tv Book Discussion on Defeating Jihad CSPAN April 30, 2016 6:45pm-7:46pm EDT
at 8:45 michelle on why we fail to recognize and act on obvious dangerous. american cofounder steve case speculates on the future of the internet. we finish up our prime time program at 11:00 with a look at alibaba, the chinese e-commerce site that now rivals amazon. that all happens on c-span2 book tv, and here first up is sebastein gorka. [inaudible conversations]
>> good afternoon, welcome to the heritage foundation. we welcome those who are joining on our heritage.org website and as well as those joining us on c-span book tv in the future. we would ask everybody in-house to make courtesy check that mobile devices are silenced and turned off. it's always appreciated by the speakers. those online, you are free to send questions simply e-mailing speaker at heritage.org. and i know our guest will be glad to autograph for them as well. hosting our discussion and opening our session today is james karafano. davis institute for national
foreign policy and also the richardson fellow here. jim. [applause] >> dr. gorka serves as the distinguished chair military theory at the marine corps university. this is where -- full disclosure. that chair is supported by the marine foundation which i'm a trustee. it's a fabulous organization. check it out. maybe make a donation. that would be great. you'll understand why they do such great work that they can bring incredibly accomplished scholars to work at the university and work firsthand with the marines and soldiers and people from other department
that is come to the marine corps university and to help them understand the challenges that america faces in the world today. it's an extraordinary university. extraordinary program and we are extremely proud that se, the h seth is part of that. joint special operations university where he serves as the legal instructor for the special operations combating terrorism, of course, and more importantly seth authored over 140, is that a good number, 140 monograms, books, chapters, writings on issues that deal with this issue of extremism and global terrorism. so -- and i think the most important credential is i would defy -- this would be a test. i would defy you to go into the
office of the dni or one of the intelligence agency or any combatant command around the world or any of the services and -- and find somebody that hasn't sat in a briefing with seth gorka. he has brief it had men fighting in this war in reality and analysis. so his views are -- are extremely influential and important, and so when he writes a book about how to deal with this long war, which seems like it's just getting longer all of the time, i think it's for people that care about this issue, care about this country and security, care about the challenges to the peace and prosperity in the world today that we ought to take time out and her excited to host him to
talk about his book. seth will talk about take questions. so if you have a question, if you would just raise your hand and, i think, you'll recognize, so if you'll wait for the microphones, so the folks that are listening online can hear the question and just state your name and affiliation and we will run that to the end of the hour, so thank you for being here today and please join me in welcomeing seth gorka. >> thank you very much so much, jim. that's an introduction that my father would have been proud of and my mother would have believed. okay, it's wonderful to be here. thank you heritage for invite megaand specifically i must reiterate what was inferred earlier. i wouldn't be here today and have incredible position at marine corps and also made the
writing of this book possible, but logistically my team here is also present, including my editor, tom, everybody else, thank you for actually getting me past the finish line. no more comments needed. okay. let us talk about why i wrote this book. my day job is working with the marine corps with our special operators and the fbi to help them understand the ideology of jihadi groups and get inside the mind of bad guys. one of the reasons why i'm in a position to do that, not because i grew up in the middle east and the culture, my parents lived in hungary and my father was actually responsible for
creating a secret christian-catholic under ground organization at the university to push back on the communist take over of his beloved hungary. unfortunate his organization was feeding to the west and they were landing in the desk of a kim filby. after helping to stop the spread of communism my father and all his friends were betrayed from london. as a result of the age of 20, my father got a life sentence in the communist prison starting with two years in solitaire and two years down a coal mine after that. this is the story for which i open the book. i didn't want to do it but my wife said, americans love a good story so i opened with the story
. my father escaping across mind fields and making out to west. my father didn't know he had been betrayed. when they asked him the refugee camp where do you wanting to, the united kingdom. that's how i was born a british citizen and moved to hungary after falling and now i'm an american citizen. the reason why i decide today include the story was a simple one, i grew up with the mother's milk of freedom and democracy, just instilled in me from day one. because my father escaped from a communist dictatorship, from a prison in a commonnist dictatorship i understood the importance of liberty and how fragile it is and how ronald reagan was absolutely correct
that the lost of liberty is always just one generation away. so what i saw the events in real-time 15 years ago on the beautiful sunny tuesday morning, like today, beautiful clear skies, when i saw the two planes fly into the twin towers, i understood that the total totalitarians are back. it is clear that america is once again facing a global total totalitarian and we are facing a similar ideology that sees itself in a global them or us competition.
it is no accident that key jihadi office, the ones i detail in the book, if you really want to understand the enemy, you must read the key strategist of jihad. begins with an egyptian hiad and his work called milestones, milestones is a very, very strange mixture of fascism or communism all wrapped in the religion of islam and it's these people you must read and understand if you wish to understand the threat to america and why it truly is existential threat. these people will be not be negotiated with. these people if you think you can sit down with either the taliban, al-qaeda, isis and
negotiate about their future they are living in a alis and wonderland fantasy. the only thing you can negotiate with a jihadi about is how you will be killed, will you be decapitated, burnt alive or crucified or enslaved like a subhuman or a person that's not recognized as a human being because you're not a muslim. that's the reality with attempting to negotiate with hitler. it doesn't work. you can negotiate with the fascist about which government they are going to put you in. that's the extent of negotiations. we are in this world. the rest of the book is beyond this recognition that the new totalitarians have arrived. it starts with the lessons of sonsu, if you wish to win a war
you must know yourself and you must know your enemy. we do not know our enemy. we have political correctness out of control. in the last 15 years unfortunately it started under the bush administration, but now it has reached proportions, when the white house, unclassified memo five years ago ban the discussion of religion for the fbi or for our military, even saying that the word jihad was prohibited, we entered a new age in which it would become impossible to effectively win this war, for a student of mine stated and he will go unnamed, when the enemy gets to control what you're allowed to say about them, you already lost the war. and that's where we are today.
when a man in traditional arabic dress runs of cruiser in philadelphia and pumps and says, this is for the glory of god for ala, and the mayor of philadelphia says, it's just a crime, it has nothing to do with religion, then we are leaving in a fantasy absurdity and the fact is you can only defeat an enemy if you understand them on their own terms and when they say they are jihadi fighting for ala, you do not get to wipe that out of your threat assessment. you do that you're entering the cycle. as if we are preparing to storm normandy beaches, whatever you do when you land, don't mention
the word nazi because you could effect a german, that's the absurdity of what we are living in and it has to stop. so i use as my template, template that was successful during the cold war. we won a war against a cold war, but with two secret documents that have since been declassified and i use these as the starting point for my strategy against isis and other jihaddist. the first one is the now famous long telegram, secret telegram, the 14-page he sent from moscow to washington in 1946 that explained who is the soviet and what does stalin believed and why is he behaving in way to post world peace of europe. that is the -- that document was the enemy threat doctrine
analysis put in military terms. it was an incredibly accurate decryption of what can personality of the soviet union that made it very clear that this nation and its allies are motivated by an ideology that will not stop unless we are destroyed and enslaved, and that is why the soviet union is a threat to america and western allies. how did we go beyond the analysis of who the enemy is? well the incredible was tasked by the administration to ride the plan on how to defeat the soviets. in the national security council '68, he wrote a plan to defeat the soviet union from the outside and how to defeat it from the inside, that document was like any other document that i have before seen.
let me just read to you, if i may, one short segment from the very beginning of nsc68, reproduced both of those now declassified documents in their entirety at the back of the book, so you can read them. but let me just give you an opening section of nsc68 and ask yourself a question, when i read these words to you from the top secret strategy, ask yourself how many times you hear language like this today. in unclassified documents, in presidential statements from the rose garden, tell me if we talk like this anymore. the fundamental purpose of the united states is layed down in the preamble to the constitution, quote torques form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for common defense and promote the gnl welfare and secure the blessings
of liberty to ourselves and our prosperity. in essence, the fundamental purpose is to assure the integrity and vitality of our free society which is founded upon the dignity and the worth of the individual. do we have government documents that talk about the dignity and the worth of the individuals, the blessings of liberty? we understood what the founding fathers built this nation upon and we need to remind ourselves that today it is organizations like isis or al-qaeda that deny these fundamental trues and are therefore an existential threat to the united states. so what is to be done? i worked with dod for five years, six years, oh, my gosh. too long.
i'm a recovering powerpoint user. let me share slides with you. what is the message of my book? of course, i would like for you to purchase it but here is a simple message, al-qaeda and isis is just another form of totalitarianism. what the administration likes to call local grievances. who of the hijackers in september 11th were born in camps? not sure i understand what the local grievances for these individuals that behead fellow human beings on camera. second, america has defeated
totalitarians before and we can do it again. let me be exmy -- explicit on this, it is no accident that it took america's involvement and leadership in both world war ii and the cold war to defeat the nazises and the communists, that is not an accident. it is a function of the fact that america, we are the only nation founded on the principles, liberty, freedom and the individual dignity of the human being based upon their being made in the image of their creator. this is not an accident. and it will take america's involvement to defeat but only if we can remove political correctness and understand the stakes of this war. they are total and global. it is easy to popoo isis,
really, there are six million people living on the territory of the caliphate today. there are 80,000 armed jihadi's serving the new kalif. that's not a theory, it's not a crazy idea of a man in a cave somewhere. it's a reality. they have already issued officials manual of the islamic state on what you can and cannot do with your slaves, explicitly your sex slaves, women that you now own because they are christians. how is it that -- i'm going to get political for a second, if i may, because i don't work for the u.s. government anymore. why is it that we are talking about harriet tubman on american dollar bills or trance --
transgender access to toilets when women are being sold into sex slavery now. does somebody else see, obsessing about slavery in america over a century ago but when slavery is happening today? there needs to be an understanding of what is going on in the world. so what is to be done, to quote a certain individual that may be familiar to you. number one, we have to be honest about who the enemy is and what they want. no more censorship. let's get politics out of national security. the idea that you're not allowed to talk about the enemy using the word the enemy uses to talk about themselves, that must end. also we have to be honest that it is not a function of poverty
or lack of political enfranchisement but it is pure evil, it is the evil that we see isis that represents the greatest threat to america. there are other problems, i will admit, yes, russia is a spoiler, north korea, but not climate change, okay. sex slavery today, cruxifications. america should not be the face of the war in jihadist movement for many reasons, it should be our sunni allies, countries i worked in the past, jord an
jordannians. yes, i understand that. it's the man in the cage that burnt alive, the primary meny of the individuals. as a result we must support the nation that is are in the front line like egypt like jordan to be the face of the war. that will never happen. it will never happen. 61 nations, really? two muslim nations in the room, two. not 61. let's talk about the reality. and real what are arab coalition to fight on the ground will never happen unless those governments and those people trust that we are behind them all the way.
ii can assure you that those governments do not trust america today. if i were sunni, neither would i. we need to have the next commander in chief rebuild all the bridges that have been burnt, burnt to the ground because most reasonable sunnis think that america is now on the side of the shia extremist, with 150 billion nuclear deal with iran, they have drawn the conclusion that we don't care about aman, we don't care about cairo, we are on the side of the mullers, that has to be addressed. this war will not be won without us being part of the solution but with our sunni allies in the front. and lastly from the cold war, we have to have a strategic level counterpush in the propaganda.
we are literally not present on the battlefield of ideas. i'm not denigrating the word, but they are limited, they are correspondence -- coralled. we must have a white house driven that shines the light of truth against our enemy and totalitarian ideas. because today this is our prime problem, from the streets of paris, to brussels, to dabic, jihad is a lifestyle and far too popular and when you have the director of fbi openly that isis is more than 20,000 social media forms and isis is posting more than 50,000 social media postings every day, it's time
that we started to push back. it's only then that jihad becomes unsexy, unpopular, support a version of islam that portrayed by colleagues that we will eventually win this war and defeat tot al -- totaltarrians. it has lots of information about the book and everything else that we do. if you really want to know how bad the threat of isis is, the company, my wife run threat knowledge group. that's also available on line. i think that's half an hour roughly. we've got time for any questions from the floor if there being
e-mailed in, the floor is all yours. andrew, please. >> hi. i get one curious question, you mentioned a key component of your strategy trying to develop other alternative -- [inaudible] >> i guess that's sort of the 64,000-dollar question, looking for the unicorn, what sort of developments or -- >> great question. so what's worked? when have we seen arab-muslim nations represents the government or at least the rights of the individual? to be brilliant honest, i see two functioning examples, two large scaled ones.
the turkey and legacy and also the kingdom of jordan. these are the only ones that function a way that's stable and cherish the values from a whole. why is that so? what's special about these two policies? dissolved the caliphate and explicitly said everybody in the new republic of turkey can be a muslim, that's fine, but you know what, i'm going to disconnect islam and politics. he said like the founding fathers in america, you can be a muslim but that's a private issue, that cannot inform the -- karan cannot inform. separation between mosque and state was one model. state department doesn't like an idea where the states defines
what a religion can or cannot be or where the military is supposed to be protector of the republican identity. the idea that guys in uniform are supposed to be the grantors, doesn't go well with friends in the state department. and then we have the jordanians. why are they so strong allies? you have a royal family that is meant to be descended as the same as mohamed, you should do this and you shouldn't do that, that has a certain weight that somebody else doesn't have. the military, although the military and royal elite are trained well.
i have the royal members, the fact is they are socialized with western values as individuals and then they have a credential that really cannot by extremist, those are two options. one of those cannot be replicated unless you give it all to jordan. what's the last option. you've got to have an attitude legacy that is trance -- that's exactly what the president is trying to do. i have spoken to him for hours and when a man who is a devoutly muslim as he is you know he has prayer on his forehead. it's clear this is a deeply devout muslim who is trying to rescue with the question of islam and democracy.
what he tells me, look, i did what i did with brotherhood because i'm an egyptian before muslim. then you understand what he did. i'm not going to see my nation held hostage to an interpretation of islam that is straight from the seventh century. it's people because he wore a uniform. i remember there was a president, i'm eisenhower who was a soldier before he was a president, but i don't know, i'm a newly minted america, i have to bone up on these things. jim. >> yeah. before we got too far off on the jordan thing, jordan as we all know is 60% refugee and 40% live there who are jordanians, about half love america and half hate america.
so could you talk a little more, interfacing with jordan and their role they're going to play in bringing stability back to the region and in dealing with the global -- >> let me not -- thank you, jim. let me not give you my opinion, let me give you the horse's mouth. my wife and i visited jordan and we were in the refugee camp on christmas day last year. jordan has absorbed incredible amount of refugees in syria that's almost cracking the capacity of the nation to maintain economy. let me quote to you the senior, no names, senior police official who is responsible for that camp that had a huge, huge population of refugees, we are asking so how do you see this developing, show the dweg ration of the refugee into jordan working and how long can you do this, he said, look, you have to be clear
about this, we as jordanians eventually need these people to go back to the country that they came from. it's not to be forced to go and live somewhere else, it's for the conditions that force exodus to be solved that allows to go back. it makes no sense. we cannot fiscally absorb the people as a nation and what sense does it help to transport whether it's into europe or america, that's not what these people deserve. my parents may have become british citizens, when the war fell, what did my parents do? they went back to hungary, they have been force today live in exile.
as soon as the war fell, they were hungarians. trouble is jordan is a relatively small actor in the theater and has done an amazing job in absorbing as many people as it has. the long-term reality or the long-term goal of any nation concerned for these individuals is not that they try and grow roots and trance plait or pushed even further away from their homeland, but eventually they will have to go back to their nation and that will only happen with american leadership. thank you, jim. yes, please. >> thank you. thank you very much. is it feasible to separate mosque and state in the sense that in the muslim religion it's not a union of mosque and state,
it's a confusion of both things, it's the same thing? you had union of church, but it was very clear in catholic doctrine that the two work completely different. is it feasible? are we thinking about -- it stopped working, maybe because it's not workable. >> look, you raise a superb question. i don't wanting to to a rabbit hole. when the clerics said should you place taxes, jesus said, show me
a coin. render onto césar what is césar's. this is the kingdom of the césar's, obey your masters or political leaders. we don't have the moment of the render onto césar in islamic stripture. for those who have a fabulous interpretation of islam, i ask them one simple question, who was mohamed, just tell me who was mohamed? what role in the caliphate? number one he is said to be the prophet, the last prophet of god. a religious figure. number two, who is he? he is a head of state. it's completely the same.
thirdly, he's also what, a military leader wiping out tribes, you name it. read the stories. look at what is a gang sign of jihadi, you've all seen the video? he's not pointing at heaven. it's unity. one of the perfect man. mohamed is the perfect man. we have a challenge. i think until the muslim brotherhood arrives, until individuals like edgean arrive, the attitude, turkey model, where the person who has political credentials, you have elected me president, he decides what the religion is, we don't
like that, we don't like the idea that a president is going to say what you can or cannot do as a muslim, right. i don't think what the karan says, page 9, what does it say, kill the infidel. these are the words of god. well, what does that do? we don't do that anymore. i want to be a member of nato, not happening. so that's how turkey becomes turkey, eventually. so there is a way, it's fragile, dependent upon whether that political elite can maintain credentials or authority to impose its interpretation of the religion and, of course, we don't like it, we don't like it. but, again, it is arrogant that we say our culture must define
what they will do to join us in our global community. that's the ultimate arrogance. let's leave it up to people who are elected as they deal with the question. >> thank you very much. [inaudible] >> supposed to be or considered to be 1.2 to 1.3 muslims or so-called muslims. >> yeah. >> who represents the muslim states, if you have to address, you're invited to address oic, what message you will have for them, what recommendations you will have for them in case you get such a chance because
ultimately to make peace i am really from pakistan, i'm a doctor, there are 20,000 physicians from pakistan who are practicing in usa and none of the patients is there who is not appreciative of their work. >> sure. >> so how can we come -- those muslims in the goal, who can really separate with the church and the state between the mosque? >> look, asking me to address the oic is like asking my father to address the common turn, we are not going to get that invitation and it's probably pointless because i would be broadcasting on fm and they would be receiving on am, it makes no point for me to be there. if you wish to make this fantasy
real, i would say one thing, i would just ask them simply, where does the dignity of the individual come from, where does the dignity of the individual come from, what are the sources of truth for human kind, are they purely, purely revelation, can they talk to me about the role of natural law, what is their attitude to natural law, what do they think, we are getting into very special territory here. but i would like to get the oic on record where does the truth come from is it from the karan or beyond do karan because you'll see the wolf taking off its clothe, lastly, i would ask them about the role of religion in politics, all these three questions, revelation, natural law and the role of religion and politician, i ask questions, i wouldn't give them
recommendations because i think they are on the wrong trajectory. [inaudible] >> is the arrogance out of ignorance, that's a great question? it is easier to be arrogant if you're ignorant. but i don't think the people running the oic are stupid. that's a big of a mistake saying al-qaeda are just crazy people. not true. one of the biggest mistakes we make in the intelligence community and national security is to say they're just a bunch of crazies, wrong, they have a plan. read the people in my book, okay, malak, read asam, maldodi, if you read the key strategist of jihad, they aren't random. they have a strategy that's been perkulated for 70 years, the thing i wish to stress just on the point of isis, do you realize the enormity of what
happened on june 29th, 2014? i mean, this is what shocks me inside the u.s. national security establishment. when a man who has named hoims after the first righteous mohamed, walked up, preaching location and declares the reestablishment of the caliphate and himself as kalif, this is the ultimate game-changer. this isn't just packaging. this changes everything. for 90 years the extremists, the jihaddists have been trying to undo and to reaccomplish --
reestablish the caliphate. schools of organizations were created starting with the muslim brotherhood then moving onto al-qaeda, egyptian islamic jihad, all organizations on one mission, reestablishing the caliphate. all of them fail, all of them fail. what happens a year and a half ago. isis doesn't talk about it. isis does it. it is not possible to overemphasize the geostrategic where isis has failed. that's why i wrote this book. isis is at the super bowl and they're going to walk away with the ring. ..
largest attack on u.s. soil since september 11. the really scary thing is 30% of the people we have arrested have no intention of going anywhere. of them want to go to the middle east but 30% have decided that the best way to serve the new caliph is to kill infidels or u.s. soil. these are the unclassified facts of the matter of isis threat to america is today. >> could you also update folks on the state of al-qaeda today? today we just talk about isis. >> thank you. so, isis got to be really big. why? because they are obsessed with al qaeda and when abu bot or got kicked out of al-qaeda what happened? it doesn't matter. what does he do? he says i'm going to make hay while the sun shines. he takes all his fighters and two syria and builds his own
state so we are doing it again. we are obsessing on isis but al qaeda has not disappeared. al qaeda is more active than ever especially in africa. and right now there's pressure on al qaeda to do what? prove relevance. now isis is the coca-cola soft drinks. you say soft drinks in you say the big brand is isis. al qaeda has to get back in the game. either that or they have to swear by the new caliphate and i don't think ayman al zawahiri, i don't think he could quite swallow subordinating himself to his former supporters so what does al qaeda do in the meantime? he may go even bigger. if you want to prove your relevance 3000 people in two minutes may not be enough.
we have seen al qaeda look at weapons of mass destruction with great interest. remember the videos, experimenting with nerve agents and poison gases? al qaeda has not disappeared. it's very important with dr. califano did raising that issue. this is why i prefer, this asinine label the administration uses of amorphous extremism, no it's not any kind of violent extremism it jihadist it meant that much better played with the global jihad movement. we must appreciate the global jihad movement has hundreds of members and organizations, hundreds of organizations so whether you are a member of abu sayyaf illness to al qaeda these are all part of the same even the shia. that's a version of jihadist him.
it's the individuals that matter and therefore san bernardino abu bakr said they love to be. do they share the same ideology? this is the most important thing so individual share the idea of jihad whether it's the boston bomber's that means there are members of the same movement and that is the best label for global jihadi movement. sir in the middle right there. if you say that you haven't read a history book. the whirling dervish's and the
gnostic version of islam seems attractive as non-kinetic. some of the nastiest most violent sects in the history of the religion were linked to cfius him so i'm not looking for the one antidote. i'm looking for attitudes to truth, attitudes to revelation and reason and truth and also the most important question what is that definition of where dignity and human value comes from? sufi-ism certain aspects could be injected into the mold that you are not going to convert a majority sunni religion and susu theism itself so i understand the attraction not sure by itself it's a game-changer but thank you. >> i'm joe coffman with joe bridenstine's office.
it's not difficult to understand having read the koran and islamic movement from its outset why we are seeing what we are seeing in the islamic world today. i do find it difficult to understand the response of the current administration and previous administrations to the threat. how can we best put that in the proper context? >> i knew -- i have nine minutes. how did the obama administration get to where it is today? i have two answers. one has to do with roland when is it do with intelligence analysis. when you have a political country that looks at itself as very sophisticated, very modern, postmodern if you will than what is your attitude to religion and? religion is just a power shift
by guys in skirts whatever. even if you go to church it's a social club. if you go on capitol hill you say i meet people afterwards and over donuts and coffee. if your attitude is religion is there are postmodern secular you want not understand this foreign care what religion you are. i realize in the first few years working for the defense department if you don't have real faith i don't care if you are a buddhist art -- if you don't have faith, real faith you will never understand jihadis. if you look at the unedited versions it's not just craziness but when it man takes seven minutes to set for another human being's head from his neck that commitment to a cause that doesn't come from a paycheck. number one it's secular attitude to religion. you simply cannot absorb it and secondly there's a moment in
history we have to address. there's an individual who was an academic specializing in radical islam who was hired by the national counterterrorism center. you can read this in my white paper the science behind the counterterrorism strategy, the flawed strategy, the flawed science behind america's strategy. this individuals sold the white house on this analysis. in the world of radical islam there are two groups that believe in the caliphate, the brotherhood that will use non-kinetic means to establish it like stealing elections or whatever and people like al qaeda that will actually kill you or blow you up. this man and his wife as the only way to save america from the next 9/11 is to negotiate with the brotherhood and empower them because only the brotherhood can save us from al
qaeda. the problem is of course one, they both want caliphate. they both want to destroy the west and we are helping people like morsi because we think they are going to kill us later? but this is really it. secondly giving power to a group that is as extreme as the jihadis. they just have a different methodology but we can talk for hours about why the frustration is where it is. >> wait for the microphone. >> i'm john utley with the american conservative. i've also written about an american strategy and effectively search the internet my article is number one and two
i listed all the violations and recommendations of how to win one of which is the last resort, not the first and other things have recommended that my question is about saudi arabia. so anyway -- and turkey were helping isis. the money comes from saudi arabia and the other one funds all of this extremism all over the place and we continually say we are their buddies. we started in yemen killing thousands of innocent people. we provide aerial refueling and intelligence to the saudi's. >> so your question? >> it all comes from saudi arabia and there are muslim countries but saudi arabia.
>> okay, a question? >> please address those issues. >> i'm not in a position to address foreign-policy with saudi arabia but in the book i deal explicitly with the most important year in the birth of modern jihad and that's 1979. if you want to understand our very confused relationship with saudi arabia and why saudi arabia is a schizophrenic nation you have to understand the siege of mecca. i'm going to steal my own thunder. the book is available outside but the siege of mecca by jihadi extremists against their fellow muslims led to it bargained being brought between the house of saud. it's a long story but it's in the book. thank you for the question. [applause] [inaudible conversations]
was go in your book you write that america is the worlds biggest jail. tesco we have 5% of the world's population but 25% of the world risen population. 2.3 million people incarcerated. we are spending over $50 billion a year on corrections and when it comes to the racial disparities of our system or more african-americans under correctional supervision today than there were slaves at the
height of slavery in 1850. >> host: how did we get there? >> guest: well it all goes back to the war on drugs in many respects, which began in the late 70s and created a whole series of disparities in sentencing and goes back sentencing laws that have made it easier for people to go to jail, easier for them to stay there and easier for them to stay there for extended periods of time. >> host: you are a native new yorker and there was a period in the 70s where new york was pretty rife with crime. people were scared. was there a different solution? >> guest: for one fear is a terrible, fear is not the thing to be ruled by when we make efficient -- decisions as far as governance and how these kinds of things go because fear that to act irrationally and what happened was the fear was played upon in prison was presented en masse incarceration was presented as the only possible
alternative in the way to deal with crime. we know that there is no correlation to train a drop in crime rates and some massive incarceration. we know there are other routes. it have to be this route towards mass incarceration. >> host: we are california the home of three strikes and you're out. has that been effective in any way? >> guest: hardly. california, three strikes and you're out where the rockefeller drug laws and a whole host of other sentencing laws that have landed again millions of people in jails and prisons and under correctional supervision. trading -- and draining our resources and draining us of the value of these human beings who could be attributing contributed to society in all kinds of ways.