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tv   Book Discussion on The Butchers Trail  CSPAN  February 20, 2016 8:00pm-9:01pm EST

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spee last of >> we are ready to begin. on behalf of the entire staff thinks her coming. now is a good time to turn off your cellphone and let me get to q&a if you have a question because as u.k. in see we are filming for the tube to all -- youtube
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channel. agent before you come up to get your book signed please pull the pure chairs to be in them against something. this evening we will hear about a pretty remarkable true story that really hasn't been told before the author is a journalist calls the world's most successful man hurried to targeting those who were wanted for war crimes. remember that was the period would ethnic cleansing emerged with a euphemism for
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the wholesale flight that was taking place in the heart of europe. is to be indicted subsequently from the international tribunal a special court created by the united nations. the first time that is a global court was established that ended up is engaging in a more substantial hunt with the search for the nazis after world war ii ended may 2011 all lahood to 60 were indicted as they were captured or killed or surrendered or committed suicide. whole lot of the manhunt was conducted in secret. involving special forces it
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even a tracking units inside the tribunal itself. that has set a precedent for our international authorities to bring justice for the mass atrocities and crimes against humidity. mom through much reporting a british journalist, but julian borger has pieced together the amazing story with two vendors interviews hasid investigators say in diplomats and others. in then he cover the bosnian war and with "the guardian" and sarajevo is and how in 1989 he returned to the balkans for the cause of the conflict. he is world affairs editor at the guardian with the
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2014 pulitzer for coverage of the edward snowden trial. his book the butcher's trail has received favorable reviews with abundant how detail with a narrative style. to call the book a big page turning account in the new york journal said this fascinating tale is difficult to put down and read like a true crime. please will come julian borger. [applause] >> thanks to politics and in prose for having me here. i really loved as they
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referred to me has distinguished. as a when prematurely gray admire early '30's. [laughter] and to hear the press with day leap of faith to wonder how big a leap day had to say why are there so many names? but in those rankings but when i saw that there was number two. but what the publisher said
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that the world said so much about the problem of the west in perhaps because it seems so complicated it took three years. and to break through that barrier and it is universal from this story from those mass atrocities and international communitarians and foreign policy then than now. those that joy in the war and after word for the colleagues that are
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there, and i were astonished after the war when it did go after these people that were indicted. and they made a point of avoiding to go after them. foot that policy change just after eyelash -- after i left to gather momentum in what they got from 2008 and i wrote a magazine piece and that they will be completed
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they took a long time and they completed it. in the then it occurred to me there was a much bigger story that had to be told. with the sprawling manhunt if you talk to intelligence and in special forces people in depth through 9/11 would have been invoked in the manhunt one way or another. and it was buried under layers of secrecy because of the intelligence and with special forces but what was
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interrupted midway through with the lower bonterre -- wore on terror those that were working -- looking for the war criminals. the first renditions from sarajevo and those that were involved with that man had with into hotel hollywood to pick up the jordanian egyptian it a few days after 9/11 were the forced -- the first to undergo that rendition. i find it is hard to find out what happened since. but from the very beginning
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with the war crimes tribunal that was of mixed multinational team the best they could bear it with us a diplomat general. in day prosecutor and a homicide detective in the polish special forces unit. and that elaborate sting under the war criminals and they did so without the
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approval of their own governments. and then tell than nato did not want to get involved. but after that it became much harder and with those of space polish soldiers. in the u.s. is in the u.k. and france and the original idea would have a big
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multinational at the same time. two, with guns blazing and whether they meant to do this but never put to the test because the whole thing was torpedoed by the espionage scandal after a french major whose job them was to go up in in down the road in the caa was convinced the flow of information was going the wrong way.
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and then he was recalled to paris for the debrief but the hierarchy sent him back in to it occurred to u.s. intelligence officers of the ground but it was that force protection so if you don't want any trouble but then results was the same. but he added depth leaving sarajevo eventually become his face plate and then she was sexually assaulted by him. and this was presented to
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those french generals. and whether this was something he did remains unclear but the end result with that military intelligence relations were in the following years. everyone does things the way they started off but then the dutch who were operating under guilt to be those soldiers were to protect them.
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and they do have the germans for the first time at the first casualty in this manhunt. and finally the french news first timeout you almost killed a bunch to then had the biggest prize of all. then everyone was shipped out and a lot of that small fry was loaded at. but those who had given the orders with that small fry been picked up.
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and then they found a safe haven in. end the neck stage in the manhunt was about putting the pressure on those governments to do the hunting themselves. with bad economic pressure and old to believe there were only a rested with that fundamental change with the intelligence agencies. and when they were finally arrested in 2008 those political changes have happened. >> i a 2008 the most wanted man this self-declared
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republican former psychiatrist had bought death kim san mass executions to thinking unless such abominations behind. especially with korea and outrage that it had taken three years to stop the killing in 12 more to set by as they supposedly stretch the perpetrators. in the high priest of ethnic cleansing and every day would call into question for the killings that they failed to stop. with the blunders in the
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trail from the negotiations the they surrender and the long-running franco american with the american ambush. with the highly sensitive nature. when i give the blue to be in favor of his pursuers line of those mini dormant members of the service intelligence agency left after four years of violence is more interesting was the staunchest defender who was a small-time businessmen preoccupied of defending himself of charges of killing new woman in 2005.
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but the voice of the event was unfamiliar to the eavesdroppers. but that perfunctory conversation in said take a look at the address that the phone-number was registered. having discovered that his name was the eccentric old character living in high-rise apartments. named in honor of the first man in space the shabby remains of the concrete socialist dreams. from the eared and glasses tied with a black bow on his hair. he made a living offering spiritual cares for the everyday maliki is. in the celebrity with a
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regular column in the part-time kick -- did with the joint project to rejuvenate the and the it claimed if he plays the audience in their facility. with an unlikely at clinton's who had shown little interest of alternate lifestyles. so they dug a little deeper. in from this white haired shaven it appeared in and according to the identity records he came from a town halfway to the croatian border. there was one other glaring discrepancy there was another rumor in this version looked nothing like
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belgrade. a former construction in worker who grew tomatoes with plum brandy. in straight more then 5 miles in didn't even own a mobile phone. but only wanted was born in the 1940's. so one of the two men was an imposter. in those that would not finished the lifestyle of a spiritual healer but it did campaigning against the tribunal to paying around a you'd take it closer look there returned with a suggestion that this
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spiritualist and encourages the surveillance team if you remove the glasses he could begin himself. by this time word had reached him the a fugitive warrant from his favorite buyer. the engage had begun. but he wasn't prepared to come knocking on his door. the surveillance team sounded the alarm into the apartment. it looks like he was getting ready to run.
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he left in a late bloomer t-shirt and a straw hat. he had a white plastic bag and a shopping basket in a knapsack. he walked to the nearby bus stop where he was to read it and they joined the bus bound for a suburb 8 miles to the northwest. his shadows that several seats back. as they rumbled through the streets this eccentric character now in his last minutes had on his spectacles to open a spiritual text.
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they were turning gold but the column inside the bus contrasted with the surrounding streets. sasha, the new chief had set up a plan in motion. but the green belt around belgrade with to confront and two in the back. to pose as inspectors to see the badges. the old man of the straw hats felt a policeman's gripper rude his arm. the nimby and protested.
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are your superiors aware? yes came the reply. but at 9:30 p.m.. and in 2008 that it evaporated in its place the ad goes haunted the balkans for a decade reindustrialized in belgrade as a flustered old million clutching a white plastic bag. three years later it although the most ruthless of men was following his son
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because he is several cousins there then they thought they remedy in the house they thought they read elsewhere they stood there for several minutes. they cannot figure out why they had done it. is added his underwear they found him he would not be able to talk to his
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grandchildren 81 to to see them. and a few months later the last one was caught in the woods in northern serbia free to end a 17 year manhunt. in the lessons were technical that said everything you did with iraq and afghanistan they learned it is better to go small how to use drones and special forces. the man from my point of view taken away from this
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experience with the realization that peace is never in during without justice. and they learned after one year by leaving those war criminals at large. . .
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>> which is a problem in itself. international humanitarian law and enforcement are out of fashion. i think this is a demonstration and if you think humanitarian law is expensive you should try punitive. in a way the situation in syria and the growth of daesh are committing atrocities this books and policy purpose is to
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demonstrate there is an alternative to that route and that attacks international hu n humanitarian law is not pie in the sky. it has been done and it has worked. thank you very much. >> thank you for coming. looking at the situation now 20 years out from the dates, more than 20 years, what do you think of the situation in general in the balkins and in general in europe with the refuge crisis and the increasing threat from terrorism. do you think there is possibility it could happen
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again and spread continent wide? >> thank you. you are right. the war strangled the pieeace a made it difficult to succeed politically if you don't fly the ethnic flag. that has deepened the division and made it hard to function as a state. that contributes to paralysis. i don't think it will lead to war like in the 1950s. i don't think they will let it
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play out again. that doesn't mean everything is not fine. many of the bosnian constituents have what is happening being denied by neighbors. the people are not allowed to talk about what happened if they want to get along. it amazes me there is not a bigger jihadist movement. and i don't think europe is going to get along with it for much longer. it may not be war like in the mid-90s but it will not be
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pretty. >> i teach war of law at georgia washington. the icc having great promise it seems, even now, do you have any insight as to why the united states has taken such an intrensic position for the success of the icc? >> it seems to me as a professor you probably know better than me. clinton signed it in his last days in office to fulfill the promise and whether we expected it to go through is hard to say. but you know this isn't simply something that just scratched
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the process they went as far as to unsign it. it is about, i think the idea of exceptionalism and there must never come a time when an american would face foreign justice. or their own statute set-up the icc is full of safeguards that if you have a functioning of any kind you will not face justice. the mood in the bush administration is why should we make it risk we are the world's most powerful country. and the price of exceptionalism means you are not creating international norms or creating a rule of law. you pay a high price for this as
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you know. any major progress is grim right now. >> nice to see you again. i was wondering your thoughts on why it took the process so long to get up and running. maybe there was method to the madness. why did the process take so long to get started? >> that is a very good question. i think it is really hard to go back to that military mindset before 9/11 after so much blood has been spilt on largely
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pointless conflicts. to remember how risk avert the military was back then in the '90s. if you were a general in the u.s. air forces at that time your chance of getting an extra star was minimal if you had causalities under your watch. it was the most career-destroying thing that could happen. the u.s. forces that came in with the international peace keeping correspondence -- core were not the shots fired after they retreated. it wasn't just the u.s. it was the brits and the french. none of them wanted to risk
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causalities for a task that wasn't specifically mandated. >> i look at the rolls of victims and more recently about the roll of bystanders. my question is how did people respond to this mass hunting? what was the response of people like for bosnia for this handing out in what was lebanon? >> it very much depended on who. not just the question of
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ethnicity. obviously the balkin acts were right behind it because they were 80% of the causalities. they were very much in support. the nationalist were very much against it because they saw it as needing sovereignty and we will take care of our own issues thank you very much. having gained independence they didn't want to give their sovereignty to an international court. but they were complicit themselves. what changed was the arrival in office of people who saw the future in europe but wanted to draw a line between those people that were responsible tr for the mass atrocities and the people as a hole. they didn't want team to be seen as being complicit and the way to get out of that was to find
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the guilt in it and all but one woman in terms of the late 1990's and have them over. but that was a question of political evolution. >> all right. thank you very much for coming and i look forward to reading the book. i am bill nash and the american commander in bosnia in 1995-96. i would just like to make a couple comments. first of all, we were not smart enough to do what was done a year and a half later. it took the whole institution a long time to figure it all out. and as i told one of the visitors we got asking me if i could go capture this because it was in my area in the american center, i said sure.
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i said i know where hunt is and i where the head quarters are. but i have a taped division and i can destroy the mountain and i can go in there and sort out who is left and if he is there i will hand you his body, alive or dead, but i don't do stenches. you have to do it better. that is one point. the second point i would say is that having spoken to senior american political leaders, senior national leaders from all of the countries that are participating there was not a political directive for the military to perform it. the only thing i take exception to what you had to say tonight is it is not up to the jgeneral
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for what they do but up to the government to tell the generals what to do. we would all sacrifice our democracy and the control of the military if you were to put yourself in a position whether it be bosnia, iraq or afghanistan, where the generals were making political decisions, yeah, and so, i don't excuse us for not being smarter. but i do think it was a good idea to listen to the president of the united states. >> i say with one thing i absolutely agree certainly before the clinton re-election in '96 there was absolutely no will power at all. nothing that would upset the re-election campaign. after that my understanding is they had a meeting where they made this sentiment, gore said this is something we ought to
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do. and very much to dismay the defense at the time but between that time. there was a lot of internal indifferences. but if we suffer causalities we will be the one to blame. i got the idea that west clark and albright were for it but you had eric shinseki on the ground and he would bear the backlash if someone was killed or there
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was a backlash because of the unrest pushing against. >> thank you for the book and the research from the balkins as well. there was talk the principle actors were given immunity in the can you say -- course of the dayton negotiations. what, if anything, did you uncover on that front? >> there were claims made about
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immunity. one that whole brook promised. the second one is one that the shack had. when they are talking to each other they say how can this happen. and with hall bright, i doubt it. i can imagine a situation with an able negotiator and i can imagine a situation where it is less of a problem maybe. but never stupid enough to commit himself of any way. with the french it is different. at the end of of the war they had to two pilots captured and long negotiations.
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weapons with likely to have changed hands. it is quite possible concerns were made. and frefrp officials wrote a book about this and undertakings were given but given' knowing they were empty. it seemed like the general mood is this has been a disappointment for a variety of reasons. do you think the court has been successful there is
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controversial acquittals and the most controversial ones have been reversed. thai they have thought covered themselves in glory. you tack to the families of the dead in bosnia they will say it took so long and so few people have had to face justice. some of them are already out because some of the worst criminals have faced the world's most leanant penal system.
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tlpt it would be a bit like the un. it flawed. if you abolished it you would have to reinvent it. >> do you think there will be a similar manhunt for syrian war criminals one day? >> i am building prosecution cases so maybe they will be able to prosecute people in daesh one day. what they are doing is smuggling out documents that could prove these people are guilty.
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first you need a court and you need the world to agree. we need the security council to agree. there is a taste that can put them in jail at least. >> how hard it for you to fair it out what happened the how willing were any of the participants to talk years later? >> what they expressed was get
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useded to rejection. three quarters told me to go to hell. they said there is a story worth telling. it is an amazing story. we did the right thing. it is good at it comes out. >> any more questions? okay. >> thank you very much. thank you. [applause] >> copies of the book are available keystone xl pipeline cash register. remember to fold up your chairs.
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>> booktv is on instagram. follow us for updates, behind the scene pictures and videos. instagram.com/boo instagram.com/boo instagram.com/book_tv. >> this weekend we are in greenville, south carolina. judy bane bridge talks about the history of the city next. >> the book is " greenville's
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heritage. it is a book i started writing about a newspaper. it is a selection of articles that trace the history from the 1790s through the 1980s. greenville was a resort for people from the low country. when the early 19th century, starting 1810 or earlier, south carolina residents found
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malaria, yellow fever. they said in order to get to a healthier place charleston residents left the country in great numbers. some went north. new report. and a few managed to get all the way up here to greenville which was a backwards frontier community with few people.
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more of them came to greenville, hend hendersonville and it became a resort. there was no railroad yet. it didn't come until the 1850s. people went to the reading river picnicked, table rock, and dances and balls at the mansion house which was one of the best hotels in the south. when they came it brought what
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they call a more somber glow to the place. not a bunch of booze. there was a lot of liquor before that. that is a theme here. you are getting before the civil war and the massive surge in the 189 1890s. a series surrounded greenville. they were all on a branch of the southern railway which was so essential to the whole textile
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industry of getting the fabrics out and getting the cotton. near the cotton fields with a source of water that was excellent. cheap labor. this where is where the southerners came. starting in the 1890s, the names engreenville are beginninging to fade. for years if you said sampson and other names they would know what you were talking about. they were part of the finest
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books was entitled like a family. in the mills the mills themselves, because they wanted control built villages. in the 1930s you have 23,000 people. they were big concentrations and so close everybody know everybody's business. the manufactures decided they would not raise the salaries but any time anyone did one little thing to help everybody else started looking. the thing that really built mill village sense of community was
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sports. it started with double-headed in the 1880s. baseball was everywhere. some are beachers and backpackers. this is big stuff. and they met james and stopped off in new york and bought a basketball ball and bought the first basketball to south carolina and to the south. and starting in 1907 you have basketball being played here. in the 1920's it goes wild with a bask tournament that novels
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the south and people eventually every mill has not one basketball team but four. an a-team, b-team for men, women womens -- women's, boy's and sometimes girls. most mills were doing well still. but they do not have the same feeling of being like a family anymore because the mill owners began to sell off the mill villages.
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they no longer offered things at wholesale price. that all went away. and the mill began to feel the force of the japanese competition. in the 1950's japan was still making goods. but that is going to change. the first mill to close was camper down which was in the middle of downtown and started in 1874. it was the oldest post-civil war mills. it wasn't a sign yet. but in the late '60s more and more emphsis on making sure that people -- emphasis no people were living in cars anymore. salaries went up. they were living wage.

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