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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  October 28, 2011 1:00am-2:00am EDT

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important to me, the aesthetic, but also somebody that's put lots of people to work and created lots of happy families. they really like being with me. i'm very happy about that. >> donald, thank you very much. that's all for us right now. now "a.c. 360" with anderson cooper. we begin tonight with rick perry. he's considering opting out of future debates, which is a choice that any candidate is free to make. but keeping them honest tonight, the reason he's giving simply doesn't add up. his campaign manager says they are, quote, examining the opportunities and opportunity costs, unquote, of each upcoming debate. shortly before airtime, the campaign put out a statement backing away from the idea of ducking future debates. but last night on fox, governor perry seemed to make it pretty clear, talking about why taking part in the debate so far was a mistake. >> well, i don't think anybody's ever run the perfect campaign, and actually, these debates are set up for nothing more than to tear down the candidates. it's pretty hard to be able to sit and lay out your ideas and your concepts with a one-minute response.
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so, you know, if there was a -- if there was a mistake made, it was probably ever doing one of the -- ever doing one of the campaigns when all they're interested in is stirring it up between the candidates instead of really talking about the issues that are important to the american people, about how you're going to get us back to work. >> bottom line, he says the debates are rigged for conflict and against the candidates. but keeping them honest, the candidates themselves agreed on the rules for all the debates, including the recent one we held in las vegas. after most of governor perry's complaints break down. remember, his first beef that the debates are set up for, quote, nothing but conflict. here's a question i asked that night, giving him an opportunity to respond to criticism of his health care record. >> governor perry, in the last debate, governor romney pointed out that texas has one of the highest rates of uninsured children in the country, over 1 million kids. you did not get an opportunity to respond to that. what do you say -- how do you explain that? >> well, we've got one of the finest health care systems in the world in texas.
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as a matter of fact, the houston -- the texas medical center, there's more doctors, nurses go to work there every morning than any place else in america. so the idea that you can't have access to health care, some of the finest health care in the world. we have a1,200-mile border with mexico. and the fact is, we have a huge number of illegals that are coming into this country. and they're coming into this country because the federal government has failed to secure that border. but they're coming here because there is a magnet. and the magnet is called jobs. and those people that hire illegals ought to be penalized. >> now, you can agree or disagree with what he said, but it's a perfectly clear, on-point, straight-forward answer to a pretty simple, straight-forward question. a question, i might add, we specifically designed to give him a chance to set the record straight, which he did, and not to start a fight. yet in the very next sentence, it was governor perry who starts a fight with a sucker punch, a direct personal attack. we'll roll back the tape just a bit to see how he makes such a sharp turn from his answer to an attack.
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>> and those people who hire illegals ought to be penalized. and mitt, you lose all of your standing, from my perspective, because you hired illegals in your home, and you knew about it for a year. and the idea that you stand here before us and talk about that you're strong on immigration is on its face the height of hypocrisy. >> governor romney? >> rick, i don't think i've ever hired an illegal in my life. and so i'm afraid -- i'm looking forward to finding your facts on that, because that just doesn't -- >> i'll tell you what the facts are -- >> rick, i'm speaking. i'm speaking. i'm speaking. >> so objection one, the debates are designed for nothing more than tearing down the candidates, that doesn't hold up. governor perry himself took that opportunity and others to tear down mitt romney with what was clearly a prepared attack on the governor. mitt romney did the same in return. three years ago, hillary clinton did the same to barack obama and vice versa. some use a scalpel, some use a
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meat ax, but it's hard to imagine how to stop it, especially when candidates can pivot as governor perry did, from the question you ask to the answer or response they want to give. >> governor perry, the 14th amendment allows anybody, a child of illegal immigrants who's born here, is automatically an american citizen. should that change? >> let me address herman's issue -- >> actually, i'd rather you answer that question. >> i understand that. you get to ask the questions and i get to the answer like i want to. and herman talked about -- >> that's actually a response, that's not an answer, but go ahead. >> and he did. just as some of the other candidates steered the dialogue in the direction that suited them or pressed for more time, or simply took more time. it wasn't the format, again, that they agreed to, it was their own behavior that truly shaped the debate and what they wanted to do in that debate. governor perry also complains that debates don't give candidates enough time to lay out their ideas. but i want to show you an example how he used what seemed like ample times in a fox news debate last month.
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a lot of political observers point to moments like this to explain why governor perry might want to back away from debates, and maybe that's really behind his talk lately of backing away from the debates and also why he's slumping in the polls. >> i think americans just don't know sometimes which mitt romney they're dealing with. is it the mitt romney that was on the side of against the second amendment, before he was for the second amendment? was it was before he was before the social programs, um, from the standpoint before he was up for standing roe versus wade, before he was against roe versus wade. he was for race to the top, he's for obama care, and now he's against it. i mean, we'll wait until tomorrow. >> that debate was september 22nd. the next day we did some polling and that was the last time rick perry was in the lead at 30%. the next poll by fox showed him
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in second place. nearly every poll after that showed him third at best. again, after this story circulated all day, the perry campaign came out with a response. spokesman ray sullivan telling us, "there have been eight debates so far, the governor has participated in five of them, but there are 18 debates scheduled between now and the end of january." sullivan went on to say, "at some point, the candidates have to spend time out with voters in iowa, new hampshire, and south carolina. so i simply question whether 18 was a realistic number. that's all. we haven't ruled anything out at all." joining us now, democratic strategist james carville and erick erickson, someone excited by the perry candidacy when he first got in the race. erick, what do you make of this. do you think he'd be saying there are too many debates, we're taking up too much time with this stuff? >> of course not. and it looks like the end of january, there would be 21. i don't blame any of the candidates for saying in the december debates, most are on small networks and they're not going to be watched, yeah, they might want to skip one or two, not all of them.
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i think the bigger issue here, anderson, is the absolute lack of message discipline. he released his economic plan last week and we spent a week talking about his birth certificate comments and now we're going to spend another week talking about his debate performances and it's all because of the perry campaign. >> james, what about this? what does this say about rick perry? >> you know what, i think the biggest mistake he made was on august 11th when he got in the race. and i don't blame erick for being frustrated. i think a lot of conservatives thought this was going to be somebody that was going to articulate his position. he's for a flat tax, and in the same day, he says, but you can fill out the regular form if you want to. a part of the attraction is you get rid of the irs, that doesn't work. then he says in his book he's going to eliminate the department of education, then he says, no, i'm just going to cut it in half. and then he said he's not going to debate, now he says he will. and the stupid birther stuff, he steps all over himself. this guy, i thought he would be a pretty good candidate, i the turned out to be just a terrible candidate. i don't know what's wrong.
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i think people are just sort of exasperated. and now he says he's not going to debate. you wouldn't debate barack obama? that doesn't fit in the republican culture, you're running away from a general election debate. and there you're just kind of mano y mano. it looks indecisive. a terrible campaign. >> erick, i saw you wrote, i don't think the republican campaign understands how uninspired rick perry has left his base of supporters. and is rick perry wasting our time? you were a big fan of rick perry's early on. are you one of those supporters, you've talked about, who's left been uninspired? >> i wouldn't say i was a rick perry supporter. i certainly like the guy, he's a friend, he announced in my event. you know, i am actually really surprised that a governor of the state, the second largest state of the nation, he's been governor for a decade, gets on to the national trail and just
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flops over. the campaign has been completely off message. they've yet to find a message. he's actually got some very good policy issues from a conservative perspective, but the campaign can't find its foot. and i get the strong sense, anderson, that they don't really understand what their own base of supporters, a lot of whom i hear from on a regular basis, are really dejected right now, looking at this race. mitt romney has capped at 25%. everyone comes up behind mitt romney, falls behind, gets ahead of mitt romney. they think, this is the guy who should be able to beat mitt romney, yet he's flailing around like someone's cut his tendons or something. >> james, what is the problem, though? because he's the governor of the state of texas. he's, you know, an accomplished politician. is there such a huge difference between running for a statewide office and running for president? at this stage, in the primaries? >> yes. yes. and apparently, he don't -- he's in over his head. it's evident. it's almost like -- like
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somebody needs to do an intervention on this guy and say, hey, rick, let's go back to texas and, you know, have some tequila shots and chicken-fried steak and maybe go out and go to some ball games. he's obviously in over his head. and the sooner he gets out of this, the happier he's going to be. this is not -- >> you're saying there's no way he can come back? >> -- it's a slippery slope out there. well, i don't want to say there's no way, but unless something really changes here, it's just been awfully disappointing. and i don't see him -- i thought he'd try to get a message -- look, i was kind of hoping he'd do well. i wanted the thing to protract out. i wanted him and romney -- i like a good campaign. erick can understand that, just as someone who likes politics. it's good for cnn, it's good for all of us. it's all fun, you know? and this is turning into a big nothing. it's just nothing, and it's really disappointing on some level. if anything, i'm a little mad about it, that -- >> yeah, i -- >> i want it to be more interesting. >> i would give that to james, but i would say, he does have two months, he does have more money in the bank than anyone but romney.
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he just brought in some really good team players this week, but they'll have to act very fast. because this debate issue really overshadows what is this lack of message discipline. he can't talk about the issues he wants to talk about because he's having to play defense on the stuff that his spokespeople have put out there or he's put out there. >> interesting stuff. erick erickson, appreciate it, james carville, thanks very much. let us know what you think on facebook or on twitter @andersoncooper. coming up, the occupiers say they speak for the 99% of americans who are not super rich. we'll talk to cornel west. >> what do you think my -- what percent of my income -- >> get rid of the bush taxes! >> no, just give me a percentage. what percent? >> marginal. >> so you think -- >> he's a cpa, ask the tax guy. >> what do you think's -- >> what's fair -- >> also tonight, jack hanna on why the few surviving animals from that private zoo in ohio
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where the guy released all the animals and then shot himself, why those surviving ones could end up back where the nightmare began, and why they got a welcome reprieve today. and later, did michael jackson give himself the fatal dose that killed him. we'll talk to our two experts, marcia clark and dr. sanjay gupta when we continue. [ male announcer ] every day, thousands of people are choosing advil®. here's one story. [ regis ] we love to play tennis. as a matter of fact it was joy who taught me how to play tennis. and with it comes some aches and pains and one way to relieve them all is to go right to the advil®. i have become increasingly amazed at regis's endurance.
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find new solutions to manage risk, capital and employee benefits, so american business can get on with business. ♪ well, no sign the occupy wall street movement is dying down, but protesters will soon face a serious challenge from the weather. rain today in lower manhattan's park could become snow this weekend if the forecast is correct. protesters who describe themselves as the 99 percent of americans who are not super wealthy also face a challenge to explain what they want. up close tonight, recently investment strategist wall street ceo and radio host peter schiff went down to the park with a sign reading, "i am the 1%, let's talk." he also had a camera crew. let's watch. >> you're in the 1% and we're in the 99%. >> wouldn't you like to get into
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the 1%? >> no -- >> you don't want more money? >> i would pay my share, and get rid of the bush tax cuts immediately! immediately! >> let me ask you a question. hold on. >> warren buffett and his secretary, i would -- >> let me ask you a question. hold on. >> -- i would pay my share so these folks could pay their student loans, just like you would! they don't have a car! >> what do you think my fair share is? what percent of my income -- >> get rid of the bush tax cuts. >> just give me a percentage. >> marginal. >> so you think -- >> he's a cpa. ask the tax guy! ask the tax guy. what's fair for his clients? >> what do you think -- >> runs close to 17%. a whole bunch of people, about 50%, don't pay pay taxes. >> what do you think i should pay? what would be fair for me? >> i don't know what your income is? i can't tell you that. i believe in a progressive income tax. that is fair. >> look, i'm paying -- well,
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that would be a huge tax cut for me. i pay much more than 35% of my total income in tax. i am giving the government half of what i earn. do you think they should take more? >> i think we should get rid of the bush tax cuts. >> that means i would be paying more than half of what i earn to the government. >> there's no way you can cut all of the expenses you want without increasing revenues. >> if you raise my taxes, maybe i'll just decide to sell my business and fire 150 people. >> peter schiff joins us now. he's the author of "how an economy grows and why it crashes." also with us, princeton university professor, cornel west, author of more books than we've got time to mention, and co-host of the smiley and west radio program, that's also been part of these protests quite often in recent months. both, thank you guys for being with us. peter, one thing we haven't seen a lot in occupy wall street protests is wall street
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businessmen like yourself going down there. what are you trying to accomplish in doing that? >> well, you know, i sympathize with the situation that they have, but i'm trying to help encourage them to direct their anger towards washington. you know, it's big government that has wrecked the u.s. economy, not capitalism. they need to understand that. and if they really want a bright future for this country, it's capitalism that's going to provide it, not government. >> cornel west, what do you think of what mr. schiff is saying here? >> well, one, i just think it's a beautiful thing that brother peter goes down for dialogue. democracy's all about public discussion. i think it's very clear that the occupy movement is very much not about hating any individuals, but rather we hate injustice, that we hate obscene inequality, and i think that peter would agree that there are human values that are not reducible to market price. there's precious human life that's not reducible to market calculation, and the real question is, how do we deal with social justice and market price? there's always attention there, and that's where the tire hits the rope. >> peter schiff, do you think these protesters should be angry at washington, not wall street. but wall street didn't force
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investors to give themselves million-dollar bonuses. do you think that any of the anger at banks and corporations is justified? >> no. >> none? >> washington did create that environment. it was the federal reserve that kept interest rates down at 1%. if we didn't have a central bank, keeping rates so low, we never would have had all the speculation, we never would have had the mortgage bubble. and in fact, it was freddie and fannie, government-created entities, that were insuring all the mortgages. that was responsible for the bad behavior. you know, the people down there -- >> but aren't people responsible for their own bad behavior? aren't companies and individuals supposed to be responsible, rather than just blaming government for bad behavior? >> well, as i -- look -- >> if the government liquors you up and now you're drunk and you do stupid things, you've got to understand why wall street made all these mistakes. remember, i was there for years warning about these problems. i saw this crisis coming from a mile away, because i saw how government was distorting the market. >> professor west? >> no, no, no, peter, it was wall street that put the pressure on government to
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undercut glass-steagall so investment banks and commercial banks could merge so they could trade rather than lend, and speculate rather than provide resources. that was -- >> i don't -- >> let him finish his point. i'm sorry, professor, finish your point. >> -- with politicians who are themselves, either shaped and forced by big money or sometimes involved in legalized bribery. i think you got the story wrong. it was the influence from outside, it was the 1%, the oligarchs putting their pressure on government. >> the problem is that washington shouldn't have that influence to give out. the problem isn't washington having the power that people are lobbying to benefit from. but, remember, glass-steagall was put in place to counteract the damage of another government regulation, which was guaranteed bank accounts. the government has already poisoned the banking system by guaranteeing everybody's account. that's not capitalism. if the government wasn't guaranteeing bank accounts, banks would be a lot more responsible, because the depositors would actually care what the banks did with their money.
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but the government has told the depositors not to care. it doesn't matter what the banks do, because the government's going to bail you out. >> professor? >> no, no, no. we need a governmental guarantee, because the level of insecurity and uncertainty was so pervasive in the 1930s that you could not get a financial system off the ground. so you had to have some -- >> that's not true. >> you had to have some basis -- >> that's just not true. >> the free marketeering that was going on in the 1920s didn't require some kind of government intervention to allow some stability? are you denying that? >> no! >> are you denying that? >> no, it was the federal reserve -- yeah, i am denying that. it was the federal reserve in the 1920s that was too loose. that's why we had a stock market bubble in the 1920s. we had a depression because roosevelt and hoover didn't let the free market work. they tried to prop everything up artificially, they interfered with the free market. we didn't even get out of the depression until we ended the second world war. that's how long the government delayed that correction.
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>> no -- >> yeah. >> no, no, we need to have coffee. we need to have coffee and cognac to do this. i think you're absolutely wrong on that, my brother. >> this is going to require both coffee and cognac? uh-oh. >> yeah, i think we're going to need a little cognac to work this out, brother peter. >> and we're not going to solve the problems you're talking about -- we're not going to solve the problems you're worried about by raising taxes on the people that produce the wealth, that create the jobs, that start the businesses, that produce all the -- >> no, no, peter -- >> -- the poor, it's free market capitalism that's going to do it, not government redistribution. >> no, if we had taxes on financial transactions on stocks and on derivatives -- >> why? >> why? because it's unproductive speculation that's been driving so much of this problem. >> i agree with you. that's being driven by the federal reserve. but i don't want to send more money to washington. that's not going to grow the economy. that's going to grow the government. >> that's greed! that's corporate greed on wall street unregulated by any ideals of justice. >> no, no, because the government -- because the government has taken away all
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the market regulations and replacing it with less productive, less effective government regulations. let interest rates go up, we're not going to have all this speculation. we'll have real investment on main street. but we're not having that now, because the federal reserve and the government are getting in the way. >> but there's a gap between small business and mega business. it's the mega business that's not subject to market discipline. small business has been subject to market discipline. how does that deal with mega business, you've got to decentralize it. if they're too big to fail -- >> but the reason that gap is so big -- the reason the gap is so big is because of government policy, because of the fed. if you go back to a real free market capitalist system, that gap is going to close on its own. >> no, no -- how could that be? how free is your capitalism? we had child labor laws, we wouldn't even have the weekends if it wasn't for the labor movement. that was free market capitalism too. >> no, it was the free market -- no, it was the free market that
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ended child labor and working on the weekends by raising the -- >> no! it was organized people from the -- >> no, it wasn't labor. that is nonsense. that is liberal propaganda. no, no -- >> -- sinclair and others. >> though, no. it's free market capitalism that lifted the standard of living. that's what made workers more productive, because we gave them tools. it was capitalism that created that from savings, from investment, and all that came because we had a free country. we had limited regulation, limited government, limited taxation, and we had a huge lead and we blew it all because we embraced socialism. >> cornel west? >> we didn't have free trade unions until the 1930s because of the power of the bosses from the unions. >> thankfully. and the unions destroyed the businesses. >> that wasn't free market capitalism that created -- >> we've got to -- >> the auto workers in detroit made more money before the unions than they did after the unions. >> i've got to jump in here.
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it's a fascinating discussion -- >> i wish we had more time. i want to debate my brother peter directly on this. >> we'll have both of you again. we'd love to have both of you back on, and with a lot longer time, maybe next week. >> i appreciate that. >> it's a good dialogue and one that's important. peter schiff, thank you. cornel west. >> thanks, anderson. >> thank you very much. appreciate it. just ahead, the family of moammar gadhafi plans to file a lawsuit. find out who they're targeting and why in a moment. also tonight, why three leopards, two monkeys, and a grizzly bear who survived a night of terror after their own released them and shot himself will be staying put in an ohio zoo, but the widow of the man who released them wants them back. jack hanna joins me with new developments in a moment. n greas like giving me a healthy scalp and great looking hair. you should make that eight things. dude, why don't you just use the stuff? [ male announcer ] head & shoulders: seven benefits. every bottle. yeah, maybe not.
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tonight, a new twist in the story that sends zanesville, ohio, into a panic last week. dozens of wild animals including this bear were on the loose for hours, released by their owner, terry thompson, who then killed himself right after releasing them. armed police were sent to the scene and by the next morning, 49 of the exotic animals were dead including 18 bengal tigers. tigers and lions roaming three in zanesville. the farm where thompson kept them as pets is just a few miles from a high school. a grizzly bear, three leopards, and two monkeys were captured alive. amazingly, no humans were hurt in this bizarre incident. it's not exactly what police train for. they didn't have tranquilizer darts on them and only an hour of daylight before darkness fell and the animals would have possibly escaped even further away.
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today the ohio department of agriculture issued a quarantine order, meaning the animals will stay at the zoo for now. thompson's widow was planning to take custody of them. joining me now, jack hanna. you go a call that miss thompson was heading to the zoo to take the animals back, supposedly with a horse trailer. from what i read, what went through your mind when you got that call? >> like you, anderson, i mean, i went to new york last night to do some shows, and all of a sudden i got a call at 5:30 this morning saying she's coming to get the animals. i said, you're kidding me? there's no way. you're going to take them back there, where the carnage happened a week ago? it's impossible. and i said, you've got to call the governor. and i said, plus, they're in quarantine. they called the state, and the state goes, what are you guys talking about? so the head of the department of agriculture issued the order, they're to go nowhere. because, anderson, even an animal from an accredited aca zoo, we go through stringent
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process of being accredited. every animal is put into quarantine, anderson, for at least 30 days, depending what type of animal, it could be longer. so just remember something. these animals went through you know what last week. so we went there to get them calm and get them eating, and the testing, which is to start any day now, but we don't want to put the animals down again after they just got there last week. so i said, those animals aren't going anywhere. i don't care if it's state or federal law, because we've got to figure out what to do with the animals and see if they're free of disease because of our collection at the zoo. it's unbelievable. >> do you have any reason to believe that the situation at her property is an appropriate location for these animals to be living? you know, what were the conditions like? is she capable of caring for these animals? >> anderson, the question is, her husband went to prison for a year.
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she left him. remember that? my question is, i understand that she didn't go back to take care of them. now all of a sudden she wants the animal back? she says she has a love for them, but you don't love something and put them in the horrid conditions that were up there. there's no way, over my dead body, and it might be that way soon, that those animals will go back to the same conditions. let's say they got out again, can you imagine what they would think of state of ohio. these new rules will be the most stringent rules in any state in the state of america. i haven't announced this yet. perimeter fencing, an inspection by a veterinarian once a year, a people made up of the ohio natural resources, a zoo person, about five people to inspect that place once a year, plus to see if they have the proper habitat, proper insurance policies, as well as acquisition disposition, where the animals come from, where they're going to. off all those few things i just mentioned, there'll be some more, by the way, i would say about 90% of the people or more won't be able to have a pet lion or a grizzly bear running around in the backyard. >> it's fascinating stuff.
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jack, we'll keep in touch with you about this and see what happens. appreciate your time. coming up, testimony in the conrad murray trial about whether michael jackson was addicted to painkillers. we'll have the latest from the courtroom. plus, a lot more ahead. but first, fredricka whitfield joins us with a 360 bulletin. >> in eastern baghdad now, at least ten people including two police officers are dead in two roadside bomb attacks targeting a police patrol. more than 30 people were injured, according to witnesses. moammar gadhafi's family is planning to file a war crimes complaint against nato, believing that nato actions led to his death. that's according to a lawyer for the family. in response, nato says it is, quote, strict conformity with the relative u.n. resolutions, end quote. and on to turkey now. an 18-year-old boy was rescued from the rubble of an apartment building almost 100 hours after the 7.2 magnitude earthquake hit. the death toll has risen to 535 with more than 2,300 people
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injured. and it's a real-life slumdog millionaire story. a 26-year-old man has won $1 million after answering every question correctly on the indian version of "who wants to be a millionaire." the new millionaire grew up in one of the poorest states in india and before the game show, he was making about $120 a month. anderson? you can guess what he's going to do with that million dollars now. >> yeah, what? >> he's going to buy a new house. of course. everyone usually buys property. he lives with his wife, his mother, and five brothers, and so he's planning to pay for one big home so that all of them can live a little bit more luxuriously than they have been. >> wow. well, i hope he saves some as well. fredricka, thanks very much. just ahead in the program, explosive testimony in the michael jackson death trial about the singer's alleged addiction to a powerful painkiller. what an addiction specialist said on the stand today and what the medical records show about how much demerol jackson was taking. also, what one of the most hated men in america said in his jailhouse interview with barbara walters. bernie madoff speaking out when
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crime and punishment. the michael jackson death trial is on track to go to the jury early next week. today was a big day with defense calling its last two witnesses, both of them doctors. an addiction specialist and an anesthesiologist. most observers agree those witnesses could make or break the case against dr. conrad murray. randi kaye joins me now. randi, we said it was a big day with the defense pinning their hopes on the anesthesiologist
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who took the stand today. what did he say? >> well, we're talking about dr. paul white. and he is an anesthesiologist, but he's also an expert on propofol, which is the powerful anesthetic believed to have killed michael jackson. but what he really needed to do was to dispute the testimony from the prosecution's expert anesthesiologist, dr. steven shafer. he said that the only scenario that fits is that michael jackson was on an iv propofol drip for more than three hours before dr. conrad murray even knew that he had stopped breathing. now, dr. paul white doesn't buy that at all. he says that dr. murray never abandoned his patient. listen to what he said in court. >> this, let's deal immediately with the elephant in the room here. >> elephant in the room? >> the elephant in the room being conrad murray has been accused of infusing a dose of propofol, and leaving his patient.
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can you justify that? >> absolutely not. >> now, this witness really could make or break the case for dr. murray. i mean, the defense really put him on the stand to prove that michael jackson was an experienced drug user who may have even known how to use a syringe and may have injected himself, may have overdosed on his own, by accident. he was also there, really, to toss some water on the prosecution's theory that dr. murray used an iv drip or an infusion to give michael jackson enough propofol to stop his heart. here's more of today's testimony. >> i read all these documents and i was somewhat perplexed as to how the determination had been made by essentially all of the experts that dr. murray was infusing propofol. because in my examination of the documents and the evidence that was described, it wasn't obvious to me. and i thought that there were
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questions if, in fact, murray had administered the drugs that he described in his conversations with the police department and the doses that he described, i would not have expected michael jackson to have died. >> now, anderson, conrad murray, as you know, had told investigators that he only gave michael jackson 25 milligrams of propofol, but there was a nearly empty bottle that measured 100 milligrams, found in michael jackson's bedroom. so the defense wants the jury to believe that michael jackson may have reached for a syringe and injected himself with more propofol, after dr. conrad murray had actually left the bedroom. but the state's anesthesiologist says that even if michael jackson did that and dr. murray was out of the bedroom, that this would still be considered abandonment by dr. murray, and in a sense, of course, it would still be considered negligence, which is what the state is trying to prove, anderson. >> and the addiction -- what stood out about the addiction specialist?
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>> well, his name is dr. robert waldman, and he was pretty good on the stand today, in fact. he knows what addiction looks like. he said that michael jackson fits the profile. he never treated michael jackson, but he did say that he was addicted to demerol. and if you're going through a demerol withdrawal, then you are -- it acts -- it gives you insomnia. you can't sleep. it almost acts as a stimulant. he said michael jackson was absolutely going through this type of thing. here's part of what he said on the stand today. >> i believe there's evidence that he was dependent upon demerol. based on my prior definition and what's known about his public behavior and this course of treatment, that he was probably addicted to opioids. >> so this is pretty critical, because if they can prove that he was desperate for sleep because he was going through insomnia, then the jury might buy the fact that he was desperate enough to inject himself with propofol without realizing that it would kill him anderson?
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>> i want to bring in chief medical correspondent, dr. sanjay gupta is with us. the idea that he might have been addicted to demerol, is that consistent with the behavior that we know he was taking part of? >> well, dr. waldman made this conclusion by basically looking at documentation of his demerol use over the -- >> he was getting demerol from his dermatologist. >> he was getting demerol from another doctor, a doctor that is not allowed to testify -- the judge precluded him from testimony in this particular trial. but that's been documented. he received high doses of demerol, enough that dr. waldman said it was consistent with an addict, as opposed to someone who's demerol naive. and the second part of what he was saying is that someone who's withdrawing from demerol, starting to taper their doses, behave in a very consistent way as well, including feeling just miserable, feeling like the worst flu they ever had, which is something that michael jackson also complained about. >> i also want to bring into the conversation marcia clark,
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author of the book "guilt by association," a former los angeles deputy district attorney marcia, what did you make of the testimony today? what did you think was the most important? >> i think the fact that dr. white was trying to establish that if dr. murray's statement to the police is to be believed, then he did not commit an act that was criminally negligent and michael jackson had to have been the one that administered the lethal dose himself. of course, the prosecution can come back and say, look, you know, that's gigo, garbage in, garbage out. you're believing his statement to the police in order to come to your conclusion. the jury is not required to believe that statement. and given dr. murray's behavior in hiding the propofol, in not telling the doctors about the propofol for days after michael jackson's death, the jury has ever reason to disbelieve what the doctor has said about how much he, himself, administered. >> and marcia, the defense has really been pinning their hope observe the defense of the dr. white. did he live up to all of those expectations? >> he's trying to, anderson. i don't know whether he can or not, to tell you the truth.
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i think the prosecution has built an extremely compelling case. just the fact that their own expert, the prosecution expert said, look, even if michael jackson was given the amount that dr. murray said, even if we believe the statement that he only gave 25 milliliters of propofol, he left the room. the fact that he left the room is in itself criminally negligent. and as you know, you've questioned doctors on your show, anderson, that have said, yes, that's absolutely so far below the standard of care that itself is criminally negligent. i do believe that any doctor that's even marginally ethical would have at least required mr. jackson to hire a crash cart, hire a surgical nurse, have these people on hand 24 hours, so that even if dr. murray has to leave the room, michael jackson is never left alone. and i think that that -- he didn't even do that. and i think that that ultimately is going to be what wins the day for the prosecution. >> sanjay, do you think dr. white's testimony medically speaking was credible? >> well, this guy in some ways is considered the father of propofol.
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he's the one that started investigating this drug early on as a possible anesthetic. he's widely regarded as his knowledge of the subject. but he did two things, the big thing marcia alluded, it's bizarre to give this outside of the hospital. he said, that's an off-label use of the medication. a lot of medications used off-label, not really commenting on strange it was. >> sanjay, thanks very much. marcia, thank you. coming up, bernie madoff speaking out about his imprisonment. and also coming up, courtney and doug stodden, they fight back against the halloween hater and fight their way back on tonight's ridiculous. we'll explain, ahead. ♪ [ cellphone rings ] cut! [ monica ] i have a small part in a big movie. i thought we'd be on location for 3 days, it's been 3 weeks. so, i used my citi simplicity card to pick up a few things.
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♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ [♪...] >> announcer: now get a $250 airfare credit, plus save up to 65%. call 1-800-sandals. certain restrictions apply. > anderson's back with the ridiculist in just a moment, but first, a 360 news and business bulletin. bernard madoff says he's sorry for ruining his family, but he's happier in prison than on the outside. that's what the ponzi schemer told barbara walters in a jailhouse interview. he also said at one time he considered suicide, but didn't have the guts to do it. on wall street, stocks surge after the european union agrees to a deal to manage its debt crisis. the dow gained nearly 340 points and hit the 12,000 mark for the first time since august 1st. and this will make you feel a lot better about fast food.
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a florida army wife got a big surprise at a chick filet. amy reid takes her family there every tuesday night. what she didn't know was that this tuesday night would be family reunion night. just take a look. now, that is her husband, army staff sergeant tim reid, delivering chow from the kitchen, and himself from afghanistan. nice surprise. anderson? >> erin burnett "outfront" is ahead 11:00 p.m. eastern. erin, what's next? >> anderson, we're going to talk to the guy behind the now famous or infamous guy, depending on how you see, for herman cain. mark block, who smoked in that ad. find out what he was thinking there, and find out how much money herman cain raised this month. we have that, also the super committee. they really matter, but does congress understand how important that is? we'll talk about that in a big all right that's getting submitted by democrats and republicans. maybe a breakthrough, anderson.
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plus, we can't resist, from scott brown to rick perry, we've got some jokes tonight. back to you. >> erin, thanks very much. coming up, earlier this week, we told you about the october misadventures of our sort of favorite, maybe not, december couple. now doug and courtney tell all about what got them thrown out of that darned pumpkin patch. the ridiculous is next. congratulations. congratulations. congratulations. today, the city of charlotte can use verizon technology to inspire businesses to conserve energy and monitor costs. making communities greener... congratulations. ... and buildings as valuable to the bottom line... whoa ! ... as the people inside them. congratulations. because when you add verizon to your company, you don't just add, you multiply. ♪ discover something new... verizon.
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time now for the ridiculist. we've got to do it. we're adding once again the halloween haters who got courtney stein kicked out of a pumpkin patch. we told you about this earlier in the we newlywed/reality star seekers went to pick pumpkins. tonight, we're going to hear from courtney and doug, their perspective on the incident. there's that to look forward to. first, a little background from monday's show. according to radaronline, some parents who took their kids to said pumpkin patch were not in the halloween spirit, and for whatever reason, thought courtney and doug's pda was just inappropriate. the halloween scrooges also reportedly took issue with the way that courtney was dressed. after multiple complaints, she got thrown out. she had no other choice but to walk her festive stripper boots right out of there and show off her pumpkins on the side of the road. there are other photos, but we
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can't show them on tv. they show a little too much crack'o'lantern. >> the women were coming up to the manager and complaining. >> because of the kids? >> yeah. >> i don't know if you picked up on this, because it was super subtle, but i think courtney was implying that the women wanted her gone for some reason other than "the kids." >> so a lot of the kids thought that she was like this pumpkin patch princess and there was a handful of concerned moms, who went to the owners and said, get her out. >> and their cleavage was hanging out quite a bit. >> she is such a kidder! she's 17!
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so smart. those concerned moms, mind your own cleavage, that's what i say. the moms were having a good time, the dads were too, according to doug. watch him to explain as dr. drew and the audience try to keep a straight face. >> we even overheard a dad say, oh, look, to his little girl, he said, oh, look, honey, they have a pumpkin patch girl this year. >> the dad loved it! >> so a lot of the kids thought that she -- >> you can see more with courtney and doug on dr. drew's "life changers" november 7th. wait a minute, november 7th? that's more than a week away. i don't know if i can wait that long. i guess in the meantime, we'll have to make do with some of their older interviews, like this one from "e!" online. >> there was nothing illegal or immoral about it. it was just that we found ourselves falling for each other. >> and playing on wings of love
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together. >> you guys both made mention a couple of times about wanting to do this, you know, biblically and morally. talk to me about the issue of premarital sex? >> okay, i don't want to hear the answer to that question, first of all. i do, however, have a few questions of my own. courtney, what makes you so enchanting? why are you so beguiling, yet so elusive? what is your halloween costume going to be this year? will it perhaps be, i don't know, something provocative? and most importantly, what the hell are you doing with your face? i have to know. all right, sorry. no choice. i've got to see it. can we please roll my favorite clip from "gma". >> people are welcome to their opinions. that's what the world is about. if they need to feel this way, that's theirs to hold, not ours. >> what is -- it's like a desperate -- it's like a silent, desperate cry for help, is what that is.

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