tv CNN Tonight With Don Lemon CNN June 15, 2017 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
and that's it for us. thanks for watching. time to hand things over to don lemon. thank you very much. it was quite a night in washington. we will continue our coverage now. i want to keep you around because you have been watching at the ballpark. what stood out to you tonight? >> you know, i think just to see the huge turnout. this is a game that i'm told usually attracts maybe 10,000 people. there were some 25,000 people said to be here. i think a lot of people who hadn't been to this game before but wanted to show up not only as a sign of support but also as a sign of sending this message they are not afraid and not going to be coward and they wanted to take part in it. i think there was a different atmosphere from what i understand from past years of what this game is like. >> i want to talk to you about i
think there are two heroes that we haven't spoken enough about. there are a lot of heroes, the two officers who really stopped this from becoming a massacre out there on the field. he threw out the first ball. tell us about that. >> that was incredible. to see him out there obviously with the crowd just went wild and you know it was just an incredible moment. to think -- while i was watching them do that i was just thinking where he was more than some 36 hours ago and from that tragedy to be on that mound was extraordinary. i'm not sure if he was happy with bouncing the ball. so the first responders were heroes in this. that security detail.
it's horrible to talk about but had they not been there, had those three officers not been there, you had a lot of members of congress. you have a 10-year-old son of one member of congress. you have aides all in the dugout, they were sitting ducks. and it was just a lot of hero. . every member of congress i talked to was there that is the first thing they say that thin blue line particularly thin that morning but strong enough to do what it had to do. >> the president didn't attend tonight because of security reasons but did send a video message. how was that received by the crowd? >> i checked in with phil mattingly in the crowd. it was hard to tell the response. at the beginning message. by the end when the president
said play ball it was -- there was overwhelming cheers from all sections of it and even when some democrats were introduced there was some scattered booing. phil points out that in previous years there was a lot of that this is a playful competitive game in past years. there was much less of that sort of booing. there was a really strong show of unity here. i think everybody in the crowd felt that. >> it wouldn't be a baseball game if there wasn't booing. you don't cheer for the other team. i think that was probably part of what should happen. so you mentioned the president. we mentioned the president just now. there is a darkening cloud at the white house tonight. as you have been reporting and we have been reporting here, the "washington post" is saying special counsel is looking into jared kushner's business dealings. what have you been reporting on
that? >> we talked to one of the reporters who broke that story to the washington post. you can look at it as a national progression of any special counsel. this is a counselor intelligence investigation as well as a criminal investigation. there are a lot of moving parts to it. certainly they are going to be looking at the financial dealings of jared kushner. there is the kushner family has a building 666 fifth avenue. it is known he had met with not just the russian ambassador in trump tower during the transition but met with a russian bank er who has a background in intelligence training and whose bank is on the list of sanctions. so there is a lot of questions about why he met with them and conflicting accounts that were given early on about why that meeting took place.
i think there are a lot of questions that is not perhaps too surprising to know that the special counsel was looking at it. it brings this closer into the white house and into the inner circle of donald trump and the family circle of donald trump. >> thank you. great reporting. we will let you go now. we have more business to attend to at the ballpark. i want to bring in live congressman brooks of alabama, republican from alabama. did you do any booing tonight? i understand your team lost. there really are no losers tonight. i will congratulate you especially after this new air of bipartisanship. >> thank you. i'm disappointed. the republicans and the democrats as you can imagine are quite competitive not only in politics but also the baseball field. today we took a licking. their pitcher was spot on. we were a little bit flat. >> so tell us what happened to
the winning trophy. >> well, the winning trophy goes to the democrats. thank you for reminding me of that. on a happier note we did have about 25,000 tickets that were sold, crowd of similar size. that beats all past records for this charitable baseball game that the united states congress puts on. that was very heart warming for us to see david bailey, i don't know if you were watching the beginning of the game but when players and lineups were introduced we stretched from first base and third base and alternated republican and democrat. i saw david bailey over in foul territory near the third base dugout and the emotions compelled me to go over there. i talked to him. i thanked him and gave him a hug. i don't normally do that but
under those circumstances it was wonderful to see him and to be in a position to let him know how much i appreciated what he did. i don't know if you know, don, but yesterday i was in the dugout and i started hearing gun fire above and behind me. i was immediately concerned that we might have a second shooter to worry about. at the same time i was doing that trying to figure out what the proper response would be. when i looked up it was one of our guys, a good guy. that gave us a renewed hope that we would come out of the situation and then for david bailey to do what he did to put his life at risk in order to minimize the loss of life that would have been for a number of united states congressmen, staffers and a 10-year-old boy. i wanted him to know we were as appreciative as we could possibly be and that we love him. we hope he gets better. in our eyes he showed tremendous
courage and is a hero. >> he is out of the hospital, obviously, throwing the first pitch. crystal griner is still in the hospital. speaking as you are now do you think that tonight's moment of unity between democrats and republicans will continue? what do you say to those who are engaging in partisan finger pointing about the shooting? >> well, i hope what will happen is that the general public will understand that in a way we lead dual lives. when we are in the political arena if anyone has played sports when you are in a sports arena you are a fierce competitor. if you play a basketball game a buddy of yours might get picked for the other team. when you are on the basketball court you might jostle a few ribs with your elbows and compete as best you can to win. once you get off the senate floor, off that basketball court you can still interact with each
other in a social environment and call the person who you compete against on that basketball court or house floor a friend. i hope tonight was the message to the american people that it is fine to have political discourse and to have it in an election setting is fine and in a campaign setting is fine. but outside of that particular arena we are friends. these are our fellow americans and we are all in this together. america is either going to sink or rise together. it's important to keep in mind to have 25,000 people show up tonight that was the message from this ballpark to the american people. >> congressman mo brooks of the great state of alabama of which i used to be a resident in birmingham. >> roll tide. >> i'm an lsu tiger. we won't go that far. go tigers. >> thank you sir. i appreciate it.
i need to get to sanjay. the same thing sort of happens because we have this political talk on television. and as you can probably remember last week i tweeted out a picture of all of us in the green room and all talking and everyone is like you get along and there were harsh words said. they don't realize that sometimes we go out for a beer after this. republican, democrat or whatever we all get along. we may disagree on television, but nobody hates each other on these panels. >> you can disagree without being -- >> the phrase disagree without being disagreeable used to be a thing that we taught our kids and talked about. the congressman makes the right point. it's fine to disagree. we have two parties for a reason. brian and amanda don't see things the same way. that doesn't mean one is a
terrible person and one is a good person. >> i tell you who i always agree with and that is dr. sanjay gupta. he is going to tell us about encouraging news about congressman steve scalise. he is our chief medical correspondent. update us on the condition at this hour. >> there is good news about the congressman. they say he has improved over the last 24 hours. he is still in critical condition. i think we talked about this last night. people think a gun shot wound to the hip maybe not be as concerning. it can be a very serious injury. that is why you are hearing that he has had a couple of operations and other procedures. there are blood vessels in this area. when you have a rifle wound, a bullet wound from a rifle, that is a high velocity injury. that means not only do you follow the trajectory of the bullet but also creates a blast injury or cavitation injury as
it is called. that is what the doctors have been focussing on trying to understand the extent of the injuries stopping that bleeding. this is not unexpected that he would have more than one operation because sometimes you just stop operating to allow the patient to recover from the operation, give some blood products back and clotting factors to allow the blood to clot back all of these sorts of things. that is what is going on. the encouraging news they say he has improved over the last 24 hours, probably less blood need and less medications. >> he may have other procedures that does not necessarily mean surgery. >> there may not be things he requires general anesthesia for. >> witnesses said they saw the congressman dragging himself roughly 15 yards shortly after the shooting. could that have effected his
injuries? >> the magnitude of the injury was from the bullet injury. everything else sort of pales in comparison to that. what is interesting is that he was able to do that. he was able to according to his office statement that he was stable, that he was in good spirits and able to speak to his wife on a cell phone for a period of time. but just to give you an idea of how quickly things can turn with these injuries and this is what trauma surgeons think about. from the time at the field about a five to ten minute transport by helicopter to the hospital so they say he was in good spirits and talking to his wife at the field. five to ten minutes later he is in critical condition. that is because of the bleeding. so that deterioration happened during that time. so whether it was the dragging himself out to the middle of the field clearly there was a lot of bleeding and his body was able
to keep up. he needed to go to the operating room. >> thank you for updating. this is about jared kushner from our senior white house correspondent. jeff joins us now. "washington post" reporting that special counsel is investigating jared kushner's business dealings. what is the response from jared kushner tonight? >> the lawyer for jared kushner is responding in this way. she says this. we do not know what this report refers to. it would be standard practice for the special counsel to examine financial records to look for anything related to russia. mr. kushner previously volunteered to share with congress what he knows about the russia related matters. he will do the same if he is contacted with connection with any other inquiry. what this is all about is the people who are close to jared
kushner who have spoken to him say this is something that is standard and routine. we knew several weeks and months ago that members of congress were interested in this. this is just simply the special counsel saying this is part of their investigation. this drives it even closer to the oval office to the president. jared kushner, of course, the closest of close advisers here. he says he has done nothing wrong here and more than willing to share any information with the congressional committees as well as the special counsel. >> thank you very much. also, we are going to continue to talk about this vice president lawyering up, as well. i want to get back to the ballpark. we will find some congressmen there. thank you both for joining us. representative was at practice yesterday when a gunman opened fire. how do you feel?
>> pretty exhausted right now. most of the guys on our team had really lived a traumatizing experience yesterday. you know, we are happy to be here. we are winners because we are here. things could have been a whole lot worse. somebody out there yesterday got very little sleep last night. we are just blessed we had the capitol police there. several shots were hitting the ground all around me throughout the entire fire fight. they drew fire away from us so we can try to help some of the wounded. they were the true heroes. >> congressman woods, how do you feel? >> i think it has been a surreal atmosphere. tonight was a great opportunity for everybody to come together democrats and republicans hugging and people were crying. this tragedy brings people together.
you have seen congress come together in the last day and a half. tonight we have had a record turnout 25,000 people. democrats won unfortunately, but more than anything it was an opportunity to just get together, play a game of baseball and try to heal our congress, heal the country. going forward this is an opportunity to really redouble our efforts at civility and working with people across the aisle and solving problems and changing the tone in this country trying to get people to work together more and listen to one another. things have gotten so caustic that it boiled over yesterday and i think congress is coming together and i hope the country does, as well. >> i think you guys need a well-deserved rest. you are on fumes or adrenaline as they say. we see you all over television. i'm sure you haven't gotten a good night's rest last night. we appreciate you joining us and we hope this spirit of
bipartisanship will last in washington and around the country. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> i want to bring in now cnn politics reporter and editor at large political analyst and political commentator ryan lizza and brian fallin, amanda carpenter and mike shields. so i'm going to go to you just because he is -- >> remember that time you called me by chris's name? >> he wasn't even with the network. i would like to talk about you saw the gentlemen at the ballpark there all three congressman saying it is time for it to stop. how realistic is that? >> i don't want to be pessimistic. ooik it is great that people are reflecting on what happened and talking about that and maybe looking for opportunities that didn't seem so obvious before
what happened yesterday. but you know there are pretty deep differences between tpartis for a reason. i think it will take a lot of soul searching and real effort by both sides to figure out if there are issues that just here to for haven't been obvious that can be worked on together. just think of the main issue that democrats want to talk about in the wake of a tragedy like this, gun violence and what to do about that. you don't see any movement on either side on that issue. we have had, you know, shooting after shooting that just has not affected that issue. that is the most obvious thing that has been stuck no matter how many times there is a tragic shooting like this. i don't see anything changing there unfortunately. maybe there are other issues. it is good that people are talking about that maybe reflecting a little bit more. >> amanda, i think it is interesting that you have these
guys at the ballpark saying everybody needs to tone it down. you have a president of the united states tweeting today and really using his twitter feed in the same way he did on just as vocal as before the shooting. how do you reconcile the two? >> it's strange. we can see donald trump is like the good angel on one shoulder. good angel release that lovely video statement. bad angel tweeting these conspiracy theories about the deep state. look at everything going on with the russia investigation. he has spun a conspiracy theory about deep state to deflect questions about russia. he is discrediting the american constituti institution and law enforcement and people who keep us safe. that is what i am worried about big picture. i don't know how he gets out of this. he needs to take a step back and realize what he is doing when he is thinking he is protecting himself he is damaging an
important american institution. >> i know you want to respond to this. >> the first thing i would say is the leaks are real. you are saying it is conspiracy theory about the deep state. there is clearly a coordinating pattern. there are people. my dad is an nsa contractor. i have deep admiration for security apparatus and staff. there are people taking it upon themselves saying i don't like the policies of this president so i will leak something which in other countries turns into military. that is the same argument that you have a choice. if you don't agree with what the government is doing you resign from office. that is what jim comey should have done. we have people who decided i will do something illegal and leak it. >> here is what we will find. we will find out whether the leakers are leaking because they saw something and they wanted to speak out against it or they wanted to smear the president. we will find it out. we will kboi if there are
leakers who want to smear the president there is a big difference. >> let me ask you a question before you respond. my question was about tone. can't the president say i don't like these leaks but i think everything should be investigated with the russia situation because we need to figure out what is going on? isn't it about tone rather? >> what i find in washington is that a lot of people have been hung up on the president's tone since he started to run for office. he is not going to change his tone no matter how much we talk about. >> that is the whole point of what every single lawmaker we have had on in the wake of this shooting has said. the change comes from the top. if the president doesn't do it, if he doesn't set the example. >> you are trying to connect tone to stuff we have seen going on. >> we are talking about the tone he has about fighting back against an investigation and
talking about members of congress who were literally shot yesterday. >> no one is saying he is responsible for that. what i'm saying is that everyone who has come on and the congressmen involved in the shooting were people who raise it in saying we need to watch the tone. if the president isn't doing it why should anyone else in. >> look, the president right now is being attacked as an oug autocrat, he is responding to those attacks. i think that rhetoric is what is ratcheted up and what people are saying that needs to be brought down. i was talking to a reporter tonight who was unaware of how many death threats members of congress get. we have seen town halls. we have cameras because it is such great theater. what is coming on is some people were taking it too far and rhetoric was getting high skpr threatening members of congress
to the point where they are worried about their families. >> in the political system has become high stakes everything. there are panels, global warming is going to imperil the world. staffers get it all the time, too. >> i need to get to a break. we waited a bit long. everyone stick with me. much more on the report that the special counsel is investigating jared kushner's business dealings. this is a story about mail and packages. and it's also a story about people and while we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service. priority: you
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welcome back to cnn tonight. my panel is back with me. brian fallin anxious to get in this conversation about tone and we were talking about the president's tone. >> i think the president should tone down the tweeting for his own legal reasons. in general i think coming out of the moment with gestures of bipartisanship today that we should set realistic goals for ourselves. if we act like they will forget political differences we are setting ourselves up for disappointment. we have a health care debate that is about to resume. democrats are really upset about the process run by the senate republicans. i'm sure they are going to approach that debate just as fiercely. that is not a bad thing. the town halls will happen again during fourth of july recess. that is not a bad thing either. a reasonable goal we can set is
to say let's stop with the outright condoning of violence. let's stop with the outright glorification of violence. that means on the left when you have imagery with kathy griffin. it means the rhetoric from the president during the campaign offering to pay people's legal bills if they punched somebody in the face needs to be dolled out. that is a realistic bar we can meet. if democrats and republicans debate on the floor of the house that is a setback. >> if we can't meet that bar we are doomed. >> this is from the white house correspondent for the "new york times" rr tweeting any debate about civility and politics begins with trump. no one has degraded discourse more while embracing the finge. fact, not opinion. >> there was a lot of reporting thinking that melania might tone
down his tweeting. i think we can put that to rest. i think it is great that we are talking about rhetoric and talking about the tone. at the end of the day ratings you can't blame society every time an individual does something wrong. this is one crazy person. this is a crazy man. someone might say he is angry. he has a history of punching a woman, punchi woman. you can't blame society for that. this is the way it has been. i wouldn't say that. >> a history of -- >> he has a violent past. >> well, he denied it but had a history of violence. >> we are talking about the shooter here.
>> the shooter he has a past. >> i want to get direct response to this. to you agree with what glen thrush tweeted out. do you think he is right? i think donald trump has degraded the -- look, i mean frankly this is going from 0.5 to 0.2. it was not as though everyone got along. has he given a broader umbrella acceptance. i can say this. there are only 140 characters. i would say this. i also think donald trump has radicalized both the right and the left. i do think the liberal left is more willing to believe anything that is said about donald trump, any story from any place.
and run with it. you didn't see with barack obama. you didn't see with george w. bush. that is different. yes, i do think he has his willingness to not understand that a statement at the congressional baseball game which is quite good thoughtful and a tweet, they are both communications from the president. one isn't a ten and one is a one. they both matter. there is zero question on my mind i see on people on twitter and people who interact with me. the left is ready to believe if i said i saw donald trump had a tail and horns people would be like i knew it. >> i call it trump derangement syndrome. people say is he gone yet? >> how much is this donald trump and how much has the internet changed the political system and
donald trump is the twitter pr kate w candidate who conquered it. it would be hard for me to see the terrible things said about me. now there is a place where everybody sees it. everybody has this meeting ground now that is largely social media. look at the fake news stories on facebook and twitter. i think that has changed our political system much more than donald trump has. donald trump is the vehicle for it, that understands it. >> i do think that you are right in a sense. i think that we need, people need to be trained in how to absorb and take in media. you need to be media savvy. people sit around and they watch the same news program. they read the same blogs where everyone agrees with them. if you are watching a network that is to the left you are going to believe that donald trump is going to be impeached at any moment. if you are watching on the right
you think donald trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread. the truth is somewhere in the middle. >> somehow or another we are making the tone donald trump's fault. once again he is responsible. did donald trump cause -- he set the tone. did donald trump cause democrats to say republicans are going to get rid of obamacare it will kill people? donald trump didn't cause democrats to say that. people need to be responsible for their own actions instead of us saying he set the tone so pretty much anything goes. >> that's what glen thrush is getting at. >> let me say this. i'm not going to spend a whole segment defending glen. to me what glen is getting at is donald trump has mainstreamed some of the language in the ways in which we talk about one
another. lying ted, little marco, low energy jeb . that does not excuse things that democrats say or things that if i said something. if i said something offensive i can't say donald trump's fault. >> there is so much that donald trump has added to the coarseness of the debate. lying ted, crooked hillary. i can deal with that. i agree that it doesn't condone swearing. i think democrats are feeling compelled to match it to show that they are willing to stand up to him and be just as tough. what i think we should all agree on is that when donald trump says you know what the problem in today's society is is that we don't solve enough things in physical confrontation. >> you are engaging in a little bit of both sides do it that is out of whack with reality. donald trump accused ted cruz's
father of having something to do with the kennedy assassination and accused clintons of being murderers. a democrat going out and dropping an f bomb one time is not the same thing. and by the way, when you're president of the united states it is far more important to set a proper tone than some random -- >> he said something -- >> what has he said since he was president of the united states -- >> the residue of that, his twitter account has a picture of ted cruz's wife being compared to melania trump. he hasn't apologized. just last week there was a story about groups on the alt right that are militant groups that don paramilitary costume. these are groups that have
sprung up based on donald trump's cultivating of this nationalism and condoning of violence and they are out there staging rallies where they are looking to beat up liberal demonstrators. >> that is not for a second to say anything that donald trump has said has anything to do with it. >> now believes we are blaming donald trump. if we get rid of obamacare people will die. republicans and donald trump are trying to kill you you can understand how that rhetoric can get so heated that some crazy people can take it to a bad place. >> tara i thought made a really great point. we all can get heated in a setting like this. you can get heated in a bar talking to someone about politics. we all do this because we live this politics. none of us think you know what i should do next? i should go with a rifle and wait and shoot these people. that is the thing.
they are in the same general vicinity the rhetoric but none of us are going to do that thing. >> if the congressmen involved in the shooting yesterday did not think it was important to talk about this and didn't contribute in some way to this person's violence then they would not have said it. >> it's a great thing to talk about. this is something we should be talking about but i don't think it is the reason he got a gun and drove from illinois. >> the whole reason we are having this conversation is because of what those men have said on the air on every network that they appeared on. >> which is the right tone. >> that is why i raised the question. we will talk more about russia, the russian investigation and how the president and his son-in-law are involved. two experts who have been a part of major washington investigations will join me next. the jury in the bill cosby trial dead locked. we have another hour coming and will bring you the latest on his case.
president trump being investigated by special counsel. when asked for a response president trump was silent. >> mr. president, do you believe that you are under investigation now? mr. president, do you now believe -- do you want to respond on camera to the "washington post" report? >> i am back now with my panel and joined by former white water independent counsel and special prosecutor and robert mueller's former special assistant to the justice department. i want to talk to you gentlemen first. michael, welcome. the "washington post" reports that robert mueller is now investigating jared kushner's finances and business dealings as part of the russia investigation. what do you make of it? >> i guess the question is whether or not there is a belief that any of the kushner meetings, the alleged meetings
with russian officials was as a result of his need for financing for any of his buildings. there have been stories in the paper about 666 5th avenue being in financial difficulty and whether or not there is money needed for that. i think it is logical from follow the money standpoint that you would look at these things to see whether they reach into russia and that might provide a motive for allegations with respect to collusion or some other interference allegation. >> i wonder if this is a sign about the vulnerability about the people around the president. as the russia investigation expands we learned that vice president pence hired outside counsel to represent him in the russia probe. that is pretty significant. given your experience with white water do you think people in the trump administration are vulnerable? >> the famous story was involving betty curry, president clinton's secretary who i think
famously quipped every time i talk to somebody in the white house what ends up happening is they get a subpoena and end up having to hire a lawyer and incur legal expenses. when there is an investigation and particularly a special counsel or independent counsel investigation it has consequence to the people that are around the president. but i will say also just because there are leaks into the media that the fbi is investigating something you have to be careful about trying to make too much of that. the fbi is investigating because that is what they do if they interview somebody everybody gets up in arms about the fbi is investigating in and of itself that doesn't mean very much. >> and considering the conversation that we have been having over -- investigating means investigating. it does not imply guilt. it implies that there have an
investigation. >> you are a long way away from deciding by a prosecutor after interviews and after some discussion about whether or not any crimes have been committed and even then whether or not it is appropriate to bring charges. everybody just needs to kind of calm down and stand down for just a moment and at least allow the investigation some time to begin before anybody should expect results from that investigation. >> just like with any other thing especially when you are talking about the criminal justice system there is a presumption of innocence first. is that correct even so with this in. >> of course. it is an important thing to remember. the president and the president's people are just as much entitled as they are held to be accountable under the law and no person in the united states including the president is above the law. all of the same constitutional protections apply. one is presumed to be innocent
and you shouldn't necessarily assume which is why it remains secret the whole purpose of which is to not imply that they have committed a crime until such time as a prosecutor stands behind a charge and brings a formal proceeding. there is no reason to think that that is going to happen. that is why you have an investigation to decide one way or another whether or not you should be bringing charges. >> it's ryan and i were talking about as you mentioned earlier. i talked about it, as well. people think automatically there is an investigation therefore the president or jared kushner must be guilty. when are they going away? that is not necessarily the case. >> i harkin back to people were angry at president obama when he didn't close guantanamo bay the day he became president. that is not how this all works.
i think the broad take away here is that this investigation is broadening. it was russia which is not a small thing but it was russia's involvement in the election and now according to the washington post we are talking about obstruction of justice. the investigation into obstruction of justice, not obstruction of justice as it relates to the president and now financial dealings as it relates to jared kushner. it is widening rather than narrowing. i'm not a lawyer so i can't tell you what that means. i can tell you politically speaking the broader it gets the more this is why people don't like politicians don't like special counsels. >> every time there is a special counsel in an investigation like this it may start off investigating something and then ends up being something else. it may start as collusion and comes down to obstruction of justice without people realizing. >> look what happened to trump. he went from being told by james
comey you are not a subject of this investigation to trump taking a series of actions that has made him a subject of the investigation because of firing comey and having him allegedly trying to shut down the flynn investigation. these things can spin out of control very quickly. >> the president has been ignoring questions about it. he has been tweeting up a storm and said they made up phony collusion with the russian story and found zero proof. now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. you are witnessing the single greatest witch hunt led by very bad and conflicted people. do you think that he really gets the severity of how serious this situation is? >> apparently not because if he knew the severity of the counter intelligence investigation in the first instance he would not have intervened in it to create the secondary obstruction of justice investigation.
there was no need at the outset of this there for this to have an obstruction of justice component to it. he created that by his insi insistence on people doing things that he wanted done which weren't normal to the course of an investigation so if there is a witch hunt as it relates to him and obstruction, it's a self-imposed, self-inflicted wound. >> even saying on cnn's air, answering questions and on other networks that it's not a witch hunt. >> but maybe you can help me understand this. robert mueller had this great reputation, everybody said he's a straight up guy. we now found out he was interviewing with the fbi director. we've now had two leaks that have come out from his investigation. that's how we know about this obstruction of justice thing. and the jared kushner thing, it isn't even news -- >> how is it he was interviewed by the fbi director?
how does that make him a stand-up guy? >> i'm saying there are credibility issues going on with robert mueller specifically when it talks about leaks from his own investigation. the only reason we know anything is going on with jared kushner is the -- >> wait, wait, wait, why would the president be interviewing him as fbi director if he's not credible? >> i think it's something helpful to -- >> one credibility thing that i think -- >> hold on. in fairness, did you want to ask a question? >> is it normal for robert mueller to have investigations where early on there's already two leaks driving news stories about things that are pertinent to the -- >> let's let robert -- robert, can you weigh in on that? >> of course, i can weigh in. i think anybody who's spent any time around a criminal investigation at the federal law enforcement level knows that the fbi does in fact leak.
that's not a news flash. look, i agree with the point that that's troubling. it should not be coming out of bob mueller's office. but unfortunately, with regard to a high-profile investigation, and i have been part of one, there are very few people that you can trust. and with regard to matters that you need to ensure do not go into the public domain, you tell very few people. i mean, i can recall with regard to the matters involving whether or not -- the decision whether or not to charge the president of the united states once he left office, bill clinton, that with regard to the resolution of that matter, i told basically three people -- my deputy, my chief of investigations, and i think a third person, and that's all i told. that obviously hamstrings your ability to discuss matters within your own office. but you know that if you do, it
will end up in the newspapers. so it's very difficult. >> michael? go ahead. >> with respect to this discussion, in a courtroom, there's an objection which says objection, that assumes a fact not in evidence. >> right. >> how do we know -- >> you have no way of knowing. suppose robert mueller calls the cia director, and he says, i would like to interview you. one thing to make sure we are aware of, these are interviews, these are not grand jury appearances. this is early in the preliminary where he's getting statements. so he calls the cia director's office and said i'd like to interview you. that goes to his administrative assistant, it goes to his chief of staff, and he says, and bring documents. and then they go to the staff to get the documents together. to pre-suppose that leak came from the fbi or mueller's side of that conversation is assuming a fact not in evidence. we have no way of knowing where that information derived from. >> if you read the stories of
the last two days carefully, especially the one yesterday, it actually makes it, reading between the lines, it's fairly clear it did not come from the fbi. it's coming from witnesses who are being approached by investigators, and they're free to tell anyone they want. we have to distinguish here, you're talking about leaks if leaks are all illegal. >> they're not, yeah. >> that's the currency of washington. another way of describing information that is in the public's interest and right to know. i agree with you sometimes classified -- if someone leaks classified information, there's a law that's broken. but just leaking information, giving information to a reporter to inform the public, there's nothing wrong with that. >> i agree with both of these gentlemen, what you just said. you have to ask the question, why is there such haste to assign these leaks to the fbi. well, i think it is the white house's strategy to try to discredit bob mueller to potentially build a case for firing him. so now it's leaks.
previously, kellyann conway tweeting out that mueller conducting this investigation that were made years ago. i think they're trying to build a case. it was extremely important today to get the congressional republicans on record to say they don't agree with the white house's attempt to discredit bob mueller, because if he does proceed to trying to fire him, we need the think about resurrecting -- the point of this entire thing is this is about politics. this investigation is about tol ticks. the democrats using it is about politics. and in the end, even an investigation of the president when it goes to congress, is about politics. >> just one quick question. just a point of clarification that i want to know. the decision to appoint bob mueller was made by the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein, right? so why is it -- i'm not trying to be polly ann-ish.
rosenstein is a trump nominee. he's just been confirmed. >> listen, go read alan dershowitz's column on the hill of what is obstruction of justice. the president of the united states has the power to pardon people, not constitutionally when he's executing his duties is it obstruction of justice. that's my point. >> this is about the administration of justice. you might want it to be about politics, but it is a criminal justice investigation, pure and simple. when you label things leaks, that aren't leaks, and when you try to insinuate bad motive to people who are investigating it, then you make something into a political investigation that doesn't have to be. >> and i would like to tell the panel and the viewers, if you want to know about why it's about leaks, and other things, just go online and google the talking points, the rnc talking points on the "washington post" story. it's online, talks about leaks,
how it's political and on and on and on. and basically what we're hearing from a lot of folks. i'm glad to have you here to discuss this. we'll be right back. whoooo. looking for a hotel that fits... ...your budget? tripadvisor now searches over 200 sites to find you the hotel you want at the lowest price. grazie, gino! find a price that fits. tripadvisor. just turn on cars.coms on tprice dropswant?
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this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. there's breaking news about the president's son-in-law and top aides is under investigation by the special counsel. and bill cosby's jury still unable to reach a verdict after four days of deliberations. we've got lots to talk about tonight. i want to get to my panel. david is here, laura, and simone sanders, kevin