tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN November 20, 2016 10:00am-11:01am PST
this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we will start today's show with henry kissinger, the former secretary of state. he just met with the president-elect, and i will ask him about the challenges of facing a president trump. and donald trump says defeating isis is the major priority for his incoming administration's foreign policy. can he do it? >> the enemy is much tougher than they thought. >> he has called the effort to retake mosul a total disaster. is it? i will ask a man who has been
intimately involved in the fight. antony blinken the number two man at the state department. and donald trump's choice for national security adviser, general michael flynn. he was critical of president obama in an interview i did with him last year. >> we failed to understand the enemy that we faced. >> so what is his plan for isis? you can listen in. >> finally, a lesson donald trump might want to learn from japan in order to truly make america great again. you will want to see this. >> but first here is my take. much of the world has been shocked and dismayed by donald trump's win, but there are those who are delighted. this was a victory for the forces which oppose globalization, are fighting illegal migration and are favor of clean ethnic states, declared global dawn, greece's far right party sometimes characterized as neo nazi, the deputy leader of
france's right wing national front party historically seen as ultranationalist and anti-semitic was exultant as well. their world is crumbling, ours is being built he said. now, you cannot be judged by those who approve of your actions but it's worth trying to understand what it is that trump's admirers are celebrating. in some cases trump's appeal is that he's anti-political correctness and anti-establishment, for others it is a sense of kinship or supposed kinship among strong men who are unconcerned with human rights. serious dictator bashar al assad called trump a natural ally. robert mugabe has been similarly hopeful. a full page editorial in a state run paper there hailed the election of the mighty trump and the 92-year-old dictator has reportedly described trump as a friend. no doubt he hopes that a trump administration will end western sanctions against zimbabwe.
what unified trump's foreign admirers is the idea that the existing global order is rotten and should be torn down. all the european parties cheering trump's victory seek the destruction of the european union and the more close-knit community of shared interests and values. they are almost all strikingly pro russian because they see in vladimir putin's russia a country that stands in opposition to the current international order and seeks to undermine it. many groups take covert and overt support from russia and benefit from the kremlin's cyberwarfare. but what is this globalism to which these people are so opposed? after 1945 in the wake of a great depression and two world wars western nations established an international system that was characterized by rules that respected national sovereignty, allowed for the flourishing of global commerce and respected rights and liberties.
this order has resulted in the longest period of peace among the world's major powers, broad based economic growth that created mass middle classes in the west, the revival of europe and development of poor countries lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. it also encouraged the spread of more freedom to more people than ever before in history. the american role in all of this was pivotal. washington set the agenda and provided the security which was about more than just deterring the soviet union and other aggressive powers. poland's former foreign minister explains, america's influence and its commitments have been our security blanket. they have allowed europe's national rivalries to stay dormant. if you take away those guarantees, europe could get very unstable. and remember, the european union is the world's biggest market and america's largest trading partner. for the united states globalism has provided enormous
advantages, with 5% of the world's population the u.s. dominates the global economy from technology to education to finance to clean energy. millions and millions of high paying american jobs are dependent on trade and foreign investment and that number is growing fast. america maintains the world's reserve currency, giving it a huge economic advantage. the benefits of growth in globalization have not been shared equally and the pace of change causes cultural anxiety everywhere. but these are reasons to invest in people. upgrade their skills and better integrate communities. they are not reasons to destroy the most peaceful and productive international system ever devised in human history. for more go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "washington post" column this week. let's get started. ♪
this week, henry kissinger continued a tradition that started with john f. kennedy. 55 years ago kissinger signed off as a part-time consultant to president kennedy on foreign policy. he has advised every president since up to and including president-elect trump whom he met with on thursday. he joins me now. so what was your dominant impression from the meeting? >> it was of a determined president, a president elect, who is making the transition from being a campaigner to being a national strategist and was trying to inform himself on the various aspects of the current situation.
>> you've seen many president elects come into office. this one seems quite unusual. what it do you see as the challenges and opportunities for a president trump? >> this president elect it's the most unique that i have experienced in one respect. he has absolutely no baggage. he has no application to any particular group because he has become a president on the basis of his own strategy and a program he put before the american public that his competitors did not present. so that is a unique situation.
>> you say he has no baggage. you're right in the sense that he doesn't come out of a particular foreign policy tradition or school, but he has said a whole number of things during the campaign and one thing he has been very insistent on is protectionism. he's talked about, you know, labeling china currency manipulator, 35%, 45% tariffs, renegotiating trade deals. you know china very well. how will they react if the president labels them a currency manipulator? >> you understand i'm not here as a spokesman of the president elect. i'm here to answer questions of my impressions of -- there is the impact of globalization and i wrote minor things about that earlier. not enough attention was paid to the fact that it was bound to have winners and losers and that
the losers were bound to try to express themselves in some kind of political reaction. in my view in the present situation one has to i'm certain insist on nailing him into positions that he had taken in the campaign on which he doesn't insist. if he insists on them, then of course this agreement will become expressed, but if he develops another program and leaves the question open of what he said in the campaign, one should not make that the desired development. >> you're saying very nicely
that we should welcome some flip-flops? >> i think we should give him an opportunity to develop the positive objectives that he may have and to discuss -- and to discuss those. and we've gone through too many decades of tearing incumbent administrations apart, and it may happen again, but we shouldn't begin that way. and we shouldn't end up that way, either, but -- so that would be my basic view. >> donald trump has often said that he would like to make a deal with putin, that he thinks that he and putin could make a deal. i think you are the american who has met with vladimir putin more one-on-one than almost anybody else and more than 25 meetings.
what would you recommend that trump look for in that meeting? >> there's a difference between commercial deals and foreign policy deals. commercial deals are usually between entities that have one particular objective that they share or some crisis that they want to reduce. they deal with that, some to an agreement and never see each other again. >> a single transaction. >> exactly, it's a single transaction. in foreign policy you meet the same people over and over again, and so you have to build not only for one deal, you have to build for a deal that produces an impetus for further deals along the way. putin is convinced -- first of all, he's convinced it's not --
he doesn't think the transformation that occurred was an american victory in the cold war. it was that the russians got rid of communists on their own. and in his image america then took advantage of this by moving the defense line from the middle of europe over 1,000 miles to within 300 miles of moscow. so then it is a question for him to regain respect to the test that any administration would face and this administration of course would face is is it possible to have a dialogue with putin that starts from the premise that he's taken seriously and i think the previous administration
sometimes had a condescending rhetoric in dealing -- in dealing with him. >> trump's election does represent it seems to me, a part of the american public that does feel that the united states has borne these imperial burdens or these international burdens and that we get nothing for it, allies don't do their fair share, free trade is something that doesn't work for them. given those foreign policy impulses, what does a president trump do? does he cater to them entirely? does he, you know, move back to a more traditional internationalist position? >> what is striking about his campaign is that he did seem to have a strategy to which he stuck regardless of the pressures that came on him. now, the job would be to develop
a strategy that is sustainable, that meets the concerns that have appeared during the campaign, but that can be linked to the -- to some of the main themes of american foreign policy because with all the criticism, all of us have made for the entire post world war ii period, the freedom and peace of the world have been maintained by america primarily. and so this ultimate mission has to be preserved, though in a different manner and in a different context and in a perhaps less assertive manner than has been the case in previous periods.
>> henry kissinger, always a pleasure. come back when you're 94. next on gps, trump says he's going to defeat isis. can he do it? we'll talk to the outgoing deputy secretary of state antony blinken on the battle against isis. later on in the show you will hear from trump's newly named national security adviser general michael flynn on his plan to defeat isis.
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called the effort a total disaster, but has it been? joining me now to talk about mosul and the broader fight against isis, something trump has been highly critical of is the united states deputy secretary of state antony blinken the second most powerful man in the state department. tony, thanks for coming on. >> thanks, fareed. good to be here. >> first tell me what is the state of the battle in mosul? when it began people thought it would fall relatively quickly. it has not been that quick. >> fareed, this is a major turning point in the fight against daesh or isil. just a couple years ago daesh was at the gates of baghdad, threatening the kurdish capital of erbil in iraq and controlled the border between syria and turkey. we are on the verge of taking away the self-declared caliphate, mosul in iraq and ultimately raqqah in syria. that will major practical and psychological affects on daesh. the campaign for mosul is tough, it's getting into the city, it's getting into block to blockhouse
to house fighting, but the iraqi security forces combined with the kurdish peshmerga are doing remarkably well backed by the coalition. we will succeed in taking mosul. >> when? >> i think this is a matter of certainly weeks and perhaps months. i don't want to put a time limit on it. again, as you get to the heart of the city it gets tougher and tougher. >> in the past when the iraqi army has liberated towns from isis it is has run into a problem which is that the soldiers are often shiite on kurdish, the locals are sunnis and after the liberation there is a round of bloodletting or the locals feel that they have been liberated from one occupier into another and it produces all the same dissatisfactions and tensions that led to the rise of isis in the first place which is to say sunni dissatisfaction with shiite or kurdish overlords.
how do you solve that this time? >> you're factually right. you put your finger on the problem. if daesh wants to defeat it, in order for it to say defeated it requires that iraqis deal with the grievances and that there be sustainable political that give the sunnis a sense that they belong to the country and their interests are being locked out as well. what we've seen with the iraqi prime minister is a real effort to integrate the security forces to make sure that as places are liberated the forces that they then in to hold them are local forces representative of the community and we're starting to see plans for governance after cities are liberate that had reflect the communities in
question and are not an imposition from the outside. that is the critical point going forward. >> as you've heard president-elect trump has often said he would bomb the something or the other out of isis. what is your response to that? >> well, first i'd say there have been 16,000 air strikes against isis in iraq and syria over the last couple of years but we proceeded very deliberately making sure that this was the most carefully targeted campaign possible. because if you end up having civilian casualties besides being wrong and immoral you actually end up producing more extremis than you take off the battlefield. ultimately for this to succeed it has to be and it has been a locally generated effort with us in support of iraqi forces and ultimately syrian forces. >> have you seen it trying to lash out in terms of the intelligence you've seen? there was a period when it seemed like as isis was being squeezed it was trying to plan and execute some terrorist attacks in france and belgium. maybe in the united states. do you see any of that? >> yes, we do and that's the biggest concern. the biggest concern now is that as daesh core is defeated, as the self-declared caliphate is
taken away we're seeing plotting and planning that's directed at europe, at the united states, at other places around the world and they have affiliates that we've gone very hard at in different places, whether it's libya, whether it's afghanistan, pakistan, whether it is in algeria and so forth and we've gone at these affiliates but what they already are trying to develop are networks, individuals, groups of people this different countries who can take action and take terrorist attacks in these countries. that's where the information sharing, the police work, the intelligence work is so critical and that's what we're focused on. >> let me finally ask you something, tony, about the transition. the trump transition team has been speaking with foreign leaders, president-elect trump has been speaking with foreign leaders. the last we heard they had not availed themselves of the state
department to either get briefed on those leaders, to do the calls or to do the translation and note taking. is that still true? >> well, we just yesterday got the names of the state department of president-elect trump's transition team. we're very much looking forward to welcoming them. i think they will be in our building over the next couple of days. we will work closely with them. i took part in the transition from president bush to president obama. it was a model of professionalism. i worked on the nsc transition, steve hadley did an extraordinary job in making sure we were up to speed and could hit the ground running, we want to do the same thing for president-elect trump's team. this is critical because it has to be like a relay race. we're passing the baton and we want to see them up and running as they take the baton because there are too many things, especially the campaign against
daesh that are going at full throttle we can't afford any interruptions. >> if there was one piece of advice you would give what would it be? >> look, i think that the main thing is i found being part of this for many years now that you come in having maybe criticized the folks that you're succeeding and you find out that a lot of what they were doing is actually the right thing to be doing because you get all of this information that you weren't aware of when you are on the outside. we certainly found that with regard to the bush administration on a number of fronts. i suspect that the new team coming in may find that with regard to what we're doing. i would just hope that they keep an open mind, this he look at the facts, they look at the reality of the situation we're facing around the world and act accordingly. >> tony blinken, pleasure to have you on. >> thanks, fareed. from this administration to the next, in a moment you will hear from president-elect trump's pick for national security adviser, general michael flynn. what is his plan for isis? stay tuned. here? (becky) i've seen such a change in einstein since he started eating the new beneful recipe. the number one ingredient in it is beef. (einstein) the beef is fantastic! (becky) he's a very active dog. he never stops moving. he has enough energy to believe that he can jump high enough
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and a half ago for a documentary on isis i asked him about the circumstances of his departure from that job. but first i asked him about president obama's fight against isis and what he would do differently. remember as you watch this man who was so critical of president obama's advisors will now be doing the advising himself. >> is isis a threat to the core national interest of the united states? >> yes. yes. yes, i do believe that. is it existential today? probably not today. is it -- could it be an existential threat in the future? yes, i do -- i believe that. i absolutely believe that. i think that we -- we are not winning, we are participating and we need to do more to defeat
this problem than just go kill a couple more radical islamists. >> so what more? >> so i think that first is to understand what are the big challenges in this part of the world. and when you begin to look at the scale and scope of just the shear populations that have -- that have -- that are part of these countries over the last 50 to 60 years, they have had huge growth in populations. i mean, you know, they are in the tens of millions in many of these countries and this goes all the way over to west africa and certainly central asia even into indonesia to a degree. but in the wider -- in the greater middle east which i would also include east africa and parts of north africa, we have to look at, i think, number one, some type of -- of economic transformation. there has to be an economic transformation. beyond just building some more schools and trying to get these guys to go to -- you know, to learn something. i think the world right now sees the middle east and things oil
and i think that there has to be -- we have to wean our way off of that. not so much the u.s. or china or europe, but there has to be -- what's the next thing? i mean, are there other aspects of energy that can be created that can grow back to the first thing i talked about, that can achieve this economic transformation. so i think that there is an energy transformation that has to occur. absolutely. and i think the third thing is -- has to do with water. water as a means to increasing the economic health of the region. >> but you were talking about a huge transformation. >> i am. >> of the whole region, 300 million people, which would be incredibly costly, laborious, generational. i think what the obama administration is that it would
not be warranted. >> there's a lot of wealth in that region. if those countries in that region don't come to grips with what i just said, they could collapse on themselves by being subverted by the radical islamists and back to the conversation about how fast isis built up. so there was a cost post-world war ii and europe has done pretty good. so i understand what that cost is. i understand what the cost has been. i think that we have to at least consider it and it has to be seriously considered. otherwise, you know, i'm open to suggestions and, frankly, i'm one of the guys who is looking and listening and watching and
reading others who are talking about solutions because everybody keeps talking about how bad it is and how bad isis is and radical islam. we need solutions. in the 21st century, we need 21st century solutions with tools and governments are no longer just the tools that should be applied. >> why did you leave your post at the dia? >> because i was ready to retire and and i had dishss of opinion with one of my bosses and as a director of dia, you have a lot of bosses, so -- >> the reporting i've read suggests that you left because there was a disagreement over the nature of this threat. >> yeah, i would just say that i
wanted to retire and i'm happy in retirement. >> you had a more urgent view of this threat than those above you? >> i have always had an urgent view of this threat because i've seen it. >> were you pushed out of the dia? >> i was not. nope. i was not. i was asked about, you know, some things and it was a mutual agreement as to when i would depart a service to this nation. >> that sounds like a diplomatic way of -- >> it is. and i'm going to maintain the moral high ground and i've always stood on my principles and, to me, i was standing on my principles, what i believed in and it was a mutual agreement as to my departure.
and i'm a soldier deep down until you salute and you depart service. oim i'm not going to sit here and tell you that i don't miss it, but retirement is different. it's fun. >> next on gps, drain the swamp. the lobbyists will lobby donald trump into keeping them around. we'll take a rook when we come back. plus 20 grams of protein to help rebuild muscle. for the strength and energy to do what you love. new ensure enlive. always be you. we'll play something besides video games. every day is a gift especially for people with heart failure. but today there's entresto®- a breakthrough medicine that can help make more tomorrows possible. tomorrow,
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in einstein since he started the new beneful recipe. the number one ingredient in it is beef. (einstein) the beef is fantastic! (becky) he has enough energy to believe that he can jump high enough to catch a bird. (vo) try new beneful originals with beef. now with real beef as the number one ingredient. now for our what in the world segment. >> it is time to drain the swamp in washington, d.c. this is why i'm proposing a package of ethics reforms to make our government honest once again. >> that was donald trump the
candidate three weeks before the election. outlining a plan to reduce the power of lobbyists in washington. it's one of his most appealing ideas, cutting across party lines and partisan divides. president-elect trump's team has announced new rules that try to stop washington's corrupt revolving door. it's a welcome sign because trump's transition team so far has been dominated by lobbyists. while mike pence is trying to get some of the lobbyists out more than 20 were included on a list last week, many with deep ties to a wide range of industries, agriculture, transportation, energy and communications. when pressed on this apparent hypocrisy in an interview with 60 minutes trump suggested he had no choice because everybody is a lobbyist in d.c. >> you're basically saying you have to rely on them even though you want to get rid of them. >> i'm saying that they know the
system right now, but we're going to phase that out. you have to phase it out is that during the campaign while railing against lobbyists trump had surrounded himself with him, his first two campaign managers both had extensive lobbyist backgrounds, paul manafort resigned from the campaign after questions were raised about his work for pro russian oligarchs in ukraine and that he received regular payments in cash according to the reporting in "new york times." corey lewandowski spent almost a decade as a registered lobbyist in washington, d.c. rudy guiliani made millions advocating for foreign clients. mike flynn also belongs in this group. "the daily caller" reported this week that the consulting firm founded by the former director of the defense intelligence agency is lobbying for a company with ties to turkey's government. if trump is serious about draining the swamp he will need to put in place rules about people's pasts and not just
their future and ensure that people don't skirt the rules by calling themselves lawyers or consultants while engaging in lobbying. while trump has added he should think about campaign finance restrictions because it is politicians need to incessantly raise all that money that gives power to the lobbyists in the first place. finally as i've long advocated a short simple tax code would eliminate all the deductions and credits and special rules which are what congressmen sell when they ask you for money. it's a tall order because it's a huge problem. but unless trump tackles it on all fronts in the battle between the drain and the swamp, the swamp will win. my next guest is the president of a nation so worried that russia might invade that is recently issued a paper to its citizens entitled "prepare to survive emergencies and war. will a trump/putin relationship
embolden russia even more? will russia's behavior get even worse? when we come back. (my hero zero by lemonheads) zero really can be a hero. get zero down, zero deposit, zero due at signing, and zero first month's payment on select volkswagen models. this black friday at the volkswagen sign then drive event.
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how would you react if your country was invaded? it's a question that most of us have probably never considered but the nation of lithuania wanted its citizens to think long and hard about it so they issued a 75-page pamphlet titled "prepare to survive emergencies and war." why? because they share a border with the russian enclave where russia has militarized all of the baltics and they have been on edge since 2014. so will trump's budding relationship with russia ratchet up these fears? madam president, pleasure to have you on.
let me ask you first, based on what you heard during this campaign, do you have concerns about donald trump's support for nato and support for the baltic republic and security in particular? >> for us, we have the challenge of security that is equally important for everybody in the world and for the united states to stay a leader in the world on security. it's utmost important and we don't want the united states to change this position. >> you describe russia as a terror state after its invasion of ukraine after the annexation of crimea. describe why you used such tough language. >> we do see exercises and behavior in our air space. we see the behavior in the
baltic sea so of course behavioral in ukraine, all this added to russia's behavior allowed us to describe it as aggressive and unpredictable and very dangerous behavior. now we see the probably largest tensions between the west and russia, tensions in relations after post cold war and that's exactly what allowed us to describe such kind of behavior as it was described. >> do you worry that the security of eastern europe might be -- might be sacrificed in order to get some kind of deal or new relationship between the united states and russia? >> it's not only about how america needs to be supportive and helpful, but we would like to see america really still
important in the world and especially in -- in security architecture. and not withdrawing from the international agreements or international security agreements because if that will happen america will not be great at all and will lose its position what it has to date. >> what do you think vladimir putin's goals are with regard to your part of the world? >> we can guess, everybody, and it's probably not for me to guess it publicly, but we are ready for anything. we know how unpredictable our neighborhood is, how dangerous it is, but we're used to living in this environment. we are investing into our security, into our defense, into our international relations. that's the first. we will never repeat the pre war, second war situation, that we were not defending ourselves and allowed russian troops to go for our territories, that will never happen again.
and we know how to live with this neighbor. but to predict and to guess probably no sense. we need to be ready for anything. >> you were occupied by the soviet union and during that long occupation the united states kept faith with the baltic republics and they never recognized that occupation and eventually you were liberated. do you worry that america -- that that kind of american commitment to the security of small embattled nations in eastern europe is now being called into question? >> no, for us united states has always been the grantor of democracy, of peace, and freedom. and for all of the world, i think, not only for us. without such kind of hope the world really will lose the most important thing for development for security, the hope to be free, the hope to be independent and the grantor, the largest
one, was united states and after elections, immediately, i said it's no matter what kind of administration united states will have. what is important for us that we trust america. american people. that's our stance and how we saw in our history and how we will see united states. >> madam president, a real pleasure to have you on. best of luck. >> thank you. what powers the digital world? communication. like centurylink's broadband network that gives 35,000 fans a cutting edge game experience. or the network that keeps a leading hotel chain's guests connected at work, and at play. or the it platform that powers millions of ecards every day for one of the largest greeting card companies. businesses count on communication, and communication counts on centurylink.
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do you know what the salary is? >> $400,000. you're giving up. >> i'm not going to take the salary. i'm not taking it. >> president-elect trump has pledged to give up his $400,000 salary. now, a president's compensation is set by statute forbes notes, so he will likely have to accept it before returning it or giving it away. and it brings me to my question: which of the following two presidents chose to donate their presidential salaries to charity? george washington and fdr, teddy roosevelt and ronald reagan,
dwight eisenhower and jfk, or herbert hoover and jfk? stay tuned and we will tell you the correct answer. this week's book of the week is "the man who knew, the life and times of alan greenspan" by sebastian malabi. gre greenspan may be the most powerful unelected american of the last 50 years. this is a wonderfully written intelligent intimate biography of his climb up the pinnacles of power. it's also a vivid portrait of the american establishment as it moved right from the 1970s to the 1980s and 1990s. now for the last look. two tuesdays ago many americans headed to the polls while halfway around the world some people in japan had trouble heading to work. this giant sinkhole roughly 100 feet wood and 50 feet deep opened on a five-lane street in a southwestern city.
the following tuesday as many americans were still reeling over the election result their counterparts in japan were back to normal. that enormous hole was filled in, utilities were restored and the road was perfectly resurfaced all within a week. japan's shinzo abe this week became the first world leader to meet in person with president-elect donald trump wanting reassurance on u.s./japan relations. maybe trump should have taken advantage of the opportunity and asked him for some road repair tips as well. >> the correct answer to the gps challenge question is d, herbert hoover and john f. kennedy donated their presidential salaries to charity. george washington who was also a very rich man initially planned to refuse his salary, which was $25,000 in 1789 but he decided to accept it in order to set an example for future presidents. if trump donates his salary to charity the american public
could see it on his 2017 tax returns if he decides to release them. if president trump continues to keep his tax returns secret he will be breaking yet another longstanding presidential tradition. thanks to all of you for being a part of my program this week. i will see you next week. hello. thank you very much for joining me. i'm fredericka whit field. >> dronald trump is in the mids of another busy day. trump and pence started the day today by attending a service at a nearby presbyterian church. trump has meetings scheduled with at least a dozen people today as he looks for candidates to fill his cabinet. the names include new jersey govern