tv CNN Newsroom With Poppy Harlow CNN December 4, 2016 2:00pm-3:01pm PST
better california. hi, everyone. top of the hour. i'm poppy harlow in new york. 5:00 here in new york. 2:00 p.m. out west. tonight, we continue to follow the breaking news of an already horrific death toll of a warehouse fire in oakland, california. we have now learned that the death toll is much, much higher than first reported. we know that at least 30 people are now confirmed dead. that figure updated a short time ago by the sheriff's department officials who call it an astronomical number, happened late friday night in this building. a warehouse converted into a shared artist space and a music show venue. the roof caught fire, caved in
and clopsed on to the first and the crowd below. stephanie elam is there in oakland tonight. i know throughout the day some emergency officials updating us here and there with more information they're learning. it's been incredibly hard for them to identify the number of victims and the identities. what else can you tell us at this hour? >> reporter: that's exactly the situation here, poppy. what they're saying is some of the people that lost their lives easy to identify and others are not and asking family members, if you think your loved one may have been here to preserve some of their dna, a hair brush or toothbrush in a clean paper bag and set it aside so officials when they come looking for someone they can connect that information and that could take weeks to identify who those people are but for other people they're able to identify them with identification, fingerprints, dental records. it is a slow pain stakingly slow process to do this and going through the space with bucket by
bucket, shovels. cleaning out the area slowly to make sure they don't miss anyone that may be there. at this point, they say they have gotten 20% in the building and the fire went through the entire building and they want to make sure that they don't miss any of the evidence or anyone who may have lost their life there, poppy. >> why is it such a unique challenge for these firefighters? i mean, yesterday the officials were saying in a press conference that we aired on this show, they were having a tough time getting in the door. in part because of falling debris. >> reporter: right. i mean, the roof caved in. there are only a couple of entrances or exits to get out of the building and that one point the fire so hot they were having a difficult time even getting inside. there were also palettes of a stair step effect to the second level and saying that that all wood, no handrails and burned away quickly and part of the issue they were having, as well. now they're cutting into the building dissecting it for
anything that's getting in the way to get a bettered in and to that point, about what it was like inside, i want to introduce you to chris. chris, talk to me. chris dunn, you know a lot of people who would frequent this space. give me an idea of what it was like inside. >> i hadn't been there for over a year and so i am not sure exactly what it was like. it was wall to wall art and collections from all over the world. >> why is a space like this something that's of value to creative minds that would frequent it? >> well, i think that the issue is there's -- well, i mean, it was a beautiful space and they were allowing this type of artistic gathering to happen and there's really just not enough spaces for this type of art, for this type of artistic expression, music and gathering. >> so you obviously this whole community looking to make sure their friends, loved ones were
found. you have been able to find everyone that you think was there. correct? >> i'm pretty sure i knew that went to the event has made it out safe. >> but is everyone talking about this? is it something that's just permeating the community? >> yeah. i mean, this is absolutely devastating. everyone is connected. and i would say there's a massive community of artists and just a massive community here in oakland that's grieving right now. this is unprecedented. >> are you still seeing messages of people looking for loved ones via social media? >> that traffic died down a little bit because i think it's more and more resolved. >> people are finding out the people they loved either made it or didn't make it? >> seems like it. it's a centralized place for people looking and not as much just sort of random posts on facebook like it was. >> but that's dominating your social media at this time?
>> i don't have anything on my facebook wall other than this. and maybe a handful of standing rock posts. >> wow. all right. chris, thank you. we're glad the people you care about are safe and sorry for your community and dealing with. that's the sense out here. people trying to get an idea of where the loved ones are and at this point officials making it very clear that this is all about recovery. no chance that anyone could have survived this but because the people may be so hard to identify it is really slowing down the process on getting through the building. >> absolutely tragic. we had feared yesterday the number would go up and it has gone up much, much higher. stephanie elam, thank you for that. we are expecting a press conference at 6:00 p.m. eastern and will bring it to you when it begins. a weekend of ruffling international feathers with controversial phone calls. that's highlighting the importance of a single cabinet position yet to be filled. that, of course, secretary of state. president-elect trump has yet to make his pick.
tonight we are learning that trump has not narrowed down his possible picks. instead, that pool of candidates is getting larger. >> well, an issue he's brought in to the search and secretary of state is an incredibly important position to fill and he's fortunate to have interest amongst serious men and women whom all need to understand the first responsibility of secretary of state would be to implement and adhere to the president-elect's america first foreign policy. and be loyal to his view of the world. >> cnn's ryan nobles is outside trump tower. he joins me now. you know, now, obviously, a big name, jons huntsman, is in the mix. he's a republican, ran for president, he's also a mixed history, right, with donald trump? >> reporter: yeah.
that's right. you know, when's interesting is early days of trump's ascent to the republican nomination where a lot of establishment republicans were being very critical of donald trump, jons huntsman is a few voices of the establishment group with relatively nice things to say about him and then as the campaign went on and more controversies of donald trump, huntsman's tune changed a little bit and never too far from trump as a candidate. you know, what is interesting about this particular pick at this point is that, you know, obviously, everything that's happened in the past 24 hours with china and taiwan, jon huntsman knows that delicate relationship very well. having served as the ambassador to china. and he is someone that would come from that establishment wing of the water. but, poppy, you know, we are being cautioned not to describe jon huntsman as a front-runner at this point but donald trump will spend more time deliberating this pick and there could be many more names floated before he makes the final
decision and it could be sometime before we know who the next secretary of state will be. >> right. it could be sometime and kellyanne conway saying that to reporters today. this is critically important pick, will be a while and keep us all on our toes. what about the trump team saying today about the call that donald trump took with the president of taiwan that did a lot more than just ruffle feathers? >> reporter: yeah. you know, and vice president-elect mike pence trying to down play that criticism right now and he defended donald trump all morning on the morning talk shows saying it's the media making too much of this. listen to the argument of this morning on nbc. >> i think the conversation that happened this week with the president of taiwan was a courtesy call. she reached out to the president-elect and he took the call from the democratically elected leader of taiwan and it's one of more than 50 telephone calls that the president-elect has taken from
and made to world leaders in the midst of a historic pace and cabinet appointments and senior appointments, building a legislative agenda. even traveling the country and saving 1,000 jobs in the state of indiana so it's all a reflection of the tremendous energy and i think it's the kind of approach that you're going to see him bring to challenges at home and abroad. >> reporter: pence, of course, trying to make the argument that this call is routine and a call like this hasn't taken place in almost 40 years so that's why it's raised so many eyebrows. you know, this is many asking the question, is this going to mean that under the trump administration, the relationship of the united states, china and taiwan could change and the united states pushes away from the one china policy? when pence was pressed on the question he refused to take any kind of a position. he said we have to wait and see until after donald trump is inaugurated president. poppy? >> ryan nobles, thank you very much for that.
we appreciate it. we have a lot ahead this hour, folks. hotly contested dakota access pipeline. those protested it won a major part of the battle for the pipeline. we will have a live report ahead from north dakota. also, they have been living in death and destruction and now the residents of aleppo are fleeing for their lives. we are inside of syria for you tonight. we'll take you live to the streets of aleppo. stay with us. ♪
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sara sidner is in north dakota. first bring in van jones who aside from talking about politics has been a very vocal opponent of this pipeline. just for our viewers who might not be as familiar wit. let's pull up the map to see what we're talking about. north dakota, huge, huge oil and shale reserves. >> yeah. >> so big money maker. it was going to through from north dakota, south dakota, iowa and illinois and then the refineries. the key here is they didn't win everything. they have won a major battle, not the war. >> not the war. this is a huge deal. first of all, this pipeline originally set to go through bismark, a big city for the part of the country. about 92% white city. they said, listen, it is too dangerous. we don't want it here. so in a very controversial move it was rerouted through native american sacred burial ground and then under a river.
if that pipe were to leak and these pipes leak a lot. pipes leak. that's why we have plumbers. no pipe is ever perfect. if it were to leak, it would not only hurt the native americans but millions and millions of americans down river would also be hurt. that's why you didn't have a couple hundred native americans. you have 5,000 to 10,000 people who camped out there in the frigid weather saying, please do not do this. the ones who wanted it rerouted seemed to have won tonight. >> the tribe we're talking about is standing rock sioux and they have been saying as they have been protesting along with others coming from around the country -- >> around the world. >> and around the world, they have been saying, you know, those that say you're not going through the sacred burial grounds, it is a colonial view. you don't know our practices. you're disrespecting us doing this. monday, tomorrow, was the deadline for these protesters were going to have to get off the land and they were going to go through with a construction and this is the last minute. >> look. hollywood could not have written
a more epic, dramatic conflict in terms of, you know, a large company trying to make this happen. trying to get their needs met and then it comes up against a little tribe, very poor, very low income and then suddenly it blossoms into a global protest and then last minute the army corps of engineers looks and says, wait a minute. the protesters are right. this actually would be a very, very dangerous thing. we actually cannot grant the easement. and so, it's turned into a big victory. listen. people will have to fight it out in court now. they may say -- not over. >> they can reroute it. >> yeah. >> and just on the part of those supportive of the pipeline, dakota access, they said it's a safer, more environmentally friendly way of moving oil. how so? to go under the missouri river, some say that sparks a concern and this is safer than trucking it and more spills, as well. we have a statement from the department of justice and reading to it you in full from
loretta lynch. in light of the report regarding the okay ses pipeline, the justice department will continue to monitor the situation in north dakota and the days ahead. we stand ready to provide the resources to help all those who can play a constructive role in easing the tensions. obviously, a lot of them. she goes on to say the department remains committed to supporting law enforcement, defending constitutional right to free speech and fostering thoughtful dialogue on the matter. i have our sara sidner with us in north dakota covering this extensively. when's the reaction on the ground? >> reporter: jubilation really. i mean, people feel like this fight was well, well worth it. and they feel like they have won at least a portion of the fight. i mean, this is a huge victory for the standing rock sioux tribe. they are very, very happy to see this and we heard from the chairman of the standing rock sioux who talked about how they
conducted themselves and how so many people came out to support including thousands of veterans who arrived today. i want to give you a look at the camp right now. it has grown in the last 24 hours, it has grown exponentially with the number of people who have been here. we have been here now for a week. and we have really seen a change in this entire place. many, many, many more people. we know that they were at first estimating about 5,000. we must be up between 5,000 and 8,000 people who are here today. you can hear people screaming and cheering and chanting. because they have been fighting for this for so, so long. from august all the way now into december through frigid temperatures, through difficult times. through an area where really, you know, this is a plain that gets extremely cold and people just kept coming. even though it was difficult. they just kept coming and people
feel like it's a real victory. >> sara, you have been reporting so well for so long on all of this and so glad we have you there tonight. i have been in north dakota reporting on sort of another side of it which is the economic boon that the oil industry is for north dakota and the surrounding states and how many, you know, really good paying u.s. jobs come to north dakota as a result of that. there is that side of the argument, too. so what happens now? >> reporter: absolutely. there is that side of the argument. we talked to law enforcement today. we went on the other side where the dakota access pipeline is being built and the workers are. and where the police have sort of a front line if you will. and the police themselves said, we pulled back. they had an agreement overnight between the tribe, the veterans group in here and the police that they would pull back and try to deescalate the line and the first indication something was changing. when talking to the head of the standing rock sioux tribe, the
chairman, dave archambault they talked about the intention of staying here, rerouted, going under the river a couple of miles ago and he also talked about those on the other side of the fight. those, for example, the unions. the union workers involved. the jobs and ultimately he said for so long native americans have been given or have had their resources taken by the united states even though many of them served in the armed services and it is just now time to stop this. there is also a long-held belief that this is nearing destruction to see the oil that's continually taken from the land and so that is one of the prophesies that as the oil is brought out from the land that that is a black snake. the pipeline is the black snake and people talking about that,
too, worried this is going to be the end days if the resources keep being taken from the land. that's another part of the argument by the spiritual leaders. but yes, they recognize that some of this was economic boon for people not the tribe itself necessarily but people on the other side of this. >> sara sidner live for us in cannon ball, north dakota. sara will join us this later this evening. van jones, to put a button it with you, to sara's point, you know, there is the balance of obviously their sacred burial ground and their rights and the economic boon that it is to the region and the jobs. >> right. and but basically what happened is the same logic that was used to reroute it so it doesn't go through bismarck used so it doesn't go through native american territory and risk the water. there's things to balance out here. for the native american community, that fight was like montgomery or selma for the civil rights movement.
a time the community came together and the world stood with them and they got a victory and i think people are very, very happy tonight. >> do you think it's dying or rerouting? >> for the black snake -- >> not in my backyard. >> you know that when you're going through sacred burial ground, you are violating treaties and risking water. not the right way to do it. >> thank you. i'm so glad you're with us and sara sidner, as well. coming up, as 800 workers at the carrier plant in indiana keep their jobs thanks to a deal by president-elect, 300 workers at a lesser known manufacturing plant a mile away losing the jobs going to mexico. workers say the loss will have a ripple effect. >> it's not 300. it is at least three to four people per family. 1,200, 1,800. >> coming up, that report. also speaking about it with
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in new york this week. obviously, also on the short list of secretary of state is former new york city mayor giuliani and potentially general petraeus. but another name being added to the list is jon huntsman, formally the ambassador to china under president obama and ran for president in 2012. let's talk about all of this. with me now is ryan williams, former spokesman for governor mitt romney. back when he was governor. thank you for being with me, ryan. where do we begin? so, what do you make of the fact that huntsman is now being added to this list sort of under consideration? sources say don't consider him the front-runner right now but this is after that dinner of mitt romney and donald trump. what do you make of it? >> i think it shows that the president-elect is doing due diligence, talking to a number of people. i don't think he's sold on anybody yet and expanding, not subtracting the field of candidates for the position. that's good. speak to people who have a wide
range of expertise and find the person he thinks is not only best to serve the country but to work with and to implement his america first foreign policy. >> if you're mitt romney right now, you are not nervous? >> oh, i don't think the governor's nervous at all. if asked to serve would have a discussion with president trump about that. governor romney is deeply committed to public service. if he doesn't end up in the administration, that's fine, as well. i think the relationship between the president-elect and governor romney has been repaired and i think he can serve even if he's not the secretary of state as an adviser and outside voice for this administration. >> as you know, kellyanne conway said all the candidates needs to be, quote, loyal to trump's view of the world. you know, we all know how far apart the two men romney and trump are coming to russia, for example. not to mention global trade. you also have jon huntsman critical of donald trump near
the end of the campaign, even said that pence needed to leave the ticket after that "access hollywood" tape came out. do you think that's politics and campaigning and different when you're governing? >> yes. donald trump is our president now and leader of the free world and the men considered for the position want to see the president-elect do well. the future president do well. and lead our country towards peace and prosperity so now i'm encouraged to see president-elect trump put aside some of the things that were said in the campaign to find the best and brightest people for this important position. i think it shows that there's a great deal of leadership from the new administration and that trump is a bigger man than many of the critics thought he was. >> let's talk about a fascinating interview that our jake tapper did this week. it was on "state of the union" thorning and sat down with the campaign managers of both sides and a viewer -- someone in the audience asked about donald trump's twitter use, what he'll do as president. here's part of the exchange. >> is that really presidential
behavior? >> he's the president-elect so that's presidential behavior, yes. >> the things that bill clinton did -- >> i did in the campaign -- >> those were president snshl. >> are you comparing what bill clinton did in the oval office with a twitter feed? should we review for those who were not born then what prk did in the oval office? >> just because a president does it doesn't make it presidential. >> i wasn't saying otherwise. >> the specific question there was about the fact that the president-elect tweeted that millions of american voters voted illegally. what do you make of what she said? >> i think trump is breaking the rules. he'll do it his way, served him well and the use of twitter is unconventional and a tool i think he likes to use to communicate to the american people. i hope he uses it judiciously and carefully as president because the president's words
mean more than a nominee for political office. the words matter, they can swing markets, they can cause international issues so i think it's god it's good to see him using the form of communication and hope he's careful with it. >> especially tweeting from the potus account. i wish we had more time. we'll have you on again. ryan williams, thank you. >> thank you. still to come, president-elect donald trump tweets a threat to companies planning to move jobs out of the united states. what he said and how corporate america's reacting next. you're live in "the cnn newsroom." can shop over 700,00s from brands like samsung, kitchenaid and lego. all with low monthly payments. ♪
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leaves our country for another country, fires its employees or builds a new factory or plant in the other country and sells its products back into the united states would face that tariff. he also said please be forewarned prior to making a very expensive mistake, the united states is open for business. also, listen as vice president-elect mike pence responded this morning about questions of trump's latest tweets. >> does he now pick up the phone and call the head of the companies who are going to move overseas? >> well, i think what you are going to see and the president-elect will make those decisions on a day by day basis in the course of the transition, the course of the administration, but what you're seeing emerge here and i think it's so exciting for millions of americans, you should have seen the emotion on people's faces. >> we saw -- >> interesting the vice president-elect saying on a day-to-day basis the skigss will be made.
let's talk about it with austan goolsbee. thank you for being with me. >> thanks for having me, poppy. >> let me get your take. you know the inner workings of the white house, obviously working there, advising the president on economic issues. what do you make of what the vice president-elect said, someone who knows how the business of governing is done quite well being govern nor of indiana saying, you know, we'll look at the individual companies and whether we intervene on a day-to-day basis. does that work? >> no. of course it doesn't work. i mean, once you're -- you can do what happened this week where they called up carrier and because mike presence is the governor in indiana they were able to give them a subsidy. now, the thing that's weird here is donald trump is kind of acting like he called and threatened them and that's what got them to leave half the jobs in the u.s. when, in fact, they just paid them to keep the jobs in the u.s. once you're in the federal
government, once you're the president, you can't really do that. i mean, we have federal tax policy. it is not up to the president to call and decide which company's going to get a subsidy and which one is not. i think donald trump's own companies did that outsourcing so i saw a lot of executives saying, hold on a minute. if there's going to be a 35% tariff on products getting sent to the u.s. that were outsourced, does that apply to trump's own business or how are they going to decide it? >> well, it would, right? if it's the law of the land and apply to his children's businesses where -- >> well -- >> -- items are made overseas but i don't have a ton of time with you. i know you strongly disagree with the way this which the president-elect went about this. but it worked. >> yeah. >> 800 people in indiana who thought they would be out of work, you know, were going into christmas thinking, how will i support my family and do this?
now they have the good-paying jobs. union jobs. >> worked for 800 people. i agree with that. >> it's not worked and happened to other, you know, manufacturing jobs that are going to be lost in indiana like rexnor a mile down the road. >> right. >> but some say, why not just do whatever it takes? maybe it won't work for everyone. but why not? >> well, look. it's perfectly -- that's perfectly valid way to ask it. and as you say, for 800 people keeping their jobs, they're perfectly happy. the thing that donald trump's tweeting out, though, all it would raise is he's not talking about doing what he just did. what he just did is give a multi-million dollar subsidy to a company to ship only half the jobs to mexico. what he's talking about in the tweet is slapping a 35% tariff on other companies and that i think you better be careful
because if you start a trade war, thousands of americans are going to lose their jobs, not gain them. >> of course. we should learn from history here, right? one thing to threaten and perhaps threatening works. right? perhaps other companies not dare to do this. or at least to the extent they were planning on it because of what we have seen and the last time this country instituted a major tariff was in the 1930s on -- >> that did not end well, yes. >> made the great depression even worse. >> yes. >> and prolonged it. however, as you know, donald trump has threatened to pull out of the world trade organization. if he can't get a better deal. and if you aren't bound by the wto, then you're actually not violating, you know, international law to slap these tariffs on. are you concerned that perhaps -- >> oh -- >> to see the president-elect do that? >> i don't think that we will see that. i'm not saying he does not have the ability to slap on tariffs. i think he has the ability. i just think things like if a
lot of imports into the u.s. are actually supplies that are used in u.s. manufacturing, so if you start doing that, and you start getting those countries slapping tariffs on u.s. products, then u.s. auto manufacturers not able to make a bunch of cars because they say, whoa, wait a minute. we can't get the electrical system or the air conditioner or whatever supply was the thing coming from mexico. so i just think they just need to take a step back, take a deep breath and figure out what works. going and calling people and threatening them on a one by one company basis is a really bad way to make your economic policy. >> i have 30 seconds left but given your experience in the white house on economic policy, if, indeed, this tariff is instituted, what would a trade war look like near term and long term for the u.s. jobs?
>> it would be bad in the short term. in the long term, we'd probably be able to negotiate our way back out of it. to find some new agreement but in the short term they would have to shut down a bunch of factories while they were waiting to get their spare parts. hopefully donald trump will put his focus on corporate tax reform which i think they will and that has the potential to be a positive for the corporate sector focusing on the let's fight it over is not good. >> i have to leave it there. he said he'll bring the corporate tax code down to 15% and congress on his side and probably a mayor change on that policy. thank you. >> great to see you again, poppy. tales of starvation, fear and a fight just to survive. these are the stories our fred pleitgen is fearing firsthand of syria. we'll take you to the front line in aleppo straight ahead. my name is yasmin belo-osagie and i produce programs... ...and online content for african women as they try...
staying with the top story tonight, the tragic fire in oakland, california, that's left at least 30 people dead. we are waiting for a news conference of officials in oakland. it is expected to be really any moment. so we'll bring it to you live as soon as it begins. again, 30 people dead at least in this oakland warehouse fire. much more of that ahead. meantime, in syria, syrian regime forces pounding
bombarding aleppo 24 hours in a bid to drive out rebel forces and gain control of the city. air strikes and mortar rounds pounding eastern aleppo nonstop reducing buildings to rubble, sending some 30,000 people in just days out of the city. all while international leaders try to hammer out some sort of diplomatic resolution to what has been a bloody civil war in syria that's dragged on and on for years. the united nations now estimates 600,000 people have been killed in this civil war in syria. our senior international correspondent fred pleitgen joins me live tonight from aleppo. our tn ground. you are inside the besieged city seeing this all firsthand. it is the children, fred, as we showed in your piece on this program last night, it is the children who are bearing the worst of this.
>> reporter: yeah. they certainly are, poppy. a thing to keep in mind is that as night falls here in aleppo, we can see and hear the shelling going on, aircraft in the air. also dropping bombs, as well. all you can do is just imagine how bad things must be for families that are still trapped inside these besieged areas, especially, of course, for the children. you know, earlier today we managed to get to an area recently taken back by the syrian government, destroyed and, again, there were many of those displaced people inside there. trying to cling on to hope and also trying to cling on to any sort of belongings they could find. here's what we saw. driving through a destroyed wasteland, that until recently was one of the main battlegrounds in syria. aleppo's district was in rebel hands until last week when government forces moved in with crushing fire power.
13-year-old udai shows me where a rocket landed next to his house and the fear he felt as the war raged. we were very, very frightened he says. normally we would hide in the basement but luckily that night we slept on the first floor because two rockets hit right over here. udai's little brother abdul is clearly traumatized by the horrors and weak from living under siege for weeks with almost no food and water available much of the time. as the rebels lost their grip on this place, many residents fled trying to escape with their lives and not much more. now, they're coming back, some haven't seen their houses for years. halid left in 2012 when the rebels took this district. now he's trying to salvage any belongings in what's left of his apartment. i am very sad because everything is either destroyed or ransacked he says.
we found these pictures under the rubble. even the walls are destroyed but we'll come back here and rebuild. the battle for aleppo is far from over. but syrian government forces clearly have the upper hand. taking about half the rebels' territory in the past week alone and continuing to push their offensive with massive fire power. like in so many districts that have been taken back by the syrian military, there is massive destruction in this part of eastern aleppo but there's no denying the shift in momentum in favor of the syrian military and also the boost in morale that many of the soldiers have gotten. troops loyal to syrian president bashar al assad said they believe they could capture all of aleppo very soon. the rebel headquarters was right here, he says. so the loss of this district was a big blow to them. you can see how our shelling pounding them and that shows that their morale is collapsing.
rebels left behind a makeshift cannon fleeing here last week. so far the opposition hasn't found a way to shore up their defenses in the face of the massive and possibly decisive syrian government offensive. >> in the past 30 hours that we've been on the ground, we've seen no let up in shelling. i'm not sure if you can hear the rounds that have been fired. in the past couple of days alone, the rebels have lost 60% of the territory that they once held here in aleppo. if you speak to some of those people, very few of them believed that a political solution is something that will happen or possible especially with the momentum going the way it is right now despite the efforts bring the international community. >> it's absolutely heartbreaking. thank you for the reporting. thank you so you and your entire
team, your producer, camera men. we know you are bringing this live. we're also waiting that update from oakland, california. tonight the scene of that horrific warehouse fire. 30 people dead. also breaking knew tonight on the hotly contested da toe ta access pipeline. those protesters winning major battle. in all of this we'll tell you what happened, straight ahead live from north side nd.
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don't miss the season finale of parts unknown, anthony bourdain uncovers the real rome. >> it was the out skirt, the margins of rome that were interesting and beautiful. the real rome, not the temples and monuments of a long dead empire. a place where people struggled every day to live and to love. you've been eating here for how long? >> since i was a kid. it's comforting.
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