. i have done very well over the last -- >> but will someone like me or donald trump pay more under your tax plan? >> i have a feeling we may pay some more. i am willing to pay more and you know what, the wealthy are willing to pay more. >> all right. they're willing to pay more, i'm willing to pay more. more, more, more. that's this weekends. donald trump is either backtracking or clarifying or expanding this position depending on your point of view. yesterday he seemed to suggest he would accept an increase for the wealthy in a trump presidency but this morning he claimed that's not what he meant at all. >> if i increase on the wealthy, that means they're still be paying less than they're paying now. i'm talking about increasing from my tax proposal. and yet they go there to talk about like i'm giving a tax
increase for the wealthy. i'm not. i said they may have to pay somewhat more than my proposal. >> joining us now is the president of americans for tax reform, the man who created the no tax hike pledge, grover norquist. great to see you. thanks for coming in. >> absolutely. >> so a couple things we should say. one, last week you came out to back donald trump. two, you are a tax expert. we do know that. so let's start with those two things. >> sure. >> do you understand donald trump's position on raising taxes today? >> yeah. i mean, i understood it when he talked to chuck todd and george stephanopoulos. his tax plan takes the tax rates to 10%, 15%, and 25% for individuals. that's a significant across the board reduction in taxes for everybody. and the corporate rate both for uber drivers and subchapter s as well as businesses, companies, businesses, to 15%. that's a tremendous reduction in
the taxes that businesses have to pay. be very good for jobs. he said when i go in to negotiate with congress, i may not get everything i asked for, and if i do have to give anything up, it's not going to be on the middle class side. now, he's going to be sitting in a room with kevin brady, republican leader of ways and means, and hatch, republican leader of the finance committee as well as mitch mcconnell and paul ryan. the five of them in a room starting with trump's tax plan, i'm very happy. i sleep very well at night. taxes are going to go down for everybody significantly. i think trump's plan is a fine resting place, not just an opening bid. >> you know, you heard george go back at him several times on the issue of would you be willing to pay more taxes, not more taxes under your plan than you're currently proposing but paying more taxes now. that really was the implications of that. you didn't get out of that that donald trump was suggesting the taxes on the wealthy, he'd be
willing to let them go up? >> no, because if you look at his plan, and he kept talking about negotiations, i was not -- i understand what stephanopoulos was trying to do -- >> i don't think there was anything like cloaked though, grover. if you look -- i have the transcript in front of me -- >> i read it. >> several times, i'm not questioning that you did, but what donald trump laid out in september in terms of his tax plan, this does not coincide with that. that's where the confusion is today. i'm surprised that you're comfortable when he says -- george says but people like you and me, we should pay more? i don't mind paying more in tacks. i have done very well in the last ten years. in the end will someone like me or donald trump pay more? i think more. the middle class will pay less. i wouldn't mind paying more. i'm surprised to hear you say you're comfortable with that. >> okay. one, since i have read the original plan and he said in the interview he's with his original plan, and it came in the context of negotiating with the republican house and senate about how in the world the
actual bill. kevin brady and hatch will both have their own plans. paul ryan has written his own plan. the republican house and senate have strong plans. the plan that comes out of a republican house/senate and trump presidency will not be exactly trump's plan. it will be close. i think it needs to include full expensing. that would be a good addition. i thought he was fairly clear and clarifying. anybody like george stephanopoulos who wants to pay more in tacks cxes ka. there's a thing at the bottom that says you can pay more. six states have tax me more proposals and any politician that wants to raise taxes should show us a history of ten years of paying more themselves. >> a little opt-in clause. let's talk about something else donald trump discussed this morning. he was talking about debt and physical policy, talking about how in business, he was the king of debt. he also talked about the
national debt, and he talked about the issue of default, right? he said the u.s. can't default because you can always print money. first of all, you never have to default because you can print money. i hate to tell you, so there's never a default. that's what he says about the debt. what's your level of comfort with donald trump's grasp of overall fiscal policy? >> well, that's just stating a fact. it's what the united states government has been doing for quite a number of years is printing more money. you saw the double digit inflation under carter. he didn't default on the debt. he just made the debt much less valuable because he printed so much money and we ended up with double digit inflation year after year. so it's a fact. that's what the governments do. that's what argentina does. is it a good thing to do? no. is it where you want to be? no. is it what governments do over time? he's quite correct, that's what they tend to do, even our government has inflated the currency to the point where the debt, national debt, is a fraction of the percentage of
gdp it was up until obama started taking it off into new directions. but when somebody says this is the way governments have behaved, that's not necessarily a argument that that's what they ought to do. what we should do is reduce spending as well as growth, and this is why a republican house and senate with trump can make tremendous progress and finally deal with some of the spending issues that obama wouldn't do. >> real quick, donald trump is one of two -- one of only two of the republican candidates that did not sign your pledge a pledge that has been critical in republican politics for years. does donald trump need to sign your pledge? >> well, corey lewandowski, his staff person, actually told me he had sign it and he would get it to us. i don't physically have it. we don't count it until we see it and can put it online. >> when did he say that? >> about a month or so ago back when the -- >> snail mail is taking a long time. taking a long time to get your
way. >> we don't consider it a signed pledge until it's in front of the american people because the pledge is to the american people. >> right. >> but trump has also said repeatedly first to "time" m magazine and other places no overall tax increase, period, which is what the pledge is to the american people. so one, he said it. two, i'm told we'll be getting a copy of the pledge and trust that that's accurate. but also remember, we have 90% of the republicans in the house and senate who have taken that pledge to the american people, not as senator reid or president obama sometimes suggest to me. the pledge is to the american people, and there will not be a tax increase passed by the house and the senate or signed by a president. they wouldn't give obama a tax increase. they're certainly not going to give anyone else a tax increase. and trump has said he'd never ask for it. >> okay. grover norquist, thank you so much. let us know when the mail gets there. >> absolutely. >> appreciate you being with us. >> shall do. >> you can just send it to us in an e-mail. that's fine. great to see you.
>> okay. >> thank you. >> the cruz campaign a little back to the future, the cruz campaign says they could have stopped trump. how? a cruz/rubio unity ticket, but marco rubio refused, and now the cruz folks say that may be one reason that donald trump is still around. >> is that the back to the future that includes the hover board? >> yes. >> nice. donald trump says heart unity is nice but maybe not necessary. what does it mean days before the crucial face-to-face with the house speaker? will he offer a different message behind closed doors? with diabetes. en g steady is exciting. oh this is living baby! only glucerna has carbsteady, to help minimize blood sugar spikes. and try new glucerna hunger smart to help you feel full. (vo) on the trane test range, you learn what makes our heating and cooling systems so reliable.
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in the game of could of, would of, should of, it would have been a blow out according to a source close to ted cruz who says cruz could have stopped donald trump if marco rubio had signed on as cruz's running mate back in march. >> in march, this is a long time ago, folks, before florida and ohio. the cruz campaign apparently, you know, called the rubio team and actually poll tested the idea of this unity ticket in five primary states and says that cruz/rubio would have beaten trump in a landslide, 65%/35%. this is all information jake tapper got over the weekend from team cruz. it really is pretty interesting. here to discuss, jeff dewait, a donald trump surrogate, jackie kucinich, and kevin sheridan, former senior adviser for mitt romney's presidential campaign and former rnc spokesman. kevin, i want to start with you here. you know, is this sort of like
missed opportunity, a dream, or is this a type of dream that is only ever a dream and would never really happen? >> i mean, we'll never know. i don't totally buy it. i think, you know, ted cruz -- in some ways it's an attractive ticket but ted cruz had some problems that were structural and some problems with his likability. marco rubio was a very likable candidate and came across as youthful and energetic and in some ways they were similar but he was more -- better in the likability scale. i don't know that that jumps though to ted cruz just because they become a ticket. so i don't actually think that it honestly would have mattered. the republican party was looking for an outsider and they got it in donald trump. >> but, jackie, to kevin's pointed, do you think if all of this is accurate, the polling is accurate, what cruz is saying, these conversations, cruz insiders kind of said these conversations were kind of, sort of, maybe happening. do you think it ever would have
happened? you know the tenor and the tone of the race back in march. it was crazy. >> it certainly doesn't seal like that. it just seems like the cruz campaign is sort of looking to pass the buck a little bit when, in fact, when you get down to it, they had a product that not a lot of republicans wanted to buy at the end of the day. cruz never really sold it. a likability problem. it's not like rubio's likability would have transferred because there were so many variables that happened over the course of those months. who knows. it is a little bit -- it seems like they're trying to shift some blame to someone else. >> there's the rubio story jake broke over the weekend. that they could have won if john kasich had been out. there's a lot of finger pointing from the cruz team. i want to talk about a few things we've learned on the show in the first -- >> let's talk about the now. >> talk about the now. we talked to grover norquist about taxes. he's okay with donald trump's
plans. he trusts donald trump. we talked to bill cross tokrist. he says there's a 50/50 chance there's a viability third-party candidate in the general election. that's pretty high. as a trump supporter, what's your level of concern right now that that could really happen? >> i don't think that's going to happen at all. you know, what's fascinating to me is if you go back to that first debate when they were pushing donald trump very hard to take the pledge, and he was very honest an his reservations, and then he ended up skcoming around, signing the pledge to support whoever the republican nominee is and that was the establishment's way to try to force him into a box when the establishment thought there's no way but an establishment candidate can win, and now that that's not the case, you have the establishment running around and trying to find these third parties. jeb bush, who has proven to not be a man of his word who always had said he would support the nominee is now out there saying he's looking for a third-party option. he won't support the nominee.
we've all heard mitt romney is out there looking for a third-party option. so the pure establishment figures are running around and they're doing things that are going to be so monumentally bad for the republican party and they don't understand where america is, and they're leaving the republican party. they might as well just sign up and be democrats at this point because all they're going to do is elect hillary clinton if they do that. >> kevin, do you think that's the case? do you think it would be monumentally bad? bill kristol says not. he says he thinks a third-party candidate would have a viable chance. >> well, donald trump won the nomination fair and square, but he has not united the party. the party is simply not together. people have many questions about what kind of policies he's going to pursue. he's now in favor of raising taxes and we already know his issues on trade and everything else. so, you know, i think there's still a lane there. whether it's a third party or it's, you know, just a lane of disaffected republicans that
aren't going to support donald trump, they're out there. donald trump needs to convince them to come on board his candidacy, and if not, you know, i think they either stay home or do back something else. >> jackie, where are you currently on the unity schmunity scale? more unity or less? >> it really seems like we're headed toward a convention that's the thanksgiving dinner where everybody is fighting about grandma's will but weeb going to have a good thanksgiving and nobody is going to talk about it. it doesn't seem like there's going to be a lot of give on either one's side. there's an impasse because donald trump seems to be making some of his policy decisions on the fly. when you have someone like paul ryan who has had the same policy positions for a very long time, has been fighting for 20 years for a lot of the same things. it's a hard thing to come together when you have two sides that are saying they're not going to bend. >> one position he's moved on is all winter long he was saying he
would support the republican nominee and right now he's not, at least not yet. >> and then, and then. guys, stick around. a lot more to come, including donald trump, he once defended bill clinton during his white house scandal but now trump is calling hillary clinton an enabler of bill clinton's infidelity. fair game? and north carolina files a lawsuit now against the justice department over the so-called bathroom law. this just hours before the state was told to offer a solution or else. we have new details ahead. ♪ share the joy of real cream... ...with reddi-wip.
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destroyed not by him, but by the way that hillary clinton treated them after everything went down. >> that's donald trump accusing hillary clinton of being an enabler of her husband's marital infidelities. that was this weekend. this this morning is how he justified those attacks a short time ago on cnn. >> he was impeached. he was impeached. and then he lied about it. he said nothing happened with monica lewinsky and then he said, sorry, folks, it actually did happen. and the guy was impeached for lying. >> all of that can be true -- >> listen, she can't talk about me because nobody respects women more than donald trump. >> back with us now, jeff dewit dewitdewitt jackie cue sin sich akucinich a.
on this line of attack, how should hillary clinton respond? >> i don't think she should. there's just no place for this type of discourse in this election. i know that donald trump continues to try to make a way, but she's going to have to take the higher road. there is no way that you win getting in the mud with the pig. you just can't. and he is a pig. he's a chief nis. he's misogynistic. he's clearly demonstrated over time he's not a lover of women. he loves the hispanics with his taco bowl and loves women based on what he said monday, wednesday and thursday but tuesday, and friday he hates those pig. look at the face. don't really believe that guys. so i think he's got a real problem here and hillary clinton only muddies the water if she gets in that with him. >> you know, kevin, i want to ask you as a republican who watched mitt romney go through your entire roster of opponents, what advice would you give to hillary clinton? what lessons should she learn
from the republican primaries as she does turn to deal with donald trump? >> well, if we've learned anything, it's that donald trump is not going to play by any conventional rules and that includes going after bill clinton on his personal issues from 15, 20 years ago. he's going to bring up every attack he can. he's going to circulate every conspiracy theory probably that he can on the clintons. he's going to rehash the clinton -- all the clinton issues from the '90s and before that probably i would bet. so i mean he's going to come at them from every side and they're going to have to be completely ready for it, and i don't know honestly whether or not the old playbook that they've used for now 20, 30 years of hillary playing kind of a victim card in this is still going to work. we don't know that yet and we'll have to see if she -- i think she's going to continue to do that. we'll see if continues to work though. >> and that's interesting, jeff, because, and angela you can jump in after i get jeff's take on this, because as kevin is pointing to, past attempts at taking this on, every time
hillary clinton is attacked along this vein, she's come out winning. she's come out looking better. do you think -- how is that going to be different this time? >> well, i think it is already playing a role in why she's struggling so much to win the democrat nomination as we speak. >> why do you think that's the case? that's definitely one area that bernie sanders isn't going. >> no, he isn't going there but the narrative is out there everywhere. you can soo he it everywhere. the clintons, you know, because of these kind of scenarios have been the subject of countless jokes. we all know jokes about these topics that go back to -- some of them back to the '90s. they're household references that we use to some of these names that were involved, and so, you know, she has a problem, and i think she should address it, but she has a lot of other political hit men around her that will do her dirty work and when you look teb previous guest who said she shouldn't get in the mud and say anything and then goes and slanders donald trump all over the place, when you have people that will come
on and do the dirty work -- >> those are his words. he slandered himself. >> angela -- >> i'm not though. >> angela -- hang on, jeff. let angela put a button on this and i want to shift subjects to jackie because we just got a bit of news in. >> i think a couple things. one is i know it's really hard for donald trump surrogates and supporters to understand that he actually continues to lie. there's a big pinocchio story about this, topic after topic, thing after thing. he's been a clear chauvinist and its his words. there's a whole ad where women are reading his words. these are his words. that's not slander. if you want to talk about somebody slandering someone, perhaps you should look at your candidate. >> we just got word from the "milwaukee journal sentinel" a reporter interviewed paul ryan hand has been tweeting some of that interview. the rorner asked paul ryan asked he would step down as convention
chair if donald trump asked and paul ryan said, i'll do whatever he asks me to do. jackie, that's kind of interesting. >> it is interesting. we'll have to see what happens on thursday. i mean, donald trump has had a little bit of a history of being very brash and has a lot of bravado in public but when he actually sits down with these players behind closed doors he's reasonable and talks to them just like people. so we'll have to see. i would be surprised if it came to that because while paul ryan doesn't hold as many cards as donald trump, he certainly does have control of another sector of the party that donald trump, you know, if he actually is serious about unifying he's going to need. >> he also -- also coming out of this interview, this reporter says that speaker ryan tells me he's steadfastly opposed to a third-party candidate even if it is mitt romney. kevin, i mean, bill kristol, that was his big hope, his final hope, and paul ryan saying not going to happen.
>> well, bill kristol and ben sasse and a few others -- and the never trump crowd are still i think very interested in trying to explore whether or not that's possible. you know, there's probably 20% of the party right now that does not want to get behind donald trump or is either trying to figure out how they can or looking for an alternative and that number could grow or shrink depending what donald trump ends up doing and who else gets in, but, look, paul ryan is doing what he's got to do. he's going to meet with him on thursday. we'll see how that meeting goes. i think there could be accommodations on both sides. they'll never agree on perfectly everything, but we'll see how his tone is and we'll see how that meeting goes. >> countdown to the ryan primary. all right. kevin, angela, jackie, jeff, thanks all so much for being with us. >> thanks, you guys. >> thank you. there is breaking news today. the department of justice has been trying to force north carolina to make a decision over its controversial bathroom law. the state just responded with a lawsuit of its own. cancer...
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north carolina just upped the ante with a showdown of washington with the so-called bathroom bill. the governor responding to a justice department deadline to remedy what the government calls a violation of the civil rights act. >> cnn legal analyst paul callan is here to discuss it first but let's go to martin savage to tell us what just happened. >> what happened is the governor of north carolina has said, look, i got a threat from the department of justice. that's what he felt it was. the deadline was today for him to respond and he responded by filing a lawsuit against the federal government. essentially, he's arguing that the federal government is overreaching here with its use of the 1964 civil rights act. take a look at the quote put out by the governor when he filed this suit. the obama administration is bypassing congress by attempting to rewrite the law and set restroom policies for public and private employers across the country, not just north carolina. he goes on to say that this is a national issue here, and this is
what north carolina is trying to frame here in their lawsuit is to say, it is not just about this state. bathrooms and transgender people are an issue that are going to be faced across this nation. it needs to be decided on a federal level. make no mistake, billions of dollars are at stake here. federal money, which the government said it could have withheld if north carolina did not come back in compliance with the civil rights act. now, it's going to go to a court. john, kate? >> all right, marntin. stand by with us. this goes to which court who will decide what, exactly? >> it's interesting because we're talking about a north carolina state law, but this is a federal lawsuit. and essentially, the governor of north carolina is saying to the federal court, listen. the feds are threatening to cut off funding for us because we're in violation of civil rights laws in the united states and we think they're wrong. we would like an opinion from the court as to whether or not
this, our funds, could be cut off for gender discrimination if we say that transgender people can, in fact, use the restrooms of their choice. so it's kind of an opinion question to the federal court. >> where does it go now? >> well, first of all, will the federal court give this opinion? federal courts don't like to do it because they don't want to be bothered in thousands of lawsuits where people have these questions about if i did this, would it be legal, if i did that, would it be legal? usually the federal courts say, wait until you get sued. this is such a big national question though. it's hard to say. maybe they could decide to grant declaratory judgment. maybe they could say, the feds have the right to sue you and you better repeal that law. >> when it's a question of state law running into federal law, that is when ultimately the supreme court. >> my bet, by the way, is they will decline the declaratory judgment because they don't like
to do it and one other thing i'll throw at you. the fourth circuit, which is a federal court, it's the federal appeals court that covers a large geographic section of the country including north carolina, has already recently handed down the decision that suggests they believe transgender people are protected by federal civil rights laws. so a strong argument can be made here that the federal court has already weighed in on this and i'm talking about a court one level below the u.s. supreme court. >> quickly, any sense of timing here, paul? >> you'll hear this declaratory judgment action, i think, heard fairly quickly. within the next couple of months, i would think. which is fast by court standards. >> absolutely. not over for sure. great to see you, paul. martin, you as well. we appreciate it. coming up still, a fire larger than new york city with the smoke trail from canada to florida and it's growing more unpredictable. a live report straight ahead. new patented ensure enlive has hmb plus 20 grams of protein to help rebuild muscle.
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i'm ashleigh banfield and welcome to "legal view." donald trump, the presumptive gop nominee is taking up a new mantle today. king of debt. in an interview on cnn's "new day," trump expounded on a national debt reduction idea that experts say is doable in the business world, but unprecedented and probably impossible in government. have a listen to what donald trump told our chris como. >> we can buy back debt. people say i want to buy debt and default on debt and these people are crazy. this is the united states government. first of all, you never have to default. so there's never a default. but the point is it was reported in t in "the new york times". >> you would go to creditors and make them take less. >> and other places that i