tv Book Discussion on The Upstairs Wife CSPAN February 7, 2015 6:02pm-7:01pm EST
and she is also a human rights activist and served on the board for international usa. tonight she is joining the conversation by a producer and reporter for npr's all things considered. so please join me in welcoming both of them to politics and prose. [applause] >> it's a great pleasure to have the first discussion for the book so thank you for this amazing book. i wanted to start with sub for the columnist and in it didn't and to the introduction me. she writes in that leading english newspaper there and her work with the question of human rights and women's rights and discrimination in all kinds of issues and i'm curious when you have written something as personal as this book is which is part memoir and part history of pakistan what was the origin and deciding to take the writing you do every week and say something in a way that you have done here?
>> first of all thank you everybody for being here. i am sure you hear authors all the time. writing is a lonely job and so there is really nothing better than sitting in front of people who read your work and are interested in it. it is rare that i write mostly for a pakistani audience. i am a columnist for the largest newspaper and the genesis of this book was in my interactions he would write to me every week sometimes in response to the columns. it's difficult in the united states to get people interested in a book on pakistan. i was talking earlier to my friend and he was saying you know if you have a title that
says the more tired tired than anyone else that you can sell a book about pakistan but a book about the city i'm from karachi and seen through the eyes of women is a harder sell so it's so encouraging to see everybody here. you know i envision this book as a way to introduce people to really what it feels like to be pakistani more than anything else. so the theme in this book is an effort to present the emotional landscape of pakistan. it is i think a dimension of the country that is lost in the
narrative, that is dominated by security issues especially here in d.c. by terror, by violence. there is very little sort of exploration of intimate life that goes on behind closed doors and let that forms really the narrative of the country. >> you said you had initially thought about doing something that would bring the emotional landscape may be through fiction. there's a lot about fiction writers and they have been able to do a lot of stories that are about families and individuals and their struggles but ultimately you chose to not only right and more literary piece but also something that's particularly personal where you take your own family story and put on the page. all the women in your family, grandmother to your mother to your aunt into yourself so that decision too was a difficult one to put something like private life in pakistan which is very private in the public in the way
that you have. >> yes. it is difficult and it continues to be a struggle and i think that the way i look at it was that i had to be true to my commitment as a writer and that i wanted to present as honest as possible a story that was true to my heart and i captured the experiences of people i love. but you know sometimes that comes up against the expectations people have of you as well as the relationships you have with people. so it's a balancing act but i guess my strongest motivating factor was that i strongly believe that a lot of suffering results from silence and that because some of these private
boundaries are not traversed there are a lot of men who might on some dimension go through similar situations that feel alienated or allowed or that feel that their struggle is a singular one. and to have the story told hopefully is a way for other women to share their stories and to realize that you know there are universal strength of human emotion that unite us whether pakistani or american. the central theme of the book is being in love with someone who doesn't really love you, the same way you love him. and you know that's something i think that everybody goes through or has gone through or will go through at some point. >> can you talk a little bit about the central character in the book which is your aunt who is also the title of the book
"the upstairs wife." what you mean by that and what happened to her? if you can tell us about her and if you want to read a little bit about your observations. >> well, the central character is my aunts and obviously the story revolves around her husband taking his second wife and her coming, first coming home to what was her father's house to our house and what that was like to kind of as a child gets snips of what was going on but not really knowing what the matter was or why everyone was so upset or why she was so upset. so that's a central character and i think that i tried to explore this whole idea of public and private and how you know how there is a connection between the violence outside in pakistan and the violence in intimate relationships and how they can -- that can also tear
ascended or descended the stairs between these two women. the oddity of the household the only one on the lane where two men -- two women shared one man provided a conversation topic at their own dinner tables. from nagging concerns about jobs and money and traffic in schools schools. upstairs or downstairs to my? all managed to draw a laugh. the most overworked of husbands. thus the newly re-created neighborhood of strikers from bombay are united on one short lane of houses in karachi had found a juicy drama that was reliable fodder. >> and what is interesting is you take this observations what was happening in their families live in interlaced throughout the book with a history of pakistan so the reader is getting both this kind of sad
and juicy as you describe in your words, story of your family alongside the narrative of pakistan's political leaders and the one woman who you write a lot about in the book which is benazir bhutto who i think many americans know as one of the only leading female politicians in the world in her time. she was a larger-than-life figure and she also looms over your book is the freest women you know. can you talk about the choice to juxtapose your family's experience and the women in your life with benazir bhutto daughter of karachi known around the world? >> yeah i mean you know as a pakistani woman especially living in america that is probably one of the most frequent questions that i am asked. oh you know benazir benazir bhutto is the prime minister so in many ways pakistan, that is the public face a familiar face of pakistani women but i wanted
to present her as how i saw her as a kid when she was getting married herself and what that was like, how i interpreted that as a girl growing up in karachi. so you know more than anything here you have an environment, my environment where choices are very circumscribed. definitely being raised to be married and have children and you know i wanted very much for her not to do that because i wanted at least one example of a woman who was not doing what every other woman i knew was doing and their lives centered around marriage and childbirth. so i remember watching the wedding on tv and being sort of sad because it's like okay, here is the freest and it is true, she is the freest woman i know
and she also has to marry this man and to the child rafia he wasn't particularly good-looking man. i may made no political subtext whatsoever but as a kid you are thinking why is she doing this? i wanted at least one way to say not everybody has to do this. not everybody has to make these compromises and fit into these very constricted roles. and that's kind of the shadow because it is through the lives of other women and the marriages that you see that you interpret what your life is going to be like and the choices that you are going to make. so that is why she is a significant influence in the book. i'm also because this book very much you asked earlier about the origins. a pakistani woman you cannot
help but look at what's happening and be sad and be despond and about the way things are and be upset about the fact that you are not seeing a reflection or women are being erased from pakistan and there are public spaces where the history or any of the important dimensions of life. so i just got to this point whether i felt that this was the only way to reclaim pakistan is to present the story of pakistan through the eyes of women and that in itself was at least for me the ultimate subversive thing that i could do is you know here i have story after story of women who i love who try to claim the country for themselves and that includes benazir bhutto.
they were not able to do so-and-so i wanted to tell the story of the country and the struggles as those women because that i mean i guess they say history is defined or written by the victors. well i am writing history hoping that they will be the victors next and women will overcome because they will see in a narrative like this just how powerful and resilient they have been and that they can be and they continue to push the system and continue to push the boundaries of what are often very constricted choices. >> is that a lot of the ideas in the book came out of your e-mails that you had from women readers in pakistan from your columns and that has to do with some of the ways you present political history of some of the personal anecdotes that you share.
can you share the readers of these women are strewn into the book. >> definitely and before i say that pakistan and the newspaper that i write for is that the frontlines of a society that is transforming and that is extremely violent. i am just tremendously grateful for my editors who week after week really allow me to push the boundaries and write articles about issues like polygamy about issues like laws against adultery and all the other things that activists are working on. but you know more centrally than that yes i am touched by the fact that pakistani women are out there. i get letters from university students, from women who work
and the men who are even within their own families fighting so that their daughters can work and have choices. doctors and hospitals and i wanted to sort of reflect that plurality in a book because as they say i didn't want to put out one story. i wanted you to be able to see as many stories as possible so you understand that there's a mixture of pushing and pulling. there are women as you see in the book who, on the streets college students to fight and then there are women who retreat. all of that is a part of pakistan. more centrally though i think at this point in pakistan's history issues like polygamy are very very alive mostly because polygamy within the pakistani context is being presented as the solution to destitute women
and the more authentic islamic way to live and arrange a marital relationship and i think that in those discussions of polygamy a lot about what the koran says and what is allowed and not allowed but there's no discussion about the emotional ruin where arrangements like that can cause to women. exploring marriages and exploring those intimate relationships was a way to begin that conversation and within the american context i think it's also important because in a very different way the u.s. is also engaged in looking at questions of what our intimate relationships, what is marriage what are the boundaries of what we want as a society in different ways. i think that is the way to sort of relate to people who might
not have any background in pakistan to sort of understand that our central impulse of wanting to be with someone or wanting to be the only person in someone's life is universal. it's the same whether it's for my aunt or my friends here or myself or for many of you. >> i wanted to ask something about what you said which is you wanted to be more universal by looking at these questions of love ultimately. you are on the board of directors of amnesty usa and amnesty international and these questions are so central to what you do in your other work but i also think you put together a book that is very literary and has quite a personal touch to it. one of the things that i was going to ask if you would read the section that describes the origin of pakistan and the man who founded pakistan is credited as the sort of central figure in
its history but you actually decide to tell his story. the story of the wife who died before he came to pakistan in 1947 and i wondered if he could read a little bit about how he was also someone who had to lose love and marriage in his life to be a politician. >> definitely. gas and to set this up a little bit more another sort of theme in this book is migration and this whole idea that we can never really go back to what we believe. obviously this is about my relations but the fact that you can never go back to a time that existed before and i think that is sort of woven through this book and that i'm constantly growing up seeing people who longed for another place and are
trying to rebuild it in this new country that was supposed to be home but to them but didn't feel like home. and the reason i tell the founder of pakistan his story through the woman who he left behind is because of that. he was not just the founder but he had a personal life and in some ways the creation of pakistan involved a great personal loss for him. he died on february 20, 1929. she was buried in one of bombay's muslim cemeteries. it was here that mohammad visited her in august 1947 in the days before he left for karachi. the last days he would ever spend in bombay. here the grave of the women he had lost for the sake of the country had to create mohammad
was said to have wept. when your he too would lie dying far away in newborn pakistan. in september 1948 almost 20 years after the death he too would be gone. mohammed had gained a country but lost his love. he was buried in the center of karachi and over his grave a pristine mausoleum of marble was built. its unblemished dome could be seen far and wide. mohammed came to pakistan to die and in that he belongs to pakistan. the children of pakistan learned a lot about him about his education, his political acumen, his strategic prowess that we never learned about his non-muslim wife, about the woman he had loved. >> that's beautiful. thank you for reading that. and i'm curious the title of
the book is an intimate history of pakistan but the fact that we have many books about political history and all of that what you meant by wanting to sort of have this also be a historical record for people of this country that was founded 60 years ago the idea that you felt knowing the intimate history was key to understanding the country. >> yeah, i mean before an american audience i taught in american colleges and i generally write for an american audience. you kind of as a pakistani as i imagine most immigrants feel this way wants everyone to know the larger context of what you are talking about instead of having the isolated nuggets of pakistan's drone attacks in pakistan as al qaeda to have a tapestry of what the society is like. so i wanted to weave together
stories. pakistan today didn't just become pakistan today and i wanted people to see that in sort of a cinematic escape of just human beings, ordinary pakistanis. the other challenge often for me as a pakistani writer is that you now here i am telling you this story of an ordinary middle-class family. that is not a narrative. that in general i mean it's not just pakistan but in general people from my background don't become writers. they become computer programmers and i guess i did become a lawyer but i'm obviously not doing that when i'm writing. and we don't get to tell the stories of what ordinary life is like and how that is woven together and sometimes a fence
like benazir's assassination affects life and other times their offense that should affect life but they don't. you know the story revolves around polygamy and how the laws on marriage affect women but the fact is a lot of women in pakistan have no idea what these laws are and how they affect them. so in a sense is posing a question. should we have been more interested? shouldn't the women in my family have known what the laws were and that is sort of how ordinary people live their lives and how many of us actually pay attention? things that are going to abridge our rights on a daily basis. we are consumed more by the approximate what happens to her husbands and wives and children and it's very similar in pakistan.
so in that sense the book is also christian where women's rights are or where they should be, how and why women do and don't organize. the two sort of binaries that you seemed between my aunt and the other wife are important questions. my aunt was a housewife. she was raised to have children and to raise children. the other woman was a career woman. she met my uncle at work. those are choices that women face about the good with the bad woman and how bad is constructed in societies and how you have more or less freedom based on those choices and how they are going to affect you. and finally i think the crucial thing was that i saw in many ways women being the instrument of subjugation to other women.
that's something that is difficult to talk about in any society but i think one of the most insidious ways that women perhaps contribute to each other's oppression is by not being mindful, his by themselves sort of buying into a male mindset where the other woman is the enemy and not the man who is at the center of this arrangement. so that's a question i think for the people who read to decide where the blame lies and the different perspective even in those limited choices can give you a different read on the situation or a different set of choices for yourself. >> thank you. i'm sure many of you have questions about the book is mostly about how it's written
and this is a great time to perhaps open up the floor to those who want to ask her about the book. >> if he could just make sure to come to the microphone. >> this is a question that my wife asks me many times and she says so there is this woman who has a son. the son loves a woman. she takes care of him but when he grows to become an adult he looks at his mother like somewhat inferior in society and treats his wife the same way. how can a man coming from the belly of a woman whom he loves. it's his mother. i'm sure they love them. the pakistani men love their mothers. how can he then see his mother
as a person inferior? and then when he marries he doesn't treat his wife is an equal to himself. how can that happen to? that's beyond my comprehension and my wife's comprehension. >> wow, okay. i wish i had an answer to this question. i think my best guess would be and perhaps i guess i know this not from being a son but from being a daughter is that children are people anywhere want to identify with whoever is powerful so when they see their
mothers not having power they identify with the father who has the power because everybody sees and i think perhaps is as much of a natural instinct as is to love this to be the person that is calling the shots and deciding what happens. in this book at least you get quite a bit -- and i am sure a lot of my perspective is determined by the fact that i'm a twin and i had a twin brother so everything that i saw i saw double in that i could see how it would be different if i was a boy and that obviously influenced how i saw my aunt's life and how i saw the world around me and i think that
underscores how we determine our relationships. it makes no sense. misogyny makes no sense but it exists. >> hi. i'm looking forward to reading the book. so it's clear that benazir bhutto was an inspiration figure for you growing up. i'm wondering if today you see any either political figures or civil society groups that are advancing the place of women in pakistan society? >> i think that the battles in pakistan are being fought on a very individual basis. the women for example if you go to karachi use public transport and they may be wearing burkas
and they are there. they are riding the buses and they won't give up their seats and they are going to work. it's in the students who fight against -- in pakistan there is a big issue about limiting the quota for girls in medical school for example. it's the girls who are fighting against that. the pakistani women of our universities all the time, every year, year after year outdo the boys in terms of their grades. so there is definitely a lot of promise and a lot of hope because we have a young pakistan pakistan. our pakistan is 60% under 20 and half of that are women and so the push is there and in a lot of ways you see the conflict because there is transformation because women are out there.
they have to earn. they are out in the malls. they are in a shop selling things. they are in the offices. they are at the airport. even now if you go half of the officers there are women. they are there and they are pushing. it's conflict ridden because the war in pakistan is over public space. you know women's visibility is a huge political issue and in the book the reason why i emphasized inside outside dynamic is because women are coming outside outside, and that's what inspires in many ways the backlash against them to push them back in, to push them into a different life but yeah i would say and i mean you know the fact that my editors are running the newspaper that we are writing things about what's
happening. we are bringing it out into the forefront. they are not willing to back down and politically though there is a lot of conflict and they don't have a presentation but that doesn't mean that individually they are giving up their drive for education and their drive for politically. >> thank you very much for talking about women and their progress in pakistan. i wanted to share a little something in answer to the question that the gentleman posed about how the sun treated his mother and his wife as an
inferior because pakistan is not the only country that has polygamy. in ancient times china also had that and my own great-grandfather had 18 concubines but his wife did not get treated with less respect. i think that's the difference because he gave her the power of the purse string. he had two houses just like your uncle. he had a house for the concubines. he had a house for his primary wife and in that house she had the money. she decides how to spend that money and believe me, because he respected her the children, the sons respected her and other men respected her. and i hope for the sake of
pakistan that with the women working and becoming financially independent that someday this will also happen, that the women will be respected. >> yes but i actually would say and that is one of the issues that i try to express in the book. there is a difference between respect and love. i am not sure that she lost so much respect as she felt unloved and for me, that is perhaps the most pernicious thing about polygamy or the fact that she couldn't leave and he could have the wife that he married to please his family and the wife that he marries for love but she could only have him. but you know, that's kind of a difficult question. does someone have the right to be loved and is that the same
thing as gratitude or duty or respect? thank you for your comment. >> i just wanted to first say that writing this book is incredibly brave on your part. for someone of a pakistani background who knows what it's like to even talk about certain stories within the family you are not allowed to say certain things. i am very impressed and very amazed that you even have the ability to write this. that is fantastic. but my question, what challenges do you continue to encounter in writing this book? >> well this is the first event. [laughter] i am sure a lot of my family are watching this and i am not sure but i mean i agree and do two
things they give me courage, the first is that i love all the women in my family very very dearly and it's been difficult for me to see them believe that their lives didn't mean anything. so for me writing this book was a way to sort of deal with, or you know pay my own march to them and say that your lives have meant something. i couldn't write this book if they hadn't gone through what they did and done it with the grace that they did. so i think that is what i believe. you're absolutely right, and a family you present harmony by not taking a position and i have
taken a position on everything and everyone. so i don't know. when i was writing it i told myself no one is going to read this. that was the only way for me to get through it day by day. but now it's a book and you can buy it and read it and you know everything about her family. but hopefully -- it is definitely comes from the desire that people realize that all families have these issues and that we cannot as a culture or a world become more empathetic and less we try to stand up for these issues. that is really what the goal is just to try to get to stand in a
pakistani person choosing to see how the world looks to them. thank you. >> hi. my question is twofold. part of it is as a pakistani american wheat grew up hearing things often quoted how jenna talked about women being safe in pakistan. i was at an event and a former pakistani ambassador said believing that women are going to bring pakistan back into this golden era or whatever you want to call it. so my question is i guess in what ways do you see women reclaiming bad or fulfilling that notion that you often hear men or the people mentioning and the second part of the question is the book deals with polygamy and i guess how was it seen in pakistan these days the notion
of polygamy or taking more than one wife? is it devices or is there something going on there? >> it's very divisive and it's an issue that has suddenly gained a lot of attention. i get more letters if i write an article about polygamy. i get more letters generally than any other topic and that's because like i said you have a transforming society. suddenly women are out there and they are earning and there's a lot of, there is a lot of confusion about what the new pakistan will look like a pakistan where is a largely urban pakistan. 20 years ago pakistan used to be a rural country and now in the 20 -- by 2030 is estimated to become an urban country but karachi, the city that this book
centers around is the largest muslim city in the world. it's 18, 19 million people and of course living in a city that size requires women to earn and be out there. so that is sort of a conundrum that the society is dealing with. one of the ways in which especially the more conservative elements want to preserve an old system where women were still in the house is to say the way we have no destitute women -- it's funny. in one sense of polygamy is supported by people who are very traditional and want to keep the old system and in another sense is supported by people who are almost like post-feminists in their thinking. it's like it's my choice and who has the right to tell me so those debates are going on.
nearly every soap and pakistan features that let me -- polygamy issue. that is the center. our women constantly going to look at their role in society as conducted through men because that's essentially what polygamy in that context or in this book's context is. how much you can control your husband means how much you have respected control over money and freedom to do this or that. so that is being perpetuated instead of saying they are saying okay the islamic way to have no destitute women is for every man to marry four women and if you are a devout woman you should not have an objection to your husband taking another wife because you need to be that selfless. those are things again like i said the whole point of
describing this life one week and another week that she had to live reveal the absurdity of certain rules when they are translated to people's lives. you cannot divide your affection equally. it is an impossibility. you know that if you are a parent and definitely in this situation. so i think that is a question that is being debated and in terms of the victories even if the victories are directly coming out of a big feminist movement they are coming like i said in terms of demographic changes. the islamic ideology a week or so ago one of the biggest issues in pakistan have been that men can divorce women by saying i divorce you three times. this council, 1969 and that's also in the book they pass a law saying you cannot divorce a
woman like that. since 1961 until two weeks ago the islamic ideology has been saying that is wrong because men have that right and you cannot abridge that. now they say actually that's right and the reason for that is because a lot of people are getting divorced. pakistan according to them has seen a 100 or 200% increase in divorces so now they are thinking i'll go okay were preserving the rights of men but now we have to think about families because people live in the cities and they get fed up with each other and they go their own way. she says just say it three times and i will be out of here. [laughter] you know, it's happening, it's happening. so there is definitely change is coming whether people like it or not and women are part of that change. they are having to fight a very tough battle and my generation
at least has grown up under stories like this. in a lot of ways i think the things that this generation is doing are motivated by the fact that look this is what was and we don't want that. >> somewhere in your book i think it was the early part of it you covered events that took place way back in 1922 and i thought they were very beautifully reviewed. i want to know what prompted you comment for those of you who haven't read the book i am referring to the marriage to a much younger woman and i want to know what prompted you to tie that story in with this book?
>> well there are a lot of reasons. the biggest reason is because there is this question of plurality and can muslims and hindus be married or live together and i found in that story so to give you the background to this the founder of pakistan and married a parsi woman in the 1920s who was very beautiful, much younger than him and the son of the richest man in bombay. she converted at that mary jane at that time both of them and reading the history, were very much motivated by this anti-imperialist sentiment that was going through at the time united india. it didn't matter if you are farsi and muslim and you have that difference, you were all
against the british and you were agitating against the british and getting them out of there. and that's what that marriage was based on. in some ways to see the demise of that marriage that took place here now for me when i was looking through the record in researching this book was perhaps the demise of that dream, that well until the british were there a lot of people like hindus and muslims could be united against them but once the british were gone that unity crumbled and that's definitely a theme i think of the book that do you always need someone to hate to justify your own life? whether it's the poor that are afterwards politically pakistan's obsession with india.
my aunt up session with the other wife you know do we consciously do that? do we have to have to justify what we are doing. if i want to say that my choices are correct do i have to say all of your choices are wrong because they are not the same as mine? thank you so much. thank you. >> i have two questions. one of them is viewed -- did you get to meet benazir bhutto? >> i never met her. >> the other question is in your opinion what is the worst effect of polygamy especially the effects on children? >> yes and in this case of course i don't want to give too much away but my aunt could not have children and that was the justification but since then i have written often on polygamy in terms of articles.
there are horrific effects on children because obviously they don't have two parents and they have an absentee father a lot of times. there is really good research done on it by a group called sisters in islam which is a muslim feminist organization and they did a great study that actually interviewed women in polygamist marriages and children to see sort of the emotional effects on children living in this arrangement. also then the things that happen if there are a number of wives and if one wife moves from favor to another, her children are also move from favors and you go from from being a best-loved kid to the less love kit and so on so i definitely recommend -- [inaudible] >> any last questions?
>> i was interested when he said that you are one of a twin and the twin is a boy. >> yes, he is watching right now. [laughter] he is watching on tv right now so i'm sure he wants to know what i am going to say. [laughter] the first thing what he said when he saw the book is that better not have any bad stuff about me. you can read the book and there is no bad stuff about him at all. >> that is what i was curious about his thought of what you have done. yup asleep seemed that he would love you, being attached to you at birth than he would have feelings about you and that you all would share feelings between the two of you so what does he think of what you are doing and
the role that you are playing in the society? >> a great last question because he is extremely supportive. he is very proud of me and has been through everything i've been through it myself but you know the book also tries to bring this out, that often individual men don't really have the power to do a lot so you know my father and my grandfather in this story did not want my aunt to suffer. they wanted him to not do this but the community had sort of disintegrated through the migration from india to pakistan so perhaps even the communal control that used to exist where you wouldn't let someone do this to someone else had failed and they weren't able to stop this
from happening. so i think that is important to remember, that you know there are men who are definitely very supportive of the men and i have had them in my life. i have also had other nonsupportive people but definitely so he is very supportive. i hope at least some of that was on camera so he can see how nice i am being. >> do you support mail readers also? >> absolutely. like i said this is not an monochrome of misogyny in anyway and i have tried very hard to bring that out in my book. manhattan do have and continue to have a very important role in being right there with women and
trying to change structures. sometimes they are not successful but that effort in that drive is definitely there and then in women's lives are intertwined. you cannot always separate the two and they are living life together. >> hi. a final question but i wanted to ask if you could contrast the experience of polygamy and where you have seen men being married to multiple women at the same time in pakistan and the arab countries and i mean my sense as the pakistani has been that yes you do see multiple wives with age not very common in compared to what i have heard anecdotally what happens in arab countries it's a very rare occurrence relative to that. >> it used to be i mean
obviously this book talks about the fact at the time that this happened this was unheard of. there was no precedent for people to see that but i would say it is changing very fast. right now it is quite common. i know many many people who are in polygamist marriages and socially it is becoming acceptable. you could argue that is perhaps because pakistan has gone through arabization and islamic position. you have a lot of people who have gone to the gulf and seen a different culture and come back and try to replicate that because the myth is that what is arab is more muslim than what is south asian and so there are
many dimensions to it. but the more times than not they can be exploited so if there's a poor girl from a poor family you know she can be a third wife to someone who's older wives -- i've seen situations in which older wives are sick or ailing. i need someone to take care of the kids and do the housework so i'm going to go to a poor family and bury a young girl who can do all of those things. so i mean all of that needs to be unraveled. it's exploitation. there is a marital gloss over. >> thank you so much. [applause] >> thank you everybody. [applause]
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