tv Key Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN September 1, 2015 10:00am-12:01pm EDT
good work down there. they've always been so supportive and so some of you in the room were actually working there when i did the case we were talking about that earlier. so the people are what make this such an impressive thing. we obviously still have a lot of work to do. differentials, 75% of caucasians on their own homes, 45% of minorities, a huge differential. 28,000, nearly 28,000 fair housing complaints received in 2014 by the agencies that work on the cases. disability is now the leading source of complaints and race second. a lot of complaints can't get processed because the classes that are not yet protected. we ought to protect the new equality act. [applause] senator merkley has a new act that we all signed on to that basically says look at all the civil rights statutes when we go piecemeal after the next one but
all of them we ought to protect people from discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation. still a tremendous amount on the source of income, huge amounts of discrimination on that. [applause] and then you in these agencies have to deal with a real tsunami since 2007 and for closures. 5,000 homes since 2007. hugely disproportionate impact on the minorities into minority communities. minorities are 70 to 80% or likely to have company crumby subprime mortgage even though investigations approved they were often qualify for straightforward mortgages that didn't need to get subprime but they were pushed in by people that wanted to make more money on the commissions. so there is still a tremendous amount of work. i am so happy as i concluded to say tuesday that the supreme court finally resolve that issue. we were talking in the 80s about could we get a definitive
ruling, could we get one that was rock solid on the disparate impact and the fact that they have finally approved it always years later, what a good thing. i really applaud you. not just having the localities to report on impediments to their housing. that's not enough. you have been affirmatively promote fair housing that's what they should do and you've put your muscle behind it. as a guy that was not only - we were having to write those just like you were. there's nothing wrong with asking local officials to demonstrate that they are affirmatively promoted for housing and the fact that hud is doing that is great. and the last thing i will say is you are the front lines. i will just conclude with my one piece of advice.
i am kind of a fanatic about trying to decipher vanity license plates. so you follow the license plate and somebody has got him one with one saying that you're trying to read it and see what it means infrequently i will go way past my exit on the highway because i'm trying to figure it out so this is my favorite vanity license plate that i've ever seen and it is my advice on the front line. so i was following this guide when they and it was ga4th&x. you can see why i followed him. ga4th&x. baby some of you are too young to remember what the "&" is. if not go for it but go forth
and multiply. it was either a minister or a mathematician i was following but that's my advice to you on the front line. go forth and multiply. [applause] thanks a lot. [applause] thank you very much lets give a round of applause. vice president walter mondale, secretary julian castro. thank you very much. we conclude the opening program now for the media if you exit the door somebody will be waiting for you. thank you very much everyone. [applause] >> before we go to break we have a few housekeeping matters to attend to.
first take all of the trash and cuts as you exit the room. also please note the restrooms are located on the north and south side of the building in the lobby area. also we do not have come from every everywhere but you can purchase that. we will resume - >> taking a break at the department of housing and urban development 2015 national fair housing conference. we just heard from the secretary julian castro, former vice president walter mondale commander that u.s. senator tim kaine of virginia the last to speak. we are going to show you the that comments from the secretary and the former vice president and just a moment during the break. we want to let you know that we will bring you back here for the first panel which is a panel on the residential segregation the history of government-sponsored housing segregation and some of the present-day challenges that
others are trying to use to overcome segregation in housing. but first a look back at some of the first speakers starting with the secretary of housing and urban development, julian castro. [applause] >> good morning. welcome to the 2015 fair housing policy conference. everybody looks excited to be here. it is excited to be here with you this morning and share the stage with two very distinguished public servants. i want to thank you for the great word you do for the strong leadership i know that the entire team do tremendous work day in and day out. i thank them for their service and for organizing a great event today. [applause]
i would also like to thank senator tim kaine for joining us. senator kaine brings not just the siege of his office as the senator in virginia former governor of virginia to the stage. but the two decades of powerful and impactful work as a fair housing lawyer. thank you for being here. [applause] let me also express my gratitude to a very special guest a champion for fair housing. i know a hero to the team. former vice president walter mondale. [applause] throughout his public life, he stood up for the rights and dignity of all americans no
matter how the political winds were blowing at the time. i want to thank you for your lasting contributions, for all of us here, it is quite a privilege to welcome you to this room named in your honor the mondale auditorium. [applause] finally let me thank all of you in the audience for your commitment to bring about a more open and fair housing market. you are partners in progress and help open new doors for families every single day. keep up the good work. this is why we gather today because we share a common belief that every american deserves opportunity regardless of what they look like, where they come from, or who they worship. and a common resolve to do
something about it. we know that everybody wins when a family gets a chance at good housing, when a child gets a quality education, when a parent gets a good job and when the elderly have healthcare. and that's a fair america is a thriving america. equal opportunity is the nations sounding promise. but each generation has had to fight to make this promise real for all of its citizens, to advocate for equal treatment in classrooms and public facilities and in the voting booth. and eventually, despite extending to the housing market in the 1960s at a time when blatant discrimination was still too common. in the summer of 1967, carlos campbell in african-american
navy lieutenant testified at a hearing held by then senator mondale. he landed a job at the department of defense after years of decorated service in vietnam. but when he went looking for housing near the pentagon, he found only closed doors. he visited nearly 40 places and encountered rejection after rejection. some landlords said it would take weeks to process a routine application, clearly a lie. others were more direct and told them they didn't believe in integration. and they risk everything to
protect the service, the job, the income. the story played out city after city and town after town, year after year. the commission famously wrote the nation is moving toward two societies. one black, one white, separate and unequal. housing discrimination inside many families to the life of poor health health, data schools in low-wage jobs with little hope for the future. the walter mondale and ed brooks didn't accept his fate for the
nation. and their determination to invite phoenicians bonds led the passage bombs led to the passage of the fair housing act of 1968 which declared that every american has the right to live where they choose. it's true that we have come a long way since 1968 and the communities are more integrated. this impacts the disparate impact standard. [applause] i want to thank the team and the department of justice for the great work they did along with the advocates that brought the case.
the study revealed that they showed fewer places" at higher prices. they remained segregated in the race, national origin, income. so all of us in this room know that there is still work to do. and we know the role is as important as ever. we have a great network of partners many of whom are in the room today from the department of justice and the state and local agencies join us in this enforcement work to the nonprofits carrying out the work in their own communities, to the housing industry which is taking proactive steps to promote better quality housing and greater housing choice for all. and this work is making a difference. over the past six years we helped get $330 million in
compensation for more than 49,000 individuals who brought complaints of housing discrimination. pregnant women and the night of loans by banks, survivors of domestic violence addicted from their homes, residents harassed by their landlords. hud is here for them. and they are not waiting until the wrongdoing occurs. we are waiting for the partners to take proactive steps in eliminating the opportunity. for instance in july, hud announced the new fair housing rule. [applause] >> this rule unfinished business from the 1968 fair housing act will help ensure that communities across the united states have the tools to maximize their investments in
affordable housing and better improve the landscape of opportunity in their balance. we are working with cities across the nation breaking through silos to boost opportunities to ensure that every family's destiny is determined by their effort and talent, not by the color of their skin or their last name or word where they were born. this is an exciting time for all americans that care about fair housing. the nation has made significant strides shaving a society that is open to all. and none of this would be possible without the vision, the wisdom and the determination of walter mondale. there is no doubt the national fair housing legislation is a controversial issue. it requires action he once said the barriers of housing
discrimination stifles hope and achievement. they tell citizens trapped in the urban slum that there is no escape outlawing discrimination and rental housing will not free the traps but it's absolutely essential first step. he displayed the courage time and again through the service and the corporal u.s. army as a senator and ambassador and the vice president. and even in the decision to put the first woman on a presidential ticket, geraldine for - fararo.
a hero for all of those that can walk through the doors that were once closed and it is a pleasure to have him here. one of the fathers of fair housing. please join me in welcoming the former vice vice president walter mondale. [applause] thank you so much. [applause] thank you so much secretary for those very kind words and for your magnificent leadership of this crucial department and for your powerful message about fair housing and for mentioning the lieutenant general jay campbell
who is the key witness that helped so fair housing at the time that people didn't know what we were talking about. as you pointed out, he was a handsome young navy officer with a beautiful family and was recognized as a newcomer in the navy and was assigned to a top position in the pentagon that but as you mentioned couldn't find a place to live, a home to live near the pentagon. and i think they went to some 40 places and got to be a routine. is there a place available for rent? yes. they would show up at the front door with their hands on family and handsome family and that person would say no it's not for rent. 40 times they did.
and this compelling message had a lot to do in slicing through the apathy that surrounded this issue. i'm also glad to be here with the wonderful senator from virginia. when i hear that we had a senator from virginia who is a legal services fair housing lawyer, i believe that i've been worn and gone to heaven. [applause] by that, i worked with senator robinson and byrd, that was the team at the time. don't tell me we are not making progress. [laughter] i also want to recognize my friends from minnesota that has helped me on this issue, one of the nations experts in the fair
housing. [applause] and the dean david whitman. together they are with us on this issue. like 1968, today is a time of hope and uncertainty. i commend the hud for its new disparate impact and affirmative fair housing rules and rejoice - let me put some umph behind that. [applause] but in ferguson, baltimore and other cities continuing segregation undermines equal opportunity, and as we know it causes racial riots.
this is the most important bonus idea for the fair housing since 1968, and we must use it to the maximum advantage. in 1966 martin luther king brought his fair housing act to chicago as you remember and wrote that segregation is not only politically economically and socially unsound, but is morally wrong and sinful. i think that he told the truth then and they are truthful words today. ed brooks - i noticed that we are in this hall, first time i've been here he kept telling me to come and i arrive if i arrived at he can be with us. wonderful man, great co-author of the fair housing bill, and i think together we have made a difference. on the day that we raised the fair housing bill i had a break
created the presiding officer from minnesota recognized me as we were off to the races. the bill struggled through congress and i use the word struggle. you can imagine what that was like. we had a fair housing measure that was presented and there were about five different sections. one was fair housing. they said this will pass so they separated in five different divisions and dropped fair housing which then became a separate bill. when i introduced the bill, the attorney general clark ramsey came to see me and said this won't pass but we will be nice to you and we are glad you're doing it but it's hopeful said we don't want to get your heart into it. and we, you know, we had to get
67 votes in the senate to even get a vote on the measure. if you don't think that is a high hill to climb than you need some new lessons about climbing. we finally got the matter on the floor. we had three unsuccessful motions more each time but still short of cloture. on the fourth cloture vote which most ever held on the measure up to that time. mike mansfield said this is it if you don't get it this time we are pulling the bill down. so i went to him and said what do i do. he said coal lyndon johnson. so i called the president, which you don't do every day. and i told them our predicament. he said do you know of any code that can be cast for this where the person wouldn't be heard?
where they wouldn't have trouble politically and i said well the senator from alaska could do that but he's against cloture but he also wants the project in downtown anchorage. he said thank you and hung up. so the next morning on the floor we get the cloture. most people didn't think that we would do it and just as it was ending i saw the senator from alaska come through the back door and a vote. and we passed the fair housing. we got the cloture on the fourth vote with no votes to spare but we got it. then the bill went to the house and went to the judge smith committee. this was an 18th century committee chaired by a 17th
century chairman. [laughter] and he hated this bill. he wasn't going to let it pass. we thought we were dead. and then of course tragically martin luther king was killed. the anger in the country forced the house to raise the dough from the committee. it passed into passed in the passed into weeks later when week later when ben johnson signed into the fair housing act one of the great miracles and victories in history. [applause] it's important to note and remember that none of this was possible without republican support. we had ed derksen, ed brooks, about 14, 16 republican senators
who are with us because they were when did republicans. they thought civil rights was their idea and they voted for it and gave us the margin that we needed. for them, the support came easy. i think justice kennedy reached an opinion in the case that shows maybe some of that republicanism resides even on the supreme court. [applause] the debate was clear. what the bill meant i think is absolutely clear. above all the congress intended that the fair housing act to serve as a powerful tool to end racial residential segregation in private housing discrimination and to replace with the vibrant indicated
neighborhoods. that is what we said in the bill. in the senate debate in 1968, ed brooks said there was an overwhelming proportion of public housing in the united states is directly built to finance and supervised by the federal government and it is racially segregated. senator barack was right then and is right today. the fair housing act commanded the federal funds not used to create or maintain presidential segregation. instead of the federal government, all governments that receive any federal funds must be affirmatively further fair housing. this meant the federal government and recipients of the federal funding had to do everything in their power to - or at the justice put it, use their leverage to create a more integrated america. because of the fair housing act, almost 45% of the suburban
residence in large metropolitan areas within racial diversity suburbs. these communities are a model or a nation integrated have shown the nation's greatest success in eliminating the disparities education and economic opportunities. all the studies show that. if these places suffer from a continued the continued this termination and ongoing resegregation. the fair housing act has unfinished business with high income black families cannot qualify for a loan and are steered away from white suburbs the the goals are not fulfilled. when the federal and state governments would play to build new suburban highways, streets, sewers, schools and parks but then allow them to exclude affordable housing and not the citizens, the goal of the fair
housing act are not fulfilled. when we build new housing for the black or latino neighborhoods the goals of the fair housing act. my home state has a strong economy and a reputation for supporting the needs of the citizens. but even here the recent reports are showing large racial disparities in growing segregation in our own communities in schools. this summer because of the recent rules we stand for the first time in nearly 50 years with new walls and leadership that can make a difference. new laws that can help find these effectively. ..
children and mixed income neighborhoods and schools are more likely to graduate from high school, attend college, have higher income and life, liberty work in integrated communities and have good jobs and benefits. that's a dream and we know what works there now we have to make certain they get more energy behind the movement here in free from segregation from a racially integrated places like louisville have become economic powerhouses. here at hud, the rules and principles of immigration are not just those working in fair housing at this high level but also places around the country where the strength and power of hud is needed. i call upon all of you and i know you will enforce the new energy that remarkable decision gives you in the powerful rules provide you at every level to
end segregation and helped diverse places stay strong and diverse. if i can help integrated communities prosper and work together commend the children of the fair housing act and that the -- leave the country by example. that is the dream. thank you. [applause] >> just an early remarks in the conference. vice president walter mondale sponsored legislation on fair housing in 1968 expecting the first panel today to get underway here looking at residential segregation come in the history of government-sponsored housing segregation in the present-day challenges to overcome in the racial segregation in housing. [inaudible conversations]
now while we wait for the first panel to get underway today, let you know this is a three-day conference started this morning. we heard earlier from train to come the secretary of hud and former vice president, walter mondale. let's look at remarks from u.s. senator tim kaine from virginia. we'll bring you back to the conference as soon as the panel begins. >> thanks so much. thank you. what a wonderful event. if i wasn't sitting up here, i would be sitting there. a chance to your vice president mondale speak about the passage of the bill in 1968, this is really really exciting. secretary castro, thank you for your leadership he had been at
issue so well having been mayor of san antonio and now in this roulette hud in your leadership and so many levels is advancing the cause. things are pulling this together. i'm truly honored to be in this room with you. please give them each another round of applause. [applause] i'm just excited to be with all of you advocates on the front lines whether hud, local governments, the fair housing organizations are housing providers, you're at the front lines making this law and reality. you heard from the vice president how the law was passed and i want to share stories about being at the front lines for a while for 17 years where this is about 75% of my law does trying to get the frontlines of making law of reality and the commonwealth of virginia. the vice president about the legal representation from the
commonwealth was standing in the late 1968 in the senate in the senate and house and i'm happy to tell you virginia today is different than virginia of 1968. very happy to tell you that. when i started practicing law in 1984 it wasn't so different. let me tell you about my first client. i had graduated from law school in and 83 clerked for a year, went to work with a tall person law firm in richmond and was obviously the newest lawyer. somebody comes and says i need help and it's a pro bono thing and they say who can make it to do this. there's this new guy who can do it. her first name, lorraine came into my office and shared a story much like the vice president discussion about the testimony at the hearing and she
said i wanted to move out of my parents home. i just got out of college and fun apartment advertised. i first my job in the world for the first time. i want to get my first apartment on my own. i see something advertised in the newspaper. i call and asking if available and i said at the time to come visit and see the apartment and as soon as i get there a limit sees me and says we just rented the place. i go back to my office and it doesn't feel right and ask a colleague to call the same number and when the call and ask him at the apartment is still available. simple open and shut case. i brought the case for her and we won. the thing that struck me in strikes me today as i had one of those server for the grace of god moment as i'm talking to the rain because we were almost the same age. i just moved to a new city. i just rented an apartment in
for me the experience was exciting. i'm getting my own home. i'm not under my parents supervision. where you live is not a physical thing. relationships are important for your house for your house where you live is another thing. it is part of the definition of who you are a sick person and as the rain told me her story, my experience was an experience for me that was such a positive, going into the world and starting my pocket is the dope was a negative for her because of the color of her skin. the next time she looked for an apartment she would wonder should be treated fairly or not. would have a ripple effect in the course of her life and she would be worried and concerned
in an experience for me that was exciting with anxiety for her. i never forgot the experience across the table and feeling similarities with her in her time of life that the dramatic difference each of us had as they had the experience of finding an apartment. when i represented her in when the case i became the virginia expert on the fair housing laws. one case and i was the expert in virginia on the fair housing laws. the reason is the original fair housing law has strict limitations on damages you could collect until the revisions and most lawyers can bring the case is because were not remunerative. because i done one suddenly i started to do all kinds of cases. in the course of 17 years i
worked on cases about rental apartments, purchase of houses, purchase or rental of mobile homes, advertising, financing mortgages in my largest case was with insurance redlining. i did a case of discrimination based on race and a lot of family status and my clients were all kinds of folks. obviously a number people like lorraine forwarded the dems for survivors of the bad treatment but also testers come the fair housing organizations. one of the best in the united states come absolutely fantastic organization. i represented nonprofit housing providers, companies that build group homes for folks with developmental disabilities and represented them a lot of times. i represented employees of apartment management companies that wanted to a department store told by bosses they couldn't because the person applied with a minority.
in the wild case i represented a real estate agent who closed on idea only to have the deal snuck out from under her because people didn't want this couple she misrepresented to go when in the main bacon town in a group of neighbors got together, canceled the contract and provided the home to somebody else. i won that case based in them under the fair housing month that the antitrust laws for monopolizing the market in the way african-americans can be served. i said a lot of legal precedents. the first case established using human models and advertisements could be a violation of the fair housing laws. an apartment company in richmond would put out a brochure about the apartment building and all the people, 400 people were white.
we brought it under disparate impact theory but were able to prove it was done intentionally. they prove the fair housing act applied to mobile homes. you wouldn't think that would be controversial but had a lawyer make a novel argument because mobile homes are taxed as personal property rather than real property in virginia the fair housing laws didn't apply because it had wheels on it. i did win that case. it was very close. i had a number of cases in a precedent about the fair housing act trumping restrictive covenants and zoning rules limiting the number of people who could live in a house. zoning laws do that. federal housing month so you can't discriminate -- thank you. [applause] >> thank you in good morning.
my name is brian greene. in the general deputy assistant secretary of hud's office of fair housing. it is my pleasure to join you today as the moderator of the first panel for national training and policy conference. the title of the session is the problem we the problem we all live with, residential segregation. the title, the problem we all live with comes from a norman rockwell painting that shows a black crow headed to a white school with federal marshals escorted her. the painting is from 1964. that could be titled the problem we still love it. many of our metropolitan areas remain segregated today despite residential desegregation been a stated goal we spoke to it on
the senate floor. even then in 1968. he describes segregation later he lived with for too long. today's federal housing officials commonly invades against the evils of ghetto life as he pushes the buttons that ratify the triumph when you asked the gentleman why despite the 1962 their house in order, most public housing is segregated and he invariably blames it on regional custom, local tradition and personal prejudice of municipal housing officials. i was 1968. everyone here have table? -- cable. my wife decided we didn't need
cable. [laughter] you all remember the commercials i want my mtv. lately i have been saying i want my hbo. you know why? the past three weeks every sunday i've had to go to friends houses while i was on vacation back to the hotel room to watch david simons hbo miniseries on housing desegregation in yonkers in the midnight teen 80s. it is a show called show me a hero. if you haven't seen it, you must check it out. david simon, the producer said he first decided he wanted to make the show back in 1999 when he optioned the book that a "new york times" reporter named lisa belkin had written on the oscars case. what drew him to an hbo miniseries on housing
desegregation? he said he saw in long-standing topology among the american population who wanted to talk about. the general population is not good at sharing physical space or power by many kinds of social dynamics with significant numbers of people of color. over the years the project kept getting bumped and in the meantime he produce shows like the wire and try my but he kept coming back to this project. he said at every point there was a fresh example of the dynamic was still there, the racial typology was still intact. he added i think it's only become more pronounced and he told his interviewer to show a screen before ferguson, before baltimore, before charleston.
simon could have written a blurb in your program that describes the panel assembled today. simon charged there is a long history of american government as federal, state and local levels using public money to purposely hyper segregated our society. poor people didn't just send a pack in the housing projects in one square mile of yonkers by accident. it was a plan in chicago, baltimore, dallas and everywhere they took federal monies in the 1930s. here we are in 2015, an illustrious panel to share ideas on what we all can do now to make real on the promise of the fair housing act. hud has turned a corner on this. as you know, hud has issued a new rule that breathes life and
that flesh and bone to the fair housing act and date that hud and its grantees to proactive steps to fulfill the desegregated goals of the fair housing act. when we issued the rule, president obama in the weekly address reminded the nation why this is so critical. he said in some cities kids living blocks apart but incredibly different lives. they go to different schools, playing different parks, shopping different stores and walked down different streets. often the quality of the schools in the safety of those parks and streets are far from equal. which means those kids are getting an equal shot at life. our panel knows that not everyone agrees it is government's business to address this. perhaps our panel can tell us how we respond to critics who called the zephyrs social
engineering. i will leave you with some words from david simon who balks at this term. he says the idea that social engineering starts at the moment somebody might want to restore somebody to their full civil rights 40 years into the rigged game and that is when you jacked. sorry, he says. that is racist to begin your argument there. i have a feeling that is not where our panelists will begin the argument. me tell you about them. richard rothstein is research associate at the economic policy institute. in the fall 2014 he published the making of ferguson, public policies at the the root of its troubles come a report documenting the racially explicit federal state and local public policies is segregated the st. louis metropolitan area.
is the author grade education can the author grade education can make it in accountability writing class and schools using social economic and educational reform to close the black white achievement gap. his many other publications on education and race can be found at the economic policy institute website. cheryl and i follows president direct or counsel at the naacp legal defense and educational fund, the nation's premier civil rights law organization. her career has been committed to civil rights laws first as a fellow at the aclu and the young litigator at the lgf which he now needs. for 20 years, she was a tenured professor at the university of maryland school of law. she is the author and media commentator on matters involving race and civil rights. definitely university of maryland phantom. so let's have our panel. first to hear from richard rothstein. thank you.
[applause] >> thank you very much, brian. thanks to be back here at hud. i want to talk to you a bit this morning for a few minutes about the national context of our system of racial segregation in which every metropolitan area in the country is racially segregated. every one is your dress by predominantly white suburbs that encircle predominantly black, in some cases other minorities, urban areas and inner cities and first ring suburbs. we now have as you've heard already today a new emphasis on affirmatively furthering fair
housing and not monitoring the disparate impact of policies by which you cannot prove racial motivation. but stopping discrimination as we go forward will not undo the segregation that has been established over a century of public policy. affirmatively furthering and i don't like the euphemism fair housing, it is going to require much more aggressive policy and simply making sure we don't continue to discriminate. the main barrier in my view to pursuing aggressive policies to desegregate the society that was segregated explicitly by public policy is a national myth. the necktie shared not only by conservatives, but by liberals,
public policy advocates, politicians from across the political spectrum and the minute they said we have something in the country today to recall a de facto segregation. as chief justice john roberts described to her racial balance is a product not of state action that a private choice it has -- does not have constitutional implications. in other words, if we have a system which is not established by the government, we have no obligation to undo the system even if we can prohibit discrimination going forward. this view that we have set back the segregation has been a dominant view of the supreme court for the last almost 40 years and it has taken over all our conversations in the public policy realm.
1974, justice potter's tour in a case in which he was joining a majority that said we do not need to desegregate unum metropolitan wide basis because he said the segregation in this case detroit of all places said to segregation was created by unknown and perhaps unknowable factors such as immigration, birth rates, economic changes or axa private racial fears. that is the dominant narrative in this country still today. as you heard earlier amnesty knew before you came here today, we had a remarkable decision authored by justice anthony kennedy and the disparate impact case this june, the inclusive community's decision.
what was remarkable about the decision was not simply justice kennedy allowed disparate impact standards to continue to be used in every judicial district in the country and by hud for decades now. what is remarkable is justice kennedy said that a departure from the constant reiteration of the notion we have de facto segregation in the country. justice kennedy said in the opinion we have the jury segregation by race, the jury by law, by public policy action, by race was declared unconstitutional almost a century ago but it's vestiges remain today intertwined with the country's economic and social life. segregated housing can be traced to conditions of the rows in the mid-20th century. during this time, various practices are followed sometimes with governmental support to
encourage and maintain separation of the races. by the 1960s, policies, practices and prejudices created many predominantly black inner cities surrounded by white suburbs here that the phenomenal statement in view of the history i described before of the court and policy generally arguing the segregation of metropolitan areas was unknown and unknowable and its origins and where it was not created by government action, it has no cons to judicial implications. there is no obligation to undo it. even justice breyer would expect to know better in a decision just six years ago were eight years ago said the segregation of the metropolitan areas was de facto, the same argument we've heard from conservative justices
that he said the disagreement but the line of argument we've been hearing was to have the segregation community is permitted even if they can't be compelled to. what i want to describe in a few minutes as we have such a systemic system, such a systemic pattern of governmental sponsorship to establish the landscape in the country that we have a constitutional as well as legislative obligation to undo it and we are failing in our responsibilities as american citizen if we fail to pursue that obligation. let me describe some of the history we've all forgotten. it once was well known and i'll come to that later. with all forgotten how the federal, state and local governments consciously segregated metropolitan areas by raise. not the disparate impact of well-intentioned policies,
consciousconscious ly segregated our metropolitan areas by race. the main driver initially began in the 1930s when we first began to build civilian public housing in this country. under the new deal the public works administration was the first federal agency to support public housing, to subsidize localities to build public housing. harold dickey, the most liberal member of the roosevelt administration in the new deal had been president of the n. naacp before he became to work. he's the most liberal member of roosevelt's brain trust cabinet proposed a composition rule which that public housing should be restrict it to people of the race village in the neighborhood were public housing is located. this was the liberal view of the roosevelt administration.
the purpose of the public housing for blacks as well as whites. conservatives wanted no public housing at all. the liberal view with separate public housing and this was a benefit to the african-american population. under the new deal in the first decade, 21 fully segregated projects were built by federal government. some from african-americans, some for white. in addition six projects integrated that the buildings were segregated. they raised integrated neighborhoods and mr. politan areas throughout the country and the grounds that they were spawns and instead substituted for the integrated neighborhoods of segregated public housing projects. at that time in the 1930s before everybody had automobiles , where both european immigrants, african-americans,
other whites from rural areas had come to work in factories. they'll had to live close enough to walk to work so the neighborhoods were relatively integrated. that's not to say there were clusters of different ethnicities and races, but overall the neighborhoods were integrated. i like to talk about st. louis because it led to the segregation of ferguson. in st. louis the downtown area neighborhood in the 1930s was 55% white and 45% black. the federal government subsidize the city of st. louis to build public housing. they demolished the neighborhood 55% white, 45% black to build an all-black public housing project in st. louis again with federal government support delta and all my projects out the downtown area so you had an integrated neighborhood in the public housing program separated it. this was not an accident.
richmond, california, had a very tiny black population, almost none before world war ii. its data was greeted by the federal government what it the separate housing for world -- workers who came to work for blacks on one side of town and for what's on the other side of them. the blacks are closer to the shipyard, closer to the industrial area. the whites were farther away a more residential areas. in one case another california example that i've read about and studied, the hunters point naval yard in san francisco drew many, many defense plant workers to service the navy yard at hunters point, the dry dock in san francisco. san francisco wanted to build an integrated public housing project. the navy prohibited them from doing so. the navy insisted it be
segregated. this was true again throughout the country. in detroit the willow run bomber pilot the outside detroit and every that previously had been underdeveloped. so there was no previous pattern of segregation in that neighborhood, but the government built housing for white workers only. blacks were prohibited from living in housing the government created for the willow run bomber plant. i became a white suburb of detroit. not by accident. not because african-americans did want to live there but because the federal government specifically built housing for white workers only from which blacks were prohibited. there's a big something housing shortage doubling this country, not only in the 1930s and during world war ii when the trails were not available for seven housing construction, but after world war ii, the korean war then again consumed many materials. there was a big shortage of
civilian housing. and 1949 president harry truman proposed a national housing act to build massive public housing across the country still mostly for whites because this was a civilian housing shortage. it wasn't his african-americans are needed housing. public housing was the most desirable housing available for middle-class and working-class families. president truman proposed national housing act to finance massive expansion of the nation's public housing program. conservatives in congress who are opposed to any federal involvement in private housing market, this has nothing to do with race, they were opposed to government involvement in the private housing market. conservatives in congress came up with a poison pill amendment. poison pill and and, we still have these today. these are amendments that legislators can put on the bill which became in his adopted adventures ensures the entire bill will be defeated. conservatives in congress
proposed an anonymity the national housing act that president clinton had proposed. yemen and was that all public housing from now on had to be integrated. they knew full well at this and were passed southern democrats would then vote against the entire public housing program which bit support on this segregated basis. liberals in congress led i've been senator hubert humphrey and by another leading liberal senator at the time paul douglas ed longanecker to liberals in congress campaigned against the integration amendment argument that if the integration and/or passively no public housing at all and african-americans would be better off with segregated public housing they would be with no public housing at all. i think in retrospect we can question their judgment about the wedding and event they campaigned against the integration and in the. it was a defeat with the liberal
vote, once that was defeated the public housing program and as a result a massive expansion of public housing throughout the country. the robert l. thompson chicago and the fruit homes in st. louis which were built under the provisions of this 1949 segregated public housing act. the prewitt tower as memory with them, they became an iconic symbol of segregated, public housing in this country. they were originally built as two separate projects. approved project was for blacks, the other was for whites. this went on throughout the country. as late as 1984 a newspaper investigation i reporters from the "dallas morning news" surveyed 47 metropolitan areas across the country. they found i in one of those metropolitan areas public housing with segregated by race and in every one of those
projects the facilities, the amenities, services and the maintenance and the white projects with superior to that in the black projects. well, i mentioned amendment ago the prewitt powers in st. louis. you may recall eventually they became infested with drug dealers, low income families only your lots of people on welfare. public, no longer had families in as they get richer that it was all black. the powers that have been built for whites suddenly had no more whites wanting to look housing so they were long waiting list for the pruitt towers are african-american films and there were vacancies empty igoe towers so eventually the st. louis housing authority opened a igoe towers for blacks. how did that happen? how did it happen we had a big something housing shortage and 1949 comment by 1955, when the
igoe towers were open to african-americans there was no longer housing shortage for whites. they no longer needed public housing. it was only housing shortage for african-americans. to understand the way to look at another federal program, a program administered by the predecessor agency of hud, the federal housing administration. the federal housing administration and berkeley program in the 1940s and 50s to suburbanize the white population of this country. explicitly the white population of this country. they embarked on a program to finance, to underwrite loans, mass production builders to create subdivisions on condition. this is a federal housing administration condition. on condition that developers who took these loans would not sell homes to african-americans. suburbs around the country were created for whites only. the housing shortage
disappeared. whites could lead the public housing projects where they lived and if they were returning war veterans they could buy homes in these white suburbs in which the monthly carrying charges that they had on these homes are less than the rate they were paying in public housing. this was for explicitly whites only. we know some of these come you're familiar with many of these projects, suburbs around the country. new york, but probably best known is levittown from 17,000 homes built on condition that levitt not sell homes to african-americans, loans to build the project was guaranteed by the federal housing administration. some of you may recall hearing a song that pete seeger used to sing about the rentals wrote about houses on a hillside made at the ticky-tacky, if you drive south of san francisco you will see a daily city, also built with the federal housing administration funds that were
on condition that no homes be sold to african-americans. let me just play out this levittown example for me. in 1947, homes in levittown guaranteed by the federal housing administration sold for about seven to 8000 of their in today's dollars after the $125,000 in today's terms. those homes today so for about 400, $500,000. we now have and will compete for a lot of up-to-date and to you about before, the fair housing act which is okay african-americans you can now move to levittown. we no longer prohibiting you from moving to levittown, but while the fair housing act is a wonderful thing, and a precipitous commission against african-americans who want to move to levittown, you can't undo the federal policy that created levittown in the first place.
because homes in 1947 were affordable to working and lower middle class african-americans the way they were affordable to working and lower middle-class whites are no longer affordable to middle-class families today. so even though we have a 1968 fair housing act which ripped discrimination, and there may be some discrimination still in levittown but blacks are able to move to levittown today. levitan is to love simply put in a metropolitan areas 23% black. today nationwide african-americans on average have incomes that about 60% of white incomes on average. african-american wealth and most wealth in this country is wealth in housing equity, african-american wealth is 5% of white wealth. income, the ratio is 6% of wealthiest 5%. that's almost entirely attributable to explicit federal
racial policy that prohibited african-americans from gaining the equity that the white families, their descendents can sell them for $500,000 gained. what would it take to remedy this kind of policy? simply saying we can't discriminate against african-americans is not going to remedy this policy. i'll kill you what everybody would look like a remedy that would meet constitutional standards that even john roberts says if it's governmentally sponsored, then there's a constitutional obligation to undo it. the federal government should go out and purchase the next 23% of homes that come up for sale in levittown have had to pay $5000 whatever they should become every cell to qualified african-americans for $125,000. that would be -- [applause] that would be affirmatively
furthering fair housing in a way that is constitutionally required. it's completely politically unrealistic to talk about that but what is a completely unrealistic works the reason is because we have completely forgotten the history of how federal, and i can go with state and local governments have purposely segregate the metropolitan areas. and because we forgotten about and we think that we have de facto segregation is people don't want to live with each other, different races or they don't have the money to afford to integrate or because, in migration or whatever, potter stewart said. they think that things that happen the accident on the undone by accident. if americans recognize the things that were done on purpose can only be remedied by things done on purpose, then we might
have a chance to be good to think of some of these policies that would reverse the social engineering that created the metropolitan society. brian talked about, was even talk of social engineering? yes, social engineering. we need to undo the social engineering that created the metropolitan landscape that we have today and we can't unless we understand the history because vista is what creates the obligation for affirmative policies today. there are many things of course that we can do short of aggressive policies that limit small differences. of course, we can abolish discrimination, source of income discrimination. of course, we can assure the low-income housing tax credit is not used disproportionately and minority and low-income communities. but in order to really address the segregation of our metropolitan areas, to integrate
not just low-income people into middle-class areas of middle income african-americans in proportionate numbers into middle-class areas as and to levittown example i talked about, will have to become familiar with the history of how we purposely created this segregation. i think that in addition to the things to all of you doing in your local level to prohibit ongoing discrimination, the most important job in addition to that i tried to do is to educate your communities about how they got to be where the art so that people will begin to understand the obligation that they have a undo the segregation that we all live with. thank you. [applause] >> good morning and thank you
very much. thank you, brian, and all of you here at hud, and thank you, richard, for always providing this wonderful seminar. richard and i have been doing these joint talks here at hud and other places come and have always riveted by his presentation on this really, really important history. i think i want to pause and talk with you all today a little bit about the contemporary manifestation of some of the history that richard is talking about. and also encourage you to make what i think are some important connections between what you've been seeing on your television over the last year as we've do with issues of police violence and urban unrest, and also to
recognize, frankly, your role, our role, my roll into problem we all live with. in the second data structure which we've come to take for granted. we've come to accept it. we have come to believe that it is simply part of the landscape. and disposal of which is spent a few moments talking about why we must resist this. not only because we have the fair housing act and the wonderful af ag ruled by we all believe in integration because we have devoted our lives most of us to fight against discrimination. but because as a democracy imperative, if this country is to make it come if you and i are to make it, unified, we have to get our hands around this problem of segregation.
this past spring when baltimore erupted in days of unrest in the wake of the death of freddie gray in police custody, i get a lot of media. some of you may have seen some of it. and when i did that i was asked a lot of questions about baltimore. after all, i lived in baltimore city for 20 years. i now live in baltimore county for five years but i've got a university of maryland law school for 22 years and although i'm a native new yorker i really transplanted to baltimore and took it on as my home and raise my children to and so people in a lot of questions from about what he was sitting on on the television screen. they wanted to know why were young people so angry, why were they throwing things at the police? why would people burning this assist in their own neighborhoods? will the cbs epic about? why is there so much tension
between the police and residents of west baltimore. why would freddie gray run from the police? all of these questions are important questions and once i entered the in and out but i regard it part of my obligation during those very eager days and with so much attention was on baltimore city. to press a different set of questions, the questions that were being neglected and questions that really preoccupied my thinking, questions about the west baltimore neighborhood where freddie gray grew up. i wondered why the cvs was only recognizable chainstore we saw on the street. no starbucks, no pets more, no chick-fil-a. of course, all businesses are important and valuable, but it was hard for me to imagine that all the hand wringing from clinton's and city leaders was really about their concern for the easy tobacco mart and some
of the other businesses that characterized north avenue where the unrest took place. why would the streets of west baltimore in such dilapidated condition that baltimore city police to take arrestees on a quote-unquote rough ride to punish them in the back of a police van quacks how could freddie gray and his siblings have been so severely lead poisoned in housing in baltimore in the 1990s? 70 years after the dangers of lead paint were well known around the world. what were we to make of an education system that appears to have failed not only freddie gray by disparate who by some accounts are also unable to read and write? how did the committee get to be the west baltimore where freddie gray grew up and allegedly sold drugs that fateful encounter with the police? a west baltimore were police officers don't live in the neighborhood, yet managed to
streets and the king of using a kind of merry-go-round catch and release of young african-american men for young -- low-level drug crimes? how do we account for the west baltimore that was being projected on television every night? the secret to understanding the anger, despair, frustration, the demand for attention and justice that we witnessed during that unrest. lies and understanding the delivered an unlimited creation of communities in which residents have very little chance to change their lives. communities that are deeply segregated by race, poor, i can transportation mobility, education institution, committees of place unimaginable strain on parents come on children, on teachers, on businesses. you heard richard presentation to you know that deeply entrenched segregation is characterized so many cities in the north and you know and i
just use a passive voice, i shouldn't, but these were delivered acts and policies, government sponsored policies. the landscape of the north was largely created by delivered at intentional segregation first to racial restrictive covenants, and outrageous commissions in federal housing policy which richard discussed affecting both public housing and the private market beginning in the 1930s and early by investments come as an investment which graded the suburbs and lucrative middle-class for white families. the investment so will describe a richard is one of the largest and most effective programs of the 20th century and it includes not only they can support provided to the creation of suburban homes, but it also includes the interstate highway system and the g.i. bill. these investment are worth trillions in today's economy. they not only created segregation, they created the white middle class and did so in such a way as to suggest that the creation of a white middle
class was kind of inevitable. the g.i. bill, the interstate highway system can become virtual integrated affordable housing in the suburbs was not advertised or explained as a government handout or as welfare or as affirmative action for white people. instead of those mesh of understood as appropriate and sound government policy, and it's what our government code young families after the sacrifices of world war ii. segregation was further reinforced by supreme court decision in the education context which first delayed desegregation in brown with all deliberate speed decision and by restricting regional desegregation solutions in cases like millikin versus bradley which ushered why julie could reliably fully integration by leaving the diversity of the city's. baltimore's history of housing segregation is well documented in books like not in my
neighborhood and blockbusting in baltimore. and by the litigation which the legal defense fund participated challenging segregated public housing in baltimore, thompson versus hud. few realize baltimore played a pivotal and pioneering role in introducing residential segregation to northern cities when the city council of baltimore passed the first municipal ordinance requiring residential segregation in 19 too big of the talk of the nation. people from cities all over the country called the city council to baltimore to find a how did you do it? send us the bill. send us the language. baltimore taught the rest of the country about how to create municipal ordinances requiring residential segregation. i want to talk what i think are too underappreciated elements that as you move forward, particularly in the affirmative fair housing kind of dicey to draw some attention to it and i do so because they are issues that are very current and baltimore today.
because baltimore's history of housing segregation provides a window into what i think of the underappreciated elements that contributed to and reinforce housing segregation and that you must have some particular that set of decisions are decisions affecting transportation. i've already talked about the creation of the interstate highway system without which the suburbs wha would not have been possible. that was a massive, massive transportation investment all over this country. and transportation decisions have too often been made to further and perpetuate segregation. they often are decisions in which policymakers acquiesce to committee resistance to desegregation. or they work in concert with segregated housing policies that ensure that will accept the opportunities to access the services, jobs and immunities of well supported and well resourced white communities.
that's what is so ironic that we watch the disturbing events unfold in baltimore earlier this year from the death of freddie gray, the unrest, a sad pathetic business corridor in which the easy tobacco mart is the norm and not the cvs, it's so ironic that this week that the governor of maryland decided unilaterally to abandon the plan to build the i admit and forcefully named redline, the rail line that would run east to west in baltimore city. and that had and still has the potential to unlock the rigid insularity of segregated communities like the west baltimore community in which freddie gray lived. the decision to abandon the redline is shaping of you probably never even heard about it. this was a project have been worked on a baltimore city for 10 years. i don't how many people here are fully with the baltimore city. very few. baltimore was described during the freddie gray unrest
incessantly on cnn as a major american city. and that, yes, it is a major american city that it has a baseball team and a football game and it has a sizable population, and it has a storied history, certainly has a storied civil rights issue. the birthplace of thurgood marshall. tremendous culture, food comics were there people. town i love very much, but it has something, it does not have something that most major american cities have, and that is a true functioning public transportation system. and the lack of that public transportation system, like the housing decision to richard talked about, is really not by accident. there were plans to create a functioning public education system in baltimore many times. in 1966 the original plan for baltimore involved a citywide subway system much like you have in d.c. but if you look at the
map a kind of looks like the map of metro. that never happened as white communities protested and expressed their concern about what this would mean in terms of the population moving throughout the system. and so the city settled for a seventh stop rail line that goes from downtown to johns hopkins and back again. it's not even a circle. it just goes up and goes back. the same thing happened in 1992 when the plan was make a great light rail system that would go through baltimore, out west baltimore and then up into baltimore county, and there again this system was greater in a way that it does to run through residential neighborhoods. it runs only through business districts. it went up into baltimore county business district. wind is that the dutch have another light rail stop like them if i were able to get a football team, we spent tens of
millions of dollars creating light rail stop for the stadium. but there was one community have refused to have a light rail stop. majority white committee called ruxton which said they did not want that element that may be on the public transportation in their beauty. so your writing a light rain and baltimore the light rail will stop about every three minutes and then suddenly it will just not stop for 15 minutes. that's as it passes of those communities that objected to having a transportation system stop in their community. transportation isn't a key in many ways to unlocking pashtun is the key -- like the ones you saw in west baltimore. it's how people get to jobs that exist not largely innocent of baltimore but on the edges of the committee in baltimore county and in howard county. they allow women like the month and one lioness on television,
toya graham became a stanched her son from the protes protestd allow her living in west baltimore to get to johns hopkins in east baltimore which actually does have jobs. affect johns hopkins is one of the rate institution action hires ex-offenders as well. but if you're an ex-offender annual event west baltimore your ability to get to the job at 7 a.m. means that you be standing at a bus stop waiting for an hour for those who would enter to the city to get you there on time. unless that seems like it's only an inconvenience if you try to west baltimore early in the morning, and you watch the bus stops, you see the moms who come from public housing and from low income housing standing at the bus stop the is a dark. they are there at 530 to get to the 7:00 shift at the hospital and then you have to ask yourself where are their children?
who will take into school? who will make sure they have something to eat with who will make sure that they have their homework? when they arrived in school without those things, what's the reaction of the teacher? what is your reaction when you hear about the children who arrive at the school without their homework and with nothing to eat? so the decision to simply abandon a transportation system that would bring people from one end of the city to the other end of the city to bring people to the jobs and the county from the city is a decision that reverberates through the lives of people in baltimore city. the decision of the cabinet to abandon the redline unless it is revisited and is overturned is wonderful profoundly implicate the obligation of baltimore city and baltimore county to a family further their housing for many years to come. a settlement in the thompson versus hud case i refer to
provide not just a families to move to communities of opportunity in the region and that means critically important and to by the way for wanting what you can do to support transformation -- transportation you can allocate additional funds to the program to allow families to move the committees of opportunity but i think we all recognize that as a corollary our obligation is also to make every community a community of opportunity. [applause] >> and so enforcing the obligation of local governments affirmatively further their housing you most taking attention to the role that transportation decisions have played at our continuing to play in locking and long-standing residential segregation. hud must work hand in hand with the department of transportation uncovering the devastating symbiotic reinforcement of housing segregation and regressive transportation decision-making in order to give
life to the -- but also to fully meet your obligations under title vi of the civil rights act and to ensure that federal funds to support programs that engage in discrimination. in the new fha will you talk about the removal of barriers that prevent people from accessing housing in areas of opportunity. you talk about access to housing outside of areas with high racial or ethnic concentration of low-income residents. how does that happen? in a city like baltimore where many people cannot afford to own cars? it happens by transportation decisions that were hand-in-hand witwith a local jurisdictions pn to of terminally further their housing. and to the extent we allow these decisions to be decoupled so that these transportation decision are made over here and then later on that the baltimore
county's plan or you look a baltimore city's plan for your essentially allowing these jurisdictions to grandfather in this segregation through these unreviewed transportation decisions. and so we need these to to come together. in addition to transportation there has to be this critical attention to regional solutions, and you know this already. you know the importance of regional solutions to segregation. judge a car but in the thompson v. hud case talked about doing which baltimore was being maintained as a segregated pool for the region's poor. and he said that simply cannot be allowed to stand. but this was in part made possible at some of the transportation decisions that i described to you. you heard vice president mondale this morning. unit in 1968 in talking about the fair housing act, he talked about promoting truly integrated
and balanced living patterns. those balanced living patterns cannot happen without social engineering. and here i want to push back against any negative connotation to that phrase. so i've regardless of as a descendent of charles hamilton houston, the brilliant lawyer indeed have -- mentor to thurgood marshall what's it is another social engineer, you are a parasite. [applause] that's our job. our job is a social engineer for good o our job is to social engineer for opportunity. our job is to social engineer for equality. those are noble goals, and lest we think we have a choice about whether we do this, i want to take you back to the supreme court the decision in brown v.
board of education and advocacy that my organization, the naacp legal defense fund engaged in in decades. you all come if you haven't read the decision, you know the decision and you know that in the decision the supreme court talked about part of segregation to african-american children. they talked about the way in which segregation sends a message to african-american children, but the state regards them as inferior, and that message becomes internalized. that may all be true but what i want to be good but is that when we litigated the case and we provided our brief and quickly with our brief an appendix on by 30 social scientist that talked about the harm of segregation for black children, that brief also included an extensive discussion about the heart of segregation to white children. and it talked about the way in which segregation can produce confusion, moral cynicism and a
sense of dislocation among white children that can result in ways in which they rationalize the incongruity they sit in their own society, the length of equality and justice that figure in the rhetoric of the public come for the committee to hear from their parents and the reality of what they see happening before them. and in that brief the social sciences forecast i believe some of what we are saying today. because at the end of the day when you watched that awful video walter scott running in the park in north charleston and being shot by the police officer, it's not just that the police officers pull up next to tamir rice in cleveland and chicken, a 12 year old boy. is that when his sister begins to cry and scream my brother, my brother, that they tackled or to
the ground and handcuffed her and put her in the back of a car. is that they say to the screaming mother come if you don't get quiet i will arrest you, too. you have to begin to wonder what manner of people are these? what has happened to them? and so it's my belief that a democracy of the society we consider no longer afford segregation. we cannot afford the distance between his that allows one to another in the humanity of the other. you and i do not have the luxury of sitting back 30 years from now asking these same questions that were in a position of power and authority influence one iota to lessen the distance between us. it was created by the way in which we live.
it allowed the outer ring that doesn't see the grieving mother, and we simply can't afford it anymore. so in case we are watching these events unfold over the last year were thinking at all about policing and it doesn't have to do with us, in case you're thinking what does hud have to do with freddie gray, it has everything to do with it. and so my hope today -- [applause] >> my hope today is really, usually to convince you and me, trust me, i do not throw stones, is to convict us as a society, as those were the engineers to recognize that we bear responsibility for that as well. it will not be resolved by the conviction of this or that police officer.
of course, there must be justice and accountability that if we do not begin to take seriously the harm that segregation is doing to the society, harm that was predicted in 1964 when we submitted these briefs, then we will be here 30 years from now and for years from now with your grandchildren and my grandchildren and our great grandchildren wondering what manner of people are these? they are the ones we allowed to be created by not affirmatively, aggressively recognizing the role we must play in ending segregation once and for all. thank you. [applause] >> thank you.
thank you, sherrilyn. really powerful remarks. naked, richard. wonderful remarks. you really -- thank you, richard. he really started this conference in a really emphatic way and i am now looking forward to hearing questions and answers from our audience. i think people probably have a lot want to say. i have a few question i'm going to ask our panel while you are thinking, formulating your questions. let me suggest that they could question contains three elements, your name, a brief statement, then followed by a question mark. [laughter] if you think of a question you'd like to ask, there's a microphone right here and you can come up and ask that question. so i'm going to ask sort of an affirmative question. are their communities that even
if you can think of who are doing it right, communities who are models for integration that can help lead the way for others? [laughter] >> the answer is i don't have that list available, but i think we'll get to be this way to take pieces from different ones. if i'm going to go back to the transportation system, for example, you know, there's obvious ones like new york, new york city and others what is the transportation system that allows for a certain to win the of the population of understood in terms of getting to jobs come in terms of imagining if i moved to the neighborhood could i still get to a church on sunday morning with yes, i actually put. i could take that train and a blessing to to quickly.
this out as i think and that i always think about policy in baltimore is what can you come every suggested. it's got it's a back to a tradition and there will not be any cookie-cutter but it's about drawing from different models what other pieces that you think can work and then putting them together for the local community that you're working with. i again and trying to beat the transportation horse because i think that, because i think too often we think they are separate. i think for the families who i have represented parents of lead poisoning to the baltimore in the early 1990s and i know how much the moms were unaffected by the fact ahead to leave the kids were really long periods of time because of the transportation system. i also know that they selected housing that was horrible often because of its proximity to work or to other family members over
to other caregivers where they could leave their children. it was kind of bad decisions about housing but really for reasons that made sense, and at the with affected just enough choices in how to navigate the infrastructure. and so even the housing decisions, even as i think that giving people vouchers and think move to a committee of opportunity, as we know from the case and it's one of the reasons why we put safeguards in with counseling which is doing a really good job, people make decisions based on the apparatus they have around them. they need to be able to make decisions, to have greater choices. said the reason i raise the transportation issue here at hud is because i want to emphasize the way in which transportation isolation limits the housing decisions -- back there isn't where you live is your choice. well, not exactly like that. there's a whole bunch of other
choices that they are on that ability to make that choice freely. that's one of the big because you all very correctly and apparently mentioned transportation, i think that's one of the threads that you really can pull and begin to look at places that are doing that effectively and pull that into the mix. >> great. you want to add anything, richard? okay. no one has approached our microphone yet. still trying to get the question mark on the end of the question. so frequently when we talk about residential desegregation today, people talk about the need to have affordable housing and low income housing in white areas. but, of course, many of our working-class neighborhoods many of our middle-class neighborhoods are also very segregated. and clearly in many of those
neighborhoods, comparable homes are of different value. curious what you all think about this problem and if you have any suggestions for how you think those issues should be addressed, or would you addressing different than the problems we look at in terms of segregation of affordable housing from other neighborhoo neighborhoods? >> well, i think you're absolutely right, and one of the things i think is troubling to me and we talked about affirmatively furthering the we don't put integration. we seem to be taught about how to get the lowest income families into middle-class neighborhoods. but we have a systematic problem of segregation in which, as you say, and middle-class and working-class families are also segregated. they are not helped by a policy
that prohibits a source of income discrimination or that requires low-income housing tax credit development of to be placed in the middle-class neighborhoods. that requires something more than nondiscrimination come as i said in my remarks before, and it requires policies that are so radical in terms of what the current conversation is that i think we need to think about about how to do it. one of the problems is that in addition to all of the housing programs i talked about before in which federal, state and local government systematically segregated the races, we also federal, state and local policies that systematically depress the incomes of african-americans so they can't afford to move to neighborhoods that they otherwise would've been able to move to worth a white. i just came across some research which i now explained -- were
they white or emotionally more about this but i'm always shocked about the extent to which the government at all levels was responsible for the race policies that we now live with. i recently discovered there's a systematic and still exists today, systematic attempt in baltimore, in chicago and other major cities in this country by county assessors to over a sense of properties in black neighborhoods and and assessed properties in white neighborhoods. you say what's wrong with that puts people at the homes that are more viable. was drawn is that if you over assess robberies in black neighborhoods, black people pay higher taxes, pay higher property taxes why people do for similar homes. in chicago, the most recent study-was in the 1970s, and it's a shame that people haven't done more recently. i'm trying to get it done, but
in chicago in the 1970s, the community with the lowest assessed value relative to market price at home was bridgeport, the neighborhood that mayor daley lived in and that was noted for its racist resistance to african-american homeowners. the community that was the most highly assessed relative to the market price of the homes in that community was woodlawn, and i'll african-american neighborhood. so families and woodlawn who were living in comparable homes to families in bridgeport were paying the lion's share of the property tax burden in the city of chicago. now, this is just one of many, many policies, you know, just go on one minute. i talk about in the 21st century. the national labor relations act set up a system where the federal government authorized
unions to be the exclusive bargaining agent for all workers in that facility. most, i talk about the suburbanization that took place in the 1940s, '50s and '60s and african-americans were excluded from the suburbanization the african-americans were excluded from the construction job the public a part of the middle-class in this country in that period. they are excluded from the construction jobs by unions that would -- were certified by the thought of as exclusive bargaining agent for those workers. that needs the remedy. i do know what the remedy would look like there is not a remedy, i'll say this is not a remedy that can be pursued within individual client who can show that he or she has less funds to do because his grandfather was excluded from the seniors. over living without different today. whether there is a difference of income of workers and their families and to send other children and grandchildren who
have similar skills but were excluded from the labor market that was a racial labor market. of housing discrimination that was government sponsored the labor market discrimination was government sponsored, all fed into the system we have today, and one of the consequences is that working and middle-class african-americans have lower incomes than similarly paul avoid working and middle-class whites. that's part of the whole housing problem as well because it means they then cannot afford to move to neighborhoods they would've been able to afford to move to get the end of parents and grandparents were of a different race. >> i can come and talk about the interrelated nature of all policy conversations would have been. we are having this robust conversation about policing at multiple levels, president task of, justice department and so forth. one of the major issues that is
discussed is whether or not police officer should be required to live in the community where they work. many people think that should happen, but when it doesn't happen you need more training and so forth. we invest in things all the time. it we decided that was a favored policy, then we could do what we do when they have favored policies which is we make investments that line up with those policies. one of the investment you can make, one of the incentives is around this issue of housing, what would you offer municipal workers who live in the city, particularly police and firemen put the same weight recruited g.i. bill's and other things. you could create incentives around housing that would encourage police officers to live in the city and you could build kind of mixed income housing in areas communities so you're actually encouraged a
kind of penetration and saturation of people who are supposed to protect the community an and the communities they're going to circuit it's just, you could just decide that you wanted to do it if we wanted to do that. but it is not disconnected. this is what i mean about recognizing the opportunities and pointed together. we are having a conversation about policing at about policing living in communities the words of the housing component to the conversation? is that the kind of thing if a municipality is putting forward their plan, right, isn't this a source of advocacy that committee folks couldn't engage in as they are developing a plan around what are we going to offer people to communicate some of the tensions with law enforcement and communities to foster law enforcement living in india part of the communities they serve? how can we serve an incentive to affirmatively further for housing to also meet the ends of the kind of community based
policing. >> i would like to add one thing i would like is a program that recruits and permits african-american police officers to live in levittown. [laughter] >> that's very specific, thank you. [applause] >> we have some questions your. >> i work in -- you have had my. thank you so much for the work you do and your remarks today. i really appreciated you guys beginning to flip the conversation about social engineering, and i really appreciate the broad approach that you both take a their house and i've heard you talk about policing, transportation, the history of housing segregation. and i was hoping you could kind of in the same vein i think that you all have continued the conversation, to talk about how we might continue to flip the
conversation to keep their housing in this broad perspective that i think a lot of times we try to approach thah that housing systemically antibodies enter related policy issues that you all are bringing up come we can't get pushed back to stay in your lane, that's not housing. so i think it's meaningful to hear about specifically talking about apply transportation and now that is related to housing. added an of y'all have any further insight on how education is related to housing, help employment is related to housing and really broadening the fair housing conversation. thank you. >> well, i'm not even sure what is it because i think you said it's a will. there is a question all of those things are connected. i suspect that you get told to stay in your lane, thus my remarks today, and i think part of it is on us. so we have to actually make it
uncomfortable for you to stay in your lane. our job is to really push you to make those kinds of connections. i also do think that if i can be perfectly blunt, i think you are not doing your job if you're not making those connections. at least the way i read title vi, the what i've read which all promulgated in the rule. that you're supposed the asking jurisdictions. you've got a checklist forget some things, i think we sometimes underestimate the power of the questions you ask. and the data that you collect, right? u.s.a. going to jurisdictions what you think is important. so, for example, i think it's actually shocking and stunning that the decision to enter this transportation line can be done as those are no implications for whole bunch of them housing and educate and so forth. i'm just not privy to some of
those conversations that some i know are just not happening. so yes, baltimore county has housing complaint is being handled right now. i think it's relevant to the decisions being made around transportation to some of it is the question should be asking as you do your review and to get engaged as you talk to different people, some of it is what we had to be done on the ground as we push and ask these questions and as we find them, absolutely. but some of it i think is what you are obligated to do in order to ensure that the funds were providing are not perpetuating discrimination and not perpetuating segregation. segregation does not exist as one category think the richard just described the it's all of the other elements that go with it, and if you are not paying attention to taxes and tax assessment and all these other pieces, in my view, you are not doing their job. i think there has to be a reimagining of what it means to
engage in this space. i think the supreme court's decision by taking the heat off of disparate impact that allow you to breathe, allows you to have the space to really robustly do your job and i think the circumstances we found in this country and of the lesser demands it. >> just make one brief statement about education and how that fits into this. i said earlier that i think unless the american people understand how we have created, we have created, our effort has created a system of segregation -- our government -- understanding of how aggressive we are to be doing it. we are continuing to miss a teacher the next generation about the history that i've described. some of your they talk about this before the i've examined american history textbooks that are currently used in high
schools across the country. the most well-known and widely used textbook american history textbook in high schools in the country has one passive voice sends in 1200 pages, one passive voice sends about segregation in the north and assess as follows from this is african-americans found themselves in segregated neighborhoods. [laughter] will be do, they woke up one or any we are in a segregated neighborhood. one of the problems with the presentation i made and transport makes up for it is i think that much of what needs to be done has to be done as a national, matter of national policy. it can't be considered at the local level. this is one thing that can be done at the local level. if i may say so i don't think that hud should consider any community is affirmatively furthering their housing if it's a schools are teaching this kind of nonsense to his children. [applause]
and when, when you are examining what a community is doing to affirmatively further their housing from one of the things she's redoing it is one of the doing to ensure that the curricula of their high schools and given the middle schools are addressing forthrightly the history of federal, state and local sponsored segregation the critic those communities as segregated once. >> great equipment number of questionable if we have one by e-mail, too. let's go first to the e-mail question which someone will read out and then we will come back to our line that has developed. >> this question is from kimberly. in addition to transportation, access to opportunity includes a good schools. across the country schools are predominantly -- enclosed in minority neighbors because they are under utilized or vinegar can you talk but connection during integration of housing
and education? >> i mean, there couldn't be a closer connection. that's -- let's be real. in 1948 when ldf, when the thurgood marshall, shelley versus kramer, a case involving racial restrictive covenants, i always read washington's letters a lot and they got all these congratulatory letters saying this is a wonderful and it was a much work into the cases and one of the cases was st. louis and he said yes, this is so important and, what right now i've got, and headed back down to texas to deal with this university of texas law school case, swept versus painter which was over the site in 1950s. ..