tv Book Discussion on Islamic State CSPAN November 21, 2015 11:00pm-12:01am EST
business. it is self sufficient which is unlike al qaeda. second thing, they are also self-sufficient military wise. they don't need people to send them arms. when i say self-sufficient that means they've managed to put their hands on a warehouse and also they've put their hands on very sophisticated american arms
when they defeated the iraqi army. they left huge sophisticated arms behind. so they are self sufficient military wise and financially. the other way they are different, they are not a gift to anyone. they have their own sovereign state which is bigger than britain. there they are very self-sufficient and very independent. so those are three major
characteristics that differentiate from al qaeda. the other one is social media. they are not dependent on the mainstream media. they can communicate with their people through the internet very quickly with out any interviewed kitchen or anyone in the middle of this process. so that's why it is actually very sophisticated. as we talk more about this, it is not dependent on one man. it is not a one-man show. it is the centralized leadership. osama bin laden used a lot of publicity. we would love to see himself or see himself on nbc and cbs. but when it comes to big daddy
we've only seen him once on the screen and we haven't seen him again. that also differentiates al qaeda from the islamic state. it seems remarkable that whenever a leader or a commander is eliminated, there is another commander to take place. they seem to be backed up in the leadership in a way that they were not in al qaeda. they are decentralized. >> yes, that's what i mean, it is not a one-man show. there is a collective leadership. he is not actually the man who is running the show.
those people are very, very experienced people. otherwise they wouldn't be able to run those facilities. the structure of the state, they have a police force, they have administration, mortar and health. i don't believe those are running the state. so they managed to run this perfectly well until now. actually if you look at it, it is more stable and more secure than the other states around them.
there is more law and order that's why actually those people are running the store show. >> we tend to forget that now. we tend to forget that at the very beginning, former officers in the iraqi army and former senior members were an important part of the islamic state preliminary organization in iraq. are any of those people still around? are there still former iraqi officers in leading position? >> yes, but before we go into detail, if you want to understand islamic states, there are about six or seven keywords. the first one is humiliation. the people believe they have been humiliated by their country and their government and by
outside. frustration, we have 70 million unemployed people. we have 60% of our population under the age of 27. so you have millions of young people without any future so frustration is very important. underestimation, the problem is, the outside world always underestimates these kind of organizations. when i say that, they're not paying attention that they are growing and getting stronger and stronger. nobody is paying attention. the last is good government. we don't have good government in the middle east. it's dictatorship, corrupt government, we don't have that
the marker see attitude. so the lack of government is extremely important. the problem we are facing in the middle east we have seen that in iraq and libya. we have seen it in yemen. the foreign intervention, they have plan a but they don't have plan b. now you have a country that is just under complete sectarian
life. you create a vacuum. who is going to change that. the last thing which is extremely important is the social media. now the middle east is controlled by the social media with internet and facebook. they are playing to the hands of the terrorist organization and of the young frustrated people. so it's extremely important to understand. i believe the biggest mistake was when the american invaded and occupied iraq.
the problem is there are millions of them humiliated and they have nothing else to do. so these are the first seeds of the islamic state as we see it. >> one of the important things used show in your book is how the islamic state has been sophisticated in choosing leaders for different parts and different territories that the state rules. the islamic state has appointed iraqis to be the governors of iraqi territories and syrians to be the governors of the syrian territory. now as time goes by, fighters have flocked to the organization from many different parts of the world. do you think there are tensions
so despite that, i believe they will write to keep it united as long as you can and this is the case for the time being. >> you to vote space in your book do something that appeared online under the title the management of savagery. this might possibly have been written by an objection perhaps close to the islamic group. as i read your summary, the phase of savagery seems to lie somewhere between expelling non- muslims from the area, from the particular territory and the phase of consolidating adjust,
how is it that every day brutality like we see in this islamic state might prepare the ground? >> both a very good question. savagery is the menu of the islamic state. when we wrote this manual or the bible, there was a movement in 2003 that was concentrated on that. we have to create anarchy and this is our time to take over.
he means that we should go and attack society and destabilize it. when we create the anarchy, it is the best environment for us. look at what is happening now in france, for example. why do they use this? they use it for two reasons. they want to have a a state of terrorism and a state of fear. that is what is happening. the second thing, they use
savagery as a means to recruit the maximum of fighters all over the world because they want to send a message. they want to say we are very strong and we can terrorize those people who are against us and to our nonbelievers and non- muslim. you could see when they sent eight men to paris. this is the message they would like to convey. also the other point is to restore the economy, they killed
40 tourists in tunisia. the income is now more than $70 billion. so in order to inflict a lot of damage, again they can manage to affect tourism. they know what they are doing. they organize their acts very well. >> it has become a hotly debated question, at least here in the united states to what extent the islamic state miser's the
doctrines of islam. is there anything islamic? is there anything important from the religion that is part of the ideological of this group. if you go to the literature of the islamic state, you will find that it is a revival of this collar mohammed he called it the peer ten islam. that's why the saudi government and it became a burden on the shoulder so the people of the islamic state are repeating the
this kind of ideology that is deeply rooted. >> your book makes a very strong case for that. as i was reading your book, book, it seemed to me that there are also seem to be influences of the liberation party. begins in palestine in the early 20th century. do you see any evidence of that kind of thinking as well? >> yes, definitely. the ideology is a peaceful one. they actually adopt military action but when it comes to the
islamic state, there has to be some ideology there or some teaching there, but their ideology is to actually adopt violence. they massacred thousands and thousands of people. so their ideology. [inaudible] they are very vicious, very violent, very brutal and they are terrorizing people in one way or another. >> your book certainly does show the connection between saudi
arabia and the islamic state. at one point in the book, you say part of this connection comes from the fact that the rules of saudi arabia consider themselves to be the leaders of all muslims. i must say, i was surprised by that. - what grounds do you have for saying that the leaders of saudi arabia think they are the leaders of muslims? >> what they think about themselves is completely different from how them muslim worry people view him. he is trying to give himself some sort of islamic character or image in order to differentiate himself from the
actions in yemen and also the division that is taking place so the net cannot say we are the leader. >> it was my impression that saudi arabia was generally opposed and was arrival of them in egypt and syria. do you see it that way quest might. >> it used to be that way but now if you look at this, there is a sunni triangle.
to ignore them. they are going back to them and adopting them in yemen in iraq and syria. >> i have one more question, but i know the audiences interested in posing questions as well. perhaps they can think about the questions and perhaps prepare to come to the microphone as i ask you one more thing. i can't resist, since i'm able to speak with you. you remark at one point in the world that the islamic state is engaged in a campaign of expansion. i think one might argue instead that the movement is trying to protect the muslim community from attack and to protect the muslim community from interference and intervention from the outside powers. what would you say about that?
>> their doctrine and ideology is different. when it comes to the islamic state, their major goal is to grab land and expand. that is what is happening. they have actually managed to caption under capture areas. it's symbolic and meaningful for them. it used to be the summer resort so the symbolism is extremely important for them.>÷
[inaudible] it is extremely important for them to have a look at history and try to apply it. [inaudible] i believe now, witnessing what is happening in paris, it seems that there is a shift of priorities. this change is extremely important. it's as if there are now al qaeda doctrine together. they were against al qaeda and
now. [inaudible] maybe they decided is the time also to use terrorism and it seems that it is a huge turning strategic to them for their legacy and their literature and their doctrines. >> president barack obama has come under a grid good deal of criticism for making that very remark. but i generally thought the president was right. do you think the islamic state had broadly been contained just before this operation? >> yes i believe there is some sort of containment because in europe now they are not
expanding, but we have to remember it is only two years so recently they lost sin jar so the loss of those two areas is a blow to the islamic state. maybe this is why they decided to send them to the west, to paris in particular. so there will be questions from the audience and i've been re- asked to repeat the questions
for the purpose of skype. >> first of all, thank you very much for speaking. this is exceedingly worthwhile. >> can you hear that?? >> no, i can't. >> i'll try to repeat it. >> first just think him very much. he is exceedingly well to listen to. >> i want to focus on iran and the middle east. saudi arabia for the last 55 years or so has been a very close ally of the united states. primarily based on our need for oil. as i look at saudi arabia, and its policies and what it's been doing in the middle east, i do not see a friend in the saudi peninsula. i see someone who has been undermining many of our objectives in the middle east and it concerns me deeply. i would like his comments. >> thank you.
>> saudi arabia has strong connections of strategies with the united states in economics. for some americans, saudi arabia does not look like much of a friend of the united states. do you think they are still partnered? >> i believe it's very shaky at the time, but the question is fair and reasonable. saudi arabia used the united states for its own purposes. the strategy of saudi arabia had very strong doctrine which is to weaken everybody around them. they want the america and the west to try to defeat them. when saddam hussein emerged, they wanted the americans to
remove him for power and they succeeded in using the u.s. as their own police. to use their financial muscle and oil muscle to remove it off he from power succeeded to do so. but now i believe there is a a change of the american strategy. they realize that they cannot fight the war and cannot be the guard dogs of saudi arabia. i believe president obama was aware of this and said we cannot protect you from iran but the major danger that you are facing
is that you have to look at your own people who are unemployed and frustrated and want to have their sharing power and participate in the future. i believe there is now some sort of awareness in the united states. saudi arabia wanted american government to fight the islamist state in iraq and syria. they want boots on the ground but they said no we cannot do it. look what has happened to us. i believe he is correct this time that they are not putting troops on the ground. >> there is rumors that the ruler is ill.
>> he told me the same story. they're talking about the past and not about the president. he told me two years ago and i was really surprised. i asked other people and some of them said yes and some said no. because he is actually in saudi arabia, he used to be a patient, and not actually -- >> but when you look at the rulers now, his son has taken over and he is young. he is not highly debated in the
prominent university. he could actually create a legacy in order to promote himself as a future king. this has created resentment among other grandchildren. so this is a problem, yes. there are people who are actually scared of the future of the royal family. >> again, i would like to thank you very much for your comments, especially the comparison of al qaeda with basically in immature one-man show as opposed to a well organized isis and that is something we don't really understand. certainly when you have any
enemy to deal with, you need to understand them very well. so my first comment is to thank you for that. now, when we compare world war one and world war ii, they have very well organized operations. they pulled off pearl harbor. it was very well organized, but we beat them. my question is, every government , as we try to understand isys, how can we defeat them. >> there have been powerful adversaries of the united states in the past like japan in germany in the 1930s, very well organized and very strong administration, but those entities were defeated. every organization has a a weakness or vulnerability. do you see any vulnerabilities
in the islamic state? >> you will find more than 100 countries and they understand the danger. you have the paradox in contradiction. for the first time since the second world war, we have the america and russia working together to defeat the islamic state. also, the middle east is working together to remove the islamic state. that's never happened. so you can see they are launching a war against the islamic state.
so it is defeasible. i cannot say it is not defeasible. the problem is what will happen after you defeat them? they had plan a but they never had plan b. you say okay we want to bash his head and remove him from power, whoever he is. but when it comes to the morning after, this is the biggest question, that's what happened in afghanistan. we remove the communist, but they never had a plan. how to rule against them. they invaded against them but they never created statement because the.
[inaudible] do we have any plan after victory? nobody can tell about the future of iraq. how can we create existence between the sunni and that she ought?shiite. >> there is a question about internal vulnerabilities. you see anything inside that might weaken the organization? >> we cannot separate the internal from the external in terms of mobility.
[inaudible] have a lack of good government. the people are not involved, this is the problem, you have automatic regime there. they are driving the people from having a say on their future. [inaudible] this is the most important thing. yes we can defeat the islamic state. it is not undefeatable. but the problem is, we have to have a plan.
as i mentioned, it is the most secure state in the whole of the middle east. the bladder moving to the west. people are immigrating to the west. we we have to set up a good example for the people so they can see that we have this model for you. it's a model of coexistence and model of prosperity and human rights and independence. we have to actually say look, we are working for a long-term future. we are not going to repeat our mistake in iraq and libya.
establish institutions and libya? why did it not tried to reform them? okay the united states is the most advanced country in the world. it's the biggest empire. it's the strongest empire in our history. okay they invaded iraq. why did they not bring sectarian to iraq? they are a multicultural country. they need help establishing a quality. how do you make people coexist with each other?? we did not apply the same rules to iraq and this is why we have a problem in iraq and syria. >> thank you sir. >> yes another question please. my question was, does he have any further comments to make
about the role of iran. and just to follow-up on what he was saying, some say the middle east is not ready for democracy and we can't force it there. >> so when we think about the future of the region, after the islamic state, scholars disagree about whether liberal democracy democracy is possible in this part of the world. do you think liberal democracy with constitutions and elections and freedom of the press as possible in the arab countries? >> it's possible, but the problem is we don't have the culture of liberalism or the culture of democracy in our part of the world. you cannot actually import democracy and say to the middle eastern people you have to adopt it. the problem is we have to prepare the ground for democracy. unfortunately, the west never
did. they were supporting regimes for the last 60 or 70 years in the middle east under the name of stability. we should encourage codes extends coexistence. most of the countries in the middle east, which are facing instability, if the people coexist this is the irony. for example, syria, iraq, libya, yemen, egypt, these countries -- under a so-called arab spring, many people believe that is the
introduction of the west. there's no question about that. the societies used to live together. we need to actually explain coexistence. this has been the problem of marginalization is that central elements because the sunni were marginalized because of their american occupation. those people, they had a theory. [inaudible]
we have to look at that. why we destroyed that subset of coexistence in the middle east. >> there was a moment of liberal democracy across the arab world with elections in egypt in iraq and syria and libya. during that during that moment, the parties were tied to westerners. they were tied to outside powers and that gave a bad name and a bad reputation to liberating institutions. >> they were looking at a long-term solution and stability. they introduced democracy. they educated the people, how to
communicate, how to coexist and how to go to a political process where the ballot box will decide the votes. this is the paradox. this is why it does not work properly. wyatt does not work in rock. wyatt is struggling to work and libya. this is a problem. when i say there is no plan b, that is what i need. we need to educate people. we need to look for long-term strategies, not just the short term.
you would haveae 300 people knocking on your door if you open the doors because they believe america is an example for prosperity and coexistence. >> thank you. i think we can have two more questions if we're lucky. >> my question is, is there going to be up plan b, don't you think the plan b has to come from the islamic world rather than from the west? do you see any signs of that happening? >> so if there is a plan b with
syria or lebanon or yemen, with that plan be better come from the arab world or some other part of the world? >> you cannot keep living like that. you have to actually put this money in your surrounding andógn your neighborhood. they cannot be the poorest country in the world and then adjacent to the richest country in the world. you cannot have that. they are starving in yemen and egypt and jordan. this is wrong.
they need to work together. look at what has happened in northern ireland. they wanted some sort of coexistence. when the economy collapsed to actually create prosperity and jobs for the people. there was a war between the protestants in the catholic. we need this in the middle east. once the people find a job and try to coexist, they will keep this, but if they are humiliated or marginalized, there will be instability. we have a lot of money there in that part of the world. it should be spent by wise guys of the region to make it much
bigger and in this case. [inaudible] >> next question please. >> it was over years ago when obama declined to intervene when we were presented with chemical wherefore. a they think the islamic state is a bunch of military men who defend their area. some think they are mercenaries and knows the price they can buy them back. you are presenting us with different views. can you give a better summation
on how this is evolving there? so these students going to school, what is actually happening? >> still in the western video, you see the payoff that might be present in the islamic state. can you say more about the day-to-day administration, the way health and education in public services are being done? >> the year ago i lecturing to a group at a book fair. well i was talking and then after that, there was a signing. a very nice, smart smart man came to me with his two daughters and they were not wearing the veil. he said to me, i arrived three
days ago from the united states. he said sir, sir, it is the most secure part of iraq. the women and girls are safe. people in the middle east, people in iraq are looking for security and law and order. there were warlords terrorizing the people and imposing taxes on them. now you have one government and water is there an electricity is there and safety is there.
iraq. the country used to be run and it was under siege but in the end of every month there was food and medicine without any differentiation. [inaudible] the problem that the majority of the people, they try to live under their control. i would not live one day under the islamic state. in that part of the world, with
the surroundings, it is not bad. >> i saw picture a couple days ago of a city worker fixing the water main under a street. he had the uniform on and he was part of the public service of the water department. we have kept you very late the sleeping. it is almost time for you to wake up in london so we very much appreciate you getting up and spending such time with us. >> [applause]. i'm really thankful and grateful. i wish i was with you in person. it is a highly great organization. unfortunately i cannot be among you and know you face-to-face which is a great loss, mostly for me. >> we look forward to hosting you when your next book comes