tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN November 8, 2017 10:00pm-11:00pm PST
multiple sources telling cnn that michael flynn, the president's former national security adviser, is worried about the legal fate of his son michael g. flynn. russia special counsel robert mueller is investigating both. the question tonight is he also squeezing the son to get the father's cooperation? our chief national security adviser jim sciutto broke the story. he joins us now. so, jim, explain the latest on the concerns that michael flynn has about his son. >> here's what we're learning. multiple sources familiar with the matter say flynn has expressed concern about the potential legal exposure of his
son michael flynn jr., who like his father is under scrutiny by the security council robert mueller. flynn's concern, as you mentioned, anderson, could be a factor into decision on how to respond to mueller's ongoing investigation, which is both into russian meddling in the 2016 campaign as well as the business dealings of key trump campaign advisers. i'm told as well that flynn's wife laurie shares his concerns about their son's possible legal exposure. >> what are you learning about the legal issues that both he and his son could be facing? >> so this is revealing. i've spoken with two witnesses interviewed by special counsel investigators and they tell me the questions regarding flynn focus on his and his son's business dealings, including specifically their firm's reporting of income from work overseas. something known as the foreign agents registration act. it requires those acting as agents for foreign entities, either countries or companies, to publicly disclose their relationships with those companies and what kind of financial compensation they own
received. to be clear, flynn jr. served as his father's chief of staff. he was a top aide actively involved in his father's firm known as the flynn intel group. that included joining his father on some overseas trips. one of which was to moscow in 2015. december, you may remember flynn dined with vladimir putin, the russian president. this was at a gala held by rt, the russian television network. but it's not just russian. flynn, senior also under legal scrutiny by robert mueller's team on behalf of the turkish government, including flynn's alleged participation into discussions about the idea of forcibly removing a turkish cleric who has been living in exile here in the u.s., in pennsylvania. i should note in the past a spokesman for flynn has denied that those discussions occurred. >> jim sciutto, thanks very much. you're our chief national security correspondent, not adviser. not sure why i said adviser. i don't know what that means. thanks, jim. joining us now is house intelligence committee member democratic congressman eric
swalwell. congressman, thanks for being with us. what do you make of this new cnn reporting? do you believe that general flynn would have reason to be concerned, not just about his son, but also about himself? >> he should be worried, yes, anderson. if he were the only one who had gone to moscow during the campaign and had talked to the russian ambassador during the transition period and promised that sanctions were going to go away, maybe you could call this a coincidence, but now that we see a multiplicity of other people on the trump campaign with undisclosed russian contacts, the jig is up. we are on to this. it's not going to get any better. the best thing he and his son can do is just to be truthful and forthcoming about what their contacts were and what the president knew. >> i'm wondering what you make of the pace of the mueller investigation. you know, some of the president's supporters say it might stop with manafort and gai gaits gates, with the indictments, and papadopoulos,
with the plea deal, nothing else may come of it or that it's nearing the end. >> i actually read the papadopoulos deal as something that should really concern them. if you look at the timeline, they went to papadopoulos in january, he gave them a bs story. they went back to minimum in february, he stuck to the lie. they took a couple of months to gather evidence and confronted him again in july after they pulled him off a plane. this time the evidence was overwhelming. he found religion and told them the truth. think that shows, one, these individuals are willing to lie about their contacts with russia. but, two, that the fbi and the department of justice are determined to get to the bottom of it. that should send a chill to the trump team but also show them if they have something to hide, it's very likely that they're going to find it. >> we've seen the transcript of your committee's recent kind of long and unusual hearing with carter page. do you have any better idea of where he fits into all of this? >> well, he actually fits in the same manner that george papadopoulos fits, in that he tried to arrange a meeting between donald trump and vladimir putin. he went over to russia after telling jeff sessions and other members of the campaign.
no one expressed objection and he came back and gave them a report. he didn't just walk around the red square, he met with the deputy prime minister of russia. he also met with individuals from gazprom and rosneft. russia energy group members. this is also part of what was alleged in the dossier. also interesting, anderson, a month after the election he told the committee he had no work, no sources of income, but on his own dime went over to russia in december of 2016 and again was meeting in russia with russian bankers and scholars. and then went over to london and again met with russian bankers. this is interesting because who else went to london? george papadopoulos went to london and met with a professor and a russian intelligence service individual. >> finally, you are obviously on the judiciary committee. you noted on twitter today that every republican member on that committee voted against an amendment that you proposed regarding who in congress would be notified and how soon about any election interference.
i wonder why you think the amendment failed. >> we're updating the foreign surveillance act and our ability to surveil individuals overseas. i think thought this was a great opportunity to take lessons learned from what russia did, and also from the government response as russia was interfering. so i thought that in light of the delay that occurred as russia was interfering last time and when congress was notified, we should make sure that if any country's interfering in our elections that congress is notified immediately. every republican voted against that. it's disheartening, anderson. i think that's one of the best ways we can strengthen our shield is to show russia we're on to them and we're going to do better next time. >> appreciate you being with us. i want to bring in the panel. jeffrey, let me start off with you. just in terms of exertig pressure on a family member like this, it's playing hard ball but it's a pretty -- is it a common tactic? >> well, it is -- it is a common
tactic. it often arises in the context of spouses. you often have tax investigations where a husband and wife, for example, both signed a tax return. both are liable for criminal violations if the tax return is intentionally false. it often works out that the husband who was often the lead financial member of the family takes a plea or cooperates in some way to avoid having a -- his wife prosecuted as well. here you have a father and son. it is well within a prosecutor's discretion to say to a father, to michael flynn senior, look, we will not prosecute your son if you cooperate, take a plea or whatever. it's definitely hard ball, but it's done with some regularity. but the point we need to make here, of course, is that we have not established that either flynn has committed any crime. so maybe nobody will be cooperating or pleading guilty to anything.
>> jason, how do you see this? would it surprise you at all that flynn and his son would be under the microscope. >> i feel for general flynn. this evening, especially seeing the report. he's somebody who served the country honorably for 33 years. he's probably really kicking himself he. he brought his son into what essentially was their family business and now clearly their activities have caught the attention of federal investigators and the allegations being put forward are pretty serious. this looks like a pretty tough road in front of them. i think really the biggest news here is for all these developments, there's still nothing that says that the campaign colluded with russians. there is nothing today that says there is anything that goes to president trump. so what we've seen over these past couple of weeks is that paul manafort and rick gates have their set of problems. general flynn and potentially other folks connected with his firm might have their issues. but none of this has anything to do with the campaign or the president himself. >> jen, is that true? >> well, first, another aspect that is interesting about this news today is that it's another indication that mueller's focused on the financial ties,
which is important because that tells you something about motivation. a lot of people who are defending trump and his team are saying, this is just incompetence. people didn't know who they should or shouldn't meet with. if we know about the financial ties and why people were meeting and what they were getting out of it, it might tell us more. i would also say that mueller's team has been clear this is the beginning. this could be a very lengthy process. so they haven't made a conclusion. they haven't done a final report. but we did learn two weeks ago that the trump team did meet with russians and did show an openness to sharing information about hillary clinton. so that may not be a conclusion on collusion, but it certainly is an indication of an openness to it. >> scott? >> you know, i think flynn is different than page and papadopoulos. i mean, page and papadopoulos here are like the tweedle dee and tweedle dumb of this whole thing. flynn is actually important. he finished the campaign. he took a job in the white house. so it hits closer to home than these four jokers.
i have four boys at home, be i would wrestle six bears wearing a bacon flavored on tarred if you told me it was going to advantage them. i can't imagine the emotions you would feel if a special counsel says i'm going to throw your boy in the federal pen if you don't cooperate with this investigation. so i agree. i feel for these folks for getting themselves into this, but jason made a good point. right now none of these issues that they're looking at as far as we know are actually connected to trump. if you're in the white house, that's what you're rook looking for here, does this ever get to a campaign issue or not? we probably have a long way to go. tonight, we don't know that. i think what jeffrey say is true, we don't know if a crime was committed. >> van, there is a lot we don't know. we don't know what the process of general flynn being fired actually was after the white house was notified because several weeks went by and only until the "washington post" was going with a story that he actually was fired. we don't know what internal communications was about between the president and others. there is a lot we don't know. which doesn't mean everybody is exonerated but we just don't
know. >> what we do know is that the dominos are falling. that's what we know. and the one thing i think is still the most damning piece of evidence against donald trump is what donald trump has not said. he has never said one bad thing about vladimir putin. ever. this guy talks bad about everybody but ivanka and vladimir. i don't know what the connection there is, but if you -- if you think that it's just a coincidence that he has never said one bad thing about the russian dictator with all of this other stuff, i think you've got to keep watching this movie. beyond that, i think a couple of things. politically this is starting to add to the disease i think you saw yesterday -- people who should have been coming out yesterday didn't come out. people saying his tone, the conservatives, these things are starting to have a political impact on him and a legal impact could be coming.
>> well, i keep hearing trump defenders say, and i've said it, too, because it's true, well, we don't have any proof that there was -- that donald trump colluded with russia to meddle in the election. to which i would say whitewater, you know started about a land deal in arkansas and ends up -- bill clinton ends up being impeached. it doesn't matter that the original story, you know, didn't pan out. what matters is that you had an investigator who started looking into things, and let's be honest, when we have a campaign chairman whose house and storage facility is raided, we have a national security adviser who was on the entire campaign who is being -- a lot of pressure being exerted on him. as a father i completely understand that. that's maybe the worst way that you could squeeze this guy. i don't think it matters necessarily where this thing winds up. >> we're going to continue the conversation after a quick
break. we'll also take up last night's big election night and the president's effect on it, if there was one. what democrats' success says about the country's top republican. later, row unanimous farrow and his report ing on how far weinstein may have gone to silence and gain information about his accusers. fothere's a seriousy boomers virus out there that's been almost forgotten. it's hepatitis c. one in 30 boomers has hep c, yet most don't even know it. because it can hide in your body for years without symptoms,
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national security adviser michael flynn is worried about michael g. flynn's political fate. the story not only opens the window a crack into robert mueller's investigation, it could also kick off a new round of headlines about the investigation and how close it may get to the president. back now with the panel. jeff toobin, as you look at the pace of the mueller investigation, for those who say it's end nearing the end, you say what? >> i say that's very unlikely. just as a factual matter, the manafort trial is not even scheduled to next may and those dates tend to move back, not forward. the number of witnesses, you know, we don't know how many have testified before the grand jury, but, you know, i think the fact that we were all so much taken by surprise by the papadopoulos guilty plea suggests that, you know, as the rule goes, those who know don't tell and those who tell don't
know about the course of the mueller investigation. since we already have a date certain well into next year for a trial, i think we are at the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the end. >> jeff, how likely would it be that -- that the special counsel may want to try to flip mueller? i mean, may want to flip flynn? >> i think it's a certainty that he will want to interview him. you know, i -- you know, we talk about flipping as if, you know, we know exactly what someone will say. he is certainly someone who is very much at the center of the campaign, very much at the center of relations between the trump campaign and russia, which is after all the center of mueller's investigation. he certainly is going to want to talk to him. he is not going to give him immunity just because he wants to talk to him. presumably he will need a guilty plea to take -- before he gives him immunity.
that undoubtedly is part of any negotiations that are going on. flynn may well say i'm not talking to you. i didn't do anything wrong. if you want to -- if you want to charge me, charge me, but i am not cooperating. >> scott, you worked in a white house where investigations were going on. can you just speak to the impact it has on the workings of a white house. >> it's a grind. the staff that works there -- look, flynn worked in the white house, so he may have interacted with staff that are still there. they're probably getting interviewed. it doesn't mean they did anything wrong, but it does mean they had to hire a lawyer. they don't get pro bono lawyers, so the bills are stacking pup these jobs are already stressful enough. when you tack on the anxiety of this kind of an investigation, it hurts. the other thing that people forget is you might go in for an interview and then you wait. it could be weeks, it could be months. every day you wake up waiting for the next shoe to drop. is my name going to be in the press? is my name going to appear in some document? again, not that i did anything wrong, but the concept that i might be connected to it does
put anxiety on someone's mind. so it is a stressful moment for people, even if they're just witnesses in the investigation. >> and, remember, mike flynn a few months ago his attorney sent a letter saying that -- >> he has a story to tell. >> he has a story to tell. we've stressed tonight i think very appropriately so that mike flynn isn't guilty of anything yet, but as jim sciutto said, there is the turkey lobbying, which he did not report until later. retroactively. there are the allegations that he wanted to physically remove gulen, this turkish cleric from the country. which seems insane. we know he was fired from the white house because he was discussing apparently russian sanctions, which would be a violation of the logan act, which is never prosecuted, but still. and then there is that speech in russia. so you talk about flipping this guy, squeezing flynn, i mean -- and his son was chief of staff
and top aide. so he was with him in a lot of these occasions. i mean, he seems very vulnerable to me. >> just on the campaign, though, how close -- flynn travelled with the -- with candidate trump. they were very close on the campaign, weren't they? >> from the convention on he travelled quite a bit with the president. but i think one of the things with this since there isn't a big bombshell or new piece of news coming out today, i don't think this is something that will continue popping up in the press every single day. even the fact that today on the one-year anniversary of president trump winning, the fact that we're talking about this russia cloud, we're not talking about a 4.1% unemployment rate or record high stock market. this starts to get in the way of pushing the agenda forward and getting things done. i think what's going to be the challenge for the white house is to be able to stay focussed on what the president said he was going to go and do, and not get distracted by this. you take an example of something being a perfect example of
something that doesn't affect the white house, they have to stay focused on what they're doing. >> is it has to be such a hard thing. people talk about it in the clinton administration, they were able to do that. i can't imagine working under that. >> not only is it a hard thing under these circumstances with the investigation, they have larger political circumstances they're dealing with, too. you know, they've got a congress they're wrestling with every day. they've got an american people who are increasingly confident in the economy but decreasingly confident in the white house, which is unheard of. they're trying to get their arms around more problems than the investigation. >> we need to get a quick break in. when we come back, the president may have been overseas, but his presence was felt yesterday in the polls. we'll talk about how big a factor he might have been next.
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fomy doctor recommended ibgard. abdominal pain and bloating. now i'm in control of my ibs. nonprescription ibgard- calms the angry gut. democrats won big in statewide elections last night, capturing the governor's office in new jersey and virginia. plus picking up local seats across the country. now a virginia gop congressman was saying it was at least in part a referendum on the trump presidency. new cnn polling shows growing disenchantment with the president. their confidence in him since he took office has decreased. down from 48% back in april and 68% of americans do not trust most of what they hear from the
white house according to this poll. here is my conversation with republican congressman scott taylor from earlier today. congressman, how much do you believe that last night's results in virginia were a referendum on the trump presidency? >> well, i think that, you know, certainly there are other factors involved. of course you could argue, you know, with the gillespie campaign that they fell short in some areas and stuff like that, but i certainly think the overwhelming thing that was going on was the energy on the democrat side and that's definitely a referendum on the president. we said the same thing when governor bob mcdonald won in 2009, it was a referendum on president obama. if we want to be intellectually consistent, this was as well. >> what the president has said is that though gillespie worked hard that he didn't embrace the president. he didn't embrace the president's ideas and what the president stands for. you just don't buy that? >> with all due respect to the president, who i support, if i agree with him i say if, if i don't, i don't.
or i say it. i don't agree with that at all. i'm from virginia. i know the precincts. i know the candidates that were there. when you look at the exit polls when you look at how some of the turnout was in some of the areas, there's no question about it the overwhelming theme there was a referendum on the administration and probably more importantly a lot of the divisive rhetoric that really stoked energy and emotion in the the democrat side and, you know, hats off to them, they showed up last night. >> it obviously depends on what state or commonwealth or district people are running in, but how closely would you advise republican candidates to align themselves with the president going forward? i mean, you know, there is this now kind of common refrain or question does trumpism without trump work? >> well, i think it's -- i think more importantly for candidates, and this is whomever republican, democrat, whatever, is to be authentic. and, you know, to speak about what you believe in. the folks that believe what you believe, you know, will follow you or they'll support you. so it's not necessarily about
aligning or not aligning with the president. like i said earlier, if i agree with him, i'll say it, i'll defend him. if i disagree with him, i'll also say that. i think that's more important for republicans, and whomever, in their district when they're communicating with people. >> do you think it came off as false gillespie towards the end of his campaign he seemed to embrace some of the cultural issues that he perhaps had not really embraced earlier on? did that come off as inauthentic? >> well, possibly. you know, look, i don't think that those cultural issues that specifically, you know, the racism ones and some of the things that were happening in virginia that i was seeing, quite frankly, on both sides. i think that's bad for the people of virginia. i think it's bad for the country. i think that leaders should unite people around a purpose and move forward. you know, i'm certainly someone who believes in addition in politics and not subtraction. i was very unhappy with the tone and the rhetoric, quite frankly, that i believe is bad for the future of this state, this commonwealth of virginia and
also the country. >> had -- i mean i guess the reverse is the question, had gillespie, you know, embraced the president more directly, had the president campaigned with him, had he gone golfing with the president or whatever it may be, would that have made a difference? >> i don't believe so. >> the political geography obviously in both new jersey and virginia, i mean, it wasn't tilted in republicans' favor last night. is there a risk in reading too much into these results, the possibility that the republican party could overcorrect somehow? >> i believe that the republican party could overcorrect based on the results last night. i believe that the democratic party could overcorrect based on the results last night. i think that, you know, politics is local. it is important. there are times where things are out of your control, like these waves, if you will, but it's important to not read too much into it. 2018 is being talked about a lot. obviously that's a long ways away in politics as you very well know. i believe that there were certainly lessons learned,
certainly some reflection that should go on within my own party and even within myself, right, and certainly within the president. i think it's important for republicans to see the lessons learned in last night's election and move forward. >> congressman taylor, appreciate your time, thank you. >> thank you. up next, virginia democratic senator mark warner weighs in on last night's big winners and losers. can you fit in there? i got this... that's the new man, huh? yup. getting kinda' close to my ride. wow... now, that's how you make a first impression. they're going to love you... that's ford, america's best-selling brand. hurry in today for 0% financing for 72 months across the full line of ford cars, trucks and suvs! and just announced...get 0% apr for 72 months plus $1000 cash back! take advantage of these exclusive holiday offers
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today marks the anniversary of the 2016 presidential election. the excitement after president trump's victory 12 months ago did not help the republican party last night. democrats swept governor's races in virginia and new jersey. i asked virginia senator warning warner for his take. here is part of that conversation. i'm wondering what your feelings are after the results in virginia last night? >> listen, last night was a great victory. not only did we win the governor's race, a clean sweep of all of our statewide elected officials, but we also picked up 16 sites in our 100-member house of delegates. and i think two reasons, one, you know, virginia democrats don't spend all of their time feuding the way sometimes some of the national democrats have. we talk about jobs and health care and education.
and also i think there was a real pushback against the kind of policies that were -- have been advocated, the divisive policies advocated by the president that the republican candidates embraced in whole. i hope it will be in effect a warning shot across the bow amongst a number of republicans. because i think our country is better if we've got two strong centrist parties to move away from some of these very divisive rhetoric and tactics of mr. trump. >> you have no doubt that last night was a repudiation and a repudiation of the president's policies? >> listen, i saw crowds not just in the suburban area, but in rural virginia turn out in the days before the election that i hasn't seen since 2001. i saw a part where democratic candidates did better than they've done in decades.
what i heard constantly was, one, they wanted me foto finishy job in terms of of this investigation and get the truth out about russia, but two, they were very concerned about the kind of divisiveness that the president seems to tweet out on a regular basis. >> you know, jason, some of the president's supporters said the problem was ed gillespie did not embrace the president enough. do you ascribe to that? >> well, i think ed gillespie forgot to set his line up yesterday. that was quite a big shellacking. i don't think it was so much a failure to embrace the president. i think it was a failure to embrace these economic populist ideals that the president ran on and won. when you look at the trump voter, there isn't a perfect overlap with the typical republican primary voter. there are millions of democrats and independents and different people, nontraditional people that the president brought to the table and got on board. they weren't enthusiastic about ed gillespie. yes, ed gillespie got a lot of republican votes, but he failed
to excite and motivate these voters to come out and do it. i think this is a wake-up call for the republicans, the republicans on capitol hill, to make sure they're fighting for this economic agenda. i'd say this to van and jen before they get too cocky after last night's -- the fact that republicans won a few state elections. think you're going to start hearing a lot more about the threat of speaker nancy pelosi and there is nothing that will go and turn out republicans and trump voters like the possibility of that happening. >> van? >> you talk about excitement. and what i think you're going to see is even more exciting is just donald trump's consistently picking on people, retriggering, retraumatizing people. i've never seen this much upset among liberals and progressives. you have liberals and progressives who wake up every day upset. they are just looking at the calender waiting for an opportunity to come flooding down to vote to send a message to donald trump. you are correct, there is a economic message that donald
trump has that is a very good message if you're concerned about working folks, but it is marbled in with all this toxic, racially divisive stuff and a lot of personal insult invective, every tweet now i think is just stacking up energy that is going to come pouring out with midterm elections. >> so let me ask you, these liberal voters, did they not have the same fervor to turn out and vote for hillary clinton last year? >> you know what's very interesting, this is something i think maybe you guys don't understand. there were people who were really progressives, independents, democrats, were really lukewarm on hillary clinton. but they weren't sure on donald trump. they said donald trump says terrible stuff, maybe he's joking. maybe he can't win. maybe when he gets there, he's going to get better. now we know what we're dealing with. you can pick this product or not. you're going to have people who maybe all they did was vote, but
they didn't register. they're going to come out in large numbers. >> jen, isn't it a mistake for democrats to basically be the party against donald trump? what are they for? >> yes, absolutely. i think we can sell berate and have a moment which we haven't had in quite some time to feel like the party came together, progressives and centrists came together. >> is that what you were doing today? >> yes. we were partying. >> all day. every day. >> however, i think the lesson we should not learn is that we can just run against trump and that we can just be anti-trump and that's going to win us back the house and win us back the presidency. one of the -- the biggest issue last night was health care for voters. and northam won those voters by an overwhelming majority because they support health care and they want to have access to health care. that is a lesson for democrats. that's not an issue we need to run away from. we haven't been for awhile. but he was also a candidate who very much fit the district. he did not meet all of the litmus tests that progressives had. he fit the state, i should say, not the district.
>> democrats learned that lesson. that's a very good point. here you have a guy who voted for george bush once or twice, temperamentally comes across as moderate. wins this big race in virginia. will black lives matter let other candidates like that -- will the berniecrats are whatever, they will they allow other northams to win nominations? >> there are so many people running across the country as democrats. we don't know who is going to come out of those races, but they need to come together at the end of the day. and it feels really good to win. and i think that's what people felt last night. >> scott, how do you feel? >> i think van made a great point about democrats galvanizing in opposition to something and it reminds me of the feelings republicans had in 2010 after barack obama got elected president. there were a lot of different viewpoints in the republican party but everybody agreed on one thing, we've got to go out and win these elections as a repudiation of obama winning in 2008. sometimes having something to organize around, i don't like this person, can bring an entire party together, even if there are a lot of wings -- >> health care was also a huge
factor in 2012, too. >> especially though when you have someone like tom perriello, who was a progressive, who lost in that primary and came out and worked just as hard to elect his rival, what you're going to see is democrats are going to fight in the primary and come together in the general. and that didn't happen last night. coming up, new allegations that harvey weinstein hired former israeli intelligence officers to investigate and try to silence some of his accusers. extraordinary reporting from ronan farrow. ronan joins me next. whoooo.
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sexual assault and harassment allegations against harvey weinstein keep piling up and now we're getting the extraordinary lengths that he went to to keep them from getting out. in an article in new yorker, ronan farrow reports that weinstein hired detectives and former israeli intelligence officers to track not only the women accusing him, but also the
journalists trying to report it. according to farrow's reporting, they assumed fake identities in some cases to get close to accusers and journalists and made secret recordings and reported back. they also put together psychological profiles on dozens of people trying to dig up dirt on them. according to farrow's reporting, weinstein monitored all of this personally. ronan farrow joins me. incredible job reporting on all of this. can you just explain some of the length harvey weinstein would go to to monitor people who were potentially going to make accusations against him and to essentially silence him? >> that's really the headline here, right? he went so far. i also think this opens a window into how far a lot of powerful people can go if they are this bent on stopping allegations against them. in wieinsteiweinstein's case, sg as rose mcgowan tweeted heavily implying he raped her, as other woman started to talk to me and other reports, he hired a whole array of private security firms. these aren't a gum shoe in a run down apartment. these are elite international organizations that specialize in creating front companies,
creating false identities and those companies went to work using those kinds of false identities to insinuate themselves into the lives he was targeting. >> one of the companies you write about is called black cube which is apparently former mossad agents from israel and others. the level of detail of, i mean, how far they would go, you know, setting up front companies, posing as women's rights advocates in order to meet with rose mcgowan, they were launching intelligence operations. >> this was aggressive human intelligence gat erg. s in case of rose mcgowan, two separate agents met with her. >> befriended her really. >> really became a friend. rose mcgowan was shocked to find out this woman diana phillip of ruben capital partners was a fictional identity lying to her all of that time and surreptitiously recording audio
of al all of their conversations and sending it back to her alleged attacker. >> and they were also reaching out to journalists. >> that's another dimension for people to understand. anyone reporting on that issue facing this kind of retaliation. a reporter at "new york" magazine who actually was targeted in a similar human intelligence capacity by this woman using a completely different identity meeting with him with an emotional story suggesting she had an allegation against harvey weinstein. >> she was actually posing possibly as a victim of harvey weinstein? >> exactly right. at the same time harvey weinstein was aggressively going after that journalist's editor, adam moss of "new york" magazine, and repeating to moss very specific questions their publication secretly they thought was asking to sources. >> the other thing that's interesting about this is the involvement of david boies, probably best know as arguing the merit of the pro-equality case. >> liberal, lawyer. >> he was working for harvey
weinstein and hired this firm. many people will hire an intelligence firm through an attorney because i guess supposedly that has attorney/client privilege automatically. >> the theory is if the investigative material is >> the theory is, if it's submitted through an attorney, it can't be submitted in court because of privilege issues. certainly, i hope after this, people take a hard look as to whether these kinds of activities should be able to be secret. >> so on the one hand, his firm is represented in "the new york times." the other hand, he's the one organizing or at least fronting this effort with this intelligence firm against "the new york times." >> his signature is on the contracts. the money went through his firm. and look, he told us this was a mistake, but he said it wouldn't have been averse to "the times" interest if they submitted information and did their reporting on this that disproved
some of these allegations. obviously, "the new york times" has disagreed with this and fired that firm in the last 24 hours. >> i talked to a number of people who have a long history in hollywood. they have all talked about your reporting and said they believe it cannot go back to the way it was. that this has made -- that something fundamental has changed, that it can never return to the way it was. do you think that's truesome >> i would like to believe that. that will depend on the changes we make to our society and to the restrictions on these kinds of activities. all over the country there are states looking at whether you should be allowed to use none disclosure agreements to buy silence around sexual assault. it will be interesting to see whether that comes to pass. similarly, this aggressive use of human intelligence tactics through law firms, that's something i hope the legal profession takes a serious second look at. >> the willingness of people to come forward, women, men, that seems to have changed. i mean, there does seem to be this ground swell of people coming forward. >> vastly.
i mean, look, i began to talk to women about coming forward with the most difficult story of their life in many cases at a time when already women had come forward against bill cosby, women had come forward against roger ailes. there had been by then a body of reporting that at least showed to these women as scared as they were and justifiably so that this could be done. and that has changed everything and i think continues to change these. >> again, incredible reporting and great "the new yorker" went forward with this. and i urge everyone to read the articles. >> thank you so much, anderson. >> as we mentioned, more and more reports of sexual harassment and assault by powerful men have come forward in the last year. tune in tomorrow night. tipping point, sexual harassment in america. up next, a texas town devastated. eight members of one family were among those killed in the worst church shooting in american history. the pastor tells his story when we continue. when i was a navy seal,
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vice president mike pence today met with victim family members and survivors from a shooting at a church in sutherland, texas. he also attended a prayer service tonight. here's some of what he said. >> i know the cherished names of the fallen will live on forever in the hearts of all who knew them, but let me assure you their names will also be enshrined in the hearts of every american forever. >> the shooter killed 25 people
devastating the small town of sutherland springs. eight members of one family were killed. the impossible task of informing surviving family members fell to the pastor of a nearby church. >> reporter: in family photos the holcombes look as close-knit as a family gets. dressing up as pirates during thanksgiving holidays. grandkids climbing up and sliding down the water slide their grandfather brian got for them at easter. pastor mike clements knew the family well. over the years a number of hole comes have attended his baptist church in the nearby town. >> we'd just crack up, tell stories, jokes, have fun. kid around, push on each other. just have fun. just enjoy life. god meant for our lives to be enjoyed and to be a joy. and they were that way. >> but in an instant their lives changed forever. eight members of the holcombe family spanning three generations gunned down in church as brian, the
grandfather, was preaching. it was pastor clements who broke the news to brian's parents. >> here we have eight people in a family that left us in one day. there is no script for that. >> there's also no script for how loved ones react to this kind of news. clement says at first the parents grinned and were excited. their deep christian faith assuring them that their family is now in heaven. >> it didn't mean that they didn't hurt and have tremendous pain and loss in their life. but their faith in god is so strong they know what their family is experiencing right now with the lord. and they're excited for them, even though they're sad for themselves because they won't get to see their loved ones. >> reporter: among the dead were four children. the youngest 17-month-old noah celebrating her first birthday here with her father danny, also killed. there was 13-year-old greg,
receiving a new karate belt. his 11-year-old sister emily, flashing a peace sign at the camera. their sister megan, just nine, leaning on their mother crystal, who was two months pregnant, shot and killed as well. and then brian and carla, married for 40 years, who during the summers ran a church camp for kids. >> brian and carla never went on vacation. they spent their time on vacation at camp. they provided this opportunity at the alto freo baptist encampment for my kids and thousands of other little boys and girls so that they could go to a place and jump in the river and learn how to use a bow and arrow. >> and it's the holcombes' faith that led them to already forgive the killer who took so many lives in this community and in their family. >> i can tell you, they've forgiven this man for what he's done, and they would say to him
that god loves him in spite of this tremendous tragedy. that's the kind of people they are. the devil was using that man. it was so wrong, so evil, it was so anti-god. god did not want this to happen at all, but we forgive him. >> anderson, earlier today the vice president met with some of the wounded who are still in the hospital and then he got a briefing from law enforcement after which he said it was bureaucratic failures that are partly to blame for the gunman being to able to get the weapons that he did. he also said they would get to the bottom of why the conviction that the gunman received while he was in the military was not properly reported. anderson. >> thank you very much. that's it for us. thanks for watching 360. time to hand things over to don lemon. cnn tonight starts right now. this is cnn tonight. i'm don lemon.