tv CNN Newsroom With Brooke Baldwin CNN November 21, 2017 11:00am-12:00pm PST
end of robert mugabe and his long reign. >> and the question is what follows more democratic than what mugabe brought to that area. david mckenzie there live on the streets. that's it for us now, "newsroom with brooke baldwin" starts right now. here we go, top of the hour, you're watching cnn, i'm brooke baldwin. thank you for being with me. let's start with that phone call between the world's most watched power players between president trump and vladimir putin. it's not just what they said but it's when they're talking that's important. keep in mind, one day ago, putin had this friendly hug-about with the syrian president brashar al assad this is the syrian leader
who has massacred tens of thousands of his own people. assad and putin presumably discussed the future of syria with assad, despite rebel efforts still in control of his war-ravaged region. president trump talking to president putin after which he had once called a bucher. and who killed more than 80 people. >> it's very disappointing to see. it's disappointing no matter who does it. when you get into the gases, especially that form, it's vicious and violent. and everybody in this room saw it all too many times over the last three or four days, young children dying. babies dying. fathers holding children in their arms that were dead. dead children. there can't be a worse sight, and it shouldn't about allowed. that's a butcher. that's a butcher. >> that's a butcher, he says, to
the white house we go. to my colleague aabby philip. what do you know. >> reporter: it's been an hour, that they talked only the phone the white house says. mostly about syria which is such a huge issue in this relationship between the u.s. and russia. mostly because vladimir putin, as you saw in that photograph is the most important and powerful ally the syrian regime of bashar al assad. this kims a day after vladimir putin says that he spoke to assad about a political transition for the future of syria. for perhaps bringing an end to that country's very long civil war. that's an issue that the white house is very much engaged in. and interested in. and we've heard from president trump for quite some time that he wants russia to play a constructive role in that relationship. still not hearing much more beyond that from the white house. i think both sides of this conversation saying that they touched on russia. they touched on other hot spots
like north korea and other parts of the world where there are mutual interests. yesterday, on north korea, the president put north korea back on that state sponsored terror list. and russia is still a key player in that relationship as well. the white house hoping to kind of broker a better relationship with vladimir putin. it's too early, though, to see whether or not that is going to bear any fruits at this point, brooke. >> quickly, do we even know of any mention of meddling in the election or not at all? >> reporter: according to the white house, what we've heard from a white house official no issue of election meddling. they spoke about it when they last met face-to-face on the asia trip in vietnam. and that created such a huge controversy. i think it's very likely that the president stuck to the script here, focusing particularly on syria. >> abby, thank you, at the white house this afternoon. for the analysis now, we have
tom countryman, who served as a senior official until forced out by the trump administration. tom, nice to see you again. welcome back. >> thank you, brooke. it's an honor to be here. we wait it out, here we have president trump on the phone with vladimir putin. the day the photos come out of a warm and cozy relationship with assad. we heard assad refer to assad as a butcher. and that russia interfered with the election. the points are overwhelming. >> that's absolutely correct, of course any contact between president trump and president putin occurs under the cloud under the recently documented web of context that the trump campaign had with russian government officials and their surrogates. but in the case of syria, what this demonstrates, i think, this phone call, although i don't know the content any more than you do, but coming just a day
after president putin met with assad, it shows that russia takes the initiative, keeps the initiative. when it comes to syria. now what the man that president described correctly as a buch r butcher, at the same time, it seems that the trump administration is ready to accept him as the long-term leader of syria, at the time when russia is putting all of its backing behind assad, even blocking any independent investigation of chemical weapons use. >> so, what is this conversation about, you know, commitment to the political process? and constitutional reform in syria? at first glance, it seems maybe all three can agree, but what do you really believe? >> well, it's certainly possible to have a discussion about constitutional reform in syria. i think what makes it
exceedingly difficult to get all parties in syria behind it, is the russian insistence that president assad remain as president, seemingly forever, similar to what president putin expects to be normal. that's not acceptable. to the other political groups in syria. and if the united states doesn't make an effort to push russia away from that position, away from that unblinking support of mr. assad, it's hard to see how there is a solution that actually ends the violence. >> let me ask you, tom, also, this is from the state department, the story there, this dozen or so employees taking this unusual ten of formally accusing the secretary of state of breaking this federal law which is designed from foreign countries enlisting child soldiers. how significant is this? >> well, i'm not familiar enough
with the law to be able to comment whether or not they're correct. it is clear and it has been clear previously that secretary tillerson did not accept the recommendation of many senior advisers, that he lists those specific countries, afghanistan, myanmar, others, of being in violation of the law that prohibits foreign militaries from hiring soldiers under the age of 16. it is an appropriate use of the so-called dissent channel in the justice department. >> explain that for me. >> the dissent channel is something that's existed in the state department since the vietnam war. and it's meant to give a way for officials in the state department to communicate privately, confidentially, to the secretary of state about their disagreement with any particular aspect of u.s. foreign policy. it is a channel that has served
american interests well. but however, i think it's unfortunate when those private messages intended to stay confidential come out in the press. >> which is precisely what's happened with this accusal of the secretary of state. >> yes. >> tom, let me ask you just a little bit about this breaking news into cnn. the u.s. issuing brand-new sanctions against north korea. targeting trading and shipping companies. you know, the story, just 24 hours ago, the president designated the rogge natiue nat agency a terror sponsor. how do these two things change the game here? or do they not? >> well, i support what is the administration's declared policy of maximum pressure in engagement with north korea. we've seen maximum pressure. it's a good idea to put on additional sanctions that target shipping and trading firms connected with north korea.
i haven't seen the maximum engagement. instead, i've seen the president undercut secretary tillerson's efforts at engagement. the new designation, or redesignation of north korea as a state sponsor of terrorism is a form of pressure. but it is, i think, based on the wrong premise. if you call every bit of news you don't like fake news, then it's easy to call everybody that you don't like a state sponsor of terrorism. but there's no new evidence or additional evidence that justifies that. and it simply conflates terrorism with anything that we don't like. so, i think it's not an appropriate use of the law and of the president's power. we have other means to keep up sanctions and other pressure on north korea. what we need to do is to actually engage north korea, to find a way to begin what will certainly be a very long and
difficult dialogue. >> real perspective, we go back to otto warmbier's parents who sat with me not even a month ago and talked about the torture their son endured and they were absolutely calling for north korea to be put back on this list. they would applaud the president. >> i understand. >> tom countryman, always a pleasure. thank you so much. >> thank you. we do have more breaking news, swift action by cbs news and pbs, one day after the sexual harassment allegations came to light against veteran journalist charlie rose. both networks now terminating the relationship with rose. we have more on that. and the fallout today. also ahead -- nearly 60,000 haitians who left for the u.s., after that devastating earthquake in 2010 have been put on notice. why they're being told their time here in america is almost up. you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin.
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breaking news here, a sexual harassment scandal has just cost a legendary tv journalist at least two of his jobs. cbs and pbs have fired charlie rose following damning allegations that he sexually harassed at least eight women. cbs sent this memo to staffers today announcing the telleration and in part it reads, a short time ago we terminated charlie rose's employment with cbs news effectively immediately. this followed the revelation yesterday of extremely disturbing and intolerable behavior said to have revolved around this pbs program. it hasn't even been an entire 24 hours since "the washington post" story broke.
the accusations range from the '90s to as recently as 2011. they include charlie rose walking around naked, groping and lewd phone calls detailing his sexual fantasies. cbs initially suspended rose prompting his co-host to start their show this morning, right out of the gate, addressing those allegations. and these ladies made it clear they were not giving charlie rose a pass. >> let me be very clear. there is no excuse for this alleged behavior. it is systematic and pervasive. women cannot achieve equality in the workplace or in society until there is a reckoning. >> really, i'm still reeling. i got 1 hour and 42 minutes of sleep last night. both my son and my daughter called me. oprah called me and said are you okay. i am not okay. i really applaud the women, despite the friendship, he doesn't get a pass because i can't stop thinking about the
anguish of these women. what happened to heir dignity, what happened to their bodies and what happened to maybe even their careers. >> let me bring in one of the "washington post" reporters who broke the story wide open, she is amy briton, amy, welcome. >> thank you for having me. >> so charlie rose has been fired not a day after you broke the story ending the career of this journalist. what have you been hearing? what's been going on at the scene in the last 24 hours? >> it's been a whirlwind in the last 20 hours. i can tell you before the publication of our story, we gave mr. rose 24 hours advance notice of every single allegation that was going to be included in the story and offered him an attempt to respond to each and every one of those allegations. we did not receive a statement until yesterday afternoon. so, from that point on, i mean, the aftermath was immediate.
first we heard the reaction from ps pbs, that they were suspending the distribution of the show. then we heard from bloomberg and after last night, it was a suspension by cbs. like many others today, i was hearing the news at the same time as just about everyone else, that he had been fired by cbs. >> amy, i want to get to part of his statement in a second. but first, since you all posted the story yesterday afternoon, have you gotten other phone calls from other women? >> i have. unfortunately, i would say within an hour after the story was published, i heard had e-mails in my inbox from women who said they had similar disturbing encounters with him. we are going through those e-mails now. and we are reaching out to the individuals who have reached out to us and we're going to be responding to them. and we're going to be doing more reporting. >> let me take everyone to part of charlie rose's statement where he said in part i do not believe that all of these
allegations are accurate. i always felt that i was pursuing shared feelings even though i now realize i was mistaken. it almost says, amy, he's openly saying he thought some of these women were interested in him. >> that seems to be the suggestion from his statement. i can tell you from numerous conversations with the women who are named in the piece and unnamed in the piece, that none of them viewed these as any way as consensual encounters. the conduct by him, the physical contact, the phone calls, the nudity, it was unwanted. >> watching gayle and norah speak at the top of the show where charlie rose was that important third piece. almost like there was that empty seat, like they had to acknowledge what had happened from their heart and how conflicting. how upsetting and how difficult this has been for them and of
course the women you that write about. what did you make of how they handled it? >> well, i woke up this morning actually and immediately turned on the tv. and i had filmed a segment last night. and i was eager to see how they were going to proceed with it. i know this was an individual employed by their network who they sat there each and every morning. i don't want to place a value judgment on their statements as a viewer, i was struck by the moment. it seems to be a remarkable moment especially when they encouraged other women to come forward and speak forward, even if they were afraid. >> amy, in reading your piece and reading it over again, one of my biggest takeaways, once again, no matter the industry, we see this enabling. it's this executive producer of charlie rose who admits for years she heard from these women. she shrugged these women off.
she failed to do anything about it. she helped him get away with this and victimize more people for decades. and she is a woman. >> and i can just tell you what we learned from our reporting is that numerous women who worked for charlie rose initially felt reassured by the presence of yvette vega who was his longtime executive producer they felt she was a powerful woman and they admired her. they viewed her as a role model and some of them told us that they felt like she did not do anything about the behavior. and they felt like she was aware of it. two women told us specifically that they reported the behavior to her and that nothing happened about it. >> amy brittin with "the
washington post," thank you so much. >> thank you for having me. >> the president's message to nearly 60,000 haitians here in the united states, get ready to leave. why the administration says they're sending them back home seven years after that deadly earthquake. and a mystery deepens today. what exactly what happened to these two border patrol agents. the unanswered questions after one was killed and another serious in a hospital. was this ambush? were these agents targeted? [vo] quickbooks introduces rodney. he has a new business teaching lessons. rodney wanted to know how his business was doing... ...so he got quickbooks. it organizes all his accounts, so he can see his bottom line. ahhh...that's a profit. know where you stand instantly. visit quickbooks-dot-com. they always refer to me as master sergeant.
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new details as to what happened to rogelio martinez, the border patrol agent, died sunday after suffering what the fbi said was major traumatic head injuries. he and his partner were responding to some activity when found 12 miles east of town of van horn. the partner is one who called for help. and also severely wounded. >> we lot a border patrol officer just yesterday and another one was brutally beaten and badly, badly hurt. looks like he'll make it. but very, very badly hurt. >> in fact, several texas officials refer to some kind of attack on these two agents. but the local sheriff told "the dallas morning news" quote, the
injuries to martinez, after talking to his doctors were consistent with a fall. very consistent with a fall. why is the other guy hurt? that's the unknown, what happened to him. that's the local sheriff. as searching for answers, many are grieving for rogelio martinez who reportedly has an 11-year-old son. >> the guy just wanted to help people, help the world and tried to make a difference. he was a living person. >> i hope he rests in peace. i love him. >> with me now, branden judd, the president of national border patrol council. thank you for being here with me. i'm sorry for what happened to these agents. you can tell me what you know about martinez and how he was found. because it's my understanding you believe he an his partner were ambushed? >> i do. and the facts are consistent with an ambush.
agent martinez was looking for what we call sign or footprints in the ground. when he came across them, he radioed in that he was going to get in his vehicle and start what we call pushing the sign or following the footprints. now, this was at night. he would have had his flash light out and looking for that sign and trying to follow that sign. and when you do that, you're at a disadvantage, because those individuals that are hiding, they're going to a specific spot to be picked up by vehicles. they're hiding. they can see you coming. and what i think what -- i think that what the facts will show that as he approached them, they jumped out and ambushed him. and then he also ambushed his partner because they would have also seen him coming as well. >> when you say a sign, looking for footprints for people who don't know, it's my understanding this particular area is a known corridor for people with a lot of marijuana shoved in backpacks, right? trying to take it over the
border, so it's these agents who are on patrol, am i right? >> that is correct is correct. this is a known drug smuggling corridor. and these are things that we encounter on a daily basis. and these are the dangers that we face. >> so, what kind of condition -- what sort of details do you know about how martinez was found, injuries and the like? >> from the agents in the field, they said that it was a horrendous scene. they said that his head was bleeding profusely. there was blood all over the place. that there were a lot of injuries to his head. now, i find it interesting that the sheriff says that -- >> it was a fall. >> that the injuries indicate a fall. if you look at the culvert that supposedly he would have fallen from, that's just not true. that culvert is only about nine feet high. it's got a sandy bottom so there would be nothing that would you'd fall on to that would cause these injuries.
and for two experienced agents to fall off a culvert, one right after another is just highly unlikely. what is a lot more likely is exactly what the agent was looking for, he radioed in that he was out on foot and going to be looking for these bodies. i believe he was ambushed. the facts will bear that out. >> what about the partner who is in the hospital in serious condition, what is he saying? >> he has not regained his memory yet, as far as i know. and that's the most up to date information was from this morning that i have, is that he's still not regained his memory. however, he's doing much better and i believe it's expected that he will get his memory out. the problem is whether or not he actually saw something so his injury is in the back of the head. they could have come up behind him and hit him in the back of the head and he could have lost consciousness immediately. what i do know agent rogelio
martinez, when he found him he was ununconscious, and they nev regained consciousness until he succumbed to his injuries. >> we're waiting for a conference at the top of the hour. the president, border patrol officer killed at southern border another badly hurt. we will seek out and bring to justice those responsible. we will and must build the wall. >> brandon, do you approve of the president using this strategy to push for a wall? >> well, i absolutely do believe we need a barrier in strategic locations which is exactly what we've been saying from the very beginning. i think you that have to -- as the president of the united states, i think you have to illustrate examples of why a wall would be needed. so, i absolutely approve of his tweet saying this is an example that shows why we need a wall. what i think is interesting, the
secure border act, you know democrats and republicans alike are all for the secure border act. and what is being proposed as far as a wall. we're talking about barriers in strategic locations. we're not talk about a great wall of the united states, 2,000 miles extending down to texas. what we're talking about, we're talking about strategic locations where we as agents myself, we can dictate where illegal border processes take place which allows us to be safer and effective in securing our border. >> brandon judd, thank you for your time. president of the national security council. we'll take that news conference at the top. hour. appreciate you. the trump administration giving this message to thousands of haitians who fled to the u.s. after a devastating earthquake. officials placing a date on the immigrants' temporary status. we'll discuss that and the ramifications.
also ahead, one of the most bizarre interviews we've seen in a while, the father of one the of the released basketball players released from china comes on cnn. we'll talk to former coach steve lavin to react to that. topped steak & twisted potatoes at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.
which is the only egg goody enough for my family? only eggland's best. better taste. better nutrition. better eggs. former trump campaign official rick gates was in court today, he and former chair paul n manafort are both under arrest. that hasn't stopped gates asking for repeated requests for leniency, including asking the judge if he could leave his house for thanksgiving. let's go for the update from the
judge? can they have their thanksgiving or no? >> yeah, small victory for the defense team, as you said, brooke, they've been fighting, trying to get these two men out of their homes. they've been in house arrest since october 30th, since they surrendered to the fbi. a little victory here, the judge said the two men could spend time with their family at thanksgiving. probably saturday, they can be back in their homes. doesn't mean they can be wherever they want. it's very limited where they request to go. and they'll still be monitored electronically and gps. with the electronic bracelets, monitored. no alcohol, no wine for them. they can enjoy the time with their family, but they can't drink, the judge said. >> okay, turkey, but no wine. got you, shimon, thank you very much. the senate candidate denying the allegations against him.
more on roy moore's campaign, a news conference, we're being told he responds to accusations. and the bizarre war of words, the father of one of the ucla basketball players freed by china, refusing to thank the president for his efforts. and then he decided to appear on cnn and -- well -- well, we'll play it for you. we'll be right back. give ancestrydna, the only dna test that can trace your origins to over 150 ethnic regions. save 20% for the holidays at ancestrydna.com.
that their time is almost up. homeland security officials say they will not renew the temporary status that has allowed them to remain here since an earthquake devastated their country which 2010. they have 11 months. let's talk about it jeanpierre, the advocate of haitian rights and scott jennings, a former special assistant to president george w. bush. welcome to all of you corinne, starting with you, we want to draw down on the why. why this is happening. first when you heard about this, how did you feel? >> it was devastating, brooke, it's just a cruel decision by the trump administration. i just don't understand why they would decide to do this, but if you think about it, deep down, if you think about it, it's
pretty teaeasy to figure out th logic behind this. let me just say, brooke, we're a country, nation of immigrants, the moment we forget about that, we lose our identity as a nation. what is happening right now, the trump administration is pl placating that red meat slinging just to say they did this because there's no reason to do this. the haitian government has been very clear about this, that please -- we cannot absurd 60,000 people currently because the infrastructure after this hurricane was absolutely decimated. this is not something they can take on right now. why do this? did the trump administration send anyone to haiti to actually see what's going on there? no, absolutely not. is this why what they're doing is cruel, inhumane and unnecessary. >> let me add to that, scott, you heard karine's obviously,
this is personal for her, but just from a logistical standpoint, removing 60,000 people, to a country that is not prepared to take them. haiti is the poorest country in the hemisphere. they have jobs here. they have lives here. how does this not create problems for people? >> it does create problems for people. there are 16,000 people that have already been granted permanent status in the united states. of that 60,000, several thousand are going to be able to stay in the united states. this strikes me as another issue that the trump administration inherited that congress could easily step in and fix. the law is the law. and the executive branch has to follow the law as written. it strikes me here, as it did on daca, that the trump administration is trying to do its best to follow existing u.s. law. but it may be that the existing law didn't anticipate a situation like we have in haiti. i would implore the congress to
step isn't here to something that is happening in our hemisphere. that's the thing about a superpower. you want our own backyard to be free. that's the issue in haiti. i think the executive branch is doing what it thinks it needs do based on current law. there's a role to be played here. i read that members of congress from florida specifically do not agree with the decision. >> maybe this is another issue, that he passes out to congress, karine, just to push you a little bit, isn't it fair -- this was a temporary policy, is it fair for the trump administration to challenge something when they knew all of these haitian immigrants were coming to this country for a finite period of time, or so they thought? >> i think what would be fair if the trump administration decided to continue the temporary status and also at the same time, he has control of the house and senate and republicans and
control for good comprehensive immigration reform legislation. there's no need to do this. there's no need to upend people's lives. this is caused dramatic feels for people. there are people who have to figure out custody for their children and pay immigration lawyers, or hopefully, there are pro bono lawyers 0 thought. this is going to change people's lives. they're not an economic threat. they're not criminals, they're good talented educated people actually giving back to their community. >> karine and scott, appreciate your voices. who knows if that will be passed to congress with that deadline 2019. >> thank you. moments from now, the roy moore campaign will speak out involving the sexual assault embattled candidate. the last time, they demanded a
yearbook from one of his accusers. we shall see what happens this time. thanks for the ride-along, captain! i've never been in one of these before, even though geico has been- ohhh. ooh ohh here we go, here we go. you got cut off there, what were you saying? oooo. oh no no. maybe that geico has been proudly serving the military for over 75 years? is that what you wanted to say? mhmmm. i have to say, you seemed a lot chattier on tv. geico. proudly serving the military for over 75 years. you ok back there, buddy?
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this war of words between president trump and this outspoken father of ucla basketball player arrested in china for shop lifting now taking a bizarre turn. lavar ball, known for speaking his mind says he's not in a feud with the president, but also, that he's not about to give trump for release of his son and two other ucla players from detention in china. here's part of the cnn interview that delivered plenty of shock
and awe. >> did you think that the president -- >> listen very slowly, carefully. >> i'm trying. >> did he help the boys get out? i don't know. i don't know. >> why do you -- >> if i was going to thank somebody, i'd thank president xi. >> president xi. >> from china. he's the head, the president in china. >> true. he said he helped get them out of china. >> okay, if he paid for the money to put up, whatever we needed to do i would say thank you. did he do that? >> so, that's if he doesn't put up bail for the boys he doesn't deserve thanks? come on. >> no, if he helped i would say thank you. >> he says he spoke stot president of china and that that was relayed to you and the boys. >> okay. anybody who speaks to the president, i should thank anybody who speaks to the president? >> no, but this is the president of the united states who spoke to the chinese president. that's not just anybody. you know what kind of power he has. i don't get what you're hiding
from this. i don't get why you're ducking this, to be honest with you. >> if i was ducking this i wouldn't be here talking to you. >> lavar ball, were you there, but you don't know -- >> i was there. id do know that. >> do you think the president helped? >> do i think the president helped? i don't know. >> i think you're making it more difficult -- >> you're making this more difficult. lavar didn't say thank you to the president. >> you didn't? >> so that makes me a bad person? >> no. >> just swim on this? did you thank the doctor for bringing you into the this world? >> lavar ball, the best to you and your family for thanksgiving. the best to your boys and the best to your wife as well. >> hey, you have a great thanksgiving. and i've got a message for you. >> what is it? >> tell donald trump to have a great thanksgiving because big baller is.
>> i mean, there's tv and there's tv, so, let's talk about that. i have steve lavin with me. he's a former basketball coach at ucla. you and i were watching that. you saw that, it went on and on. >> a little abbott and costello. >> a little bit. they had a thing, cuomo and lavar. what was your response just watching it? >> well, it's entertaining. >> is this something we should be entertained by? >> well, i think the issue itself in terms of what triggered and what led to the situation with ucla players obviously being in china. and, you know, what we had to do to make sure they got back safely to their country. that's serious business. lavar ball, that exchange there, to me, is entertaining. because he has a little bit of
bill zack, a little barn th bar bailey, and even steve jobs. in a different context, we'd be applauding lavar ball. probably advertising classes some day across the country are going to be studying, probably a chapter on lavar ball and this run he's had. >> i don't know if i'd go that far, steve. you're a coach of ucla. if you were coach currently and all of a sudden you're thrust into this geopolitical situation, would you be saying to somebody at the school, could we get a pull aside with his father and tell him to ixnay with the president, would you have that chat? >> i think for starters, if you have a rapport with a parent that starts with recruiting and you develop the trust and communication with each other,
it wouldn't be something to pull them aside. hopefully we have -- >> a conversation. >> -- a conversation, to be able to communicate in a gentlemanly way. >> so, you would maybe have that conversation. have you ever -- as a coach, would you let it go, or would you -- >> well, i think it's a balance. it's a delicate balance. because if you start trying to control things you really don't have control over, then that in turn begins to affect things you do have control over which is responsibility on a daily basis of coaching your team, preparing them for upcoming games. for recruiting, fund-raising and whatnot. so at the same time, i think there is a way to communicate with parents in an effective manner and to be able to learn from the situation. so there would be dialogue and communication going on. >> here's my last question because heave heard a couple of coaches taking a stand against the president. kerr, popovich. but the president doesn't ever attack them. why do you thank you is?
>> well, i'm not sure, getting inside the mind of donald trump, you know, in terms of twitter and electronics -- >> some nba players, basketball players on the college level. nfl. but not these coaches. >> well i think, you know, lavar ball has his strategy that's been formed based on his experience and perspective. and i think donald trump has his team of people, himself obviously at the top there that has a certain strategy. you know, he's sending out messages and he has strategic thinking in it terms of the way in which he communicates, electronically, obviously, he's taking it to another level. i wish neal postman was still alive and we could time travel and get their perspective on what's going on in this twitter world and technologies and how far we've come, in certain respects. but also being mindful and the concern that we should have about some of this. >>