tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN December 14, 2016 5:00pm-6:01pm PST
good a dad persona to play a bad father. >> it is not my fault and i don't care anyway. >> reporter: he certainly cared a lot. and his fans and family certainly cared about him. >> sad to lose him. and thanks to all of you for joining us. don't forget you can watch the show anywhere, any time, cnn go. anderson is next. good evening. we begin tonight with the dying cries from a city once as large as houston, texas as old as civil dags and sadly now with any place of compassion here on earth. dying cries and pleas for help. the cease fire that was supposed to give the civilians a safe way out collapsed. the new one is suppose to take hold but past experience does not offer hope it will last. and carnage, well that goes on. and u.n. ambassador speaking out
against syria, against russia and their allies iran. >> when one day there is a full accounting of the horrors committed in this the horror aleppo. one day it will come. we all know what is happening. and we all know you were involved. aleppo will join the ranks of those events in world history that defined modern evil. that stain our conscience decades later. are you truly incapable of shame? is there literally nothing that can shame you? is there no act of barbarism against civilians, no execution of a child that gets under your skin that just creeps you out a
little bit? >> here words were powerful but came in against the backdrop of the u.n.'s top humanitarian official accusing countries including the united states wringing their hands of aleppo. and we begin with the voices of aleppo and cnn's frederick. >> i don't know what to say. words can't go out now. just something to stop the expected massacres. the next day. all all the building collapsed. people are killed. and many people now are being killed and just kept in the streets in their buildings. nobody can help them. >> countless stories from within the rebel-held territory in
aleppo syria. it is by all accounts an unmitigated humanitarian disaster. >> you may be thinking this is an old video but it is not. it is a new one and it is taking place right now on the day when there was supposed to be an agreement. >> we're here on the genocide of the city of aleppo. this may be my last video. more on 60,000 civilian whose rebelled gns the deck at a timer al-assad are dying under bombing. >> with the help of her mother has been tweeting. her most recent message a cry for help. her mother following up with a message of her own. today from a rooftop, sounds of conflict could still be heard. [speaking foreign language] .
. >> at least we know that -- we were free people. we wanted the freedom. we didn't want anything else. but freedom. >> and joining us now from beirut lebanon. the cease fire seems to be back on. what happens next and can it succeed? ? >> that is the big question. about three hours from now buss are supposed to pull out to rebel enclave that still exists in aleppo and they are supposed to bring the first people out of
there and bring them to safety to other rebel-held areas in syria. the first people to be evacuated are the most vulnerable. the sick. the ones who -- the question is who that going to happen is or is it going to fall apart? it's already fallen apart once before and you are dealing with a fragile situation where there are a lot of people on both sides who are very trigger happen happy. and specially on the rebel side there are a lot of people very scared to board buss and put their faith in those government soldiers and go through that territory to get to safety. but the next hours are absolutely decisive. >> there have already been reports of others coming into and executing civilians, correct is this. >> reporter: there have been. and the u.n. says they have reports of about 82 civilians who have allegedly been executed. they say they got those reports
from people who have given them information in the past that was true. they haven't been able to independently verify that. there is a gave concern that as they move through that atrocities could be committed and that is why the u.n. and the ux s say it is on the syrian government but i specially also on the russians to make sure no other atrocities are committed as the syrian government will most probably take over all of aleppo very soon. >> this will soon will the trump administration's crisis. here to talk about it our panel. david, obviously it is horror what is happening in syria right now in aleppo. for the donald trump administration, do we know how a president trump is going to handle this? >> we really don't.
it's been really vague and astonishing when you look at the piece there and the cry for help that this wasn't more central in a u.s. presidential campaign. but it wasn't. and his policy has been pretty vague. what we do know is this. he throughout the whole campaign said assad is someone else's problem. he wanted to focus on isis. believed in creating safe zones but wanted other people to pay for them. and that one moment in the debate where he disagreed with pence, his own vice presidential nominee had said with russian provocation we may have to use force and donald trump shut that down. he really sees this as other people's problem. not his. and we don't at all have a clear strategy going forward. >> and on russian state television today, said especially seems to think that donald trump is a more naturally
ally to the syrian regime. >> if you look at the picks and the rhetoric over the campaign and try to form some idea of where he might head i think there is evidence that he's a guy who wants to be more friendly about russia. a more sanguine view. but also picked all these hard liners on iran. the trick for him and syria is they are working together. can we drive that wedge by working with the russia closer. i have no idea if that is the strategy forhe's thinking that farther. >> victory for assad in is victory for iran so it's contradictly. >> i do know he has a affection for strong men. he talked in the middle east and muber. andal the sense that if you ever throw assad you don't know what's going to happen and terrorists can take over. but all thortons are not created
equal. mubarak is very different than assad. >> and his father slaughtered people before him. >> it is a very different situation. yes. the other people thinking he could make potentially rethink the russia stuff is if if you look at condaleezza rise as one of the people and other mainstream think who are made the recommendation for the nomination. who really are not on board with russia. saying look, russia is really not trying to fight isis. they are trying to protect their interests in syria. >> one thing donald trump said is our current strategy of regime change is a proven failure. one thing when you are running for president. one thing when you are actually the president and the pictures are on the even news and people are talking about it and you hear the cries for help. and time and time again. >> and this becomes a cycle. what happens is we see the
images. horrific images. and now with technology. images immediately in our homes. >> more than ever before. >> and then the american public, i think rightly out of moral indignation begins to clamber for us to be involved. and then we get involved. and then it goes bad. and then people, the same people, the same public that was clambering for involvement then say why are we measuring around over there? that's not our business. >> the somalia, humanitarian intervention, black hawk down. >> and you could look at george w. bush as an example of the intervention gone wrong and barack obama and the red line and the failure to intervene. i think donald trump, it is time for a coherent strategy and maybe to talk to the american public about the new world we live in where the media is really -- >> but it is interesting. president trump continues to say america first. jobs, jobs, jobs. it is very easy to get sucked
into foreign issues. i mean, every president often comes in saying look, i'm not interested -- you know, i'm focused on america, infrastructure, nation-building at home. but then world events over take presidents time and again. >> this is where it matters. there is clamber. but there is not appetite for actually getting involved. >> or for any endurance. >> right. >> when we actually get involved and something is going wrong. >> the word has been watching for years and there hasn't been -- >> a larger political landscape i think might be more forgiving for donald trump even though there is this huge moral problem. but many people agree. >> and he was clear throughout the campaign that this getting drawn into this kind of event it did not interest him at all. i thought he made that sort of a rallying cry. and i think his supporters give him that breathing space on
this. >> the quote i read was not on syria in particular from donald trump. it was on nation-building as an idea. i think i said it was about syria. i was talking just in more general. but yet at certain point to policy, i mean this is a policy which has not been made clear by president obama which has really bedevilled him and he didn't interview with fareed saying he had essentially missed a lot of this and it haunts him to this day. does president trump have to say we aren't getting involved or just get it percolate is this. >> i think he's going to be surrounded by people who want him to do something. he met with tulsi gabbard from hawaii on this as well. and i think, you know, that it's possible that he will get pressure from a mike pence or others to do something.
ands the also different when it is on your watch. when it is on your campaign or when you are watching a genocide unfold and not doing anything. >> and the continuing role donald trump's sons are taking in government business even though they are supposed to be the ones running the president elect's business empire in instead. we got a prime example of that tonight. when will that happen? we'll talk about it next? and also the dnc hacking story? all of it. beat by beat. ow hillary clinton's campaign manager unknowingly ended up giving russian cyber thieves the key to the kingdom. a fascinating inside look afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine.
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new questions about the role donald trump's own children are playing in the administration. being fueled in part by a meeting today at trump tower. and cnn's sara murray joins us with the latest. a major meeting with tech executives. jim cook from apple. and amazon and google and elsewhere. and explain what's going on? >> there was an important meeting for donald trump to send the signal that he was willing to take the opinions of people he's criticized in the past and who have been critical of him. no secret donald trump's relationship with silicon valley i was stellar. but i'm told it was a positive meeting. a opportunity for the tech executives to make a case for priorities they are interested in.
for high-skilled visas and more spending on a digital infrastructure. and donald trump made it clear and we saw this, that he wants to try to help them when he is president. so we'll see if this sort of love fest continues beyond the confines. but it is interesting as you point out that, it wasn't just donald trump but his senior advisors and his tech executives in the meeting. it was his grown children all present for what could be a very important meeting for trump. >> you know, the two grown men. donald trump's son, eric and don jr. they are supposed to be actually running his company when he's president. but right now it would seem they are deeply involved in the transition. and there is new information also tonight about what role ivanka trump is going to have in her father's administration. >> right. there are lots of questions about whether there will ever be a clear bright line between how the kids interact with the business and how they interact
with the trump white house. for instance, while we're expecting eric and donald jr. to take over the day to day operations, not only were they in this meeting but don jr. helped interview candidates for interior secretary. and other examples. and it does look like perhaps ivanka trump will have the clearest divide. she is likely to move over to washington and have a more formalized role within the white house. we're being told with what used to be the first lady's office will become the first fam office. this will be an opportunity for ivanka trump to have an opportunity in the east wing and act as hostess and also advise her father on policies we may think she could bring a more liberal view to. so all of this up in the air until we see donald trump announce how he plans to divvy
up his business. that was supposed to happen tomorrow but now we're waiting until january. and there are plenty of ethics experts and lawyers who are waiting to see that. >> sara murray, thanks very much. digging deeper into the question how the incoming group plans. >> reporter: congressman ryan zinke hit it off with don trump jr. both are avid hunters. and trump's oldest son sat in on meets and called perspective nominees. so much criticalition say for that clean break between the administration can and the children. back in july don jr. even joked he might be the head of
interior. >> i don't know if i might be the head of but rest assured. >> reporter: zinke notes he may have worked in favor with him. don jr. is a member of the missoula, montana based boone and crockett club. a hunting and wildlife conservation organization. the club's mission, promote the conservation of big game and its habitat. don jr.'s love of hunting also helped build relationships with the other western lawmakers. he's joined them on hunting trips and has conveyed to the oldest son that a westerner for interior would be best to protect the land and their way of life. don jr. calls himself a big conservationist saying hunters give back paying fees that go towards conservation efforts. >> we try to pay steward to
that. that it's there more our kids and your kids and beyond. >> reporter: but his love of big game hunting has also stirred controversy. those photos in 2013 showed them proudly posing in a 2012 zimbabwe hunt. a leopard and a water buffalo. in another photo, the tail of an elephant. in this photo a massive crocodile hangs from a tree. but he responds on twitter saying villages were grateful for the meat. >> one of these things some people will understand and some people won't. back on panel now. so a lot of to discuss. first of all, david. just, have we ever seen the grown children of a president
elect sitting in on meetings like this who are also going to be running a corporation, a family business, who are also involved in the picking of cabinet secretary? >> no. with all of those no. absolutely not. that is unprecedented. and let me rust jay anderson. i don't bebruj that donald trump wants to incorporate his family. >> they are his top advisors. >> entire brand. the family is the brand. the name is the organization. he groupomed them to run --. the fact that there is no difference right now. then they clearly should not be part of building and forming the government. that to me the clear -- there is no problem in taking counsel from your family. the problem is they haven't set up and set forth what are the guidelines to make sure that the conflicts of interest stay away. >> do you agree? >> i wish they would be clear and faster.
but i do think this is a bit of a new creature and we're going to see how it plays out here. but, you know, if ivanka is the government trump kid and the other two are the business trump kid, i don't have that much problem with that and it is going to a case by case basis. but i think it is best practice to make it clear and how. i'm not sure we're going to get that. >> does it make sense to you kirsten, that there are sitting around with the tech executives today? >> no. the example i keep using is let's just make this chelsea clinton and then going back to running the foundation. the clinton foundation. i think the republicans would see the problem with that. >> if chelsea clinton in a protect. >> and exactly. meeting with people with the same kind of meetings and officially going and working on the meetings and then going back and running the foundation and they would be correct in criticizing that. i think that would be highly problematic. i do think the ivanka being the
de facto first lady maybe, i i don't have a problem with that. and look, there is nothing wrong with that. if melania doesn't want to be the first lady and ivanka wants to step in. i don't understand the objection to it, honestly. >> i think what he should do is lick date assets and put it in a blind trust.quidate assets and a blind trust. >> this is the most obvious way you take him down. and maybe it is two or three years down the read when he's not as popular but if you wanted impeachment or some sort of -- you know, the conflict of interest. this is just wait to be a scandal. >> jeffrey? >> i agree it could be a scandal. and the press conference they canceled the other day. they need to be exactly right when they come forward. >> it is a complex thing to figure out. >> very.
and in terms of the family. i went back and looked. every president, not every, but a lot of presidents from john adams and all the way up to bill and hillary clinton, presidential family member, sons, nephews, this has been going on for a very, very long time and i don't think there is anything unusual about it. >> any president who has children who has adults who are this accomplished should listen to them. good for president elect trump. i've seen them on tv, they are very impressive people. the problem is the business side. and he's exactly right. there is a very clear ethical imperative. he has to sell everything. liquidate the assets and put them in treasury bills where they can be no separation. it is impossible conflicts.
the easiest and most obvious is this hotel. just fikd up the hotel hear in washington. a 60 year lease with the federal government, which he now runs in a few weeks. the lease itself says no elected official of the government of the united states can be party of this lease. so he has to get out of that deal. will he? i don't know. here's the problem. who's going to enforce it? the head of the administration who's supposed to enforce that lease is going to be appointed by donald trump. the conflicts are e numerable and they will tie him in knots. >> do you agree? >> i do. i think the other thing we continue to talk past the other issue may be they are actually sit continuing to sit on meetings. if they continue to sit on meetings after he's sworn in that's also a problem. there is a reason for those. it says any public official applies to the president of the
united states, if any of them are paid or performing work in which they should be paid by the federal government this is a huge problem. it is not just a conflict of interest. it is not just optics. >> kayleigh? >> if he said i was given a role any role i would not be paid. in the ninety, hillary clinton took a role in the white house. there was litigation over it. the court said nepotism laws do not apply to certain white house staffing positions. >> but the first lady -- >> no no. he was son the house task force. she was a policy person. >> as first lady. >> and the circuit court said no this does not apply to certain white house positions. look paul i think you are right at the lease. i absolutely think so. but 18 ust section 2 o 2 says the president is kpemplt from conflict of interest laws. donald trump is exactly correct when he says i don't have to
give up my business if i don't want to. he's doing that because he wants to optically be in position to be ethically sound. >> the magna carta. --. also there is the other clouz clause. foreign powers influencing our president. >> the clause is a specific point you can't receive gifts from -- >>[chatter]. >> let's trach a break. kayleigh raised a point about the first son-in-law jared kushner. a new information on that next.
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well there is more breaking news tonight on the role president trump's growing children will be playing in the administration. cnn's phil mattingly joins us. what are you learning? >> reporter: it is no secret he's one of the closest confidants to the flekt. and the president elect has been trying to find a way to get jared kushner to washington with him. that is going to happen. what sources are saying is he'll have a place in the west wing and likely an office in the west
wing as well. they have not figured out a specific title. what this raises is potential issues you were just discussing. on p ain't nepotism laws. a anti-nepti anti-neptism there is no question about it. jared kushner is one of the closest and most important advisors to the president elect. he'll have a role in the white house. what this does raise though is something we've all been talking about for the last couple of weeks and something i've heard from trump advisors, more concerns about conflicts of interest. this is an area they fear could plague the first couple months of the organization. maybe even longer. that said, legal team is working and they feel they are getting closer to a resolution. >> thanks very much for the breaking news. back to the panel. to the point that others made,
it is the first question that may be raised, you know, once donald trump is president about any selection that was made or policy that is made is people are going to start to look at well wait a minute, how does this influence trump business? this is not going to go away? >> the thing they need to be careful of is the distraction aspect of it. he's got a lot of things he wants to accomplish. so they need to resolve this in some fashion. as for jared kushner, i think he would be absolutely perfect. he would be my selection as deputy chief of staff to the white house. this is the person who plays the mike diva role of the reagan troika. the cardhief of staff and the or figures who can translate the president in terms of knowing him as the family member or almost a family member to the white house staff. >> even things like the hotel
that donald trump has now opened here in washington. it's run by -- it is a lease. they are leasing it. the interior department actually own -- oversees the land. >> dealt with national parkland and therefore the national park service falls with the department of interior. >> so don jr. is running that hotel. he's had a hand in who the interior secretary is and his department is running -- oversees the land the hotel is on. >> i'm willing to listen how they want to structure it and i wish they would say it quickly and be clear about it. and what's going to be interesting too is you have these two ceos who have been named as possible cabinet members and they are going to do the best practices stuff. like carlos gutierrez when he went from kelloggs to the bush administration, immediately tenured his resignation to the board the day he was named. so these guys are going to go
through a process and the contrast is going to be interesting. might lead you do think trump is going to do something different. but pence released his taxes and trump different. so he may be very different. >> he said he would co-everything right. all assets in a blind trust. and not take out a government paycheck. he's doing everything right. donald trump likewise. every indication so far. we've got to give him time. only thirty days. ivanka trump. -- >> but ivanka trump has her own business. and i don't know the answer to this. i don't know if they know the answer to this yet. does she now stop those businesses or does she continue to sell a dress that she's wearing in her white house office in her role as first lady. oh that dress is available on line in her website snm i don't know. >> and the thing that bothers me
about this. because they are in the private sector in a business this is becoming a big deal. but how many lawyers do we have in congress and how many lawyers have we had in the obama administration that still have law firms back home with their name on there? >> name one. name a lawyer you know had their name still on their law practice while -- >> i'm looked it up for you. >> i think the one thing we have to really be careful of. especially my friend kayleigh who went to law school and know this is. it is not just violation of the letter of the law. it is violation of the spirit of the law for varied kushner to serve in any capacity in the white house -- >> [ inaudible ]. >> that's totally different. the it is first lady. >>[chatter]. >> it specifically says -- >> -- no business interests. >> one at a time. one at a time. >> my point is simple. if he is in the white house,
working for white house. and he is his son-in-law, which he is, unless he divorces ivanka. it runs afoul of the anti-nepotism law. >> we doubt that congress intended to include the white house or the executive office of the president in the anti-nepotism law. >> let's not go too far into the weeds on this one particular law. >> it's important. >> i too have had -- but i recovery. and you use ads phrase blind trust. which we throw around a lot. a trust is only blind if the beneficiary has no idea of its contents. if you say mr. kushner or president elect trump is required by ethics, by honesty to have the blind trust that means may must liquidate.
>> -- he would. >> and that is the standard i'm looking for. -- half a billion in stake at in goldman sachs. there was -- some liberals have complained about that. i think it's great. so they will get huge tax breaks. giant beautiful extraordinary gorgeous tax breaks. the classiest in the world but they got -- >> -- unfair of you to ask donald trump to do that. because he would be depriving his children of their livelihood. >> children are just fine -- >> -- in the private sector for running for office. >> chairman spice overt the rnc basically said as long as the trump team is transparent it is okay. when conflict, arise. only when people are sneaky. >> when they don't release their tax returns for example. isn't the analogy, bobby kennedy.
bobby kennedy is the reason the nepotism law exists. hold on. that is the reason. it it is to prevent you from hiring family members. it is really not the same as the first lady. how is jared kushner different from bobby kennedy? >> the court dealt with that very question. you couldn't appoint someone as a.g. that's why we created the law in the first place. you can however appoint people to be in the white house. and they are not subject to the law. >> this is really fascinating detail. we're going to hear from a reporter who's investigation found a espionage. we're only just now beginning to understand it. we'll talk about the details ahead. picture haunt you at night. nexium 24hr... shuts down your stomach's active acid pumps... to stop the burn of frequent heartburn... all day and night.
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it started with a phone call more than a year ago. an fbi agent call the dnc to let them know that you are computer system was compromised. linked to hackers. a contractor thought it might be a prank call. he wasn't actually sure it was an fbi agent talking to him on the phone. that was it. the beginning of what became an unprecedented saga of espionage.
one still unfolding to this day. the "new york times" has expressed on the front page today explaining how that phone call in september 2015 was the first opportunity to temperature the intrusion. one that allowed hackers to roam around the network for almost seven months but it was the first in a series of missteps. from john podesta's personal e-mail being hacked. because of a phishing scam and a typo. a remarkable read for the first time key players targeted and hacked agreed to tell their stories. joining me now is eric lipton. i read this. it boggles the mind. the fact that first of all and i still can't believe this. an fbi agent calls up the dnc. basically gets forwarded to tech support. not even an employee. but a contractor. and the contractor is talking to
this fbi agent but isn't convinced the person is an actual fbi agent. >> it is extraordinary. and you realize individual decisions have real consequences and mistakes have consequences and things history can change because of one thing or another. and he doesn't believe it is an fbi agent. the fbi agent calls back, back, back. leaves voice mail messages. >> and the guy doesn't call back because he said there was nothing new to tell the guy about. >> and dnc didn't have sophisticated monitoring software to look for intrusions. and the guy did some checking and he didn't see anything. and because he didn't see anything he didn't return the calls. and this went on for months. >> and this didn't go up the chain at the dnc. >> no. >> i don't understand why the fbi. as you point out the dnc is close to the fbi. why didn't the fbi show up at the dnc? >> hard to explain. the only explanation is that the fbi gets lots of these reports
of potential intrusions and it is charged with notifying businesses and other individuals. and makes the call and tells people to if they don't respond that is the end of it. in this case they should have known. the presidential elections previously were both cyberattacked. this they should have done. and they questioned why didn't the fbi escalate is this. >> and john podesta gets a phishing e-mail telling him to change his security password allegedly from google. it wasn't real. and somebody on the team sent it to the i.t. guy and they knew it was a unreal thing. it was not a real e-mail. but he sends back a note saying
it is legitimate. but he made a mistake. so they change the password and that is how -- >> incredible. the consequences of a small error. and the decades worth of the john podesta's e-mails. the hillary clinton speeches. all kind of snod remarks that then became public, criticizing her in public and undermined two months of stories of her message. and this was all devised by the russians to try to influence not necessarily the outcome of the election but at least to disrupt the election process. to undermine the confidence in american democracy. >> and seems like two different groups of russians most likely government actors or ultimately government actors who may not even have known the other group was -- because some of the e-mails and stuff they were getting were duplicates. >> right. the company hired ultimately to
examine this. crowd strike. concluded they most likely were not aware they were both in the system at the same time. because they were actually both going back and collecting files, both players. two were active in the computers. >> on the one hand you could say this was a very high-tech sort of espionage effort but a lot lid rely on human error and mistakes. generally a phishing extradition. >> i think if they persistently tried, that they most likely would have gotten in. if you compare it for example. hillary clinton, for example, hired a private cyber security firm to protect her -- the e-mails of the clinton campaign and there is no evidence so far they did successly hack to her campaign. john podesta's i mail account.
if there is a sickle thing. is always have two step verification on the e-mail. >> he also kept 60,000 e-mails. e-mails going back ten yearsing something. he had never deleted them. >> and one guy who made the mistake and telling this is legitimate said to me which was not not the story is the fact they were not -- repeat lid telling podesta to get off the e-mail. it was a security threat and how could he not have learned he should get ouch offer of his e-mail. he continued to do it. >> and at one point he had written a paper on cyber security. >> cyber issues. >> it's fascinating. "new york times" website. appreciate what you have done. incredible read. >> thank you so much. >> just ahead, gone but not forgotten. we're going to remember the 20 sixth graders and
four years ago today a gunman opened fire inside sandy hook elementary school killing 20 first graders and six adults. for their families, december 14th, 2012, is the day their world shattered. in the days that followed, we saw extraordinary courage and bravery where it would seem impossible. i talked to lynn and chris mcdonald four days after their daughter grace, just 7 years old, died.
she was a talented artist who left behind a brother jack. they wanted to share some of their memories of grace. >> what do you want people to know about grace? >> well, grace had such a great spirit. she was a kind and gentle soul, and she was just the light and love of our family. she was just truly a special, special little girl that we loved. and she loved her brother so much. and she loved her school, sandy hook. in fact, this week i was telling somebody, she had a stomachache one day. i said to her, why don't you stay home with mom. she said, no way, i have too much fun there, and i don't want to miss anything. she would skip to get on the bus. it wasn't even a -- you know, every morning it was the backpack was packed the night before and ready to get on the bus in the morning and head off to school. we'd blow kisses every morning to each other. i remember that morning, putting her on the bus. she had a habit of blowing kisses, but then she would give
me a liver lip like, mmmm. i knew she was so happy to go off and get there. i would like to say that she was at a place that she loved, and so we take comfort in that, that we know she was in a place that she really loved. >> and with friends. >> and with friends. >> people that loved her. that's, i think, the whole community, the school, the teachers. they're all raising your child. and it's -- it's a special place. >> it is. and i take comfort that she was with all her friends. i just envision all of them holding hands. and they're all together up there. >> reporter: i was talking to you before we began. one of the things you were saying is you don't want hate or anger in your heart. >> no. i said that to jack, that it's okay to be angry because, sure, we have anger and we're upset, and we don't know why. but i told jack that he could
never live with hate. grace didn't have an ounce of hate in her. so we have to live through grace and realize that hate is not -- not how our family is and not -- certainly not how grace is. >> reporter: it's a hard thing, though, isn't it, to not feel that? >> we're going to go on, and we're going to use her positive energy to help guide us forward. >> one of gracie's favorite things to paint or draw was a peace sign. the morning after i was in the bathroom, and i used to dry her hair next to the window, and the window would fog up and she would write notes in the window to me. on saturday morning i was standing at that window in the bathroom, and it had fogged up, and i looked and there was her peace sign in the window. i was like, that's a sign from my grace. and the paint above it said grace/mom and she drew a heart. so she was all about peace and gentleness and kindness. >> those are very early days in
the grieving process. the past four years have frankly been unimaginable for the families, the pain never goes away. on top of that, the sandy hook families have become targets of hoaxsters who claim the shootings never happened. last week a woman in florida was charged with making death threats against the father of derek posner. i talked to lynn posner about it. >> as far as sandy hook, we've been calling them hoaxsters since pretty much the beginning, because they -- first of all, they don't think anything bad ever happens. they don't think anyone ever gets hurt. they think that, whenever they see something on the web or on television, that is a crime or a mass casualty event, it has to be a hoax. then, if debunking evidence comes out that shows that they
made mistakes, um, like researchers, normal researchers, they won't correct their mistakes, and oftentimes they start to fabricate their evidence or fudge their evidence or photo shop their evidence. so really they're contributing to the hoax by falsifying the information that they are propagating. so their hoaxsters by calling everything a hoax, and then everything that they do after the fact is sort of distributing false information to people. >> lynn's son noah and grace mcconnell and the 18 other children killed at sandy hook would be fifth graders today. the six adults who died would have touched the lives of dozens more children by now. 26 futures were stolen four years ago today. but the lives they lived will not be forgotten. we will remember them. charlotte bacon. danielle barden, rachel daniel
barden. rachel de vino. olivia engel. josephine gay. ena green. dylan hockley. dawn hocks pra. madeline hsu. catheri catherine hubbard. chase kowalski. jessie lewis. james matioli. grace mcdonnell. anne marie murphy. emily parker, jack pinto. noah pozner. caroline pervidi. jessica ricos. avielle richmond. lauren russo, mary sherlock.
victoria soto. benjamin wheeler. and alison wyatt. we will remember them. we'll be right back. re close to the people you love, does psoriasis ever get in the way of a touching moment? if you have moderate to severe psoriasis, you can embrace the chance of completely clear skin with taltz. taltz is proven to give you a chance at completely clear skin. with taltz, up to 90% of patients had a significant improvement of their psoriasis plaques. in fact, 4 out of 10 even achieved completely clear skin. do not use if you are allergic to taltz. before starting you should be checked for tuberculosis. taltz may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. tell your doctor if you are being treated for an infection or have symptoms. or if you have received a vaccine or plan to. inflammatory bowel disease can happen with taltz.