tv The Longest War CSPAN April 19, 2015 6:30am-7:31am EDT
islamic scholars published an open letter to baghdad he and isis in which they said they gave 24 points at which isis was not following the principles of islam. i would observe i would observe that the ku klux klan claims that they are christian although they hate jews and blacks. i wonder if you could give me more than a one-word answer if i were i were to ask if there was a newspaper headline that says christians whence negro. would that be a fair headline? thank you much by. >> caller: not sure where your going to mobile you are attempting to say is we ought not to be quick to judge islam by the extremist actions of illness or front for a big daddy. i agree with that. president lcc was the leading university in cairo
the seat of islamic burning in the world give a lecture on january 1. you will be able to find where he instructed the scholars of islam that the problem wasn't islam. needed to be confronted reformed. they. that for me to say that. leading islamic scholars. it is a problem. a lot of people in isis. returned isis fighter. we have had that happen in london commend the united states, in france. we france. we have to be serious about the fact that there are a
lot, thousands, tens of thousands of radical islamists who are not representative real and present danger to the world. it doesn't do us any good to say 50 years ago there were lynchings in the united states have nothing to do with christianity. that doesn't advance the argument. but we do right now about terrorists who are right now killing in nigeria hundreds of people. last week 200 plus christians were murdered because of there faith and ecology kenya. that is a right now problem that most americans don't know happened. massacred two years ago. the problem is getting worse, not better commander does not help the world. i i judge you to be a left-wing or by virtue of your calls. for left-wingers to confuse the problem. it has nothing to do with american politics. will be arguing about
bathrooms for transsexuals. we have to get serious of a serious problems. >> host: one minute left. >> caller: stop the bombings, funding the cia and fbi, secret activities. tens of millions of dollars in unfunded, unknown money. hundreds of millions of dollars going to the cia. do you support either overt or covert assassinations? that's it. >> host: all right. you had half. you get the other half. >> guest: i disagree. i support drone strikes. i believe pres. obama has has constitutionally used his authority in that regard. >> host: kayfor, the
passage i read about the ideas that the symbol of the u.s. the statue of liberty is itself endangered and came very close to falling apart because of rust. >> so the statue of liberty -- the statue of liberty was designed by -- i guess was the engineer. the idea was to put an iron frame holding up some copper and a new sense the early days to metals and contact, one of them will corrode because of the of the. -- because of the other. they tried to separate the two metals with asbestos which was the best thing going back again. they sort of strictly specified don't paint this thing. if you can see what's happening you will know if you need to put in more asbestos the who knows, maybe someday you will end in
plastic, but they didn't know that. of course, the superintendents of leaders thought paint is good stuff. by the time the '80s rolled around, six layers of paint inside the statue of liberty hiding the interaction between these two metals. our comeback that to a second but when the superintendent finally discovered that there was a problem with the statue, there was someplace with paint was holding nothing anymore. it was just paint and where is the frame it is not there. five and just climbed up into the torch and took a picture themselves and they found a big puddle of bird poop quagmire christmas and abroad the photo i don't know who so that it developed a product a developed a product immediately passed it around and were advised to not do that again because the frame was not there anymore. >> cannot be up there at all. >> don't go to that part. don't go sit in the torch again
because it could just to break. that truly embarrassing if your but fell out of the torch. you broke the national symbol of freedom. something like 1800 pieces of the frame and wendy park service on the government restoring the statute placed every one of those ribs except i think they left one on the back right heel sticking up. >> hercules he'll. >> her heel sticking up and i think they left one of the original i have friends in their some historians could see what was made up at every other one was replaced with stimulus steel which was now going up choice determined by a very wise promotion consultant who advised how to do this it so they call them ribs but really it is a franc pieces. they never did more than one at a time from the four parts of her body. it took a long time to climb the
statute and it is part out. each one way to 50 pounds. to lower them and get into a fabricator so they could make them in and bring them back. it cost like $300 million to fix this giant metal thing sitting there in new york harbor in saltwater and bird poop and humidity and acid rain. into what it such a blanket to put a copper statue right there. one of the gems in the book is after the restoration the national cessation of corrosion engineers put a plaque dedicating it as a national corrosion restoration subject it's a bronze plaque and like all bronze plaques it's coded in something to protect it but i guess i chose the wrong coding and so the national, the only national corrosion plaque in the country begin to rust about a year later. bob winger ebony told other people, the other engineering
groups last their butts off going those guys can't even make a plaque. you feel bad. engineering is a lot of trial and error and i suspect that was a quick trial and error very well learned. >> the whole reason it was discovered it was because some activists, protesters attract essentially raw climbed the statue? >> that's one of my favorite stories. i might have pushed hard to get in the book but i think it's still worth it. so two climbers from san francisco came out the day before mother's day 1980 and they went they were going to climb the statue and sleep on her shoulder for six days. they brought back packs and suction cups and food and poetry. they're going to read poetry to each other. they only made it, they're protesting the imprisonment of a black panther who allegedly
killed a teacher in california. he didn't do it. he was released 25 years later and these guys they were hippie activist so they went up there and abroad is that they're going to trade but across the statue's chest like a brawl. i talk to them a lot about this. they went to the bathroom on liberty island and they stood up onon the toilet and upon harnesses the visitors wouldn't be like what's going on over there? they stack up and they climbed up the door for an answer to climate. they only made it to her knee because the statue is basically i don't want it i don't want it disintegrated but there holes all over and suction cups, he would get them on and they would slowly come off. these are good climbers. it was very terrifying.
>> if it had not been resting they would have made it up, do you think? >> i think so. >> you say something to the book like they heard a popping, epic i who was supposed to be keeping and not on the statue was watching with his binoculars and he heard a popping and thought they were hammering nails or something? >> this was neat because i do make a lot of phone calls and swear all the permission of us getting together. these guys did not take hammers. it's not a climbing work. it's not the suction cups either but they were using suction cups, they tried bringing universal as folks, they brought those about to put them in holes but they didn't. get it didn't work told away. the statue of these holes in it because the records were getting pulled out because the copper was separated from the iron frame. the parks service was so mad at
these climbers desecrating the symbol of freedom that one of them employers would've inside the statue and took the butt of his gun and basically went like started rapping on the frame of the statue. someone else down below said they are destroying the statute. this became a convenient way they are bad guys doing bad things. when they searched their bags they done nothing, suction cups food and a book of poetry. but the superintendent of the park got out by doctors and look at the statute and that's kind of what i see is the first thing people look at it and said it's not in good shape. another gem in the book is these guys, first they were told in court and their lawyer was probably the most infamous lawyer in the country at the time and his judge said oh god not you. i'm a big fan of the guy. and then he had the case thrown
somewhere else. what a turn at these guys have not damaged the statue to the tune of $80000 -- >> but had, in fact, revealed that it was damaged and needed to be repaired instantly. >> that banner had with them was liberty is framed. they put in a big band. they declared to the country well, there was a problem. it turned out to be a different problem. they were sentenced within 24 hours of community service. being a hippie climbers before they were back to california and talk a bunch of city kids how to climb. that's some good community service. >> that's fitting. speaking of the metaphors that she revealed and the rest can reveal thinking about the way that the u.s. is spending money and/or decision on the cover to
have kind of a bloody, you know besmirched white page and joseph dunford is the longest war. for me and correct me if this is not necessarily something you were thinking, after reading the book and think about the amount of money the u.s. is spending on military, and fighting wars overseas, and the lack of spending that's done here on infrastructure, the amount of corrosion that's happening on american soil, but that at the same time the amount of money that is going to fighting rust on an american military vessels. do you have a statistic the u.s. navy spending more on rust than it is to kind of fight the wars? >> i don't know if i'd quite go
that far. but it is definitely the number one enemy. >> they spend billions of dollars on rust. >> and the defense department is hosting its $20 billion a year fighting rust. that's also when my favorite chapters because you see the way the dod tree trust us when we all do. it's uncomfortable, awkward we would rather not talk about. it's not interesting or sexy. geisler making $100 million missile programs rust, i don't wantit, you deal with that, not me. then you get a really stubborn corrosion. there's a guy in the pentagon who is a corrosion ambassador and his job is to change the way the pentagon deals with rust. he comes in and he says you might think the widget is important but we can't just endlessly spend tax dollars making things that fall apart in 10 years. that's not a way that is in a way not good bureaucracy. is a better way to --
>> i'm glad someone is saying that. >> it's tempting to think the highest rank rusts official in the country should be an engineer but he is not an engineer. he studied public administration. he's very funny very loud definitely quirky and personable. and persistent but he is not an engineer. so when he started his job on the guys laughed them out of the room. he can do his job, he's not a chemist, he's not a metallurgist. if we do so much about physics. he doesn't care. >> but he's getting a lot done. >> the general accountability office has asked that you saved our, billions of our tax dollars. i don't go so far, i mean it's about in a way about death and the finish within sank i am alive, which is, i don't know if a typical of the guys in the book fighting rust. i think they deserve to shout a
little bit when they win. and he is winning. >> i want to make sure we have some time for questions so what to open it up now in case anyone does. but we can also keep talking. any questions for jonathan? [inaudible] >> exposes the cost what's happening underneath this world that most people travel and consume and we like to have -- so it shows this hidden cost in this war that is going on the keeps all the stuff on the surface in a way. itself is externalized cost to the fact that we need now we want a little bit of pomegranate soda here now and we needed as well as oil. i guess i'm just went about the scales and i think about this for the bigger lesson. is a way to imagine a world in which we don't have to fight
this war? what would that mean? how different would our society have to be asked how would we have to organize our lives? >> everybody wants to know that. what can we do to once and for all solve it spent i'm sure there is no solution but in some with someone like if you have i'm partly wondered have utopian one would have to be to imagine that. >> i think you want to go live in a desert and use rocks as tools, you will not have rust problems. and had this great thing in here, in the book i mentioned a rust free world, it's not possible and in a way i call it the longest war because the light to think we live in the information age but we are very much in result of iron age. i like to think some day when extraterrestrials, billions from yourself and the earth and they go looking for signs signs that we
want states to get inmates to fear, you find the statue of liberty but you find the granite pedestal, which was and they will be like did they try to damn the hudson? they will find egypt and stuff increase but you won't find things that are made out of metal. you will find stone. >> so it's basically an endless war is what you're suggesting. >> the war will last as long as human beings sort of have the structure. >> i was thinking a moment in which wouldn't ships and sent with our infrastructure. not that metal didn't exist but it wasn't the fundamental point of our infrastructure. at the time to work wars against things that could be destroyed, wood and things. it such an interesting transition. >> the guys who first suggested making metal clad ships were also left out of the room. i think someone in the british navy said iron doesn't swim. and meant it like wood is great. would grows on trees.
i don't know what to talk about making boats out of metal, that's a crazy idea. still use the same the number one enemy of the navy is rust. if we keep doing things the way they are we can't keep our navy fleet the size of additives. >> thank you so much for the conversation. might interest is, as an author you are mixing these two stories, but how you are connecting, trying to put into, to the for and how you're communicating time. >> right. >> that something journalism is doing. >> they want to ask a question about that?
>> yes. as a reader i will say wow an interesting topic, getting to the meat of it. how you approach, you know the issues and how you are translating that information. >> well, a convenient thing about rust as the subject is that it's ever and people are fighting it in almost every industry. i look at how we keep the cans surviving for years. there's a corrosion guide at the ball corporation making sure that this stuff in your can survive with the coding and this can't end a refrigerator that's all they do is make your corrosion doesn't tell the scans. i look at the pipeline the statue of liberty, i went to nasa, the navy research lab. it's almost hard to not find someone fighting rust. it's an issue in server rooms.
they get rid of the oxygen so metal parts are not promoting. >> but you are not dotted by the science behind it. you really seem to dive into debt and to go into any conversation weather was just with a scientist or a monk photographing rust. how do you think you approached specifically the more complex scientific ideas? >> i am actually a verse to the word complex. i think we're doing everyone a disservice. >> sometimes they are complex. >> i mean, okay. >> but you feel like -- >> i don't think much is complex but i think complex is this mental thing. i'm serious. i think the signs of rust if you really get into it is probably tricky but on capable of understanding it. and i think most logical people
are capable of understanding mostthose things that they try. if you're not a doctor the human body sends seems off a complex. if you're a doctor are probably still so things we don't know about but i don't think it is specially, saying it is complicated, yes study it. >> but i mean there's so much jargon that can go along with certain field that you mix certain academic papers quite difficult to some who is not willing to look at each one of those words or think about the pathways of, you know, if you don't have a history and genetics injured trying to read a paper about the genome. it can be daunting. can you -- >> daunting for sure. complicated is our because when someone confuses you, if you say something silly and i don't understand it, your fault not mine. i don't understand it, and only understand. >> i think that is one of your strengths and it is the heart of journalism is to ask questions
until you understand it. and if you have a insatiable curiosity -- >> that's the funny part. i really do think about the end of the book i said thanks for letting ask like a million dumb questions. they might have been some questions but they also yield some answers and i think i figured out a lot of what people do and what they are getting at. it's like so many things you try. there's a learning curve we feel like a bumbling idiot at first continued become marginally good but still capable of killing herself and did you become an expert after however many hours. >> four years. it took you years to write this. >> engineering is a fun one for because it is trial and error. there's some science that goes into it, research lab science but about like pig in the pipeline we have -- we can
learn. like that's trial and error. i'm going to get sidetracked. to resist with the should of any texas newspaper, i pig axilla got launched out and planted through a rough any kids but i can't believe it to get more attention because basic newspaper story of a flying pig. i thought it would have been like on all the news channels news of the weird and it went nowhere. but if you do literature search for, accidents. the oil industry likes to be hush-hush. if you done such a thorough job of getting her fingers at anywhere in making sense of stuff it's not too intimidating anymore. >> i think we have a tendency sometimes to rush to solutions. i would like to believe that when they started using that
they were not conscious of the fact that it was a carcinogen. right here in durham there is a digging up right around the campus and they are about to replace iron pipes downtown with products that i think they could live at this point in time are going to be just fine they will last forever. todd knows what's going to happen -- god knows what's going to happen healthwise tougher in terms of is this more bpa? maybe you don't know why what are they replacing this stuff with? >> i think they want to replace iron with a steel institute i think iron has metal logical properties that are perhaps less desirable. [inaudible] >> okay. you do bring up a good point. no one knew what to do with epa
was and that's the funny thing was, industry, they are making five or 10 year projections based on sales. and now when you threaten to think they make their living on a system that they operate under, they have to play defense. they don't really want to argue that bpa is safe but that's the only positioned their left today. that's the cool thing about the modern world as we learn more about stuff that we never had the capacity to about the first time. i mentioned in the book the company, the delaware river, making plastic i-beam and the navy has tested these things by driving tanks over bridge made of these. there's also an issue putting big plastic things in the environment and sing at the docks and still whatever have all messed underneath a bridge if it all have 18 leaks.
icann, something we know. i'm not making any allegation about plastics but that is that's kind of where we are now, we can to crazy enough to test and not just learn to say no, it's a solution. that's what a book of engineering should be. everything is a traitor. you are balancing the ability to build it and the ability to maintain a. i wrote a lot of people who did maintenance and i talked briefly with matthew crawford the guy who wrote the book shop class is the sole craft which is kind of about what comes from doing work with your hands and maintaining things and knowing things and i think maybe there's something happening in american society where we like to think we're better than maintenance now. we like to think not my problem, i've got a job i wear a collar, you know, like some of the lawn someone buy my groceries. someone maintain that.
i tell people a lot i was reading a book, i really good book about a guy going across the oregon trail and his brother tells him if it breaks you get it takes a good no one says it like that. he's a mechanic. he likes fixing things. i make a point and now of getting it did maintenance if given the opportunity. >> corrosion is a quote-unquote natural process. you say you detected a note of shame, some people were reluctant to let you see the products were susceptible to corrosion. it makes me think of my stable -- saver advertising, sign pashtun in age correction green. i wanted to talk about some of that because you drive a rusty car, that's interpreted as, statement about you. there's a value. can you say a little bit about
the cultural charge? >> i bet they were not used this to i bet they were not allowed to use the word age reducing cream. that's a good one. i say in the book the rest is somewhere between cholesterol and hemorrhoids and it's awkward, it's there, you don't want to talk to everybody, and maybe it's like alcoholics anonymous. hey, i've got a rusty car. that's okay, he, too. but it's this funny line between ubiquitous, we've all seen this so we think we know it. but because it's so present we filed it away is kind of like i get back. like weeds or something growing on lawns. hemorrhoids and cholesterol is kind that there's a lot of natural processes humans are uncomfortable discussing, see
sex for example. corrosion, it occupies a strange place in the world where it's like every part of our brain is maximum distance from it. i mean i can tell more stories about cars if you want. pretty much every car manufacturer others have called cars because of roster i happen to love the fact rust has caused wiper pivot airbag get a, engine failure, steaming giunta, brake failure and it is caused some ford vehicles to spontaneously catch fire when they were parked. not sit writing this book actually made from some or carefully so that that happened which made my day. even if that happens if your vehicle catch is is that you probably don't want to tell your neighbors, my car blew up. >> i think with time for one
more question. spent i want you to a word or two about the connection between -- [inaudible] in particular with your findings around corrosion, whether it is rust or not interchangeable, sometimes not come in the modern use of these rare metals. >> thank you to all point out something i learned from the book is that rust only come is corrosion of iron technically. but corrosion is corrosion of all medals. so what i was interested in was looking at rare earth metals what are often called not really that rare and they are not earth. are these metals that go to cell phones and computers but they are mind and that is something that doctor much about but the minute of these metals can be
quite destructive the rare earth many of them are radioactive. you discuss some of the radioactive metals that go into a lot of our materials today. so i did was i went to the mojave desert with the only site in the u.s. where rare earths are being mined and a mind open to 1970s primarily for european which was used in color tubes of television sets because it produces this vibrant color red pics in some ways these metals exhibit colors that are defining the way that we see the world and they're continuing to do that in our lcv screens. that are responsible for how we are seeing the world and also how we are hitting the world because some of these metals have the specific properties that allow microphones to be in existence, for instance, in cameras and earbuds and cell phone, you know speakers.
so again it's something that is pervasive but maybe you could finish with just talking about mining a little bit. we don't really, that's something for me as a the concern is how much water goes into mining processes but then the cost of mining digging into the earth to get the material we use. >> i may talk about something to look carefully which is it's attempting to say like we did in the information age or whatever the twitter age of of the walking into while texting age and that is not the iron age anymore but, of course, the reason we are hunting so desperately for the stuff and using all this water and energy and taking in the mojave looking for these things is metals have amazing properties that in the information age we want. iron is not, it's great if you can make bridges out of iron and steel but if you want to make fancy electronics you've got to go dig up your opium and pretty
rare metals that are in relative non-abundance. >> and the difficulty that is separate event and dealing with the properties about, some of them are radioactive. >> we probably have more uranium and we have most of these metals. it's not easy to separate uranium, but good stuff from the other stuff. >> we are in this age now, it's a non-iron age but -- >> it's the magic stuff that its budget in the digital age is everything i want to do. >> i think that's a really good place pashtun is there anything else want to add to that but that's a great line. i think you need to set that up as the punctual and we are in that age now. i want to thank everybody for coming. there is food after an jonathan will be happy to sign books are happy to talk more outside. so thank you