tv Book Discussion on Anonymous Soldiers CSPAN March 7, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm EST
freedom fighters. >> preuss, welcome back bruce, welcome back to the wilson center. congratulations on this accomplishment. let's begin with some context. anonymous soldiers begins as world war i was drawing to a close and the british have conquered jerusalem. in palestine in the 1920s, 1930s the british fail repeatedly to reconcile competing arab and jewish demands. it was the british mandate destined to fail? >> before i i answer that if i could just think the wilson center for this event. if i. if i can -- i can say unequivocally if it were not for the wilson center this book would not be possible. i really want to thank the previous president, lee hamilton current president, jane harman the library.
this is a huge treasure here the wisdom of the united states congress, which is not something you here often come in creating the wilson center in making it a tremendous resource for scholars but also a resource to discuss i think cutting-edge policy issues and my old friend rob not just for his friendship and support but for his help over the years. he is under the weather and kindly refused to hand the baton to someone else to chair this. now i will answer your question. the mandate was necessarily due to fail. let me provide some context. one of the problems is britain made conflicting promises to the arabs and jews in palestine. they pledged that if the arabs fought alongside britain against germany and
the ottomans that certain territories would be granted their freedom and exactly a moment before general allenby conquered jerusalem and britain issued the belford declaration pledging itself to defend the establishments and palestine as the jewish national home. subsequently the league of nations awarded britain a mandate a mandate and charged britain with preparing palestine for eventual independence. i think that if one looks at what is really a very melancholy thirty-year history of british rule in palestine the british undermine themselves. at least the prevailing sentiment amongst both arabs and jews in palestine is that british policy could be influenced or persuaded or forced to adjust through acts of violence. almost immediately after almost immediately after the beginning of the zionist enterprise following world war i
when britain permitted larger numbers of jewish immigrants to come to palestine this precipitated a series of very serious riots. in 1920 the british responded by somewhat redefining its policy limiting jewish immigration and adopting a policy of palestine making future immigration dependent upon palestine's economic conservative capacity. that sent a message to both communities in palestine that violence paid. this occurred in 1929 after serious riots convulsed the country and the british government attempted to crawl back the belford declaration. in 1936 until 1939 when the arab rebellion took place on the eve of world war ii in 1939 britain took the
enormously significant step of completely redefining its policies toward palestine issuing the 1939 white paper which imposed severe limitation on immigration and drastic restrictions on jewish land per -- jewish land purchase. the documents don't lie. one of the jewish militant underground organizations discuss this likes themselves. in 1939 they declared a revolt against british rule which was short-lived because world war ii broke out. but quite extensive the extensive, the arab used violence and it pays. i think that was the problem even at the end of the mandate. british officials in palestine and in london in documents i examined say i examined say the problem
with palestine is everyone believes that violence works and can persuade us to change our policy. by then unfortunately it was too late. >> you write about historical figures who loom large in the history of israel, abraham stern winston churchill and others. can you paint a brief portrait a brief portrait of these men and their roles in the events depicted in the book for us? >> to me abraham is a particularly interesting character who almost defies easy description. he was a poet and visionary. again womanizer, dreamer, and extremist. a very accomplished classicist. a pupil of judah magness and
believe strongly in establishing a binational jewish state in israel. stern took a different path. he believed that not only should there be a jewish state within palestine but that there should be a resurrection of the jewish kingdom. he was determined to emulate the example of the irish during world war i. during the uprising season the opportunity of britain. teefive britain preoccupied with world war i to make a bold stab at attempting to rest from the british islands independence and attempted to follow very much that example. they never numbered more than a few hundred people. except for one the titular
incidents, the assassination of the lord morning, british minister of state for the middle east, a close and personal friend of churchill's, one of his oldest political allies, an official with cabinet standing. that assassination did, i think, have a substantial impact on the course of history. generally because they lacked arms, arms money, had a number of mad schemes, it was a less effective are of the jewish revolt in the 1940s. i we will convey on the other hand very different. a backwater the confluence of poland, lithuanian and russia. grew up in an environment of anti- semitism. his oldest memory was his father defending a rabbi with a very long beard and a polish soldier attempted to cut it off with the bayonet.
his father uses walking stick to strike the polish soldier which he knew would result in his arrest and his own merciless beating which had a huge impact on him. from a young age he had unique oratorio powers, was very learned and eventually obtained a lot agree. at the age of 15 he heard the founder of revisionist zionism who advocated a muscular, aggressive form of zionism. he was completely taken and rose through the ranks of the youth movement associated with his party eventually becoming head of the organization and poland and significantly head of its propaganda unit in the 1930s propaganda is not quite a notorious word as it yesterday. arrested by the russian secret police and was on a boat to siberia for imprisonment when hit hitler invaded russia.
poland's jews were given the choice of continuing their journey or enlisting in the polish army in exile. they now surprisingly chose the latter and fortuitously found themselves in route to palestine. he left the polish army because of his prominence before the war he assumed a leading role and emerged as a master strategist. his understanding of what we would call today information operations or psychological operations really distinguished that it was the 1st postmodern or post-world war ii campaign of national liberation that consciously used spectacular, dramatic acts of violence deliberately played out in the national media and not a local
audience which, of course, had been a feature a feature of terrorism and guerrilla war in the past. secondly, such as much to direct its audience to london in jerusalem and beyond london to new york washington dc paris, london aboveground political organizations which were extremely active in the united states including putting on a hit broadway play called a flag is born raising money to stage many of the aboveground political organizations that today funnel money and funds to terrorist and underground organizations. so it was effective to communicate the message and use that to pressure the british. winston churchill, a lot does not have to be said except that he was a
lifelong zionist. he figures prominently in the book in 1943 he embarked on a daring plan to reverse the white paper and partition palestine. as uncomfortable as uncomfortable as it is for some people it is in the british archives. literally on the eve of the us presidential election november 1944 1944 churchill proposed the next big three meeting be in jerusalem, not tehran where his plan would have been discussed. two days after the presidential election is when the gang shot lord morning, churchill's friend and member of the british cabinet. churchill supports zionism but the partition plan it would have been difficult to get through british parliament.
i believe it was a lost opportunity. very interesting individual. studied at a prestigious seat of learning in cairo. organized clubs and demonstrations against jewish immigration to palestine. one of the actors in the 1920 1920 riot against jews and was sentenced to prison and pardoned. well-meaning but the british thought by giving him a senior office that this would moderate his views. it did not moderate his views. in fact by the end of the
1920s it achieved this very close fusion of religious nationals which transformed the situation in palestine precipitating the 1929 riots. he fled palestine, as many people know spent part of world war ii in roman and in berlin. very active in recruiting bosnian muslims to serve in the ss. one thing i no that did not make it into the book is that interestingly he was paid by the nazis as much as field marshal rommel hitler's famous general. a very nefarious character. >> in the preface of "anonymous soldiers" you raise the fundamental question, does terrorism work. based on the lessons of the campaigns you have researched what are the circumstances and factors
that enable some terrorist campaigns to succeed and others to fail? >> this is one of the 23rd rails in kayfor. the 1st is really raising the question of whether terrorism is a more effective strategy than many claim it is. secondly -- two things. first, i think history itself is mono causal. one can argue narrowly. from a. from a terrorism perspective you can say terrorism cost world war i. the assassination of archduke franz ferdinand. students of history now it is more complex than that. the anglo german naval angle, russian imperialist aims in the balkans that had made it more tenuous. everything is much more complex.
i am not making the argument that terrorists were the only ones that resulted in the contamination or series of events that led to the founding of israel. far more important factors, and the holocaust, of course, is an enormous one for thousands of jewish displaced persons languishing in camps throughout europe. far more moderate legitimate zionist operating -- operations engaged in diplomacy and their own information operation. discussing terrorism becomes uncomfortable because no one wants to admit they had any role. that was the part of the purpose of this book to eliminate under what circumstances and what makes terrorism effective. a lot of it has to do with the response and the problems of the british encountered in palestine. palestine was an enormously militarized country at the end of world war ii.
100,000 british troops and police. basically 20 british soldiers for every arab males you. we think of some of the force ratios the united states forces and iraq and afghanistan, a tremendous advantage, but the strategy worked because as he described, result is turning palestine into a glass house where it was always front page news these daring and dramatic acts of violence did focus attention on britain, focused attention on the large british military presence with more pervasive security forces and stronger appearance of terrorists. but also the image of palestine as an occupied territory where oppression was often reported throughout the world. some of those lessons, the internationalization of the conflict, the appeal to audiences well beyond the
foot light not just in the capitol of the country that may be being governed are occupied, appeals to occupied, appeals to the united nations, attempts to involve the united states it's something that unfortunately we have seen recur throughout the decades in terms of the terrorism issue, and writing history you must view the past and its own terms and to view it as clearly as possible and to avoid bringing contemporary values -- not to say you can't render judgments, but at the time fascinatingly governments and the media had far less hesitation labeling these acts of violence terrorism than they do today.
a couple of weeks ago for instance there was an attack in palestine on a school. major newspapers throughout the world, their coverage, coverage, the word terrorism did not appear. the bbc has a a policy against using that word. sixty years ago that was not the case. so i am not making a value judgment. look at phenomenon and call it by its name to apply the same sort of reasoning. >> well, violence played a major role role in the anticolonial struggle that paved the way for the foundation of israel. certainly not the only tactic but can you tell us what other methods were used in word terrorism fits in those? >> one interesting thing that is often ignored is that there is an aboveground
political apparatus operating in the united states from literally before world war ii to it used around congress, to fund raise. it was one thing. any number of zionist organizations, the jewish agency elected jewish representative organization and how stein, the world zionist organization all these entities were more active and played seminole roles in the creation of israel. i want to really very clinically assess the commissions were political violence played a role. in that sense where it played a role is in hastening the process making it less tenable for britain to remain in control it is interesting.
the 1st six chapters cover from 1917 to 1939. the next 1939 to 1945. the final ten chapters 1945 to 1947 because i wanted to zero in on what british officials were saying in palestine and, of course, senior british policy decision-makers debating and discussing in london. there you find again, it cuts against the conventional wisdom that many people bridle or bristle with but looking at the documents amazingly even though britain had granted india its independence in the beginning of 1947 still wanted to retain palestine because of its strategic value. they were they were in the process of completing negotiations with egypt for the anglo egyptian
treaty of 1946 1946 so britain had to leave the suez canal and looked very comfortably, the british equivalent of our joint chiefs of staff, chiefs of staff repeatedly and documents say no matter what we have to retain basing rights in the future of palestine. today you see a huge storage facility. back in the 1940s that was was the terminus of the iraq petroleum pipeline. the deposit of their oil. they want to retain. only really february of 1947 where the documents show clearly crisis got too high. rapidly expanded. still a large number of
british soldiers serving in the army that had been conscripted before january 11944, and that is when you see because of the pressure of violence were britain has decided that we can't maintain this large military presence anymore. the person who wrote the checks, head of treasury said we can't afford to have a base on a wasps nest. a review in the washington times said the wasps nests were lots of wasps. if you read that exactly the wasp nest he is talking about are the two jewish organizations in the daylight that they posed. >> the bombing of the king david hotel in 1946 1946 remains one of the most infamous terrorist attacks in history. can you explain the controversy and discuss what "anonymous soldiers"
concludes really happened? >> this is i think, one of the most important chapters of the book and one where i found a considerable amount of knew archival data. first and foremost, it has to be said despite its portrayal these days in the media a luxurious hotel at the time, one of the most luxurious in the world, but it was not just a hotel. this was not as we see terrorism today today, want an infliction of violence on random civilian targets. in fact seven stories of the hotel had been taken over by the british government. the secretariat was located there, british army they're, british army headquarters for palestine and today jordan were located there the offices of british military intelligence, as were the offices of the british security services, services, mi five and the secret intelligence service in my six. this this was a legitimate
military target. only a small part of the hotel was open to the public which was a fatal flaw. in the desire to preserve the veneer of normality the hotel was not close down completely. there is a lot of archival evidence of british senior intelligence officials living in palestine saying, my gosh this is a disaster waiting to happen. there were plenty of intelligence warnings that there was a plan to attack for those reasons. actual intelligence often at that specific date and time and that is what was missing. a fairly false sense of security that it was still open to the public. the hotel was bombed. to this day it remains one of the largest number of casualties in the 20th century. ninety-one persons were killed, arabs, jews, britain's as well. as a result there has been
controversy about whether the issue of a warning to evacuate the hotel and secondly whether it was communicated insufficient time to allow the evacuation. i tried to put together a detailed chronology terrorist operations are easy -- not so easy but easy but the conception of them does not often follow there execution. to make a long story short the effort to plant the bomb was very well-planned. the the planting of the bombs did not go according to plan. a gunbattle broke out. the.-- the problem is the generous amount of time that is often being maintained is in greater doubt, and it seems that from what i was able to
ascertain was allowed to evacuate the building. the hotel switchboard never communicated to the british officers were officials and this is extremely important because this is why it was such a great place to work. a book published in 1948 alleged that the number two most senior official in palestine when he heard about the war and allegedly said i'm not here to take orders from jews, i'm here to give them orders, it is a mark on his name. they are embellished over time.
he refused the warning. on one account he pulled out a a pistol and threatened to shoot anyone in his office that left. he ordered british soldiers with bayonets to surround the hotel. hotel. i was able to piece together how this story became more and more embellished. at the end of the day i don't think that the results the responsibility of the 91 lives that were killed here. this is the controversy widely remaining a contentious issue even today. the one thing i did find never published which i thought was fascinating, but you get it through inside baseball when you write over four and a half years. an effective plan to ensure the head of british police
intelligence in the local mi five station chief to make sure they were both out of palestine supposedly chasing up a plot. a document signed by h a ajr kim fielding, the notorious cold war spy who passed the information that there was a plot. and being a spy he had to have his nose and everything which is why he was poking around in palestine. years later when i went back the original was gone and there gone, and there was a photocopy in its place to make sure no one tampered with it. >> icy. i think you have given us a sense of the magisterial works main themes and some of the fascinating findings that you were able to get from the archives and many
>> could not find the button earlier. >> okay. >> let me say one more time. >> everything. >> three sentences and add something to the story. you prove very well. need to understand, any society at that time was constructed in exactly the opposite way all western societies are. domestically characteristic and allow slowly or for the level movement to edge -- the rebel movement to edge and. israeli society was built the other way around. the majority of institutions were labor and capitalism was marginal. the major fighting force was
from the left. as you.out very well, development is one exception so 1st of all in terms of number of influences as you point out very well, an additional story. as you.out so well what part of the side was public opinion? the british held back that they left the majority force choosing to focus on puerto rico rather than violence. refugees escaping post not
to europe. and then in all those cases the british left. a good part of the success. the question remains how much weight you give to terror or how terror and how much weight you give to the gandhi methods? >> that is a very important question. obviously obviously with your first-hand experience you know the nuances of the struggle. this is not a book just about that. i would say that certainly your.is absolutely right. if right. if you ask but the british feared the most, certainly they thought they were
fanatics and were scared of them but knew their numbers. they engaged mostly in political assassination. never never more than 5,000 persons, including support. what they always worried about was a group that numbered 40 to 60,000. then they realized if both of those paramilitary forces decided to actively participate that holding on the palestine would be untenable. there was a brief time after world war ii that they allied and engaged in attacks against british targets. the the radar stations along the coast that intercepted or ships bringing illegal immigrants. the famous matter of the bridges. linking palestine, lebanon, syria, jordan where the
nuance shift in the girl's that is another controversy. they had a role in selecting targets. a more complicated story but after the program that arose the alliance fell apart completely. again, they. again they concentrated almost exclusively on information operations and illegal immigration and know longer attacked the british. that is where the importance of the services as a more smaller force constantly keeping pressure on the british and making rule untenable in the sense that there was a large garrison guarding against a revolt. and that -- again, i am not trying to finesse this.
i am not trying to say one was more important than the other, but as someone who spent his entire career studying the effects of terrorists and political violence and government decision-making and trying to understand countermeasures that can be used to defeat terrorism that was my interest and why i thought the story at least in english literature is neglected. in hebrew literature it is controversial because as you described the knew zionist organization, revisionist parties, opposition to the labor zionist was precisely the issue of socialism versus capitalism. there still i think woven into the fabric of the israeli. today. in english language the debate and the west -- debate and nuances are less well-known. >> another question right there. good speakers please identify themselves.
>> tom parker george washington parker, george washington university. can you comment on mongolian views about the violent tactics? maybe making a distinction between the military targets which are not terrorism, per se you no typical of the definition of nonmilitary targets. >> firstly of course it was nominally under the political guidance. the shock troops in essence. the lead force, very different. they were lifelong enemies. the tremendous personal antipathy. certainly after tremendously
antagonistic relationship. they agree themselves disdained and strenuously object to the tactics that were used. again, this is covered in the book. 1944 and 1945 ordered members to hunt down and in prison or turn them over to the british authorities. so just as was talked about the nonviolence were controlled and prudent use of force i would say as opposed to violence both believed there was no time for talk.
he placed his faith in negotiations. humanitarian pressure, lobbying information operations. they thought the time for action was now. the time for action at the end of world war i because the british had closed the gates to palestine. they had to be pried open or forced open immediately. their impatience is what put pressure. i mean, likely history would have unfolded in certain way that might have been affecting. but the key is they hasten that process and to pried britain of the options they want.
that is where the key lies. as we see today with aboveground political parties and their relationships with militant groups is naked often even though the nonviolent entities condemned the violence, nonetheless the violent parties can play into a process that facilitates political aims. >> difference between these groups on the question of means and use of terror? do they differ on ends like whether or not to accept partition? >> well, i thought stern had visions of re-creating israel. in fact, both looks -- both groups when you look at their internal state and propaganda state believe that they could work in partnership with the arabs. the british betrayed both sides, were untrustworthy because they had an
imperialist interest in palestine. the logo interestingly enough was as you might except -- expect a militant organization was a fist clutching a rifle. interestingly the map behind it was not just what yesterday israel but outside of the jordan river to include jordan and israel. nonetheless at the end of the day i think he was a a smart enough strategist and politician he embraced it. >> many will be interested in the title of the book, "anonymous soldiers". >> sure. "anonymous soldiers" is the title of upon that stern wrote when he was a senior commander. it then became their theme song such as it was. when he left and they declared unilaterally a truce and the outbreak of
world war ii said it would suspend its revolt against britain, suspend all operations he thought harkening back to the irish example now is the time to ratchet up terrorism and violence. he took it with him. translated as unknown soldiers, but anonymous soldiers refers to the fighters. i use it as the title of the book to refer to all the parties that were engaged in the fighting in palestine at that time. >> let's take a question from a gentleman here. >> my name is stephen shore. any information? >> you know my lack of wisdom in tackling a topic like terrorism i have already displayed. perhaps my one mock wise move was i stop i stop
actually in september 1947 because that is when britain announced they could not resolve the political future of palestine and turned it over to the united nations to decide. that is what i was interested in. i don't get into that which of course, occurred more than a year later. move was i stop actually in >> the gentleman on the side >> thank you for what you did. as an italian as an italian i want to add -- >> identify yourself. >> sorry. mussolini was the 1st one to give money to help husseini and not hitler. mussolini wanted to get rid of the british helping the jews. what is interesting exactly that they were helping the
show you how desperate he was to ferment this revolt against the british that is another part of this. a perfect solution that germany could rid itself of the jewish problem by throwing the jewish out. and of course you are absolutely right. keeping the incident in my vest pocket because in 1951 there was a book called the revolt. a brilliant book one of the classics of wars of liberation, underground warfare terrorist
campaigns, whatever you want to call it. a copy of it was found in al qaeda's library in kandahar in 2,001 when us forces invaded afghanistan. i have studied very closely because of his transformation from being a terrorist group to political party. we no from multiple sources. what we call terrorism today a pretty contemporary vision. the american embassy is blown up and we have no compunction about saying that is terrorism. they blew up the british embassy in rome. we only attacked military targets. that is not true. attack the attack the immigration department office, land office, taxation office, the offices of local
municipalities. of course, the bombing of us federal government building in the city. the jerusalem rail station attack london and madrid bombings. i mean,, the other interesting -- one of the more interesting titles of a chapter in my book is called beating a dog with the kennel. that was a quote from an intelligence document that said in 1946 because the british were not leaving palestine fast enough the plan was to bring that struggle to europe and britain. in both places it never quite materialized. a lot of the security and scrutiny we see the british were doing 60 years ago. and they were pretty successful at blunting it. a bombing of the colonial office in london in 1947. there were various plots
even one by someone who eventually became foreign affairs minister. unlike other terrorists in the 1940s who found themselves hooded and changed the aircraft, sent to the british version of guantánamo which back then was in kenya because he was from a distinguished family, british detective knocked on his door in london and suggested that he returned to palestine command he packed up and left. and that is why he was not arrested. but you are absolutely right to.that out. >> from the center of israel studies at american university. the 1st few decades after the establishment of israel they were marginalized in
terms of the foundation that was taught. terrorists. an interesting story. her father chief of operations and said that her parents bob the train. liberation fighters, not terrorists. talking about hard enough. she stood out there. and so i'm wondering did that trend obviously what she felt was marginal position. the labor party was in power for a long time. seventy-seven. >> right. >> how about today? modern israelis, do they think of them as terrorists?
>> you are absolutely right. he was a senior officer and was imprisoned. escaped in may 1947. earlier i said a word like propaganda in the 1930s was perfectly acceptable. now it now it is like a 3rd rail type of work. terrorism has assumed a much more pejorative connotation. i may be one of the few people in the world who use it to describe the phenomenon as it is, look at the nature of the act not so much the identity of the perpetrator. i am not making a value judgment. the terrorists asked back then certainly certainly tragic, but a completely different magnitude than today unfortunately. one of the things i despair of the phenomenon despite
my assertions and many others gets worse not better. the stuff we see from isis today is a clear example. so in and of itself that word is used so infrequently there are many streets when you visit israel named after them but you don't want woven international history that terrorism was involved because it is a negative term. secondly if terrorism perhaps succeeds it only encourages others. in the palestinians and plo are quite explicit about this. they model this. they model a lot of what they did. this exemplar. you don't want to discuss those type of things. the political divisions we
were talking earlier still israeli politics and go back to that time that using the word terrorism becomes yet another loaded phrase and volatile rhetoric. one thing -- this is not in the book. it is a thick enough because it is command i had to cut out almost half of it what is fascinating -- and i'm sorry that there was not run even in the epilogue. in september 1948 there was an assassination a swedish national, the un mediator because they feared the partition plan would not favor israel. it is fascinating. this has not happened often in history sense. immediately outlawed the gang ordered the arrest of all of its members in fact
seized 248 members put in jail. one actually lived in exile and cannot return to israel until 19 46 because of 46 because of that arrest. basically the not -- the law directed against jewish terrorists with the same laws the british used in the 1930s and 1940s and are still used against the palestinians today. the blowing up of houses was something the british routinely did during the arab rebellion. this was this was part of the strength of the information operations. there was a price to pay when you blow up jews houses because of their astute use of the media and their ability to play the audiences in paris moscow london, new york, and washington. in the 1930s they did not
have the same information operation. it is fascinating. the same laws use today to combat palestinians were 1st promulgated in 1948 against jewish terrorism. one was in exile for eight years or so. this was quite significant. >> as you.out, there was residence on the palestinian side as well one leader was kind of a counterpart on the palestinian side and how his legacy still has residents in the contemporary kind of arab israel kind of narrative. >> that is a very good issue. in fact, that is why writing this book was surprisingly -- well writing about terrorism can be happy and uplifting but given my
innate pessimism about the world i found writing the book at times enormously depressing. all the all the things we see today happened in palestine back then. last week we had a conference at the white house in washington that talked about how economic opportunities and jobs and education is the surest answer to counterterrorism. this was the argument that was used in palestine, especially by the zionists they would live the let the overall economy of the country to the benefit of everyone, but at the end of the day as a result of the series of riots nationalism and religion always trumped any economic benefit. that benefit. that was one thing i thought was fascinating.
in the 1930s and the whole world was mired in the great depression and palestine's economy was booming largely because of british investment. he would get architecture tremendous public buildings going on. jews fleeing from europe bringing wealth within. palestine was thriving economically while the world was mired in depression is the palestinian arabs did not matter. the states the arab rebellion in 1936. similarly before bin laden there was a very learned man, devout muslim very traditional clothing, read the quran for its military value, as he would put it had this fusion of both politics and resistance. much like much like bin laden in his 50s went to live in caves in galilee to prosecute a struggle
ordained against palestine and british occupiers and also against what he saw was the jews coming to take over the land unlike bin laden he did not avoid being tracked down and killed for over a a decade. the british track him down within a couple of months and that was the end of his revolt. his followers precipitated the arab rebellion and he himself is enshrined in the charter of hamas and the missiles that played a role in precipitating this past summer's gaza war. >> thank you, bruce. our time is up unfortunately. the book "anonymous soldiers" landmark study by professor bruce hoffman. copies are available for purchase outside of the seminar room. i would like to thank all of you for coming today on what passes as a nasty day in washington. i say that because my sister
lives in boston and won't hear that. i would like to thank all of you for attending today. for those viewing on c-span and book tv. for those here please thank bruce hoffman. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> book tv is on facebook. like us to get scheduling news, publishing updates, behind-the-scenes pictures and videos author author information command to talk directly with authors during live programs.