tv Erin Burnett Out Front CNN September 4, 2017 7:30pm-8:30pm PDT
escalating tensions with north korea, what will that rogue nation do? this is cnn tonight. thank you so much for joining us. south korean officials fearing north korea may be preparing to launch another ballistic missile in the wake of the massive test of its most powerful nuclear weapon yet. america's ambassador to the united nations lashing out today at north korea's leader, kim jong-un. >> his abusive use of missiles and his nuclear threats show that he is begging for war. >> and the defense secretary
james mattis sternly warning north korea that all military options are on the table. also ahead, sources telling cnn that president trump expected to announce that he is ending the immigration program known as daca, which protects young undocumented immigrants who kiem here as children from being deported. is president trump living up to a campaign promise or passing the about you can to congress? we've got a lot to get to in the next couple of hours. in the waters off the east coast of the korean peninsula. ian, hello to you. the north koreans have conducted this massive nuclear test. it's six so far and tonight cnn is reporting that south korea is conducting live fire exercises off the east coast of the korean peninsula. give us the very latest. >> reporter: yeah, don. that is the continuation of these military exercises that we are seeing.
this being a live fire exercise off the east coast. this is to show that the south korean navy is ready in case of any outbreak of violence. we also are following this latest intelligence that north korea could be firing a ballistic missile in the following hours or days. also, we're following that president moon here in south korea spoke with president trump over 24 hours since that nuclear test in which time president trump spoke with the japanese prime minister twice, something that didn't go unnoticed here in south korea. but in that conversation they talked about strengthening the cooperation between the two countries' militaries. and south korea's defense minister talked that he's willing to consider the deployment of american tactical nuclear weapons, although south korea's presidency said they're still committed to denuclearization of the peninsula. also they talked about lifting
the limit of the size of ballistic missiles south korea can develop. currently that is capped at 500 kilograms. the they also talked about south korea purchasing billions of dollars in weapons and equipment. don. >> all right. thank you very much. i appreciate that. i want to bring in now cnn white house reporter kaitlyn collins. political commentator david swir lig. and political analyst david drucker. thank you so much for being here, especially on this holiday evening. i want to start with this. i want to read -- this is from north korea. they issued a statement, a defiant message to the u.s. it says every time the u.s. goes crazy talking about sanctions and war our will and vengeance will become hundred and thousand times stronger. provoke us as you wish. with our nuclear strategic weapons we will eradicate the land of u.s. with no trace left
on earth. david, that does not sound like kim jong-un is backing down at any time. >> no, he's not backing down. there have been statements made by the north koreans and us in recent weeks that have ratcheted the tension, ratcheted up the sort of stakes and the attention on this issue and probably led to a situation where allies and adversaries might see this as a potentially more fraught situation than it has been. but the facts kind of remain the same right, don, that north korea wants to push ahead with its missile program because they want to project themselves as a power that can't be touched by the west, and we have a situation where although we are the world's greatest super power, we only have a series of sort of bad options. so there's a level at which the stakes are higher and there's a level at which it's the same problem that confronts president trump that's confronted a bunch of different presidents. >> you remember steve bannon saying there is no viable option. >> yeah. >> in one report.
kaitlyn, here is what the trump administration is saying after pyongyang tested a weapon on sunday. >> any threat to the united states or its territories, including guam or our allies will be met with a massive military response. >> his abusive use of missiles and his nuclear threats show that he is begging for war. war is never something the united states wants. we don't want it now, but our country's patience is not unlimited. >> that's strong words from the secretary mattis and the u.s. ambassador to the u.n. nikki haley. what is president trump prepared to do about north korea. >> we're actually getting some mixed signals from the white house on this here, don. as you know, the president as he was leaving church yesterday was asked if he would order an attack on north korea and he answered it a very vague answer of we will see. but so the white house is definitely using some tough language here, but what they're
signaling is that they're more likely to put sanctions and economic pressure on north korea. treasury secretary steve mnuchin announced yesterday that he is drafting a new sanctions package that elsend to the president that will put economic pressure on them. and is saw the president tweeted that he's considering stopping trade with any country that does business with north korea. they're using this tough language. the same comments along the lines of fire and fury. it definitely seems like they're signaling they're going to put more economic pressure on north korea at this time. >> interesting. we just put that up on the screen what he said. aside from pressuring an ally, david drucker, what is the president saying about, you know, diplomacy there? >> well, look, i think what we're seeing from the administration is in a sense a two track approach. whether it's on purpose or not. what you have secretary of defense jim mattis, general mcmaster with a more traditional, though much more aggressive push to try and contain the north korean problem. and then you have president
trump, who likes to speak colorfully and on twitter and often seems to get ahead of where his own policymakers actually are. >> fire and fury, right? >> right. and so i think for the administration, i don't think it's necessarily a problem that they've ratcheted up the pressure because the previous three administrations have all tried different approaches, some more diplomatic than others, some with the carrot and the stick. nothing has worked and the problem has only gotten worse. those were all veil yant efforts. i think what's important for this president is to make sure he doesn't get ahead of his skis. is in other words, if he's going to make a threat, it's important that we're in a position it on carry it out. if we're not going to do business with anybody who trades with north korea, they better think through everything that that means. it's not so much trying new policies or even ratcheting up some of the pressure rhetorically that's the problem. they just have to be in a position where they know they
can follow through because as the north korean regime has shown over the years under this dictator and under his father, they don't really care. their only claim to legitimacy is that they have a nuclear weapons program. they're not going to be dealt with in a way that is going to separate them from that because then they would be vulnerable for the kind of regime that they're actually running, that is killing millions of their own people. >> where is the secretary of sthat? where is rex tillerson on all of this? the state department spokesman tweeted that he has made some calls to his counterparts including south korea, but when north korea is testing a hydrogen bomb, the most powerful test so far, i mean, do we need to hear more? >> yes. it would be nice if we actually had a secretary of state that took an active voice in terms of dealing with the korean peninsula. you know what would also be nice? if we had an under secretary of state for political affairs, if we had an assistant secretary of state for east asian affairs, if we had an assistant of state for arms control. if we had an assistant secretary
of state for intelligence and research. basically the problem is is that there's been almost no political appointments made to the state department. so you have a combination of an institution that essentially has almost no sort of upper level management in terms of trying to be able to reach out to other allies which issing go to be necessary for any kind of coordinated response and unfortunately a secretary of state that seems simultaneously on the outs with the president and not terribly effective in terms of actually communicating what our foreign policy is to other countries. so, yeah, this is a serious problem. and this is a situation where it doesn't seem like rex tillerson has really learned on the job terribly well. >> i've got to ask you this before we move on because i want to talk about daca and we'll talk about it in the hours to come. as people are sitting at home right now and they're coming back from the holiday, the question that i got from everyone is like what's going to happen? are we going to go to war? how should the american people, how should the average person read what's going on here?
>> yeah. i've been to two cook outs today and i got that question at both cook outs. so, yeah, it's not a minor question. i have to say, unfortunately, i think the answer i can give is i think we'll be fine. i can't say that with complete certainty, but there is a certain pattern in terms of confrontation with north korea and their weapons and missile tests, which is they conduct a weapons or missile test. there is a great deal of rhetoric from the trump administration about how this cannot stand. sometimes the united nations actually does impose new sanctions. china skoelds both sides for irresponsible behavior and proposes some other sort of solution to this. and then things die down for a little bit. you know, i mean, in some ways this is a replay of what happened three weeks ago after trump's fire and fury comments which was a response to the ballistic missile test. so we're right in the middle of this right now and i'm not saying that it will necessarily sort itself outed, but there is an unfortunate degree of predict
ant to these kind of crises which is north korea engages in some transdepression, some degree of sanctions are imposed on them and life continues to go on until the next transdepression. >> yeah. that seems like what's happening. okay. thank you. kaitlyn, let's talk about daca now. the president expected to end daca, the program that protects undocumented immigrants who came here as children, the dreamers, protect them from being deported with a six month delay. he's putting this on congress, the attorney general jeff sessions is going to hold a no questions briefing tomorrow morning on this. why now? why deal with this now when has sort of been the august and looking at maybe the september of chaos? >> well, the president's hand has really been forced on this issue, don. as you know, it was something that he railed against during the campaign. he said he would terminate it immediately if he got elected. and then we saw him not make any moves on it since he took office, saying that he was going to have heart for dreamers and that they could rest easy. but with this deadline set by these state attorneys general, he really has had to make a
decision on this and now it's kind of falling on the shoulders of congress to allow these people to find a way, a fix, a legislative fix to allow these people to stay in the country, the only country that they've ever known. and so the blame is certainly going to be shouldered from the white house to the members of congress, who have six months to make this decision while they already have pay lot on their plates. >> dave drucker, before we go, republicans -- some republicans support the version that's there, speaker paul ryan, warren hatch, jeff flake and others. it's something that impacts 800,000 people. it has been reported that the president is looking for a way to push this off to congress. so now what? what happens? i mean, will republicans be able to come up with something? >> yeah. this is really interesting, don, because as you know republicans have been at war with themselves over immigration for about a decade. and under president obama, who they could not work with most of the time for fear of getting primaried and dealing with all
sorts of internal political problems, they especially couldn't work with him on the immigration issue. here you have the biggest immigration hawk there is theoretically in president trump, who although the human element aside here, the politics of this is interesting because by saying he's going to give, if this is what he does, six months for congress to do something about this before he implements the roll back, what he's theoretically sighing is i'll sign a big. so if you have the biggest immigration hawk in town saying he'll sign a bill, does that give republicans more room to maneuver internally and give them more room to work with democrats on a daca fix. we've already seen tom cotton about possibly being willing to sign off on a fix, probably not palatable to the democrats, but you're seeing some republicans say they will be open to this beyond the usual suspects. so therefore i think this could be interesting. but it depends on how high a priority republicans in congress that support a dreamer bill are
willing to put on this and how much muscle they're willing to put into this. i don't think the president is going to put too much muscle into this. if paul ryan is willing to do it and other republicans who support this, then maybe they might be able to get something done. >> it's interesting because it's a campaign promise and some people who wanted him to end it and now he's saying he's kind of waflg on it. thank you all. i appreciate it. we're going to talk daca a lot more in the coming hours. when we come back, much more on north korea's growing nuclear threat. we're going to go live to seoul with an update on what north korea is saying now. and how countries in the region are responding. i count on my dell small business advisor
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breaking news, south korea's navy conducting a major live fire drill in the waters off the east coast of the korean peninsula. it's a show of force in response to north korea's massive nuclear test. i want to bring in now david stroub who is a former head of the korea desk at the state department. also joining us on cnn contributor at the wilson center. thank you so much for joining us, both of you. david, i want to start with you. by getting your reaction to south korea's live fire exercises tonight on the waters off the east coast of the korean peninsula. are we moving closer to war on the peninsula? >> i don't think we are. i think the bottom line is the united states can contain north korea and deter it, but there's going to be a lot of drama in the coming months because the north korean strategy is to try to convince the united states
that it can attack it with nuclear weapons. >> gene, is this a message from south korea -- from the south koreans that they are ready to fight, and is it one that the north koreans are likely to >> this is certainly a part of a growing movement in korea to be able to protect themselves. but i think really what this is is north korea's bid to -- we're going to start to see north korea reacting to this. we're hearing reports -- i just want to mention. we're hearing reports that there's some movement on the launch pad and they may be testing another missile. this is north korea's way to ramp up the tension so they can continue testing its nuclear devices and its missiles. >> the u.s. keeps saying all options are on the table. you just heard nicky haley in the segment before that north
korea is begging for war. is she right? >> no. i think north korea is trying to frighten us. they think if they intimidate us long enough, that sooner or later the united states will come to negotiations on their terms. so we need to be smarter about this. we should understand what they're trying to do and, rather than responding with our own brinkmanship rhetoric, we should say, this is not going to work. and you can calm down or not, but we'll deter you and we'll contain you. that would be real leadership. and that's not what we're getting from president trump right now. >> jean, i want to play just a little bit more of what the defense secretary mattis' remarks, some of his remarks we heard in an earlier segment. watch this. >> we're not looking to the total annihilation of a country, namely north korea, but as i said, we have many options to do so. >> so kim must know the u.s. could wipe him out. so what does he really want?
>> he does. >> well -- >> just remember, he is not suicidal. he is not suicidal. he also knows that the militaries in this region are constrained by the cease-fire and when they talk about military options the most they can do really at this point is the show of force that we're seeing right now, showing off and really reminding north korea that they have these powerful and intimidating assets in the region. but he knows how to push it right up to the limit and that's exactly what he's doing. i agree entirely with david that he's trying to show them that he'll go as far as he can to stand up to the yeets. and if they let this go on further, he's going to have this intercontinental ballistic missile mounted with a nuclear warhead that's capable of striking the united states. >> i appreciate your expertise. thank you so much. when we come back, much more on north korea's nuclear capacity and how the president is handling this crisis. plus president trump appearing
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we see their hunger. their courage. we see their dreams. we see the things that built our nation. and we wonder, what would happen if everyone had equal access to education? what would they discover? what new worlds would they build? that's why we built a university for everyone. southern new hampshire university president now dealing with three big crises including north korea all at the same time. a columnist for "the new york times." north korea continues to be one of the biggest issues facing this country. the trump hardline stance
doesn't appear to be working with kim jong-un, something that general michael hayden addressed on cnn just yesterday. here it is. >> mr. president, it's not a manhood issue. this is a national security issue. don't let your pride get ahead of wise policy here. >> interesting because trump and kim, they both have very strong personalities. has he finally met someone as stubborn as he is, meaning trump? >> look, i've been as critical of president trump as anybody and it's certainly true that his policy to north korea isn't working but in fairness no policy to north korea has worked. over the years we and south korea both have tried soft line policies, we've tried hardline policies, we've tried bribery, sanctions, secret envoys, we've tried threats. and north korea really wants a nuclear program and a missile program and i don't think that
china is going to be there to step in to sabe the day even if they could, which i have some doubts about. and so, you know, in international relations, unfortunately, there's more problems than there are solutions and this is an example. >> this is a reality that they're going to be recognized as a nation that has nuclear weapons? is that right? there's no viable option? >> my best guess is that, considering the alternatives, like a military intervention, that we will end up essentially acquiescing, unfortunately, in north korea having nuclear warheads and a capacity to deliver them, then we'll be forced to rely on deterrents. and that should make everybody nervous, but on the other hand we have deterred them from using their huge stockpile of chemical and biological weapons. >> do you think there will be deterrence or an acquiescence of the united states and china and everybody in the region? >> my best guest is there won't be a military confrontation.
there will be a lot of talk about it. but the one scenario i worry about is north korea has an icbm on the launchpad and we decide we want to take the risk of taking that out. that might work or it might start another korean war. >> i just want to put this up. when you put up these things, every time the u.s. goes crazy talking about sanctions and war, our will of vengeance will become hundred and thousand times stronger. provoke us as you wish. with our nuclear strategic weapons, we will eradicate the land of u.s. with no trace left on earth. >> they make a scapegoat of outside pressure. and so we feed into their narrative of being surrounded and threatened when we make these statements. the one thing they want to do is peel us off from south korea and i'm afraid that president trump is playing right into that game. >> i want to ask you about daca
now. he's got so much on his plate. he's got north korea as we're discussing now and we're here on a holiday discussing that. he's got texas and the immediate aftermath of harvey and the transgender thing that happened and he's dealing with people questioning whether he -- his capacity to govern and members of his own party and on and on. and he's trying to get tax reform through and obamacare didn't happen. he has so much going on, why is he announcing this now on daca? >> the timing is driven because several republican attorneys general are threatening to sue the government over daca by tomorrow if president trump didn't act. that in one sense is driving it. look, he can push back against these attorney generals. one of the problems is that jeff sessions is just vehemently -- is determined he's not going to defend it. but i don't think that president trump is providing any real moral leadership here. and i think that we're breaking our promise to those dreamers.
they're a part of the fabric of our society. as you know, they came here as kids. they were in school, some of them in the american military. >> as of 2011 he had spoken out saying he supported daca. this would be a change for him. >> even early this year he talked about the dreamers in a very positive way. he talked about his big heart. and -- >> this is a naked appeal to his base, is that what it is? >> he's doubling down -- in so many ways president trump has been doubling down on his base rather than doing what presidents normally do, which is to build bridges, to try to build that base. and in each case, he's doubling down in ways that i think are really damaging to his own popularity but also to the country as a whole. and at enormous cost to these young dreamers. >> appreciate your time. >> good to be with you. this is cnn breaking news.
>> here's the breaking news at the top of the hour. south korea's navy conducting a major live fire drill in the waters off the east coast of the korean peninsula. it's a show of force in response to north korea's massive nuclear test. this is cnn. i'm don lemon. pyongyang may be preparing to test yet another intercontinental ballistic missile. also ahead more breaking news. hurricane irma strengthens into a powerful category 4 storm out in the atlantic. florida and puerto rico each declare a state of emergency. we're going to take a look at irma's expected track. i want to welcome viewers here in the united states and around the world. but we begin this hour, the hour ahead with reactions in north korea's massive nuclear test. here's cnn pentagon correspondent barbara starr. >> reporter: this live fire exercise by south korean forces, a direct military response to the north's largest nuclear
test. army and air forces simulating an attack on north korea's nuclear test site. even as north korean state media/ed new threats to the u.s. including guam, one editorial saying every time the u.s. goes crazy talking about sanctions and war our will of vengeance will become hundred and thousand times stronger. u.s. ambassador nikki haley very much in the hardline mode back at kim. >> his abusive use of missiles and his nuclear threats show that he is begging for war. war is never something the united states wants. we don't want it now. >> reporter: intentions pushing defense secretary james mattis to exactly where he never wants to be -- center stage at the white house. >> any threat to the united states or its territories, including guam or our allies, will be met with a massive
military response, a response both effective and overwhelming. >> reporter: but are there credible military options without thousands of casualties? >> but i think secretary mattis was doing was simply trying to convince the north that we have this option, and they cannot be certain we would never use it under certain circumstances. >> reporter: it may be the most critical decision ever for donald trump. >> how much of a price we are willing to pay? how much we are willing to bleed to accomplish our objectives. this is a decision not for military members. this is a decision for elected political leaders to make. and they always have to weigh the cost versus the benefit. >> reporter: short of u.s. attack, the pentagon could send an aircraft carrier off shore, the "ronald reagan" is nearby. more bombers could be sent.
south korea and japan both upping their missile defenses in cooperation with the u.s., but there is no indication kim jong-un is listening. >> we predict that north korea could fire an intercontinental ballistic missile to show they've obtained the means of delivering a nuclear bomb to the united states. >> reporter: some u.s. military assets could move closer to the korean peninsula in the coming days. nothing has been announced yet. but the bottom line is would any of this change kim jong-un's mind about proceeding with his weapons program? the betting money is it won't. barbara starr, the pentagon. i want to bring in lieutenant general mark hurtling, colonel cedric leighton. colonel warren, the situation appears to be escalating. how close is the u.s. to some sort of military action with north korea, if any? >> well, i think you have to remember that the u.s. military
is prepared to fight at any moment. in korea they have a saying, it's been there since i patrolled in korea, it's -- ready to fight tonight. so the u.s. military remains ready. whether or not that decision is about to be made, i don't think it's quite there yet, but we are always going to remain ready. >> general hurtling, to you now, south korea's defense minister says he was willing to review a plan of deployment of american tactical nuclear weapons to the korean peninsula. what do you think about that? >> it's an interesting dynamic. it's another factor. we've given up nuclear weapons on the peninsula decades ago, don. just bringing up the topic is probably part informational to show north korea that we're thinking about it. i don't think personally that that's going to happen any time soon. there's no need to have them on the peninsula itself if we want to deliver nuclear weapons they can be delivered in other ways.
>> let's talk about this hydrogen bomb that north korea tested. the most powerful test to date, more powerful than the bombs that the u.s. dropped on japan in world war ii. how does this change the dynamic here? >> the big change is that it shows that north korea is not only serious about its nuclear program it's got something in terms of actual material that can be used. we don't know exactly if it's a hydrogen bomb but the betting is it could very well be. it looks similar to a u.s. model that's called the w-80 that was used as far back as the '60s. there are certain similarities that we already have in the u.s. arsenal. it leads one to potentially look at it as, yes, this is a big game changer and the way we interact with the north koreans and heightened tensions further along on the korean peninsula. >> general hurtling, i'm sensing
you want to add to that. >> what's fascinating is the fact that we're watching all of this occur and it's something dk i heard you talk to some of your guests earlier tonight. they were all talking about the bluster of the north korean leader kim jong-un and the things he said in the statements today. for those who have served on the peninsula, we're used to that. that's always gone on not only with kim jong-un but his father and grandfather before that. what's different this time is now there's a little bit of bluster on both sides. secretary mattis' address, as steve mentioned a minute ago, was terrific because it was very precise and succinct on what we would do if the north koreans launched anything toward either our allies or our friends in the area or our own territory. so that was a warning. but all the other things, you've also asked your guests about, do you think this is going to increase the potential for war? in the past anyone that served there would say, no, this is
just the yearly bluster by the grand leader in the north. but this year because there's bluster on both sides, i was doing a little re-reading today, barbara tuchman's "guns of august," whenever you have people doing things like this on both sides, it could bring about unintended consequences. that's what concerns me. >> that's very concerning to many people. colonel warren, what is the china factor here? because president trump tweeted this. the united states is considering, in addition to other options, stopping all trade with any country doing business with north korea. he is taking aim at china there. what's our next move and will threats like this work? >> he's certainly taking aim at china. i think there's this idea that somehow china has their finger on the north korea switch and that we only pressure china enough they'll flip the switch and the north koreans will behave. i don't believe that's the case. i think the chinese certainly have some influence on the north
koreans, but i don't think the north koreans are simply going to roll over and do anything the chinese ask. furthermore, i'm not convinced the chinese feel that it's in their interests to help us with this north korea problem. i think the chinese like a buffer state there in north korea, and i think they're satisfied to let it kind of continue to boil along despite perhaps what we heard in the u.n. today. >> speaking of the -- go ahead, colonel. >> don, one thing i'd add is the timing is terrible on this right now because china is undergoing an election season. mr. xi gets elected again, probably i think the date is the 18th or the 19th of october. so there's about another six weeks where he's focused on internal politics in china. he is not all that focused on what the united states wants him to do with regard to north korea. >> let's not forget. the u.s./china relationship is large and it's complicated. with the chinese and the u.s.
have interests in the south china sea and there's interests in pakistan and afghanistan and africa, and all of these different -- you know, the uighurs and counterterrorism. so there's such a large and complex relationship that to kind of shed light on only one piece of that relationship will be a little misleading. >> speaking of unintended consequences general hurtling mentioned or i think everyone has talked about that or at least mentioned it, it wasn't this long ago that we heard this from the current president of the united states. >> north korea best not make any more threats to the united states. they will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen. he has been very threatening beyond a normal state, and as i said, they will be met with fire, fury and, frankly, power, the likes of which this world
has never seen before. >> colonel, that didn't stop anything, did it? >> not at all, don. the real problem with that is it should have actually been used in a situation where the north koreans have actually done something where they've attacked something and, god forbid, caused the loss of life somewhere. this is the kind of behavior and the kind of rhetoric that really escalates things needlessly. when president trump did this, he set in motion a kind of scenario that could result in the types of miscalculations as general hurtling mentioned, that were prevalent during the start of world war i with the guns of august and other conflicts. war is a series of potential miscalculations. if you start doing things like this, then you risk getting things to a state where they careen out of control. when that happens, nobody knows where the train will go. >> colonel, should the u.s. accept north korea as a nuclear
power? >> that i think is one of the most difficult questions. the de facto answer is they are at least a nuclear state, whether or not they're a nuclear power, that really depends on their ability to actually deliver a missile to an intended target. they may not be there yet. i think it would be too early to say they should be admitted to the de facto club of nuclear nations. that's a real serious step. it, of course, would be a very -- basically a loss of -- would mean a loss of face for the united states. it would be a dangerous precedent in many ways for us if we allowed them into that club, but we may not have a choice in the long run. >> colonel warren, same question. >> yeah, i think this is a nuclear nation. they have nuclear weapons. they have some capability to deliver those weapons either short range or medium range, eventually long range. what we have to focus on is putting away these sort of pipe
dreams of denuclearizing the peninsula. that toothpaste won't go back into the tube. it's time to look at what can we do to contain this threat. >> i'll ask you the same question. but it is still with this, is it still possible to negotiate? >> well, i think it's always possible to negotiate, don. the answer to your question is should we accept them? yes, because they are one. are they a rogue nuclear nation? are they a pariah? yes, they are. the negotiations should focus on how do we control and make sure they don't do anything stupid with these nuclear weapons. we've seen this occur in other states. there's no governing body across the world that says a nation can or cannot be a nuclear state. it's what they do with the nuclear weapons that we try to bring the governments into the fold. in this case you have an autocratic dictator who is a little bit of a rogue and it becomes almost a terrorist
nation in that regard. that requires negotiation and a whole lot of diplomacy. >> thank you so much. and thank you for your service. i appreciate your time. >> thank you, don. when we come back, the president expected to announce he'll end president obama's immigration program that protects undocumented immigrants who came here as children from being deported. we'll go behind his decision next. we've had a lot to do with (muswhat you've been doing. ♪ your browsing. your posting. your selfie-ing. your- you know what you've been up to. in fact, you wouldn't be doing any of it if our engineers hadn't gotten to doing it first. every 9.8 seconds you're reaching for it, that thing we did. no, we're not the name you think of when you think of smartphones.
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sources telling cnn that president trump is expected to announce, possibly tomorrow, that he's ending the immigration program known as daca, which stands for deferred action for childhood arrivals. it protects nearly 800,000 undocumented immigrants who were brought here as children from deportation. the president delayed taking action for six months thereby giving congress time to come up with a fix. let's talk about this and what's going to happen. maria cardona is here. so glad to have both of you come on especially on this holiday to inform our viewers. if the president rescinds daca, what will it mean for the immigrant community and their children who are undocumented but have been here since childhood? >> well, i think it would mean yet another big slap in the face by this president who really does not understand what the immigrant community and
immigrants have contributed to this country. i think it would be a heartless act and an unnecessary act. if he really wants to urge congress to get a legislative solution, which is really what we need at the end of the day to fix this once and for all, then he should do it by his own will and by trying to convince his own republicans in congress to do what's right and do what is sensible. this is something that the majority of the american people including republicans, including trump voters agree with, to give these kids a pathway to citizenship, to give these kids the opportunity to live out the american dream in a country that they know, that they love and they don't know no other country. they're as american as you and i. >> john, you don't think it's a good idea. you think it's a good idea to get rid of it. >> we have a rule of law in this country. if you have no laws, you have no country. when the president -- when obama did this originally, he acted in
an unconstitutional manner against the laws of the united states, don, and he admitted that several times. so trump has no choice. >> you mean -- you're talking about executive order? >> when obama made the executive order, that was an unconstitutional order that he said five prior times he couldn't do. put that aside. that's already done. here's the bottom line. this president xand on getting rid of daca for 18 months. elections have consequences. it amazes me, don, it amazes me whenever this president follows through on a promise, the elites in washington and the establishment republicans are shocked. you know why? because they don't follow through on anything. these republicans who are going to back amnesty, here's what they do. they go back to their constituencies, they tell them one thing, then they go to washington and they do the exact
opposite. they go home and they lie, then they go to washington and they do whatever wall street says, the chamber of commerce says and their donors say. this is -- you have to fix the rule of law, don. >> let me ask you this. you're saying that the former president, the executive order was unconstitutional. so all the executive orders that this president has signed, are they unconstitutional? >> don't confuse the issue, don. we're talking about -- >> but you're saying it was unconstitutional, an executive order and this white house says that its biggest accomplishments have been executive orders. i'm just asking you are they unconstitutional as well? >> none of the president's executive orders have been declared unconstitutional by the president. president obama said they were unconstitutional before he even executed it. that's the problem. >> that's not true. >> but the bottom line is --
look, we allow 4 million legal immigrants in the country annually to take jobs away from americans. 4 million! through green cards, work visas, student visas and et cetera. >> this doesn't really bear out that people are taking -- no, it doesn't. the facts don't bear that out. >> don, wages have been stagnant in this country for middle and low income workers for three decades. >> that has nothing do with immigrants. >> yeah. >> rich get richer, wealthy get wealthier. >> you're making the immigrants boogie -- >> they are the boogiemen. don it's economic reality that the libber always don't want to acknowledge. >> i'm just giving you the facts. the facts don't bear that out. that's a great talking point for conservative radio. >> growing -- >> if i could jump in here because i really have no idea
what john is talking about because he's using zero facts as per usual for somebody that wants to argue that immigrants should not be welcome in this country. >> that's not what i said. >> our economy depends on -- >> he did say they should follow the law. >> they should follow the law. >> my point is -- my point is -- >> cheap labor. >> my point is about daca, these dreamers, if we get rid of daca completely, then our economy is going to lose $4.65 billion in the next -- $465 billion in the next ten years. these are kids who contribute greatly to this economy. immigrants contribute greatly to this country, undocumented immigrants contribute greatly to this country and that is something that people like john and other republicans who don't want to see immigration grow in
this country don't understand that we're a country whose economy depends on immigrants, documented, yerks and now undocumented. i agree that we are a country of laws, but guess what? the rule of law does not exist in a vacuum. it exists to make sure that they serve people's lives. and immigration laws no longer serve the way that we have our economy set up. so we need to change those laws. >> john, listen to what the president has said about dreamers in the past. here it is. >> they shouldn't be very worried. i do have a big heart. we're going to take care of everybody. some absolutely incredible kids. i would say mostly. they were brought here in such a way -- it's a very, very tough subject. we're going to deal with daca with heart. we love the dreamers. we love everybody. >> so john, president trump's saying this is all political that he's trying to please the base and pass the buck and not
take responsibility for a decision that will affect millions and many say is cruel. is there truth to that and is that presidential leadership on a tough issue? >> well, look, i think you heard wa the president said. this isn't an easy decision for him to make. but we do have laws in this country that have to be followed. but look, i've got a big heart also. and that's for american workers whose wages have been stagnant for 30 years. these are the facts. you just can't make up stuff like that. >> but that's not the bulk of these dreamers. >> in mail, the mail african-american community wean 18 and 25 is higher than ever. why? jobs are going away. jobs get shipped over. and there's the factor of -- >> john, hold on. >> but that's not -- >> john, listen. again, that is a talking point. the facts don't bear this out. you know why jobs are going
away? >> sure, don. >> automation. people need to be retrained. technology. that's why jobs are going away. they're not going away because undocumented children come over or dreamers come over and stay. in many ways dreamers add to the economy. they go on and become successful citizens. there's less crime. >> then come here legally, don. follow the law. >> that's understandable. but don't give the talking point that they're taking jobs. >> that's not a talking point. it's the facts. >> no, it's not. >> it just simply is not. >> workers gone up in the united states in the past -- >> that's true but it has nothing to do with dreamers. you are conflating two different issues. >> no, i'm not. >> you say -- follow the law. you say follow the law, but these dreamers came here through no fault of their own. some of them had in idea that they had no status until they
graduated from high school. in of them are summa cum lauds in their high school classes. many of them bled and have died in our military. we had one who died this past weekend trying to save people in houston. and this is the way that we treat them? we are better than this as a country. this is a country that values this kind of work ethic, and we should show it. >> i've got to go. >> so maria, you basically, you basically want to make up your own laws, right? if you agree with the law -- >> no. i want congress to change the law. >> -- scrap it -- >> to serve what the situation is today. >> he's given them six months to do that. let's see what they do. >> let's sue what they do. republicans haven't been able to do it in the past. >> thank you, john. i appreciate it. >> we'll speak to one of the dreamers whose life could be drastically affected by the removal of daca. a man who was brought here at the age of 2.