tv Key Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN April 13, 2015 11:00pm-1:01am EDT
votes? we have not been very successful about it over the last couple of cycles. i think some candidates that share a mentioned before have the ability to appeal to those constituencies. >> hi. thank you so much for coming to speak with us today. i am a junior at the college. today it as a form he spoke about short-term and long-term politics unless you start the next chapter on wall street what is your personal long-term goal? >> you are trying to make news just like shira. i am also a father. i have got three who are probably most of the students here age and my personally, my long-term goal is to make sure i do what i can. i have been in public office for a long time and have a wife who
has been a career oriented person and has been doing most of the heavy lifting as far as the future sustainability economically and my family so i'm very engaged in that effort. the economic security of the cantor family but i think long-term i care about this country. i care about and the role that the country place for all of us but also to rule the country plays globally and as i mentioned before i am getting to travel a lot internationally and i see from a business respected as well as a geopolitical perspective there's a real need for american leadership. when you look at what's going on in asia right now the competitiveness and the environment they are was trying trying -- china on the rise and the prospects for increased interaction in the region of asia-pacific and where we are in europe. what kind of rules and the norm are we going to abide by.
>> >> my name is patrick. thanks for the talk if you ted require the president to read one book? >> these are for kids are smart. >> i would say one but i am afraid of the interpretation. >> that is the one to go with. >> fountainhead by allied rand. i feel that although i have read it her and ellis shrugged there is the sense that somehow could do a lot
to bring that philosophy back the other way. also ask him to read dale carnegie how to with friends and influence people. [laughter] >> wire you so concerned about the democratic initiative from the movement without long overdue attempt with belated justice for palestine? with that democratic initiative? with other candidates from other districts? train wreck i disagree wholeheartedly i think it is misplaced and it is wrong. for one to sit here and
equate what is going on between israel in the palestinians to somehow equate the position with incoming rockets killing innocent people, there is a saying that says if the palestinians would put down their arms. if the israelis put down their arms there is no word israel. it is as simple as that prime minister netanyahu is out there is a very forceful way to say if there were a partner in peace we could make progress. but you do have anyone who will recognize israel's right to exist as a jewish state. that is the problem. if no leave recognizes your existence how do you get an agreement?
that is why i am such a strong supporter of the security of israel and and tell the time there is a partner for peace on the other side of the table i seeing the american people will back the position that i take. >> hello. i am a senior at the college and a number of us are here about el political divide so have you noticed that the five growing well you were in congress and how does it make your job more difficult or was strategies to use with this divide? >> good question and apropos at harvard because i had a discussion with the dean. he said it is great to be part of an institution whose mission is to solve problems. i think it is intensified at not know if it has grown so
much that is due to the press and the fragmentation of the press for the ability to access the kind of news that we want with the perspective that we want to hear in these constituents choose to watch the news or read the news that matches their own views. if you take that to put into the extreme, etch do you have in common with one another? then gave is up with advocacy and a lot of times that is confused with the bears so how'd you go about to combat that? is it about leadership committed to a long-term goal? i used to start weekly
caucus meetings i would put up the slide of the screen which would ask the question out is what we're doing it this week from the floor helping the people? if both sides could agree that was the goal we could disagree all day long on that method but at least we said we're here to reflect the notion to help to be elected leaders. i do think it takes leadership committed to that view and a practical ability to understand when the pressures come but not succumb to short-term thinking. >> we have time for a couple more questions. >> i am from the business school burglary mentioned earlier one of the reasons
obama faced resistance we perceive as a lack of the personal touch the been the unanimous rejection of those policies you put forward suggest to we even dale carnegie would be hard pressed to have dinner with that many people so the defined ourselves in that type of situation if they object not solely on the merits. >> you're absolutely right i think what has happened republicans took the view in congress they were motivated to stop the president. i know that. i saw that there was nothing more galvanizing in many instances to be against the president. the point is well made.
but i don't think it is hopeless because starting today if he would start to invite members one by one or four by four to make something work for the last 16 months of his term he ought to do that. would you do when you were faced with someone who will reject you just for who you are? it is tough. but i have seen a difference in the business world people are less quick to adopt that mentality with the mutual interest to do with deal or close a transaction with everyday life you have people lot more reasonable because they have a shared end but in the political of the now we have to work to create that begin stick my
fate you for your service going back to the trade-offs i'm sorry reni ms. jm and i am a fellow of the entry of its the leadership initiatives. :back to your theme short-term verses long term if you look at the long term challenges of social security reform medicare reform or the debt with the current form of government are we ever going to be able to solve that or can recall a constitutional convention to do something more radical to make it work better with long-term issues? >> with the law of unintended consequences with the constitutional convention but i think there will be prospects after this
election. the problem in washington are fundamental differences that the divide has not been bridge with value fund the government or extend or spend the entitlement money. with the tax question has always been the president feels you have to raise taxes are rich and republicans say no new taxes then on this side of spending with the demographics with the connection and the republicans have said since 2009 to transition from the defined benefit plan to a more defined contribution plan have more beneficiaries take the risk. of course, of the democrats
respond that changes the nature of the safety net. those two things you cannot agree the deficit like a transportation bill unless you decide to fund it and to incur more debt like the health care bill, there will be a short-term band-aid fix but over time it has been six years since the rise in budget was put for word that there has been some willingness for some democrats as some republicans willing to close the loopholes on taxes. over time we will get their badges frustrating and you have to be patient and i am not patient to. i understand why the frustration.
>> thanks again for spending time with us. i am with the business school and a former military officer. >> thank you for your service. >> thank you. >> with leadership in the private and public sector within the differences that uc to be an effective leader? what advice would you give to your current colleagues or former colleagues in washington based on your experience? >> the most obvious example is when you are aviator in congress you are in the tour of members who basically they have their own boss at home each member represents about 750,000 people. although you would hope they
would have a sense if they go to washington to accomplish something and explain what has happened to the benefit but because of the short-term pressures that have developed there is not as much incentive or may be of strong third try to go off of their own for what leadership says they should be doing but in the private sector you have direct accountability there is a huge incentive to not follow what is set as policy if you want to stay there but that is the difference but when i advised my colleagues and partners about the experience i had in
washington, one of the things i think that i hear so much disbelief of the lack of functionality and it is almost as if i explain it to you they're not all dysfunctional but there is just so much there with the complexity to gain so much ground. don't give up for golf don't give up. there is so much good with this country. don't give up. for my former colleagues, i would say listen before you
talk. [laughter] because what i have seen and i was out there 40 years i can tell you i had the rhetoric down pretty good guy was an entrepreneur and the businessman and vendors stood literally what it meant to have to make a repayment and payroll and pay taxes and benefits. i get that but this is so easy for the rhetoric to fall off your tongue into reverses what really happened to make things work in practice and i probably knew this man but not as clearly as now but listen before you talk because you will learn something. >> i have a question.
>> i am a harvard graduate. we heard you express your distaste for obama several times you were in congress since 2001 is anything the bush administration or the republican party in general could have won the election in 2008? >> i think i alluded to this before the biggest challenge for the republican party is to the inclusion and not exsolution to welcome the diversity of demographics into the polls that means we need policies that speak to a broad section of the public to be sensitive to those who may not feel that they are necessarily welcome
for the first time last week that there is a provision in the current version that would make a deal contingent upon iran renouncing terrorism ever require the administration to certify that americans were not at risk from any of the terror activities that iran supports. we have them very clear about the fact we hope to resolve this agreement in a way to prevent iran from obtaining nuclear weapons because we are concerned if i ran could obtain a nuclear weapon and would make their support for terrorist organizations even more to address and risky so not in the context we expect to resolve all concerns of terror activities it is the reason that we pursue this agreement to ensure it cannot obtain a weapon and then share that or share
that technology or materials with a terrorist organization. that is why i would continue to strongly oppose that legislation and has the provision to make that deal impossible to implement. what is also true this administration is deeply engaged with congress since the agreement was announced april 2nd. since that time there have then more than 130 telephone calls placed from the president, vice president, members of the cabinet and other senior officials to members of congress on capitol hill. they have been in recess the last couple weeks so we could not have this many face-to-face conversations but that will change today and you also know secretary
kerry secretary louis and other senior officials will have classified briefings over the next two days that reflects the fact we're at the beginning of the process to help members of congress to know the progress iran has made so far and how those would be finalized over the next two and a half months. >> to kraft a an alternative that might satisfy a your concerns to have an oversight role? >> that is not clear the way it is written is what we oppose the we have extensive conversations to make sure every member of congress has
a classified briefing from secretary moniz and a secretary moniz that is responsible for the sanctions regime that has been so successful to pressure iran also intelligence officials to offer the updated assessment about iran's nuclear program and our knowledge of the hour - - of their thinking there is a lot to this agreement that has been reached so far other things is the knowledge and there are details that still need to be worked out where the president wants congress to ensure a renegotiate jurors have the time and space that they need to reach an agreement
>> ponce day leon made iran not have been searching for the fountain of eternal youth people said he was looking for additional properties for the king of spain and colonization which is true. we do know that he came ashore looking at good harbour to gone water and wooded is one of the few freshwater springs in the area and also the location of the first settlement of
st. augustine 42 years before the settlement of jamestown in 55 years before the pilgrims landed on plymouth rock. >> ponce day leon was built by flagler who is a man who was very little known outside the state of florida but one of the wealthiest men in america, a co-founder of standard oil company with rockefeller. a man who always wanted to undertake a great enterprise and as it turns out floor ago was it. he realized he needed to own the railroad between jacksonville and st. augustine to assure the guest could get to his hotel convenient the soul of the dream was beginning to grow.
shoot a requiem for the american police state. don't you wonder about the of volunteers to put these titles together in our room somewhere to say this will get them going wednesday morning and:00 a.m. to add a in a little ambiguity but i can handle this the panel certainly can. you know, the drill. i am a management consultant and work in the executive team building and i love to be a part of this. telephones off even off of vibrate so there is no interference. i will open it up to the panel each of them to give us a 10 minute opening after which i hope they will have questions for themselves and among themselves after that
we go to these microphones. i might have a of a question or two that i don't want to waste but then they are from the year. i want to urge the introverts. don't be afraid i know it is awful to come publicly but often you have very good questions as well as the extrovert's. i will practice age discrimination. will also have of the students ask their questions first. second we are in boulder and i assume we have rocket scientists and intellectuals in the range of between. we appreciate them and we have a great deal of experience but this is about questions so be tight and clear as u.k. and we would
get there as many answers as we can. let's begin. on my right the first speaker leonard pitts, jr. likes to note as a pulitzer prize-winning writer and columnist to range from the political to the personal he launched this week with challenging remarks then we will hear from robert kaufman and a scholar who authored books from and press former presidents nixon and bush as an evangelist professor and now teaches at pepperdine. richard goode is a writer and editor who also has
established his pulitzer prize-winning experience in philadelphia, new jersey but now uses it in faculties of two colleges. of course, i am summarizing in my own words but the accretive transformer in journalism she has taken mother jones magazine that does investigative reporting with the new level of bottom-line excellence you should see an online. it is interesting. plundered kickoff here today because of the things you said it your opening remarks that were noted in the newspaper. would you agree with the panel title we have a police state? and we are about to honor it as a thing of the past?
>> thank you very much for setting me up. [laughter] because i was sitting here making my notes the first one i have is requiem question mark i know what to do dis whoever came up with the titles and is the difficult job of anybody who thinks this is the requiem or a commemoration of the dead is not understand the police stated is alive and well. when i stood on this stage a couple days ago i asked a question what do you see when you see me? speaking as an african-american and thereby to read purpose that question into talking about a few recent episodes. i wonder what the police officer in south carolina
carolina, the white police officers saw when he encountered 50 year-old african-american walter scott. this story recently broke he shot him eight times in the back as he was running away. what did he see that this man was deserving to judge commonly to put eight shots then handcuff the body i suppose my a sentiments are summed up from the tree dies all last night from a comedian that said '' i have felt more guilty eating cookies then this officers seem to feel after he shot a man eight times in the back
so what danger did he perceived for what fere? what threat was there that he thought he deserve that kind of treatment? what did john c. you are probably not familiar with this case but i would suggest you look it up because the video is as appalling or maybe more than what we have seen with lumbar jones -- were a patrol officer pulls up as he waits for the troopers at a traffic stop. he tells the man i want to see your license. he goes in his car to get it will trigger panic says get
out of the car he is not fully inside their reaching inside he complies then the trooper shoots him. the you haven't seen this video you should. now the officer when asked why he had done this in his explanation was he came toward me and he would not stop when i gave him the command and i believe that he believed that which is the sad thing and protocol of about this. the first thing that happens with these things transpire we want to look to the character of the officer to say look for the of klan robe for the evidence of visceral racism i believe he is probably a decent diet or
not a bad copy didn't say let me shoot of black guy then lie about it but because how we have become comfortable to see african-american people or men as the threat first and foremost, with this man came out of his car as he was ordered to he actually perceive a threat. why would you tell all lie that could be so easily disproved by your own dash camera video? what did he see when he saw at lavar jones? a threat to. because lavar jones survived he had a bullet in his hip but they handcuffed him to the gurney in a the hospital for about seven hours before they conceded to save that he was involved another one
but what did police officers in minneapolis st. paul c. with an african-american man with dreadlocks sitting waiting for his kids to get out of school? but don't know if you have been in the sky way's but their sidewalks in the sky as a public thoroughfare. this is america of why do i have to identify myself? that was his response and eventually they take him to the ground there is video on this and they used a taser. he has no criminal intent waiting for his children what did they see waiting for his children to get out of school? un manchin those because there is video that is
attached so we can all look to see for ourselves what happened but ask yourself what about the cases if there is no video? what about what happens with no electronic i recording what happened? even with video isn't a panacea because as the witnesses have this amazing ability to not see what we don't want to see as i think about rodney king were the beating was so bad and so far beyond procedure even the chief of police derogates he is mondale liberal. [laughter] definitely not to see that
video it made me sick physically ill. but yet there are people who are unable to see what happened for what it was including the all white jury that exonerated the police officers. what do you see when you see me? because what fascinates me it is almost impossible to hold police accountable for the things that they do on a daily basis and it should not be. we should respect them they are there to uphold the of law but not to be held above the law which is what they think we do is in our fear with african-american men we see something frightening or what scares us or what
threatens us and so we are willing to turn our heads and effort our eyes to forgo our obligation as a witness for that to be allowed. the final question what to police he? the question that needs to come out of that what do african-americans see when they see police? you looked at police. [laughter] and are more likely atc someone who is there to protect and serve to guard your community and neighborhood but i don't have that luxury ago on a case by case basis i tried not to make a blanket
statement and i tried to allow for a good police but by the same token i would be a fool if i supported with the automatic assumption that they're there to help me to see me in the same way they would see you. and what should they see after this experience when we see a police? [applause] >> thank you for a very thought-provoking opening. robert, do you share some of those perspectives? maybe not those experiences to. >> i do not share his conclusions although in particular with the south carolina case that is the case said it is egregious police misconduct probably
a murder. there is no justification for that. i would distinguish that case which is a clear example of unacceptable homicidal police behavior if you watch the video and most of you have coming he was stopped for a traffic light light, the tail light was out to. he was obviously fleeing the scene and was not menacing and was a routine stop and the officer shot him in the back eight times as he fled. obviously this is a case of the officer gunning down and probably bring someone using disproportionate violence. i don't disagree with my eloquent speaker that this
happens. but this is where we do disagree. do we live in a police state? is it a systemic problem? that is where we do disagree. my main field is international politics and american foreign policy. and i think i was put on this panel for an amusement to see how i'd do. [laughter] but compared to a real police state, nazi germany, soviet union, tehran, north korea, the united states and its worst days is not a police state. second, we're not perfect and no political entity is. if you compare the state of law enforcement toward all americans including
african-americans if you compare the standards of today compared to 40 years ago we have made significant improvement if not perfect improvement with the way we deal with the propriety. third, my first cousin is a policeman in cambridge massachusetts and was policeman of the year in 2012 and was part of a team that apprehended the brother who perpetrated the atrocities during the boston marathon and my daughter is a student at boston university. the upper conference of policeman and the preponderance of cities are decent and honorable to enforce the of lot and follow it and are not rogue.
i also disagree it is a problem that is getting worse, of the that is systemically and endemic and they think it is very important to make reasonable distinctions by and large they think this is a problem and i did agree with my first speaker even though i disagree on the general point but in a state like ours authority should always be under scrutiny to justify the use of force or state intervention in general. nevertheless where i disagree with my eloquent first speaker is the issues that this is systemic it has not significantly improved over time. it has and i also think that
in treating this problem we have the disservice to the country to lung things together and in response to my first speaker what should an african-american see when they see a policeman the agency an institution for the most part that has significantly improved. he or she should also see an institution that benefits african-americans and all-american insignificant they. the greatest victims in urban areas over the past 40 years have been african-americans. the greatest beneficiary of law-and-order by to process are those african-americans who want to send their children to school or run businesses.
i am not saying there are bad policeman. is in any profession just like the military. what critics see as the systemic problem i see as for individual and specific more of an exception to the rule while most people the gave most of the time. thank you. [applause] >> faq robert. now i will turn it over to richard. will you comment if we have a police state? >> first-ever want to say --
that doesn't mean sharon tate was not mistreated but the large majority of american policeman are doing their jobs. but that minority of rotten apples is big enough to be of concern. changes in attitudes are evident. i a work as a reporter 30 years in philadelphia i am an expert in bad cops we're the space bad cops. nationwide i saw little towns in north dakota have tanks to dress up their policeman in s.w.a.t. teams if you really think north dakota has a requirement to have a s.w.a.t. team in policeman armed with automatic weapons wearing
helmets then you may be as crazy as the people who asked for the tanks in the first place. it is purely anecdotal on my part but i detect ted different attitude. i am an old man. i am a good citizen i was stopped by a police van in grand fork north dakota who then proceeded to spend half an hour with back up the reading the about god knows what to tell me he had the perfect right to have the real test for a driver's license because i was so old. i agreed to do it and please stop yelling at me then at the end issued at ticket a catchall ordinance that every town has of aggravated
sadness and let me go. now i am left with not quite the same attitude as black america dunes would have because i don't have that much justification but i am weary. recently we have gotten that way and if a policeman in this culture, i believe in unions and police unions are much more powerful than any union i have been on. calvin coolidge june 1919 when the boston police went on strike he and the of mayor went the technical term is called bat shit play
it for political reasons to do the traffic controller thank there were not allowed to come back but the results is almost every city with unionized cops there is arbitration procedure they cannot strike but they can win every argument the arbitrators are hired by both sides and the city. it is really hard to get fired in the arbitration and accused of serious crimes and to be fired in philadelphia of 90 percent got their jobs back through arbitration. arbitrators will split the difference. there at the mercy of the police union. like the great depression is of legacy from calvin. he fixed so many things in our lives.
friends of mine did a pulitzer prize-winning series called the team to justice which has become of book in direct command that. they went through hispanic north philadelphia where abusive narcotics cops had rated bottega and essentially would rob them because they had plastic bags. plastic bags can be used to hold drugs it also holds leftovers. there is film of a policemen climbing on the counter to cut the cord to the surveillance cameras and he could rob the cash register. luckily for justice to cut the wrong chord.
they were accused credibly by women who were molested by one of them. the story ran four weeks it was done with the cooperation of the commissioner of police who i think is a good guy. nobody at the top of an organization has absolute control. that is definitely true with the philadelphia police department. there are cases of horrifying violence coming and cases of dishonesty. >> guest: into an armed robber to be a policeman? there is the difference to be convicted of a felony and being fired. if all of us worked in
actual jobs where you can be fired without committing a felony. [laughter] it almost goes without saying but in most areas if you do something horrible horrible, and you say to one arbitrator or a jury i was in fear for my life those are magic words it is sure get out of jail free cards. either we get rid of the magic words excusing appalling behavior or higher braver policeman. when they talk out is more dangerous to be a farmer. come on. the horrible thing about a policeman is so boring generally. i have great admiration i was a police reporter the first two years of my career i left because the group
think was beginning to hurt my head and i was starting to think like a policeman and i didn't want to be. and a lot of instances you get in attitude the things that were coming out then passed around in ferguson that is attitudinal within the department. that is the easy to fix but that his dedication over years i have seen six different police commissioners try to fix the philadelphia police department title think they have succeeded yet. and incident in which junker at city hall i saw a purse snatching take place. 23 years old and stupid guy tackled him down and held him down. the policeman started to
wail the crackpot of the man with his nightstick. i said you have to do that? he said do you want some? the attitude that people especially black people are the enemy is the key to all of this. they are not officer friendly when this happens officer friendly shows of station around the station house to let you know how he protection you but these guys we are worried about admitted the a minority? so what. if all policemen were like that we could not even have this little gathering. they are not all like that could be enough of our to make you desperately concerned about where this country is going because it is going toward in that
direction. if you don't worry about that, a good for you because did you are living a very happy life. thank you very much. [applause] steve mcclure you like to add your perspective if we are moving to a police state? the american one whereby do touchback to web robert mitchum in there is the question is whether ways see what is going on as systemic or individual. liberals see both as systemic and conservatives tend to see them as more individual. when the deal with these incidents in a the
militarization of the police force there is something much broader going on. of the incidents over the last two years trayvon margarine or mr. scott the the question is what kind of biased and our way of walking around with? not the kkk member or confederate flag waving but it makes us more apprehensive from people who are unlike our solace. sometimes it is boring but my brother is the cockpit opinion before inning and terrifying in end depressing walking into violent situation is always looking of violence done to other people and it is a hard job
per client they have the imperfect by a set day walk around with and science is beginning to understand that offers us some hope. basically they think some of the instincts that we have set our prehistoric to figure out what is dangerous are what is different or what might cause any problems something helpful when you're running around on the savannah a lion is bag you cannot apply that same generalization to the types of people. wed redo was when we get into trouble and we can actually measure this. i encourage you to take the test because it will be quite depressing but it is
worth there. one is called the imperfect biased tests and other is a weapon is identification and both of these your grass too quickly categorize between bourbon white than black faces even between terms that are good or bad what you will tend to find that is true for people of color but you will more quickly associate could qualities with white faces. . .
it is really understanding how to train around it were possible how to put police procedures in a different way. las vegas, they had excessive use of force cases particularly when officers were chasing suspects are neighborhoods are generally minority neighborhoods. they basically they basically said, your not allowed to touch a suspect you apprehend unless absolutely necessary. that was procedure. cases of excessive violence one way down. there is a way that we can measure and quantify what we're doing and train ourselves out of the. interestingly i would say that that also does not just apply from police forces.
similar experiments have been run where people are forced to think about people other than themselves before taking different kinds. essentially essentially what it finds is not only are you more likely to be open to personal color but you are also more likely to score better on tests that measure entrepreneurial creativity. opening your mind to different kinds of people and different kinds of experience can unlock entrepreneurial skills as well. yet another reason for the tech companies and others to do better in hiring. that is one sort of systemic thing that we need to get on top of. it is not just the police but that the police have these biases and are armed and put in more dangerous situations or at least what
they apprehend to be. the 2nd thing i would like to talk about is the actual militarization of our police forces. ever since september 11 we have seen an enormous amount of military gear being handed out, loaned out out, loaned out and provided that a great discount to police forces 1st in new york city and places where there is arguably a real risk of terrorism but also little towns. given a way to buy things. it used to be that little towns to not have their own s.w.a.t. team but now only 20 percent of them did just a few years ago. by 2780 percent of them had a full on militarized s.w.a.t. team.
mostly being used to serve warrants. and some of these are drug warrants. a lot of this is war on drug stuff. a lot of it is for bench warrants. crazy. you go into someone's house with a s.w.a.t. team. someone upstairs want to the right apartment. they they went in with a s.w.a.t. team and reality television group through flash bangs and killed girl. this is going on all the time because we're responding to things that don't require this use of force. that is the training they get rather than helping them be more open to the people that they are encountering.
disqualification also teaches the police that everything is a threat. you think you're in battle. it's just basic psychology. i do think that those two issues the biases we all walk around with in the militarization of our police force have come together in an unfortunate way. we saw that. is it's something that we need to watch out for more broadly. [applause] >> thank you. >> my 1st question, do you have questions for each other? >> yeah. let me preface this. a small store.
a man named earl sampson who had never been convicted of anything more serious than possession of marijuana which i understand in some states is not even a crime. i have heard that. been arrested dozens of time for trespassing and he works the store. been pulled from behind the counter. we keep hearing we often here about road policeman not a systemic problem. my problem -- my question is after oscar grant after garner after abner louima, after our diablo from africa slowly after lavar jones sean bell, walter scott
rodney king and all these other men i don't have time to name them how many isolated incidents to we have to have before we can see there is a pattern? that is my 1st question. my 2nd just the idea of decent, honorable cops. i have no argument with the idea that most police officers are honorable men and women trying to do a difficult job. i said that explicitly of john gruber. but is it too much to ask that you stand up against those other cops who are making these -- [applause] who are doing these things as opposed to retreating behind the blue wall of silence. >> are you addressing that
to robert? >> my learning colleagues. >> my learned colleague. do you see a pattern? >> you have me in mind for this? let me recover my bearings. it is moving but not always enlightening to use anecdotal data and these cases are serious. but this does not disprove the counterargument as to whether this is a systemic problem. i we will tell you james q wilson hands down the greatest criminologist of the past two years has argued in a massive body of scholarship to the contrary. again, i think it is perfectly legitimate and reasonable to punish people for behaving as rogue cops. where i disagree is whether
it is a systemic problem. as for a couple of other points the militarization of police that is an assertion that is made in isolation. but you also have to know is that the police now are up against drug gangs and other threats vastly better armed and they are. so what my colleague calls the militarization some of us would consider unnecessary and prudent response to the broadening and deepening threat that law enforcement faces not just in cities but in towns and small places where threats that you would have thought could not emanate now emanate powerfully. the glass half-empty or half-full argument. if you want to be anecdotal
i we will. i lived in new york before giuliani. my 4 degrees at columbia after command i we will tell you that before giuliani when there was insufficient law enforcement life was thomas hobbes nasty solitary, brutish, and often short. overall on balance and they should be held accountable and there should be panels like this command the police should always have to answer the question are you responding disproportionally? despite that things have gotten vastly better. treating this is a systemic problem is going to make matters worse. i'm going to have to leave here in a a moment to play the same role on the uranian panel to cement my claim to the witness protection program.
i will respond to you. in in the ferguson case, the law enforcement officer acted in legitimate self-defense and the jury was absolutely right to exonerate her meaning that the market needs to make reasonable distinctions. >> am sorry. >> go ahead. >> okay. one quick question. the gentleman says that we rely too much on anecdotal evidence. here is some statistical evidence. about evidence. about 15 percent of african-american -- 50 percent of the regulars in this country and 50% of drug crime in this country is african-american. the vast amount is white. we have a system where the statistics show that even when you correct for class and other variables somehow
we ended up with jurisdictions where 60, 70 80, and in some places 90 percent of the people doing time for drug crime is african-american. if that if that is not a systemic problem, i don't know what is. >> it is not necessarily -- >> well, that is a great song. a necessarily so. i love that song. i have -- there are two great columnists in this country. i am sitting next to one. the other one rides block for esquire magazine. charlie pierce writes, no video, no crime. that is the simple truth of it, all you know and i'll you need to know. no video and he drops his taser and probably gets away with what he did. no video and he goes down as
another of the many semi- homelands that are occupational hazards to our brave men in blue. no video and is doing three nights a week by next monday no video and he he is half a hero while scott remains to. in order for us to five. >> i'm going to interrupt you. i did want to follow roberts trot. to have her answer the question is of the systemic. >> can i make my.other than just having the quote. >> sure. >> we have a new standard. for anything bad to have happened there has to be a felony conviction supported by video and that is not exactly a standard i can get behind. >> that's a good a good., and i want to get back to video, to.
>> the crime rate in new york city and almost every major metropolitan area in almost every medium-sized city in almost every small town in almost every category of crime has been falling steadily since 1980. the police do not face more crime. there are drug cartels. i happen to know a lot about that. but those cartels are not the individuals cooking at math in their basement that the drug warrants are served on. you know going after cartels with the s.w.a.t. team maybe that is acceptable. we are taking a militarized response to serving for bench warrants for failure to appear for a a custody dispute or failure to appear for a traffic stop. it is absurd the level of firepower that we are bringing to situations where there is no reason to think
that anything -- that they will encounter force of any kind. accidents happen and accidents happen when a guy's fully locked and loaded enter a room with the presumption of threat. the 2nd issue although the data is frankly not great and there is a lot of constituent reason why the fbi and police forces do not willingly collect and hand over the data about who shot and killed and when and how. we scraped what data there was out there. what data there is shows pretty definitively that in cases from new york and federal law enforcement cases that in -- measured against every kind of incident : measured is the kind of arrest blacks are more likely to be arrested and shot. and these are not just arrests for violent crime but arrests for no good reason and sometimes petty crime.
we do need more data. to say the data that is out there does not support that this is going on is a fallacy. [applause] >> i i want to come back to what you were talking about because you bring up this issue of video which can be important as we go forward. do you think that the video will make a big difference in the anti- police state? >> i don't know. videos can be confusing. i no that in the incident much less serious incident involving my own self i mentioned i found the charge is the chief said why don't you, so i did. it turned out here not turned his camera on. well that's a half an hour of them screaming. i never saw the man's face
by the way. the the initial result of the inquiry was that he was exonerated because he violated know the rules. so i don't no whether video is a cure-all because there are so many ways around it. we are better with a them without a but i don't think we can install video. the poor cops today are carrying my 400 pounds of stuff, guns and teasers. tasers were supposed to be a nonviolent response and now they are torture device. there are carrying a lot of stuff already. it's a good thing, but i don't know whether we should be content because we have the wearing video. >> i agree. >> we had to a some. >> and i feel badly about it that we do agree that we agree on the issue of
videos. for the sake of law enforcement because in this climate if legitimate law enforcement is second-guessing every decision and people like here are treating law enforcement's legitimate actions with the presumption of illegitimacy overall it is not a panacea. it benefits police and the public alike to have a video so that the vast preponderance of policeman who do their jobs directly connect with confidence because they act in a split 2nd world where the state can be life-and-death. overall based on this collected experience even from my side of the spectrum the evidences fairly strong in the direction that putting the videos on policeman would be the most prudent response and is something that the police should want i think, to
vindicate them and i think it would the most policeman most of the time do their jobs in a way that is proper in his system with the american constitution. [applause] >> i would only add that i i think it is grossly unfair to assume anyone on this panel has gone and with the presumption of uniform guilt against our police officers. [applause] >> any questions each of you have for each other. >> please come to the microphone. take student questions 1st make them short and to the. will take questions until 1020. lights up in the audience a little bit.
>> i wanted to go down from the police state to the smaller part. the pestering the pestering police to the african-american community for the minor things the friend of my daughters during high school ago stopped constantly african-american who get who gets stopped constantly for driving his father's bmw. the instances where young teenage african-american kids are treated differently in their pranks, knocking pranks, knocking down of mailboxes in the things that young kids do, and they tend to get a police record and a lot of the white kids tended to go to the juvenile
conference committee. the little things that have. and they say that the person has a record. because because of all those little ones that added up for can you comment on those? it seems like those little things rather than the big things add up. >> is there someone you want to direct that question to? if you could, think about someone you would like to directed to. >> it does not matter. if someone has a comment i appreciate it. >> i agree. i think the most compelling part of the ferguson report that i found problematic in many ways but one of the most compelling parts of the report is the i think the data was robust african-americans were disproportionately and aggressively targeted for traffic violations and other things that aggregate me created a record and were steppingstones to other things.
i think that has happened in a lot of places. again, i think we will disagree. we have a long way to go, but in my native city of boston to use example, this has improved significantly but still is a problem from the 1980s on the boston celtics sky and the guard for the celtics driving into his wellesley home in his mercedes was taken to the side by the police because he was not presumed to be of the type to be in the neighborhood. i do think that is a serious issue although i also think coming from california the police departments generally are abusing their authority to raise revenue and all sorts of ways and i do think it is a fair criticism
that the african-american community has borne and even significantly greater degree of that abuse than other communities. so i think that concern is a national and legitimate concern and something that may be more systemic than the higher level that we talked about earlier. [applause] >> i think i think it is easy to say that things have improved and is certainly probably appealing to us on an emotional level. i would like to see some statistics that prove this improvement. i would like to see some illustration of that. in terms of the sort of pestering, as you put it you are exactly right. the thing about ferguson, in my particular favorite part was the man who got arrested
for giving his name is mike when his former name is michael. the fallacy to treat ferguson as if it is somehow this mutant town that is like no other bigger small-town america. and for those who are tempted to treat ferguson as an outlier i would ask one question, if ferguson is so different from any other towns what is it that made it different? out of ferguson become what it is and how did boulder or la or boston or whoever manage to remain above that? would be curious to know. >> next question over here to the right. >> this question is directed toward bob. i am a graduate student in engineering pursuing a phd. >> speak into the microphone >> my question to you bob frank serpa go or rudy giuliani, who did more to make new york city safe?
>> we giuliani was the greatest 20th century mayor in the united states. although there were many things that improve new york he applied james q wilson is broken window theory to the squeegee medical the bridges in the subways. rudy giuliani's enforcement of law benefit life, liberty, and prosperity more than any single social policy in the 20th century in any major city and he is a hero for it. it it is largely due not only to giuliani but the high quality of the new york city police department and the das office that are the protector rather than ministers of liberty. >> rudy giuliani part bernard character to run police. but our police. but our character is a criminal who did time in federal prison. rudy giuliani the best line
ever from joe biden every rudy giuliani sentence has a subject, verb, and 911. [laughter] rudy giuliani is if you look at what he is saying currently command is nuts. we already mentioned that crime all over this country has declined in places with or without. i respectfully disagree. >> i disagree, too. >> let's not forget. [inaudible conversations] >> where are the microphones? keep them on. >> let's not forget two of the worst police misconduct cases occurred under giuliani's watch.
forty-one shots on one hand being anally raped by a broken broomstick and the other. the nypd has had a lot of problems over the years and a lot of great officers, but it was hardly a beacon of understanding. [applause] >> thank you for your interesting question. i i am sure will have read giuliani here next year. over here. students, come forward of the mike's. >> hi. thanks to everyone on the panel. panel. i think i had a bit of a difference of you for mr. kaufman as far as whether or not the united states can actually be said to have a police state. i'm wondering perhaps it because you work on an international level primarily your understanding of how that can apply to the us might not be nuanced in terms of we don't have to
have all people subjugated under a police state or perhaps one group of people to be experiencing something completely different than the majority of the country. so when you said that i was left wondering if mr. pitts might have a different view that perhaps. the community was in a different united states than you do. and and that being a very legitimate way to approach this panel might make us go back to -- and i guess i will reveal myself as a liberal the fact that i think this is a systemic problem. i am wondering if we are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy and a direct this to mr. pitts. you mentioned how many more
proportionally black people are arrested for crimes the statistically they are not involved in as much. we are filling our prison system with african-americans. we are to my beliefs, creating. [inaudible conversations] >> and your question is. >> my question is do you think that this is something that is a self-fulfilling -- where do you think it goes back to? obviously you don't think is the attitude of people. >> your question. >> i like to get to this underlying issues. >> first of all, mr. kaufman has to go, but as to his credentials, his misunderstanding i have a lot of grief in georgetown as well. i had sam _-dash for criminal law. can feinberg. i understand the issue. i don't agree with you, but you, but i have also study the waffen ss in the kgb.
so i understand the difference between the police state in the situation in the united states. states. our disagreement is not based on a misunderstanding on my not being enlightened with the information. it's based on a different view of the information and a different a different degree of sources as to where i get my information. on that note, i have to to play the same role on the iran panel. i i have enjoyed. thank you for your forbearance. [applause] >> i'm sorry, briefly, sorry, briefly, what was the part of the question for me? a partial police state, i think the fallacy my learned now the party colleagues understanding we are acting as if the only way that we can have a
police state is if we are having some re- creation of the nazis or some re- creation of other infamous dictatorship. i think that the architecture, certainly not -- if i i had to live anywhere how would live here obviously. is certainly not as bad here as it is in other places places, but the architecture of a police state is very seriously being put into place. if you go to arizona your required to show your papers if you are hispanic your required to show your papers upon any encounter with police to prove you have a right to be here. that to me is chillingly reminiscent of some things that we have seen from history. in terms of the african-american experience if you look at ferguson, the protester ferguson, the protester ferguson, the police with the spacesuits
and high-powered rifles, if you saw them eject white reporters from a mcdonald's with a were customers and eject him and arrested for trespassing then you have to be concerned about the prospect of police out of control and police with no oversight. there are repeated stories out of ferguson of journalists being mishandled, tear gassed, arrested, having the camera is pointed toward the street to the could not recall what is going on. this in a black thing but something we should all be concerned about. >> it is spreading because i no that it used to be if her crime was committed you just went to police headquarters and they give you the basics of the. nowadays you have jurisdictions in which the police will tell you squat except something happened.
i no -- i have not done an academic study. my own credentials are that i was a police reporter for a while while, journalist for a long time, and went to a state university. i do look about me and see a lot more. there was a gunfight in the parking lot of a hospital in grand forks involving three police agencies, border patrol university police, and local police. so far we have no idea what happened and it has been a month. >> our next question, and these question, and these are questions. please limit it to one or two sentences. >> i we will do my best. i i graduated high school in houston, texas in the early 70s with the police perfected the program. i'm getting to it. please.
perfect of the program gun. it has been a systemic problem for a long time. what role, panelists, do you think the questioning of a lawful police order plays in the escalation by police in these incidences that often lead to death particularly for minorities? >> i i don't know. i no you can provoke a fight if you want to. you know, all these things are vague. that is one of the reasons why say it would probably be a good idea to have video. it is kind of vague. how how lawful was the order? what was the order? if it is a polite -- you know, when i was a kid as you might figure, i was a white kid. who be hanging be hanging on the corner and the comp come along and say why don't you guys move to.
no one got arrested last continued questioning pat downs. one of the most horrifying pictures i ever saw was a couple of black kids being patted down by christine todd whitman, the governor of new jersey and then gone out with the state police for kicks. this has embedded itself in our culture and i think it is very much worth worrying about. >> here is the thing. the ferguson demonstrations there was a police officer officer who wrote an essay for the "washington post". his central argument was don't question me. i think the headline was actually, actually, if you don't want to get hurt don't question the. even if you are in the right the thing that raised to me and command i leave it to you, we have constitutional rights, and a law professor is not here but i we will
leave if i am not suspected of or cut the commission of a crime i don't have to tell you i am. assuming that is the case if i can't assert that right, if you are still allowed to do what you want is that right really any good? if i can't assert that right in the moment do i have it all back. >> am going to assume i have three students in the line. let's go through your questions quickly. thank you for your responses. >> this question is aimed mainly at mr. argued. earlier you mentioned that most police can get their jobs back through arbitration after they have committed a crime. i was wondering, because we have so much evidence of police abusing their question to abusing her powers how can
we take power away from police unions so that we can actually prosecute them and get them fired? >> governments that are less afraid of them for the reason that the benefits are so good is that mayors tend to kick it down the road. they don't want to take on police unions. i am now public employee. i work for the state of new jersey. why why is it that the governor can get all excited about my pension, which will pension, which oliver collectors of all work long enough get all agitated about my pension but not attitude about police pensions which are twice as generate and offered an earlier time. what is required is for government to actually take a look at what is happening under the names. i i don't see a whole lot that you were i can do other than influence or governments to take a good
look at what is happening in our name. >> this is directed toward anyone. do you think it should be difficult to become a police officer? make sure you are mentally fit? you can become a police officer without actually graduating high school. you can get a ged and become a police officer. make sure we have braver police officers who don't shoot people running away from the. >> i think that much more training not only upon becoming a police officer but throughout their career is a necessity for the same reason that we want to send doctors and nurses to learn the latest techniques. police officers should be brought up to speed on everything from technique to this research i was talking about earlier to raise
their own consciousness. the most egregious case of a lack of screening is in it to me a race shooting where he had been kicked out of a police force of the smaller jurisdictions and for whatever reason partly due to privacy law, legal apparatus not just with the unions the strata privacy laws that they did not have any idea of the previous police force he worked for thought he that he was horribly unsuited and not just unsuited but unstable and you saw he just jumped out of the current shot that kid. not two seconds of play, no assessment of what was going on. you know somebody like that just should not be carrying a gun the shield. [applause] >> in the context -- a good question of what you were touching on early on.
what does a policeman see command could you change it how could you train to have a policeman? >> i can't improve upon the answer that was just given. i don't know that it is to be more difficult. the hurdles they have to jump over there needs to be some sort of training i think we get into trouble. we think that bias looks like some guy with a clan heard in the back of his closet. bias looks like everyone of us in this room, myself included. we need we need training that alerts us to what is going on. >> next question. >> anyone who wants to take it. the increasing use of
surveillance systems. >> i was born in camden new jersey. an integrated poor neighborhood where everyone had jobs. all we are talking about is the interface between the government and the people purportedly law enforcement. even the georgetown law graduate might consider that to be an intrusion on rights but i think we are talking about to get policeman to
like a reality during our last question i was riding through your work i got i got lost. i got lost in a really what you would call a really poor neighborhood. what i stopped asking for directions he was terrified. working on his car. is not a danger to you or anybody else. else. just a guy working on his car. to see the dynamics of communities. >> thank you. next question. is there a student in line?
>> yes, please. >> an isolated incident of terrorism and if there was such a strong reaction to it why should these isolated incidents not have the same or at least similar reaction >> i have no idea. i think again my.is -- and i we will repeat what i said before there seems to be a scarcity of good statistics except that we do know african-americans are more likely to be shot and arrested in the 1st place we don't know the gross numbers on that. i just have real impatience with this idea that we keep stringing together all of these isolated incidents. when you have ten or 20 isolated incidents it seems to me you have a pattern. that just seems like logic to me.
[applause] >> some measure a better security and better intelligence and better preparation all that was warranted. the problem is when it's bills down and every nook and cranny and we use the tools that are designed to combat terrorism against a bunch of kids were selling loses or whatever, doing nothing. that is the problem. i i think both are patterns. the intersection of those patterns has been a particular problem. >> okay. next question. let's see if we can get through all of these as quickly as possible. how do i explain to my children when they see ferguson? the african-american community feels that it was in just but that same
community goes out and it's there own community? how i explained that? >> first of all you tell them it was not the entire community. explain to them that sometimes when people are emotionally wrought some of them do dumb things, as and when they are sports teams, win championships. [applause] you know, when the sports teams win championships we don't take a few idiots who overturned cars and break windows as being indicative of the entirety of the fan base. i i think the same standard applies and ferguson. a few idiots or opportunists, frankly, you opportunists, frankly, who probably didn't give a damn one way or the other. there will always be idiots and opportunists among us but that does not and should not invalidate the real
feelings of the people after demonstrating lawfully and peacefully. >> with that -- and i appreciate your. we are jewish and things happen to jewish people. different minorities. >> to jewish people loop probably when the ball teams when i would assume. i'm sorry. i received a tweet from somebody. why is it only black people. i sent people. i sent them a series of white kids riding. the response was, these are all ball teams. white kids living for all kinds of reasons. this idea that only african-americans engage in civic disorder is a historic fallacy. >> i have a question. two questions. >> one question. >> michelle alexander wrote the book that goes back to the reagan era and the war
on drugs and the militarization of the police through that program but also the targeting of the black committee. i'm just wondering, if you see because that was nationwide and governmental from a way of reversing that >> your question is. >> a way of reversing that. >> second question -- >> sorry. thank you. >> i think michelle alexander wrote one of the most critical and urgent books and needed books that i have ever read. the way to reverse it there is a movement coalescing. you have seen some of this with eric holder of the attorney general rolling back some of the architecture of war. the needs to be public pressure on eric holder, whatever his successor will be to continue this.
they have not call the roll back of the war on drugs which is probably intelligent of them politically but it is amounting to that command we need to make sure whoever succeeds in recordable barack obama continues to do that. >> i was i was thinking, the reason why reconstruction after the civil war didn't work was horrifying violence inflicted by white people all over the south especially in louisiana. let's think about that. >> the last two questions in the last two minutes quickly over year. >> a question directed to any panelists from i am curious if you want to comment on any correlation or perceived correlation between the rise of police brutality and violence and the connections of veterans returning from iraq and afghanistan and assuming positions as police officers >> i i don't know that there is a correlation. i don't know -- veterans
have been returning for the last 91012 years. this problem brutality i don't know -- again, we don't know the statistics. i no statistics. i no that we're seeing more of it on the news. as far as whether it is better or worse i don't know that we can say. >> an interesting question. last question. >> i live in st. louis. during the protest a number of the police officers, black police officers were singled out for special abuse as essentially traitors to their race. also, the post-dispatch had an article that a number of people in the apartment complex testified to the grand jury in support of the police officer story but were afraid to come out publicly because of retributions from the our community. what what does that say
about the relationship with the police? >> nothing as far as i'm concerned. you always get these loose ends in all these kinds of stories. i would not want to be a black policeman in a racially tense situation because you don't even know whether you can trust your brother officers. this situation is more complicated. as minutes keynote it is more complicated than simple black-and-white. race is a construct and we do with it will be feel like doing with the. i think it is consequential the pressure is put on people for racial reasons. reasons. do you think that only happens with black people? the pressure on policeman to support a brother officer who has just shot somebody are not quite right to shoot think about that. >> thanks. a good wrapup.
join me in thanking these wonderful panelists. >> and now there asking me to ask you to vacate as quickly as you can. thank can. thank you for being a great attentive audience. [applause] also -- >> key public policy events in every weekend book tv offer 15 years the 15 years the only television network devoted to nonfiction books and authors. teewun created by c-span2 created by the cable tv industry and brought to you as a public service. watch us in hd like us on facebook and follow us on twitter.
>> florida senator marco rubio announced he is running for president. the republican lawmaker made the announcement at an event in miami. the 4th candidate to formally enter the presidential race joining fellow senators ted cruz and rand paul and former secretary of state hillary clinton who wants to campaign yesterday with a video posted online. you can see the announcement on our website at teethree. c-span.org. and tomorrow, a road to the white house coverage continues. the 1st stop in what is expected to be a multi- day virtue. tomorrow's event we will be a roundtable discussion. live at 1:15 p.m. eastern here on c-span2. >> the bipartisan policy center heard today from former homeland security secretary about ways to
better measure border security and immigration enforcement. the 2nd person to have had -- headed dhs after its formation in 2,002. his remarks were followed by a discussion that included us border patrol feet -- border patrol chief michael fisher. this this is an hour and a half. half. >> good morning, everyone. [inaudible conversations] >> thank you very much for coming out to the bipartisan policy center and thank you for joining us today for this discussion of border security metrics and immigration enforcement. we have a very great lineup of speakers. and i will introduce you to them in a minute. but first let me say i'm theresa cardinal bwn and am e i am
project here at bipartisan policy center. a little bit of background that those that don't know about bpc, it was founded in 2007 by four former senate majority leaders, howard baker, tom daschle, bob dole and george mitchell. this is the only think tank that is bipartisan, we pull together knowledgeable leaders of both parties to drive solutions to some of the country's most challenging problems. we do analysis. you have probably a copy of one of our recent reports that we'll be discussing today. negotiation among task forces and commissions that we put together and dialogue to develop bipartisan solutions that we think are the way forward on these issues. bpc has projects in multiple issue areas includes the immigration project. the immigration task force was formed in 2013 to work on bipartisan reforms and engage both parties to develop bipartisan legislation. the task force is co-chaired by
former governors haley barbour, ed rendell, and former secretaries condoleeza rice and henry cisneros and includes business leaders, farmers members of cabinet and cabinet members and like former secretary michael chertoff a couple words about the project today. immigration reform legislation has been debated in congress over past few years, particularly last summer which saw arrival of thousands unbe a companied children and families from central america. that caused challenges for the border agencies. one key area keeps coming back and that is the issue of securing our border. this is continuous mantra for many leaders and put forward by some as precondition to immigration reform it is very ill-defined concept and it is rather not well-understood. in fact when it comes to border security the lack of understanding and solid data tends to make a secure border something in the eye of the beholder. yet this isn't a really good way
to make policy so we at bpc engaged in a project to determine the best ways to measure the security of the border and effectiveness of immigration enforcement and results are in the report you have today. what we found briefly is that the history of developing measures is a long and varied. it has been inconsistent over time and has led to a lot of confusion and yet all of this study and work has produced both inside government and by outside researchers some widely accepted measures and estimates that we believe if taken together could provide a comprehensive, common understanding of the state of border security and we will be talking about that with our panelist as little bit later. so we've invited our guests today to talk about issue in greater detail starting with secretary chertoff, and a brief bio of the secretary. as the second secretary of homeland security from 2005 to 2009, secretary chertoff oversaw foundational period for the department which was still coming together after being formed in 2003.
during his tenure he undertook a major review of the department, second stage review and made significant changes including approach to border security, making several changes to the way the department dealt with third country nationals apprehended, reforming detention. he undertook a soup-to-nuts approach to the issue and engaged all components while at the same time working with congress on one of the earlier attempts at immigration reform. secretary chertoff is founder and head of the chertoff group where he advises corporate and government leaders mr. chertoff on a broad range of security issues including border security and key member of our immigration task force. so please welcome secretary chertoff. [applause] >> well, thank you for you all coming. it is a great turnout and i'm delighted to be part of this effort and i thinks as theresa explained, to talk a little bit about the issue of securing the border.
as theresa was talking i was reflecting on the fact that i've been involved with this issue for about 10 years. i started out shortly after i got sworn in 2005 as the secretary. wound up not only working operationally with folks from border patrol and customs and bored protection and i.c.e. but also with congress on an effort to get comprehensive immigration reform. i'm reminded of the fact that probably about a year after i was in office, i testified before the senate judiciary committee. maybe senator domenici was on the committee at that point and we talked a little bit about comprehensive immigration reform in terms of operational and security benefits because one of the things you learn when you look at the issue of the border is the flow in and out of the border is very much driven by forces that are demographic and economic. it is not simply a question of infrastructure and people although those are important. it is about the incentives and disincentives.
and, as i used to tell people, in some ways, the border flow reflects the purest example of a market-based system that you can imagine. it is very sensitive to even very small changes in operational activity and in the law. to give you an example, i remember, that when i came in, there was real particular challenge relating to individuals crossing between the ports of entry illegally who were bringing children with them. and sometimes they weren't even their own children. that was because at the time we didn't really have a detention facility for families. so therefore people who were apprehended, who were with kids, wound up getting by and large released, and of course those never showed up for their hearings. as soon as we built a facility that allowed you to maintain families in a discuss towed y'all setting before they were
deport, all of sudden that started to dry up. another example was, there was a period of time where there was a court case that required that for people from el salavador who were caught crossing the border, there had to be a special process in place, a more elaborate process to deport them. and what we discovered was, if you, again talked about apprehensions, most of the people being apprehended, a very significant proportion came without papers and claimed to be from el salavador. they knew they could take advantage of this process. and that is one of the things that again, overwell emed amount of detention beds we had and resulted people being released many who never showed up for hearings. as soon as we went to court and reversed that decision, and got it lifted, all of sudden number of people claiming to be from el salavador dropped precipitously. the word got around so quickly, literally in stays you could -- days you could see change in behavior.