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tv   Larry King Live  CNN  July 19, 2009 9:00pm-10:00pm EDT

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everyone who comes here says the same thing -- you can almost still smell the fear, the sweat, the death and decay. the pain is palatable still. it's history you tell yourself, but the wounds still linger and we must never forget. -- captions by vitac -- >> larry: tonight, a prime time exclusive, go inside the gates of never land. see where michael jackson lived and danced. raised his children. his brothers and friends tell us about michael before the money problems, the scandal. and debbie rowe may fight for the kids. michael wanted his mom to raise. will she win?
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plus, one of michael's final rehearsals caught on tape. you're looking at michael two days before he died. this was in the very arena that will host his memorial service. all next on a very special edition of "larry king live" on location from neverland. good evening under a spectacularly beautiful night in central california. we're at the neverland valley ranch, formerly known, by the way, as the sycamore valley ranch. it was renamed neverland after the movie of peter pan. this is an exclusive with "larry
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king live" and with jermaine jackson, a former member of the jackson five. indeed, jermaine sang the co-lead with michael for a number of years. before we talk about this incredible place and first thank you for coming. >> thank you. >> thank you for flying up with me. you were a nice companion. we want now watch this tape of your late brother the last 48 hours before he died. watch.
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>> larry: all right. how does that make you feel? >> he looks great. strong. very, very strong. >> you saw reports of him looking bad, doesn't look bad to me. >> he looks incredible. very strong. >> larry: so how does it hit you now, jermaine? >> it hits me very, very deep. very hurting in paining, the world's paining, my family's paining because he's gone too soon, too soon. >> larry: what's it like to be here? >> it's wonderful to be here. >> larry: explain. >> this is his creation. this is his -- like i said, this is the ultimate serenity at its highest level. this is his wonderment, his joy, his happiness, his peace. and i feel him everywhere. i feel him all around here. he's never left. >> larry: the thing that hit me the most, others may have told you this, is i expected to see
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some kind of, for want of a better term, a honky-tonk atmosphere. >> what do you think? >> larry: beauty, serenity, calmness. don't feel like wearing a tie. this is just relaxing at the water. we're going to take a little walk later over to the tree where -- i can't -- i'm totally taken aback by it. in a plus way. >> tell me this, with all the negative things that they tried to say, that they said about this place, do you feel that it was representative of what you said? >> larry: if there was negativity, i don't see it here now. >> thank you. >> larry: this is really a beautiful, beautiful place. let's talk about -- how did you find out your brother died? >> i was on the other side of town in azusa and i got a call from you guys on my wife's phone. >> larry: cnn? >> yes. and they said did you know that
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your brother was rushed to the hospital? i said what? so i called my mother immediately and i got her on the phone and she said so a little time went by and i she was on her way. spoke to janet and i spoke to a few of the siblings. then about 45 minutes later, then i called my mother back and i hear this sound in her voice saying that he's dead. just the feeling of emptiness came before my body, because to hear my mother say her child is dead and my brother is dead, i've never ever thought that i would ever hear this from her lips. >> larry: did you go right over to the hospital? >> immediately, larry. i had to go a different route, and once i got closer to where he was, i could see the helicopters in the sky and that really brought just a chill over my whole body. once i entered into ucla, i went
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straight for my mother to see how she was. and she was sitting there and i guess she was there but she wasn't there. and i consoled her and hugged her, and i went to see my brother, michael, i went to look for him. >> larry: where did you see him? >> i saw him laying in the room and he was lifeless, breathless. and he just, as if it was a shell and he wasn't there. >> larry: what do you do at a moment like that? do you say something? what do you do? >> i said, michael, why did you go? why did you leave? why did you leave me? what was going through my mind, larry, i wish it was me there instead of him. >> larry: really? >> yes, because i loved michael so much. it's a different love. all my family, siblings, the world loves him. but i just felt a special
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connection with him because just going back over memories how my father used to keep us in the same rooms because we were on tours so we were the lead singers. and just memories all came back to me. everything. everything. >> larry: are you wondering why it happened, how it happened? >> i was most concerned about that, but i was also concerned about the fact that he wasn't here anymore. what was i going to do, because i felt like a major part of me just disappeared. >> larry: so you say coming back here is okay for you? not hard for you? >> not at all, larry. because this is his creation. this is his joy. this is his fantasy land. whatever he called it. but it's neverland. this is the ultimate happiness. >> larry: how are your children taking it? they were very close to him. >> yes. it's unreal. the children, they loved uncle
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michael and they -- all the siblings just felt that. he played with them. he would come over and play hide and seek in the house, because we grew up doing this. >> larry: and he was always a man child. >> yes, i'm the same way. there were things about that. >> larry: how are his kids? >> his kids are strong. they have a lot of love and care and they're playing with my kids, and they are just being strong. but they're -- it's what it is. >> larry: more from beautiful never land, never, neverland with this, i call it never neverland because when you come here you call it never, never, neverland. >> you never want to leave. >> larry: you're not kidding. we'll be right back. ♪ you and i must make a pact we must bring salvation back ♪
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♪ i'll be there ♪ i'll be there >> larry: we're at the neverland ranch, north of santa barbara, the home of, hard to say, late michael jackson. this is an exclusive primetime special for "larry king live" on cnn. and we're spending time with jermaine jackson, we'll check in with ted rowlands in a moment. one thing about katherine, your mother, do you think it's proper that she be responsible for the kids? >> yes, i think it's very
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proper, because the way my mother raised us, the way we know how she's very -- just the love, the joy, and making sure that they'll be okay. i thought it was the right choice. >> larry: age any hindrance, her age? >> no, because she has a staff and she's always with all of our kids. there's 23 grandchildren. >> larry: what do you make of the ex-wife possibly seeking custody? >> we'll see, larry. the will is what it is. and the will was really written well and it was executed by the executors and they did a great job. it's what it is. >> larry: so you don't think she has a shot? >> well, no, no. because this is what michael wanted. we're looking at michael. this is all about michael. this is what he wanted. >> larry: michael had a great friend in miko brando, michael was best man in miko's wedding, and ted rowlands is with miko. ted?
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>> reporter: we're at the train station, one of the most memorable images of neverland ranch, if you've seen video out of here, it's sort of like the disneyland train station in that they have the flowers and the clock and there's really a gorgeous part of the neverland ranch compound. and miko, you've spent a lot of time up here. this place is so big. obviously this isn't just for decoration, this train station was a real train station with a real train. >> real train, steam-engine train, large one. he had used it for years to get from the residence up to the theater and the zoo. >> which is about a quarter mile away. above this fireplace, miko, was a tribute to katherine. >> there was a plaque there that he had made for his mother, because he named the train after his mother, "the katherine." >> so the train was actually called katherine. >> yeah. >> a lot of people would come up here just to hang out because, of course, there was, as there
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around the entire compound -- >> before you reached the train, you would stop here and have your cap sheen know if you want, ice cream, candy, candy apples, all the candy you could think of before you ride a train over to the theater. >> reporter: and people would hang out and sit here and watch these monitors. michael would put on videos on each of these monitors. same video. >> right. he would put videos, whoever wanted to sit here and watch them on all these screens, sit here and eat your candy, all the sweets that you would want. and the kids would hang out and watch the videos all night long. >> reporter: this is just a minuscule part, obviously, of the compound here. one small portion of it where people would come and hang out. the outside, here is where the train would come through, miko, and the marks you say sort of show how much it was used, huh? >> correct.
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that shows you how much steam went through underneath there. every time you would blow the whistle, that would have the effect on the brick like that. >> reporter: you say michael used to -- >> blow the whistle right there and make it loud. you could hear it over the whole valley, you could hear it over the whole property. once that whistle went, you would know the train was here. >> reporter: for you coming back here, what are you feeling? >> numb, numb. i wish he was here. just numb. >> reporter: all right. larry, this is the train station. we'll be here for the hour showing you much more of neverland ranch. larry? >> larry: thank you. thank you, miko. thank you, ted. did you ride that train a lot? >> many times, many times. it left from the train station to go to the theater, down to the theme park. >> larry: was this things that michael probably dreamed about as a child? >> this is what he was about, just the joy.
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he started out as a young kid on stage and never having a childhood. and this is -- this was the ultimate playground. >> larry: this was the childhood relived? >> yes, exactly. we would come here and relive our dreams and our kids would come and parties and birthdays and just, you never wanted to leave. >> larry: some beautiful statuaries. remember, they're only using 37 acres out of almost 3,000. when we come back, you're going to see part of those 3,000 acres. wait until you see what's coming. don't go away. ♪ i'll reach out my hand to you ♪
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>> larry: a little while ago, jermaine and i took a little ride up to the gazebo. you couldn't have walked it because this is a big place. jermaine, we need to say this is unbelievable. where are we? >> we're looking over neverland. this is what we considered to be the ultimate joy, the ultimate happiness, the ultimate wonderment, the ultimate peace. neverland. >> larry: this is one small part of this whole picture, right? >> yes, this is one small part. there is so much more -- there are other valleys beyond these hills here that are just flat surfaces. mt. katherine around here.
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>> larry: the same for your mother. is that it up there? >> it's the part that's shaved off there. mt. katherine. it's just a place where we would come with all the children and there would be birthdays and fun and the times we wanted to get out here it was booked for bus loads of just kids who were dying with this and that and unfortunate, wheelchairs. and the theme park was this way beyond that way. wheelchair ramps. >> larry: lot of underprivileged, poor kids, right? >> underprivileged, poor. they would have a wonderful time. >> larry: what's that way? >> that way is just where we used to go around and act crazy and ride horses and stuff. it's just so much land to still develop. but here's where he considered his happiness. this is what he felt -- >> larry: did he see this first? how did he pick this place?
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>> well, i understand when they did the video "say, say, say," my sister la toya was here and michael and paul mccartney and he really liked it. to back up, i had a ranch in hidden valley. and michael would come over and he loved what i had out there because i had swans and everything. he said jermaine, i'm going to buy a beautiful ranch one day, because he loved the ranch. and this is -- i think that's what inspired him to do this. >> larry: you spent a lot of time here in the heyday? >> a lot of time. a lot of time. >> larry: i don't think the general public would have any concept of what neverland is. i think that thought would be to his rides and games and toys. there was all that, right? this is so much more. >> yes, with our family, larry, we travel so much. i can see bits and pieces of different parts of the world here. that's what's great -- >> larry: you see europe here? >> oh, yeah. you see all types of things. that's what michael enjoys.
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he brought bits and pieces of places he enjoys into his heyday. >> larry: what is it like for you to stand here now at this place that he loved so much and know he's gone? >> larry, it's so hard. but at the same time, i feel him. >> larry: you do? >> yes, i feel his presence, because this is his creation. this is his idea. to come here and to feel him here, i'm happy. and i really felt -- feel this is where he should be rested because it's just him. listen, it's serene. it's wonderful. >> larry: do you need the state to change that? >> larry, anything can be done today. >> larry: the law says you have to be buried in a cemetery. i think that's the law. >> people who make the laws -- >> larry: they can change it. this is obvious, would be one of the magnificent burial places in the world. >> tell me what impression you had when you first came in? >> larry: i couldn't believe it. i don't know what i was
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expecting. >> same impression i had the first time i came. it's the kind of place when it's time to go you don't want to leave. you want to hide, you want to chain yourself to a tree. or something. you don't want to leave. there's so much joy and happiness and at the same time to think about that certain people tried to turn this into a negative place, for him to bring kids here and this and that for their own reasons. that disturbs us the most. >> larry: that hurt him, didn't it? >> it hurt him tremendously. not only him, our whole entire family. our kids come out here, there's candy, and right in that space right there where you see the little kids sitting on the moon there, that's the grand station for the steam train to go from there to the theater down that way. and he got the only steam operator in the nation to come here and work this steam train. >> larry: thank you for showing us this. i have never expected it nor
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have i ever seen anything quite like it. >> thank you so much, larry. >> larry: thanks, jermaine. >> it means a lot to all of us. i think i'll go with the preferred package.
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good choice. only meineke lets you choose the brake service that's right for you. and save 50% on pads and shoes. meineke. >> larry: well, we have moved from our position back over there to one over here. kind of dramatic, beautiful place, but also with a story to tell. jermaine, where are we? >> well, we're right as you come in, and this is a very special tree here, because this tree was the tree that he would climb in and think and write songs. like -- >> larry: write songs? >> yeah, "we are the world," "dangerous." this was his childhood theme. >> larry: let's walk over here.
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>> to climb trees, yeah. >> larry: explain to me what he would do. he would climb -- he would start from where? >> right from here, he would climb up here. >> larry: climb up here? go. don't kill yourself. >> go here. >> larry: handles on the tree. >> yeah, and he would go all the way up and find a place to sit which was right around -- oh, here. up there. >> larry: up there? >> right up there. and he would sit there -- >> larry: up there? >> yes, up there, and he would sit there and write songs.
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it's peaceful, larry. do you hear this? listen. >> larry: okay. it's peaceful but scary. >> no, because it's that childhood thing. you're never afraid when you're a child to do things. >> larry: so he would write the words there and musical notes? >> exactly. just lyrics and melodies and ideas. >> larry: let's take "we are the world," would he come down then and sing it to you? >> he would come down and take the ideas and go to the studio, implement that and put it on the -- put it into motion. >> larry: did he ever tell you how he got the idea to write in a tree? >> larry, you can write anywhere. you can write while you're driving. >> larry: but why in a free? i know. >> because you're up high, it's god's creation. it's a tree. it's peaceful, it's green. it's by the fountain, and it's very peaceful. >> larry: it's also one darn beautiful tree. >> yes. it looks like it's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years old.
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an oak tree. >> larry: yeah, beautiful. hey, this is some place, you know. i've got to tell you, i could live here. >> i could live here too. >> larry: we'll be right back. don't go away. ♪ just call my name and i'll be there ♪
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♪ you and i must make a pact we must bring salvation back ♪ ♪ where there is love i'll be there ♪ ♪ i'll be there ♪ i'll reach out -- >> larry: i keep thinking, jermaine, about double emotions.
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i mean, there's a lot of plus emotions. there's got to be a lot of sad emotions. the world shared him. >> yeah, but it's -- it's a joy here. and i really feel my mother should come back here and the rest of my brothers and sisters, and just feel his presence. feel what he's created, because it will never leave. it will never die. he's here. >> larry: they have not been here since? >> no. jackie has been here, tito has been here. the rest -- >> katherine hasn't, your dad hasn't? >> they're coming. i'm pretty sure. >> larry: what can you tell us about the plans for tuesday? >> well, the plans for tuesday is fine. we were just delegating certain things to certain family members. but we've always been focused on knowing what we wanted to do. >> larry: is it 10:00 a.m.
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tuesday morning? >> 10:00 a.m. tuesday morning. >> larry: staples center downtown. >> staple center, downtown. the hardest thing is where do you rest michael jackson? where do you -- it's like everything he did was so over the top, and there are people coming from all over the world in groups of 20s and hundreds of thousands. >> larry: how are you going to hold -- staples holds 18. did you ask about dodger stadium? >> we worked with the city authorities and they're trying to work with the timeframe we have. they're hoping everybody is safe and things are going to be locked down pretty much. >> larry: and burial now, the california law says you have to bury them in a cemetery, right? >> that's pretty much, yes. but as you know, the ones who make the laws can also change them, too. i would love to see him here. >> larry: do you have a place for him here? >> yes, there's a special place right over near the train station, right over there. >> larry: that we saw before?
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>> yes. it's hard, larry, to point where your brother is going to be -- it's tough. >> larry: what kind of service will it be? >> larry, we -- we want the world to take part in this event, but at the same time we're mourning. we're mourning because this is the most incredible human being there will ever be. and i'll tell you why, because i'll quote something to you. i'm starting with "the man in mirror." i'm asking him to change his ways. no message could have been clearer. if you want to make the world a better place, you have to look at yourself and make a change. i say if you want to make the world a better place you have to
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look at yourself and make a change. when you listen to the content of songs, the melodies, the message, the videos, the concerts, that's who he was. that's who he is. >> larry: how early did you sense that in him? >> we were all raised like this, larry. >> larry: did you know it when he was 12, 13, that he was special? >> yeah, because michael was so so young, he was doing the james brown -- he could see something and do it. if he wanted to be a tennis player, he would have been a tennis player. he does everything at the highest level. he's gifted and he was a gift from allah and i really feel his time on this earth that he was here, certain people tried to create animosity about him and things that just wasn't important. look at the man who he is. >> larry: will it be -- well-said. will it be a religious ceremony? >> listen, we were all raised
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as -- we were raised as jehovah's witnesses to tell you the truth. >> larry: uh-huh. >> as we started traveling, we started embracing different religions. but the most important thing my mother and father instilled the right morals and principles in us, which is allah, which is god, jehovah. >> larry: and all-faith, kind of? do you know what the ceremony will entail? >> no, it's going to be -- we want a lot of the industry to be there as much as possible. but larry, there's no place even big enough. we talked about the washington monument, the coliseum, we talked about a lot of places. larry, thousands are coming just from the uk. there are 20,000 people -- >> larry: i've been to staples.
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i don't know how they're going to hold it. >> i said the same thing. but we have to do something. >> larry: obviously. we'll be right back. don't go away. ♪ i'll be there to comfort you
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♪ i'll reach out my hand to you ♪ ♪ i'll have faith in all you do ♪ >> larry: we're at neverland
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ranch. you're looking at the shot, looking right toward the main house. beautiful place, by the way, magnificent kitchen here. by the way, jermaine just told me there will be a private ceremony tuesday morning, family only. and then the 10:00 -- >> larry: and special guests. and the 10:00 will be the large memorial service. and there will be many others, right? >> singers and -- >> larry: in other parts of the country? >> yes, exactly. >> larry: so tuesday is just the start of what will be a series of memorials. back with more of jermaine right now after ted rowlands and miko brando. ted?
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>> reporter: larry, we're at the main house just inside the main foyer. indication of what the entire house of 13,000 square foot plus house is like, a lot of wood, just absolutely gorgeous. as you can see. and miko, our tour guide here, one of the things you see is the sycamore logo. michael jackson bought this pretty much in tact in terms of the main house. >> correct, yeah, this was the logo of the previous owner, called the sycamore valley ranch. so all over the property you see these little sycamore trees. >> reporter: you say michael first stayed here when he was working on a video with paul mccartney. he just came here and was basically put here. you say he couldn't get it out of his mind. >> he stayed here while he was doing the "say, say, say" video. he enjoyed it, he liked it and wanted to buy the property. he went on tour and during our tour in '88, he had bought the property. he said, miko, i got the ranch. >> reporter: the ranch. this room is what? >> this is the living room. a piano used to be here, a castle he had built sitting over here, living room chairs, furniture, sofa, the tv on the wall. he had a beautiful marble front
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here in front of the fireplace. he had an oscar in the right side of the fireplace. >> reporter: the oscar from -- >> "gone with the wind." >> reporter: that he paid millions for at one point. here we're going into the kitchen, larry. miko, you say this was the spot like any family, this is the spot where you hung out. >> yeah, this was the focal point of the house, i think. we would all meet here, my father would eat here, michael would eat here. everyone would meet here. we would watch tv with the fireplace here. sit here on the barstool here with a kitchen full of food. video games here on the table. flat screen tv here on the wall. we had nice furniture. everything was really warm. >> reporter: so your father, you and michael used to sit at the table over there for hours? >> there was a round table with i think eight chairs. we would have our meals here, most of our meals here, breakfast, lunch and dinner. if we changed it, we would eat somewhere on the property. this is basically where we would all meet and talk about our day here at neverland.
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>> reporter: larry, we'll be back in a bit. later, looking at michael jackson's room and more parts of this fabulous estate. >> larry: thanks, ted. before we go to break, what do you make of diana sams being named? >> diana ross? >> larry: diana ross i mean. >> i think it's very interesting. there's been a long, close relationship with michael and diana for many, many years. and i think it's great. >> larry: so she would be a proper person to handle in case something happened to your mother? >> i think it's okay, really. right now my mother has the children. >> larry: right back with more with jermaine jackson and neverland. don't go away. taking its rightful place
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>> larry: in case you just joined us or have been on
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another planet, we're going to show you, again, a portion of that incredible last rehearsal of michael jackson. watch. ♪ don't really care about us ♪
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>> go down in history for the greatest demonstration of freedom in the history of our nation. ♪ some things in life they just don't wanna see ♪ ♪ but if martin luther was livein' he wouldn't let this be ♪ ♪ all i wanna say is that they don't really care about us ♪ >> larry: that's unbelievable. unbelievable. back with more. with rheumatoid arthritis,
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couple more things on the will. are you surprised none of the siblings and your father isn't mentioned? >> no, i'm not surprised. what makes me angry is, larry, the will is exactly michael's wishes. and they should be carried out exactly the way michael wanted them. anybody that tried to contest this will is not following michael's wishes. >> larry: it doesn't bother you your father wasn't mention? >> it doesn't bother me. my mother's fine. we're all fine. most importantly, it's not about money, larry, it's not about property. we're a family. we're a family. we don't let that get in the way. that's not important to us. that's not important. >> larry: did you hear any of the results from any other autopsies? do you know anything more? >> no, when it comes to these things that they're saying, excuse me, but i'm very uneducated when it comes to
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drugs and i want to be that way. >> larry: when it comes to the second autopsy, do you know anything? >> no, i don't. there will be all kinds of the most important thing is we have to look at who michael really is. >> larry: you have been saying that. >> that's so important because he gave his all to try to change this world and make this world a better place and that's what's important. all this other stuff it's not important, larry, please. >> larry: you're doing your best to change that. i just have to ask the questions. you're doing a fine job. thank you. thanks for being with us. we just have to know. >> thank you. >> larry: the public is very interested in your brother. >> thank you. >> larry: ted rowlands stands by with one more with miko. ted? >> we're inside michael jackson's bedroom suite. with miko brando, our tour guide. you're looking at the doors. you can see the locks on the door. privacy was key in this room, obviously. >> he liked his privacy.
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when the durs doors were open, it was okay, but when he locked it, he wanted his privacy, he had his privacy. >> this is one of the bathrooms. there are two bathrooms in this suite, and this is the area where michael jackson also slept sometimes. there's a staircase up there and a small bedroom upstairs. you say he slept on both levels. >> he slept wherever he felt like sleeping. he'd crash out. he had a choice of two. >> let's swing around here. this is a massive bedroom suite. let's get to all of it. out here is the view. it's gorgeous. you were married out there. obviously, it doesn't get much better than that for a view outside your room. >> no, we had a great -- there was a gazebo out there by the tree. we got married there. everyone was out there. it was beautiful. the flowers, the grass, everything was just immaculate. >> when you look at the house now, it is unfurnished obviously. give us a sense how different it was fully furnished. >> it was the place. i have seen a lot of houses in my life, but this was the house. >> and you can see here is the other bathroom and the big tub and real quickly before we go, larry, there's been a lot of
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talk about this closet. it is massive and in the corner of it is a secret compartment or secret little area. you said this was sort of a safe room just in case. >> this was just someplace in case something ever happened where he'd go. >> thanks. larry, back to you. >> larry: thanks. we have a moment left with jermaine. you realize, of course, that the public is interested in all these questions and we've had a beautiful day here at neverland, but there's great interest. you changed it, he changed the world. all this interest in him, in the will. in how his family is affected. you do understand that? >> yes. larry, here is a man who gave his life for humanity. he actually gave his life -- >> larry: you don't think there's an interest in him? >> there's a tremendous interest. my brother is the king. he's broken all kinds of records even to this day in the billboard charts and this and that, but all these things are material. we can't take these things with
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us. all we take is the good deeds that we have done this time that we were on this earth. i do feel he was given to us specially, and they've taken him back. allah have taken him back. those who have tried to ridicule him and make a mockery of -- >> larry: asking questions about the will isn't ridicule and mockery. it's just public interest. >> what i'm saying is if michael makes a will, no one should contest it -- >> larry: i got you. thanks, jermaine. we're going to do lots more with you. >> thank you. >> larry: jermaine jackson. the son of depack chopra is next. ♪ (announcer) because active protection matters.
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>> larry: we continue our prime time exclusive at neverland ranch with gothram chopra. he worked with michael on "dangerous" and "history." and you know his father deepak. this is obviously not your first visit here. how does it feel to be here without him? >> you know, i was not sure how it was going to feel. it kind of feels nice actually, certainly not without him, but you know, the last few years michael used to say this had turned into a house for him, it was no longer a home. i think there's a tranquility back to it now that we're celebrating him again. i think you can feel that here. >> larry: an extraordinary place, isn't it? >> yeah. i was interested to get your reaction. i have been here but -- >> larry: i had no idea. i'm flabbergasted in a very positive, beautiful -- isn't serenity a good word?
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>> serenity, tranquility. what's missing is the monkeys running around with the trainers, we haven't had a water balloon fight. >> flamingos. >> we've had a lot of fun here. we've come in some sort of mourning, but that's what was here before. >> larry: has the loss sunk in? >> i don't think so. it's starting to. i was overseas when it first happened. i was shocked, not entirely surprised, frankly, because of knowing michael and knowing of the things he had talked about, but i think i'm starting to feel a little bit, you know, more sadness actually. >> larry: when was the last time you saw him? >> i saw him actually a few months ago. i spoke to him a few weeks ago. >> larry: did he look well? >> to me, you know, it's subjective, but, yeah, michael was always -- he was always delicate and small and thin, but he looked no different than he had for years to me. >> larry: did you meet him through your father? >> originally, yeah. i have known him now for about 20 years. >> and how old are you?
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>> i'm 34. >> so you were a kid. did you stay here as a kid? >> the guest house which is right over there. that was where i stayed the first time i came here with my father. we ate in the main house over there, which is the first time i met michael, and i grew up with michael jackson as an idol. i had the silver glove. i bought a red leather jacket and cut it up so it looked like it was from "thriller " much to my parents' horror. but when i met him, it was just like a dream come true. >> larry: this is like -- then this had to be an adventure for you. you were 14. what was it like? >> it was like walking into a fairy tale. i mean, you know, the music, just the elegance, the fun, the carnival rides. that first time it was a quick visit just with my father. i subsequently came here through the years and brought my cousins and friends, and michael just loved having people. he loved playing. it was great here. >> larry: did you ever buy any of the stories, the molestation stories, all that?
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how did you feel? >> i felt conflicted. but i can only speak to my experience. coming here as a 14-year-old for first time, spending all this time with michael and never feeling uncomfortable in his presence. >> larry: first time you met him, what was your impression? >> i was in awe obviously. i was certainly speechless, but he immediately put me at ease. the first "batman" movie was just coming out and he asked me do you want to -- he had a movie theater here. he said do you want to go to a private screening just you, me, and my dad, and i said, yeah, absolutely. we went and watched, and i saw it like a month before it came out. he immediately put me at ease. i felt comfortable. he felt in some ways, while he was probably 30 years old at the time, he mean i felt like a kid himself. >> larry: so you don't feel sadness here? >> i do. i think -- >> larry: you feel both though? >> yeah. i feel both. i melo


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