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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  January 2, 2018 9:00pm-10:00pm PST

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good evening, this is not how we planned to start the broadcast, but president trump has just tweeted, and it is almost literally a bombshell. responding to kim jong-un, the president tweeted, the and i quote, "north korean leader kim jong-un just stated that the nuclear button is on his desk at all times. will someone from his depleted and food-starved regime please inform him, i, too, have a nuclear button but it's a much bigger and more powerful one than his and my button works." that is real. that actually just happened. cnn's jeff zeleny is at the white house joining us now. jeff, i mean, i guess there's no comment from the white house, because this just happened. >> reporter: there's no comment, but this is the president who is saying this himself, so there's
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really nothing for the white house to comment on. of course, this will be -- we'll ask them if, you know, what specifically provoked this. anderson, this is certainly a dramatic escalation, something we've not seen probably since last fall when the whole rocket man was first coined, but it definitely is coming at a time when many people in this administration certainly at the state department have been trying to use a diplomacy here. now, this certainly blows that out of the water. we've not heard language like this about kim jong-un really for several months. there was definitely a point made by this president, it seemed to sort of dial back the rhetoric a bit. tonight, it certainly starts that all over again, even more so than we've heard. >> jeff, what's so odd about this is that, i mean, correct me if i'm wrong, a couple weeks ago, the secretary of state came out, made a speech in which he said he was ready -- the u.s. was ready to meet any time with north korea, could talk about anything, the size of the table even. they should just meet. a statement you think would have
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been cleared with the white house and through the government. it seems like they quickly backed away from that. >> reporter: they did back away from that at the time, no question about it. there has been this sense of, you know, exactly what message is being sent here about this? the state department and rex tillerson, who is still on the job, many people assume by the beginning of 2018 he may not be. he still is, of course, but he, and the president, have not been on the same page. we even saw extraordinarily the white house essentially responding to or explaining and retracting comments he made about preconditions here, but it did seem, though, as the end of last year was coming together, the administration was more on the same page of north korea. and the president had not, for whatever reason, been provoked like this. this tweet tonight, so different than things we've seen, and i would certainly expect -- expect this to escalate. it's coming at a time when new missile testing is expected to happen, either this week or next week here. so this is going to be front and
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center. many republicans in this town, anderson, wish the president would talk about his agenda, wish the president would talk about things that have to happen in 2018, instead, it's about the -- the tweet we saw tonight. >> yeah. i want to reread that tweet. >> reporter: sure. >> jeff zeleny, thanks very much. i also want to bring in gordon chang author of "nuclear showdown: north korea takes on the world." "north korean leader kim jong-un stated the nuclear button is on the desk at all times. will someone from his depleted and food-starved regime inform him i, too, have a nuclear button, but it's a much bigger and more powerful one than his and my button works." gordon chang, what do you make of this? >> this makes sense on no level, first of all, it makes the president of the united states look like a juvenile. also with regard to north korea, whatever you think your policies should be, you should be talking about the policy and getting a coalition in the world. so, for instance, if he likes sanctions, which i happen to
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like, he should be talking about his september 21st executive order, which is a monumental step forward. instead, we're talking about this. and we're talking about his other tweets. so this is, i think, a big step backward. it makes the u.s. look foolish. it does help us on no level at all. >> i mean, literally he is talking about the size of the nuclear button on his desk. >> yeah. and, of course, we have a much more capable arsenal than kim jong-un has or ever will have, but everybody knows that. so you don't need to say it. matter of fact, when you start saying it, you undercut your own image. you know, this is just elemental diplomacy 101. trump doesn't get it. >> it's interesting, though, the president, you know, and his supporters will say, well, he's exuding strength. he's exhibiting strength. to you, this is not a sign of strength. >> no, of course not. there are so many things that trump could do. and his basic policy on north korea is actually quite sound, but we don't talk about that because we talk about these things. these are the things that catch our attention, and these are the things that other leaders in the world look at. so, no, this doesn't help the
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united states, and it makes us look just ridiculous. >> when you say the policy is sound, i mean, rex tillerson did come out, were you surprised a couple weeks ago when rex tillerson made this pronouncement that, you know, we'd be willing to sit down with them, doesn't matter, you know, where, size of the table, whatever we talk about, it's fine. >> yeah, i wouldn't have said it in those words, but, you know, to the sense of just being open for diplomacy, that's not a bad thing. that's what the chinese want, that's what the russians want. if we want them to help on sanctions, i think we have to pressure them, but we also have to convince them that we are trying to settle this peacefully. and so you don't do things like this. what you do is you say, look, yeah, we're open for diplomacy. now, i tend to think diplomacy will solve this but only after the sanctions have had even more effect. one of the things people don't talk about is that kim jong-un's message on new year's day message sort of hinted that sanctions are really starting to bite his regime. that's an important thing. we should be talking about that because that is the way to a peaceful settlement. if we can convince kim that he
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has no choice, he doesn't have money to launch missiles or detonate nukes, that's important. trump can actually get countries around the world to sign on if they're not talking about button size. >> did it seem -- does it seem to you that north korea is trying to reach out to south korea? there was an article in the "times" today talking about maybe kim jong-un is trying to drive a wedge between the u.s. and south korea. >> yeah, i mean, he's trying to drive the wedge between the two allies. he needs to do that because he believes, kim jong-un believes that in order to save his regime, you know, people say, oh, he just wants to, you know, stay in power. in order to stay in power, he needs to take over south korea because right now you have two koreas side by side, one rich, one poor. that's completely unsustainable. kim jong-un knows that. and so what he's trying to do is get the u.s. off the peninsula so he can intimidate south korea. the other thing he's trying to do, anderson, is convince the chinese and the russians that kim is reasonable we're intransient. if we can do that, he can divide
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another wedge, put in another wedge between the united states and two other big powers. >> president trump has talked a lot about is trying to get china more actively involved and said he believes he had success in that. there are real geopolitical reasons and strategic reasons, and economic reasons, that china does not want a unified korea. i mean, the idea of a unified korea that is focused toward the west on china's border is not something that they would like. the idea of an unstable north korea with refugees coming into china, that's also not something that china would like. >> yeah, i think china is really using north korea to destabilize, for instance, south korea, japan, the united states. every time north korea does something provocative, we send our secretary of state to paging, we plead for chinese cooperation, and we don't talk about the things that are important to us like predatory trade practices, cyber attacks, south china sea. that goes way by the boards because we're talking about
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north korea. short term, beijing finds this to be a very good dynamic for them, so, of course, they're going to continue to fuel this. what trump should be doing is countering it. he's not with tweets like this. >> gordon chang, stay with us. joining the conversation, democratic member of the house intelligence committee, congressman jim himes of connecticut. congressman himes, you obviously now heard of this tweet. what do you make of the president's language? >> you know, anderson, we're two days into the new year and freudians all over the world have already had the best year ever. and, you know, i guess apart from that, you know, three thoughts on this, you know, need for the president to demonstrate that his is bigger and stronger than anybody else's. number one, why would you want to goad this unpredictable leader of north korea to maybe demonstrate his capabilities? that could get real very quickly. number two, you know, again, i guess the president regards this as a show of strength. as everybody who's ever been in a, you know, first grade playground recognizes, it's usually the person who's most aggressively pounding their chest that is, in fact, the weak
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one on the playground. number three, and here's what really troubles me, anderson, remember we started the day today with the tweet in which the president took credit for the fact there were no airplane crashes in the united states. what really troubles me about that, and all of other tweets and this latest tweet, we've gotten to a place, a very weird place where it doesn't really matter what the president of the united states says anymore because it is so bizarre, strange, not true, infantile. we never lived in a country where what the president of the united states says doesn't really matter. >> especially, congressman himes, when the next day or next week, whatever it may be, the white house comes out and says the president didn't mean that. he tweeted about the deep state department of justice and now the white house today said he didn't mean that, you know, the whole department of justice is part of the deep state. as if there is a deep state. >> i mean, that's precisely my point. i mean, in a point and time around the world in the middle east, certainly in north korea, in iran, where you would like the united states and certainly the executive branch of the
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united states to be speaking with one voice, to have a fairly clear point of view on things, you have a president who is just tweeting out utter madness. dangerous madness in the case of encouraging the doj to go after his political enemies, but, you know, it's just -- it's just -- i mean, off script doesn't even begin to describe it. again, i don't know that we've ever been here. you'll recall president obama at one point was considering sending one of our carrier groups into the south china sea, diverting it, and president obama at the time said, hey, we do not bluff with aircraft carriers. and, you know, here's our new president, well not so new anymore, but our president not just bluffing with aircraft carriers, but, you know, playing some infantile game of whose is bigger with a nuclear arsenal. so, again, this is just a world i'm not sure we ever imagined before. >> also, congressman, you know, when you look back at u.s. foreign policy, whether it's with republicans and democrats and you can argue it hasn't been successful vis-a-vis north korea, but at the very least it is a considered policy where,
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you know, the state department is involved, intelligence community is involved. there's a lot of people working on it trying to figure out. this -- maybe his supporters would say, well, look, you know, that didn't work, make his bellicose rhetoric, you know, bragging about the size of his nuclear button, is the way to go. that all this careful diplomacy just doesn't amount no much. >> yeah, again, that's sort of the madman theory of foreign policy, taking us back to nixon where if the u.s. president is unpredictable, i'm not a believer in that theory. again, a country with a nuclear arsenal shouldn't been predictable. that was certainly the lesson in the cold war. anderson, what's particularly weird about the timing here is, it would appear as though kim jong-un had softened his attitude certainly with respect to south korea. there was, you know, at least a sense that perhaps they were willing to talk to each other. we hadn't seen a test in a little while. and, again, it's a vexing problem, you know, you've had success back in the clinton
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administration that turned into not so much success. so it seems like a very strange moment, just when kim jong-un was getting less bellicose for our president to goad him. again, i can't climb inside this guy's head, but if you tell me my nuclear button doesn't work, that certainly sounds like you're calling at the poker table. you know, look, if we have another test tomorrow, if we see another missile test, we'll know why. >> gordon, what do you think north korea -- how north korea terms of this? obviously, there is no real -- there's no u.s. representation inside north korea. they view us probably through a very different lens than other countries view us or that, you know, we may not understand the lens that they view us through. what do -- how do you think they interpret this? >> yeah, i think they believe this elevates kim jong-un because he's involved in a conversation that everyone can listen to with the president of the united states. now, it's a silly conversation, it's juvenile, infantile, all the rest of it, but nonetheless, it is two guys standing next to each other, and so the north koreans view that as really great.
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it does -- >> sounds like kim jong-un is on the same level -- >> on the same level as president trump, and clearly that should never be the case. we should never allow that to happen. and it wouldn't happen if our president wouldn't tweet out something like this. >> and congressman, as someone who's on the intelligence committee, you know, the u.s. policy has always been to avoid direct u.s./north korean talks. now, people have argued, james clapper and others have argued that maybe that should change, but to gordon chang's point, this certainly does seem to be now the u.s. directly communicating with north korea, unfortunately, just in 140 to 280 characters. >> yeah, no, that's right. that's right. and, you know, again, sort of negotiation theory, and of course, the north koreans are as hard as they come with respect to negotiation. negotiation theory would suggest, you know, careful trust-building mechanisms, look for common ground, do it through intermediaries, show good faith. this tweet is kind of the opposite of that. again, i can't climb inside kim
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jong-un's head, but he's a guy who is anxious about his own survival and he was just challenged by his international enemy, and so the idea that he's going to take -- i mean, it's a sort of a no-lose situation for him. he can respond and show he's a tough guy, too. i'm not sure that will be useful. or he can be the bigger man. can you imagine if kim jong-un, you know, responds to this with carefulness and prudence, how that makes the united states and the american president look? so in some ways it's a no-lose proposition for this young untested and off balance leader of north korea. >> congressman himes, appreciate your time. professor chang, if you would just stay with us. perspective next from david gergen and, no, this was not the only presidential tweet in the last few moments. there's more, when we come back. turn up your swagger game with one a day men's. a complete multivitamin with key nutrients plus b vitamins for heart health. your one a day is showing. save up to $8 on one a day. see sunday's paper.
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[ both laugh ] here, blow. blow on it. you see it, right? is there a draft in here? i'm telling you, it's so easy to get home insurance on progressive can't save you from becoming your parents. but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto. well, the breaking news tonight, a boastful presidential tweet about nuclear weapons. to reiterate, the president just tweeted this. "north korean leader kim jong-un stated the nuclear button is on the desk at all times. will someone from his depleted and food-starved regime please inform him i, too, have a nuclear button but it is a much bigger and more powerful one than his and my button works." back with gordon chang of the center for strategic and international studies.
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also joining us is cnn senior political analyst david gergen. david, as someone who's worked for presidents, both republican and democrat, what do you make of this tweet? >> well, first of all, anderson, it's good to see you. beyond that, we're back to my hands are bigger than your hands. my nuclear button is bigger than your nuclear button. there is sort of a male sort of, you know, rivalry here that i think that -- what i think is happening is that the white house legitimately sees that the north koreans reaching out to the south koreans to begin one-on-one talks with the south koreans could very much go crosswise with u.s. policy at being very tough on north korea. as you know, anderson, the south korean government is notably more moderate, less aggressive than the trump administration is. so that the capacity of the north koreans to drive a wedge between us will buy time with the north koreans, which is very
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viable to them, and so i think the president is trying to heat up the rivalry again in doing this, but at the same time, it diminishes his presidency. it's just not the way presidents conduct business fruitfully. >> and, david, to, you know, those of his supporters who say, well, you know, plenty of presidents have been presidential before, and it hasn't really had the desired impact on north korea, why not what's wrong with him just, you know, keeping it real? >> well, i think that the concern, of course, is that we're edging ever more closely toward potential conflict. it was -- i think it was quite striking that the secretary general of the united nations this weekend issued the first ever red alert to the world about the fact that in several places including the korea situation, we're edging very close to potential conflict.
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and this is the very moment when you want a cool head in the white house and -- and people of some measured authority and people who use force carefully and use words carefully. you want them to be very much in the saddle in the white house. it is destabilizing for the world if there's a sense, and it's only a sense, in fairness to president trump, he's, you know, i think if you look at his actual policies, he's done better than one might have been fearful of a while back. but his rhetoric continues to be very unsettling. and these sort of outbursts are sort of like, these childish outbursts are just very unsettling i think for the world. >> david, of all the presidents you've worked with, have you ever seen a president talk about, you know, how strong he is, how tough he is, as much as this president? i mean, there's plenty of presidential -- >> no, macho talk is -- listen, presidents do say things behind the scenes out of range of the
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cameras that they don't say in public, but i've never heard it even behind the scenes the kind of macho talk that this president engages in, and clearly enjoys. >> professor chang, you were saying there's a pattern to north korea's sort of bellicose statements. >> yeah, the one thing that there's a real concern is if you go back seven decades, before the korean war, you see the korean regime make these peace overtures and they follow them within weeks by some provocation. in june 1950 was actually started the korean war. we saw this in 2010 when the north koreans killed 50 south koreans. two horrible incidents. both preceded by overtures. we saw this again in 2014. and i'm concerned that if some reason things go sideways this time, we're going to see the north koreans do something horrible. september 25th, promised an atmospheric test of a hydrogen bomb. that's something that could happen or even be worse. we got the olympics coming up next month. they could disrupt those
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olympics and that could be a game changer. >> what is the -- why do you think they do that? why have an overture and then something, a provocation? >> because if the overture is not accepted immediately on north korea's terms then they think they have, you know, a justification for using force. what they're also doing is keeping everybody else including the south koreans, including us, off balance. this really works very well for them. they've done this now, since, you know, for 70 years. it has been something that we have always reacted in the way that they wanted. so they're going to continue to do that until it no longer works. >> david gergen, i mean, what happens now? i mean, if, you know, again, rex tillerson had made this public statement saying they were willing to have talks. that seems to -- i mean, the night it was announced, i remember we were on the air and everybody was very cautious in talking about this because it seemed so -- such a major departure from what the trump administration policy had been and the public statements had
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been up until then. >> i think we have to assume that with rex tillerson likely to be close to an exit that what the president says represents the policy, and represents the direction in which we're going. i don't think it's possible to say what happens exactly. what i do think is the south koreans would be grateful to the north koreans if the north koreans promised not to make trouble for the olympics, they got through that period, it would buy the north koreans another three to six months to work on their nuclear capacity and every month that goes by, they seem to get better at it or every, you know, year that goes by, certainly. and so i think that is a legitimate concern of this administration. how are they going to stop this? it is possible, anderson, if the north koreans work out some sort of a way of living together with the south koreans, we could be faced with a situation where the south koreans say we can live with a north korean bomb, we don't like it, we hate it, but we think we can deter them from
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using it and by the way, we're on a better path. >> david gergen, gordon chang, appreciate it. gordon chang is author of "nuclear showdown: north korea takes on the world." just ahead, another president tweet causes concern. coming up next, new reporting that undermines two key white house claims about the russia investigation and a former campaign adviser. [notification tone] ♪ i love your vest. your crocheted purses have wonderful eyes. ♪ in the modern world, an app can help you find your perfect match. and with esurance, coverage counselor® can help you find great coverage that's a perfect match too. that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance. an allstate company. click or call.
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call, visit, or go to tonight's tweet from the president boasting about the size and power of his nuclear button was not the president's only one. fresh from vacation, he spoke out today on iranian protesters standing up for their rights. he claimed the justice department is part of the deep state and took personal credit for the absence of deadly airline accidents around the world last year. today white house spokesperson sarah sanders was asked about all of it. we'll talk about it all of it tonight. we begin, though, keeping them honest, with something, oddly, she was not asked about. it's a story in "the new york times" headlined "how the russia inquiry began: campaign aide drinks and talks of political dirt." if the reporting bears out, it contradicts two key white house claims about the russia investigation. one, about the roots of it, the other about someone the administration has all but called a nobody, former campaign
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foreign policy adviser george papadopoulos who's now cooperating witness in the probe. the day after christmas, president trump restated claim one, tweeting, "wow, fox & friends' dossier is bogus. clinton campaign, dnc-funded dossier, fbi cannot after all this time verify claims in dossier of russia/trump collusion. fbi tainted. and they used this crooked hillary pile of garbage as the basis for going after the trump campaign." as you know, this has been something of a refrain from this president. >> didn't she spend $12.4 million on a dossier that was a total phony? i think it's very sad what they've done with this fake dossier. i think it's a disgrace. it's just really -- it's a very sad -- it's a very sad commentary on politics in this country. when you look at that horrible dossier which is a total phony, fake deal, like so much of the news that i read, when you look at that and take a look at what's gone on with that and the kind of money we're talking about, it is a disgrace. >> the dossier is a collection of research compiled by former british intelligence officer christopher steele for a firm called fusion gps.
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fusion was paid by the dnc and clinton campaign for campaign research from april of 2016 until just before the election. prior to that, it was hired by the conservative "washington free beacon", both it and the clinton campaign denied knowledge of the dossier, itself. the document details alleged russian efforts to help the trump campaign, including salacious and unsubstantiated destales which cnn has not reported. american investigators have corroborated portions of what's in the dossier. we and others reported it was not as the president claims the central basis for investigating his campaign. what we did not fully understand, though, is what, in fact, was the thing that may have kicked the fbi to high gear. the "times" story attempts to clear up the mystery. whether it fills in all the blanks, that is certainly an open question. here's the lead of it. "during a night of heavy drinking at an upscale london bar in may 2016, george papadopoulos, young foreign policy adviser to the trump campaign, made a startling revelation to australia's top diplomat in britain, russia had political dirt on hillary
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clinton." now the "times" is sourcing this to four current and former american and foreign -- excuse me, american and foreign officials with direct knowledge of the australians' role. the report continues, "three weeks earlier mr. papadopoulos had been told moscow had thousands of e-mails that would embarrass mrs. clinton, apparently stolen in an effort to damage her campaign. exactly how much mr. papadopoulos said that night at the kensington wine rooms with the australian, alexander downer, is unclear. two months later when leaked democratic e-mails began appearing online, australian officials passed the information about mr. papadopoulos to american counterparts." continuing the "times'" account, say "the hacking and revelation that a member of the trump campaign may have had inside information about it were driving factors that led the fbi to open an investigation in july 2016 into russia's attempts to disrupt the election and whether any of president trump's associates conspired." now remember, by that time, the candidate's son had already met with russians promising dirt on
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hillary clinton and the president had already teased that something big would be coming on clinton. it's also roughly when carter page was in russia. the "times'" chronology is not precise down to the day. coincidence? that's something presumably the fbi wanted to know. in the new information from the "times" about george papadopoulos' words to an australia official is especially interesting. you might remember after he pleaded guilty and word got out he was cooperating with the investigation, president trump, his spokespeople and surrogates did everything but write him out of the campaign picture entirely. >> look, this individual was the member of a volunteer advisory council that met one time over the course of a year. he was a volunteer, again, on a council that met once. >> the guy, he was the coffee boy. >> it was extremely limited. it was a volunteer position. and, again, no activity was ever done in an official capacity on behalf of the campaign in that regard. >> you might have called him a foreign policy analyst, but, in
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fact, you know, if he was going to wear a wire, all we'd know now is whether he prefers a carmel macchiato over a normal american coffee in conversations with his barista. he had nothing to do with the campaign. >> that doesn't seem to jive with the new reporting. mr. papadopoulos was trusted enough to edit the outline of the candidate's first major foreign policy speech, something the "times" said he the boasted to his russian contacts about and helped coordinate a meeting in december 2016 between mr. trump's and egypt's president. perspective from nixon white house counsel, john dean. cnn legal analyst, jeffrey toobin. florida international university's elizabeth foley. according to the report from the "times," papadopoulos seemed to be more than a coffee boy or insignificant campaign volunteer as the president and his allies previously said. >> that's right. the story suggests that this conversation was the root of the investigation and this is how
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fbi investigations start. if it started with the steele dossier, that would have been appropriate, too. the idea that you need some official source to start an investigation is just false, but -- but the "times" story, as you say, if it checks out, basically puts the lie to everything that the president has said about the origins of this investigation, and we now know this is an investigation that has led to two guilty pleas, pending indictment against two senior officials and, you know, we'll see where it goes, but, i mean, this story establishes that this investigation began in a way completely separate from the way that the president has said it began. >> professor foley, if papadopoulos told others in the campaign at the time that russia had dirt on hillary clinton, could they face legal implications for knowing about it or not coming forward? >> no, i mean, unless you're going to be lying to investigators, there's no evidence of any of that.
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i mean, what disturbs me about this story the most, i mean, besides the fact that it's 180 degrees from what "the new york times" told us in april was the genesis of this investigation, which was carter page's travels to moscow in july of 2016, is the fact that all papadopoulos did, apparently, was have some conversations with a woman who called herself the niece of putin, and apparently doesn't have a niece. and some professor at a scottish university who was based out of london who told him that he had some dirt through his friends in russia on clinton. but, you know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with having conversations with russians, even russians that may have dirt on your opponent in a presidential campaign. i think we're getting a little bit scary here with the way we're suggesting that talking or meeting with russians is somehow
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inherently nefarious or illegal. it certainly is not. i mean, i wonder how many meetings between the clinton campaign there was with russians or people who claim to have some ties to russia or had russian heritage or how many people in the romney campaign or mccain campaign, barack obama campaign -- >> if the russians had connections to russian intelligence, would you have any concern with that? >> no, because, again, there's nothing -- look, first of all, collusion is not a crime, but -- >> so it would be fine for somebody from a campaign to meet with a russian who had direct contacts with russian intelligence? >> oh, sure. absolutely. there's no crime in that. you can meet with russians all day and hear anything they have to say. >> so, john, how do you see this? i mean -- >> well, what was most striking to me, as a former insider being on the wrong side of -- on the inside of a scandal, was how little the press really does know about what's going on. during watergate, the
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"washington post" was the lead story. they followed it closely. but we never were concerned about what they knew because they didn't know anything about what was truly happening inside the white house. they were following the investigation, picking up information from witnesses, but they were always month behind and i suspect that's what's happening here. we're just getting little shreds of what went on and only mr. mueller really knows what he has. >> you know, jeff, to john's point, it is interesting because, you know, when george papadopoulos was named by mueller, you know, for a lot of people, it was the first time they heard of george papadopoulos. >> that's true. and i think john is right, that there is undoubtedly plenty of this story we still don't know. and, you know, it is absolutely true that there is nothing illegal about meeting with russians. i mean, the -- what's illegal is lying about meeting with russians, which appears to have happened at least several times
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over the course of this investigation. papadopoulos lied about meeting with russians and pleaded guilty. the national security adviser pleaded guilty to lying about russians. and also it is not just meeting with russians that we're talking about. we're talking about meeting with russians and then the russians release the wikileaks tapes, the wikileaks e-mails which, you know, were of enormous benefit to the clinton -- to the trump campaign. so it's not the meetings that are illegal. the question is, was there some sort of conspiracy to release information that was stolen from democrats and then released? that's the legal question, not whether there were meetings that took place. >> professor foley, is that the legal question? >> well, i mean, it would be a legal question if there were any facts to suggest that that kind of activity occurred. i mean, look at papadopoulos, the only thing they got him on was one count of lying to the fbi. what did he lie about?
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he didn't actually cover up the fact that he met with this london professor, professor mifsud, or this russian individual who claimed to be the niece of vladimir putin. he admitted that he met with them. he -- the only thing he lied about was lying about the timing of when he met with them. okay? if they had had any evidence that he or anyone else in the trump campaign actually colluded with russia, had some sort of quid quo pro arrangement, you would be sure he'd not be copping a guilty plea to one count of lying about the timing -- >> how do you know that? >> -- of having meetings with them. >> how do you know -- why are you so sure -- >> i think it's common sense, because if i'm the fbi and the doj and i actually have evidence that papadopoulos has done something more serious than lying to the fbi, i assume it's my duty to have him plea to that or to charge him with it. >> no, it's not. that's why -- that's why they call it a plea bargain.
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you give -- you let someone plea to lesser charges so that they will cooperate against more important people. you hardly can believe -- let me finish. >> all you're doing -- >> one at a time. nobody can hear when you talk over each other. jeff, finish your thought. >> the idea that they need to charge george papadopoulos with the most serious crimes because he's the most significant person in the investigation is absurd. he -- he cut a deal and he pled guilty to lying. now, you don't think apparently it's a very serious lie to the fbi. the fbi apparently feels differently. but the idea that the investigation, that this is all they can prove because this is what the plea bargain was, that can't be true. >> okay, professor foley? >> you know that's not what i just said. what i said is if they had any information on papadopoulos they would have pursued more vigorous charges against him presumably. if there's any evidence, i'd
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like to see it. all i've heard about it is innuendo. look at the timing here. on july 7th, carter page goes to moscow to give a speech at a university. on july 19th, this is 2016, steele submits a salacious dossier to the fbi about some sort of quid pro quo being discussed between page and russian oligarchs. submits that to the fbi on july 19th. about a month later we have the fbi going to the foreign intelligence surveillance court to get a wiretap, essentially, to get surveillance of carter page. and this is all based on a dossier which, by the way -- >> no, it's not. >> you don't have proof of that, professor. >> you don't know that. >> that's what jim comey has suggested. that's what cnn -- >> he never said that. >> that's what cnn reported in april of 2016. excuse me, 2017. and that's also what "the new york times" previously reported in april of 2017. so all of a sudden now they're trying to walk back that genesis of this investigation and switch it to papadopoulos.
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if they'd really believed that national security was at risk or there was some collusion -- >> i'll double check this, professor, but i don't believe that we reported that that was the basis for -- for this, but i'll double check it. >> actually, you do. i looked at it today. i believe it's april 17th of 2017. >> i'll look it up and i appreciate that. john dean, just quickly before we go, i mean, do you believe this investigation is in its conclusion phase, as the president's attorneys seem to be indicating? >> no, i don't. i don't. i think it's very early in the investigation still. we know the prosecutor is going to be around for at least one very serious trial. so he's going nowhere. and that will probably be at least a year off before that ends. >> john dean, appreciate it. jeff toobin, professor elizabeth foley. thank you very much. good discussion. coming up, the president also tweeted about the iran protests which have left more than 20 people dead, hundreds arrested. what the president tweeted and what the white house had to say this afternoon, next.
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if you're watching, we just had an interesting conversation. professor foley referenced a cnn reporting from april. i want to read three paragraphs from that. "the fbi last year used a dossier of allegations of russian ties to donald trump's campaign as part of the justification to win approval to secretly monitor a trump associate according to u.s. officials briefed in the investigation," saying it's "part of." the dossier also has been cited by fbi director james comey in some briefings to members of congress in recent weeks as one of the sources of information the bureau has used to bolster its investigation. according to u.s. officials briefed on the probe. it goes on to say, "officials familiar with the process say even if the application to monitor page included information from the dossier, it would only be after the fbi had corroborated the information through its own investigation. the officials would not say what or how much was corroborated."
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so our breaking news, president trump taunts the north korean leader on twitter. a short time ago he posted this. "north korean leader kim jong-un stated the nuclear button is on his desk at all times. will someone from his depleted and food-starved regime please inform him i, too, have a nuclear button but it is a much bigger and more powerful one than his and my button works." earlier today, the president also tweeted about iran where the death toll from six straight days of anti-government protests have risen to 21. hundreds of people have been arrested in the last few days during protests that iran's supreme leader is blaming on the nation's enemies. today president trump tweeted, "the people of iran are finally acting against the brutal and corrupt iranian regime. all the money president obama so foolishly gave them went into terrorism and into their pockets. people have little food, big inflation, and no human rights. the u.s. is watching." at the white house this afternoon press secretary sarah sanders said this. >> the people are tired of paying the price for their violent and corrupt rulers. as a result, we are now seeing an organic popular uprising
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organized by brave iranian citizens on the largest scale since 2009, but the international community cannot sit silent as it did then. the united states supports the iranian people and we call on the regime to respect its citizens' basic right to peacefully express their desire for change. >> sanders was asked whether encouraging the protests ran the risk of a backlash against them from the iranian government. she said, no, and, again, said president trump won't, quote, sit by silently like president obama did. richard haass is the president of the council on foreign relations. he argues under president trump the united states abdicated its power own responsibility, changing the country from the principal preserver of order to a principal disrupter. he writes about this extensively in the new afterward to his book, "a world in disarray: american foreign policy and the crisis of old order." i spoke with him before air. ambassador haass, you've been talking now, writing about what you see as an abdication of u.s. responsibility. u.s. power in terms of the foreign policy under this administration.
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do you see this in the administration's reaction to countries like iran, pakistan and north korea? >> well, obviously, anderson, every case is specific. in the case of south korea, the united states hurt itself tremendously by walking away from the trans-pacific partnership which wasn't just a trade agreement but really was a strategic framework for the united states to deal with that -- that entire region and more broadly the fact this president has introduced such a degree of unpredictability. even unreliability into u.s. relationships. what i think it has done is accelerated the move by others to carry out a more independent foreign policy that doesn't defer as much to the united states. >> you make a difference between abdication of power and responsibility as opposed to -- as from isolationism. >> yeah, i don't see this administration as isolationist. they used force in the middle east against isis. they used it in syria. they've used sanctions in various places.
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they've introduced diplomacy, say, in the middle east. so it's not isolationist, but the reason i use the word, "abdication," anderson, is what they've done is unilaterally, it wasn't forced on them, they chose to walk away from many of the institutions, frameworks, introduce questions into alliances that have really formed or informed american foreign policy now for nearly three quarters of a century. what's so interesting, what's really unprecedented, it wasn't because we don't have the capacity. we're still the world's strongest economy, the world's strongest military. we've essentially decided in many cases that we simply don't think it's worth it, that we don't want to do it anymore. i think that's flawed. it's based on a real misreading of the costs and benefits of u.s. leadership, but there you have it. >> what kind of an impact do you think that's had on our allies? >> well, it's essentially unnerved most of them. i think in the short run, it's made them less reliant on us, thinking more about how they have to carry out their own foreign policy.
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i think it's diminished respect for us. you see that most strongly in europe, say, when the u.s. walked away from the paris climate pact or they see things going on in this country that to them doesn't represent the america they thought they knew. i think over time, over years or decades, i can imagine countries doing everything from deferring more to china or to a russia, or i could see countries taking matters into their own hands more. thinking about maybe they need nuclear weapons because they can't rely as they thought on the united states to be there for them. >> it's interesting because the president keeps talking about how other countries used to laugh at us and they're not laughing at us anymore. i don't dmo where he sort of experiences that, but there it does seem to be something that he brings up .edly that nobody's laughing at us anymore. >> well, i didn't find people laughed at us. i think they respected utz for our economic vitality, our innovation. they still line up to good to american universities.
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they admire our ability to deal with domestic issues say in our lifetime say like civil rights. i think there was some frustration in certain parts of the world with the previous two administration, obviously, with the war in iraq and then with mr. obama's at times receipt sense or reluctance to use power. i'm not going to sit here and say everything was perfect before donald trump became president. but there are bigger issues about what is the united states, what sour dis our dna and much confidence on the world. >> the domestic stability also has an effect on the u.s. >> absolutely. i think people forget that foreign policy is not something conducted simply by the u.s. military or by diplomats, but everything we do, everything we are as a society, as an economy sends a message, sets an example. so charlottesville, that's foreign policy. when the economy grows, that's
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foreign policy. when we have high levels or sustained levels of unemployment, that's also foreign policy. again, the example we set can often be as important as anything we say or do. >> then what kind of an impact do you think i mean the economy seems to be going well, unemployment's at record lows, the stock market's at record highs. >> that's all good and people admire that. on the other hand they see the social divisions within america. they don't understand our use of guns. they don't the whole opioid epidemic. they see the political dysfunction, the partisanship, the attacks on the media, the attacks on the judiciary spot all that detracts from the immediate good economic news. >> best to richard haass, thanks so much. >> thank you, anderson. >> if you're thinking that the night in the breaking news is all about presidential tweets, stay with us one more tweet and one more presidential attack. see who he targets when we come back. ily history. went to ancestry, i put in the names of my grandparents first. i got a leaf right away.
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tonight's tweet from president trump on the size and power of his nuclear button is one thing, this tweet is another. also it came just moments ago from the president. quote, i will be announcing the most dishonest and corrupt media award of the year at monday at 5:00. subjects will cover various sources from the fake news media, stay tuned. joining us now is brian stelter. any idea exactly what he's talking about? >> this is something he seemed to propose before the new year, the idea of a fake news trophy that should be awarded. the the rnc picked up ton and said they would take nominations. it seems the president right out of reality tv wants to create a moment of drama where he'll announce the winners. obviously the least important tweet of the day. but this came just a few minutes
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after the nuclear button tweet. what's on the president's mind? we know what's on his mind. 16 tweets today to start the new year, some of them deeply disturbing. >> right. considering how the new year has started, what does this is a about the year? >> madness. think we should start to call it that, shouldn't we? when president trump was inaugurated last january, some write like andrew sullivan started to raise concerns about the president's mental health, his fitness for office. in the months that followed we say republican senators like jeff flake bring these issues up, try to ask about his fitness for office. bob corker another name that comes to mind. think we could apply a test to his 16 tweets today. the test would be if this were the leader of -- if this were the leader of germany or china or brazil, what would we say? how would we cover these tweets? we would say these are the messages from a person who is not well, from a leader who is not fit for office. >> i mean the counterargument to that is he just has a different style and other presidents have
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tried more plipmatic language, vis a vis north korea and his supporters will say that didn't work and maybe this is the way to go. >> and certainly on twitter any president, whether it's former president obama now president trump future presidents of the u.s., they can use twitter and facebook and other social media tools to great effect to achieve legislative victories, to persuade the public to come to their side. but i don't think that's what we're seeing with his use of twitter tonight. i've asked twitter spokesman does this violate twitter's terms of service making this kind of threat toward north korea? so far no immediate comment from the company. still waiting to hear. i think they're trying to decide if this kind of tweet referring to a nuclear button that he knows how to use and it works where are whether that actually say violation of the terms of service because it may threaten violence. these are the kinds of questions that social media companies now have to ask themselves. >> appreciate it. he raised eyebrows this morning when he seemed to take credit
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for no commercial airlines fatalities last year. here's the tweet. since taking office i've been strict on commercial aviation. good news there were zero deaths in 2017, the bestnd safest year on record. what he didn't mention was if wassa you will most been nine years since the latest fatal domestic airline crash in the u.s. joining me myles o'brien. should the president be taking any kind of credit here? because the numbers he's talking about are global numbers for all around the world, as i understand it. >> i think in a word, anderson, the answer is no, there is no individual on the planet. even if there was one in charge of the global aviation enterprise who can take credit for this remarkable record? this is the work of thousands of people currently and generations of them really since 1903. aviation is all about improving safety based on bad events. they say the rules are written in blood and, frankly, the president insults those who work long and hard and who over the
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years have risked and sometimes given their lives to make aviation safe. >> when the president says he's been, quote, very strict on commercial aviation, what is he exactly referring to? what is the evidence of that? >> i have no earthly idea. the evidence that we see is the president would like to turn air traffic control over to the airlines and special interests and privatize it. this is a system that isn't broke, why are we trying to fix it? and if the president cared a lot about the faa he might want to nominate a new faa administrator, the current administrator his term nends about a week. so i see nothing but just the opposite. >> all right. myles o'brien, appreciate that. we have breaking news at the top of the hour. here's what the president tweeted just a short time ago. north korean leader kim jong-un just stated that the nuclear button is on his desk at all times. will someone from his depleted and food-starved regime please inform him that i too have a nuclear button but it's