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tv   Book TV After Words  CSPAN2  January 3, 2010 11:00am-12:00pm EST

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cities. with lyndon johnson i said, well, he understood national power better than almost anyone. so if i can can take his life, i can show how national power works. >> and you say you won for the third in your series, you us won the national book award. what's the effect of that? >> well, the effect on it, the effect on me was terrific. i was happy to win it. [laughter] >> did it change book sales? did it anything like that? >> it -- i'm not sure i know, i remember the answer to that question, to be honest with you. it did very, you know, that book did well. i can't remember if this had an impact on that, i'm sorry. >> author robert caro. ..
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>> host: welcome, jane goodall. just list the things they have accomplished which would probably take most of the interview, so we will move through an abbreviated version of that, founder of the jane goodall institute, author of groundbreaking studies of the
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chimpanzees that you observe. the author of several books, including "hope for animals and their world," which we're here to talk about today. and we might as well get to it, this book is a series of case studies, and they are case studies of species that have so far been saved from extinction. why did you write it? why did you choose the particular species? >> guest: i wanted to help people understand that in spite of, no question we have done so much damage to our planet, and it is right to be concerned, and very concerned, but there are too many people who take this on board and therefore give a. they leave hope and decide it's not worth doing anything. and my crazy troubles schedule which takes me 300 days a year all over the world has enabled me to meet some extraordinary people who've done some
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extraordinary things, have become passionate about a particular species or even an ecosystem, and even when they are told there's no way that you can say this, it's too late, they won't give up. and so these are success, and they are delivered is selected, mostly from the people at ashley met or had introductions to. the book would be many times longer, there's more stores than this. in fact, some of the book is on her website. the publisher said no, you can't have everything. so it's chosen to give people hope, to help people understand that even though in some cases we reach the end of the road with a certain species, just have some determination and some obstinacy and the courage, really, to withstand all those who say it's a waste of money, that the animals will die, let them die with dignity in the wild and to leave them be.
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they refused to listen and they somehow find the money and energy and save them. 's. >> host: you can see the passion that the people have been working to save these animals felt for them in the names they have given them. like i was looking through and keeping track, there are chapters about vancouver island marmot named oprah winfrey, and franklin. are whooping cranes named tex and george pindar falkenstein scarlett and rhett. these are very personal issues to the people who are involved. arctic? >> guest: absolutely. it's interesting, because of course when i began studying the chimpanzees i had no idea from the point of view of strict science i shouldn't have given them names, not names, but numbers. well, i didn't know that. it seems ridiculous to me. so the chimpanzees all had numbers, and i described their
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personalities and their minds and their feelings. when i got to cambridge university to get my phd, i was told this was all wrong. but thinking back to my childhood teacher, i knew that scientists were wrong and i was right, because that was my dog. and you can't have some kind of animal share your life and not understand it. of course, they have personalities, mines in the spirit of course they develop. but even today, there are people who feel, and probably rightly, that if they start talking in these terms about their animal, they will be less eligible to get grants from certain organization because it's too fluffy. it's too sentimental. >> host: is not scientific. >> guest: it's not scientific. >> host: on the other hand, you might argue that getting an animal a name might be a way to get more people to invest in that and what.
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>> guest: of course. >> host: to care about the future. >> guest: of course, it is. sometimes writing this book, it was too confusing to write about all these numbers. i thought i'd lost. i've lost what is number 49 versus number 57. so i gave them temporary names, just for the purpose of the book. i asked the biologist if they would mind, and they said no, they wouldn't. some cases though, interestingly, people stop naming simply because they are reintroducing them into the wild and they have such a high rate of loss that they feel they can't cope if they named them. so they just give them numbers. >> host: perhaps you should give some examples of some of the species that you write about in this book. i found him also interesting. maybe you should just pick one. did you visit all of these places, or most of them? where are some of the places you when? some of the more memorable.
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>> guest: i couldn't visit them all, but i certainly visited the whooping cranes. i visited the sanctuary indexes were the first block spends the summer. i visited the production breeding center near washington, d.c.. and best of all, i went and visited operation migration where joe duffy is teaching, his teachers are helping these crazy new migration or. i got to go out in an ultralight. so it was totally, totally fascinating. >> host: the whooping cranes of course is a burden that went completely extinct in the wild. >> guest: no, no, no. the original flock was down to 27. and they were summering in the preserve in texas. and then they nested somewhere north in candidate, but nobody knew where.
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and all the time the flock was getting less and less, and then one day some helicopter pilot was brunning, i don't know what he was doing, and he saw this white bird with a golden color, young. and that's where they were. they were nesting in buffalo park, canada. but this flock was down to 27. 2000-mile migration, getting less and less. if bird flu or something came along, then that would be the end of that. so that was why they needed to start a second -- a second group, but they had to teach them to migrate. they learn from their parents, and this was a new route, an ancient one, but no living bird knew it. so they trained him to follow the altar like. like bill trained egyptian geese to start with. >> host: ic. like a black footed ferrets and condors.
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>> guest: black footed ferret extinct in wow. california condor extinct in the wild. agni rabid extinct in the wow. so many of them. >> host: but all of the species to have in common, one thing, it seemed to me was that they all were to the point where we could have written them off. we could have just said forget it, let's pull the plug and go way. but it didn't happen. some of the incredibly inventive things such as using ultralights to teach migratory routes. >> guest: and my favorite story, one of them, the whooping cranes is george archibald who spends so much in the cranes worldwide, and they have this one female, and she had genes that they really, really wanted for their captive breeding, but she had been hand raised. so she wouldn't made with a grain. so george volunteered to do courtship dancing with her every day for, i think, something like a month, twice. and she did lay an egg and they were able to artificially
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inseminate it. and so her jeans are now all over the place. i love that story. one of my favorite pictures in the book. >> host: when you first entered tanzania, what equipment did you take with you, other than the pen and pad of paper? >> guest: we couldn't afford much. who was going to get money for this young untrained girl? it was crazy, wasn't it? >> host: just. >> guest: and louis leakey just went on and on, and finally a wealthy american businessman, said all right money for six months. we will see what happens. the british authorities what was then a british protectorate of, this young girl will not take responsibly, and that's what i had to have a companion. mom volunteered, which was amazing, you know. she was there for the first four months. and so fortunately, before the six months, money ran out. i had seen to making and hunting
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and sharing of food to were able to get more money to carry on. but what did i have? i had a pencil, a little notebook that fit in my pocket. and not very good but not good because we couldn't afford really good ones. and that was it. and close. and now, the biologist have the benefit for better and sometimes arguably for worse, of incredible technologies. tracking devices you can put on a dragonfly. satellite, satellite ratings of entire forest. >> guest: which we use a lot. >> host: is that -- that seems to be one of the other things at the species in this book have in common is that they have all benefited from the fact that these field biologists, and
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they're mad race to find out more before it's too late, have actually succeeded and have succeeded with the help of new technologies, new tools. and is that a reason -- >> guest: that's a reason for hope, but there are stories in this book dating back to pre-that kind of help, so people who struggled like some of the island birds, eyelids off australian and new zealand, for example, the early biologist didn't have access to that kind of tool. so was a hit and miss, try to hatch the eggs in incubators. like experimenting with the last of the black robins to try to increase the number of eggs that are late in the year by what's now commonly done double clutching. you destroy a nest. you know what put the eggs in
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incubators. then the paramedics another nest and you take those second eggs and have been hatched, and then you leave them with the third nested. >> host: how do i say this, the esoteric skill sets that fuel biologist have amazed me to be able to sit for days on end in the blazing sun and watch a bird, and a cage, to count as one early, i believe one early condor biologist, count the number of lies that get picked off its wings in the course of a day. >> guest: i didn't read that. >> host: i mean, whether any particular skill sets that you were impressed by when you, in your travels? >> guest: i was absolutely impressed by some of the rockclimbing. the story, one of the stories i love is the rediscovery of the
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lord house island sticker set, which is thought to be extinct for 80 years, then we discovered. it was reviving on a pinnacle of rock, miles offshore, with only one club of education on it, not very big. it was basically one bush. and how could this, this, you know, leafy, huge insect possibly survive there for 80 years? but the team went to prove it wasn't there. and lo and behold, they find it. but they had to climb these sheer rock at night. i mean, i said, you know, you're really making me nervous. just to think of it gives me the willies, but he's done it several times. the short tailed albatross going out to that island, extraordinarily, so difficult to get to.
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>> host: i must say though that there are -- there is some controversy attached to some of the techniques that have been used to bring some of the species back. there are people who argue that captive breeding programs are extremely expensive. hit and miss. and that they use up money that could be better spent on habitat or out in the field. well, that's the way the argument goes. >> guest: there's not much point in saving after that, putting money in that if you've lost the species in the wild. so most of the stories are kind of balance between protection and the wild and also some captive breeding. and captive breeding, if it's done right, and if the animals have the opportunity to learn some of their skills, i think one of the big travesties was self released versus harbor the. self release, which to me it always seemed better, you let
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the animal adjust slowly, he can go out and come back, you feed him, he learned the predators and things. versus hard release where you don't these creatures out in the middle of their environment and say bye, good luck. those actually don't work very well. >> host: i have noticed also while reading the book, or thought about the fact that, you know, in the time since you began your career in the time, the most recent of these programs, have been operating, many of the threads have changed. new threats have arisen. somehow become less pressing, but i -- i wonder how, whether you have ideas, whether you have been coming up with strategies to deal with, for instance, the bush meet poaching problem, the commercialization of that kind
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of hunting, or with -- >> guest: climate change trammeled or with climate change trade in human population growth. those three are the things. the push me, it would difficult, huge amounts of money are involved and i think it's really important that people understand that the bush meat trade is commercial hunting and it's very different from the subsistence hunting that's enabled people to live in harmony for hundreds of years. and is being made possible by foreign logging companies moving in too, will come in this case, the congo base and opening up the force with roads. of course, opening up a forest with rhodes is something that is damaging anywhere. opening of any peaceable tennis with roads is deadly for the animals living there. but in this case, it enables hunters to go from the cities into the logging to. they are shooting everything that elephants and gorillas and chimps, antelopes, monkeys and
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birds and bats that anything they can smoke. and then the trucks take it into the town. because so much money is being made, because politicians are sometimes involved, because there is very little political, in many cases, it's tough. and the only way that we're trying to make some headway is working with other ngos on the ground, working with, for example, the world bank. and working with industry like the logging companies and the miners to try and find a way to minimize this, and provide other ways of livelihood for them, for the hunters and other sources of protein for the people. >> host: i had a strong theme that came out of this book was the idea, well, there's a gentleman, a late jammin die tragically being a sherpa who work for the organization that i work for, the world wildlife
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fund who always said that conservation need to have a human face or a stuart. and that you are a big proponent of that. can you tell me a bit about, can we talk about an example of how that succeeded? >> guest: i will take exactly how i became involved. when i got to gombe in 1960, you could go all the way along the shore on the eastern shore, and it was chimpanzee habitat, all the way. there a couple of cars and villages. you could climb up the hills and look away from the lake to the east, as far as you could see. and then in the early '90s, i knew there was deforestation going on, but when i flew in a small plane over that whole area, it was utterly shocking. the hills were devastated. there were only two mini people living there for the land to support. the farmland was overused. the trees had all gone. farmers were trying to cultivate really ridiculous steep slopes,
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soil erosion, all the rest of it. so the question, how can even try and save chimpanzees? while people are struggling to survive. so that led to our take care program, tac re. and that's a program which is involving now 24 villages it was started by one project manager, george, who picked an incredible team tanzanians. they went into the villages. no white faces and sat down and talk to the african way. what can we do to make your lives better? of course, they didn't care about conservation dan beard they cared about health and education for their kids. so that's what we begin. and then gradually, talk to them about the kind of things that we hope that this program could do, better farming methods, ways of reclaim the overuse of farmland, working with groups of women to
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improve their lives through microcredit, tiny loans that they would pay back and get a bigger one, education, scholarships for girls, working with women. because all over the world, it's been shown that as women's education increases, family sized drops. and so we provide family planning information, and also hiv-aids education. and it took a while, but trust gained. trend towards all the family sized, and now, the last piece in this puzzle was finding up in the high hills about gombe really good coffee. they couldn't get a good price. there were no proper roads. so persuading some of the big specialty coffee rose, coffee rose to come in. is really good coffee, buy some, create a specialty brand, and give the farmers really good money. as a result of that, so much
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goodwill for our tacre program, that the villages have sat down with our gps specialist, satellite imagery, and they have put the 10 percent of their land that the government requires set aside for conversation now. in such a way that in forming a buffer between the tiny 30 square mile gombe national park and villages, and allow the chimps who were trapped in this little oasis of forest, to mingle, we hope, with other women groups. so it's a success all around it is help the people. it's helped the chimpanzees. >> host: in that sense, i don't know how to say, you actually can't put humpty dumpty back together again if you want to reconnect a fragmented habitat because there is a template there that you can use
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elsewhere. >> guest: i just did that about three months ago. i stood there with our project leader and looked over the previous hills behind gombe. on the trees are now 20-foot high. it's a very resilient. nature is very resilient. so now we are trying to replicate this around other wilderness areas. you know, it would work anywhere. australia, china, india, and so hopefully usaid loves it. they sent a 71 of their top project managers to see how it's done. and it's one of the examples i use in this book. >> host: i want to talk a bit more about, later, about the ways in which -- the ways that you might want kashmir or about how one goes about getting people to invest in his. obvious he, reading the book
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would be a start it but i want to know why it is you invested in a. you write about creating tarzan books, reading doctor doolittle. i find it difficult to think of you as jane, even though you are jane. you would have been a different kind of jane, i think, but where did your passion come from? >> guest: i was very jealous of that stupid jane. [laughter] >> host: how so? >> guest: because i wanted to be tarzan to make myself. [laughter] >> host: will. >> guest: but anyway, from the time i was born apparently i was only interested in animals, animals, animals. books about animals. 11 years old i'm going to go to africa and live with animals and write books about them. as you've all read it, girls didn't do that sort of thing. world war ii was raging that we didn't have enough money, even for a bicycle, let alone a car. this is what i never went to university. we couldn't afford it. but i had an amazing mother, and she would say, if you really
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want something and you work hard, and you never give up, you will find a way. everyone else was laughing at me. so it was animals, animals, animals that it was never just chimpanzees. that landed in my lap because i met louis leakey, and he had for a long time said ben looking for someone to try and throw some light on the behavior of our closest relatives in the wild, which he felt might help him to kind of gets out early humans might have behaved, because that was his interest. so the chimps were, i think, a really fortunate thing for me because they are so like us. and so it really help people to see that there isn't a sharp line dividing us the other animals. i think that's benefited other animals to. >> host: after we take a break, we'll come back and talk about this some more. >> "after words" and several other c-span programs are
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available for download as podcasts. more with jane goodall and john nielsen in a moment. >> "after words" with jane goodall and john nielsen continues. >> host: okay. welcome back to "after words." we are speaking with jane goodall about her new book, "hope for animals and their world." i would like to talk a little bit about children and nature. because in this country there is mounting evidence that kids don't play outside anymore the way they used to. i have three young boys.
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they play outside a lot, but mostly, they play on field surrounded by peers. they don't crawl around in the streambed. i don't know of anybody in my neighborhood that has a treehouse. and only one of them likes animals. in a significant way. and there is a concern that academics in this country, conservations in this country, because that is happening we will be raising a generation that would be less interested in saving some of these animals that you write about in this book are coming, have you heard about this phenomenon? does it happen outside of the diocese? what do we do about it? >> guest: all across europe, same thing. sinking in the u.k. and even deeper than concerned
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about conservation. it's been shown that young children need nature for healthy psychological development. trees and flowers and things like that are really important. they did a study in chicago where they took two and one aret lots, they made in. they did everything they could to greenacre the other one they left it, and the rate of crime dropped significantly in the area which they made green. so this is why, you know, people say to me, why have you left the chimpanzees? why are you working with children so much in our recent shoots program? so for two reasons. one is i have grandchildren. they are fine. they are in tanzania. they play like children outside. and my son was raised in tanzania. he did also, but i see so many of the people i know in the u.s.
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and europe who are just as you described, kids do not play out in the wild. >> host: you just mentioned the roots & shoots program. tell me more about that. that the global program. designed to, what, get kids to invest in nature? >> guest: it's a bit more than that. it's a symbolic name. if you imagine a small sea, let's take an acorn. we all know in a court is going to go into a bigger tree. and when it starts to grow, there are these little starts of roots & shoots and looks so me, and yet the life force in that seat is such that to reach the water, those roots can work through boulders and eventually push them aside. that little chute to reach the sunlight can work through crevices and a brick wall and eventually knock it down. so if we take the boulders in the wall to represent all the ills that we humans have inflicted on the planet, environmentally and socially, this is hope. hundreds and thousands of young
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people around the world can break through and make this a better world for all living things. the main message, each one of us makes a difference every single day and what impact the world around us and we have a choice. and every group that stands on, roll up your sleeves, get out there, every group chooses three different kinds of projects. one, to help people, want to help animals and that includes domestic animals. and want to help the environment we all share. and its preschool all the way through university. it's getting more and more adult groups like staff of a big corporation, senior citizens, places, it's in 111 countries. it's in every u.s. state. and it's right across mainland china, for example, and growing fast in india and australia. slowly in europe, but it is growing there. >> host: i'm afraid it's not
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just children who don't know what's out there. we live in a world now where wild places are isolated from the places where we all live. most of us. >> guest: accept that where urban sprawl in our way deeper and deeper into those last wild places, which is a total nightmare. >> host: gets. and i think as result, it's just not the same thing if you would see a tv or even in an imax theater. let me ask you this question. if you could take, you, the world that lives in the suburbs, to a place where they could have the kind of epiphany that turn someone into a field biologist that make someone want to take the monitor into the jungle to look at chimpanzees, where would you take them? how do you show them? >> guest: i've done that.
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i think you start with, it's really important that they don't go anywhere to exotic. but to go somewhere that's lovely, save, you know, not too filled with dangers. but where they can hear the birds singing. where they are our little clear streams, and they can see the fish and maybe some frogs. and perhaps, that kind of place. so they're not going to feel threatened and even that will threaten some young people. they are afraid of silence that they are afraid of the brussels of the night, but you know, we have taken young people into this kind of environment and seen the change. i know many people who take children out of this kind of environment, and it really -- it's really making a change. >> host: it has worked for me to take my children out into stretches of forest, and lay down on our backs and try to
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hear the wind coming through the tops of the trees. i've always thought that that's about my favorite sound in the world. >> guest: wonderful. >> host: but when i think about some of the far, more amazing site that the people in this book is seen, it's almost -- is a difficult thing to get across to people who have never been, not spent much time in a natural place, that such miracles can even exist, or even to explain the nature of those miracles. i was very lucky once. when i was a child, i live in a part of california that was near the california condor sanctuary. and that one point in my life i was standing on the edge of a cliff, where two prairie falcons casey kahne are down to the bottom of the cliff, and it flew straight up, 15 feet in front of me, right above me with its
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wings spread, making this roaring sound. and that's what i do today. that was it. i -- i tremble to think what will be lost if we don't -- if ways aren't bound to get across more -- a better definition of what is at stake here, of what john you to go i think the giants are going, the face of god. those are the moments that you see the face of god. do you have moments like that that you'll never forget? i would imagine that one of them might have been the time when you saw the chimpanzee pickup, what was a tool at a time when two was thought to be the province of humans. >> guest: that was pretty exciting, but my epiphany which
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linked me to animals or ever happened much earlier. in fact, i was only four and a half years old, and we went to stay in the country. we live in the city. we were arvin family. so i was given a job to help collect the hens eggs, and i was putting these eggs into my little basket. the hands were free in those days. they were not battery farms back then. and i couldn't think with the egg came from. where was the hole big enough for it to come out? i ended up hiding in the henhouse, and i apparently had there for over four hours and nobody knew where i was, but i saw an egg laid. and i can never forget that. so i'm always telling young people, they say, well, everything has been seen in everything has been discovered, there's no fun anymore. i said nothing to take away from you your own expense of saying something for yourself for the first time. even if it's been seen 1 million times before. you've seen it over with your
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patience, your determination. and so because, because the world is as it is today, i think it's really important that we realize that even something like a domestic chicken can turn a child on, and that starts the curiosity that ben is going to reach out to some of these more remote places. this is why i work so much of my time now to grow this youth programs. because, you know, i could kill myself trying to save chances and therefore is. and somebody else could kill themselves trying to save california condor's or black footed ferret pic but if we are not raising new generations to do a better job of caring for them, then we done, then work is useless. >> host: i do have -- i did have one or two modes while reading this book when i -- i found
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myself wondering whether, that this was a set of prescriptions that might not be enough to save some of my most, some of the most precious species on the planet. in particular, the tiger, for instance, which is in a terrible state. >> guest: and a polar bear now. >> host: and the polar bear. i mean, are there lessons learned that you learned in these case trees that you could apply on that rotter scale? i mean, the tiger, there may be as as few as 2000 tiger's less in all of the wild and all of its former range that it is my personal nightmare to have to say to my kids, you know, there used to be these amazing animals that walk around in the jungles in india. >> guest: it's my nightmare also. but i think there's no question, we will lose more. we can't save them all. we won't save them all. we won't have the political
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will, the money. to come to your tiger, maybe that's an easy problem than polar bears. i'm not sure, but the only way i see and i talk about it when i go to india, is something like the take care program. because you know, the last tigers are going by people who are desperately poor. and they're going in there because they can sell the tiger parts or something like that. and if we could involve them in the kind of tacre program and give them other ways of finding their livelihood and bring some money and threw maybe carbon credit for avoiding deforestation, for example. but whether that will save the tiger or not, i don't know. i don't know if the political will will be there. >> host: we haven't addressed the larger problems, i suppose, that are just by climate change. i suppose it's possible to look at climate change as a reason to accelerate in every possible way the study of the species so that
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we can understand how these ecosystems function so that we can understand what can survive, where. i know that we've learned a huge amount in the last 50 years. it strikes you that there's always, that this kind of chart that you can draw up, the amount we know about a certain species and the decline of species, if you want those two lines to cross before they meet the third line, that is extension. >> guest: unfortunate, there are other lines intersecting here, which is making it very competent. like what are we going to do about saving the environment. that line is going to cross, and you know, how many more people. but i was just in greenland that i stood with some elders saying these huge slabs of ice crack off and crashed down, where never, ever use the ice to melt.
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and now there's a raging turn of melting ice. there wasn't even a trickle 30 years ago. it never melted. they call it the big eyes and goes up to the icecap. i came away, you know, with the sense of like this is a wakeup call. we have to do everything we can to slow down climate change. we can't stop it. we can't halted in its tracks. we can't suddenly turn it around any more than a huge ship, which is full steam ahead, can be turned. it's going to take time for the thing to change course. but we just have to do everything we can. one way is saving tropical forests, traffic carbonetti. >> host: in the face of all this, he remained optimistic that is interesting for me to try to figure out what form of optimism this is, whether it's bullheaded optimism. whether it's mike soli, an ecologist uses a bet in
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conservation biology, it is necessary to be optimistic. but i think it's something more than that. i think you really do believe there is a way to do these things, to steal a phrase from our current president, yes, we can situation. >> guest: well, you know, things may not always have been done in the right way, but the lotus plateau in china, that's an area as big as france i think. and it was the most utterly degraded ecosystem in the world. it was completely barren. this was a big project. this was the world bank getting together with the chinese government. and all these people were told, you know, you've got to plant trees. this friend of mine who filmed it every year, he has held that now 15 years, and has made a film called us hope that he interviewed some of the farmers in the early days. they said this is ridiculous. they tell us to plant trees and
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we have to plant them, but it's stupid. but now the trees have grown, and of course, too much fertilizer, chemicals, stuff was used. but there are other examples in the book like where it was done in a more gentle way and it was the will of the people to turn this devastated area, which the nickel mining had reduced to just blackrock. and everything had gone, and the people were living in horrible situation. and now, go there and have a look. it's a beautiful. so we can turn it around. i think, you know, the big underlying problem is numbers of people. that huge. and we are taking away the world piece by piece by piece. because so many of us. so that's something that we have to address. and on the one hand, you get massive disruption of the environment through poverty, and
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on the other hand you get massive disruption of the environment through our unsustainable lifestyles. so those three things, if we can find ways to address them, and they are very tough, but they can be done in pieces. you can do the whole thing. but we know we can reduce poverty. we know that that can help the environment. we know that that in turn can bring animal species back. so it is possible. because we try and think so big that it becomes so impossible. but take pieces, and have, you know, have people passionate enough to fight the good fight for their piece. more of those people. more and more and more of those people. that's what that, you know, young biologists don't give a. go out there, you do your bit. say, it's possible and what the phrase never gives up appears frequently in this book.
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i understand more about why. now. i wanted to ask how the chimpanzees how they are doing these days? >> guest: well, they are not doing as a species than not doing well. we are probably way over a million when i began to stretch over 25 nations. they are now in 21 nations. you know, maximum 300,000. probably less. and therefore us are going really fast that many of them, like gombe in the fragmented patches. we should lose many more. but on the other hand, there are large areas set aside for conservation. avoided deforestation is something i feel very passionate about. ecotourism done in the right way, you have to find a way to
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give african governments and incentive, because at the moment china can go in and with lots of money and build dams and roads in turn for taking out basically the african children's future. so we have to build, come up with something that's as attractive, and to pay people not to cut their force it down is one way. the tourism thing, it does work, but it's not big amounts of money straight away. is just small amounts of money, but over the long-term. >> host: i bet 50 years ago it was impossible to imagine this world, you never would have guessed, who would have guessed? so it may not be fair to ask you to try and predict where we might be 50 years from now, if we were to get things right, or whether -- >> guest: there's too many
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imponderables. if you take all the sciences who worked on global warming and the falling of eyes, and they were wrong, it's actually happening faster than they said. so it's very hard. i wouldn't even try to predict the future. but michael is to get a critical mass of young people going out, taking up responsible positions in the adult world, sharing a philosophy, understanding that although we need some money to live, we should live for money. that raising money, getting lots of money, a quarter and stuff, you do, we need a different value since. and if we can get a critical mass of young people, thinking that way, then the future is much brighter. oddly enough, i think this economic downturn certainly in some parts of the world is having just that affect. people are thinking about their
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priorities, and you know, if you still have enough money in your bank to live a decent life, and you were spending all your time eating more and more and more and more money and very little time for your family, and suddenly you lose most of it, was it worth it? i know that this is the way of thinking in hong kong and some parts of china. i've met people, singapore. who are beginning to think differently. >> host: is a fair though to say, on the basis of this book, it seemed to me that certain positive futures, it's not -- there a lot of possibility that there is a lot of directions that we could go. >> guest: there may be some, i mean, heaven forbid, but there could be a plague like effect. we could lose hundreds of thousands of people. it's always been predicted with these superbugs because we misuse antibiotics because we keep animals in these awful conditions for intensive
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farming, so we have to feed them antibiotics regularly to keep them alive so that bugs are building up resistance. it's out in the food chain, and you know, people have already died from a scratch because there wasn't a strong enough antibiotic. so we don't know what's going to happen. we got to be prepared for it to turn around in the favor of the environment and animals in the future, for our own great-grandchildren. >> host: i want to go back to a more respectful form of the gene question. that we talked about. and that's related to the fact that you were one of the first women in your field, and now it's a field in which women are much more involved, and much more accomplished. and it appears to be wide open in that respect. how do you feel about that?
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you are a hero to many field biologist who happen to be female, that i know. >> guest: well, it's exciting because i have letters from young women who grew up in places like china, india, where women certainly didn't do this kind of thing. and i got hold of my book, usually "in the shadow of man," and they wrote to me and said i suddenly realize, if you could do it i can do it to. and it's a very good feeling. and i know from the number of young women who have said, you know, you really helped me to stand firm and go in the direction that i wanted to go. because after i read "in the shadow of man." >> host: is there -- you have never met my children, but would you like to give them any advice on what they ought to do to do their part to make some of these dreams come true?
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these are all unfinished stories here. there are threats to each of the species that are identified. i want to know if there is a message that you would like to send to the next generation as represented by daniel, john and eli nielsen. >> guest: i get this message all the time that it's basically that, you know, everyone of us, not just the young people, but all of us have to remember that each day we actually do make a difference. it's very hard to realize, you feel small and insignificant, and the choices you make, how can they possibly make any difference. but in fact, when enough people make small choices, like what you buy, what you eat, what you wear, where did it come from, did it include animal suffering or child sweatshops or did it involve lots of pesticides, did it destroy land to create it, how far hasn't come?
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how many air miles hasher who traveled? you know, if people stop thinking about the consequences of their choices, they do stop making change. and kids are really good at this. i mean, they become very passionate, and they drive their parents nuts because they want to know where all the food came from. why did you buy this one. we make it locally. my sister's grandson, when he was five would go all around the store and he would think you must abide that, it's got pesticides into. and you mustn't buy this, it's poisonous that in a very loud, piercing voice. [laughter] , and you don't bite, do you? trade you know, exactly that you don't buy it if it's poison. >> host: that's a perfect note to end on, and i want to thank you for joining us. and tell you that you are one of my heroes as well. i know that that's not a completely neutral statement from someone entering, interviewing a book author.
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but i am come on behalf of their own, i am grateful for you to what you've done. thank you. >> guest: well, thank you, just as i am grateful to all the heroes who share their not only passion but love with me. >> bryan garner is the co-author of making your case. mr. dorgan what you like to write a book with the supreme court justice? >> or so, it's an honor but we have quite a few debates as we went along. the reason we wrote the book together is that we have a very similar philosophy of writing. and of advocacy.
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but when we got into the book we have some disagreements. so there were four debate in the middle of the book which are kind of fun. just on the audio book which we read in october back and forth, he would read a section, i would read a section. but in the sections in which we had disputes, we would have our arguments back and forth. so it was a lot of fun working with them. i would say just as clear as not at all the way the public perceives him to be. in my view, he was surprisingly humble to work with, and he acquiesced a good bit of the time when we disagreed. >> how did you get hooked up with him? >> originally, i was interviewing all of the supreme court justice is on their views on advocacy and on writing. and i've written a number of books on the subject. so i invited him to collaborate with me and he accepted that it
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was as simple as that. >> where are you from and do you teach also? >> i do teach. i teach around the country but  have a company called law pros and we do continue legal education seminars for lawyers around the country. i teach at smu law school as well. but mostly what i do is teach on the road. teaching lawyers. >> so if a layman picks up this book, "making your case," what are they going to learn? >> they're going to learn how to persuade, how to speak credibly, how to write credibly. in fact, there have been businesspeople already write reviews of the book about how it could make them make better business, help them make better business presentations. and how anyone in any kind of argument can at least be sure that he or she has a logical argument that that's what the book is about.
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>> bryan garner along with justice leah, "making your case," the art of persuading judges. >> do you know you can view booktv programs online? go to booktv.org. type the name of the author, book or subject into the search area in the upper left hand corner of the page. select the watch link. now you can view the entire program. you might also explore the recently on booktv box or the future programs box to find and view recent and future programs. >> every year the national press club host and author. tonight i am with pamela newkirk, editor of "letters from black america." can you tell me about your books because it's a compilation of african-american letters, spanning from the 1700s to 2008, and what i try to do is
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present a multidimensional portrait of black life through their own letters. so it includes the letters of extraordinary people who, many have heard of, like doctor martin luther king, benjamin becker and ida b. wells. but also unsung people, slaves, just ordinary people throughout history. can you give an example of one of these unsung people? >> sure. there are many, several letters from slaves who are just writing to each other to family members from whom they have been separated. you know, letting them know how they are, trying to find out how their loved ones are very. not people who would have known of. >> how did you come upon this project and how did you select the letters? >> well, that was pretty insane. i went through thousands of lives over the course of five years, and some of the things naturally emerge so i wanted to look at black family life through letters, and so after a
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while to sort of an organizing principle through these things. and then i arrange them chronologically. but i tried to kind of create a narrative to show the historical oracles of the book begins with the letters of people in the 1700s. some were slaves and summerlike benjamin banneker, who was writing this powerful letter to thomas jefferson, was free. and one of the last letters in the book was written in 2008 by alice walker, who wrote barack obama to congratulate, you know, to say what his election meant it so it has this amazing arc showing the history of african-americans, enslaved and free over three centuries. >> what surprised you in your study of these letters? >> i guess one of the things that surprise me is the extent to which enslaved african-americans continue to communicate with their loved
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ones. or even that african -- that slaves wrote letters at all. by the extent to which they maintain the bonds across plantations, across the state, and of course this was an illegal act, but they somehow managed to stay in contact to the best they could with their loved ones. >> the regular booktv viewers may recognize you because we shot a program of yours earlier in the year which you can walk on booktv, go to our website and watch that program. what are you working on right now? >> right now i'm still here with this book. this is probably my 40th event since february. and we've also been to a number of dramatic readings around the country. we did a reading recently with ruby dee, the incredible actress, and anthony chisholm. so we've been working on a dramatic production as well. based on the book. i have not even gotten to my next writing project.
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>> between your teaching in between your promoting of this book, do you have time to reach the? i do have time to read, and i usually read more than one book at a time. two books -- i recently reread gore but also lincoln, which was a great read because a newer, there's an exhibit on lincoln in new york at the new york historical society. so that was an incredible way to look at that exhibit. and i also read ihde, the book of ida b. wells. that is amazing. right now i just started the health, which is totally different that it's fiction but i don't normally read fiction, but it's a good read. >> the author pamela newkirk, she is author of "making your "m black america." . .

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