tv CNN Newsroom With Poppy Harlow CNN May 15, 2016 2:00pm-3:01pm PDT
third-party candidate now entering the race. the "washington post" reporting this morning mitt romney and a, quote, band of exasperated republicans are actively searching for an independent willing to challenge trump. the only problem, no potential candidates are saying yes. those in the no thanks box include billionaire and dallas mavericks owner mark cuban. he tells cnn this, quote, i think the time is right for a technology literate entrepreneur to run for president. the issue for any such candidate is that the process is broken. it's a circus rather than a learning process for all involved, end quote. this as house speaker paul ryan opens up about his struggle to find common ground with trump. >> it is no secret that donald trump and i have had some disagreements. it's no secret that we from time
to time clash on an issue or two. that happens with people. the question is, can we put together a process that really actually helps get our party unified. >> aides for trump and ryan are scheduled to sit down together this week and talk policy. ryan says gop unity could take some time. right now, donald trump is just being a dad. both me and vice president joe biden are at the same commencement ceremony. let's go to kristen holmes at the university of pennsylvania. how is the republican national committee now reacting to word of this thirty-party effort to topple trump. >> reporter: as we saw last week, several republicans trying to rally the party around donald trump including republican national committee chairman reince priebus who arranged and mediated a sit down between
speaker ryan and the presumptive nominee to work out some of these differences we just heard mentioned. priebus continued his uniting effort today when asked about this independent candidate. here's what he had to say. >> they can try to hijack another party and get on the ballot. but look, it's a suicide mission for our country. what it means is you're throwing down not just eight years of the white house, but potentially 100 years on the supreme court and wrecking this country for many generations. and so i think that's the legacy these folks will leave behind. i think it's very dangerous and there's other ways to get assurances on the things that they're worried about. >> reporter: you know, and as speaker ryan works to find common ground with donald trump, he has yet to endorse the nominee. however, he did praise him today saying that he should at least get credit for bringing more
voters to the republican party. >> kristen, let's talk about tonight's graduation ceremony. this must be a security nightmare with both trump and biden there. tell us about it. >> reporter: well, actually, you might have been able to just hear those dogs barking behind me. that is the k-9 unit. both of these men have their own secret service details and motorcades. security has shut down several areas of the campus. university officials worked with parents and friends of these 1,500 students that are graduating today, asking them to come early to make sure they got through that security line and were able to see their friends and family graduate. >> all right. thank you so much. let's talk it all over with our panel, ben howe, contributing editor for red state.com. also with us, penny, author of
"feisty and feminine." ben, to you first. let's talk about these efforts now to recruit a third-party candidate. we know romney tried to woo nebraska senator ben sass. ben, you're a conservative. you don't support trump. who's on your list of ideal third-party candidates? >> well, i would love to see ben sass realize he has sort of a duty right now to step up to the plate. i think a lot of these politicians looking at the situation believing that they don't want to be on the titanic. reince even said that this would be a suicide mission. for people like me who have been very never trump from the beginning and believe he could damage the party as he defines conservatism very inadequately. i am of the opinion that whatever can stop trump is what we should do.
>> is it too late for anyone as a third-party candidate to get into the race and be able to be in a position to succeed? >> i have a little bit of a different view on that that's not very popular which is as long as he hurts trump i'm happy. >> to be okay with a hillary clinton or bernie sanders becoming president instead. >> i think okay is a strong word. i've accepted the situation. it's the same with the sproiupr court. they've been trying to use the sproi supreme court as the trump cad card for a while now. >> i see you shaking your head, penny. >> well, that's right. you know, you can put me in the still undecided and looking for assurances. but i'll tell you one thing that is -- i'm unequivocal about and that is hillary clinton. she is unacceptable to us. it's a real issue the fact that the next administration will point between one and four supreme court sometimes.
as unpredictable as donald trump is, hillary clinton is incredibly predictable. i know that she does not align with my values, with my believes, with the policies and principles that concern women for american members support. we need to be realistic about this. donald trump was not my first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and so on choice. unfortunately, i think the party is faced with what we have and we're going to have to put on our big girl pants and pull them way up. >> we're hearing a lot of people really say we need to unite. there are still a lot of republicans, they just can't do it. listen to this. we'll talk on the backside. >> you know how you make america great again? tell donald trump to go to hell. >> donald trump is a phony, a fraud. >> our country deserves better than this. >> i have rejected a lot of what mr. trump has said. >> i'm going to support the republican team at every level
except for president. >> given what we know about donald trump, i can't vote for that guy either. >> back to you, penny. you're a former cruz supporter. he didn't even mention trump or party yienty. what do you say to those republicans who just can't get behind trump. they're on the anybody by trump train? >> i think people have to listen to their own conscience, certainly. i find it sickening that mitt romney is on this quest for a third party. i was like many other people did not support him in the last election in the primary, but came alongside and held my nose and worked very hard to get him elected. there are a lot of people in that point. so i find this ridiculous that he is, you know, now decided that he doesn't want to play along, that he doesn't like how things turned out. you know, i don't like how things turned out either. there's a lot of people that
worked very hard to get donald trump elected. they won. he lost. get over it. >> ben, do you think libertarian candidate like gary johnson might be a factor? >> i've not been a big fan of the idea of getting involved with another party that's already got so many of its own problems. i would prefer a write-in campaign. this idea that we have some sort of responsibility to the republican party ahead of our conservatism is just preposterous. >> and i'm not saying that. >> and the idea that mitt romney, who is showing that his convictions are true, the idea that that's sickening, i think that's exactly what we should expect and i want to have from our politicians. >> i'm just saying -- >> -- tough decisions in spite of what might be popular or might endanger them. >> i'm not saying that at all. i'm saying that -- >> people in my position that are saying what i'm saying,
doing what i'm doing are not -- >> let me -- let me talk about something else that's making news today. donald trump and women, the "new york times" with a scathing report, if you read it all the way through, claiming trump insulted women in the workplace and in private. also costly making comments about their looks and unwelcome roman take over tours. they interviewed some 50 people who participated in this article. here's what trump has since tweeted in response. quote, why doesn't the failing "new york times" write the real story on the clintons and women. the media's totally dishonest. penny, does trump's deflection here work? can he really brush aside the whole treatment of women issue and keep hammering on the clintons? >> he has so far. i wish the story come out before the primary season was over. i think this was probably held.
surprise. he's a bad boy. what my grandmother would call a rake. i think it is a real story that president clinton was on a plane with a pedophile 26 times. it is disgraceful the way the clintons have treated women. anyone who's paid attention since the '90s knows that. this is a losing issue for her. i would suggest that she think this very carefully because she has so much exposure on the way she has treated women, the way women were treated that came forward and talked about the way they were mistreated by bill clinton and harassed. they were treated horribly. so, you know, good luck with that line of opening attack. it's not going to work. >> ben, we know that 73% of women have an unfavorable view of trump in the last cnn poll. how much damage could this article from the "new york times" or his women issues do to
his campaign? >> well, i agree that -- i agree with penny that there's not much to be gained by the clinton administration -- by the clinton campaign trying to paint the picture of a mama sole judge nis. >> these are people he has worked with interviewed part of this article. that really does a deep dive into trump's treatment of women over the years. >> sure. but a lot of these stories happen because somebody points someone else in the right direction. what i'm saying is, whether it's the tax issue trying to get him to show his taxes or attacking him for misogyny. these are old world ways of dealing with someone. i don't know that any of these avenues will stop his campaign or make him unpopular with his fans. they look at it as an assault on him. >> penny nance and ben, thank you for your thoughts. i did not mean to interrupt you
there at the end. >> thank you. now, the presidential contenders will have another battle this week. actually, two more states who will go to the polls. watch our ail day coverage of the kentucky and oregon primaries on tuesday right here on cnn. one more programming note. anderson cooper has a special interview tomorrow night. john kasich in his first interview since leaving the race. will he endorse trump and would he consider the vp slot? that's tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on cnn ac 360. coming up, a cnn exclusive with one of donald trump's most prominent proteges and supporters. >> see, donald doesn't distinguish between women and men. >> louise sunshine on trump, the businessman, and his future as a politician. plus, isis fighters trying to storm a baghdad gas plant. how security forces held them
back despite this massive explosion. and the "el chapo" effect. how the drug lord's recent return to a prison in juarez, mexico, is reopening an old wound. tain no gluten, dairy or artificial flavors. so we invented a word that means that. shmorange! and it rhymes with the color of our bottle. to help spread the word, we made t-shirts! reach for the orange, it's 100% shmorange! i've been blind since birth. i go through periods where it's hard to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. learn about non-24 by calling 844-844-2424. or visit my24info.com. "daddy doing work",d it's funny that i've been in the news for being a dad. windows 10 is great because i need to keep organized. school, grocery shopping. my face can unlock this computer. that's crazy. macbooks are not able to do that. "hey cortana, remind me we have a play date tomorrow at noon"
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everything your family touches sticks with them. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products. because no one kills germs better than clorox. explosions, gunfire in baghdad today. ten people are dead and isis says they did it. it was a coordinated suicide car bomb attack at dawn. officials say after this car bombing, a second bomber setoff explosives inside the facility there before isis fighters tried to storm in on foot. this assault left 24 people hurt and that huge fire burning. this is just the latest deadly attack in a fresh wave of isis violence. more than 100 people have died in just the past few days. all claimed by isis. let's go live to cairo now and
cnn's ian lee. this new violence is spiking at the same time the iraqi government appears to be in turmoil. coincidence? >> reporter: isis is opportunitistic. on one hand, they're taking advantage of the political chaos. the prime minister is trying to fight the terror organization on one hand, but on the other trying to keep the government together and address political and economic problems. isis also taking advantage of the security vacuum right now, targeting shiite areas to stoke sectarian tensions. today, one iraqi official had enough. the governor of baghdad condemned security chiefs for not having enough manpower or fire power at the plant. the guards at that plant had light weapons against isis' heavy weapons.
according to the governor, it took over two hours for leelite iraqi forces to respond to the attack. tonight, the governor of iraq is calling for the chiefs responsible to be fired. >> ian lee reporting from cairo, thank you so much. we will be talking with one of the experts in the foreign affairs committee about the isis developments. coming up, a sobering reminder for the city once known as the murder capital of the world. how the people of juarez, mexico, feel about "el chapo" guzman being imprisoned nearby. we'll get a live report. flonase is the first and only nasal spray approved to relieve both itchy, watery eyes and congestion. no other nasal allergy spray can say that. go ahead, embrace those beautiful moments. flonase changes everything.
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mexico's most ruthless drug lord, the man they call "el chapo," he is not in the united states yet, but he is really close. locked up in a prison right across from el paso, texas. people in the city of juarez know they have a terrible image already and they've been trying to move past the days when blood ran in the streets because of "el chapo." but having the man back in town is not helping. cnn's nick valencia has more. >> reporter: life goes on in juarez, mexico. once desolate streets, traded
for tranquility in the city just across the river from el paso, texas. not so long ago, it was infested with drug cartels. there were more than 3,000 people murdered in one year. both of those deaths were attributed to the war between the local juarez cartel and the infamous sinaloa nation, aka, "el chapo." with "el chapo's" return, the bloody past seems very much present. this man lived through the violence brought to juarez by "el chapo" between 2009 and 2012. he says he still mourns the death of one of his construction workers killed inside his business. >> translator: there are many people very hurt by that war. there are many people still mourning. and there's still a very latent
sense of insecurity by the group of "el chapo" guzman here in juar juarez. >> reporter: even with the kingpin behind bars, some fear of return of impunity for the cartel foot soldiers still in the city. however, the mayor of juarez tells cnn, the drug lord's transfer to juarez has had no impact or relevance on the daily life of most residents. >> translator: juarez now finds itself peaceful, working and dedicated to produce goods and services. juarez is dedicated to creating better life conditions for its residents. >> reporter: there are obvious concerns that "el chapo" will escape prison for a third time. is the penitentiary capable of holding him? residents would prefer to discard the unwanted attention and move on from its violent past. the mayor of juarez tells cnn
the city has not taken added security precautions with "el chapo" back in the city. there are local reports that say local gang members have been transported out of the penitentiary "el chapo" is in. there's no timeline yet given. >> i want to ask you about reports about questions of whether "el chapo" might have actually entered the u.s. during his time when he was on the run. what more are you learning about that? >> reporter: according to his daughter, she told a local journalist that her father in 2015 crossed into the united states to visit her at the hoist that he owned. during a senate jie dish yar committee earlier this week, senator grassley was grilling about these reports. they responded saying they vetted those claims but were unable to substantiate them. that was not a satisfactory answer for senator grassley.
he's written an open letter to the department of homeland security to figure out whether "el chapo's" daughter has been interviewed in relation to this investigation how he was seemingly able to cross into theist not once, but twice st. >> wow. nick valencia, thank you. a former trump executive speaking out about her time with donald trump. this is a cnn exclusive. >> reporter: how was he as a boss? >> he was never a boss. >> how was he -- >> he was never a boss. he was a leader. >> why she says the glass ceiling for women was only 2 feet high when it came to working for the billionaire businessman. hmmmmmm.....
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fort mitchell, kentucky. her campaign calling this a get out the vote event ahead of the primary coming up on tuesday. while her husband did very well in the 1990s here, hillary clinton is in a tight race with bernie sanders. we'll monitor this rally and her speech there. we'll bring you anything that really stands out. now, someone who admires hillary clinton is also one of donald trump's former proteges. louise sunshine worked for trump for 16 years. sunshine shared some of her experiences with cnn's fredricka whitfield who is joining me now. how did she describe trump in the workplace? >> well, she said he is a leader. she said he is a mentor. we talked about a range of things. how he helped shape her career at a time when women weren't always invited to the table. and whether that voice on that
25-year-old recording is that of donald trump, the man she says she knows well. >> the boardroom was in donald's head. the boardroom was all of this idea -- these ideas he had, the vision he had. and if you could buy into his vision and you were trustworthy and you were intelligent and you were proactive, proactive was the key. >> how is he as a boss? >> he was never a boss. >> that's -- how would you -- >> he was never a boss. he was a leader. it's a lot different to have a boss than a leader. he was a leader. he taught me. he mentored me. he showed me the way. >> it's an honor to have everybody here -- >> so when he started to run for president and people said to me,
oh, it's ridiculous, he's a joke, blah, blah, blah, i said, he's going to win. >> but possibly winning the presidency is still six months away with lots of room for campaign trail surprises like this newly released 25-year-old recording of a voice trump denies is his. >> you know his voice. >> when was the recording made? >> this is 52 yea25 years ago. >> that's right up my alley. >> let's listen. >> he decided that he wasn't you know, he didn't want to make a commitment. he really thought it was too soon. he's coming out of a marriage that -- and he's starting to do tremendously well financially. >> i did not hear donald's voice. >> you did not? >> not the donald i know. >> was there a john miller? do you recall a john miller? >> no, i don't know john miller. >> couple other things. would you consider donald trump a flip-flopper when he says
banning muslims -- >> no. >> -- and now he says, well it was a suggestion. does that make him a flip-flopper? should people trust his word? >> he is not a flip-flopper. what he is is -- what was it that he said on page 5 of his book. >> sometimes it pays to be a little wild. >> that is that. he was being a little wild or a lot wild. a lot of the outrageous things, wild things that he said, you will see him being different. >> so you're voting for donald trump? >> you're not supposed to ask me that question. because i'm a life long democrat. i've been a democrat since the day i went into politics. >> and you know the clintons. >> i do know them very well. and admire them.
i think watching hillary and her energy and her knowledge. i mean, she can speak to any issue at any time and knows exactly what she's talking about. i totally identify with hillary. >> in what ways? >> in that she's been a great mother a great wife. and an outstanding brilliant woman. >> will this be difficult for you to make a decision? are you torn? >> i guess the election is still several months away and i have not gotten to the point where i need to make a decision. so i haven't made one. >> so louise sunshine says she is anxious to see who, clinton or trump, if they are the
nominees, who they would select to be on their teams. that way she says she will have a better sense as to whether they have won her vote and that's likely to come after the conventions. >> so interesting to hear her insight into donald trump in the workplace, especially -- and her feeling torn, being a life long democrat considering voting republican this cycle. fredricka, thanks so much. coming up, is donald trump backing off one of his signature proposals? >> donald j. trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of muslims entering the united states. >> this is just a suggestion until we find out what's going on.
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is donald trump changing his tune on muslims in america? remember in december, he called for a total, a complete ban of muslims entering the u.s.? well, then this week, he told nbc this. >> i'm not the president right now, so anything i suggest is really a suggestion. and if i were president, i'd put in legislation and do what i have to do. i'm not softening my stance at all, but i'm always flexible on
issues. >> okay. so a lot of his critics would call this a flip-flop, right? but does he deserve any credit for softening his stance here? >> not at all. there's no softening. i have no idea what's going on. donald trump's on both sides of issue after issue. this ban on muslims. now he's saying everything is a suggestion. like at the office in the coffee break room and you put suggestions in a box. he's running for president. these are policy proposals. and i hope there's gop buyer's remor remorse. they might be upset he's not going to do -- >> let me play devil's advocate here. is it so bad to have somebody who is open minded? >> there's nothing wrong with that. you want to know the core beliefs of that person. no one can tell us the core beliefs of donald trump at this point. he literally is on both sides of the issues. i don't know if he knows the
difference between a truth and a lie at this point. from thousands of muslims cheering at 9/11, to thousands of refugees coming in. the list goes on and on. flip-flop, they're actually lies. i don't think he knows they're lies. >> i want to get your reaction on thoughts on what we heard from the president today. he gave a commencement address and brought up this idea of a muslim ban and some of the rhetoric from donald trump. listen. >> isolating or disparaging muslims, suggests they should be treated differently when it comes to entering this country, that is not just a betrayal of our values -- [ cheers and applause ] that's not just a betrayal of who we are. it would alienate the very communities at home and abroad who are our most important
partners in the fight against violent extremism. >> what do you think? >> i think president obama hits it on the head. working all of us united against isis. their number one victim are muslims. we hate them. we want to see them eliminated. this idea of pushing us away is ridiculous. and a ban on a billion muslims? it's irrational based props on bigotry or a lack of understanding of how the world works. i hope that sends a message to our fellow americans. i'm going to build a wall, ban all muslims. everything is over the top. >> this is about more than just america because we know there are muslims all around the world and the world eye is on us. you wrote something interesting, you say sadiq khan, newly elected mayor of london is donald trump's worst nightmare, quote, khan is a living,
breathing example of a person who is proudly western and proudly muslim. he doesn't hate the west or america as trump needs you to believe that all practicing muslims do. >> he needs you to believe it. if not banning a billion people because of their religion, it would be irrational and it is irrational. sadiq khan, proudly muslim. he took the oath of office ten years ago and fought for marriage equality. he's a human rights attorney. the new speaker of the german parliament, a muslim woman. they have a muslim member of the cabinet. they embrace being a muslim and embrace being -- >> -- not such a factor -- >> he needs to. his bans make no sense. if you're not afraid of every latino out there. donald trump needs you to be afraid. he might flip-flop on other things.
he wants you to be afraid to be our savior. i'm hoping americans don't fall for this bigotry and hatred. >> i want to get your take on how comedy has treated the election. everyone watches snl. let's play a clip from last night where they spoof this idea of trump pretending to be his own pr person. listen. >> mr. trump is the real life inspiration for iron man. who am i? i'm his publicist joey. no, i'm not donald trump in disguise. this is just what classy people sound like okay? >> how do you see comedy impacting this election cycle? >> i think that's great. i worked for snl for eight seasons. i think darryl hammond there trump is great.
the same way you miss jon stewart and his voice now in this election cycle. if they can turn donald trump more into a punch line, it hurts him with independent voters. forget gop supporters. that game's over. if they think donald trump's a laughing stop and are laughing at him, no longer is he the great savior that's going to protect us. he's the guy that's the punch line. that's what he was for years. we'll see. >> we'll see. great to have you. thanks so much. still coming up, pope francis raising eyebrows with comments about the possibility of female deacons. but what did he really mean and what's the reaction then in the catholic church? we'll talk to some experts. dairy or artificial flavors. vi, so we invented a word that means that. shmorange. and it rhymes with the color of our bottle. hey, baby, make it your first word! sfx: baby speak not even close.
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pope francis makes another potentially groundbreaking statement saying the church should look into the idea of women becoming deacons. now, this is a big deal. it is controversial because right now women are not allowed to serve in that role. let's discuss the significance. professor of new testament and early christianity at university of notre dame and president of the jesuit conference
do you think this could be reality or a symbolic gesture? >> if women deacons are allowed in the church, that would be a huge move. all he said so far is he's willing to look in to it. he's going to study it. he was told, a enthis is true, there were women deacons in this early church and would he allow women deacons in the church today and he said it is something the church should look in to. right now it is a lot of potential. but pope francis has been on record opposing female priests. we know deacons have a lot of similar roles as priests. i'm catholic. i don't understand why women shouldn't be priests or deacons. other branches have female pastors including lutherans. what's your take away? >> this is a theological
question. the church has had in its history a tradition of all-male priesthood. remembering how christ chose men as his disciples and that a priest acts as jesus christ. the pope wrote about it and he was asked on his flight home from rio in 2013 and when he left the united states in september and each time he said no. the church has already defined this. the question of deacons is new. he recognizes in the early church, if we read saint paul's letter to the romans, there is evidence that women served in the ministry which is like being a deacon. that's why he said it would be useful to study this further thus opening the question. >> let's talk about how pope francis has really transformed the identity of the catholic
church, if not through actually installing new rules he's certainly least thrown out ideas that challenge the traditional catholic ways. softened his stance on abortion or talked about having mercy for women who had abortions. he's opened up the door for more mercy and grace for people who have divorces. how do you think he's been as a pope to women? >> the tone of the church has been very different. so he's been softer and gentler. he will listen to other people's ideas an he said we don't always have to talk about abortion and same-sex marriage. we can talk about poverty and helping people and opening the church. when it comes to women, he's been a little less progressive. he maintained the line on contraception and forceful in saying there will be no women priests and once described women as the strawberries on top of
the cake when he described women's roles in the church. he called for heightened leadership roles for women and how important they are, although often in their roles as mothers. >> one last question to you, if this study comes back and concludes women should be allowed to be deacons, what do you think the pope will do? >> he's not afraid of the question. he didn't immediately bat it down which is a positive sign. he was asked about the commission and he expressed his own interest in the question. so i think he will listen closely to the commission. he's consultive. while he has an interest in and passion he depends on bishops, theologians and those who serve him. he's not afraid of asking a question like this. i think he will be open minded and constructive in moving forward, in advancing what the
commission recommends. >> thank you to both of you. >> thank you. still ahead, a preview of tonight's brand new episode of "parts unknown" with anthony bourdain. he's in big sky country exploring life in montana. stay right there. you know when i first started out, it was all pencil and paper. the surface pro is very intuitive. i can draw lightly, just like i would with a real pencil. i've been a forensic artist for over 30 years. i do the composite sketches which are the bad guy sketches. you need good resolution, powerful processor because the computer has to start thinking as fast as my brain does. i do this because i want my artwork to help people.
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on tonight's new episode of "parts unknown," anthony bourdain meets with native americans to learn why horses are so important to life and sports in that region. >> montana, many have come to claim their peace over the years bmp the prospectors and explorers there were the plains indians. ♪ they have been master horsemen since they adopted span penitentiary introduced mustangs in the 18th century. >> the general called the native americans the sen tars of the plains. >> better known as "the crow" they were once part of a larger tribe. centuries ago they wandered or were pushed by conflict with the black feet, cheyenne and dakota before settling here in the river valley. >> the horse became everything to the people.
>> reporter: he grew up and ranching and raising horses here which is the exact spot where general custer had the worst day of his life. he raises horses for rodeo,er for riding and for this -- indian relay racing. >> the ability on those kids are amazing. the competition is intense. >> they travel all over though compete at this skull cracking bone snappingly dangerous sport. former allies will and former blood enemies alike. >> requires a lot of courage. >> i'll bet. >> saddle up for "parts unknown montana" tonight only on cnn. just about 6:00 eastern. thank you for rolling with me. you are live in the cnn newsroom. great to have you here. donald trump's unity effort might be hitting another road
block as republicans try to wrangle their party together. there are signs of fresh splinters that could rip the gop apart. i'm talking about a possible third party candidate entering the race. the "washington post" reported this morning mitt romney and a quote band of exasperated republicans are actively searching for an independent willing to challenge trump. the only problem, no potential candidates are saying yes. those in the know say mark cuban, he's saying he was recruited to run but he believes it's simply too late. he tells cnn quote, i think the time is right for technology literal entrepreneur to run for president. the issue is the process is broken. it's a circus rather than a learning process for all involved. one of the most powerful republicans in the country said a third party effort to topple donald trump is doomed to fail. listen. >> they can try to