tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN January 26, 2017 12:00am-1:01am PST
good evening. hope you had a great day. thanks for joining us. there's no shortage of news tonight. it's been that way every day since trump took office. he's been signing orders and also dealing with controversy after making two false claims since taking office. now some of president trump's supporters on this program and elsewhere, have said those false claims aren't really a story. they say our focus should be just on those executives actions. well, we think the fact is, we can do both and we will do both, as we've been doing since president trump took office. it's a big deal when the president of the united states says things that aren't true. we believe words and facts matter. it's also a big deal when a new president signs a dozen
executive actions in six days, fulfilling campaign promises. we begin with president trump's call for a federal investigation into widely debunked allegations of voter fraud. new comments made by the president to david muir tonight. >> but what i'm asking, when you say, in your opinion, millions of illegal votes, that is something that is extremely fundamental to our functioning democracy, a fair and free election. >> sure. >> you say you're going to launch an investigation into this. >> sure, done. >> what you have presented so far has been debunked. >> take a look at the pough report. >> i did. he told me there was no evidence of voter fraud. >> then why did he write the report? i always talk about the reporters that grovel when they want to write something that you want to hear, but not necessarily millions of people want to hear, or have to hear. >> so you've launched an
investigation? >> we're going to launch an investigation to find out, and then the next time -- i will say this, of those votes cast, none of them come to me, none of them come to me. they would all be for the other side. none of them come to me. but when you look at the people that are registered, dead, illegal, in two states, in some cases, maybe three states, we have a lot to look into. >> well, just before air time, house speaker paul ryan weighed in, telling greta van susteren that he hasn't seen evidence of widespread fraud, but supports an investigation. jason chaffetz says the president can do what he wants with the justice department, but his committee is not planning to investigate. joining us right now is david becker, the one responsible for the pough report that president trump mentioned and the one he says is now groveling. david, appreciate you being with us. you didn't seem to be groveling last night or tonight, but we'll see how the interview goes. [ laughter ] you heard president trump in that clip saying to, quote, take a look at the pough report.
so let's do that. the pough report, which, again, i just want to point out, you authored. did it find any widespread voter fraud? >> so i contributed to that report when i was at pough. it was released in february of 2012. and that report made no findings with regard to fraud whatsoever. the report does not hide the ball at all. it's not a very long report at all. it's on the pough website. read it. it's an interesting study of the voter rolls, trying to determine what were the challenges election officials faced in keeping voter lists up to date as people moved. but as the report itself says and as i stated at the time in 2012 and subsequently, even before the election when this came up, it just makes no findings with regard to fraud. >> so we should point out, voter fraud, people being registered in two states, somebody who is dead, still on the rolls, that is not voter fraud. voter fraud is somebody voting illegally. somebody who should not be
voting, correct? >> yeah, that's a very important point. literally millions of people are moving in any given year. and when they move, they might go to their new state. they might get a new driver's license. they might register to vote in their new state, but they don't think to cancel their voter registration in their previous state. it's very difficult to do even if they thought to try to do that. that's why we see things like the news that came out today, that the treasury secretary nominee, and adviser steve bannon both have active registrations in multiple states. >> so does tiffany trump, the president's daughter. >> yes, exactly. and they're not committing fraud. i think in all likelihood, they moved and election officials had a difficult time getting enough data to confirm that they had indeed moved so they could remove them from their old state. this is something that millions of americans experience, but it's getting much better since
2012. in 2016 and 2017, voter lists are more accurate probably than ever before thanks to the efforts of a bipartisan group, republicans and democrats, who have worked to improve the quality of the voter list and ensure that only those eligible can vote. >> so when president trump says, if there wasn't voter fraud, why are you doing the study, your study was looking at the incidents of multiple registrations, people who have died, and just the difficulties the voting system has, is that right? >> that's right. we have been working with election officials for years who are facing this problems of keeping up with the mobility of americans. in working with them, we wanted to quantify the nature of that problem and do some quality, non-partisan, data-driven research to do that. so there was a very good reason for doing that. in fact, that report led to a lot of positive reforms that happened since then with online voter registration spreading to 33 states, plus d.c., to more states sharing data between them so they can keep voter records
up to date and get more registered voters onto the list. so that report had the impact we hoped. >> finally, when the president of the united states says you are groveling, i have to give you a chance to respond to it. i don't know what it means exactly, but are you groveling? >> yeah, i don't know what to say about that. i certainly didn't ask to have the report cited by any political candidate. my only interest here is that the research that i and many others have done over time is cited accurately. and that we get an accurate picture of what's really going on in our election system. and that accurate picture is, our election system is remarkably secure. and the republican and democratic officials who run it all over the country work very hard to make sure that only those who are eligible can vote, but those who are eligible, have an easy time voting. that's why study after study from the bush doj to the federal election commission to professors at academic institutions, to republican and democratic secretaries of state
who investigate this, they've all found there's a slight amount of voter fraud in the united states. >> david becker, appreciate your time. let's dig deeper into the investigation itself, how it might work, who it might involve. emma brown joins us now. who would be involved in trump's widespread claims of voter fraud? >> we're learned from a senior administration official that he's eyeing an executive order on voter fraud. and the expectation would be the department of justice would lead the charnege, but i've spoken t many officials who are perplexed about this. because typically for doj and the fbi to open an investigation, there's predication, a specific, credible allegation. someone calling in and saying something occurred, or specific evidence. and as we know, this allegation that there was widespread voter fraud, millions voted illegally, is completely baseless. so frankly, it would unprecedented for the department
of justice to lead the charge in an investigate like this. the president has other options. he could appoint a special prosecutor. he could ask a congressional committee to investigate. but as you point out earlier, politicians on capitol hill are signaling they have no interest in investigating this, anderson. >> and recently trump's own legal team suggested there was no fraud in documents filed with the court. the president is only talking about focusing on states where he himself didn't really compete, where he didn't visit, california and others, right? >> right. california, new york, we heard sean spicer cite those two staths, they voted overwhelmingly against donald trump. and trump's white house counsel filed a brief in december saying there's no evidence the election was tainted by voter fraud. that was in response to jill stein's vote recount effort in michigan. so today sean spicer said, we're going to go broader, we're not looking at the states where it was a close count. we're looking at states like
california and new york, where there was a different margin and where clearly hillary clinton won the popular vote. so it's yet to be seen how this is all going to play out, anderson. >> pam brown, appreciate it. with us, kirsten powers, kaley mcan any, margaret hoover, and jonathan taseeny. >> kirsten, it's interesting to hear the president -- i would have no problem with investigation to fix any problems in the voting system, if there's a lot of dead people on rolls, if there's people registered in multiple states. that is not voter fraud, which is what the president is alleging, massive three to five million illegally voting, it would be the biggest voter fraud ever. >> we have to think about what it would take to get people to show up and pretend to be those dead people. that's what it would have to take. and i think it's confusing to a lot of people who are watching. they hear dead people on the voter rolls and they think something smells, it doesn't sound right. but then someone has to get a
person to go and pretend to be that person and it has to happen millions of times. right? so i think that this is pretty crazy stuff. it really is. and the fact that they're singling out states like california and new york as if it's suspicious that people would vote for a democrat in those states. those are democratic states. >> and president trump did not really compete in california. he wasn't spending hundreds of millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars to compete in california, which hillary clinton clearly was competing in california. >> exactly. so to single out and then for him to say, i can guarantee that it would not be voters for me, how can he guarantee that? it's crazy. >> kaley? >> look, i agree with you that it was not millions of people. i haven't seen the evidence. donald trump claims to have it. i'd like to see that. what i disagree with, though, is whoz who are calling donald trump a liar. how dare he lie about this? when in fact it's nearly impossible to prove that he's
lying, particularly when we have a peer-review study that says 6% of the illegal immigration population said to congress in a congressional study who said, yes, we voted. i don't mind him calling the study, but i think he would advantage himself to be looking forward, rather than retrospective which would call into question his election and the popular vote. >> there is no voter fraud. this is complete fantasy. what there is plenty of in the united states is voter suppression. what happens in many states, particularly republican governors pass laws to try to prevent people from voting. i talked about this before the show. the voting system in this country is deficient. it's messed up. it has nothing to do with fraud. it has to do with people's ability to actually vote to get access, to have enough voting machines, people voting rights suppressed in many states.
in this state, during the primary between hillary clinton and bernie sanders, 120,000 votes just disappeared in brooklyn. that didn't necessarily disadvantage one over the other, but it just showed that we have a broken system. had in t in the same way that donald trump began a conversation about sexual harassment, that he probably sexually assaulted women in multiple instances, i think this is a missed opportunity, because we have to have a debate about an election system that's broken. >> margaret? >> yes, voter suppression happens. voter fraud happens around the edges, if we're honest about it. but the idea of the scale, three to five million people actually didn't -- unauthorized people here, that's, to use kirsten's word, crazy. but if we're honest, it's been documented that donald trump has a bee in his bonnet about not having won the popular vote and he can't let it go. and that's what's shaking around in his mind. and we know that he has a history of really informing
himself based on anecdotal rns ands rather than really reading books or reading studies or reading papers. because otherwise he would see that there is no evidence for this. >> i feel -- i mean, i don't know if i should say this, but i feel bad for somebody, i mean, he won an extraordinary victory. what he did was incredible. it was an incredible election, the amount of money hillary clinton spent, the small amount of money donald trump spent, he won an incredible victory. the fact that he doesn't feel that and take joy in that is amazing to me. >> i agree with that, but i'm going to disagree a little bit with what margaret said. because on the right, there is this drum beat all the time about voter fraud. and that they're always claiming, doing these stories, if you listen to right-wing media, they're always telling people that elections are being stolen and what do we need to do about it, we need to have voter i.d., and that keeps who from voting? usually people who vote for
democrats. so i don't think it's a scattered shot as it seems. so maybe part of it is ego and part of it agenda driven. >> go ahead. >> one in eight people on the voting rolls who are dead or duplicated, so when you cobble that with a system where you don't have to show i.d. when you vote, and we've had 700 convictions of voting fraud, this is a problem, but it wasn't part of donald trump's platform. i think to make it your rallying cry right now when we can build the wall and do all the things that i think are really important -- >> but having dead people on the rolls is different than voter fraud. [ all speak at once ] >> it's interesting, steve bannon, and tiffany trump have multiple registrations. >> and if i can do the groveling, she made an excellent point. this is a long-standing republican strategy, which is to question voting, say there's all this voter fraud, in order to suppress the vote on the part of democratic leaning voters.
this goes back way before donald trump. >> it is not an effort to suppress the vote. when you have an leelection determined by a hundred something votes -- this is not -- >> these are republican strategies to reduce the number of democratic votes. >> i just want to ask you, you're a smart person and you have goodwill. and you just said the thing about hundreds of dead people on the rolls. where's the breakdown? because those hundred people have to go and vote. there has to be a conspiracy to get people to go and impersonate dead people and vote. where is that happening? >> we've seen democratic operatives caught on camera -- >> to the point that you could swing an election, though. >> i don't think any of us would argue there aren't people out there that do bad things, but what we're talking about here, especially what trump is saying,
millions of people, that's a conspiracy of having the names on the rolls, finding out who all the dead people are and then going and finding millions of individual americans to walk into places, pretend to be dead people and vote. where is the evidence? >> there's a video that has caught democratic operative on camera trying to do just that. >> but that's a couple people. >> and we had a few hundred votes in florida that determined a presidential election. >> but that's two or three people at best. >> the number of people convicted it's .0004% of the total electorate. [ all speak at once ] >> in 2000, the election came down to a few hundred votes. >> but that's national and when you have to go state by state by state, it is absolutely roobaro the margins. >> and the margins matter. >> we haven't seen it. [ all speak at once ] >> we haven't seen voter fraud change an election. that is a fact. >> but we have seen an election come doub to a few hundred
votes. >> all right, everyone, appreciate it. coming up next, president trump's order today launching the process of building a wall along the southern border. mexico's president weighs in on this, and on donald trump's claim that his country will reimburse american taxpayers for it. we talked to him a short time ago. he was very candid. we'll play that for you. the irs announced
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mexico's president is under pressure tonight to cancel an upcoming trip to washington, following a pair of executive actions the president signed, including one on the wall that he promised during the campaign to make a top priority, which he has. jim acosta joins us now from the white house with late details. did the president talk about who's going to be paying for the wall in this? >> anderson, he insists mexico will pay for the wall eventually. first they'll use existing money in the department of homeland security budget to get the project started and seek more funds from congress. the president is saying that mexico will pay the u.s. back, but there are no specifics on how that is going to happen. and anderson, he simply can't authorize the billions of dollars needed to build the wall on his own. he's going to need help from congress. >> did he say how he would
implement everything that was announced today? >> some details. the president said he's directing dhs to step up identification of undocumented criminals in this country, so they can be removed and deported. and the administration is going to start warning the so-called sanctuary cities that they have to stop harboring undocumented immigrants, or they're going to lose some federal money. but the cities may not comply with this, anderson. chicago's mayor, rahm emanuel said today that his city will continue to act as a sanctuary city. so this is very much a work in progress. >> the president of mexico is supposed to visit president trump next week. what's the latest on the status of that visit. >> as you said at the start of this, the mexican president is under tremendous pressure to cancel this trip, now that president trump has announced his plan for the wall. as of this hour, i'm told by the white house the visit between the two leaders is still on. they met in mexico city over the summer and at the time the
mexican president told mr. trump his country is not paying for that wall. so things could get dicey with mexico, which has been a critical ally and trading partner for decades. turning to the former mexican president, he tweeted that mexico is not paying for that wall, with an expletive in the middle of that sentence. >> you'll hear from him in just a second. shortly after signing the executive action on the wall, president trump doubled down on his claim that mexico will reimburse u.s. taxpayers for the cost of it. he spoke with abc's david muir. >> and we will be, in a form, reimbursed by mexico. >> so they'll pay us back? >> absolutely, 100%. >> so the american taxpayer will pay for the wall at first? >> all it is, we'll be reimbursed at a alelater date f whatever transaction we make with mexico. >> before he never talked about
reimbursing. but either way, i spoke to vicente fox, who has been a critic of the trump plan. we're learning that the mexican president is under pressure to cancel his trip to the u.s. would that be the right move? >> it's extended, deep pressure, and i'm sure he's considering it, because the behavior on his counterpart is horrible. it's not worth sitting with a guy that is so fixed on his ideas, that he's so authoritarian, and that it's only looking after gaining the momentum, recuperating what he lost last weekend. so he is considering it. and my thinking is that he should consider it, that if at any point in time when he's sitting with the president, he's again aggressive with mexico,
he's again offending mexico, if he is mentioning that he will impose 35% taxation on cars made in mexico, president pena should stand up, should get out of there, and should tell him, we don't need your nafta. we can live without it. you cannot. you cannot because of the food, the grain that u.s. put to mexico, the meat. yes, the $40 million u.s. -- 40 billion, that you export of our automobiles, luxury, trucks, agricultural machinery, motor parts, auto parts, it's over $40 billion. which means, again, millions of jobs for u.s. the mirror strategy will apply. you tax mexican imports, we will takes u.s. imports in mexico. >> he's saying he will take
concrete steps to build the wall, getting that going by way of executive action. initially he's saying he's probably going to have to get money from congress. he does continue to say that ultimately mexico will pay for it, whether it's directly, whether it's through renegotiating trade agreements, whether it's taxing remittances that are sent from people in the united states to mexico. do you think the wall will ever get built? >> i have said and i have told donald that mexico will never pay for that [ bleep ] wall. and now i have to repeat it, to this guy spicer, which is exactly the same line he repeated this morning. mexico's going to pay. they better understand that we are not paying for that wall. that u.s. taxpayers will pay for that wall, and it is a wall that is a waste. it serves no purpose on the objectives that are set for
that. >> so when americans, though, who support donald trump, who want that wall built, what do you say to them? why is it something -- they're saying, every country should be able to control its border. there's a problem on the southern border. why isn't a wall part of the solution? >> i just saw a poll that mentioned that 80% of trump followers, which in the very end, 25% of u.s. population, that's all he has, 80% are not in favor. but when you talk about all american people, it's scarcely 40%. so the big majority is not in favor of building a wall. >> but to those who are, what do you say? why isn't a wall acceptable? >> it's stupid. it doesn't work. there is already a wall. it's at least covering 70% of the border line. a wall, big wall. the remaining 30% is desert, it's places that there's no people there. why is he going to waste
taxpayers' money in this stupid wall? it's just a waste of money. >> what do you see as the relationship moving forward between mexico and the united states? what do you think it's actually going to look like under president trump? >> with united states, it's excellent. it should be kept excellent. we both have constructed a great nafta, north american, successful, competitive, great worldwide, canada, the united states, and mexico. there's no reason to change that. that's u.s., that's america. but trump is a different thing. he doesn't seem to be an american. he's a false prophet that is taking that nation into the desert. >> one of the things, though, that donald trump believes and many of his supporters believe as well, is that mexico needs to do more to stop people from crossing the border illegally,
to stop people from coming up from central america, through mexico, into the united states. >> yeah, we are doing that, anderson. today, the amount of mexicans crossing the border undocumented is less than half of what it used to be. what is changing is the central americans. today, 80% of people crossing that border to attain work, comes from central america. trump doesn't even know that. how is he going to find out those supposedly 11 million mexicans that are in united states, undocumented, he doesn't know where they are. and furthermore, these people returning to mexico, is because mexico now has full employment in my region, which is 60% of mexican population, is full employment, and salaries are going up. so we finally are doing it.
why the stubbornness of trump to try to provoke a mexico in poverty, that's not to the advantage of united states. imagine having in your backyard people with hunger, people unemployed, people that get violent because of the hate and because of the fences they have received. what is the win for united states on this stupid proposal of trump? i really mean that. >> president fox, i appreciate your time tonight. thank you. >> thank you, anderson. good luck. just ahead, more reaction to president trump's orders, not just to build a wall, but also to ramp up immigration enforcement. i'll talk to jorge ramos, one of trump's most vocal critics on immigration.
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our breaking news, president trump has signed executive actions to ramp up immigration enforcement, including building a border wall. he directed the new homeland security secretary to look for ways to limit funding for sanctuary cities, cities that don't report undocument the immigrants to federal authorities. he talked a lot about sanctuary cities earlier on the campaign
trail. earlier i talked about all this with jorge ramos. >> whether one disagrees or agrees with terrorism, as president, one can't say they are surprised by his executive actions. essentially they're fulfilling campaign promises he's made. what's your reaction? what are you hearing from your viewers? >> what's happening in the hispanic community, we understand that it's a major undertaking to build a wall between mexico and the united states. about 1900 miles, there are already fences and walls about 600, 700 miles. so if you want to build 1200 miles of walls between mexico and the united states, it's going to cost you billions of dollars and it's completely useless. it doesn't work. walls don't work. they gave you a false sense of security. but we discussed in the past about 40% of all immigrants, undocumented immigrants who come here to the united states, they came by plane, or they
overstayed their visas. so it doesn't matter how much donald trump is gonna spend and it doesn't matter that he fulfills his campaign promise, it isn't going to work. >> with the wall, it seems like there are a lot of details that haven't been filled in by this administration. do you think it's going to happen because there are obviously parts of the border which there's water, there's mountains, you can't build a wall on. >> exactly. and that's precisely the problem. there are many different estimates, but i've seen from 10 billion to $40 billion. i think if donald trump wants to spend $40 billion doing that, he can do whatever he wants with the money. but the fact is, he can use that for immigration reform, for many other projects. and also, if he's interested in stopping drugs coming into the united states, well, i know that el chapo was the most important drug trafficker, he's already in a new york jail. but there are many other little chapos who are working on this side of the border, on mexico's
side too. and they're building tunnels. so there's nothing you can do. if there are millions of americans who use drugs in this country, and as long as you have millions of americans using drugs, you have drug traffickers in mexico and central america bringing the drugs. so when it comes to illegal immigration, they're going to keep on coming. when it comes to drugs, they're going to keep on coming, with a wall, or without a wall. there are meab othany other way spend $40 billion. >> the president has called for a 5,000 personnel increase in border protection. do you think that will make a difference? >> might make a difference. they are not calling that a deportation force, but he'll go from 21,000 to 26,000. and this is creating a lot of fear within the hispanic community. and within the immigrant community. so what is that going to mean to many families? basically we're talking about the destruction of many families.
one area that concerns me a lot is that the policy of catch and release. in which if you were an undocumented immigrant, coming from guatemala with a child, and you say you're being persecuted or feeling violence, or a gang threatened you, you are allowed to be here in the united states. well, that catch and release policy is going to end. and if that happens, then here's my question to donald trump, are you going to start deporting children, mr. trump? is that what you're going to be doing? because that's what he announced today. without catch and release, that means that thousands and thousands of children whose only option to live is to come to the united states, is going to end. >> when it comes to stripping federal funding for sanctuary cities, there's big resistance from leaders in those cities. many say they'll not comply with the federal government. short of the feds sending in people to round up undocumented immigrants, how does it fsaffec
them if the cities say they'll protect them? >> i think what we'll be seeing is a real fight, a political fight between the mayors of some of the most important cities in the country, namely los angeles, san francisco, chicago, and new york, against donald trump. because no one really is defending undocumented immigrants in this country. mexico, unfortunately, has remained silent in all these debate, and who is defending immigrants in this country? this is a country founded by immigrants. and i'm very concerned about this anti-immigrant measures taken by president trump. he's portraying immigrants in a false way. he's portraying immigrants as it they are criminals and terrorists and rapists. and that's not true. all the studies that i've seen, absolutely all the studies that i've seen, conclude that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes. immigrants are less likely to be behind bars. let me just refer you to the american immigration consular's
report. it's fantastic in that sense. so it seems to me that donald trump wants to criminalize immigrants. he's trying to create an enemy, and immigrants are not the enemy of the united states. >> one thing that president trump has not acted on yet is dhaka. short of leaving daca in place, which the trump administration is not saying they'll do, is there a compromise between those who are against daca and those who support it? >> i hope that there's something new about daca. i know the dreamers, 750,000 dreamers in the united states, who are protected against deportation. they have work permits. they have driver's licenses. and it seems that's the only area that i can see right now, with a little hope, in which maybe, i don't know, but maybe donald trump will realize that there's no reason whatsoever to deport these children who are truly american. the only difference is that they don't have a paper to show it. and legalize them through the so-called bridge act that would protect them for three years and
eventually, hopefully, legalize them permanently. >> jorge ramos, thank you. >> thank you, anderson. just ahead tonight, water boarding. in his first post election interview, president trump says he's open to bringing it back. the reaction to that. we'll be right back. cloud helpss stay connected. the microsoft cloud offers infinite scalability. the microsoft cloud helps our customers get up and running, anywhere in the planet. wherever there's a phone, you've got a bank, and we could never do that before. the cloud gave us a single platform to reach across our entire organization. it helps us communicate better. we use the microsoft cloud's advanced analytics tools to track down cybercriminals. this cloud helps transform business. this is the microsoft cloud.
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as we said, a very busy day for president trump. nilti in addition to his executive actions on immigration, his call for an investigation into a widely debunked voter fraud. he also said water boarding works and he'd like to bring it back. >> as far as i'm concerned, we have to fight fire with fire. with that being said, i'm going with general mattis. i'm going with my secretary, because i think pommp dwro thin to be phenomenal. but i have spoken as recently as 24 hours ago with people at the highest level of intelligence, and i asked them the question, does it work? does torture work? and the answer was, yes, absolutely. >> president trump also said he was defer to the officials who would be in charge of carrying out his policies, mattis and
pompeo. just to be clear, it is illegal under a 2015 law, to use water boarding in interrogations. pompeo told congress in writing, he would consider bringing back so-called enhanced interrogation measures under certain circumstances. general mattis has said he wants to use the army field manual, in other words no water boarding. republicans heard about the water boarding and manu raju has the latest. what do they have to say about the comments from the president? >> well, they're not supportive, anderson. in fact, last congress overwhelmingly voted to so-called limit interrogation techniques to the army field manual. that was voted by 78-21 margin. that manual excludes enhanced methods, which people call torture, including water boarding. i had a chance to ask the number
three senate republican whether he supports this idea of bringing back water boarding and going back to the route before that limitation went into law. he wasn't so supportive. take a listen. >> those issues are set in law. congress has spoken, and when it comes to enhanced interrogation techniques and that sort of thing, my understand is, i haven't seen the new executive action or what's being proposed, but my understanding is they're going to look at, examine some of those issues. but with respect to torture, that's banned. the army field manual makes that very clear, and the law now is tied to the army field manual. now, anderson, this is an issue that divides the republicans here at this retreat where they're trying to get on the same page behind donald trump's rather ambitious agenda. i also had a chance to talk to the vice president, former vice president dick cheney's daughter, liz cheney, who is a congressman from wyoming now,
she believes those techniques worked, but she's not supportive of changing the law. she would not go that far. so it shows if donald trump does go this far, he might have a fight with his own party. >> all right, thank you very much. joining me now, cnn counterterrorism analyst and fbi senior official phil mudd. you worked at the cia, briefed folks who were involved in these techniques. >> spoke with them, yes. >> does torture work? >> to be clear, torture violates federal statutes. if you put someone under duress, forget about water boarding, sleep def riffation, something we used more often. do people give you information over days and weeks when they're under tremendous duress? the answer is yes. they would lie if you didn't subject them to deprivation. so we found information i thought was not only valuable, but critical in the fight. >> he said he asked people at
the highest level if torture works and they said yes. so in terms of water boarding, is that something -- it's outlawed now. >> yeah. >> what would bringing it back mean? would it even be possible? >> i don't think it would be. a couple things. first, you gotta understand, i don't think the president understands this, there are multiple layers to consult, including members of his own party saying "no." if you're at the cia, you want a pile of papers six feet high before you even consider this. number one, what does the department of justice say? does it comply with u.s. law? then you've got to go to pompeo and say, not only are you willing to do this, but are you willing to subject your people to what happens in four or eight years when another congress says, we don't agree and now we're going to hunt you down and suggest that you violated law and prosecute you. there's a lot of steps. >> the idea of re-opening black sites, what do you make of that? >> i don't think it's going to happen. if you're the cia director, you
come back and ask a simple question. we sat around the table in 2002. let me give you the picture of the adversary. we didn't understand al qaeda, their hierarchy. thought they had access to anthrax. they did. we were wondering the next 9/11, would it be wmd? fast forward to 2016, the threat we face is much lower. so my question is not whether it's appropriate or whether it works, why would you do it today? >> because the president is saying, we're seeing techniques by isis, people being burned alive in cages, people being drowned alive, children beheading people, and you gotta fight fire with fire. >> excuse me. the litmus test for whether we use these operations, these activities, is not what an adversary that's a terrorist organization does. that's our litmus test. it's not whether we punish
somebody. the question is whether this country feels under such intense pressure as it did in 2002 to conduct things that now think badly of american values because we think 3,000 people are going to die tomorrow. it's not what isis thinks is okay. >> the reason the army field manual and the military doesn't condone this is because if one side starts doing it, if the u.s. starts doing it, it's hard to make the argument that when the enemy captures american troops, that they don't use the same techniques on them. >> it's a fair point. after 2002 when we captured our first prisoner. let me take you inside that room in 2002 and hope we never face that moment again. because here's what you will face. and all of us made the same decision. he looked at us, when we thought there might be anthrax, nuclear, might be 3,000 more people, more jumpers from the world trade center, and said, why don't you go home and have babies? because i'll never talk again. and we thought he held part of the secret to stopping the next
event. if you're under that kind of pressure, you might take a step, regardless of understanding that isis might look and say, we'll do the same thing. >> appreciate it. coming up, we'll hear from a syrian family who arrived in vermont one week ago. wou we'll hear from them. are they afraid? we'll be right back.
tonight breaking news, a senior white house official says president trump's denouncement on refugees will not come tomorrow, but instead, he'll take execive action on trade. the new immigration policy will be coming soon, and it's expected to suspend the refugee program for up to six months. it would end a program for admitting syrian refugees indefinitely. we've been trying to get into the field and tell the stories who are living the impact of the new administration. sometimes it's positive, sometimes not. we're calling it america uncovered. >> reporter: one week, that's how long this syrian family has been in the united states. they arrived just two days before donald trump was inaugurated. hazar mansour was a french teacher. her husband, an accountant. they fled from damascus to turkey with their children to escape the violence. after two years of background
checks, they finally made it to vermont. >> translator: we were worried about ourselves. worried about our children. we came here, we want to live in peace. it's better than living in the war situation we were in. >> reporter: they are the first of about 25 syrian and iraqi families expected to arrive in rutland, vermont, by september. about 100 refugees in all. rutland's mayor invited them to settle in his city around the same time then candidate donald trump vowed, if elected, he'd stop the flow of refugees into the u.s. and deport the ones already here. >> this is just plain the right thing to do from a compassionate and humanitarian perspective. >> reporter: but that's not will only reason he's welcoming the refugees to his city. he's hoping they'll help revitalize it. the city has suffered a major population loss, making it hard for companies to fill jobs. the mayor is hoping syrian refugees will not only add to the population, but also the
workforce. the unemployment rate here is about 3%, dangerously low, says the mayor. >> we've got dozens, scores, of employers in this community, saying they've got hundreds of job openings they just can't fill. >> reporter: but now, his whole plan to revive rutland could be in jeopardy, pending an executive order from president donald trump. >> i think all of us have some fears about that. i think his concerns are misplaced. the security measures are in place for refugees, especially coming from syria, will not put this community at risk. that's a fact. >> reporter: this couple is hosting the syrian family until their apartment is ready. >> do you wish that president trump could meet the couple and the family that you have in your home? >> i wish that anyone who thinks that it is a bad idea for them to come could just even take a little snapshot. they're wonderful people. they're not coming here to harm us. they're coming here to escape harm. >> reporter: tim cook, a doctor
in town, says he doesn't want refugees settling in his city. not because he thinks they're dangerous. but because he thinks they'll end up costing taxpayers money. >> so are you saying the mayor and whoever decided the refugees should come here got it all wrong? >> yes. unequivocally. >> reporter: he says he fully supports president trump's opposition to taking in refugees? >> i think we've done enough as a country. i'm tapped out, and this nation is tapped out. we need to fix our own problems first, and then we can reconfigure and see if we can rescue the rest of the world. >> reporter: this family says they're not worried about president trump's plan. they feel safe and secure in vermont already. >> i like vermont, and people vermont. >> reporter: the people? >> yes. >> reporter: . the people. yes. >> you like to ski?
>> i like skiing. >> new sport. >> yes. >> reporter: one week, they he hope it is only the beginning of their new life in the united states. >> randi joins us. if the policy shifts, does that change the family we met? >> the group and the family are not. the family that is here is safe. donald trump wants to halt the program and he wants to ex-spell, his word. they might still be in jeopardy. anderson, the group is waiting for 250 refugees. those people have spent two years in refugee camps with background checks and security clearance. they may not enter and have to start the process all over. they would have to wait in the camps for possibly another two years to get the clearance.
the group is working with the white house calling them and trying to get traction on social media. all they can do now is wait and hope. >> randi, thank you. that does it for us for "360." "early start" begins now. we will be in a form reimbursed by mexico. >> they will pay us back? >> absolutely. >> the president gives the first interview since sworn in. tackling immigration and border wall. and executive switcheroo. executive action coming today, but not what we thought. this after the backlash on the mexico border wall. and remembering mary tyler moore. the actress has passed away at the age of 80. we have a look back at her iconic moment