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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  January 23, 2017 9:00pm-10:01pm PST

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>> good evening. thanks very much for joining us. a big night at the end of a big day for the trump administration. and significant news about the protest marches. in washington, across the country and around the world. the president taking major executive action, meeting with lawmakers today, business as well as labor leaders. his critics launching legal action against what they see as conflicts of interest and in their view a clash with the constitution itself. also his press secretary's first official q&a session for members of the media today and tough questions about the president's boasting of crowd figures at the cia's memorial wall and saturday's rant at reporters. on top of all that there's new cnn reporting on the fbi investigating calls between trump national security adviser michael flynn and the russian ambassador to washington. that and the senate acting on a pair of nominations plus bernie sanders joins us for his perspective on pretty much all of the above.
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got a full night that begins with cnn's jim acosta at the white house. a very busy day. let's start with sean spicer's first official press briefing. you were there. very different mood than saturday's. >> very different mood. this was an attempt to reset relations between this white house and the news media after you heard the president of the united states and his press secretary really go after the media on saturday accusing reporters of falsely reporting on the crowd size at donald trump's inauguration last friday. and that episode was filled with sean spicer going to the podium on saturday and basically delivering some false metrics in terms of how they came to the conclusion that donald trump's inauguration was the most watched ever, which was not the case. but at this briefing today, sean spicer was not yelling at reporters. he was answering questions as the white house press secretary should do. i asked him at one point why was there such a big focus on saturday on this crowd size issue, and here's what he had to say.
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>> isn't that just part of the conversation that happens in washington? >> no, it's not. i think -- >> being president of the united states and -- >> no, look, i've been doing this a long time. you've been doing this too. i've never seen it like this. you see this historic thing. he stands there at the capitol, i was not that close but on the platform. you look out and all you're -- it's an amazing view. and it's just so many people who got in long lines, who had to go around all this different stuff to get in. and that was for the first time that we did have to go through fencing that far out. and then to hear, well, look at this shot and it wasn't that big. it's a little demoralizing. >> now, sean spicer also told reporters today it is not his intent to ever lie to the press, which was obviously something we all hope for as well, anderson. but at the same time we should point out the president does appear to be rather obsessed with this issue of the crowd size. steny hoyer, a top ranking
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democrat was over here with the rest of the congressional leaders here at the white house meeting with the president for a reception late this evening and steny hoyer told our erin burnett that donald trump was talking about this at this reception. so it appears to still be on his mind. >> also today the president signed several executive actions. was that all part of day one promises? >> they were. actually, one of them, first and foremost, withdrawing the u.s. from the transpacific trade deal. that's something we heard donald trump talking about time and again throughout this campaign. it is definitely chipping away at president obama's legacy there. there was also a freeze that donald trump ordered on hiring federal workers. he said there was a caveat that doesn't apply to military personnel. but we heard this white house setting new policy. sean spicer from the podium today at the briefing said that right now there is not a priority when it comes to deporting undocumented young
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people, the so-called dreamers. that's a shift from the campaign when donald trump talked about a deportation force. i think it's fair to say olive branches were extended today. >> jim acosta, thanks very much. we'll talk to bernie sanders who agrees with donald trump on tpp. that's coming up later, but now the news and the senate action on the president's nominees for state and cia director. cnn's phil mattingly has the latest on that and joins us now. good news on capitol hill today for president trump regarding nominees. >> that's exactly right. the trump administration has made no secret about their displeasure with the fact that the majority of their team, the majority of the nominees are not currently in place atop the agencies they were selected for. tonight and actually today, anderson, some goeod news. rex tillerson, the secretary of state nominee, moved through the committee process today, but what matters is marco rubio, the senator who had a lot of objections, a lot of pause about supporting that nomination, he's now on board. that more or less clears the way for rex tillerson's confirmation in the coming days, probably in
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about a week or so. also mike pompeo, the cia director who republicans initially wanted confirmed on friday, he's on his way to being confirmed tonight. some weather related issues holding up the vote a bit, but already 14 democrats have voted for that nomination. he has enough votes to be confirmed already as soon as they close that vote. so look, the dam isn't breaking, according to one democratic senate source i spoke to, there are still eight or nine trump nominees the democrats really have problems with and plan to put procedural hurdles in front of. but at least some of those nominees, anderson, starting to move through the process. >> i know you've been talking to sources familiar about it today. how are they describing it? >> jim kind of pointed out the most interesting point. the fact that the crowds did come up and they came up from the president. but when you talk to individuals over there, house majority leader kevin mccarthy, he said this was largely relationship building. it was described as a reception and trump was in listening mode.
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we heard this a lot when he meets with individuals, where he sits and tries to get a sense for who they are and how they click. when it comes to policy, there weren't a lot of in depth discussions, but democrats familiar with the meeting said the affordable care act did come up, trying to pressure the president on how he's going to act on that. one of the most interesting elements i thought talking to the members, was how the president is trying to get a feel for these leaders. it's not a partisan thing for him. he recognizes if he wants to move big ticket items through, he needs democrats on board. that was the start of the process tonight. the big question is, are democrats willing to join him? >> thanks for the update. our panel members tonight have seen more than a few administrations get down to work. some have been on the inside. cnn political analyst and bob woodward whisperer, carl bernstein. republican consultant margaret hoover. trump supporter kaley mcan any, van jones and joining us tonight the legendary ed rollins. former adviser to president
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reagan. margaret, let's start off with you. it was a rocky start for the trump administration over the weekend. certainly seemed to get back on track with a lot of events lined up. >> shocking to me, actually, is having been a white house staffer, it takes a lot of time to plan these events, to get all those 18 union leaders there in the oval office. they did six photo ops. today in the oval office. they've been working really hard without even having offices yet in the west wing, because the obama administration hadn't vacated. i mean, this is a team that for all the reporting about the missteps and they don't have their stuff together and the website didn't work, they're making it work. this is the people's business happening on day one. >> how much of it cameras are there for -- at least for part of it, to capture the images. it's very clear the trump administration wants americans to see what they are doing, to see that they are working. >> of course they want to show themselves working. but what happened over the weekend was extraordinary. we had an administration coming into office that declared war on
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the press, that has made once again the conduct of the press the issue rather than the conduct of the president of the united states. there were lies told throughout today by the president, by his press secretary and then when the press pointed out the lies, the fusillade continued against the press. i don't think we can move on quite so easily. hopefully this will change. but this was an extraordinary development. also i think it calls -- i think there's a special role for fox news in this that i'd like to bring up. that is that when you have the president or the people around him lying, all journalists covering that story need to point it out. and this is not, you know, fox, they've got their point of view, that's terrific. but it also is about hard reporting. and we all need to be together on this in terms of the best obtainable version of the truth. that's our job. not complaining and whining
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about the president and about -- look, let's just do our jobs. but all of us need to be calling out lies. >> ed, i want to ask you about your take on the last couple of days and versus today. >> i thought he had a great day today. a lot of the commitments he made in the course of the campaign. i think, at the end of the day he brought some people in that traditionally haven't been in a republican white house in a long time, labor leaders and what have you. i found that the leadership of the house and the senate when they came to their meeting, they kinda looked at him, here's this guy we've been fighting for 18 months, and all of a sudden he's sitting there in the oval office, he's the president, we've got to deal with him now. the reality, he understands the big picture. i think they made a big mistake over the weekend about the size of the crowds and what have you. who cares? at this point in time doesn't matter. there's a long, hard battle ahead. the press, carl, and i know you're obviously a part of that. the press are going to fight this guy and they're going to try to make up for the missed
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story that occurred in this election. they missed the story badly of the changes that were going on in this country, and he tapped into that, and i think the battle will continue. but the reality is that the press secretary got a second shot today and i think if he sticks up to the fact that he's never going to lie, that's a very important thing. but trump is a competitive guy and he's going to basically always challenges things that relate to his view of things. >> it's interesting to see donald trump meeting with republicans and democrats on capitol hill. that's certainly something which president obama was criticized for not doing rightly or wrongly, but it's obviously only the first full work day. what do you make of what you saw? >> glad to see them talking. if something can get done, it should get done. we get back and forth about this, tweet that, you got people out in the country who are hurting and who would like to see america's government work for the american people, period. that's a good thing. at the same time those democrats are sitting there with a different feeling than they would have had the week prior
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because of the protests over the weekend. >> you think that's had an impact on democrats? >> it's given them a sense of, wait a minute now, you know, the tea party protests start off in august of 2009, and it was hundreds of activists, maybe thousands, but more like hundreds of activists going to those town hall meetings. and those minor protests ultimately wound up costing obama the house of representatives within 24 months. what you saw over the weekend, 5 million plus people. these protests start out bigger than the peak of the protests against george w. bush five years into his presidency. and so i think if you're a democrat, at some point, in some ways you got a one-party republican rule here in washington, d.c., but at the same time there's a big pushback coming. so how both sides evaluate each other i think is going to be very interesting over the next several weeks. >> looking at what donald trump
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was focusing on today, which is really jobs, also meeting with congressional leaders and meeting with union leaders, bringing business people. i mean, it is probably the smartest thing for him to do because it just hits home the message that brought him here, which is jobs, jobs, jobs. >> 100%. if you think of any other republican president sitting in that seat on their first day in office, george bush, to a certain degree, even ronald reagan, you would have seen a different slate of action. you wouldn't see a rescinding of the transpacific partnership. that's not a conservative doctrinal position. you wouldn't have seen meetings with union leaders, which is out of the ordinary for a republican president. donald trump is a post partisan president. these protesters will be very surprised because donald trump has been depicted as, in the words of msnbc host hitlerian, but when they see someone in office who is reaching across the aisle and you see someone in office who is probably going to put in place ivanka's plan of paid maternal leave, all of a
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sudden this guy who was so hitlerian or so was described by msnbc commentator seems very palatable and reasonable. >> we'll see. much more to talk about tonight. including what we've been touching on, the notion voiced today by press secretary sean spicer, that the administration is lashing out at the media because it's frustrated and doesn't get the recognition it thinks it deserves. is that a fair point? we'll talk about that. plus, the fbi investigate involving michael flynn's phone call with -- or phone calls with the russian top diplomat and senator bernie sanders' take on that. two out of three people use less than five gigs. now verizon introduces the one plan that's right for you. switch, and for just $55 get five gigs on america's best network. that's tons of data at a cost that's less than an unlimited plan. and the best part, no surprise overages.
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spicer, after the president's remarks to the cia and spicer's own eruption to the press on saturday. jim acosta asked him about both today. here's what he said. >> it's not just about the crowd size. it's about this constant, you know, he's not going to run, then if he runs he's going to drop out, then there's no way he can win pennsylvania, no way he can win michigan. there's this constant theme to undercut the enormous support that he has. and i think it's just unbelievably frustrating when you're continually told it's not big enough, it's not good enough. you can't win. i think over and over again there's this constant attempt to undermine his credibility and the movement that he represents and it's frustrating for not just him but i think so many of us that are trying to work to get this message out. >> sean spicer this afternoon. back with the panel. carl bernstein. what do you make of what he is saying? >> i think there's no necessity for the press secretary to whine like that because donald trump won a great victory and the press knows it and the press has
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reported on it. it is one of the great upsets in american political history. and he deserves all the credit for that that he's getting. that doesn't mean, though, that the picture of america that they're drawing in the white house of this huge mandate is accurate. what it means is that he won the electoral college, he's 3 million votes behind in the popular vote. it's a divided country. it's going to be a fascinating development to watch this occur. but we don't need lying on the part of the white house to advance what they're doing. but nonetheless, the fact that the president tweets, i think it's terrific. it's like an mri of his psyche. it's really amazing. and we get to see it direct, no filter. it's telling us a lot. but let's back off from making the conduct of the press the issue here. the press has reported accurately and fairly on donald trump and the business of lying,
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there was too much of it in the campaign by the candidate, there's too much of it going on now and let them learn from this lesson. >> kayleigh? >> i don't think the press has necessarily been fair. it was important to me and revealing to me when you heard sean spicer say and describe as a real human being what it was like to watch the inauguration and then to go home and turn on the television set and hear this negative critique of what was supposed to be a day of coming together. "new york times," dark and angry speech, abc, this was ugly speech with anti-semitic overtones, this was unnecessarily divisive. these are journalists that americans saw as re-empowering the people. giving the government back to the people. that's how a lot of people saw it. when you have journalists not reporting the words of the president but instead characterizing it as dark saying the same words in fact that came out of the mouths of democratic senators. it is disappointing. and i think it's fair for sean spicer to push back on that. >> that's pretty dark.
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>> i think it's fair for people who have their own views. i have a different understanding of why it's so important, i think, for trump and leaders like trump to talk about the crowd size. you know, ordinary leaders rely on the constitution as a source of legitimacy. knu you get these kind of leaders with these more authoritarian overtones. it's not the power of the constitution, it's the size of their crowds. the legitimacy doesn't come from these documents. they come from the fact that i represent something. i represent these masses that are rising. >> but you're characterizing it as authoritarian overtones. >> yes. >> there's another way you could look at it is that it comes from a donald trump who has a longstanding interest in his numbers, in his ratings on "the apprentice." i mean he's talked about ratings his entire career, the size of his business, you know, even the size of the crowds at the cia on saturday. >> the size of his hands. >> i wasn't going to say it. i wasn't going to say it.
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you said it. right on twitter. no, i wasn't going to say that most of us do see it as some kind of personality thing. it may be 80% personality but it is also part of a strategy. he sees himself as a movement leader. and he sees himself as a movement leader who has now captured state power and he wants to use that on behalf of the movement. but primary for him is this movement, and the way you measure a movement is by crowd size. when you diminish his crowd size, it's not just who cares? this is a blow to his sense of legitimacy. >> i would agree. i think it's a very legitimate point. as i said earlier, he's a competitive guy, he does measure by those kinds of things, ratings, all the rest of it. i would argue with him at this point in time, the lessons i learned six decades ago, when i was a young boxer, you never show pain. when you get hit hard, you never show pain. at the end of the day he's now the president of the united states. he won't get the approval ratings. he's going to be a president who is below 50% through most of his term because we are a polarized society. what he has to do is accomplish things. he won the job.
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he has the opportunity to govern and he has to govern in a way that's unique in the sense that the republicans now have a majority and he's the leader of the republican party, he may not be the leader of the republican philosophy. he has to basically measure his accomplishments. four years from now, if the american public has more jobs and feels good about themselves, he'll win again. that's the measure. up until that point in time it doesn't matter. >> ed makes an important point and kayleigh as well. he's not an ideologue in the traditional sense. there's a lot of positions that conservatives are nervous about, which republicans are nervous about. >> very little about the inaugural address itself that conservatives can relate to. >> yes. >> but that's an opportunity for him to get other people in who ordinarily wouldn't be able to. >> name the other republican president who in the last half of the 20th century started his first day in office with 15 union members in the oval office for a photo op. what's very clearly happening to
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me, it seems, is that donald trump is trying to win over the union vote, win over labor vote, and realign that aspect of the democratic party with the republican party based on trade policy and protectionism. that is totally a separation from the past, from the conservative movement, from free market economics. from everything republicans identify with. how he threads that needle and that dance, how he finds sort of a new center for trade for the republican party is -- >> that's one of the things that will be fascinating in the next four or eight years, however long the administration lasts. more breaking news, new details about the investigation between trump's national security adviser mike flynn. and russia's ambassador to the u.s. plus, my interview with senator bernie sanders, his take on the investigation and president trump's first day in office. we'll be right back. live tv any. join directv today starting at $35 a month. no extra monthly fees.
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more breaking news to tell you about, more information about an investigation between trump's national security adviser mike flynn and russia's ambassador to the u.s. the conversations took place in late december. sean spicer was asked about them in today's press briefing and our chief national security correspondent jim sciutto joins us with the latest. what exactly it is that
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investigators are looking into here? >> so anderson, they're looking into phone calls in late december between general flynn and the russian ambassador to the u.s. we're told by law enforcement and intelligence officials that this investigation continues, and this is crucial, that they're not just looking into the phone calls themselves, rather the fact that they took place. they're looking into some of the content of these calls, in other words, what was said on these calls which raises potential concerns. i should say and make clear at this point they've not established any wrongdoing so far by the national security adviser to trump, general flynn. >> so why was u.s. intelligence listening to phone calls between flynn -- i assume they were listening to phone calls between flynn and the russian ambassador in first place? >> that's right. this is part of routine eavesdropping on russian officials, including diplomats here in the u.s. so to be clear, flynn was not the target. it was the russian official here. this is something that u.s. intelligence agencies do, presumably russian intelligence agencies do to american diplomats and others who are based in russia.
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so that's routine eavesdropping. and sometimes when you're monitoring these calls there might be an american on the other end of the line. and that by itself is certainly not incriminating, but as i said earlier, it's some of the content of those calls, what was said on those calls that is raising -- has at least raised questions which they continue to look into. >> sean spicer was asked about this today. what did he say? >> that's exactly right. he said that he spoke with general flynn as recently as yesterday about these calls. he says that flynn told him there were only two calls, one december 29 and one just a few days ago. and on those calls they did not, for instance, discuss sanctions because on december 29th, the reason that timing is important, that's the very same day the obama administration imposed new sanctions on russia for hacking of the u.s. election. but spicer says that flynn told him that all that was discussed was arranging a call between putin and trump. exchanging some pleasantries, et cetera. they say the trump team says that those sanctions were not discussed. >> jim sciutto, thanks. the intelligence officials
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investigating flynn, leon -- now have a new boss, leon panetta served as cia director in president obama's first term and then served as press secretary. he joins me tonight. what do you think of this that they're scrutinizing calls between president trump's national security adviser, and the russian ambassador to the u.s.? >> well, i don't know that anybody ought to be surprised. it makes good sense. if you've got an fbi investigation going on into possible links between the trump administration or trump individuals and the russians, that you would assume that all phone conversations between those within the administration and the russians would be looked at to determine exactly what was said and just exactly what the relationship was all about. >> should it at this point, though, interfere with michael flynn being able to do his job? because at this point there's no evidence of any wrongdoing.
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>> no, there's no evidence at this point, and i don't think it should. i think mike flynn ought to be able to continue to do his work. we don't know of any specific information that indicates that there was anything that violated the law or violated the issue of whether or not there was, in fact, a relationship here. >> some people have an idea out there that president trump if he doesn't like something about an investigation, could just shut it down, whether it's a cia investigation, fbi investigation, anything under the purview of the executive branch. it's not that simple, though. >> it really isn't. i've heard those same comments. and the fact is that, you know, i've served presidents of the united states who have been concerned about what was happening at the justice department, what was happening with the fbi, but realized there
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was very little that they could do to, in fact, interfere with that. >> when donald trump went to langley, the cia headquarters on saturday, clearly it was an effort to mend any bridges that had been burned, to assure people of his support. he said he backed them 1,000 percent. but he also talked about how big his inaugural crowds were, insinuated that any rift between him and the intelligence community was made up by the media. talked about how many times he'd been on the cover of "time" magazine at one point, all of this in front of the cia's memorial wall. when you were director of the cia you lost intelligence officers, half a dozen or more, whose stars are very likely on that wall. what was your reaction to not only what donald trump said but also where he said it? >> well, you know, i was pleased that the president was going to
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the cia to try to mend some of this relationship between the president and the intelligence community, but the fact that he stood in front of the memorial wall, which is as close as you can get to hallowed ground at the cia, it is really, from my perspective, the same thing as speaking at arlington cemetery. and the fact that he talked initially about the importance of supporting their mission and how important it was to be able to back them and what they were doing, to then go off and talk about the numbers of people at the inauguration, to attack the press, to make some of the other statements that came right out of, you know, the campaign mode that he'd been in before, i just think was the wrong thing to do.
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and very frankly, i think it really demeaned his presence there at the cia. >> do you think he realizes that? do you think the weight of the office, the understanding of the office has settled on him? >> i'm not sure. i'm not sure yet. i think he almost thought like he was standing there and started talking the way he did, that he was before a trump rally in the campaign trail. that's the way it felt. and i think he's got to recognize if he's going to be successful as president of the united states, he has to recognize that being president demands that you respect the responsibility of the presidency and that you exercise some discipline in what you say and how you say it because, you know, the power of the office of
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the presidency is that it commands respect. you're president. and if you misuse it, then i think you do incredible harm to the office itself. >> secretary panetta, appreciate your time. thank you. >> thank you, anderson. coming up next my interview with senator bernie sanders and the inauguration of president trump, the investigation of the flynn calls, the women's marches against trump, and the issues sanders and trump agree on -- trade. only at&t offers you all your live channels and dvr on your devices, data-free. it's entertainment. your way.
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more breaking news tonight comes from president trump's meeting with congressional leaders. he reiterated the claim that 3 to 5 million illegal votes cost him the popular vote in the november election. it's been a busy day at the white house and on capitol hill. president trump took a big step to undo america's trade ties, signing an executive order withdrawing the united states from the transpacific partnership. pulling out of the deal was one of the campaign pledges. it was a goal shared by senator bernie sanders. i talked to senator sanders earlier. i want to talk to you about tpp and a number of specific issues but just overall i mean what do
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you make of this administration on its third full day in the white house, how do you think it's going? >> well, i think that the inaugural speech was certainly not what most americans wanted to hear. i think what most americans wanted to hear that president trump should understand that he's the president for all of our people and not just those who voted for him. i think the incredible turnout yesterday in rallies and marches all across this country, unprecedented and larger, i think, than almost anybody could have believed should tell mr. trump and his cabinet that the american people are deeply concerned about his agenda, about his attack on women's rights and in many other areas. >> on the issue of tpp, the transpacific partnership, that's something that you and the president were in agreement on. were you encouraged that one of
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his first executive actions was to withdraw the u.s. from that trade agreement? >> as you know, millions of workers over the years have stood up and said that our current trade policies, whether it was nafta or cafta or with china was an absolute disaster, we've lost millions of decent paying jobs that we've been engaged in a race to the bottom. during the campaign i spoke out very strongly against the tpp as did hillary clinton and does donald trump. yes, i am very glad that he's ending that. but what has to happen now are two additional factors. number one, mr. trump right now owns factories in countries like bangladesh, mexico, china and turkey where he's paying workers abroad very low wages. now mr. trump during his inaugural said he believes in buy american, hire american workers. if he believes in that, he could set a great example by bringing those jobs back to the united states of america and hiring american workers here. second point is, it's one thing
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to kill the tpp, which is a positive step, in my view, it's another thing to develop a trade policy which finally works for american workers and not the ceos of large multinational corporations. and if mr. trump is serious about moving in that direction, i would be delighted to work with him. >> just for accuracy's sake, i'm not sure that he actually owns factories overseas. some of his merchandise, his clothes were manufactured -- >> that's right. >> -- in factories overseas. >> yeah, that is correct. but the point is the same. the point is that he can and should be manufacturing those products, producing those products right here in the united states. >> i want to ask you about new cnn reporting and i want to be very precise about the language because it matters. cnn is reporting that u.s. investigators are scrutinizing late december calls between mike flynn, president trump's national security adviser, and russia's ambassador to the u.s. as part of a broader counterintelligence investigation of russian activities in the u.s. that's according to law
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enforcement and intelligence officials. now, the white house press secretary said today there have only been two calls between the two men, one just a few days ago and essentially topics discussed shouldn't raise any red flags. do you take the white house at their word? >> well, anderson, all that i can say, not knowing very much about what cnn just reported, all that i can say are maybe two things. number one, i think there's very little doubt that russia hacked into our election and that they were supportive of mr. trump. the question of what kind of involvement trump's campaign may have had with the russians is something that should be looked at. i don't have the answer. but it's something that i think should be thoroughly investigated. >> we'll have more of my interview with senator sanders in the next hour of 360. we'll talk about the women's march and where he thinks the all that enthusiasm should go next. up next more on president trump's move to undo trade ties. his supporters say he's standing firm on his vow to make america great again.
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his critics say it's a move to isolationism. we'll talk with robert reich. who is not a trump fan and trump supporter jeffrey lowered. -- lord. but actually, the majority of people pay for data they never use. that's right, two out of three people use less than five gigs. now verizon introduces the one plan that's right for you. switch, and for just $55 get five gigs on america's best network. that's tons of data at a cost that's less than an unlimited plan. and the best part, no surprise overages. finally, all the data you need, on the network you want. verizon. as ai can embrace a worldber, full of surprising moments.
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and today he fulfilled that promise to sign an order to abandon the partnership for tpp. the 12-nation trade deal had been negotiated during the obama administration. mr. trump says it does not do enough to protect american jobs. >> we're going to stop the ridiculous trade deals that are taking jobs and companies out of our country. and it's going to be reversed. i think you will have a lot of companies come back to our country. companies that left will come back to our country and hire a lot of people. >> the president plans to re-negotiate the north american free trade agreement, nafta, and today he negotiated with companies such as ford and dow chemical. president trump and his supporters, today's moves are all part of his initiative to make america great again, and put america first. critics fear it's also about
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isolationism. joining me now, robert rice, jeffrey lord. secretary rice, i'm wondering what you make of president trump's approach in the first few days, particularly on t perform p and nafta. he is very vocal on the american trade, he was elected with those views, and not hiding them. now he is in a position to implement them. isn't this what an election is about? >> to some extent that's absolutely right. i think the transpacific partnership did have a lot of flaws. i was among those who felt it did need to be rescinded and the united states did need to withdraw from it. i think president trump just put the last nail in the coffin. as far as nafta is concerned, we do need stronger labor and environmental protections in nafta. and also there are a lot of small things that can be done. nafta, it's a little late in the game. because a lot of companies that went to mexico because of nafta
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have left mexico and are now in southeast asia. but what really worries me, it's not just isolationism, it is donald trump's assumption that the world is basically a zero-sum gain, in which we win to the extent that everybody -- somebody else loses. that's donald trump's approach to life in general, i as opposed to. but that's not the way the world economy functions, and it's also not the way world politics functions. his approach to europe, being indifferent to the european union, saying that nafta is obsolete, telling everybody that america comes first. and you have to kowtow to us, assumes that we do not depend upon the prosperity of other nations in the world and that is a very dangerous proposition. >> jeffrey, is that a dangerous proposition? >> well, i just think the secretary has respectfully
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misrepresented this. one of the interesting things here, in the last few days there were all of these calls for gee, we should be united. let's be clear, secretary clinton reversed herself on tpp, separated herself from tpp and agreed with donald trump. and secretary sanders had the same agreement, so there you have bernie sanders, hillary clinton and donald trump and i believe i just heard secretary rice say, they're all on the same page here. that is unity. i think that is a good thing. when he talks about you know, nato for instance, et cetera, to say nato was obsolete is not to say that it's not useful. to use a modern-day term, it needs to be upgraded. >> mr. secretary, when president trump threatens to impose a border tax as he did today to group ceos, that really resonates with a lot of american workers who want their jobs to
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stay in the united states. and like the idea of buying american-made products. >> yes, but it also is going to invite trade retaliation, which will hurt everybody. i want to get back to this situation we're in a positive win-win situation with most countries in the world economically and with most countries politically. obviously there are bad players and vicious places likes isis. but to assume that america first is your policy slogan and your position in the world, in a global economy, in a political economy that is very complicated i think is very dangerous. i have heard from a number of officials in europe informally that they are confused, rattled, upset by what donald trump has stood for. the other thing and the other point related to this that i want to make, anderson, if donald trump was really serious about good jobs in america and strengthening workers' rights and improves america's wages he would come out slugging against
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unions and a lot of things that republicans would be doing to destroy unions he would be in favor of obama's overtime rule, which he says he will rescind, he would be in favor of raising the minimum wage, he would be in favor of keeping the affordable care act. but on all of these grounds, he's going in the opposite direction of american workers. >> jeffrey? >> well, all i can say here, let me give you a local example here in pennsylvania, my dry cleaner complains to me at length, i have learned more about the dry cleaning business than i ever thought i would know about nafta and its effect. about the minimum wage, i mean, these are things that affect local business as they try as hard as they can to employ people, these things are great in academia, great in theory, but at the local level, in fact, they are not working. i'll give you one quick examel
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here. here is a guy who is being asked to clean ladies' garments and pay for the garment. it costs him money. the reason they bleed is because they don't come into the country with the same standards because of nafta. that is part of the problem here, in other words, what we have is a people with disconnect, people who are operating in theory, and living the results. i can only tell you the dry cleaner voted for trump. >> can i just add a note of realism here. we're really talking fundamentally, and the real disconnect is that corporate profits have been rising 300%, that is the most disconnect, most people have not had a raise in 30 years. and yes, part of the problem is globalization without any attention paid to helping people get new jobs, that are good jobs, part of the problem we have an educational system that
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really doesn't work for the majority of americans. we don't have good access to college, the most expensive health care in the world. >> you set it up, mr. secretary. >> let me -- >> but mr. secretary -- >> can i just -- there is a fundamental problem with regard to the allocation of power in this society. and you can't get away from that in describing what is happening to the economy. but donald trump is using the -- citing these things on nafta and tpp, i mean, it's almost a smokescreen from what is really happening here and what the republicans want and what the pay patrons from the party are seeking. >> would you give him credit for that if it helps? >> i would give him enormous credit if we not only had good jobs, but better jobs. one of the big problems is not the number of jobs but also the quality of jobs.
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and i don't believe and believe anybody looking at the global economy and politics believes it's just a they lose, and we win. >> anderson, three words, save this tape. >> okay, jeffrey lord, we will. much more ahead in our next hour, very busy day for president trump and his staff just a week on the job. just a short time ago the senate confirmed his pick for the cia director. and also reactions from our panel as we continue. i have the worst cold with this runny nose. i better take something. dayquil liquid gels don't treat your runny nose. seriously? alka-seltzer plus cold and cough liquid gels fights your worst cold symptoms plus your runny nose. oh, what a relief it is. like bundling home and auto coverage, which reduces redney. tape, which saves money. when they save, you save. that's home and auto insurance for the modern world.
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good evening, another full hour of "ac360," breaking news, another full day for president trump, we just learned something he said about his congressional leaders, that may speak volumes where his head is. that's where we begin with phil mattingly who has the details. what have you learned, phil? >> well, anderson, what is described to me by one source as a bizarre and awkward turn, during that private meeting with the congressional members, the president recounted that between the idea that between 3 and 5 illegal million votes were cast against him during the election illegally. this is just something not true, flatly not true. no evidence presented by trump or his top associates to back up