tv At This Hour With Kate Bolduan CNN June 6, 2017 8:00am-9:01am PDT
the breaking news, an attacker neutralized in the notre dame cathedral square. thank you so much for the latest reporting. >> all right, thank you. we have much more on this breaking news, of course, with kate bolduan. "at this hour with kate bolduan" "at this hour with kate bolduan" begins right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com hello, everyone. i am kate bolduan. we are following the breaking news out of paris at this moment. police, we are told, have shot and injured an attacker outside the notre dame cathedral in paris. this is according to afp news citing sources there. sources also tell reuters that the attacker went after police with a hammer. paris police have tweeted, asking the public to avoid this very popular tourist attraction, this very popular area. police are saying, please avoid this area right now. and joining me at this moment, art roderick is here, former u.s. marshal and cnn law enforcement analyst, and mike baker, former cia operative here
with me. our layout, what would be the protocol be at this moment? you're talking about one of the most visible landmarks in paris, one of the most visited historic sites in paris, and police basically trying to have it on lockdown at the moment, telling people to avoid the area. what's the protocol right now? >> i mean, the protocols have been laid out pretty well by law enforcement and security forces there around that area. i mean, that is one of the most visible landmarks in paris, so any time there's any type of attack, they do have a standard protocol that they go into. and here we have an individual using a hammer, a pretty crude weapon. it's almost as if it's a suicide by cop in this particular instance. what's interesting is that the individual is still alive, which is great that they can get some deep intel from him as to what his motive is. that's going to be the key part here, what is his motive. i mean, you have to jump right
to the assumption that this is some type of terror attack, but confronting security forces that are armed is pretty much, as we all know, a suicide mission. >> yeah, but also, attacking law enforcement, attacking the public with anything you can get your hands on is also one of the directives that we have heard recently in recent times, right, art, from terrorists. >> no, no, absolutely. we've been through this scenario, unfortunately, for the past year and a half or so, where this information has been put out on the internet to grab a knife, grab any type of weapon at all, grab a vehicle, and do as much damage as you can. the fact that they're attacking security forces, hopefully trying to inflict some damage there, is something a little different, although we have seen it in the past. but to me, it seems like this is a scenario that when you attack a law enforcement officer with a handgun, you're not going to get
very far. >> all right, i just want to bring us up to date. there are a lot of little details coming in. lots, though, yet to be known, as this is unfolding as we speak. paris police have told cnn that we have confirmed that a man attacked a policeman with a hammer. that policeman shot this man. he says for the moment, the man is wounded, not dead. we do not know the severity of this man's injuries at the moment. let me bring in mike baker, joining the conversation, a former cia operative at the moment. mike, this comes at a time when europe's on high alert, the united states is on high alert, but especially europe is on high alert. if you're in your old post speaking to your intelligence colleagues right now, where are the conversations? >> well, in counterterrorism, you tend to be a little bit -- i hate to see this -- fatalistic. you know you'll never be able to stop everything. so your job is to do everything possible in consult with partners and liaison partners to disrupt and prevent. that's what you're trying to do, but in the back of your mind,
you know you can't stop everything. look, they've dumbed it down to, as you've pointed out, art pointed out, it's a hammer, it's a knife, it's a truck. and it's fine, because from their perspective, every attack is a win, every attack advances the ball from isis or al qaeda's perspective. now, again, we're at the beginning of this. >> exactly right. >> it's a very fluid investigation. >> exactly. >> so, the good news, as i pointed out, is that the attacker is still alive, hopefully. that will allow for interrogation. that will allow for, hopefully, operational leads. and what are they looking for? well, obviously, the identity, obviously, the motivation, but also associates. and is there anything else behind this particular individual? and again, what motivated him? >> right. >> it matters to us. from isis' point of view or al qaeda, if it goes in that direction, they don't care. they don't care whether he's a true believer or whether he's just a zealot or, sorry, somebody who just latched on to their ideology. it doesn't matter that i'm as wrong as -- >> even in the last five minutes before he decided to go --
>> exactly. exactly. >> right. stand by with me, art. melissa bell has been covering this breaking news in paris. melissa, what are you picking up at the moment? what are you hearing from police? what's the latest? >> reporter: look, still very sketchy details about this ongoing police operation, but that is what we're hearing that this man was wielding just a hammer. and this really fits into a pattern of what we've seen in paris really over the course of the last few months. in february, you'll remember a man attacked those military personnel guarding the louvre museum armed with a machete. then in march, a man attacked military personnel in oraley. again, something that seemed like a suicide mission, going straight after those military personnel who had been on the streets of paris, of course, deployed in extra great numbers as a result of the state of emergency that france remains under. and of course, there was just before the election in april another man attacked specifically, went out on the champs elysees, could have caused much more harm than, in fact, he did, and chose instead with his kalashnikov to attack a police vehicle. and if this does turn out to be another in that series, again, we're seeing a man armed with
the crudest of devices, simply a hammer this time, and going straight for those policemen and women or military personnel who have been guarding paris' monuments. so, i think this could prove -- and of course, we have to be cautious at this stage because we don't know what this man's motivations were and this is an ongoing police operation. a great deal of panic, we're hearing, around notre dame cathedr cathedral. this is one of those parts of paris that tends to have large crowds around it, lots of tourists milling about, visiting paris' iconic cathedral. so, you can imagine the scene, since we're also hearing that as a result of this hammer attack, police fired back, shooting, although apparently not killing, the assailant. >> yeah, you can imagine the chaos out of necessity that created in that very crowded area. 14 million visitors to the notre dame cathedral every year. you can imagine how many people would have been there today. melissa, if you could stick with me as well, i want to show you some new images just coming in. i'm seeing them with you for the very first time. obviously, it appears we're looking at paris police.
can we drop the banner, guys, so i can see the rest of the photo? i would assume that this would be then surrounding the suspect, surrounding the attacker, but you cannot see much detail in that. we'll continue to get new images as they continues, so stick with us, folks. again, more images coming in as we're getting new detail about a man attacking police outside the notre dame cathedral. art, as i'm looking at these new images coming in, melissa laid out really perfectly, kind of reminding us all that this could -- and it's very early on, but this could fit into a pattern they've seen in france, in paris specifically, of crude weapons and attacking police where they can, when they can. with that in mind, in just the last months, the examples that melissa laid out, has the police posture changed, you believe, because it? >> oh, absolutely! i mean, you know, we learn every
time from one of these attacks how to change our law enforcement tactics. but i have to say that, you know, in the bigger picture, looking at this type of attack, we would much rather have them attack law enforcement than the public. obviously, if he was able to get to the unarmed public, within the cathedral there would have been a lot more injuries. but we've learned from every one of these, but the terrorists also learn also. the attack in london to me, i went immediately back to the pulse nightclub shooting in orlando, where the individual had talked about explosives, which caused the delay in law enforcement responding to these particular scenes. so, each one of these, law enforcement does learn something new, they change their tactics and adapt to the new methods that the terrorists are using. >> mike, the latest we know, of course, is that he attempted to attack police with a hammer. policemen shot back, shot him, wounded him. we don't know how severely injured this person is at this point.
what's the first thing that they're going to do? what's the first thing that when the intelligence folks can get their hands on this person they need? >> first thing you do when you get your hands on anybody in this situation is to find out whether they know of any other attackers or any other imminent attack. you want to know if there's any other threats coming down the pike. and in this case, you know, if it's just the individual -- >> like, how do you establish -- because here's a key question. this is all happening in realtime. >> right. >> police, you can imagine -- we don't have our cameras there yet, but you can imagine there was chaos in the plaza outside notre dame cathedral. when do they know, when will they get to a point, what do they need to have to be reassured that it's okay for folks to go back in? >> as art mentioned, the protocols are you secure the area, obviously. you want to ensure there's nobody else in there, no other perpetrators, no other attackers. once you do that and you clear the scene of evidence, then you know, in a place like notre dame, where you know, it's a hard place to control the crowds, frankly, you -- >> and remember, it's isolated
by the river, you know. >> right, right. >> this is an isolated area as well. >> but this is jammed. >> exactly right. >> so, what they'll do is undoubtedly, once they finish the forensic work they've got to do around the site, then it will get back to business as normal around the cathedral, but the key is, again, once you've determined whether there's any other threats, whether this individual's associated with anybody else, whether he knows of anything that's coming around, you know, there's all the work that goes in behind this. they've got to establish his identity, start looking at known associates. is he somebody who's been on the radar screen as we had with a couple of individuals from the london bridge attack in london. >> that's right. >> and they step through this. the unfortunate reality is that whether we're talking about here in the u.s. or whether we're talking about the uk or france or germany, law enforcement and the intel community, they are very experienced at this by now, and so they know how to do these investigations. they do, it's unsatisfactory, they do take some time. but we can see with every attack, frankly, the process is sped up because, you know, it's just, we're having too much practice, frankly, around all of
this. but they'll get to the bottom of this. they'll understand who this individual is, and i suspect by, you know, two, three hours from now, we'll probably have the identity of the attacker and know a lot more about his motivation. >> we certainly hope so. let's get back to melissa bell in london following these breaking developments. what else are you picking up now, melissa? >> reporter: still just scenes of chaos. and we're getting this image, which is remarkable, this after the attack of what appears to be the security forces having surrounded the man that they shot but did not kill, which, of course, is crucial. and as mike was just saying, will be crucial in the investigation going forward, trying to understand whether he was acting alone, whether he had been inspired by some of the statements that you alluded to a moment ago, where people have been urged to go out with whatever they can grab, whether it's just a truck or a hammer in this case, and take on security forces, or whether this is an individual working in closer coordination with others. sadly, these are, as mike was just saying, the same questions that we keep asking. and we've seen, as we were saying earlier, kate, this sort
of, this new kind of attack. since last july when we saw the dreadful attacks in nice where a lone man had gotten into a truck and plowed into a crowd of people watching the 14th of july attack, sort of garnered the more coordinated, larger-scale attacks we saw in france on november 15th, for instance, when 130 epeople were killed in different locations, highly coordinated attacks from syria. we haven't seen any of those in a while. what we have seen are a much smaller scale over the course of the last few months attacks, but one a month, and specifically attacking security forces and often with the crudest of means, and that appears to be what we're seeing today, those images from outside notre dame. of course, heavily policed. the streets of france really are heavily policed these days. there are so many extra policemen, extra military personnel on the streets. we're still in a state of emergency and we're going to remain in a state of emergency in france until july. that's what's planned for the time being. but we get to that problem that
we've been facing in london as well. talking about london over the course of the last few days, where it is very difficult for security services to track all of the people, even the ones that come across their radars, you know, for any length of time. it takes resources that france or the uk simply don't have. and so, we're seeing with alarming regularity, really, and this has been the case in france over the course of the last few weeks, these smaller-scale attacks specifically targeting military or policemen and women. and in this case, just armed with a hammer. i mean, these are suicidal missions but that allow these individuals to cause the kind of chaos that you're seeing there on the streets outside notre dame, and in a sense, keep the public in a state of anxiety, this sense that we remain under siege and we continue to face this threat, which appears, perhaps, in the course of the last few days, as ramadan has opened, again to be picking up in intensitntensity. >> and the reminder that they are remaining in a state of
emergency until july. that's absolutely right, melissa. thank you for reminding me of that. with these live pictures -- mike, you've been watching these first live pictures that we're getting in outside notre dame. i mean, you tell me what you see. i don't see a sense of urgency, a sense of alarm amongst the security forces here, but tell me what you see. what does this tell us? >> well, they're very professional, so they know what they're doing. they've locked the area down. these folks are providing perimeter security and sort of crowd control. >> yeah. >> so, yeah, there's a sense of calmness there amongst the professionals that know what they're doing. and obviously, the fact that they've got the attacker under control so quickly, that helps obviously calm things down as well. but i think it's worth noting, these small-scale attacks, if that's what you want to call them -- they're still horrific -- but they're capturing the headlines right now. within the intel and law enforcement communities, the concern is what's happening elsewhere, what's happened behind the scenes, because we don't want to get lost in the idea that this is the new model and this is what they're going to do.
there are still efforts to create larger, more sophisticated, more coordinated attacks on a grander scale, not necessarily a 9/11 scale, but something of a larger note. and so, the concern within the community, within law enforcement and intel is what's still going on in that regard. and so, there's a tremendous amount of work that goes on off the radar screen to try to figure that out and to try to, again, minimize, disrupt, prevent. but while our attention right now is focused on these lone wolf or these small-scale attacks, believe me, isis, al qaeda elements and others -- >> they have not given up on their goal. >> -- their goal is a larger, more coordinated attack elsewhere. >> and art, as we've been discussing, and hopefully you're still with us -- >> yes. >> this is what it appears to be, one man, at the moment, one man with a hammer attacking police outside notre dame. but the fact that it was, if i put it this way, just a hammer, does it make it any less concerning in the realm of security officials in what they
need to be looking out for, protecting from, and the constant threat of terror? >> well, i mean, the motivation is going to be the key here. and mike is right. when you look at these type of attacks, the individual's attacking security forces or law enforcement with crude weapons, is not the type of attack that's going to inflict major injuries to the public. this is simply an attack to keep the public aware that they're out there, that they're going to continue to do this, and as mike mentioned, they're planning bigger operations all the time. so, this attack is just to keep law enforcement on high level of alert, also to keep the public stressed out that, hey, this could happen anywhere, anytime and anyplace, and that's exactly the method behind this particular attack, is that listen, this individual with a hammer was not going to do a lot of damage, and of course, attacked law enforcement, who immediately took him down, but it's going to be very
interesting to find out what type of information this particular individual comes across in his interrogations. >> absolutely. mike, you can see with me the image on the left hand of your screen, one of the first images we're getting from inside the cathedral and what we're seeing. i mean, it seems clear, they've put inside and outside on lockdown is what that looks like. >> absolutely. well, you have to control the crowds. you have to know who's friend, who's foe. and so again, it's the reality of the world we live in. people understand now, if you're caught up in an incident like this what do you do? hands up, put your hands on your head. it's amazing that -- >> yeah, the person who sent in the photo said that police asked everyone to put their hands in the air. >> right, but the public's aware of that almost now intuitively, they understand if they're caught in a situation like this. but you asked an important question about the fact that it's a hammer in an incident like this. in reality, it doesn't matter. as unsophisticated as it is, or, in fact, the times square bombs didn't go off, or sort of the
unsophisticated dublin airport attack, whatever it may be, even if it doesn't work, it still advances the ball from the extremists' point of view. and again, we're admitting, we're at the beginning of this investigation. >> right, we are early on and we are waiting to hear -- >> motivation. >> exactly, exactly. we are early on. and just to make sure we're hiting on all the information we have, which admittedly at this point is little. we have from police telling cnn that a man tried to attack police near notre dame, outside of notre dame in paris. police then shot the man, wounding him. unclear the severity of his injuries. that is the very latest that we have at this moment. police clearly still locking down the scene and working through this as we are getting just our very first images coming out from what clearly was a chaotic scene in one of the most popular tourist attractions, one of the most popular spots and landmarks, historic landmarks in the beautiful city of paris. brian stelter, host of "reliable sourc
sources" is here. you've been keeping your eye and ear to the ground and what you're picking up as well. >> and describing this scene inside the cathedral, remarkable that we're seeing what's inside the cathedral. however, we're not seeing reports of other injuries, of any fatalities. it does not appear, so far, that there were other injuries to any civilians on the scene. this one police officer who was apparently injured by this hammer attack. i think it's very notable from a quote president trump, who recently described terrorists as losers, that there may have only been a single injury in this incident. it's worthwhile to point out, on social media, we're not seeing pictures of chaos anymore. it does seem to be a calm scene in paris. >> but they accomplished the task, because again, look at what we're doing, look at the coverage, look what we're talking about. >> they've locked down a major landmark. >> locked down a major landmark. >> yeah. >> and terror causes harm. panic also causes harm. we saw in italy, hundreds injured in a near stampede when there was concern about a bomb scare. >> that's right.
>> hopefully, no injuries here inside or outside the cathedral as a result of the chaos there. >> and if we do -- do we still have melissa bell on with us? no. so, melissa bell's not there? i'm just getting this in. this is from cnn's jim bittermann in paris, that the paris prosecutors office has said they have opened an anti-terror probe into the incident at notre dame. i don't know if that -- should that tell us anything, do you think, michael, or at this point, they're saying they're going open it just because of -- unfortunately, the state of reality we live in at this moment. >> right. it would be speculation on my part. i would suspect, though, they have i.d.'d the attacker, and that's caused him to open up this terror investigation. but i don't think it's not -- it's not standard protocol to just go that direction in the event of any attack. >> great point. art roderick, are you near a tv? can you see the images we're looking at? >> yeah. i do see the images, and i think brian's comment regarding no other reports of attacks is the key part here. you see law enforcement in a
very nonstressed posture. they're talking to people. they're talking to one another. nobody's rushing around. there's no weapons held at the ready. >> yeah. >> so, it appears to me that they're fairly sure that this was a one individual, a lone wolf type attack, and they've taken out the individual. i haven't heard of any other reports of any other injuries or any other attacks in the city itself right now at this point. >> yeah. and let us hope and pray that it stha stays that way at this moment. >> exactly. >> we're continuing to get new details in. everyone stick with me. let's audubon bear, cnn terror analyst, also to the conversation, former cia operative. he's joining me now. bob, one thing we've just picked up from the paris prosecutors office is that they have opened an anti-terror probe into the incident in notre dame. talk to me what that could mean. >> well, they have to look at it as terrorism right now early on, simply because of the three recent attacks in britain. and there seems to be a wave of
jihadi attacks in europe, especially as raqqah is on the verge of falling, i think we're going to see a lot more spontaneous attacks like this, and it doesn't really bother me that the french don't, you know, don't have tanks in the street and their weapons at the ready. there's nothing you can do about these attacks when they're low-tech like this, cars and the rest of it. the best they can do is once they identify this person is see if there's a larger network. but he may have acted on his own. we simply don't know at this point. as i've always said, the french are very good. they're on top of this. they can arrest people. but when you have a community like this, so isolated from french society, it's very difficult to predict who's going to pull the trigger, or pull a knife out. >> let me read you one thing that i'm just being handed. the general secretary of the police union telling bfm, bob, this is the account that he was told -- a man with a backpack
walked towards two policemen and pulled a hammer out of the bag and attacked one of the policemen. that policeman was hurt. the second policeman then pulled his gun and shot the attacker in the chest. this sounds a lot -- this obviously kind of corroborates with some of the detail, giving maybe more detail on how this could have played out. >> the backpack. you know, now you can pick this stuff up in chat rooms. carry a backpack, put a vest on, make the police, you know, fear that it's a suicide bomber. you start seeing patterns in all these attacks as it becomes more difficult to get explosives, then they move to hammers and knives. we're going to have to wait and see. it may have been just your garden-variety psychopath with attacks in europe and the fact that europe is on such high alert for these people and is facing a true problem. and you know, until advised otherwise, it looks like
terrorism to me. >> yeah, your garden-variety psychopath not the most comforting words on a day like today or any day, for sure. let me go right now -- bob, stick with me -- go to jim bittermann in paris for us. jim's been getting a lot of new information in. jim, what are you picking up? i was just reading your reporting on air of your news coming from the prosecutor's office. what are you hearing? >> well, that's exactly it, but in fact, the prosecutor has opened a terrorism investigation which indicates that there is at least suspicion that this is some kind of a terrorist act. now, whether it's a garden-variety psychopath who wanted to join in with the kind of terrorist attacks we've seen around europe or whether this is someone really intent. judging from the weapon, i would say it sounds like someone who was kind of motivated by a sense of hanging on to the kind of things that have already happened in both london and paris and manchester and elsewhere, in the fact that this is such a low-tech attack. the man was almost certain to be
killed, or at least shot at, because the police now are on very high alert. there's been a number of attacks here against police officers, including one fatal one, but there's also been some knife attacks on police officers, one over at the lourve, for example, and now this one at notre dame, which wasn't a knife, but it was a hammer. still, it's the kind of thing that the police are going to respond and it's becoming clear that if you go at the police with any kind of a weapon, be it a hammer or a knife or whatever, you're probably going to end up like this attacker has, and that is flat on the ground and wounded, if not dead. we're not sure what kind of condition he's in. he was shot, according to eyewitnesses, there were two shots fired, and apparently was shot, according to reports, in the thorax, sort of the upper throat or chest area. so, that would leave him in fairly bad shape. they're treating him at the scene now. this all took place about an hour ago, and the attacker is
still at the scene in the plaza area in -- >> he's still at the scene, you're hearing? he's still at the scene, you're hearing, jim? >> yeah. yeah, yeah. he's being treated by medics who are there in front of notre dame. >> and we can probably find -- there has been a picture that we had of security forces, which we believe was around the attacker at one point. we'll probably try to pull that up to show folks once again. i am getting an important update. i want to read it for everyone who's watching. this from paris police, now say the situation at notre dame is under control. one police officer wounded. the attacker -- this now according to police -- the attacker in a hospital. this is just handed to me just offset. very fluid. it is amazing. brian -- >> imagine the frightening scene inside that cathedral. >> yeah. >> we're seeing this picture from matthew. he's an american who lives in los angeles. he shared this on twitter about an hour ago, this image of people holding their hands up.
>> and there's the image on the left side of your screen that we shared. everyone was kind of believing is obviously the suspect on the ground surrounded by security forces. >> yeah, i think he was shot twice, a center mass shot. he took a chest shot. and typically, those don't often end well, so, hopefully he survives. and i don't say that out of the goodness of my heart but out of an operational perspective that we're able to gather some information in terms of the investigation and get a quicker result in terms of his motivations. >> mike, from the intel perspective, as bob was saying and we kind of continue to say it, the difference between if this is the difference between a garden-variety psychopath and someone that has motivations otherwise, motivated by isis, inspired by isis. we could walk down many paths. of course, too early to say. they still are getting all of this under control. what is the difference? what does it matter to folks like you? >> well, in a sense, it's important because you're talking
about operational leads, about avenues of investigation and ways you can gather intel. so, if it's a lone individual who was inspired to do what essentially isis or the jihadists have been asking people to do, which is get whatever is at your disposal and carry out an attack, then, you know, frankly, it doesn't matter. and calling him a garden-variety psychopath, again, from the isis point of view, they're perfectly happy to have that individual come to them. but from the perspective from our side -- >> michael, hold on just a second. we have an eyewitness on the phone, kyle richards. kyle, are you with me? >> caller: yes, i am. >> thank you so much for jumping on the phone. can you tell me where you were and what you saw outside the notre dame this morning? >> caller: yeah, so, we were walking in the notre-dame plaza. my wife and i were trying to get back on our tour bus, then we just heard two gunshots, so we
grabbed each other and ran. then i shot a video from about 30 feet from where i actually was, where we just saw probably five french police officers surrounding a guy on the ground. all we saw was blood on his legs. somebody shot him. i don't know exactly. we didn't see anything from before that. all we've read now is i guess he was attacking someone with a hammer and they shot him. and so, i shot the video and then we started walking. and then the police officers decided to clear the whole entire plaza, and it sounded pretty urgent from the french that we could hear. so they cleared out everybody from the plaza when we saw probably five more police officers come in and they went around a bush that was by a tree and they saw a guy in there, because they all started pointing their guns at someone or something, so my wife and i crossed the street and got kind of another view where they were still pointing their guns at somebody at that point, so we got on our bus quickly because we saw all these police officers come in.
and so, that's where i shot the other video of just all the cop cars coming in and the s.w.a.t. team getting their gear on to go into the plaza. and that's when they started yelling at us to get off the bus, to go up the street kind of away from notre-dame and just clear out the entire area. >> what was that like for you? you hear these gunshots, the urgency of the police. can you just describe what it was like when you guys were running away? you had no idea what was going on. >> caller: yeah, we had no idea what was going on. it was definitely terrifying. i mean, we were just in london two days before when that terrorist attack happened as well. so, we're still a little bit scarred from that. >> wow. >> caller: but it's definitely different when you don't understand the language in the country. i mean, i speak spanish, so i can understand a tiny bit of french. i mean, bits and pieces of it, but when they're yelling fast and yelling at everybody to get out of the way, you just kind of run away just from instinct, i guess. >> and you were just running anywhere. they just wanted you to run
away. >> yeah, they just wanted us to get out of the plaza at that point. >> where are you now? are you still nearby? >> no, we got on -- we were on a tour bus, so we saw another bus that was stopping at that same bus stop, so we got on that one, and it actually dropped us back off kind of where they start the tour, but now we're back at our hotel just trying to stay safe at this point. >> yeah. that's absolutely understandable. well, thank you so much for jumping on. i really appreciate it, kyle. and thank god you and your wife are both safe. >> yeah, no problem. >> i really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> brian, we had the same reaction of just amazing. you can imagine the chaos we've been talking about for everybody in that plaza or inside the cathedral at the time. then also, kyle says he was just in london as that terror attack was happening, he was in london as well. >> and both incidents taking a toll on his trip, obviously, and on all the tourists who might be at notre-dame. this was 4:30 local time, very
busy there at the cathedral. and the witness that we shared the photo from a few minutes ago showing people inside the cathedral with their hands up in the air, this witness, a man from los angeles who happened to be there today, he said the police asked them to all put their hands up in the air. a couple minutes ago, though on twitter, he says police are starting to let those citizens, locals, civilians, tourists, all out of the cathedral, that everyone inside the cathedral is safe, according to this witness, matthew. so, that photo, we saw his hands up in the air, remarkable and scary scene inside the cathedral, because at first they had no idea what was happening outside. they heard gunshots, they heard police activity but weren't allowed to go outside. now it sounds like about an hour later, they are being allowed to leave the cathedral. >> mike, is that pretty standard? if it's happening outside, you don't know exactly what's playing out, contain what's inside at the moment? >> right. i mean, you've got to control the crowd, basically. and you've got to secure the crowd. and you know, you do what is field expedient. in this case, it was lock the place down, keep them inside
while you deal with the threat on the outside, determine how much of a threat you've got. >> i'm going to go right now to alex marquardt. he's been covering the attack there in london, covering the latest developments there. alex, obviously, it's unsettling news, no matter where it's happening at any point in the world, but what you've been looking at over the past couple days, of course, is a massive increase in stepped-up security there. what are you looking at? >> reporter: well, that's right. i mean, this is the kind of attack that really most countries in europe can relate to. what you're seeing here is a heavy police presence because we are near the site of that attack on saturday night. but you're right in general, there has been a massively stepped-up police presence, increased patrols here in london in the wake of the attack, but more than that, there's this bigger debate going on about how secure, how much of a presence the police should have in the streets. in the past, before this recent wave of attacks -- and there have been three major terror attacks in the past nine weeks -- the police had stepped up their presence and how much they are armed relative to that
threat. keep in mind, most police officers in this country are not armed. the number of armed police officers has gone up. there has been -- they have put more of these fast response units who are heavily armed in the streets of london. but because this is a relatively new phenomenon here in england in the past two years, england has not seen the same wave of terror that the rest of europe has, they are going through this debate right now. they are talking about whether there should be shoot-to-kill policies, how much -- how well armed the police should be. other european countries like france and belgium have already gone through this debate. you can see the military on the streets of paris and brussels. so, now all of these european countries are grappling with this debate of how much of a police state they want to live in. kate? >> and that is an excellent point. alex, stick with me. alex is in london covering that, the fallout and the investigation from that terror attack there.
bob baer is still with me on the phone. bob, as we're talking to the eyewitness who said they were just told to run and run and get out of the way, what changes in paris today and tonight? >> well, what changes is, you know -- first of all, let's address americans. they are targets in places like paris and london as much as the locals are. and any tourist areas are going to be, whether it's a concert or notre-dame, are going to be possible attack sites, and the cia, they always tell us, when things go bad, stay out of the crowded areas. stay off of the metro. stay away from where people conglomerate. and if we are seeing a wave of attacks, if i were an american tourist in europe, i would follow those rules. and i think it has changed. i, by the way, on the arms, the british have to start carrying them. if these guys are going to be wandering around with knives and you are unarmed, you are at a great disadvantage and more
people are going to die. and this goes completely against british culture. it's unfortunate, but i don't see a way around it. >> and bob, the fact that when we're talking about what's playing out, or played out today in paris outside notre dame, the fact that this attacker targeted a police officer, targeted two police officers, and not one of the however many tourists were there in that plaza, does that indicate anything to you? >> all of these people are self-recruited. let's assume this is a terrorist attack in paris. they're self-recruited on the internet. this is a pattern. and then they go to guidance, a human being which they talk to, usually a cleric who blesses, maybe not the detail, but blesses the attack. now, right now, there is a wave of in france attacks on policemen. one was killed fatally. but this could change overnight and someone could put it out, say well, maybe it's more
effective to attack tourists, american tourists, or whatever, israeli tourists, british, and that could change almost imperceptibly. we won't know until it happened. >> and of course, bob -- and i know you've acknowledged it as well -- we don't know this person's motivation, we don't know what's behind the attack, what the goal was, what the motivation is. if this has nothing to do with any motivation from terror, what does that say? >> you know, i think the french are on high alert and they're taking any attack on the police or tourists or anybody else from the get-go is a terrorist attack and that's the way we should, too, simply because there's been so many of them. last year, let's don't forget nice. we all have amnesia. and then berlin christmas attacks and this whole trend toward low-tech weapons. i just think we have to assume there's going to be a lot more of it. you know, it's very sad, but this is the way things are going
until this virus burns itself out. and as we just were talking about, with raqqah falling, i think it's going to put us in a period of great danger for the next couple months. >> everyone stand by, if you could. we're continuing to follow developments coming out of paris, an attack this morning. a man, according to paris police, a man attacked a policeman outside of the notre-dame cathedral. police shot back. the man is wounded. we do not know the severity of his wounds right now, other than indications are he was shot straight in the chest and they have the situation under control and a terror probe has been opened, that according to the paris prosecutor. continuing to follow developments. if details come in. we'll get in a quick break and be right back with continuing coverage of this breaking news. wiback like it could used to?
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we're continuing to follow breaking news out of paris. we've been following this developing situation outside of the notre-dame cathedral in paris all hour now. we do know that the situation there, one police officer was wounded after an attacker apparently attacked the police with a hammer, a hammer he pulled from a backpack, according to one source with the situation. the attacker was shot by police
in return. he is at the hospital. that's according to paris police. and paris police do now say that the situation is under control, but the paris prosecutor has now opened an anti-terror probe into this situation. a lot of details not known and still coming in outside of what is happening outside of the notre-dame cathedral, what happened earlier today there. we'll continue to bring you developments. we are expecting to get some new video to be coming in shortly and we'll bring that to you as soon as we get it in. let's turn to other news we are watching. the person responsible for leaking a classified nsa memo is facing charges. the top-secret contractor, reality winner, is top-secret clearance sand accused of removing classified material from a government facility and mailing it to a news outlet. in layman's terms, illegal. sources say the document detailed a 2016 cyber attack that was carried out by russian military intelligence and targeted a u.s. voting software supplier. an important note here, though, there has been no evidence,
according to all involved, there is no evidence that any votes were, though, affected by that hack and that attempt. here with me, still with me, so kindly have been with me throughout the hour, mike baker, a former cia operative and co-founder of diligence, a global international and security firm. brian stelter, of course, cnn media correspondent and host of "reliable sources." so, brian, first to you. what do we know about this government contractor? what do we know about reality winner and exactly what she did? >> first, that is her real name. there were lots of punch lines about that, but reality winner is her name, a 20-something. she had been working this job in georgia, apparently e-mailing at one point with "the intercept," an online news site that specializes in trying to get secret documents from the government and publishing them. at one point she e-mailed "the intercept," one of the ways the government honed in on her. more importantly, according to the government, she printed out this top-secret nsa report, mailed it to a reporter at "the intercept," and by the time it was published online yesterday,
she was found and arrested. according to prosecutors, she did admit to going ahead and leaking this information. we will hear more from her in court maybe later this week. >> yeah, absolutely. so, she is charged with breaking the law. >> right. >> from as clear cut as it appears to be and the fact that she's acknowledged this, seems to have admitted some fault here -- >> right. >> is it safe to say, mike, that this is not a unique prosecution that would be sought by a trump presidency, that this would be sought by any president, obama, keep going back? >> no, president obama and his administration were very aggressive -- >> they were. >> -- in prosecuting leakers. no one can look at this and say this is purely an exercise by the trump administration. but i understand, people will always -- there will always be an element of folks that will look at this individual or at snowden or someone in this similar situation and go, oh, it's a hero! they're just working for the good of the country. and you know, i understand that, but i'm speaking from my own experience, which is that you
signed agreements, you sign a commitment. if you take a job, voluntarily take a job because you want that job, to handle, the responsibility of handling classified national security information. you will not disclose that information. that is your agreement for taking that job. we seem to have gotten to a point where some people just decide, well, it's okay, i'll sign the agreement, but maybe i'll change my mind. maybe i know better or maybe i didn't get enough hugs at the office or maybe i like my 15 minutes, whatever the motivation is -- >> i haven't heard that side of it. >> but have her bosses violated their compact with the public by not telling us about this report? this report was from may 5th. now it's early june. it's been a month. we haven't learned about what was in this report until she leaked it. >> in terms of reports, it does seem almost quick that maybe the public would hear about that. >> right. >> can i ask you about the substance of this leak, though? because russia using a misinformation campaign to try to influence people in the election, that's one thing, right? that's one thing that obviously the intelligence agencies say
russia was very actively trying to do, but does this start to get at what people most feared could have happened in the election, which was that -- is this getting to evidence that russia was actually trying to change votes? >> well, yes. there's no doubt about it. it speaks sort of to that overwhelming concern, did they actually somehow tamper with the machines and change votes? >> no one says that they did, but -- [ everyone talking at once ] >> no one said they were able to pull it off. >> nobody working in cybersecurity, nobody working in counterintelligence or in the intelligence business is surprised at the extent to which russia or china or other countries out there would be trying to do everything possible. so, the fact that they were meddling takes it into a wide playing field. >> okay. >> so, the fact that they're trying to go after software, that is part of what you would assume they were trying to do. to your point, i understand what you're saying in terms of, well, they should have released this report. well, i'm sorry, but if they've got an investigation going on, or for intelligence purposes, the same reason you don't
release sources and methods, then they've got to be able to conduct their -- i know -- the public would like to know everything, but there's a reason why you do keep some secrets sometimes when you're conducting an investigation or you're involved in a counterintelligence operation or a terrorism operation. there's a reason for secrets. and you know, i'm here to tell you, i'm speaking from my experience. other people sgreerks i'm sure, and i respect that, but i'm saying, if we had 100% transparency on everything, this wowed would be even far more chaotic than it is right now, and i know right now there's a lot of people out there banging their heads against the tvs, saying i can't believe he said that. >> i don't even want to know all the secrets that you have in your head, mike baker. i'm not even going to ask. we're not going to start there today. brian -- i'd be interested in the secrets in your head, though. thank you to you both. coming up next for us, president trump's most effective opponent is the president himself. pretty scathing, new editorial coming from what's normally friendly territory, the "wall street journal" editorial pages, as the president pops off again
on twitter. plus, more on our breaking news we've been following throughout the hour. a police operation has been under way near the notre-dame cathedral in paris after a man attacked a police officer. stand by for more details coming in. al? why does your tummy go "grumbily, grumbily, grumbily"? no more questions for you! ouph, that milk in your cereal was messing with you, wasn't it? try lactaid, it's real milk without that annoying lactose. good, right? -mmm, yeah. lactaid. the milk that doesn't mess with you. you need one of these.
honest and unfiltered message out. here's the thing. the quote/unquote media isn't trying to tell him what to do at a all. it's his own staff, his advisers, his supporters who's trying to get him to stop. these head spinning tweet storms come during a huge week that cannot be overstated. this afternoon and this evening he is going to be meeting with members of congress to try to discuss how to push forward his agenda. remember this was supposed to be infrastructure week. tomorrow the senate intelligence committee will be holding a hearing on the ford intelligence surveillance act, an important element of it. they're going to be hearing from the director of national intelligence, dan coats, acting fbi director andrew mccabe, mike rogers and rod rosenstein. and that of course brings us to thursday, the hearing of all hearings with james comey testifying in front of the senate intelligence committee. so what's at stake? and what is he tweeting about? with me is cnn republican strategist, alice stewart,
crystal balls and garric, author of a biography, the fbi at war in the age of global terror. all right. a lot to get to at this moment. the president today on twitter, this is today on twitter, yesterday on twitter, the day before on twitter. now going all the way back to the election once again saying that he had relied on the networks or major papers, he would have zero chance of winning the white house. you specialize in communications. can you decipher these communications? honestly, what is going on here? >> one thing that's important to remember, he's the president of the united states. the same goes when he was a candidate for president of the united states. when he makes a statement and he's making a statement now, it is a presidential statement, whether it comes from the oval office, the rose garden or from his twitter feed. he needs to keep in mind that his statements and his words and his tweets have consequences and they do matter. it would be helpful if he would
keep those in line with the message that they're driving from the white house. they've had a good week with regard to infrastructure and pushing that message. >> the message to whom? i feel like the caterpillar in "alice in wonderland." who's out of line? the white house needs to get in line with the president, but can they. >> generally the way it works in the past is the communications director and the com shop gets together, here's our message. they get together with the senior advisers, this is what we're pushing today. you talk to the candidate or elected official and say we're driving this today. generally everyone is on the same page. however, donald trump tends to live in an alternative -- >> he's a little different. >> yes. >> if you look at what he's tweeting about, and we'll call them official presidential statements coming from the hands of the president, he seems to be clearly at the very least angry and lashing out. he seems upset in what he's tweeting about. i mean, as "the wall street
journal" put it today in a scathing opinion piece, when it comes to donald trump, the puck stops everywhere else. let me read kind of the operative for everyone. in 140 increments mr. di mined his own standing, demonstrated that the loyalty he demands isn't reciprocal, wasted time he could have devoted to health care fax reform. mark it down as other evidence that the most effective opponent of the trump presidency is donald j. trump. so needless to say, he lost "the wall street journal" editorial board. he did a while ago if we're being honest about it. does this hurt him at all with his supporters that put him in the white house though? i venture to guess no. >> i think there is a base of support that he's right about. he can do basically anything and they would be with him and the more that he complains about the media and the more aggressive he is on twitter, the more they
love him. but that's not all of america. there were a lot of people who voted for donald trump who weren't so sure about donald trump, who said that he may not be fit for the presidency, but we're so disgusted with hillary clinton or so disgusted with democrats that they decided to pull the lever for him instead. so there is a persuadable group of people. the other thing i would say is when you pull on his tweets and whether he should dial that back, overwhelming majority of americans, including a lot of his own supporters, have a problem with this undisciplined approach on twitter because it is so unhinged and so counter productive. she has been governing and he decided to run for president and he's been governing from this place of grievance. it is always someone coming at him. it is always someone else's fault. it's the media. it's the judges. it's the democrats, et cetera. it never kbcomes down to him ev when it is his own administration, quote/unquote the travel ban and his signature
on the executive order. >> one that may be coming at him this week may be james comey, the former fbi director. the big testimony that will be occurring on thursday. asked about the testimony and what to expect, the chairman of the senate intelligence committee richard burr said that basically that comey talked to robert mueller, a man you have written extensively about and mueller has not fenced him off. not fenced him off. what does that tell you? well, it tells me that there's going to be as everyone knows at this point all eyes on jim comey on thursday morning. this is probably the biggest hearing that we have seen on capitol hill in decades. and it's going to be a fascinating window into some of trump's behavior behind the scenes. i mean, we don't have a lot of details about this interaction and the series of interactions that jim comey has had with the president since the election other than a couple of news
reports here and there. this is going to be the first time that jim comey has been able to speak expansively in his own words with his own documents as backup. >> yeah. guy, great to have you. thank you so much. a lot to look forward on. we'll also continue to cover the breaking news out of paris france where there was an attack on a police officer this morning. police there at notre-dame have the situation under control, but more details are coming in. thank you for joining us. "inside politics" with john king starts right now. welcome to "inside politics." i'm john king. busy day in washington but we'll get to that in a moment because we're following breaking news in paris where police shot a man who tried to attack officers with a hammer at the notre-dame cathedral. the situation is now under control. one police officer and the attacker both wounded. hundreds of people were inside the cathedral at the time. officers made them raise their hands above their heads as a