tv CNN Newsroom With Ana Cabrera CNN May 27, 2018 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT
collapsed there after massive flooding. water is raging through the streets of downtown. washing away cars. swift water rescue teams have also been deployed. police issue a strong warning to drivers telling them to turn around and not drive through the town's flooded streets. eyewitness is on the phone with us now from ellicott city. photo journalist chris turner on the scene joining us in a second. i believe we begin with cally harris who's standing by in the middle of all of this. just first of all destrib what you are seeing right now outside of your window. >> i'm actually -- i was actually evacuated from my home. and so i had to go back behind my building and down some roof tops and come across the street and through the water. and i'm up the hill so i'm not in my apartment anymore and the water's receding now. but the destruction was just
unbelievable. there were trees sticking out everywhere and cars standing up straight. totally upright everywhere. buildings wiped out. windows gone. inventory from the stores everywhere. it's all wiped out. >> so, kali, were you asked to evacuate or made that decision on your own? facilitated by first responders? >> yeah. so when the flooding started the first responders told me to stay put. and then when it kind of -- when it receded more, to a point where i could get across safely they came in and helped me evacuate. >> so we are actually looking at the video you posted online earlier today. it is absolutely incredible to see that water just flowing down the main street there. how quickly did the flooding start? was it completely dry one point and then looked out and essentially a river?
>> it was -- sorry. i'm just taking it all in. it was a little bit more of a slow rise than it was the flood in 2016. but it was within a half an hour it started flooding the streets and got really high and as fast as it was in the video. >> yeah. kali, do you want to just take a moment? are you okay? >> yeah. i'm okay. >> i understand that you're going through a lot. i appreciate the fact that you're giving us the opportunity to show our viewers what you and so many folks in the area are dealing with. i know, kali, this must be difficult for you in part because you went through this two years ago. when you saw that water, did it bring back a lot of those memories of what you experienced before? >> oh, absolutely. i was just standing out the window when the rain started and every time it rains i usually go to my window and just wait there
to kind of watch and monitor the situation and so i did the same thing today and it just -- never let up and it just -- started flooding all over again. >> so what have officials told you? do you hope that the worst is behind you? is there the chance that more flooding could happen later today? could it be weeks before your life is back to normal there? what is your sense of what the future holds? >> well, the last time i was evacuated from my building i couldn't get in for a week. and i was displaced from my apartment for four months. so i'm expecting something similar. for being displaced from the work and my house. and maybe not being able to get my stuff. i haven't heard anything from officials yet except more rain is possible. so just kind of on hold to wait and see. i'm assuming all of the
displaced for a good couple of months again similar to what i was in 2016. >> wow. will you still live there? is it worth it? >> you know, i don't know. to be honest with you. it was last time but i don't know. i don't know. living through this twice is very surreal. i don't know if i could come back. >> yeah. i can understand. and finally, kali, everybody that you know in that area as far as you know everyone is safe? have you heard any reports of anyone being injured? >> no. no. we have a community group on facebook and i believe -- i haven't gotten a chance to look because i'm trying to keep in touch with everybody i know to let them know i'm safe. from what i know everybody's relatively safe. >> that is very good news. we so appreciate you taking the time given everything you have been through today. the fact that you were able to
share this video, got it out to a lot of people beyond we are, we appreciate your perspective and stay safe and wish you the best of luck as you recover from the flood. i want to move on to chris turner, cnn photo journalist, who lives in maryland not far from this area. i know that and this is video that chris actually shot not too long ago. chris, give me an idea of what you are seeing right now. >> right now, ryan, we are seeing a lot of the water has receded. a lot of the mud and debris leftover is laying over. we saw governor hogan walk down the steps through the mud to survey the damage. some of the residents are moving back towards the area. there was one area parking lot that i did take pictures of where the floodwaters were up to the roofs of cars and now just mud. but people are making their way through the mud kind of trying to assess the damage of what just happened.
>> i see in that one bit of video that you shot it looks as though the pavement is just ripped apart creating a huge hole. we see cars being tossed and. that's that video there. that is pretty remarkable. i mean, i know you live in this area. have you ever seen anything like this before? >> you know, i remember in 2016 when the flood happened. my wife and kids were -- and i were, going to eat lunch here and decided against it for some reason and then next thing you know it was flooding. we have seen the video of the floods of 2016. i have rarely seen anything like that. i know that road that was washed away is an access point at the top of the hill coming down into the bottom of historic downtown ellicott city and that's going to take some definitely long time to repair. there's a tree that was cracking as it was -- the soil eroding and falling in.
it was very, very eerie to watch that happening. >> i can only imagine. and you -- i know you told our producers you smelled gas at one point. i would imagine there's more than concern about the water damage when you have something like this happen. >> there's a multitude of concerns here. there's mud damage. there's, you know, you never know what's underneath but this water's pushing a car swiftly down the street so you never know what that car hit, what that water's done inside homes. there was a smell of gas. they did ask us to back off and now let us back towards the scene of all this destruction. and hopefully, you know, this beautiful, quaint little downtown can get back to normal soon. >> yeah. chris turner, just one small example of cnn photojournalists that rush to danger when everybody else is rushing out, thank you for bringing us the incredible pictures. please stay safe. and we'll check back with you in a little bit.
now the full scope of exactly when's happening there by bringing in meteorologist tom seder with experience covering the weather in the washington, d.c. and baltimore areas. tom, what should we expect? are residents there through the worst of it? >> well, ryan, we have got good news and bad news. this is bad enough. the third round of thunderstorms moving in have really weakened so therefore the water's receding but the river has risen almost 18 feet in 2 hours setting an all-time record crest. unbelievable. focus on just the eastern and southeastern u.s. we have been stuck in a pattern for three weeks now where there's a stationary boundary across washington and baltimore, spreading back to the midwest. so the southeast is hitting -- seeing thunderstorms, ground's satch waite saturated and alberto. that is nuance storm. we need to watch it because the
moisture is lifting northward boo this area this week but if you follow the thunderstorms and the lightning strikes, round one and two and three. one, two on the same area. we call it training riding right on the front call area. this is the third one that's dying out. national weather service, believe it or not saying we thought sure six, seven, eight inches, they're saying 6 to 12 inches of rain fallen. that's like a freak of nature and water rescues, highway 29 in columbia. you've got ellicott city, an emergency warning extended to 10:30 and for howard county, you head into east central frederick county and maryland, anyone along the banks of the petasco river to get to the highest ground they can. ten inches of rain. this fell in a short amount of time and what's really staggering here is this is the
water gauge. in two hours, above the record which was 23.6 feet. hits 24.13. that's almost a 18-foot rise in 2 hours. therefore, an all-time record. but the rain is lightening up. we have to watch the precipitation shield up to the north from alberto. anything can had buts. a freak of nature. six to 12 inches, almost unheard of. >> the gauges fall in line with what kali told us, she said a dry street and within a half an hour, a raging, powerful river. absolutely incredible pictures out of maryland. tom, thank you for that. we'll continue to follow the breaking news. we'll be right back. your company is constantly evolving.
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he is expected to be there for a few days for observation but a spokesman said he is awake an alert and not in discomfort. you may recall that last month the 93-year-old has to be hospitalized for a blood infection. just a day after the funeral for his wife former first lady barbara bush n. an e-mail to friends and family, the former president's chief of staff struck a more reassuring tone saying, quote, i guess he partied too hard with the american legion yesterday. darn it. also tonight, rudy giuliani uncensored. the president's attorney suggesting in a new interview with cnn there's a strategy to undermine the work the special counsel is doing. and it has to do with all those conspiracies about the fbi spying on the trump campaign. take a listen. >> they're giving us the material. i couldn't do it if they didn't have the material. they're giving us the material to do it. of course we have to do it in defending the president. we're defending to a large
extent, remember, dana, we're defending -- it is for public opinion because eventually the decision here is going to be impeach/not impeach. members of congress republican and democrat will be informed a lot by the constituent and the jury as it should be is the american people. >> impeach or not impeach. boris sanchez at the white house, despite the apparent pr strategy against mueller, he says he wants to do an interview with him. >> reporter: surprising considering the string of attacks of president trump and the surrogates aiming to discredit the special counsel. today the president referred to it as a witch hunt and referred to russia's actions in the 2016 election as so-called meddling depyett the fact that there have been more than 20 indictments in that probe including to some dozen or so russians who have been indicted for meddling in the 2016 election. it is surprising, also notable,
that giuliani claimed that this investigation would already be over if the president didn't have this adamant stance he wants to meet with robert mueller one on one. listen to this exchange with dana bash on "state of the union." >> well, if he wasn't thinking about it and it wasn't an active possibility we would be finished with that and moving on to getting the investigation over another way. he is adamant in wanting to do it. we are -- the president, but we're more convinced as we see it's a rigged investigation. now we have this whole new spygate thing thrown on top of it, already very legitimate questions. >> reporter: and, ryan, one more note. the president tweeting about the russia investigation over the weekend, including one sort of curious tweet he sent out this morning referring the young and beautiful lives that have been destroyed by the russia investigation. unclear exactly who he means. i reached out to some folks in
the white house press team to try to get some clarity on this. is he talking about george papadopoulos or michael flynn or other figures in the campaign that pled guilty to serious crimes? no response from the white house, ryan. >> boris sanchez at the white house, thank you. coming up, the panel weighs in on rudy giuliani admissions and hawaii on high alert. lava reaching 2,000 acres. we are live on the big island.
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president talking about and not talking about with special counsel robert mueller. listen. >> if mueller -- everything can be worked out then they would probably limit it to collusion and obstruction. the collusion part, we're pretty comfortable with because there's been none. the obstruction part i'm not as comfortable with. the president is fine with it. he's innocent. >> all right. let's bring in the panel to discuss this. joining us from kentucky, cnn political commentator and former special assistant to president george w. bush scott jennings. and in our nation's capital, the deputy managing editor kelly jane torrens. isn't that a target knowing what the lawyers are uncomfortable about talking about him with? >> yeah. you know, ryan, i have to say i take a little bit of a contrarian stance on rudy giuliani. i know a lot of people in washington think, you know, he's
what's going on with him? little crazy. saying this and that. goes on the shows, says too much but i think the most telling thing he said in this interview today on cnn was talking about not making trump the victim. now, trump himself with his tweets constantly tries to make himself the victim of robert mueller's investigation. but rudy giuliani said that he doesn't want to talk about trump firing someone because that would make trump look like a victim and that was the problem with richard nixon. once you look like a victim of this you're a victim because you didn't something wrong and so rudy giuliani's the first lawyer of donald trump's that's really heavily gone on the offense. it is controversial tactic but the other tactics didn't work very well and perhaps this one will. >> going on the offense means attempting at least in some respect to undermine the credibility of the mueller investigation and, scott, a poll found 39% of republicans think trump should testify with robert
mueller. that's down from 54% in march. i mean, how much do you think that president trump's decision to either sit or not sit for an interview could impact republicans in the midterm elections? >> well, i think republicans by and large believe this investigation has gone on too long. they do want to see it concluded and they do want to know if russia meddled in the election but i think republicans think the president is unfairly targeted. i think what rudy and company are doing right now, though, is basically what the clinton white house did in the 1990s. you brought up some polling. what the clinton white house successfully able to do is target the special counsel, the people around ken starr, make it seem like they were unfairly treated. bill clinton's poll numbers went up and up and up. people lost faith in the special counsel and they knew what rudy knows, unlikely to indict a sitting president and aimed at the only political resolution, impeachment in the court of public opinion.
the way i see it, bill clinton's vast right wing conspiracy is donald trump's deep state. they're running essentially the same playbook. >> very similar. there is evidence, kelly jane, it's already working. the same poll finds 44% of people agree with the way that mueller is handling the investigation down from 48% in march. is this the proof that the president's attacks and what rudy giuliani is talking about essentially this political pr campaign that it's working? >> i think it is because let's face it. we don't actually know very much about how robert mueller is handling this probe. he does not go on the air. he is not tweeting. he is keeping very quiet. there have been some leaks but it seems to me that the leaks came from people who have been interviewed by robert mueller or people connected to them. not people on the team itself. and so, i think this pr tactic is working because robert muler is keeping very -- we don't know what information he has. and that's why we can't make a
prior judgment about whether his investigation is, you know, fair or not until we see what his evidence and when he presents it but i think, yes, the pr strategy -- that to me says it is working and i have to say this whole new stuff of spygate, that has nothing to do with robert mueller's probe. that was the fbi listening before robert mueller came on before donald trump was elected. but they're successfully connecting those things in the public's mind and i think you're right, ryan. poll numbers show it having affect. >> the average american is not watching every machinations of this investigation and compare ones a the effect to another. they lump it altogether. that's part of the effectiveness of throwing spygate out there and connecting to robert mueller and doesn't necessarily add up. scott, to that end, you know, ultimately if robert mueller has the goods on donald trump that may still convince the president to fire him or rod rosenstein and there are many republicans
who at least behind the scenes that are talking about being concerned about that and only one of them talking about it publicly and that's senator jeff flake. listen to what he said this morning. >> behind the scenes there is a lot of alarm. there's concern that the president is laying the groundwork to move on bob mueller or rosenstein. and if that were to happen, obviously, that would cause a constitutional crisis. there is concern behind the scenes. i've been concerned that we haven't spoken up loudly enough and told the president you simply can't go there. and he's obviously probing the edges as much as he can. >> right. >> to see how far congress will go. and we've got to push back harder than we have. >> scott, i've heard you many times and the best thing for the president to is allow the investigation to go forward. do you think republicans in congress should actually codify that in law, protect robert
mueller's investigation with a piece of legislation? >> no, i don't. i don't think it's necessary because i don't think the president's going to fire anybody. i think they're going to let the investigation go forward. we have essentially been having the same conversation now for months an months. will we wake up tomorrow and find that donald trump fired somebody? it's never happened. i think many -- >> he has -- scott, scott, he has fired some people. he did fire the fbi director james comey. he is not above not firing people. >> remember when he said he wouldn't fire rex tillerson and then did a few months later? >> he wasn't conducting an investigation boo the presideint and have senior officials warning the president. that's a bad idea at the doj. the best course of action to get it over with. i think firing people would prolong it, getting it over with, getting the information out there and then seeing what you have to deal with at that point, that is the way to expedite this. i think firing people prolongs it and then your political head
aches. >> why is it republicans in the congress reluctant to take that step of passing a law in. >> i think part of it is -- some of them, you have ben sass not a trump nfan and he thinks the president does have the right to hire and fire people in the executive branch. that doesn't mean that he thinks it's a good idea that trump should or should not do this. that doesn't mean he thinks it wouldn't be on junction of justice. there's the question for republicans, is it going against how the constitution and how the executive branch works in this country? surprisingly i think some republicans are thinking more long term and big picture rather than just this presidency. >> quickly, scott, i want you to react to this tweet from the president not too long ago. he said, why didn't president obama do something about the so-called russian meddling when he was told about it by the fbi
before the election? this seems to indicate that the president still is unwilling to concede that russia meddled in the 2016 election. isn't that a problem? >> well, i don't know. the administration and several people in washington have all conceded. reports and committees and other people, the intelligence community, have all said the russians meddled. i think what the president's getting at there is this. this happened on barack obama's watch. he said he had more flexibility. didn't enforce the red line in syria and i think the point is no wonder they tried to meddle in the election. they knew we were weak at the time. unexplored territory and matters to people if mueller finds the russians meddled and collusion, unwilling, there's people saying out there, wait a minute. why didn't the previous administration put a stop to this if they knew about it? we know they knew about it because they admitted they know. >> all right. excellent conversation as always. scott and kelly jane, thank you for joining me. coming up, a new sign that
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now to the maybe yes, maybe no meeting between donald trump and kim jong-un. a team of american diplomats and officials arrived a short time ago in north korea. they're doing advance work ahead of what might be a history-making moment. a face to face meeting between the two leaders. say i might be because just a couple of days ago in writing president trump pulled the plug on the meeting. june 12th in singapore. that's the date in place everyone decided upon.
paula hancocks is in seoul, south korea. paula, there's a lot of advance work for a summit nobody can say will definitely happen. >> reporter: well, that's right, ryan. and that gives us an indication it could well happen june 12th. we heard the u.s. president say that's a favored date. this delegation in the north korea at the moment an interesting one because it's headed up by a delegation or the delegation's headed up by the ambassador to the philippines. he was the ambassador here in south korea and negotiated in the past with north korea and he understands north korea better than most and understands the pitfalls and the difficulties in trying to negotiate with pyongyang. and at the same time we also know that there is a u.s. delegation in singapore or on its way and they will be looking at the more logistical side of it. the site surveys for the potential summitment all intents and purposes it looks like the summit is going ahead.
we heard from the south korean president moon jae-in on sunday, as well, talking about his surprise meeting with kim jong-un on saturday saying that he hopes the summit goes smoothly, not if but when, and an indication of kim jong-un looking for from mr. trump saying that he's looking for guarantees of regime survival. that is his all through president moon, not directly from kim jong-un himself and saying that he thinks there's economic benefits of north korea and said to mr. kim and said that he has to sit down next to mr. trump face to face to that he can have the guarantees given to him by the u.s. president. we've heard the u.s. president say this before saying he does guarantee kim's regem survival, says he will be safe, happy, his country will be rich. ryan? >> paula, president trump despite cancelling the summit seems optimistic it will happen. do south korean officials and the korean people share that
optimism? >> reporter: absolutely. the president of south korea wants this to happen. he staked his credibility on this dialogue. he is the driving force behind this. the people of south korea for the majority of them they would like to see it go ahead or at least they approve of what president moon's doing. the approval rating near 80% give and take a few percentage points depending on which you one you look at. that's incredible approval rating showing they like what he is doing. ryan? >> all right. paula hancocks live in seoul for us, thank you very much. coming up, lava from the kilauea voluntarily ka th kilauea volcano is so widespread it's visible from space. we'll get a live update. he's saying he's gonna score a bunch of three-pointers on you. yeah, we ball til we fall. there are multiples on the table: one is cash, three are fha, one is va. so what can you do? she's saying a whole lotta people want to buy this house. but you got this! rocket mortgage by quicken loans makes the complex simple.
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the situation on hawaii's big island is getting more dire by the minute. about two hours ago we learned of a new fissure in the estates. it is not threatening any structures yet. another fissure doubled in size in the last 24 hours. another spewing lava more than 100 feet in the air. officials say the eruption is vigorous right now and cuts off neighborhoods and consumes homes. the molten rock destroyed 4 miles. we are in the fourth week of this nightmare. just seems to be getting worse. miguel, what are you seeing right now? >> reporter: yeah. 24 fissures right now and it is getting worse.
a voluntaricanologist said it'sa bit of lava that's capable. this i believe this is fissure 22. it is just become active again and started to mountain out that lava. this is fairly small by some of them that we have seen and growing. now it's looking ten to 15 feet out there and that live camera we have had up digitally for a couple of weeks we have moved it and if you look at that camera now that i believe is fissure 16 to see from here. keep in mind, everything that you are looking at now two weeks ago that was form land. it was all green. it was cows out to pasture. it was perfectly lovely and now it is complete lava field. several dozen feet now of lava if not hundreds of feet of lava in that area. this is becoming very active, as well. one of the biggest problems that people here will face in the
next 24, 48 hours, the trade winds that typically flow from the north to the southwest basically of the island. they're going to change directions and start blowing north and east and that will hit communities like puna and possibly hilo. much bigger populations and the young people, the older people, anybody with breathing problems could have a serious issue. a lot of sulfur dioxide in the air and just causes everything from hoiks to nausea to a bad throat to just about everything you can imagine so it could be a real problem for people in the days ahead. >> miguel, if kilauea outright erupts is there an indication of how big it could be? >> reporter: what they're modeling right now is 1924. that's the last time it erupted in a large manner and what they're seeing is the crater inside kilauea has expanded from 12 acres to 90 acres.
as that soil falls in, the summit itself shrunk and thinking it could be like a 1924 level which was ash for about two weeks. 20,000 feet in the air. ryan? >> wow. incredible. miguel marquez, you and your team stay safe. next, in the midst of a volatile time in american politics, cnn looks back at a tumultuous year that changed this country forever. a preview of the new original original series event "1968" next.
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tour turmoil, tragedy and trump. looking back at the year that changed american history forever. marked by contentious presidential election and a raging vietnam war and the assassinations of martin luther king junior and robert f. kennedy. >> my father really focused on the people in this country. his appeal was to the most disenfranchised. people from harlem, oakland and farm workers. very similar to martin luther king focussing on the poor and working people. >> in the aftermath of dr. king's assassination, it's scott king to make the notation change was needed now. >> my husband always said if anything happened to him, to carry on his work for his
people. >> she was always an activist. before martin was an activist and she continued to be outspoken in order to make the point that you can kill my husband but this movement is going to go on. >> cnn's anna cabrera sat down with three special guests to learn more about tonight's episode. >> let me start with you, with all of the upheaval we talk about in today's politics, american culture. we think about 1968 and really, it's no comparison, is it? >> no, i mean, we live in anxious times now but 1968 was a time of upheaval, just remember some of the horrific events of the time. dr. martin luther king junior is assassinat assassinated. robert kennedy is assassinated. the country is divided and against a war in far off vietnam. the democratic party is imploding. there is a sense of tension and
there is a violence in the streets and unrest in the streets. 1968 was a time when america was tearing itself apart and no one knew what would come next. >> let me ask you about the youth movement. you've written a lot about this and the massive protest in 1968. do you see connections between those demonstrations then and what we're seeing today with the youth movement, particularly when you look at the call to action on gun reform following these school shootings? >> absolutely. i mean, right now we're seeing the first mass student movement since 1968 and the high schoolers now in '68 in the late 60s was mostly college but high school was also really involved in opposing the war and millions and millions of students were taking to the streets and it's important to remember back then 27 million young american men were eligible for the draft. and so it galvanized the entire
country. we're seeing that. to a smaller extent but in a similar way now today and i really think '68 was a blueprint for the student movement. >> david, i want to ask you about the politics, specifically the presidential race of 1968. it was interesting to say the least. you've worked on some pretty contentious presidential elections in your time advising president obama in 2008 and 2012. how do these recent elections compare to the race in '68? >> well, '68 was an astonishing race. you had an incoumbent president beaten and shocked the nation withdrawing from his race for reelection. you had the emerging of robert kennedy as a candidate. i believe robert kennedy would be elected in 1968 and he was assassinated, he would have lived through that. i remember that with great sadness and you have a race
between a very damaged vice president hubert humphry who emerged as the democratic nominee and was carrying lyndon johnson's water into that race. you had richard nixon and let us not forget george wallace. george wallace, the segregationist governor of alabama who ran as a third parody candidate and by the way, you talk about were there roots of today's. look at george wallace and donald trump and look at the themes and thoughts. >> provocative. pioneered themes familiar with people today. >> to find out, no one is above the law. >> richard neixon campaign engages in the 1968 campaign,
which is it establishes contact with the government and encourages the government to obstruct a u.s. diplomatic effort to end the war in vietnam and they are doing this because they know that hubert humphry, who is inching closer and closer to richard nixon in the polls might win the election if the democrats are viewed as the party of peace so richard nixon actually obstructs through a u.s. attempt to try to end the war. >> that was before watergate. >> well, that lays the ground. >> yeah. >> because nixon comes into office with a big secret. >> lbj knew about this and didn't want to effect the election. >> yes, that's a big -- >> sounds familiar. lbj goes to humphry and says this is for the election. if you want to use this information, you can. hubert humphry says no, i won't. >> talk about the assassinations of martin luther king junior and
bobby kennedy. so we have a civil rights icon, a social justice icon being killed. >> i think it was so profoundly devastating for everybody in the country who cared about those two men and it also ultimately disenfranchised many of the youth of america who held up so much hope with both of those men. >> david, you were one of those young people in 1968 as a teenager, you say the events of that year really had an impact on you in the career path you pursued. >> well, look, i can't -- it's hard to describe what it was like to be a young teenager in that time and, you know, i came of age in the kennedy era. i'm an idealest still and believe in the idealism the kennedys stand for and there was a feeling that something bigger
than one person had died with robert kennedy and i remember being hoing home alone and seei bulletin martin luther king was killed and seeing the haunting tape of him talking the night before how he might not get to the promise land but as a people, we'll get to the promise land. i remember getting up and putting the chain on the door in my apartment in new york city, just out of a sense of dread and fear and of what might come next. it was a really, really dramatically haunting time. so just to harken back to your initial theme, you know, we live in times now but nothing like this. it really felt like a coming apart of our country and as a young man, i felt that profoundly. >> david axelrod, thank you-all for joining us. >> thank you. the cnn original series
"event 1968" area next right here on cnn. and that does it for me this weekend. thank you so much for watching. have a great week and a very special memorial day. ♪ ♪ >> the enemy is not beaten but he has met his match in the fiel field. >> i want to say hello to mom. she's worried about me. hello mom. ♪ the vision that was planted in my brain ♪ >> dianna ross. you how many years old? >> 23