tv Mary Norris on Between You and Me CSPAN November 29, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm EST
cross referencing >> thank you for that amazing introduction and thank you for coming insight on this glorious day. we got lucky. people are into reading and it is raining out. it is true about the foot checking but to give you an introduction, i visit the introductory part of the book that is about my career in the dairy industry. since we are here in wisconsin, i went to rutgers university, where i chose to go when i got out of cleveland to brunswick,
new jersey. because it at a renowned department of dairy science. while i was there i did take one course in how to judge dairy cattle and i've learned the differences between brown swiss cows, it has not come handy at all. when i went back to cleveland after college i couldn't think of anything else to do. i called a local dairy and asked if there were any openings for milk men. it would be interesting to be in the dairy industry at any level and i had a fantasy for years about holding a dairy farm. we never had a lady drive a milk truck but there is no reason why not. he let me come in and talk to him.
heated milk, undercut with bracing whiff of ammonia. it was the first time i could be completely honest in a job interview. i didn't have any experience but i was sincerely interested in the dairy industry as you can tell that i have perhaps told a lie or two about the speed at which i typed that a job before them. i guess i didn't have to lie about the foot checking job but that is because they didn't ask me if i knew what happened. on a frigid morning in february i went along with the milkman on a ridge in fairview park west side of cleveland. the milk truck had two sets of petals, one with a standard shift, the driver sitting down when you were going long distance and the other for driving standing up when you were hopping between houses. the second set had two battles, the clutch and break were combined in one.
when you needed to slow down or shift gears your left foot squeeze down through the clutch to the brake on one pedal and you had to lift your right foot off of the accelerator and balance on one healed. the route was available and they gave me the job. generous friend lent me her car for a crash course on how to drive a stick shift. the foreman who was training the notice i handled the track better standing up and sitting down. the seat was designed to fold up and swing around to the side where it could be stowed out of the way. all the folding and swinging at isn't it up so when i turned the steering wheel receipt swung in not opposite direction and i find myself facing out the side instead of the direction the truck was going as if i were on some disorienting amusement park. at the foreman's suggested i was driving back to the plant standing up brook park road, the
road in cleveland, and i went through an underpass on the far side of which was a traffic light and i was almost under it when i saw red so i had to slam on the break and try to steer while gripping the steering wheel and balancing on one heels. i lost control. the truck smashed into a concrete barrier to. the form and was thrown into the creek and i landed on the floor. he was okay. i was bruise and humiliated. the plant had its own tow truck and mechanic and i wrote back with the mechanic wanting to bum one of his unfiltered camels. the fact that the plant had its own -- should have led me to realize this at happened before. i thought it was a first. the form and got blamed because the boss that he shouldn't have had been driving standing up and i got another chance. i had some really nice customers. there was a couple who bought only a pint of have and have once a week for their coffee and
i had an deadbeats, the kind of people who knew if they ever paid their bill in full year dropped from. there was a man who rehabilitated claim changers, those contraptions with barrels, we wore them on our belts. the milk shoots, boxes beside the door where you put the milk between the storm door and the inside, milkman. i wasn't the man but i did like the word lady. it seemed not feminine so i wouldn't shout milk lady. milkmaid was a little too fanciful. i settled for milk woman which was a bit too anatomically correct and made me sound like a wet nurse. i muscled the last syllable. milk woman. i have half a mind to stay in cleveland and try to marry the boss's son. he raised the cattle but i gave
up the military to accept the the ship at the university of vermont while pursuing a master's degree in english, kept up my interest in the dairy industry. there was an agricultural school not unlike the university of wisconsin. i learned to milk cows and so there were university cows. pmi first job once the academic life had warned me down, packaging mozzarella on a night shift in a cheese factory. the team of women wearing white rubber aprons, yellow rubber gloves and hair nets full of mozzarella out of cold salt water, label them, back at them, box the cheese, i had a secret in the trunk. the popeye style muscles i developed my forearms atrophied soon after i moved to new york. sometimes on the sides of trucks making deliveries isil
recognized the logo of wholesalers. in the red, white and green on the trucks that deliver cheese, pizzerias. i don't suppose i will never be long to the brotherhood of teamsters again. i still have a chauffeur's license. or have callouses on my palms, from handling a gallon of cartons. so i moved to new york and got a job at the new yorker in that editorial library. my first day there, there was a big snowstorm and most everybody went home but i stayed with my boss in the library so quitting time, when we were leaving that night, an editor, on the elevator with us. i noticed his. mud green rubber boots said those are the kind of boots we war in the cheese factory.
he looked at helen and said it so this is the next stop after the cheese factory. i kind of soft pedal to the dairy industry in my editorial after that those still came up -- i thought that for today i would -- i know you are dying to learn about commas, i, i would give your money's worth and then i remember you got in for free. i thought i would try to cover the the three most important things about english grammar in usage, some of them have to do with commas, some of some don't but this seems to me more crucial today. just to introduce what i do as a copy editor, this is from a chapter in the book called that
which, and the issue is the use of the words that and which. whenever i am asked on the radio or in public i fumble. is almost impossible. so far i found it impossible to give a straight answer. but i will try this, see if it comes out. i always forget in the popular imagination the copy editor is a bit of a witch and it surprises the when someone is afraid of me. not long ago young editorial assistant getting her first tour of the new york offices paused at my door to be introduced and when she heard i was a copy editor she jumped back. as if i might poke her with the red hot -- relax, i wanted to say. i don't make a habit of lecturing people in conversation or printed message is a
publication. change the course of the missile. have our way with a piece of rose. the image of a copy editor is someone who favors -- amine person who enjoys pointing out other people's errors. a lowly person just starting out in her career and eager to make an impression or at worst, a bitter thwarted person who wanted to be a writer. and instead got stuck dotting the is and crossing the teens ended venting the careers of others. i suppose i have been all of these and there is a big fancy word for going beyond your promise. in webster's second unabridged. a lot of times copy editing is about not going beyond your
problems. and i'll protect the nation areas some. writers might think we are applying rules and sticking to their prose or some standard but just as often with backing off, making the sections or at least trying to find a balance between doing too much and doing too little. a lot of the decisions you have to make as a copy editor are subjective. an issue that comes up all the time, whether to use that quote which depends on what the writer means. it is interactive, not mechanical. the example i give in the book is the dylan thomas klein force but through the green hues, the force, that, you can take out the phrase beginning the -- what is that called? the relative clause. if you can take it out and the sentence can do without it, then it is nonrestrictive, something extra. if the sentence makes no sense
without applause, in this case the force driving flower, that is not poetry. that means that clause is restricted, define the meaning. which course? the force of the green cute to drive the floor so that is restrictive. nonrestrictive is anything else. americans have agreed to use that when the clause is restrictive and to use which when the clause is nonrestrictive. it works pretty well. but not always. and either restrictive one nonrestrictive is in the lord's prayer, our father who art in heaven, matthew, verse 6, line
9. is a restrictive or nonrestrictive? just where is god? i think it is nonrestrictive as indicated by the comma before who, it doesn't define the father, just tells where he lives. it is as if you could in search by the way, our father, who by the way lives in heaven, except that our father, the grammatical term -- direct address. in direct address there would be no need to tell got where he is. in the original context, in prayer to his disciples. if there are no commas the implication is whoever is praying has another topic. joseph? conceivably christ intended the phrase as restrictive to identify and the heavenly father, putting theology aside,
i might say speaking for my siblings and me, our father who art in cleveland, we all understand our this talking about our one and only dad in cleveland. new testament did without the commas and a sense has been up for grabs ever since. the latin which comes from st. jerome, nonrestrictive, you can hear the commas. the english translation from the book of common prayer make our father, comma, which art in heaven. nonrestrictive. even if you did later changed it to who. got is the creator. father in a figurative sense and monotheistic position there's only one, but a modern english conversion makes it simply our
father in heaven which is restrictive. our heavenly father. one modern english version both catholic and a glutton does without the comma, our father who art in heaven. little we did you have to admit. the restrictive one without the comma is more direct. almost goes out of its way to snub the earthly father. the nonrestrictive with the comma is acknowledging he is the father of us all. i am not religious. so far that has not gotten me in any trouble. the other huge issue in english usage today is gender. english lacks a gender neutral
word for pronouns meaning both he and she, has become very sensitive since we have become more sensitive to trends gender in our lives so i am going to be a little from my chapter on a gender. perhaps the most intractable problem hovers around conventional use of masculine pronouns to include the feminine when the antecedent is mixed for sheet or unknown or irrelevant. collapsed gender in the english language, the third person singular personal pronoun, he, she, him, her, ancient birds and rounded with where have become the most ticklish subject in modern english usage. if the english-language properly organized it would be a word that meant both he and she so i
could write it john americans, hesh will want to a tennis, which would save a lot of trouble. there have been many attempts to come up with the gender neutral pronoun. it for instance it, him or her, is him, bar wing from mandarin, shem and herm which some like noaa's offspring, used by an online group devoted to sexual bondage. gha ghachwhich is klingon. none of these have caught on
surprisingly. we have the venerable english language usage pandit h. w. fowler is seas three makeshift solutions for this deficiency in our language. we can use the so-called masculine ruling which he is understood to stand for either the masculine or the feminine, use he or she, himself or herself however awkward or revert to the non gender specific there which bends the number rule. that is what is happening and is going to happen but we are against it. and will paint on to our pronouns as long as we can. i hate to say it but the proper use of their or his or hers is wrong. it may solve the gender problem and no doubt has taken over
spoken language but does so at the expense of number. and antecedent in this into a cannot take the place of a pronoun, certainly in speech, it is not fair. why should the lowly common gender plural pronoun trouble our singular, feminine and bastion announce? nobody seems to take very seriously, why not mix up a bit. why can't a woman use feminine pronouns if she feels like it? what is stopping a man from filling in the her or sheep? modern american usage entertains this very briefly but thinks that it could be dangerous, a male writer using he and she could be making it even worse,
turning this crew a little, teasing, making it worse than it ever was before. i personally find when a male writer uses that it is very endearing and i know that it was a statement some new yorker writers started doing it with. any mail writer in his use of pronounss is admirable. that small minority of men who are secure enough in their masculinity to use the feminine singular. i think it is possible the makeshift come more easily to meet because i have experience with the transplant. nothing makes it clearer how intimately and deeply pronouns are imbedded in our lives than having to alters them with someone you have known all your
life. i started studying italian and try to figure out which now owns were feminine and which were masculine and is not always easy. just because it ends in a doesn't mean it is feminine, just because it's the class in of this mean it is masculine. i was trying to figure this out, gender leaped out of the text looking to my life. my brother said he was transgendered. these two years younkers and me and we have been close or at least i thought we had been close, dropped to getting cleveland, escaped to new york, we were collaborators, this chapter goes on to describe pronoun words we heading cleveland and i sibling and die, my sister and i are good friends now but what has really jumped out in this paragraph, i don't know if you noticed this sentence, two years gender isn't me, i got so many letters about
that, people reading along in the book, that is not one of them. just made one about the word van and trying to answer all these letters at once and attached to the letter and say please see my video. them can be a conjunction and i learned in third grade, two years younger rhythm i because of them would introduce the pause, subordinating conjunction and you are supposed to hear the understood i was. if you understood the firm following it, but a pronoun in
the nominative case but then is the position. it is in the dictionary, you can look it up and it is a preposition it takes the objective case. prepositions followed by me so i stand by, he was two years younger isn't me. one person wrote in with a sentence, younkers in the. which was also true and thinking about making that change but the point i want to make, gets stuck on what i learned in third grade, his brothers, only for a couple days, not sentence diagraming but it is also a
preposition, you can use prepositions, appropriate pronouns, objective pronouns and the only note i would add to that is somebody might notice i am about to launch into an intimate discussion of gender and family and that is not correct someone's grammar. [applause] >> i am now since we are on pronouns and the title of the boat is "between you and me" and one thing i found that i am sick about is the title between -- "between you and me". some people have a bad habit of saying between you and i or they use the nominative pronoun when they should be using objective pronoun. i tried in this chapter to
diagnose that problem and so glad people who good does it don't put me on stage with steven tinker. steven tinker is a famous sidling list with really great hair. when i was in graduate school living on my own in the vermont countryside i decided to learn how cars work. i wanted to be self-reliant. i drove a 65 plymouth, dark blue-green with the huge expanse of windshield and the v-8 engine which meant nothing to me. i knew how to pump gas and check the oil and change of flat tire. that is about it. my father had discouraged me from learning anything about the workings of the engine. when i said i wanted to learn
how congress works he said it is easy, i will tell you everything you need to know. he put the key in the ignition and turned it. like this. so i tried to take a course in auto mechanics, at the local high school. on the first night the auto mechanic use the word i had never understood, a gasket. i had known one once on a friend's car in utah and i knew it costs a lot to replace and the car was never the same. now i was going to find out what a gasket was so i raised my hand and asked what is suggested. the teacher who looks like a used car salesman defined gasket by using tweet the other words i didn't know the meaning of, crankcase, piston, carburetor. i am still not sure what a gasket is.
that got quite a lot about what a gasket isn't acting kind understand. grammar has an intimidating term and grammarian's throw the morale. you don't need to use them in order to use the language. e.b. white admitted the 4 elements of style he was the kind of writer who did not have any exact notion what was taking place. to understand how language works you have to roll up your sleeves, join the stained wretches as we name the parts being careful to define the middle way that makes from simpler instead of more complicated and see how they work. just between you and me, eyes of shirt, the whole body of the english-language, trying to gain my trust, leans forward and says between you and i or when a character in a movie complaints
to a girl it is just not right one thing you and i to get there or when the winner of the academy awards thanks a friend for getting sally and i together. maybe it is the heat of the moment. maybe people think it might be of a bit at home, but can't possibly be right in a formal setting. brian garner white mentioned earlier devotes a column to the problem of between you and i noting this is a grammatical error committed almost exclusively by educated speakers trying too hard to sound refined but stumbling badly. this kind of thing occurs all the time. an old episode of the honeymooners, ralph clanton jilted ed and found another bowling party and says to norton we have already reserved that alley for patty and i.
ralph tried to show his superiority. he is not the most articulate guy. but by putting the other person first, he and the others have less word order for confusing the pronoun. first let us praise the impulse behind all these flips, salesmen and emotionally damaged sun in the movie or script writer and the movie star are all humdingers themselves by putting another person first. that is point out if they were not so alike, if he occasionally puts himself first they would know that had it wrong. no one -- between i and you or complain because someone was lumping i end you together or feigned a friend for getting i and sally to the bleeding and ralph clanton would probably not say we have already reserved
that alley for i and happy. caddy might. if you go ahead and put yourself, using me instead of by you can be sure he is right, between the end you. living be and you together. me and sally together. if you still think it is impolite in your mother or first grade teacher, move me to the other end and you have good grammar. between you and me, lumping you and me together. thanks for getting sally and me together. and the case of ralph kremlin more ridiculous that he makes his characters are more ridiculous. funny with a mistake. it makes him feel superior. also exposes his ignorance to us the viewers and makes us feel superior.
dealing withs are on ralph grant's side. a staycation and i, vicki and i, whatever our a unit and people tend to keep them in variable even when they function in the sentence dictate fake unchanged. they treat these compounds as if they were quotation marks around the mic the king and i. i love the king and i, like saying shall we dance, between you and me i could do without it. a friend of mine said in the facebook conversation after her son said to her is that is what they did for nolan and i. nolan and me, she said. her son argued languages evolve and today many people think it was wrong. he added stinker of hearts, the parental units.
besides, who cares? well, why exactly do we care? why is it wrong to say between you and i? you can't even tell your children you have to learn your grammar if you want to grow up to the president because barack obama says in his most eloquent president in decades, he says things like thank you for graciously in fighting michele and i. i got excited when i read a passage in gone girl, the woman remained in the car the whole time, to pacify her toddler in her arms, watching her husband and me trade cash treaty. that is the correct grammar, you know, her husband and me. wait to go, gillian flynn, i thought. may use sellers many billions of books as mcdonald's sells
burgers. leader i realized it was the character's thoughts, not the author's into character turns out to be just the sort of uptight, entitled snob who gives good grammar a bad name. the next five minutes i will attempt to give gramm lessons. i feel and should have something -- saw something in half. the most important verb is the verb to be. was, where, will, have been. grammarian's know it as the copulative verbal. many prefer linking verb but i think the term copulative avert impressed me in my junior year of college. it was my first inkling that
english grammar was interesting. the function of the copulative verbiage to fit nouns together, to con jo lin king them as a plumber fit speights, screwing the mailing to the female. these are actual terms from plumbing to. to make the two one. the copulative firm functions almost as an equal, i am a copy editor. my plumber is a st.. you are the reason. nouns and pronouns in the simple sentences all fall into the same category, the world that known plays is case. the known this is the subject, i, you, my plumber is in the subjective case ended known it links to, copy editor, reader, through the verb is also the subjective case, that is the power of the serbs.
the term for the subject in this case is nominative, easy, in english -- areas also trended to verbs. this kind of verbal transfers some kind of activity from the subject to another known not so closely identified, the mechanic inspect the car, the cocktail's, the engine needs oil, the transitive verb points forward to something. in english we need to know who did what to whom, very accusative language. the term for the case of this kind of known, objective, also the accusatory. i never learned any of this. i took a german my senior year
in college. we learned as children how to do pronouns that it takes a while. her is a sweetheart. strictly speaking the copulative firm calls for the nominative case. the child should say she is a sweetheart. used to call her husband on the phone, call from work and announce herself. and turn stuff it was made of. when mr. burns on the simpsons find out homer's father used to wrestle shouts you were he, his excellent grammar marking him. tentative terms reflect on the
subject. intransitive verbs directs the action on to an object, the intransitive verb, some action purely as the subject. there are a couple of firms that have to do with the intransitive verbs. grow and remain, also in transitive verbs. when we say something tastes good, not well you are showing a subjective complement for something, good reflects back on the subject. is not an adverb that developed the meaning of the verb. to feel badly would mean to grow
about indirectly. the verb itself uses the bad to the subject rather than being used as an adverb. one might reasonably ask if we can use the objective or subjective, it is me again, which defines the or not that extreme, why can't we use objective for the objective, grammar is a little like plumbing. some systems are designed to expose what paper. and designed for a capacity for one, you can -- if you force two ply into a system that tolerates only one why you are asking for trouble. i will wind up here. i don't know that i made this
crystal clear. it is an interesting mistake. that pronouns were more formal as if english had separate forms for i and me the way an italian, french and german do. i is not formal, mead does sound more infinite somehow, maybe it is a confidential error of someone speaking in public, by, he, she, we, as they, their software. it is something to do with being object. subject which take responsibility for the action. it would help if singers vocalize between you and me me me me. if you prefer an automotive
explanation, keeping the engine out of car parts, carburetors, crankcase, where it mixes with oxygen in just the right proportion to fire the pistons that keeps the motor running. pronouns have increased, the verbs are the gasoline and the nouns are the air. the case system is the gasket that keeps everything running smoothly. you notice it only when someone blows it. if that doesn't work for you, just put the key in the ignition and turn it. thank you. [applause] i am here to answer your
questions about commas. >> reminder questions from this microphone, we have 15 minutes. >> hopefully and presently, we still find those fights to keep them as they were intended or do we give up the popular usage and accept hopefully means and presently means doesn't mean soon, it means now. >> that is a question that comes up at the new yorker. we don't use hopefully, it is a sentence at byrd and it has been accepted by the associated press, there is no holding it back. my solution to this, there is nothing i can do about other people especially once the associated press says okay but i don't have to do it myself. and presently doesn't mean what people think it means.
presently means in the future. it doesn't mean in the present. presently means in a awhile, soon. that is a different issue. better not use it at all. amazing there aren't more questions. yes. >> [inaudible question] is this true in the new yorker? i would have gone, i would have went. >> maybe you could briefly explain the past parcelling tell me if it is true. >> we could say that is going to be bad grammar wherever you go because the birds have three principal parts. and from third grade i remember the teachers, it was like chalk
on the blackboard when the last child came and set i seen it on my way to school. i see is the present, i saw as the past, i have seen is the past perfect. that is the one that demands the principal form of love her. there are some verbs that have two rations. i snuck in. i would say i snuck in. the dictionary put first sneaks. i would never say i sneaked in. that is something in copyedit you have to decide, but the writer in the straight jacket or use the first form the dictionary gives or you let the writer have her own voice. it is not less proper, just an alternative.
that is bad grammar. i thought you were going to talk about the past perfect when you came up. i have gotten a lot of interest in that form of the verb, and i had gone. a lot of people use that when they don't need to. >> this appears past tense. >> shrink shrink shrunk. i hardly ever -- >> i shrank my teacher yesterday. >> that is because of that movie honey i shrunk the kids. it is true that once something enters popular usage like that you can't put it back in. another thing, though only thing we can do, our own good usage, we don't, there is no getting
other people to our way. thank you. >> given your colorful work history how did you become a copy editor and how did your learning on the job developed? >> i did in fact learn on the job. i started in that editorial library taking apart the pages considerably. i wanted to help put it together. my first job outside of the library, i got to do something like founder reproved reading which is the last step between proof and print. just comparing the last version we generated by editors and proofreaders with the new version and making sure they are the same and not impressive if you have any opinions.
i moved to something called collating where that department and everything came together, copied to changes from the editor, the authors, proofreader, fact checker all on to -- i got in trouble because i condensed the wording of something written by libel lawyers. you should have a rubber-stamp. anyway, that was the place either in a lot because i saw what the proofreaders did in copying their changes. what i first wanted to be a copy editor, from my place in the library i could see through our window to window on the next higher floor, i could see the woman who had that job get up and turn around and consult the enormous dictionary, that is the job i wanted and when there was another nitride for an didn't get the job, i didn't have any
experience. i tried to spin it as a good attribute because i wouldn't have anything to unlearn. i did not get the job. but after being in and collating for a while i did learn enough, i was able to work and manuscript and copyediting at the new yorker is really very -- ita while i did learn enough, i was able to work and manuscript and copyediting at the new yorker is really very -- it is like to see if, traveler with two els, were slight cooperate and reelect which we get teased about alive and play a little with commas, very conservative, serial comma, the new yorker uses that and the comma after the introductory phrase.
that is how i came to do it. i was terrified for the first year i was on a copycat of doing too much too little. both are bad. but i kind of had to do too much to learn to do less and there in to do too little and little more. it has gone back and forth. i learned by trial and error. >> talk about some of the new words, my ask is that you -- >> some of those sound better than others. that is something the english language has been doing ever since the english-language was the english language, making
other parts of speech. the big fail is another one. there is something that as they come into the language, people who are young and going to carry on the language, there is not a lot you can do about the in the great course of events. i don't use the myself. i feel like i am trying to masquerade, as someone who graduated from college and hasn't had a chance to die her hair. is inevitable. one word, helpa, not sure what part of speech that is. it is short for helluva, right? that is what i assume. i queried it in something and
was persuaded is -- has its own t-shirt. we have to get used to it. we permit them in the new yorker kind of gradually, but it is inevitable july hope ask doesn't take over, the failed is going to happen and there are a lot more. it is not such a terrible thing turning a better been to a known. no stopping it, i am afraid. >> in racial matt out's interview of hillary clinton, she said the democrats are doing terrible act -- i generally have a great deal of respect for racial matt out a comment on the disappearing -ly.
rachel matt out said that, not hillary clinton? >> i have to cut broadcasters a lot of slack. they are in the hot seat. if they say something wrong they have to bear on. they didn't do such a terrible thing and i i think you could probably make the case for occasionally calling it colloquial. let's get rid of that. we have something serious to considered. >> wrap up with two final questions. >> when you mentioned, i am
wondering when the coffee gets to you are you ever -- how much i you attempted to work on the story, the organization or the logical issue, with the editors. >> generally i don't work at the level of structure. i work at the level of sentences and paragraphs, mostly sentences. it did just come up the other day. a piece i was working on by michael specter, there was one sentence he was trying to say too many things in. i didn't get it. the piece was going to press. what i'd do in this case because if you speak with the author you are in for a two our conversation. if you speak with the editor you get a decision and bypass the
author. i hope michael specter isn't watching. we just went in there and swiped the sentence in two had started it with a different conjunction and it was fine. so you kind of have to work around. we all have relationships. you get used to working with a certain editor and author and you have a flow to the work and everyone knows what everyone else's job is. so we can cut people short. >> the word peak, they mean peak when they mean peek but morse of people using ppek or peak w when they mean pique.
>> let's straighten everyone out. >> is it going away forever? >> with two es, a took a peek through the window, it is the height. i am at the height of my career. at the peak of my career. this is it, folks. pique is when somebody is -- what part of speech is that? i am not even sure. you don't say you are in a peak. is a verb. peak curiosity. i have seen all of those in copyediting. i have seen the all used wrong.
used wrongly. >> stupid auto correct. >> auto correct is no good for those things and spell check is no good. that is why we still need copy editors. [applause] thank you. thank you so much. >> thank u, . .g. mary will be here to sign books out in the lobby. we will get the signing in two minutes. please come out and say hello. up next will be david maraniss. [applause] [inaudible conversations]