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tv   Book TV After Words  CSPAN  November 27, 2011 12:00pm-1:00pm EST

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they are in st. louis and there in oakland and you know they are laid off concrete finishes up in for bond, and they are everywhere. and this book is about them. and it is for them. they just happen to be in my backyard, the microcosm, the capsule of it i tried to tell. and they don't have any champions. they are, you know, as close to forgotten as anybody i've known spent so what did the mill closings due to their self? because they take so much pride in building and working with her hand what did the mill closing due to them? >> well, one fellow went to work at a plant that made cat food of the guys had trouble finding work at all. a lot of older folks just retired.
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they did not mill around going well with me. they cut firewood. they found a way to make a living. they are very capable. there's a difference in getting by and making a living. they are getting by. a lot of them come and again a lot of them landed in jobs that pay the bills just barely and give them insurance which is key to everything. but if you ask them if they're still cotton mill workers at our, if they're still mill workers, they will tell you know. like my brother but if you ask him are you still in mill hands? he will say no, of course not. but if you go in his closet open it up all these jackets that he was awarded for perfect attendance, for working without missing a day, push out at you
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you know? if you open one of his drawers it is stacked with t-shirts from bass tournament's and company picnics. he doesn't wear them anymore but he hasn't thrown them away. i think there's incredible pride in these jobs, like there was being a steelworker and not in coal building houses driving a tractor. i think there's incredible pride in these things. my brother, sam said, it's funny, i'm supposed be the one that deals with words. he supposed be the one that is capable, and he told me once, he said, rich pretty soon the only thing we're going to make in this country will be money.
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and he doesn't figure it takes a whole lot of people to do a job like that. so i think it's got a good point. >> coming up next book tv presents "after words," an hour-long program where we invite guest host to interview authors. this week pat buchanan and his latest book "suicide of a superpower." in that the former nixon adviser argued that america is suffering from a moral and social collapse that may be permanent. he discusses his claims with ralph nader, consumer advocate and four time presidential candidate. >> host: good day. pat buchanan today on his book, "suicide of a superpower: will america survive to 2025?."wú wú óúwúwúwú i'm going to give you a óúwú óúwpóúóú television eternity, pat. take three minutes and explain your thesis, or theses. ui side wúmore than one come and
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what would you about it?óúwúwúwúwúwp óú >> guest: one of them is aóúwpóú don't think united states will last superpower by 2028 i think wúwúwúwú china is rising so fast it's going to be a military virtual equal of the united states.óúwú and equal so we're going to a bipolar world. secondly i think the american state, the nationstate, the government is in big trouble ralph. ópóúóúwpóúwpóúóúóúóúóúóp wú wú wúwú wúóú wp óúwú wúwúwúwú wú wp wpwpwp wúwúwú óú wpwpwpwúóúwú wúwúwúwúwpwúópwpwú wúwúóp wúóú óp wú wúwúwúwpwú óúwú wúwpwúwúwú wúwúwú wúwú óp wpóp óúóú wúwúóp wpwú óúwúwúwúwú óúóúwúóúwúwúwúóúóúóúwp wúwúwúwúwúóúóúóúwúwúópópwúóúwúwúwúwpwúwúwpwúwúwúwúwúóúwú wúwú wú wú wp ópwp óp óp óúóúwp wúwúwúwpwúwúwpwú some 55,000 factories shutwp down. the united states is declining as a great superpower to greatóúwp óú nation. wúwú butóp iwúwúwú think the most important thing iwp see is america is disintegrating. i think it was lee hamilton whowúwú said that the centrifugal forces are wpbecomingóúwp dominant inwúwp amewprican society. and i think if you look at our
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country you will see that ethnically in terms of class, in terms of philosophy and ideology, and in terms of raceóúwú wúwúwúwúwp even the united states seemswúwú to be taking down into enclaves of óú people who separate from each wp wú other and d owpóúóú not much like eachwúwú wú other, and even detest each wúwúwúwúwpwúwú other. and so in that sense of america will be awúwú legal entity i think wpóú in a political entity, but i don't think we'll call ourselves wú one nation under god indivisible again. i don't think we will be awú country in the sense that john jay and federalist to describe this as one unique separate people. >> host: and get this occupy wall street effort hundreds ofwúwú wpwp commuters, it's marked by a great diversity ofwúwú background cultures religions race. sort of united against the power of wall street and washington. in a desperate search for a more
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democratic society. not just political, but economic. how do you explain that? that seems to be against -- >> guest: i do think this. the measure of unity that they wú have i wúthink one of the reasons wú they haven't is because they arewúwp not defining their demands. i've seen some of the 13 demandswúóúóú wúóú and ensure some of those folks who are teawúwú party types would not be in favor of thosewúwpwúwpwúwúwpóú demands. so i think there's no questionwú wp about it ralph.wú i agree with the fundamentalwj premise of thewú occupy wall street folks which is, look,wú thesewú cells appear play the highest stakes poker game in the world, had a great time, they wú wú need billionwúswú of dollars. then all of a sudden they werewp wiped out and they ran to ago and said he was back our chips. and uncle gave him back to chips. now they're playin g again and they got the bonus is anybody out in óp middle america iswúwú something to get 9% unemployment
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and 60%wú probably active unemployed, and those searching for work.óúwúwp wúóú so i share the exasperation and wúwú anger and the rage at that in wúwúwúóúwúóp equity and injustices. but agaópin,óú whenóú you come to anóú óú agenda iwpwp think you will find wúwúwúwúóúóú they break down ideologically. wú and i think they will pick and also, ralph, i think as thewjóúójwjójwj winter comes they will not, aóúóúóúóúójój lot ofóú them will appeal off. they will not get the publicity they did. wúwpwjwjwjwjójwjwjójwhwjwjwjwúwúwhwú wú wú wú óúwú wúwp wúwúwjwjwjwúwúwpwúwpwúwúwpwúwúópóúópóúóú óúóú wpwpwpwpwúwpwpwúwp ójójópóúóúóúóhóúóúwh wú óúwúwúwúóú óú wúwúwú wúwúwúwhwjójwjójwhwúwúóhóúóhój óúwpwúwpwpwú wj wúóúóúwúóú wú óú wúójóúwúój wpójwúójójójójwjójwjwjwjwjwhwh wú wú wpwú wp óp wú wúwú wúwúwú wúwú wúwúwúwú wp wpwúwpwpwúwúwúwúwúwúwúwúwú wúwú óp wú wúwúwúóú wúwúwúwúwúwúóú wúwjwú wúwúwpwúwúwúwúwú wúwúwúwúwúóúwúwúwúwúwúwúwúwúwúójójójwúwjwjwhwjwúwpwjwpwj wúwúwúwúwúwúwúwúwúwpwúwúwúwú wúwúwú wú wúwúwúwúwúwpwúwúwp wj wú óúóúóúóúóúóúóúóp wúwú wúóú óúóú wú wpwú wúwúwú wúwúwúwú wú wú wúwúóúwúwúwúwúwúwúwúwú wúwpwú wúwúwúwúwúwúwp wpwpwpwúwpwpóúóhóúóúóúóhóhóhóhóhóhóúóhóhójój
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wú wp wúwúwúwú wp wp whwpwhwhóhwj wú wjwúwúóú wúwúwúwúóúóúóúóúóúwp óú wú ójwjójwjójwjwjwúwjwjwúwhóhwú wú wú >> and the anacortes basically turned the american people off to a movement, i think the american people then would have supported, stop exporting our jobs stops in the factories overseas, look out for our own people first. >> host: that's why they're quite disciplined out in the occupied, terms of nonviolent civil disobedience. at oakland conflict with the iraq veteran got hit by a canister. even that didn't provoke. they are quite disciplined were wp as they're not being infiltrated the way they were in seattle. early in the reagan administration, i was i program with you, local d.c. tv.oúoúo my last words were, the comingo! months out will show whethero!o! you're a corporatist or ao!o!o!o!o!o!o!o! o! conservative. so leto! me ask the question, just so people know where you'rewú coming from.wjwúwúwhwjwú are you a corporatist or awú wúwúwú
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conservative?wú wú >> guest: i'm a conservative óúóú aóúwú conservative.óúwúóú wú russell kirk. when i was younger you know iwúwúóúóúóúóúóúwúwú found the flash of conservatives and russell kirk but eventually you came towú see that he wouldwúwúwúwúwúwú have somwúething to say aboutwúwú society, the goods aside and had to preserve it so i much more that. i'm also as a catholic i have -- wú wpwpwúwú cyclicals back in there, ralph.wpóúóúóú >> host: liberation theology?wúóúwúwú wú >> guest: know. let me telwúl you a star though ralph. i wentwú to school in journalism school, and one of my classmateswúwúwjwjwú was a mayor noel preece.wúójwjwhwh a mayor no priest and he and i became friends. his name wawús magill. he became the foreign ministeróúóúóúóúwpwúóúwú of the sandinistas and he won wúóú the lynn peace prize. wúwú he was awú classmate of mineou
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catholic joby but no, i did notwúwú agree wiwúth him back then and iwú wp wpwúwp don't agree to new. >> host: how would you defineóúwúwú wú a corwúporatist? óhóh >> guest: these fellows, a lot of lobbyists in washington, d.c. some of them coming out of bothóúóúóúóú administrations, both white house and. they are down in d.c. and theywúwhwú ójójój will doój what the corporate bosswú tells them. let me tell you wúa story.wjwjwúóhóúóúóúwú when i came out of the nixonwj white house and there was an issue and you probably werewú involved in it andwp toshiba. the japanese company had takenwúwpwúwúwúwú this super quiet technology weójóhóhwjójwjwjwj had for our submarines with a wú good, even in soviet poor to wúwpwp wú move back outwj undetected.whwjwhwhwúwh wj they have access to it and hewú wú turned over to the soviet union. and i thought the congress would've come down on -- come toóúóú on tape and iwúwp found that guys iwúóúópwúwúwúwú worked with, some of those were representing toshiba. that's where that's the party line forming. >> host: in the book, which i have read of the one thing that
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there's very little of was howñ in the mix of this integration you're describing is corporatism, is the power of corporations? now we know that corporations no fuel limited every major religion in the world that ton! give too much power to the merchant class, the monuments. and what we've seen in america because you see a decline i see a decline in this way. parental authorities being sizedo up by corporate of selling tona kids junk food via programs sadistic staff.o >> guest: i agree with youoaoa 100%. >> host: i'm trying to getoaoa too% variables.nu ñ% the military-industrial complexñ!ñ!ñ!ñ%ñ!ñ!ñ!ñ! doesn't mind our empire abroad. that's more business.ñ! eisenhower warned us about that. the corporations push nafta and dedicate no through. were both opposed to it.
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abandonment of jobs and industry the communist and fascist regimes overseas to know how to keep the workers in the place 80 cents an hour. nafta dumped a lot of cheap corn into mexico, dispossessed millions of families some ofoeoe them in desperation went northo! over the border, increased then%n%ñ% immigration there.oeoa you have the corruption of our democratic politics, moving bigoao!o%o! money in politics. and they want to own everything, even our jeeps. they have thousands of patentsoaoaoaoa over our genes.o! ando! they don't have anyoaoa patriotism. i mean these companies grew profit on the back of american workers, got in trouble, bailedoaoa out by megan taxpayers, got in trouble overseas, so what's theoaoaoa message to america? we're out of here with youroa jobs and industry to china.ouoaoa so why isn't it and it
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devastated the family. they've separated children from their parents and we have a lot of documentation. how is this next in the book? there is an example one ask what you have a of ibm on how international america is abandoning.ótót >> host:abandoning. >> guest: i agree with almost any music.w÷ótwúwúwúwúóú look, when you put pornographyótó÷ on the internet for children and all the rest of it was it isó÷ótótótótótwp hollywood or the businesses, you'reót right, there are corruptóúó÷ótótótótótótó÷ human beings who do that.ó÷ó÷ó÷ótó÷w÷w÷w÷ and i'm against that. and you andwú i opposed nafta andótót ót these others, but i will sayó÷ó÷wtó÷ó÷ótó÷ that only in partial defense ofwpwpwpwpwpóú business guys, when i travel thewúwúwúótwúótwúótót country 92 in 86 i talk to theó÷ótótóúó÷wpópótót textile guys and they said i don't want to go overseas. i got on the road went overseas.ó÷wúwúwúótó÷ótó÷ he is with his factory towuwq mexico. this guy has moved to china.ótó÷ótótó÷wúó÷ they are undercutting me.ótóúóúóúwúóúwú if i don't go move my factor, i finished. ió÷ót tell you i blame the freeódó÷ó÷ó÷wúótóú
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traders.óúóúó÷óú i blame them but i used to bew÷ótw÷w÷w÷w÷wúwú one ofwú them. milton friedman and i wereó÷ó÷w÷wpwtwp friends until he wrotewp me a letter that said you were doing the devil's work.ó÷wúó÷ótótó÷ i ó÷was supposed to free trade.wúwúwúwúwúwtwúwt so agree with you on on the.ó÷ó÷ó÷ó÷ by a dó÷efenseó÷ of some of these ót business guys is that they saywpwpó÷wúwpwpwúóp look in the --ótwúwúwúóúwúwúó÷ [inaudible]vqwqwqwqwqvqvq isn't good for the united states of america.o! >> host: similar with our solar industry.o!o!o!o!o! we were ahead of the rest of thewúwúw÷ótó÷wú world.wú and now that ótfactories are wú moving to china.wúótótótwúwúwúwú
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china is --wpwpwpwpó÷wúó÷wú >> guest: let me ask you whatwpwpwpwpótwúó÷wp you think of the solution iwúwúwúwú wú propose. again, i think the republicansóúópópó÷óúópwúwpót in a parade from lincoln throughó÷óúwpwpwpwp coolidge, for example, we hadwúwúwúwpwúwp all these patriotic and americanwúwúwúwúwúwúót businesswú guys rough customersótótótó÷ótótó÷ robber barons in there, but whatótwúwúwúwúwú republicans did is they saidótótótótópótwp look, the taxes this is thewpwpwúwú greatestwú market in the world.ótó÷ótóp these guys arewú going to pay anwúwúwúwúwúwúó÷wú entrance the and it's called awúwpwúwúwúwú wú tariff.óúó÷wpwpót the terracewúwú of 30 and 40% ofó÷ó÷ótó÷ó÷w÷ ó÷ what i would do on manufacturers, all manufactured come to denywp states, not just in china. i wouldn't single them out. i would put a 30ót him a a 30%ótótwpwpwpwpwt tariff $2.5 trillion inwpwúwpwpwpwpwp important justót to $600 millionó÷ótó÷ó÷ in ticket 600 billion, fromwpwpwúwpwp those tariffs andwú eliminate taxation on manufacturers to start up or who produced in the united states, tell the guys whowúwpwp built thewú lexus, a beautiful car and you guys assembly here youópóp will make your batteries yourwpwp
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your drivetrain your tired allwúwpwpwúópópópwp those things here. you can bring your technologywp bring your money and you canwpóú take your profits home, but you left american workers buildwpwp everything here. iwp wú do what you pay at tariffs on the stuff you bring bringing. i think it would work like a charm. that's hamilton. >> host: some liberals favoro!o!o!o!o! when these products come,oao!o!o!o! basically anti-competitive countries because they represso!o! their labor. >> guest: my getting on this i would have on manufactured by the social sciences, but probably that the congress of the said the chinese are doing>h>h>h> to show you how you change he basically said in this book we should have no conflict with
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china or russia. we are actually disrespecting russia because they have done everything since the collapse of the soviet union that we wanted.o!o!o!o!o!o% and yet we have 12 aircrafto!o!o!o% carrierso! which the beltway guys are saying is needed to reject american power. you know what the next guy that aircraft carrier? italy has 2. >> guest: and the chinese have?( the one. >> host: so explained -- i thought it was quite interesting the way you dealt very concisely with the way we respond to?h russia after the fall of the/h/h/8 soviet union./h >> guest: look, ronald reagan,?h he had a lot of luck but he was a good thing and i think in manywhwúwp/xwp wayswú he began to look, this is an evil empire they lie cheat and steal. when he said that at the first
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press conference there was total of the department of state. at the end of his administration in late 88 or early 89 he is walking through red square arm in arm with gorbachev and the russians are patting him on the back, okay? the cold war ended without a war. it was a bloodless victory. i said at the time do not move nato into breakout russia. let the germans go they let eastern europe go, they took the red army, moved it back, and what did we do? we took a military alliance -- and they may let the whole place, part. and the soviet army in debt. we take it one of the nato alliance which is aligned to fight russia in europe and moved it right up onto the front porch. at almost and house with a balkan republics. i opposed the. i said it was a terrible mistake. and we have some people go there and help luke the place and helped whatever it was blue the place. that's why you have put now, a tough customer and the
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nationals. and my view is russia does not does not threaten -- the united states does not threaten military. they don't threaten us. it's time for europeans to defend themselves. they are is which is what our combat as many people, and so that's what i would do. >> host: bring the soldiers back? >> guest: what are we doing. as the germans are going across waving to each other. what is going on? i was a the same thing to the south koreans. look, when you were a kid and i was a kid we knew a lot of guys. the guys at we grew up with better over there in korea but look, what are we doing with 16,000 or 20,000 folks in korea? how the grinch you have an economy 40 times the size of north korea, population twice as great. we will not leave our guys as hostages in the dnc. you guys are the first responders of the war. americans are not going to be the first to die in the second korean war kerry. japanese, 65 years get over it.
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you have 1% you spend on defense. you'll have to spend more and we have a lot of stuff here we could sell you. but you will be the first responders yourselves. >> host: you can see the drums are beating to raise china a growing menace by the lockheed martin types. what's your take on china? in the book you say we have no conflict with china. >> guest: it was for economic and geostrategic reasons. i was opposed to bringing, well, i suppose it's a trip to china with mr. nixon. what we did. i didn't like what carter did when he dumped taiwan. i went into reagan's white house. they called in there and said they had a communiqué. and so i said, you know i'm suspicious of china in terms of i do believe the chinese see themselves as replacing the united states. they'll play the role in the
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21st century. at america played in the 20th century. i think they see that. and so i think we have been building them. where did they get that trillion dollars, ralph? cash reserves. >> host: walmart. >> guest: walmart. look we don't want a war with them are a conflict with them. and i think the way we manage, the way reagan managed the cold war but i do think the chinese have ambition. they told us get out of the taiwan strait, get out of the china sea. it out of the east sea and get out of the yellow sea. and these are territorial waters. >> host: they look at it this way. aircraft carriers off long... island. >> guest: they had him in the gulf of mexico and all that. i think we would be ms. >> host: let me go through some of the things in this book, in more rapid fashion. iran. use the bug iran as a threat. income is being built up as a.. major existential menace.
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>> guest : i did say off theótótótwd record there's this plot to blowótót up the ambassador in saudiótótót arabia with his character downótótótótótót there who is a womanizer, a bigótótótótótót drinker, a smoker, a loudmouthótótótótótót the guide who is a used carótótótótótótótót salesman.ótótótó÷ót and they got him as a key guy inótótótót thisót conspiracy so he goes toótótótótótótót the mexican cartels and happened to run into a dea agent that heótótótótót did get some money from iran.ótótótótótótót that's a little disturbing butótó÷ót they sent to the fbi's account,ótótótótót apparently. so i said, this thing looks like asót worked up but a couple ofótót internsótót at langley.ótótótótótót but it looks like a stingótótótótótó÷ótó÷ó÷ó÷ operation.ó÷ótótótótót i mean you see the neocons.ótótótótótót ót this is an act of war.ótw0ótótótót let's go after them. so i do think there's óta realótótótótótótót ót move to have this country go toót war against iran but and i thinkótótótótótót that would be a terribleótótótótót mistake.ótótótótótót i agree with brzezinski. i heard them on in his nbc theótótótótótótótó÷ó÷ other day.ó÷ótótódódó÷ót
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and, frankótly i would be look,ódótót richard nixon engaged the chinese.ót he engaged the monsters.ótó÷ót mile is the greatest mass murder in history. we were over there and i'm writing speeches, you know toasting the health of maoótótó÷ zedong. nixon did that because you have to do those things. weótótót didn't attack taiwan to develop nuclear weapons.ótót the russians were the onesótót thinking of doing that. we didn't attack russia weótótótótótótótótót didn'tót attack pakistan or india.ótótw0w0wdwdótótót the israelis got their nukes partly from the united states. so i think the united statesótótótótótwúót should engage the iran's to tryótótótótótó÷ótótót to prevent them from going nuclear. i'm not sure they want to goótót nuclear.ótótót i don't think the americanódódódódótót intelligence agencies have noódótót firm data that they're goingó÷ó÷ó÷ó÷ótótót nuclear.ótótótótótó÷ and so i would engaged in. i would take a look at theirótótótót turkish brazil proposal.ótwúwdótót and also low they are not aótótótót threat to the united states ofót america, for heavensót sake.ótó÷ótótótótótót we have thousands of nuclear
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weapons.ótótótótótótót ót >> host: they haven't invaded in 14,000 years. put issue on the other foot. they are scared of us aspect ió÷ótótódótótótót think they are.ótótót i believe they are and they areót very apprehensive when this story broke.ótótótótótótótótótót i think i bet they thought itótótótótót was a pretext for theót americans to come after.ótótótótótótótót look, let's take israelis.ótótótótótót they say this as an existentialót threat to israel's have hundreds of atomic bombs.ótótó÷ótótótótótót who's the existential threat to whom? the israelis are the onesótótótótódótót running, out of gibraltar onótótó÷ test runs and burned them toótótótótót greece. if it wouldót the iranians i wouldótótó÷ be w÷looking very closely at the, quite frankly.wpótwúw ót i mean, i don't know that theótwúw0w0 iranians will do this.ótótótót suppose they did build a nuclear bomb.ótótótótótót the turks are building, theótót saudis would get went and theó÷ótótótótót israelis whoót put their -- if iótótótótótót were an iranian ó÷i would say iótótwp don't know what we get from
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this. we get maybe a yearótót or two. we have a bomb longer than the turks but that'so! it.ótótótótót >> host: they would bewdótótwúótót annihilated. >> guest: the israelis would put there, nuclear force on the hairtrigger. >> host: know, you've come out for a palestinian state long ago. i mean you -- >> guest: i -- >> host: when you present the israeli lobby was powerful inoq congress, like who's going to deny that? do you know what's interesting? in 67 years since israel was created by the united nations there's never been a hearing where the israeli peace our foreign generals, 43 people members of -- have never been invited to give the other side and they had a large number is israelis support.ótótótótótótótót >> guest: let me say this.
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there is far more dissent and argument and discussion inótótót israel over which course theyót should take i think and defied almost bet you fight in denywúwúw states of america, quiteótótótótót candidly.ótótótótótótót but the palestinians, and i wasótótó÷ó÷wt really extremely passionate andótótó÷ót went to israel with nixon right after the six-dayót war.ótótótótótótótót in 73 i was down there.ótótótótótótótótót i was urging the president to go all out now when the russiansót were movingót their troops toótót airborne bases moving ships and i said look we detected nuclear weapons on the ships. i feel we should of gone all out. what changed my mind is a simple thing, i'm a great believer in ethnonationalism but as you know, in the book. when the palestinians rose of an they stood up, i said the possibility, which i thought of a single state is dead. i mean these people want their own state. they may not have been a peep
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and 73 went golda meir, but there comes a point where the people exist. they became not just palestinians, once you do that in this day and age it has to be expressed in a nation state. the best the israelis like general been in my judgment they came to recognize that and they said we have to do with that, got to work with this reality. because the greatest threat too!o! israel as a right in hiso! book, the existential threat is demography. >> host: and more herbs aspect the numbers are growing enormously. >> host: let's turn to mexico.oao! on page 391 you write an amazing statement come if you could explain. you say after all u.s. troops in iraq, afghanistan and korea our home the u.s. army will be on the mexican border. for this is where the fate of the republic will be decided end quote. can you explain that? >> guest: by 2050 the number of hispanics into a state can if
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we do nothing about immigration or illegal immigration, will be 135 million. they will be hard to concentrate in southern california, nevada arizona, new mexico and texas. i think culturally and socially the american southwest is as much a part of mexico as it is of the united states. i think we can become a binational state and a bilingual nation, and a binational nation. and i don't think this or not come if you see what happens at places like kosovo when they do that they pulled away so the question, this might be called the national question. mexican folks are good folks, hard-working folks and even the illegals who come here were carpet but we have to decide onótótótótótótótót the going to remain one nationótótótótótótótótót and what people?ótótótótótót i think if weótót do not get controló÷ó÷ó÷ótótó÷ótó÷ó÷ ofót immigration, certainlyótótótótótó÷ó÷ó÷ót illegally, even legally come if we continue with a million, a million and a halfótótót when theótótótótótó÷ótótót melting pot has been rejectedó÷ótótót and broken, and we're talkingótó÷ótótó÷ó÷ó÷ót multiculturalism which is
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failing all over europe, i thinkótótótót that's one of the fundamentalót problems we see which the intro break up of united states into its complement parts. >> host: you go further. you quote higher mexicano!o!o!o!o!o!o!o! officials that seem to thinkót that the southwest of the united states is going to be theirs.o!o!o!o!o!o! you think there's a reversal movement underway? you want for the mexican-american war, were you?ótótótótótót lakin despised it.ó÷ód >> guest: lincoln lost --ótótótótótót lincolnót was thrown out ofótótótót congress after one term.ó÷ódó÷ódódótótót but didn't he say secession wasótótótótótótót justified in 1847, 48?ótótót he wasót very much against it.ótótótótótótótótót he had to spot resolute. show me the spot with nixon cameótótótótótótótót in here and shot the americanó÷ótótótótótótótó÷ troops and patrols.ót he was a much against it you're right, but he found out heótótó÷ó÷ó÷ótótót didn'tót give back when he got ino!o! power.n!o!o! >> host: what is your view onótótótótótótótót
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the mexican american war as aótótótót segue?ótótótótótót >> guest: i think in a way iótótótótótótótót think is a just war andótótótó÷ótótótót assistance.ó÷ótót i think the texas war ofótótótótótótótótót rebellion revolution was a justótótót war.ótótótótótótó÷ these people rose up and theyó÷ótótót outnumbered the mexicans tend would. the mexicans had invited themótótótótótótótót in, and they took texas out andótótódódó÷ót for 10 years the mexicans didn'tótótót try to retrieve the end of anótó÷ independent country. thenótó÷ót they said we want to joinót the united states. they have a sovereó÷ign right toótótót do. there was a dispute all theót waywdódótó÷ódódótót down, and so polk sent the troops down to the rio grande. he said this is ours. we claim it all.ótótótótótótót ót >> host: but he wanted toótó÷ótótótótót expand the territory forótótótótótótót slavery. >> guest: you're right. that's what a point out that anybodóty who thinks this is aótótótótótótót democratic revolution, texas was a slave state.ótótótótótót ót a slave nation.ótótótót but i do think that the americans were right in a sense they have a legitimate claimótótótótótót
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and if the mexican army cameótótótótótótótótwd right up to the border and youótótótótótótót have to fight, but there's nowpótótót doubt once the war started polkótótótótót ót said okay, and he said who isótótótót that, first? was a tryst he said to mexico?o!o!o! >> host: before we take a break you think the mexicanótótótótót nationalism really has designsótótótó÷ótótótótót on --ótót >> guest:ótót i believe listenótótótótótót about 56% of mexicans, i'm not shy the figure in his book,ótótótót believe that the southwest byótótótótótótót all rights belongs to them.ótót i think they believe that as they move in gradually the numbers, they will gradually become as i said socially andó÷ótótó÷ culturally a part of theótótótótótót soótuthwest. and saw them believe with theótótó÷ót merger of the three nations inó÷ótótótót this common that it will be asótótótót ót much a part of mexico as of theótót nested. and ió÷ think they want toótótótótótó÷ót associate with us much more economically too because ofótótótótót the benefits and the rest ofót it.ótótótótótótótótót yeah look i don't thinkót
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they're all benign in the purposes down there in mexico city. >> host: okay, we will be back after the break. >> host: you make some prettyótódótótótót incendiaryót distinct --ótótótótótót distinction in the book and i want to go through them and put them in a largerótót context becauseótótód you areót have scotch irish andódó÷ótótótótót half german, i understand.ódódót >> guest: and one half german one for the scotch irish one for the regular irish.ótótótót >> host: the irish kinkiness it's after the potato famine. the reaction to them waso!o!o!o!o! vicious.o!o! they were called hooligansót lazy, drunkards, polluting theót race, et cetera.
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>> guest: hooligans might not an altogether wrong. >> host: and then they were treated -- some were called criminals and shiftless and so forth. now, when you talk about new york city the vast majority of street crimes are black and hispanic, let me ask you this question. don't you think the past century of corporate crimes are white? >> guest: yeah. >> host: you left that out. if you are strengthen your argument, because there's a lot of preventable violence, occupational disease and infections -- >> guest: let me tell you.?h?h?h?h corporate criminals ought to go?h/h?h to prison.?h the point i was making is one of?h the points i was making is this>x real objection, i know a lot of?h?h?h guys -- 98% according to the guy?h that runs -- he said 98% of the?hwúwp
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assaults and murders of cabwú drivers are done by black and brown folks. so if it's 49 to one if you get mugged or killed is going to be.x up by a person of color. to explain what a cab driver might say let's pass by this person of color and pick up the corporate crook because the corporate code isn't going to be made to death in the car. >> host: a lot of the time is based on drugs, the war on drugs which has been attacked by both right and left. including milton friedman. a lot of discriminatory enforcement. there have been steady showing black teenager are white teenager, same record, caught with drugs, five times more likely than the black teacher goes -- black teenager goes to do. but aside from the way the statistics reflect these kinds of distortions do you think the high percentage of crime by blacks and hispanics, street
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crime, not corporate crime reflects something inherent in the character, or do you think it reflects a class deprivation? is a race or class depravation? >> guest: i think this. i grew up in washington, d.c. we had 400000 black folks and 400,000 white folks. we didn't have crime in those days in either community at the kremlin today. i think one of the name promise is a total collapse in decomposition of the african-american man. you have kids for now said 1% of african-american kids are born to single moms, and so they have no father at home and, frankly, going back to an earlier points the welfare state has taken the place of the father in the home and all those welfare benefits and programs and the rest of it has not prevented the decomposition of the family.
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i think that contributed to it. and so i think it is a matter it is certainly a matter of the social situation in which these kids with. it's a matter also of the decline of religion. i have two chapters in there. people they have no increases his or her opposition to things like that. >> host: let me just point out, so if all they had jobs and the public works were decent they were racks and tenements and landlord abuses and drug wars, eto! cetera you wouldn't say that that crime level would go down? >> guest: listen the crime level -- people were poor and -- 1930. they are not poor than they are today. d.c. has the highest per capita income i think in the nation. they were poor in 1950 and he didn't have the crime today. let me ask you. what explains the explosion ofw0w
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w0 crime, thewú quintupling of the prison population? one reason you're right is drugs. it ain't alcohol which it was with the irish. it's drugs which in some cases are far far worse, and so that's why i'm in favor of prohibition of drugs where i wouldn't be in favor of prohibition of alcohol. >> host: in other words, you would a to be more to class to anything in here right? >> guest: probably more to the collapse of the family and the collapse of religion and thingsoqo!ñ! like that. >> host: they all go together. the thing that you have to worry about this book is they want to change as bigoted and racist, right? >> guest: tell me about it ralph. >> host: there are two sections in there that are similarly tragic and semi-humorous but i want to bring this. in your zeal to cover all the ethnic groups you align on an upstate soccer team. you said, you're trying to show
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the ethnic priority is over the american priorty. so they want to go to england to be in a soccer match and they want to go on and. why passport and britain said no and hillary said yesterday that he decided not to go. as you know, first native americans that certain modest levels of sovereignty based on trees. they are not like any other group. you complete your little paragraph here by saying for the indians, being here quite is first and being american is next. >> guest: look you're asking yourself, if you're looking for a passport, i would say you?( consider yourself and. why first. what is wrong with saying that. >> host: bridger criticized. >> guest: i'm not criticizing. here's the thing. in a way i'm saying this shows you, ralph, in a very small way?h?h?h
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to force that pat moynihan and arthur schlesinger said of the?h?h comet forces. right now in the world is ethnic nationalism, tribalism religious fundamentalism are far more powerful and ideology. and we are not immune in this country from these forces.?h>h>h>x and when the melting pot has been thrown out and you're preaching multiculturalism what holds us together? >> host: let me tell you what. culture commercial is transcending. in other words if you want to sort of melt people together even though you may not like the values, commercial culture is sweeping the world. the same people in sri lanka or listen to the same music and going into the same as they are in alaska. so -- >> guest: you're talking economics. no question. >> host: but it is a culture.
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>> guest: let me tell you it is not as powerful as these forces are describing. take a look at what is tearing countries apart both mac let's talk about america. it's overwhelmingly -- [talking over each other] >> guest: that are unifying forces i think forces i think of it in the book. one of them is sports. all day sunday. the nfl.ót there's no doubt in all that economics is one thing that does unite folks is sports. but what i'm saying is these forces pulling world's and continents and countries apart. barack obama said it himself in his nobel prize.wp he said the worst today are not between nations. they are within nations. >> host: but india says,oqoqoq commercial -- they make iconso! out of my in other words sportcoat music, actors, actresses. that is a dynamic --ososoqoqoqos
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>> guest: that is freeoqoqoqoqoq enterprise. >> host: the enterprise. >> host: appointed it is reducing these ethnic classes which you think ours disintegrate american. >> guest: no doubt he will have in common, people have in common mazza gonna be. we're all shoppers. that's what unites us shop. >> host: that's what bush, after 9/11 said shut up andoqoqoqoqoqoq shop.oq here's another one.oqoqoqoqoqoqoq oq i know a little bit about this. black farmers. black farmers very hard-working. after the civil war they had a few million acres and it started declining after world war i. and because of the most odious discrimination support structures, favoring white farmers and not black farmers. i mean it was so crude and is done by the county agents who were whites.o! >> guest: and all appointed. >> host: right.o!o!
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you are upset because after years and years of litigation delay, and a lot of these farmers in the '80s and '90s, if it hadn't passed on got 50,000 bucks. and the point is that they were dispossessed of their land. >> guest: did they all proveos they were dispossessed? >> host: just a minute. they have to fill. so now you're down to a few tens of thousands of acres of blacko%o% farmers. and, of course, the records disappeared. they didn't exist. they knew from the land.o%o! >> guest: didn't we have -- [talking over each other] then the hispanic farmers. they got that going to do something. >> host: compared to 50 years of discrimination and. >> guest: they went down to florida. they're going to get out of billion dollars. >> host: it comes from the --
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[talking over each other] >> host: this assembly in the southwest. >> guest: but they went to florida and couldn't find any.o%o% when you consider what is ato% stake over 50 60 60 is, do theoqoq arithmetic. anyway, i don't want to belabor it but i do want to point out. you talk about -- >> guest: that stop you cold. >> host: did it ever. the decline of catholicism, the catholic church, the decline of christianity makes up a lot of these chapters. is what i don't understand. it's not all consistent. like let's say for example the situation of bethlehem in the west bank, it's now surroundedoqoqoqoqoq by 10 growing israeli colonies which block access to jerusalem.oq and there are two other colonies that block access. there are very few christians left.oqoqoqoq the church is almost likeoq
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isolated. christian stores and hotels are shut down. so the program to come from all over the world can't state overnight. the presbyterian church is taken a stand. the methodist church has taken aoq stand. the evangelicals supportoror/r/r israel's no matter what/r/r happens. you think they would have an exception. but the vatican, and you know this probably better than i, because robert novak wrote a column. the vatican is very upset. they are negotiate with israel's all the time to access the holy place. but they haven't really spoken out. now you know the israelis blasted their way to protect the wailing wall in 1967./p where is the christian come on/p these holy places? what about the u.s. congress? what about the catholics and/p protestants in u.s. congress?
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this has nothing to do with whether israel is going to get three, 4 billion more dollars. >> guest: i take appointed robert novak was a good friend of mine. who was then made them a wonderful fellow, a christian over there for a number of years. a good friend of bob strauss. look, i don't agree -- >> host: what is the religious nationalism? >> guest: where is the moral authority? i don't disagree with you. i think you ought to stand up frankly for -- well, look look at all the christians 70 million christians in a part of the world. i will say this. if it's in israel's there not being persecuted like the cops are in egypt, or the searing catholics are in iraq. they are victims martyrdom. in afghanistan to liberate afghanistan, one guy converted to christianity, and they sentenced him to death.
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>> host: the demons had been released. because for centuries the whole era of the islamic world was a paragon of tolerance for religious -- >> guest: under the ottoman empire. >> host: they prided themselves. but when the west moved in divide and rule come you support one muslim sect against another they engage in a tree, then they turn on others guessed i got a problem with the british empire, ralph? >> host: this is what happens. >> guest: i don't disagree with that. let's say okay there's no doubt that's one of the great causes but let me say this. right now you do have the rising islamic movement, and a lot of them don't disagree with the fact that people's religion should not only shake their culture but they want to represent. a more christian society reflecting our views and values.
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but also, ralph, i mean, this thing was taking place against the christian over there, and some governments are trying to stop it but that is real. it's an effort really to drive christianity completely out of that part of the welcome all the way from egypt over to pakistan and india. all those in their our fax it it has bowed down to ethiopia. the 16th parallel heavily catholic, the sub-saharan. anne northup that in the sudan and places like that, its arab and muslim. the persecutions are unbelievable. >> host: look at the chinese are persecuting muslims. takes a for example. there are peaceful christian community and they are terrified. >> guest: they are very successful, christians are very successful in city. they're protected.
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i heard, the mod over there is when a santos, if the christians christians. so i'm not sure this is all that liberal a society that's going to emerge out of any of these places. but could one of the fact is ralph, is his writing militancy of islam. let me say this. i think in looking at europe as a decadent and i'm gonna come and get exactly right. the europeans the europeans can provide enough service workers>h>h to take care of aging shrinking>h time populations.>h>h>h>h and i think the folks are going to be moving across the mediterranean into europe. >> host: there's been a huge backlash against colonialism. look at iraq.>h>h>h>h>h>h you don't think u.s. military is>h>h>h>h>h>h going to defeat the taliban? >> guest: know. i think he will end very badly but i think the talibans will be coming back to power. >> host: general mcchrystal was quoted as saying 30,000 people in santos.>h>h>h>h>h>h>h>h
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>> guest: the colonists took care of the brits. >> host: it's very hard to see any resistance from foreign>h>h>h>h>h>h>h invaders. >> guest: they live there and they're going to stay there. >> host: sometimes when i read this book, as i was reading this book is almost a wistful quality to it. it's almost like if i did use this unhealthy, you're in the neighborhood and you have say one ethnic group, say white anglos with some irish sprinkled in, and they've lived there for years. sadly people come in other ethnicities, other religions in the food smells different. they kids are running over thewqwqwqwqwqwqwq grass. it's like the whole breakdown of this quiet self-contained community.o!o!o!o%o!o!o% because what gets me about what
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you're trying to convey here is that you're not taking account accept in the last part of the book would you become optimistic. unit taking account the common desires, preparedness fair play, decent standard of living, even tolerance, that cross all ethnicities other than their extreme people we're talking about large majority.á here's what you say on page 364 because i saw you seeking and sagging here partly because he didn't want to be misunderstood. you sicko on the national question, americans are united. they still exist in their hearts the will to remain one nation under god and one people united i history, heritage and language committed to proposition that men and women are to be judged, not by their color the color of the skin, but by the content of their character.
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americans to believe that we're all equal in length, not because not because because we came from but because of who we are, americans be okay so why did you go overboard with his who is white and who's not white? you think hispanics are not like what you think justice sotomayor is not white? she looks like any. >> guest: she she is a puerto rican lady. i don't know how she defines herself economy day what i see as the problem. there's no doubt as i said many times before anybody could be a good american. i think any group can be assimilated but here's the three problems. what is the enormous numbers of people come into this country who have never before been assimilated into any western country. never. >> host: 1912 the highest number of immigration. >> guest: the second the process, the melting pot public schools, parochial schools,
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listen to the same reader, rooted for the same teams from all these things, the melting pot is rejecting multiculturalism. don't assembly, be different, etñx cetera.>x >> host: they do that forñx protective recent. >> guest: and a third thing is, look around the world your and you see these rotten, just think of iraq is one. sunni versus shia the sunnisñx versus the christian. they're all comingñh apart. the uighurs versus the chinese but take a look at burma.>hñh 40% of these tribes are trying to break away.ñhñx all of these powerful forcesñxñx even in europe, scotland wants to break way. northern italy, the leg of north.ñxñx ñh the one thing is we have thrown at the melting pot, we bring inñx all these folks from all these places destroyed our process of assimilation but i'm looking over the world and seeing it's all coming apart and i'm sayingñx why are we taking this risk with the greatest country?
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why are we doing it? >> host: also you see how cano!o! multiculturalism and multi-ethnicity and all that,o! how can i produce it country and the one we grew up in then iso% our generation? first of all, it wasn't all that great. segregation was horrible. the repression of human potential among blacks was terrible. there's a lot of discrimination against women. in my harvard law school class,o! i entered in 1955 we have 560o!o!o!o!o!o! students, 562.o!o!oao!o%o! we had 15 women.o!o!o!o!o! women were never allowed in harvard law school intel 1950s.oao!o! with 13 at 560 women maybe twoo! blocks, and i don't think oneo!o!o!oaoao!o%oa hispanic. the hispanics at harvard were usually children of south american dictators.o!o!o!o!oao! >> guest: at georgetown we hadoao!o!o!o!o!o! reached its. >> host: was that a good thing
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when you blissfully go back?>xñh the point i would say here is>x look, all these, what these kids, where they raised -- whenñx he went into law school, which law school? harvard law.>xñxñhñx you're at the top law school.ñxñx were kids get out of theirñh because if they're kept out who were qualified and unqualified guys got in, right. you read in there, white working-class kids are considered and christian kids are the most discriminated kidsñx in these ivy league schools, according to a study i quoted, that's what i don't like. look, it doesn't bother me if the nfl african-americans are overrepresented by 500%.ñxñx why?ñx they got every job they gotñh because of ability, driveñh energy, and the rest of it. that's the 1950s i remember.ñxñxñx and if those are --
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>> host: but you wouldn't think this is a nice thing? >> guest: if they are discriminated against but if they got better scores than ralph, ralph should have been in there. >> host: this is the point. you've got to look into the sat nonsense. it's a terrible way to screen out or screen in people. heavily coolly with family income. far better are the assessments.vuvqvqvq do you know this about economics?wq do know this about history? the assessment test to harvard and all the ivy league, they use these multiple choice, which corley with family income. >> host: >> guest: when i was going up, a lot of guys they were very wealthy without income, maybe they got rich by some scheme or something.ñx but most of these lawyers and doctors were very smart people>x>x come and that's why they made more>h money. >> host: anyway, i want to go
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on to one other thing he. i think you're overestimating clashes. i think corporate commercial culture is pervasive. i think a lot of people -- >> guest: you think it can hold us together? >> host: look at the sub in the continent in california. silicon valley. >> guest: give extreme bright kids and they're in school and winning all the spelling bees and things like that. >> host: where you have 60% of population recently from, say south america, they will create their own subfolder passionate subculture. the juniper whole time, that battle with gm in detroit? 5000 people community, one-sided detroit. gm said we want to buy -- we would like it here.vpvpor it was 450 acres.oror the black mayor went along with/r it. said a white corporation black
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mayor went along with it.op the only problem was there wereopop a thousand homes.opopopopop there were 400 small businesses.opopopop op there were 12 churches including a beautiful polish builtopoqopop op catholic church, a hospital andvpwpoposvpñp two schools.ñh they took a by eminent domain. >> guest: eminent domain? >> host: for a play at. >> guest: i don't believe in that. >> host: they ended up producing about half the jobs they promised and the church, because we people out there trying to save it, john richard. the church was bulldozed the needed at 5:00, the police came they cleared out the parishioners and priests. they bulldoze this beautiful church that early polish immigrants build, right? do you know where the church was? it was where the shrubbery of the parking lot of the general motors plant was. >> guest: i don't believe in that. >> host: here's the point.
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that community was half black and half polish, and eastern european living in very small, a clean prepared houses, little flowers and gardens. peacefully. >> guest: look, i grew up ----[talking over each other] just like how can you grant general motors the right to tearñxñx down private homes? sometimes you can take land for public purposes, but this seems to be a private purpose that the mayor went along with. i would agree with you 100%. >> host: recently in the new london case -- >> guest: i agree with the new london decision. >> host: i'm trying to show that corporate power -- >> guest: i know it does. >> host: listen, we don't have much more time. i wanted to ask you when you said religion, race culture and
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drive are the four horsemen of the coming apocalypse. would you add corporatism? >> guest: know, there are only four, ralph. >> host: can there be five? >> guest: know. i will tell you -- >> host: which is a corporatism is part of -- >> guest: corporatism is coming into, what it has become, religion is the basis of ethics and morality, and when that goes, and you have powerful corporations their even more dangerous in any ways an individual to no doubt about it. to i believe in rampant corporatism? know. i don't worship -- i don't agree with the a world bank? world economic, like the fit. i don't agree with him on that. but when he did say the worship of capitalism is -- i do believe

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