tv Farhat Haq on the Muslim World CSPAN November 24, 2015 9:05pm-10:04pm EST
she received in the eh and awards to studies on topics of comparative religions, nationalism and ethnic politics at the university of wisconsin at madison, islamic origins of the university of chicago and an asian valley debate at columbia university and has participated in almost one dozen midwest faculty seminars at the university of chicago, recipient of the burlington northern award for excellence in teaching and the fulbright teaching research scholarship published in the area of ethnic politics, gender and politics, islam and human rights and militarism and motherhood. visiting scholar at woodrow wilson center in washington dc for 2015 to 2016. working on a book project, politics in the age of the nationstate.
on a more personal note he has been a personal advisor, mentor, and friend. i studied under her tutelage on earning my ba at monmouth college. following the completion of my ma instrumental in giving me the opportunity to teach as an adjunct professor for one year cementing my love for teaching and helping my teacher to further gradual work. it is no exaggeration to say i would not be a thriving phd student without the guidance and friendship of the brilliant and compassionate doctor farhat hawk. [applause] >> good morning.
thank you for that wonderful introduction. it is students like you that make our life worthwhile really. and so really excited to see that i have mostly students here. you are my kind of people. so what i am hoping their news to sort to sort of conduct this in a little bit more informal way, this, this presentation. so let me say a couple of things 1st. i just came back from pakistan a couple days ago. this is -- i am still getting over my jet lag. if you see me completely losing it, that's because i'm still recovering from jet lag. the 2nd thing i wanted to
say was about professor tobias gipson who was instrumental in getting me invited. we are still really a little upset with westminster college for stealing away from us. don't think we have quite gotten over that. indeed, you are lucky to have him. he is a marvelous mentor, professor, friend. and so i just wanted to have a shout out to him. what do i want to do? i want to sort of tell you that on -- i am someone who lives in two different places and two different -- yeah, two different places and cultures. i teach at monmouth college and have been for over 20 years. but atbut at the same time as you heard i was 18 years
old when we emigrated to the united states. i was born and brought up in pakistan and continued to have connection with pakistan because my research, phd dissertation was on the islamist party and pakistan and from then on i continued to be engaged and so part of what i have done is go in somers and teach. i talk to american students and pakistani students, undergraduate students as well as to conduct my research. i have this privileged position than two sort of really be able to see the
world from these two perspectives which becomes really multiple perspectives. that perspectives. that is a privilege but really also obtained because i am one of those who is always interested in telling pakistanis they have to get there act together and stop blaming the us and telling my american friends and students and audience about the blind spots that we have the muslim world in general and the mistakes that were made. i am always in some ways a bearer of bad news. it's better tobetter to do that than have a myopic view of what is going on.
what ii want to do today will take about 30 to 35 minutes and layout some thoughts in terms of how this whole issue of balancing, and the us we are calling it rebounds the scales of liberty and security, but i we will tell you in the context of pakistan it is not rebalancing the constructing so the challenge is quite different. and so for things. i'll talk a little bit about how the muslim world views this whole issue of security and liberty and particularly what the pace of muslims in the muslim world been.
then i will talk about the desire for security the desire for liberty in the muslim world my examples from pakistan, but i'll talk about egypt that because it is important. the overall point i want to make basically, and i come back, i am sure there is an easy way to do this. i got it. how do i go? so my message is very much
the pres. to havepresent to have the statement that president bush made in his 2nd inaugural address in which you say we are led by events and common sense to one conclusion, the survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. the best hope for piece is the expansion of freedom in all the world. i think that that is a very wise statement given the world we live in people in other places. so getting back from moment,
deep confusion in the muslim world and his concept of freedom and liberty. often after september 11 there was this question, why do they hate us. several magazines and the cover with the question. one of the answers that was given was well they hate us for our way of life, our freedom. they meeting here, often, you know, extremist groups like al qaeda so it could be
an expensive category. let me tell you one thing. they may not like some aspect of our freedom. they may have some mainstream majority muslims. they may have qualms about our cultural practices means that they don't like political theater. the cultural behavior and lorries. i have to say that embracing
the cost of rule of law, embraces the idea of freedom to assemble and freedom to practice. some of them may not always practices in the best way but definitely embrace the idea. so when it comes to rebalancing the view is indeed grim and complex. meant to damage muslims of the world. without the 1st part of this assertion which i absolutely don't buy, can see why the 2nd half of the statement may have a
great deal of purpose for the muslim world. in the last 14 -year-old -- 14 years loss of life and limb obstruction of property far outweighs. many parts of it pushed into a world of near anarchy would like to be short, brutish, and nasty. so-called federal territories. iraq where people are living under extremely grim conditions for many of the areas controlled by i sil.
all one has to do is think about what is going on in syria right now. pushes people to take their small kids enjoyed across dangerous seas. all of that are examples of how difficult right now life is for many, many millions of muslims throughout the muslim world. for them post- september 11 has been a disaster. so the following statement i just showed you earlier, we go back to that, his 2nd inaugural address shows there has been much talk about bringing liberty to land mostly occupied by muslims that do not otherwise have a tradition of this kind. confusing law and the battle for liberty.
we have this paragraph -- paradoxical situation because muslims pose a serious threat, and the only cure for muslim extremism is bringing liberty to muslim masses. so you know we cherish our liberty. we think it is a wonderful thing. the statement shows that the only way to maintain liberty is by giving this wonderful gift to the rest of the world, but there are a lot of people who hate liberty. we have to emphasize security. this constant difficulty in clearly thinking through us and them, who are them, who are really endangered our
democracy and freedom, the kind of dangers they pose. not enough critical thinking has been done. on the one hand they see the images of the things i can't talk about it, a place i can to the medieval dungeon without any process to determine guilt or innocence which takes up close to time of magna carta, just not what is going on in guantánamo bay undermining the wonderful progress that had been made.
then we have had earlier in our fight against terrorism this practice of rendition or we could fly suspects, and so there are many such powerful examples of how we have violated our own traditions of liberty and freedom and the rule of law with the idea that we need to do that in order to protect security and our way of life. at the same time we have been lecturing the muslim world about democracy, liberty, full of law and so this has created cynicism
and confusion as far as their relationship is concerned. this has benefited forces that are less friendly which concerns me the most about the fight against terrorism. so what i am talking about, forces less friendly liberty i don't simply mean extremist groups, though they have ties. i mean, more a politician or in-state tendency, particularly bringing militaries back in the power in places where people have
struggled to construct a democratic institution. so as i said earlier right now security is a huge concern. pakistan is a part of the top three countries. the most terrorist attacks, highest number of casualties , and it slows the fact that pakistan is on the frontline of this fight and his sense of lack of security. so i told you that i will be a little discombobulated.
okay. the vast majority are civilians. a number not just for pakistan but the world. the mayors what's going on. the one important point, civilians have the highest number of casualties, a significant number our children, but if you look in terms of people fighting against the terrorists, law enforcement you see that there are military and security forces the police, much higher numbers that is
important because what i want to talk about december 2014 they're has been a significant shift and trying to fight against terrorism the shift has occurred because some of you might've heard about this. so there have been many terrorist attacks in pakistan. why did this particular attack that's part of the
reason why there's so much attention paid to this. and i underline the fact that they kicked the balance which becomes important in terms of who benefited the most from this turning, the public generally attention to being determined to fight easier to feed the beast. the public service messages, anthems sung by kids, constant loops of footage running barefoot.
and pictures of young teenagers taken from their social website who had now joined the ever-increasing group of martyrs in pakistan. this attack in december 2014 then became a turning point. the whole nation country was now emotionally heightened state similar to what we saw after september 11 in the united states and there was this determination that they were ready to do whatever it would take to get rid of the terrorists and in this instance the group that claimed responsibility is tpp. there are one of the -- one of the sad things about what is going on in pakistan and to some extent afghanistan,
many groups, the confusion about who is standing for whom underground. okay. so one of my most important concerns when it comes to balancing the scale of liberty and security is that pakistan is a developing country, a third world country and is at the early stages of establishing political institutions that will create rule of law and some sort of democratic nonsense. one scale of liberty is under construction. events like these kind of spectacular attacks may have
what happened after this attack, there was tremendous glorification of the military. here you see the top military, after the attack he went and visited the army public school and met the students. the interesting thing about this is you see this picture on the front pages of newspapers all over facebook newsfeed. what you did not see was prime minister omar sharif who had also gone and visited the school children, but there was not much attention paid.
the only example of what had happened in terms of after this army public school attack, the military getting a great deal of attention in glory and the civilian government going into the background. the question is why? part of the reason is very understandable. when you are living in an insecure world, one of the harvard scholars put it in a memorable way talking about how security, you take it for granted. you don't think about breathing. when someone takes a where oxygen all we can think about is oxygen. so for the muslim world security is right now the most fundamental thing. theythey want to make sure
that kids are safe, the life and limbs are safe, that they have some sort of basic security. and for that they are willing to trade away the right to privacy, something that we saw, a similar kind of bargain. so after september 11, the attack in the united states, president bush's approval rating was enhance. similarly in pakistan the army public school attack greatly enhance in comparison to the civilian democratically elected government that has given security agencies a blank check to arrest, detain,
using his interrogation techniques and kill anyone deems to be a terrorist. it seems that this attack of course what happens is i can i can understand when people engage in a conspiracy theory thinking because certain forces get so much benefit from an event that you start to think, maybe they had something to do with it, at least some people started to wonder in terms of the attack. but what they had done for many decades is to sort of create a relationship with certain g hotties groups, and some of that was coming back is a blowback to impact
pakistan. all right.right. the 1st thing i want to say is that given it is in the early stage of establishing democratic institutions, any threat to security ends up damaging the delicate process because people start to glorify the military committee yearning for stability and security and are willing to give up a lot of their life. the 2nd thingthe 2nd thing that i want to five the 2nd point i want to make is that in this sort of rush to get security there were lots of changes made this tremendous glorification, patriotism,
the picture on the right side over there, soldiers have been killed in the military operation, the pakistani army has been engaged in. i will stop there. of course the military is making sacrifices. don't want to take that away from it. at the same time there are hundreds if not thousands of people were deemed killed, detained for a long time. eighteen -year-old son who was given capitol
punishment. but there were lots of such unnamed ways where those who are lying in their graves maybe some of them did, the bad guys deserve that, but it is not clear. we don't have good mechanisms always have really studying whether that is the case or not. to me that is a poignant picture with the father is leading and insists that his son is innocent but has not been given a fair trial. so one of the 1st things that happened after the attack is that the death penalty that have been suspended in pakistan was reinstated immediately because people wanted
revenge, and there were several dozen terrorists who were on death row. people wanted to see them hanging. many of them said we want to see them hanging in the public square. some sympathy for that desire for revenge cost the only problem is given a very underdeveloped criminal justice system in pakistan it is not clear many thousands on death row ever got a fair trial. there have been a lot of criticism about the process that led to people being given the death penalty.
many innocent people might have been given the death penalty. the highly emotional event of the attack against the public school death penalty is the right one and it was not just terrorists. over 300 people have been high since then. we are not sure. really only the guilty once a been caught. so one of the things than that happened in the public school, as i told you, they focused on doing something. what they do is come up with this idea of national action and create a constitutional amendment to basically create military court.
the idea is previously the civilian court has led the terrorists go free because they were unable to get the right evidence or threatened , have been judges and lawyers that have been killed and so the only way of getting rid of this was by having military court. that is problematic because you have a democratic government, constitution that should be able to handle these cases, but once again a way that the military was reasserting itself. a soft coup because the military is interested in getting rid of the military elected government in becoming the front face of power, the most influential actor from behind the scenes which works out well because
the international price report concluded them all the national action plan creating a constitutional amendment they have not necessarily achieve the objective. almost all pakistanis support the objective to try to get to the terrorist elements in various g hotties groups in pakistan. instead often some of these knew military codes and ways of operating in law enforcement have been used to either suppress certain ethnic groups or try to sort of contain political parties like in karachi, brought
into this whole new law enforcement. the leaders. of course the problem here again is that when you talk to ordinary pakistanis they like it. they are tired of corruption of politicians, the largest city in pakistan has a tremendous amount of instability and violence and so the desire for security, they're quite happy if the military comes in and cleans up the operation. i understand that. the glorification islam
decided enough of that there are going to go in and clean up. mostly what that meant was to demolish all the temporary housing of hundreds and thousands of people and basically leave them with no shelter. this is a picture of operation cleanup. you see the younger kid being manhandled by the police and lots of pictures were basically these people were made homeless. i show you this says on there was a lot of outcry against this criticism of
this and hearing in the pakistani parliament. in the ig is the same terrorism to justify this. many of the people are unregistered and we simply need to sort of make sure that we know who lives where in order to secure ourselves which is why we had done it. of course i can understand that there are hundreds and thousands of refugees some of whom could be engaged in terrorists practices, but balancing that with hundreds of thousands of people,
extremely poor and impoverished people being thrown out however temporary shelter they had. there is also an electronic surveillance bill that got past and so basically what you see is very much in nearly are talks in pakistan where there are a lot of agencies most prominently the isi that has been gathering moving toward mass capture and storage of communication. and so pakistan is one of the thing is partners in the united states when it comes to international surveillance my cooperating with the nsa.
so that is also a huge problem for pakistan. but the problem in what way? i am very much convinced that with the government is doing is not reasonable, but it becomes much more a problem for two reasons. first you have a government that is not very efficient. under resourced, -- the police don't have enough training. lots of problems of inefficiencies. it may gather the data that theywon't be able to capture the bad guys and not, but it is also that there are much greater, higher level of danger that this data would
be used to suppress minority groups, undesirable political speeches. let me just quickly go to egypt. this is egypt now. the military is trying to some sort of constitutional cover for its soft coup. in egypt they're is no pretense. we had the arab spring and there was so much hope for liberty and democracy and all of that. things have become grim. and that is because the military is absolutely intent on taking away any notion of liberty in egypt because from their perspective they are securing people. and so this is just one example, 529 muslim
brotherhood people sentenced for killing one officer. now, i said earlier and don't have enough time to untagged but the moment you say muslim brotherhood for many that is guilty as charged. they must be involved in terrorist activities. activities. that is absolutely not the case in egypt at least because the majority of them among the vast majority had been moderate, but the moderation may not stay for long because in a situation like this within six to seven months you had thousands of people killed at protests and hundreds and thousands of people arrested so the top state violence against protesters. the bottom graph is now the
terrorism of the extremist groups responding, and so the numbers right now, the state is killing a lot more people than the terrorists are, but if they continue to kill and imprison people indiscriminately then this might be reversed. yesterday some of you might have heard this news. there were several mexican tourists in egypt that were killed. anyway, this desert, a place where tourists go because of an amazing rock formation. military gunships started to shoot them. ten of them died. right now there is all of
this controversy because the military government is saying these troops were not supposed to be there anyway. conducting operations against terrorists. absolutely not. we had the permits. taking groups there all the time. think about how we don't see this, this is not on the front page of the news, but egypt is conducting military operations like that for it is shooting a groups of people, you know, sticking tourists for terrorists. the.then, to let me conclude , is that unfortunately the post- september 11 world is not only brought a lot of insecurity from the muslim world that it has pushed
back the possibility of liberty or democratic evolution. at this point things look grim. i wish i could leave you with a more optimistic kind of picture. i know more in depth because the fact that the military needed to take a constitutional cover is a step forward because it means that the constitutional cover is important. otherwise right now things look grim. okay. i went on more than i wanted to build that there there are still 11 minutes for questions. [applause] >> thank you. we have a few minutes for
questions. if you have a questiona question please take a position that one of the microphones down front. it looks like they are being switched on. feel free to come on down if you have a question. >> thank you. >> hi. i was wondering what the public reaction to the government crackdown, seen as an overreach or generally welcomed and why they can garner such support if they are the popular group. >> one of the political parties which is very strong
had a virtual monopoly, but anyway, they are a political entity with legitimate constituencies but unfortunately there has also been a party that is engaged in lots of criminal activities. they had one and islam about as a political machine on steroids, complete control, and so the military going after doing cleaning up the targeted killings, there is general support of that and even their own constituency has been muted and coming out to oppose some of these military actions.
for example there were three or four workers that were killed by the rangers which is part of the military. and they asked for a general strike and that didn't happen. places that were closed for a while but life went on. that was the 1st time in their history since the late '80s that it calls for a strike and was unsuccessful. that shows that people are actually sort of supporting the military's actions of restoring law and order. when you don't have that they very much support this. this. that does not mean the support is completely gone. they are hoping that there will be change at the top.
conducting things. >> hi. >> hello. i was wondering, how would you compare pakistan are egypt to terrorism to the us? >> i think both pakistan and egypt, the reaction shows how all politics is local. for both of these countries the kind of terrorism is very much to do with their own political history and geography. right next to afghanistan and after the soviet invasion. they had this kind of
strange relationship there is the sort of discernment, clear ups and downs. they then and now is divided up. and all of this because they are focused on the animosity within the. egypt since the 50s, no one in egypt of establishment, the political elite coming from the military had seen islam in general.
there was no confusion about that. earlier they engaged in suppression of islamists and now we see the same. unlike pakistan islamists in egypt much greater in number , much more moderate, the muslim brotherhood may have made some strategic mistakes, but they were generally much more moderate. for me it is rolling back by strongly coming against them to create much greater authoritarianism and tyranny in egypt and the response to that tyranny is we are in
for a bad time in egypt the next eight to ten years because there will be more terrorism. >> thanks. >> sure. >> in times of war like in the case of pakistan and egypt don't you think it is a great thing for the military to save up since you cannot have the civilian population take over in the case of crisis? maybe we just have the army in the wrong hands, the ones in the army. >> that's a good question, a very good and fair question. ..
so what that does is it creates a large situation that is just not good for overall security of the country. so we talked earlier about we talk about addressing demographic problems, or problems of poverty, educating your public. all of that needs more balance and what happened in pakistan is this imbalance. so that is why, for me it is very worrisome because it just simply means that it will continue to be.
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comments. >> wednesday, the new head of this macedonian institution on the challenges of running the institution. >> i believe that artists, whatever artist they are they could be dancers, they could be musicians, performing artists of other types of visual artist may perceive the world a bit differently. they may perceive trends sooner than general populace perceived trends. when creating an expression that reflects the different perception of currency of reality they may bump into people who don't share that point of view. years go by or generations go by and perhaps i was an early perception of something that turned out to be true, maybe not, but whatever it is creative act tivoli across the spectrum of humanity will -- we have to be ready for and i