tv Panel Discussion on Social Change CSPAN November 1, 2015 5:30pm-6:21pm EST
education. you see people like charles murray and people like peter teel, you know, saying don't go to college, you're just wasting your money. so i say to social conservatives, you are absolutely right to be concerned about your children. i am a father of two 4-year-old little girlies, okay? i'm very concerned about the future in education as well. but if you keep focusing on things like gay marriage, okay? what's going to happen is the other side's going to bulldoze you. you better get with us, because you're the ones that are going to suffer, you're going to have less autonomy yourself if you don't go this way. there's another -- and, by the way, here's another interesting thing i think everyone can be behind, and now some republicans are making a big issue of this. we have a crony capitalist contest that we do at the atlas society. we just did our first one, we had winners in four categories. the irs, by the way, was the biggest government crony, not surprising there.
barack obama won for individual politician, i think warren buffett won for individual. but here's the point. nobody likes the crony system we're in, but that is the nature of a welfare state. a welfare state must degenerate either into an authoritarian system or a crony system in which the coin of the realm is not i produce goods and services to sell to individuals, it's i've got a contact who is going to give me a special privilege. that's why bernie sanders, by the way, is so popular right now. democrats see hillary as the queen of corruption. and at least sanders is kind of like a left-wing version of ron paul. he speaks his mind, he has ideals. i think they happen to be the wrong ideals, but i think that's one of the reasons why he's so attractive right now. >> host: some of the essays in "the republican party's civil war" include seizing the political high browned for moral intrisht -- ground for moral liberty, the fourth revolution. we have been talking with the editor and essayist of "the
republican party's civil war: will freedom win?" edward hedgens of the atlas society. -- hudgins of the atlas society. this is booktv on c-span2. >> next, a panel on social change from the tenth annual brooklyn book festival. >> my name is nick allard, i'm the president and dean of brooklyn law school. last night at the gala i was introduced as nick allred. so since this is a book festival, i'll take that as a clever pun or a compliment or both. [laughter] i think that was really apt, and i actually appreciated that introduction. brooklyn law school is enormously proud to once again be supporting and participating with the incredible signature
brooklyn book festival which has grown to be, in a very short period of time even though we're observing the tenth anniversary, to be the largest public, free book festival in the city of new york. and i suspect in the united states, if not the galaxy. [laughter] which reminds me, welcome to the best law school in brooklyn. finish. [laughter] finish. [applause] now, i suspect that most of you know that we're the only law school in brooklyn. but, you know, we're the best law school and the biggest, most vibrant borough in the big apple of the incredible empire state in the greatest nation on the planet, so we've got that going for us. we dream big here. in fact, in a recent dream alex trebek read me the final
jeopardy answer, and it was it's an international and national center of learning about the power of law to improve the world. well, in my dream i won by quickly scribbling down the winning question. why did brooklyn law school on observe in the same week the 80th anniversary of -- 800th anniversary of magna carta, the anniversary of the united states constitution, the 150th anniversary of the eastern district of new york and the tenth anniversary of brooklyn law school? it's because brooklyn law school, your law school, is a center about learning about the power of law. and, in fact, that question reveals why we do so much of what we're doing, trying to drive down the price and make legal education more accessible, improving the curriculum, doing everything we can to help launch our students and graduates in
meaningful careers so they can fulfill the public and private roles that lawyers fill in the service of others. the power of law is certainly the continuing thread through all the presentations that you'll hear here today in a remarkable parade of authors and commentators. no doubt they will touch on many vivid reminders that we have of how law can make a difference, whether it's the 70th anniversary of the united nations that we observed this week as well and the incorporation the -- into the charter for all mankind, the freedom of worship from want and from fear, or whether it's the seven decades since the liberation of the nazi death camps and the beginning of the nuremberg trials to given to hold the victims -- the villains
of the holocaust accountable for their heinous crimes. or the five decades since the civil rights act, the voting rights act and the march on selma which began to nudge this country closer to racial equality. but despite those milestones, our speakers and panelists and authors today are going to remind you all of how much work remains to be done, which is obvious when we just think about what's going on in the world around us. so i look forward to hearing from our speakers and learning from them and looking forward to discovering new books that'll be well worth reading. and i congratulate carolyn greer and liz koch for producing this
remarkable festival with all the other -- and in particular i'd like to acknowledge two leaders who have been just incredible in the story of brooklyn. first, marty mark witch, the former borough president, my friend, whose energy and vision single-handedly probably made more impact for the good in terms of the brooklyn renaissance than any other single source, and our new current borough president who will be here in an hour on a panel talking about the need to do better in terms of the present community difficulties that are pitting people against people and neighbors against protectors. he is a remarkable leader who has helped maintain and expand the preeminence of brooklyn in the city, the nation and the world. so it's a quite remarkable day, and i congratulate all of you in such large numbers for being here today. thank you very much. [applause]
>> thank you, my queens. [laughter] good morning, thank you for joining us. i am thrilled to be having this conversation. i would be having it at brunch, if we could. before we begin, i'd like to let you know that books from all of the authors are available for sale right in front of the building, and we'll be going directly from this conversation down stair toss the signing table. so if you like the conversation, we can continue it there. okay. so let me briefly introduce the writers. i hope many of you are familiar with their work. on, to my left we have pamela newkirk, she is an award-winning journalist whose articles have been published in numerous publications including "the new york times," "the washington post" and the nation. the book she'll be discussing this morning is "spectacle: the astonishing life of -- [inaudible] it's an amazing nonfiction look
at something that happened in new york in 1906. a young african man from the congo was kidnapped under very dubious circumstances by an american missionary, and he found himself put on display in the bronx zoo in 1906 next to an orangutan. and the story of how that happened, what are the implications and how are we still learning from that story. so, pamela new kirk, i'm so excited to talk to you. [applause] alexis coe is the author of alice and tier da forever -- feda forever. it's set in memphis, my hometown n1892 and tells the story of two young women at the beginning of a budding queer relationship, certainly unexpected and unorthodox for victorian tennessee. and when their relationship is thwarted by one of their families, one of young women kills her lover and attempts to
kill herself and is stopped, finds herself on trial in the midst of a spectacle that really illuminates sexism and classism in this time period. the accepts explanation for her crime was eroto mania because, surely, that's the only explanation for what happened, or perhaps her menstrual cycle. [laughter] we have a lot to talk about this morning, alexis. [applause] and finally, we have kiese laymon, the novel of how to slowly kill yourself and others in america. and the title of it really says so much about the enduring cost of racism, what it does to us when we have to live with it because as americans we all are. and long division is a coming-of-age story about time travel. we meet a teenager living in mississippi who finds a time
portal that takes him back and forth across america and many decades. so this is going to be a great conversation about history, all right? let's get to it. okay. so in all three of your books, we meet everyday people who are, you know, pulled, pushed or literally kidnaps into history. kidnapped into history. how were you pulled into these particular histories? >> ooh, man, that's a heck of a question. [laughter] so, you know, pulled in literally, pulled into the archives, right? i sought to uncover what had actually happened because the narrative around the story had been created by the very people who during his lifetime had exploited him. so bronx zoo in its narrative said that it's unlikely that he had ever been exhibited at all. "the new york times", which had covered the story every day
while it occurred, ten years later said that it was urban legend, that he had ever been exhibited in the zoo. and then the thing that really pulled me into it is that a book was written in 1992 by the explorer who brought this former missionary who brought him to the united states. and in that book by the grandson, it was purported to be the story of friendship between his grandfather and ota benga. i wanted to kind of sit with that. [laughter] and go through the archives to see if this notion of friendship could be corroborated. and guess what? [laughter] they were not friends, and none of you have friends like that, right? >> hopefully, oh, my gosh. >> so, yeah. >> i think that i am drawn towards history that focuses on
ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. and when i found alice and freed da, it was buried in this dense academic text in grad school. but as i start to research the newspapers and get closer to them, the headlines were astounding. they were written in 1892 to about 1902, and yet the words that they were using in the argument could have been contemporary. i found this in 2007. and still from opponents of same-sex marriage we heard the same terms, we heard unnatural, pointless. so that really attracted me. it seemed darkly funny as i went on because their agendas were on parade, the way that they would talk about women who were allowed into the courtroom for the first time or if there was a crowd of people outside the courthouse, all of them wanting
to see something sensational. it was, there were groups that were singled out, people of color. someone was thrown off the to the courtroom -- out of the courtroom for looking like a mexican. >> it's worth mentioning the judge that presides over this trial is a member of the kkk. >> the founder. >> the founder. of course. >> who had keys to the jail, he presided over the cases. and that's the only thing when i looked over the newspapers which clearly were the center of all of this, i found that the judge had worked at one of them, so had the defense. everyone had their hands in it, so to unravel how this happened was really important to me. i felt almost -- [inaudible] >> thank you all for coming out today. you know, my grandmother raised me, and she had a lot of important sayings growing up. and one of the most important sayings besides, lord, have mercy -- [laughter] was the saying that, you know, you are the past, and we are the
past, and we are the future. she used to bring women over to the house to do something called home mission, and for a lot of times i could be in there with them while they were reckoning, but often she would make me go out on the porch when it got too hot. and as i sat out on the porch, i listened to them hemming and humming and often crying. and i also started to look across the street into the woods, and i imagined three or four young black kids coming out of the ground in the woods across the street from where we lived and a few of my other friends in my neighborhood said they saw the same people. so i started writing this book that became long division. and how to kill yourself and others in america came about really because i was tired of being lied to by the nation, i was tired of lying to people i really cared about, and i finally really believed and understood that you cannot transform from point a to point
b unless you're honest about point a. and what my grandma's -- with my grandma's lesson, i started writing some essays to my friends and family. and that became how to kill yourself and others in america. >> wow. in all of your work, particularly in these books, media, journalism, it's an important part of the narrative, you know? in one of your essays you're talking about when you're writing writing about the incredibly racist experiences you're having at the university you were a member of and, you know, the official record, the academic record of what's happening they're trying to kind of erase, you know, and talk down very similar to what you were talking about. and throughout the book it's amazing to see how you record how "the new york times" kind of wavers and goes back and forth on the narrative. is this brutal, is this exploitation? oh, he seems to be enjoying it, he was playing to rang tan, they're -- with the orangutan,
they're friends. can you talk about interrogating and really grappling with the official record of histories when you're trying to get to the heart of the matter? >> well, it's really interesting because it's not for "the new york times" -- if not for "the new york times" and it's daily coverage of this episode, if not for all of the newspapers that covered it not just in new york city, but around the country and throughout europe, if not for those accounts, i would not be able to knit together this story. so even, you know, when "the new york times" early in the coverage basically said, like, why would anyone protest this, he's basically subhuman, like, we can learn a lot from having him in a cage, if not in for "te new york times" writing those editorials, i would not really have a sense of the times, right? because while that seems shocking to us now that the new york time toes would hold that view, that was -- times would
hold that view, that was also a reflexion of the prevailing attitudes around race in 1906. so, yeah. so i wrestled with the archives, but i also needed those accounts to put together the story because they revealed so much about, you know, just the everyday thoughts of people during that time. so between the newspaper articles and the letters that were in the archives, there were so to luminous letters written by zoo officials, and they're going back and forth of how they're dealing with ota benga. so i was able to contrast the behind-the-scenes letters with the public record. so what they would say on the record was that, you know, he was happy there, he wanted to be there. and what was happening behind the scenes is he's battling, he's resisting captivity, he's an unruly savage.
>> i mean, to give you an indication of the spectacle, toward the end of his tenure -- [laughter] >> his stay, my god. >> i love that. so high-minded. >> we can decode that later -- [laughter] ota benga is visibly angry and frustrated and is literally running around the bronx zoo and is being chased by thousands of spectators. >> tripping him, kicking him -- >> surreal, yeah. >> yeah. >> it was amazing to get that back and forth. because meanwhile everyone's saying, oh, it's great. he's enjoying it. >> and, meanwhile, he's the unruly savage and the new yorkers at the zoo and the people caging him were civilized. >> what do you think about this? >> i think i was fortunate in some ways to be researching a time that coincided with the rise of yellow journalism, because people would write ads. and this is also the first time that memphis had really garnered
attention on the national stage. and so the influx of reporters from different, from "the new york times" to at the time the san francisco chronicle was the san francisco call, to see them descend on the city and to see the city so accommodate them that a inquestion sayings of lunacy, not murder, that could have probably happened in a couple weeks took six months because they wanted to expand the courtroom, and they wanted the city to to benefit off tourism. so i think that it also, and this is true with newspaper articles and archives which are really interesting to reconcile, these pieces of -- these materials aren't adjacent to history, they are history. in order for us to get as close as possible, we need to understand the original voices and that's just another way of figuring out out. but also to see where people disagree, how their, how their world view's informed by their
geographical location. i think that's really so important because it's the author, it's the newspaper, it's so different than just reading someone's journal. >> sure. >> yeah. again, i'm doing something a little bit different than what you all are doing. so when i was thinking about the dominant record, you know, james baldwin, who was -- i'm from mississippi. james baldwin, who was born somewhere around here -- [laughter] somewhere. [laughter] said that -- i think it's important that, you know, he's born in new york, he's born in harlem, and he says i'm going to become a writer, god, satan and mississippi notwithstanding. and so i think the record that i had to con front reckoned -- confront, reckon with, accept to a degree was this understanding that the world and definitely
parts of the nation have that little black boys and little black girls from mississippi are not supposed to survive. and so i think in reckoning with the fact that not only are we, not only should we survive in spite of what the nation and our state has done to us, that we should accept really our greatness and majesty and the fact that we do come from ida b. wells and the richard wrights of the world. so for me, it was reckoning, pushing back against this notion that not only should you not, should you not be write, but wherever you are, you should be happy, and you shouldn't push against dominant norms and what not. so for me to create a book, i had to say i'm writing this book because i'm from mississippi, not in spite of being from mississippi. >> beautiful. beautiful. >> that is beautiful. >> one of my favorite actors and perhaps my writing candidate for 2016, viola davis.
[laughter] said in an interview, i believe it was with charlie rose, that whenever she accepts a role, the first thing she does is look for the traps. what are the mistakes i could make in taking on rose in a august wilson -- [inaudible] when you realized, okay, i have the book, this is the beginning of a journey which is an investment that often is years, likely many years with all of the research you've been doing, what were some of the traps either anticipated or unanticipated that you had to deal with during the writing process? >> we can call it a trap, or we can call it sheer terror. [laughter] the terror stemmed from the fact that ota benga had no papers, right? so i can go into all these archives and find the records of, you know, all of the eminent men of new york city and around the country, and there was no way to get to his voice x. so that -- and so that was a source
of great angst, and at some point i even wondered if i could do it. and then after digging for years, i was able to actually find ota benga, his voice and his spirit in the records of the people who held him. there he was being described and talked about and talking back, and, you know, if you lean in, you know, you can hear him, you can feel his resistance, you could -- so what began as something that was very intimidating because, you know, when you write about oppressed people, marginalized people, you have to find different ways to get at their voices. because they are rendered
voiceless, without agency, right? and the people who have power are the ones who get to define them. so finding a way to define, to allow ota benga to allow me to find him was really challenging. >> i think that's true with any marginalized group. their around -- archives, their papers, conversations with them are not considered important, so they're not usually collected. so with alice and frieda, i had correspondence which is, you know, for women's historian an embarrassment of riches. [laughter] and as soon as alice goes into jail, she goes dark. and she goes on the stand. anything that comes through her lawyer, by that time i knew her quite well. i read her letters hundreds of times, so i could tell clearly what wasn't her voice or someone leaning into her. and then i have to do the same
thing with the archival resources. you have to be really creative so it's not just newspaper articles. you have to look for a mention of these people. and one else who might have been in the area. >> exactly. >> you have to create all these situations in which intersectionalty feels like you're not just grasping at something and trying to make connections, but is actually there. and for me, that was one of the riskiest things was the chapter in which i brought together the chapter of ida b. wells and alice and frieda, but it felt really necessary. in no other circumstances would a white woman be in a small jail run by the founder of the kkk with three men who were arrested for economically threatening a white business that opened up in a densely-black neighborhood. and it was important to bring these stories together because of the way they were written about. in newspapers they publicly called for her lynching because of something she had written. but nobody wanted to see alice,
a confessed murder rest with victims -- murderess, hanged for her crimes. so it's figuring out how to make these connections, feeling comfortable, but also giving in to the fact that you'll never know. memoirs are inherently flawed because they are driven by perspective, and it's the same when you're a historian. >> exactly. >> you hope to do the best you can, and by presenting, actually, these views that, you know, make your skin, you know, like that is -- >> right. >> -- a way to write in everyone's opinion. and sometimes you feel like you just have to present it. >> yeah. and there was one chapter where, you know, it's situated at the zoo, and all the spectators and what's going on, and there's, there are only four words from o, the a a -- ota benga, and the words are me no like america.
and it said everything, right? >> it screams on the page. >> yeah. >> specifically my question for you, i often joke with friends that, obviously, white people are the only ones who want to time travel -- [laughter] and probably like only maybe straight white men, because i don't know about you, but for the rest of us, the idea of going back in time, i'm like, i'm good. i'm great here. [laughter] let's actually fast forward maybe. or not, i don't know. it's hard to tell. [laughter] so, you know, so i feel like time travel itself, it's a trap. what was it like -- [laughter] what was it like, you know, writing, you know, a wonderfully -- it's such a journey. you know, time travel for young black kids? >> that's a great question. [laughter] i think that's a great question because i think the four young black kids, the important part of that question and that statement, and i want to tie that question into a question that you asked earlier, the
hardest part for me other than waking up every day and confronting a blank page and having to will yourself through it was pushing back against really new york editors who told me that that audience didn't exist and that there was nobody who'd want to read, you know, a book about a book about a book with two narrators and a young black girl who calls herself an i lend sis -- e lip cease. ..
i wanted to time travel. [laughter] so kind of the last question before the q-and-a, when my book debuted last fall it has to do with violence on the black body. i was at a book party and i stood up to read and i couldn't ignore the fact that people were marching into was happening right then trying to keep up with what was happening. the books resonate. what has it been like writing
about this particular american moment? >> i'm writing about an episode that occurred in 1906 when it was clear that the black lights didn't matter. the black lives matter movement at this time was the niagara movement that had happened just before and marked a new low of life in america. and here we are all these years later where many are looking at it as a sort of metaphor for black life today. this young innocent sweet boy that was kidnapped and captured and brought to this country and put in a cage. and i think the resonance is
really powerful. >> i think it's wonderful that the panelists have books that speak to >> they seemed to have found their way. and everyone plays it safe. when i found the book that i was a graduate student and i wasn't an author and so i tried to turn people in publishing on to it but nobody was going to be interested in that so i thought when the book came out it would be great if some of it sold so it wasn't in the entire disaster that some of the things would be inexplicable so i thought that same-sex marriage shortly i would be able to talk about this being addressed for the rest of my life for this book tour that
same-sex marriage was illegal and the book came out and i wasn't able to say that. they think that this will so and draw the crowds into movie theaters. [laughter] >> after my book came out i thought that there wasn't anything more joyful than having somebody that inspired your book in a situation there was an author in mississippi that was incredible to say my book
inspired her and when i read that i thought that's crazy. and i did the tears and all that. [laughter] earlier this year we got a call from some of the most active organizers in the liberation movement and some of the active organizers in the black lives matter movement. and when up when i was talking to one of the dudes from the ferguson movement he said that the book spoke to me and then he settled on on for a second and he came back and said i'm trying to get some new tear gas masks.
i was just grateful. i love what happened in this moment is that authors and activists sometimes are the same person and workers and writers are the same people and i just think we have these folks that are actually listening and we are created in this e-echo that is reverberating and pushing back against all kinds of homogenized power on the heels of the community. so i'm just really happy about that. >> beautifully said. >> now we have ten minutes. >> ten minutes for questions. questions, please. there are cameras. don't make me in various human front of your mom. she's probably watching.
so marginalized can go on twitter and words and ideas can spread around the world so yes it is very different in that way but all of us what we do would we do if he would do no matter so it's just another way to express your ideas but the idea it would be the same whether i was writing on a tablet hundreds of years ago publishing newspapers. it doesn't change it for me but for the audience, it does. >> i think it lessens the power of gatekeepers at the same but at the same time, i think these
gatekeepers of wealth and capital would seem like democratic platforms. >> it's the turn-of-the-century and it's been such a fascinating moment for american journalism, very amorphous. >> but i was struck by something she said of a yellow journalism that we typically associate with people who came to its demise yellow journalism and get the newspaper the only one in new york city that objected to what it called a disgraceful and all the other newspapers were the ones that supported it, so it
makes me wonder about the labels that were used in history has a way of just perpetuating negatives that may not even be true. >> it sounds like each of you went in with a sense of passion and purpose in the discovery and openness and i would love to hear about what were some of the things that surprised you most in the journey of writing. >> what surprised me most, i went into it already knowing it was the shocking thing that happened, so i knew that was already coming. but what really surprised me was the extent to which the entire episode had been sanitized by elite custodians about history
and how so much effort had been put into totally re-creating a story that's been a -- that took hold and so all the people that have exploited or supported the exploitation dot to write a fantastic fiction that circulated around the world and for me that was simply stunning. and i'm a pretty skeptical journalist, but i was really surprised by the evidence of so much deception. >> he is able to write himself not just a assault of of sold skills but he makes himself the hero.
[inaudible] [laughter] >> you know what's going to happen but you also don't know what's going to happen and i think the question i didn't resolve until the book came out is why don't we know about their names? in 1892 the nation was obsessed with them for half a year and i kept wondering why. in the medical journals i could see their legacy and i they knew when they had entered the conversation which is still 40 years away from coming to america and then i realized after that two days after he went into the asylum they took an act to her father and stepmother and everyone got right on the train headed to
massachusetts and the story was preferable. how much better for the collective memory to think about a well-to-do woman who seemed to fit within the conceptions of the values and someone had found us as palatable. >> i discovered a lot of that in the process i was just amazed at how complicit new york publishing was coming and miseducated people and pushing
potential readers out of reading i should have known that i didn't. >> it's like the same thing. >> just how far it goes. also one of you mentioned complicity. the wider web of complicity by so many eminent new yorkers. in a story that had been told about the exhibition he might be one way or does he keep her -- zookeeper but then it's like the mayor that wouldn't intervene and all of the archive society was behind it and tens of thousands of new yorkers in the order went to the field. it was a sensation. i was surprised by the pool light of complicit their
meanings for me. >> the idea of injustice because it's everywhere and when you look at the people who came to see him when you look at the zoo keeper come everyone is involved. >> exactly. we have about five minutes left so the next three questions maybe we can direct them to one specific person. >> all of the writing about the resistance to change and the impact of the media and people generally resist change. and if you look at how the media is shaping what's going on at the colleges today, there is a resistance, so my question is what has been the public response to telling the story in 2015, anyone?
>> that is a wonderful question. for me personally i think the response has been i met tons and tons of people across the country and in the world. also when you do this kind of work you just have to tell your self [inaudible] [laughter] >> that's all i have to say. >> thank you so much for being here. the question i have is i hear from a lot of writers of color and writers about a fear of frustration with the stories of the hotels becoming the single stories from the marginalized.
is that something that was part of the internal conversation when you were writing the books and if so did you move to address that? >> believe that people latch into the story and they really need identification. so allison is in the study section referred to as lesbians. i don't think so. it's an argument i have long given up that it is an activist was it clawed but influencing the newspapers, was she as the new psychiatrist and unhinged person that was waiting for the right trigger? i don't know but she also seemed maniacal and didn't seem to love anyone else and she was engaged
to many people. so i think that the powerful expectation is to see that. it's conflicting. you want people to embrace in something and so many times people say something about your work that isn't exactly true but it's close enough and so it doesn't matter. what really matters here. >> the yellow journalism and the way the media perpetuated a lot of this stuff, yet during the civil rights movement for media was so the media was so critical to spreading the outrage but yet here we are back again almost full circle to the yellow journalism. and what you read you use fine examples of those that took back the power and media said some groundwork for how they helped the civil rights movement and how that could work now. >> i think for me -- [inaudible]
[laughter] i think what happens is we often look at the media is the creator of the attitude that it's reflecting and so with my book what it is that kind of pinpointed the change of the idea in the media about dave and recorded on so in 1906 if you went to an insightful pdf and african would be described as someone midway, so if you are thinking about the media portrayal, these ideas were not created in newsrooms they were embedded in the science and scholarship into the history
book and then it's the popular culture that then runs away with it but it starts at harvard and columbia and yale and princeton and the high minded highly educated people were creating this fiction of african life was into those were the ideas that we are still wrestling with and the people point to the media that we really need to look away from the media to the source. so if it was coming around and reflecting that more enlightened attitude about the human rights of african people in this
country. as a way to focus a lot of attention on the media and i will continue to but it behooves us to look more closely at where those ideas are coming from to begin with. so we need sweeney took the textbooks for children reading the source of the problem. it's the mirror of the power. >> we don't have any. >> thank you for your wonderful questions. apostasy mac please buy their books and ge