tv Key Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN May 10, 2016 8:00pm-10:34pm EDT
reporting that republican donald trump winning the primary there with the primary also going on in nebraska. polls closing there in about an hour or so. we'll keep you posted on results. bernie sanders, meanwhile, expected to win that west virginia primary. he's in oregon tonight speaking to supporters in salem, oregon. we'll have live coverage of that at 10:00 eastern x that'll be over on c-span. earlier today the senate foreign relations committee held a hearing on counterterrorism efforts in sub-saharan africa. they heard testimony from officials representing the state department and the united nations. senator bob corker of tennessee is the chair. it's two and a half hours. [inaudible conversations]
>> call the senate foreign relations committee to order. we thank our witnesses for being here, and i'm looking forward to your testimony. as much of the world concentrates on the isis threat and instability in the middle east, the committee takes this opportunity to consider efforts by the united states and other partners to counter extremism in the sub-saharan african area. long-term development has been the norm across much of africa including here -- tell you what. ben, even with large letters i can't see anymore. [laughter] including here in our committee with the recent signing of the power africa legislation, which we're all very proud of and appreciate the way the administration has led on that effort also, that we hope will help bring investment to a key sector for economic growth and opportunity. whereas in the middle east we have been reacting to abhorrent
state and terrorist violence and the uprooting of millions of people, in africa we've had the opportunity of years of influence through diplomacy and development and partnerships to improve outcomes. however, violent extremism is not a new phenomenon in africa. three subregions have exploded with terrorist elements some decades old. al-shabaab and its predecessors have long troubled somalia and its neighbors in east africa including attacks on american embassies in 1998. al-qaeda in the islamic maghreb have evolved since 9/11 into a vicious regional threat across the a sahel and beyond, and they have fought the algerian government since 1991. boko haram which was,. >> has declared allegiance to isis will stop at nothing to carry out its grotesque attacks against civilians in communities across nigeria and the late chad basin. all three of these conflicts have drawn international
intervention and resources because of terrorist elements involved which are seen as aspiring to the kind of international terrorism perpetrated by al-qaeda and isis. and some are beginning to show increased sophistication in attacks. beyond these three conflict and terrorist-ridden regions are several complex crises this breed on instability brought on by many factors, the most egregious of which appears to be the almost complete lack of government responsibility for its citizens through corruption and greed rather than any lack of resources. this includes most recently south sudan and the central african republic. and, of course, the decades-long atrocities in the democratic republic of congo. all three of which have cost billions of dollars to mitigate through massive peacekeeping operations. while the world seeks ways to address the direct threat of e emergent terrorist groups in
reaction mode, we have had a chance and still do to improve the prospects for many countries in africa by leveraging long-term relationships and development. i'm also concerned that there are efforts to gain traction and destabilizing other countries we consider relatively stable now. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses today the lessons that they have drawn from their direct engagement in these regions, and i hope to better understand what the underlying factors are that contribute to the terrorist threat in the region and what u.s. efforts have been made to build a better response across the whole of government and with partners in the international community. with that, i'll turn to our distinguished ranking member, ben cardin. >> chairman corker, thank you very much for convening this hearing on terrorism, instability in sub sahara africa. i agree with your assessments. the amount of violence in this region escalating is a major concern and requires the
attention of this committee, of the united states senate and the american people. i also agree with you that there are multiple reasons for the instability and crisis in this region but that there is a common theme of poor governance. and that's an issue that provides a vacuum, and that vacuum is usually filled with instability and recruitment of extremists. so i very much agree with you this is an area of growing concern in regards to the amount of violence that is taking place and one that requires us to put a focus on the governance structures in the countries of sub-sahara africa. and it's true. it's from west africa to the lake chad basin to east africa. west africa, circumstances in mali, we find the marginalization of ethnic groups
that have become now a home for at least five active terrorist groups, breeding ground for terrorist recruitment. the u.n. mission in america ali is -- mali is the most deadliest peacekeeping mission that we have anywhere. that is, should be a sign that things need to change in regards to mali. we have the parties coming forward for a peace agreement, well, we need to see immediate attention to that and see whether, in fact, that peace agreement can be implemented. in the lake chad basin in nigeria is of particular concern. boko haram, which has pledged its allegiance to isis -- we'll see how, in fact, that alliance takes place or not -- but we do know it is extremely deadly, the number of deaths have escalated dramatically, 15,000 since 2009.
2.4 million displaced people, 5.6 million in need of food. and these numbers are shocking in their size, but i think the world became engaged in this when 200 schoolgirls were kidnapped and yet their fate today is still not known. in east africa, in somalia, we have to pay careful attention. we know that. and in all of these regions, there's a common denominator of lack of good governance. this year in somalia it's said to be a critical one for consolidation of the somali state a. constitutional referendum and completion of the federal system are supposed to occur. absent the establishment of a fully-functioning, transparent and inclusive government it will be difficult, if not impossible, to eliminate the threat posed byal-shabaab. while the threats have been clearly identified, what is not as evident is whether the united
states is consistently applying a comprehensive approach countering violent extremism in africa, one which adequately addresses key drivers of radicalization such as political and economic marginalization, corruption and whether steps have been taken to build the type of capacity in the african country to counter the violent extreme activities. i hope today's hearing will help us all better understand the package of programs and activities we are bringing to bear to combat terrorism and violent extremism in africa and what, if any, efforts the administration is making to fully integrate principles of democracy, corruption and good governance into our approach. security assistance alone will not win the battle. mr. chairman, let me quote from deputy secking stair of -- secretary of state tony blinken who recently said, quote: a fight over time that will be won in the classrooms, in the house of worship, on social media, at
community centers, at sites of cultural heritage, on the sports fields and within the homes of people in every corner of the planet. end quote. given how significantly underfunded governance programs have been in africa, i don't see how we could be reaching that threat where it is. but there are two steps we can take right away to do so. first, it's a point aye been making to the administration for nearly a year. it is critical that we increase investment in democracy and governance such as are commensurate with our security assistance funding. in fy-15, the last year for which figures are available, we allocated approximately $1 billion for security assistance and only $170 million for democracy and governance. i hope that you have -- the hope that as you discuss allocations for fy-16 with the appropriators, you will indicate you will meet the $312 million democracy and governance in
africa culled in the omnibus report language. and i hope we have a chance to talk about that. secondly, the united states must signal to our partners that our support does not come at the expense of democracy and human rights. i think we have sent the wrong signals about our priorities by failing to support human rights and democracy activities in ethiopia. it is critical that we take the prime minister up on his offer from last july to work with us on improving democracy in ethiopia. in addition, we should be assured that our security assistance includes support for military and civilian institutions, that support accountability for counterterrorism partner countries with weak democracy and human rights records. so, mr. chairman, i hope that during the course of this hearing we're going to hear from our administration officials exactly what is our coordinated strategy? yes, we want to fight extremism. we have to do that. we have to have the military security assistance. but if you don't have in place the type of governance that represent the concerns of the
population, there will be instability and avoidance which extremists will capitalize on. i look forward to our discussion. >> thank you very much for those comments. i want to introduce all three witnesses, and then if you'd just speak in the order that you're introduced, i would appreciate it. our first is linda thomas greenfield, assistant secretary for african affairs at the department of state. welcome. our second witness is linda etim, assistant administrator for africa at usaid. thank you for being here. our third witness is justin -- [inaudible] no, no -- [laughter] need a little help here. seebrow, acting coordinator for terrorism at the department of state. we want to thank you all for being here, for your service to our country, and if you could summarize your comments in about five minutes, that would be great. without objection, your written testimony will be entered into
the record, so thank you. >> mr. chairman, ranking member cardin and distinguished members of the committee, let me thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. i have a very brief oral statement, and i've provided a more comprehensive written statement for the record. africa's home to the world's youngest and fastest growing population. it presents significant opportunities for transformation and growth as well as many challenges. the overall trends in sub-saharan africa point to accelerated democratization -- sorry democratization, development and economic opportunity. although africa remains the world's least developed continent, average, real, per capita income increased steadily over the last decade and a half. however, in spite of these positive trends, instability and conflict persist in parts of
africa. this instability has a direct bearing on u.s. national interests and those of our closest allies. terrorists, narcotic traffickers and a range of transnational criminal organizations exploit state from jilt and conflict. conflict destabilizes states and borders, it stifles economic growth, and it robs young africans of the opportunity for education and a better life. while attacks in brussels and paris and even in san bernardino offer tragic reminders that terrorism can happen anywhere, africa has critical vulnerabilities and capacity gaps that must be addressed. therefore, we're working with our african partners to increase their a abilities, to prevent and respond to such threats and to address the conditions that perpetrate the cycles of instability and conflict across the continent. addressing instability in africa requires a comprehensive and a balanced approach as you have
stated. we cannot focus solely on the security aspects of the solution. military, intelligence and law enforcement tools are vital to defend a range of threats, but they cannot replace robust diplomacy and the hard work required to strengthen democratic institutions. to stimulate economic growth, trade and investment and promote development, education and broad-based economic opportunity. state department, usaid and the department of defense, known as the three ds, and several other agencies offer unique exing per tease and capabilities -- expertise and capabilities, and it is essential that each organization has the tools to contribute to our common objectives of building immediate and long-term stability in africa. as you stated, senator cardin, civilitybegins with building stable and strong democratic processes, addressing individual and collective grievances
created by lack of governmental accountability, corruption, denial of basic human rights and feelings of political inclusion is not just the right thing for governments and civic leaders to do, it is a security imperative. stability in africa ultimately requires leaders with the will and the capacity to respond to the needs and aspirations of their people. we continue to stay focused on supporting free, fair and transparent elections that are inclusive and representative. we've seen major electoral successes during the past several years, but there have been some setbacks as well. however, democratic governance is not only about elections. national and local governments must deliver essential services for their people; civil society and a free press must be empowered. independent judiciaries must enforce rule of law, and professional security forces must respect human rights.
president obama, president obama has also highlighted that the most urgent task facing africa today and for decades ahead is to create opportunity for the next generation. young people constitute a majority of africa's population and stand to gain or lose tremendously based on the continent's social, political and economic trajectory. they also represent the next generation of african leaders. they must be empowered to contribute to their country's future so that they are not enticed by extremist ideologies. president obama has warned about the vulnerabilities, and i quote: the vulnerabilities of people entirely trapped in impoverished communities where there is no order and no path for advancement, where there are no educational opportunities, where there are no ways to support families and no escapes from justice and the humiliation of corruption that feeds instability and disorder and
makes these communities rife for extremist recruitment, unquote. we know that groups like boko haram, al-shabaab, al-qaeda and associated groups often ensnare their foot soldiers by simply offering cash or a promise of financial reward for themselves and for their families. it's vital that governments, sometimes in partnership with the private sector, use every available resource to offer educational and vocational opportunities that provide alternatives to these lethal traps. we also recognize that strengthening the security and justice institutions of our african partners is vital for long-term stability on the con innocent. continent. so as a consequence, we're partnering with african countries, with organizations, with people to develop capable, professional security services, improve security sector governance and enhance regional coordination for more effective responses. once again, i thank you for the
opportunity to peek to you, and i -- to speak to you, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you very much. go ahead. >> good morning, chairman corker. good morning, ranking member cardin and all the members of the committee. and i also thank you for this opportunity to discuss usaid's work on this very important topic. throughout africa, u.s. national interests and our efforts in promoting resilient, democratic societies and to increase economic opportunities for people are increasingly threatened by the instability and the threat of violent extreme im. we believe, and as this committee has already stated, that development programming can be a powerful tool to prevent conflict and infable. conflict and instability impede development, they slow investment, they prevent children from attending schools -- as we've seen in northern nigeria -- they place additional burdens on already-fragile health care systems as we've seen in the ebola response case, and they undermine political systems. we also know that activities are
designed to reduce opportunities for extremists to exploit economic inequality, the lack of political integration, and we need to actually make sure that these activities help to advance development programming throughout the countries. the data i'll try to discuss are programs which are based on strategic thinking and evidence-based, results-oriented approaches, but i'll also touch on the importance of usaid's governance program which seek to reduce corruption and institutional weaknesses that can often foster instability. when we look at the drivers, experience has taught us that responding to military conflicts that erupt in fragile states by deploying large peacekeeping missions or large-scale and often far too long-term humanitarian responses are very costly. for that reason, whenever usaid designs its program or country strategy, we use our analytic capabilities and knowledge of the local context to reduce the
drivers of from jilt. these assessments consider the push factors that drive support for violent extremism such as social fragmentation, a sense of injustice, perceptions of marginalization and distrust of government. we also try to address the pull factors that can attract those who are vulnerable to violent extremism. this analysis helps to shape our intervention to promote good governor answer and rule of law and respect for human rights as well as sustainable, inclusive development. we don't have one single answer as to a what causes violent extremism. a decade of analysis has shown there's a strong correlation between state fragility, feelings of injustice, marginalization as being drivers of violent extremism. in 2011usaid issued a policy which we entitled the development response to violent extremism and insurgency. this recognized development's role in advancing u.s. national security.
our activities, therefore, are designed to mitigate these drivers by increasing resiliency at all levels. at the individual level, we target marginalized communities, particularly youth, through employment, outreach programs, vocational training skills and community development activities. at the local level, we focus on social cohesion activities, peace committees, to build stronger, more resill gent communities. at the national level, usaid has an important role in strengthening government institutions and their ability to deliver basic services, but also to encourage inclusion and better transparticipant city. transparency. youth are a key demographic in our programming, and while this is no one profile, unemployed youth who are university graduates or who have no expectations and have lived through or participated in conflict can be at the greatest risk. therefore, our programming focuses on this important demographic. in kenya, for example, 75% of the population is under 30 years of age.
there are general -- through our generation kenya program, we offer targeted training to at-risk populations, closing the gap between young people who are out of work and employers short of employees with skills. generation kenya plans to place more than 50,000 young people in stable careers by 2020. going forward, usaid will expand this programming into violent extremism hot spots working hand in hand with communities, local and national governments and the private sector to insure or its success. in niger, our peace through development process produces and delivers original radio content which is aimed at terrorist marketing. it reaches over 1.7 million people in 40 of the most at-risk communities. we've also engaged nearly 100,000 people through civic ex, moderate voice promotion and youth empowerment-themed events. these programs, we believe, increase citizens' engagement with the government and decrease
incentives for young people to take part in illegal or extremist activities. in conclusion, instability is often the product of generations of neglect and corruption, and its resolution, therefore, will be the product of generations of concerted focus, legitimate engagement and met expectations. because trends in extremism are fluid, we know that we must constantly reassess our priorities, our progress and our policies to insure that our work is actually based on the realities of today. through program assessments, implementations and evaluations, we are learning what works and what does not work. we're improving best practices, and we're helping individuals and communities to address these drivers of instability and violent extremism on their own. through the work of you are missions in the -- our missions in the field and through usaid-supported resource centers. our commitment is evidenced, but we know that we can't do it alone. sustained engagement with strong partners through the departments of state and defense, through the work that your committee is
doing here and with donor governments as well as with our partners in the religious communities, local governments, civil society organizations, all of these different groups on the ground who will be key to combating extremism key, and they'll be key also to securing peace and stability for years to come. i thank you, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you so much. >> mr. chairman, ranking member cardin and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. as outlined in our statement for the record be, a number of terrorist groups remain active in sub-saharan africa including al-shabaab, al-qaeda in the islamic maghreb and bow coe that rem, also known as islamic state west africa province. regional military forces with the united states and international assistance have made progress against all of these terrorist groups. terrorist safe havens in somalia, northern mali and the lake chad basin have been
degraded significantly. however, in the face of this pressure these groups have shifted to more asymmetric tactics including attacks against soft targets. we've seen this dynamic in west africa recently over the recent months aqim have carried out a series of attacks against or international hotels and tourist sites in mali, burkina faso and coat da story. we've seen shabaab become increasingly aggressive against high profile targets in somalia and across the border in kenya. we were also concerned about the risk that isil's threats may grow in the don't innocent. isil -- continent. as well as local insurgencies and conflicts to expand its networks and advance its agenda. we are watching these dynamics closely, we are working with partners to contain and drive back isil-affiliated groups
wherever they may emerge. the united states has committed to building and sustaining partnerships across africa that counter terrorism and promote stability. partnerships are at the core of our approach. and this is reflected in our interagency efforts as well through the partnership for regional east africa counterterrorism and the trans-saharadown terrorism partnership. mr. chairman, the united states is providing significant support for regional military operations. through our diplomacy, the department of state continues to encourage regional leadership and cooperation to sustain these efforts. military efforts alone are insufficient, however. as we deal with the evolving threat environment, the success of our counterterrorism efforts in africa increasingly depends upon capable and responsible -- and responsive civilian partners; police, prosecutors, judges, prison officials and community leaders who can help address terrorist challenges within a sustainable and rule-of-law framework that
respects human rights. in this regard, the department of state is training and mentoring law enforcement units for more than 15 african countries. we are building their capacity to prevent and respond to terrorist incidents, conduct terrorism-related investigations and improve land, border and aviation security. we are also providing significant assistance for african prosecutors and courts to effectively and expeditiously handle terrorism cases. we are working to enhance the capacity of prisons in africa to effectively handle terrorist inmates in accordance with international human rights standards. mr. chairman, we greatly appreciate the funding provided infiscal year 2015 for the counterterrorism partnership fund. this funding will enable us to expand our assistance for law enforcement and justice sector efforts in key african countries. at the same time, the department and usaid are increasing our focus on preventing the spread of violent extremism in the fist place. to stop the recruitment, mobilization of people,
especially young people, to engage in terrorist activities. we are expanding engagement with african partners to better understand the drivers of violent extremism in order to design effective responses. this includes promoting greater trust and partnership between communities and law enforcement. the president's fiscal year 2017 budget request includes increased resources for counter violent extremism programs including an additional $59 million as part of our overall request under the counterterrorism partnership's fund. these resources would enable us to expand programs in africa, to engage communities and youth susceptible to violent extremist recruitment. mr. chairman, there is no single solution to defeat terrorist groups and promote stability in africa. the challenges are significant. but we believe we have committed partners in africa who are making progress. we believe we will be most effective in the long run with a comprehensive approach that promotes regional cooperation, the rule of law and good governance. we continue to look for ways to enhance this approach, and we
appreciate the strong support of congress for these efforts. thank you. >> thank you, all. let me just start by setting context here. if you look at the regions that weaver discussing today -- we're discussing today, and you look at the number of deaths, displacements, the scale of what's happening in these three regions and other places throughout africa really, over the course of time, is as large as the scale of terrorist activities in the middle easts, is that correct? .. the number of people have been killed are as large as if not larger than the people have been
killed by isis in the last year. there is a devastating impact and it is reflected in the numbers of people killed and impacted by terrorism and africa. >> no disagreement from the other witnesses. >> no. >> let me ask you this. there's tremendous there's tremendous focus in the middle east, we have had a lot of hearings here, most of us on the other hand have traveled throughout africa and have seen a tremendous threat to stability there. why do you think the world focus is marceau on areas like the middle east and less so on areas like the regions we are talking about right now in africa? >> i will offer my thoughts mr. chairman. i think with the case of isil, they emanate from al qaeda in iraq and so there has been a focus in particular on that conflict ongoing.
that is of course devastated those societies as well, and continues to. that of course built off of the historic origins of al qaeda from the middle east in that region, so i think think from a terrorism perspective the focus has generally been on that region as the core area where these threats have come from. it is not as just noted when you look at actual violence the groups in africa are committing extreme amounts of violence, boca her on a particular has targeted civilians and we report these, it is consistently in the top ranks of terrorist groups in terms of committing violence and destabilizing entire regions those are as great in the
african continent but generally speaking. >> but for what region. >> i think for isil it is appropriate to focus on the core area where that group has a come from and that is the main f against isil. in many ways when look at the spread of isil preventing that will depends on defeating the group in its core homeland. so, therefore the focus on that regard and that core area is appropriate. >> any other comments? >> i would just say that much of the terrorism that we saw in the past on the continent of africa tended to be focused on africa. there is not the comparable threat to the homeland from
terrorists in africa as we see in the middle east. but i think we have all come to the conclusion that terrorism anywhere affects us everywhere. we have to address it not just in the middle east but in africa as well. >> so the core central beginnings if you will of this threat, emanated from the middle east and so hitting areas were specially they are establishing caliphate has been important. secondly, the groups in africa have not been seen as a threat to western entities, with that be a a fair assessment of the focus? >> i would say initially. we are seeing more and more that this does have an impact on us. when we look at the attacks on molly, americans were victims. >> i would just add that these
groups evolved out of the particular context in africa but have been co-opted or joined up with transnational terrorist groups. al shabab which began out of the islamic courts group in somalia, later affiliated with al qaeda and of course was part of al qaeda's global agenda and that has been a significant concern of the u.s. security community because of the foreign fighter element that has traveled it to somalia including american citizens. it's been a concern concern that al shabab representing an al qaeda affiliate does also potentially advanced al qaeda gender. similarly with the trend to there's been great concern to look at the group to determine whether they will have more targeted interest even more externally. >> i will save the rest of my time for interjection interjection.
>> i think all of our panelist for all of their work in a very challenging assignment. as as i have said in my opening statement there is no simple solution to the violence that is ki taking place in the terrorism that is taking place. clearly we need a security response including direct support against terrorism. i strongly support that. but as each pointed out the recruitment of terrorists is because there is a void. there are individuals who feel they have no other choice and they are vying for recruitment. my my concern is, are we giving countries a free pass who are partners in our counterterrorism campaigns, on human rights and
poor governance? i say that and can give you many examples. in ethiopia they just had a parliamentary election, not a single opposition leader of the person was elected. we have seen the security forces there who have killed hundreds of protesters. in chad we have dozen of military officers who have been arrested because they would not vote for the president. in somalia we have a report in yesterday's washington post that they are using children for spies. we have extrajudicial killings by the military in nigeria and kenya. yet i do not race see a response by the them u.s. in regards to these activities. are we giving them a free pass question what should we be giving them a free pass? pass? >> thank you for that question senator. and every one of the cases that you mentioned we condemned human
rights abuses. we regularly regularly condemn those abuses by security forces of a government. we make clear to to these governments that this is a core value for the united states. at the same time, we are committed to firmly working with our partners to address efforts to defeat terrorism. we cannot draw a line essay we are not going to work with you on terrorism because of human rights violations we reinforcement these governments on a regular basis that they must respect human rights, civil liberties. >> how do you do that? how do do you reinforce that they must? >> we start with a diplomatic discussion in the case of ethiopia we had intense discussion with that government over the past year. you may know that as a result of those discussions we are having a human rights dialogue being led by her system secretary for
human rights, tom -- with the ethiopians. it's a challenge. we do not not always get our messages through to them. but they are hearing that these are concerns. in many cases they are upset that we are expressing concerns about human rights. >> would you share with me in this committee the specific methods you have used to transmit your concerns on human rights violations and lack of democratic progress. i would be interested in that. i see the strong voice of the united states on counterterrorism issues which i expect to see and want to continue to see. i have not seen the same degree of effort and energy in regards to concerns on the poor governments and violations of human rights. >> first of all we start with our embassies.
with our ambassadors, engaging with governments. >> that is a pretty quiet usually. >> sometimes it is quiet and sometimes are but investors do not get meetings because they're not quite, they are very public in their expression of concerns. it also occurs through meetings i have on a regular basis with heads of state. it is at the top of the agenda. they pushed back, back, they say we do not respect them as partners because we are raising human rights concerns. we do do not understand the situation in their countries. my response has always been, please please understand this is the core value for us. we also work with their militaries in terms of providing human rights training. we fund those that directly. we do lay he that tien on a number of countries, affect all countries that we are involved in doing any military training with. there have been some countries
where we have had to make the hard decision not to work with their military and security services because they have committed human rights -- >> the security system budgets in africa have gone up from a half a billion dollars to 1,000,000,000 dollars. the democracy government has fallen in that. of time. i would think that democracy and governance is a clear indication of our commitment on the governance of human rights. there is certainly a shortage of funds, there's no question about that. i would like to see a larger pie for a global effort and of these areas. as i understand it a large amount of decision as to how those funds are allocated are based upon who is the most effective and advocating for knee. have we been ineffective in advocating for democracy and governance? >> i would like to say no because it is the top of my
agenda. >> why is there a decline in those funds? >> i am not an appropriate or, if i were i would be -- >> a lot of this is a complicit operation between the people at the state department and appropriators. >> from the africa bureau's standpoint, senator your speaking to the choir. i do not have a knife resources and i think usaid will agree with me on that. we could use more resources in that area. we know that putting money toward democracy and governance, putting money toward good elections, putting money toward building the capacity of civil society contributes to making countries more stable and respect for human rights. we make strong cases from our standpoint to support democracy
funding so that we have that funding to implement the program. >> i would just urge you to do this in a way is visible to those of us who support your efforts. quite frankly we do not see that. we are sending our own messages as loudly as we can including at this hearing that we want to see greater funds for democracy and governance. if we do not get the feedback from what is happening in the missions, it makes our job much more difficult. it looks like that countries are getting a free pass as long as they are on our coalition team, what they do it in their own culture a little important to our foreign policy mission. which eat the way your talking mistress the opposite. so showing so showing that, not just by quiet diplomatic contact , but how we are making that point with certainly i think help us in accomplishing our mutual desire for good governance. >> good. thank you.
>> thank you mr. chairman. can you tell me what happened to joseph kony? >> he is still out there. there has been a very strong and proactive efforts against the lre. we have been working with the eight you and with the ugandans another partners. we were able to get his number two who is now currently in the hague being tried. but tony has been elusive. our efforts continue very robustly to get him. the job is not over until that is done. >> one time we committed 100 special trips of forces to go after kony, are they still the play question my. >> i think they are. i cannot give you the exact numbers but i did meet with the team when i was in uganda the last time. they are still working there. >> although not recognized as an institutional terrace there probably no worse terrace than
joseph kony in terms of children and women. i am glad we are still committed to try to bring justice as hard as that appears to be. talk about the african for union for a minute. did they address the issue of terrorism, do they have a game plan to deal terrorism? >> we are working very closely with the african union on terrorism on the continent. it is high on their agenda. in the case of nigeria, they they have been very much a part of the creation of the multinational joint task force in chad. we we have provided then some funding and some assistance in their efforts there. it is the mission in somalia, it is an au mission and it is the largest au mission on the continent of africa with troop contributing countries from the region. it is high on their agenda. we are partnering with them along with our european colleagues to make sure they have the capacity and the funding to address what
has been a very challenging and difficult threat for them as well as us in the continent. >> and then we use human rights issues and labor rights issues and the approval of participation with the united states never can countries. i was in the eight you three years ago we chastise swaziland for their labor lack of humanity and we use that as a predicate for them staying in the african -- are we leveraging our trade power and our economics as much as we should in africa? particularly in terms of terrorism. >> we are. swaziland is still not a part of ago up. we regularly send letters of warning to countries if they are not on the right side of human rights and caring for their people. ago is very important for them.
it is huge leverage. in many cases it has worked to get governments to term policies around. if they have not we have kicked them out. >> i know we do on other issues do we do it on fighting terrorism as well? we do. but we do understand that they have a challenge. they have a capacity challenge. there are also other challges that i mentioned in senator cordon mentioned in his statement. lack of government minutes, corruption that has limited the capacity of government to fight terrorism. i think they'll have all have come to understand that they do not fight terrorism they will not be around to do anything else. they have come to that very strong realization that they have to partner with their neighbors as well as with the international community to ensure that terrorists do not take over their countries. >> china invest a lot of money for their own benefit in africa and extracts a lot of minerals and raw materials to build roads
and highways, do we we ever engage with the chinese on the issue terrorism on the continent of africa to get them to help the continent? >> we do. i was in china about four weeks ago for our annual consultation with the chinese. that was on our agenda. usaid usaid was there recently as well on consultations to look at how we can better coordinate with the chinese on what they're doing in africa, both economically and politically. >> my experience is that terrorism flourishes when there's a presence of no education, poverty, and that disease, and lack a pope. africa is probably the poster child for those qualifications. the more we can do like the africa bill in the water bill that we have done here the food security bill, the more we can uplift the african people the better fight we can have against terrorism. is that fair assessment?
>> i will turn to my colleague at usaid, but i absolutely agree with you. >> i will agree, but i also say that we have data that shows that this is actually the case. we see that where ten years of research over all of these countries that usaid has worked in has shown very clear evidence that when we see governments actually able to deliver services such as energy, access to electricity, education, healthcare, healthcare, there's a core bounding decrease in the amount of feelings of marginalization, feelings of inclusion, and, and we have also seen that those countries are usually not the same as that are correlated with conflict and instability. it has been very clear that there is also a clear correlation be where there is an absence of delivery systems and word people do feel marginalized and have access to opportunities that those countries are at risk and it is very clearing. a link between violent extremism,
that's the next step. when step. when you are engaged in conflict your sympathy of going the next level is not as far a stretch. so we know that these are things that actually matter. we know that development is actually a very important tool in the space. >> for my observation it appears that where we have made challenge compact and we have helped build the structure of these countries has been less of a presence of terrorism in those countries where we didn't. i think that is a good thing for us to continue to invest money. i'm a big support in our engagement on that. thank you very much for service all that. >> thank you. i have about a minute and a half freezer. i'm just going to ask you a quick question. all of us are very proud of the work that we have done in food aid reform, clean water, and we have other efforts that are underway. very private that work.
i appreciate you mentioning the benefit that is to people, mass numbers of people, millions of people. on the other hand, to bring up a topic that i think senator alluded to and you just did a minute ago, when we work with governments that we know are abusing their own citizens, they are corrupt. they're absolutely subjective this uses two terrible atrocities themselves, those governments. those governments. when we work with them to counterterrorism, how does that work against u.s. interest relative to causing many to harbor ill will against the u.s. itself. by scene is associated with governments that are corrupt and not treating their citizens appropriately. >> i think we have to work with governments to fight terrorism. we also have to continue to work
with these governments to address human rights deficiencies in their countries. i think the people of those countries water to continue to engage. they they wanted voices to be heard. they know that when we are engaging with these governments that we are also raising concerns about human rights, we have gotten some people released from jail, we have gotten some governments to moderate their actions against her citizens. it is not a perfect solution but i truly believe that our engagements with them help on the issues of human rights. our engagement, i will give the example where we believe that the military emperor randy has been less active and violence against citizens because of our
engagement with them. because of the human rights training that they got from our people working closely with them. the governments has been a problem. we have seen that that military has been less of a problem that most people expected. >> just to add to, in addition to what was noted earlier that all of our civilian delivered assistance is subject to requirements orbiting under the leahy law, we work with governments to strengthen their rule of law framework in which they would carry out effective counterterrorism policy. we reject the notion that there is a inherent conflict in effective counterterrorism and
protection of human rights of the people. we have worked to embody that concept in what is known as the robot memorandum which is a document the united states government help to develop through the global counterterrorism form. this is the basis of assistance that we deliver increasingly across the continent in cooperation with the department of justice. prosecutors that we fund from the state department that work with governments to establish strong, ct legislation legislation but to protect the human rights of the people. this is a major challenge in africa. i would say that on the one hand you have partners willing and capable that need a lot more assistance to become fully capable to fight terrorism challenges. but they have we governments structures. this is where where we have to strengthen those structures of government so that as they conduct military led security led operations to detain terrorists and to prevent terrorist attacks they do so in a framework that enables for
those people to be prosecuted and detained effectively with accordance of national human rights standards. it's a long-term effort but we are very much engaged in that currently. >> thank you. >> thank you mr. chairman very much i'm just going to follow up with senators points which is that nigeria's people most need help with governance and corruption issues, the united states is planning to sell the government attacked aircraft known as the a 29 super -- to nigeria. it would be to fight trant trant >> just last month the international accused the nigerian army of killing hundreds of members of the shia minority sect in december.
unfortunately that is happening in other countries in east africa as well. so what is your perspective on that? given the fact that the people of nigeria increasingly are seen usaid move from humanitarian or anticorruption efforts over to more military aid for those who they believe internally are the one where a greater risk of the security of their families. >> are eight is not moving away from corruption. the the new president nigeria has made clear that corruption is one of his highest priorities. he named named three priorities when he came into power. that was dealing with a bogle rom and dealing with the economy. we are are working very closely with the government. in fact the secretary is in london at a meeting hosted by the ukraine on corruption and president bihari is there. on the issue of assisting the
nigerians in fighting trant trant we were concerned about their ability to use those and not have an impact on their communities. >> let me ask you question another way. if there is no success in convincing the people of nigeria that the government is not corrupt, that their government is not fair, will any of this military aid ultimately create the conditions for a successful effort to defeat trant we absole
good governance. we cannot do both. we cannot we cannot do one or the other or we will fail. it will be long-term. i have to say the nigerian people want us there to assist them on the security side as well. they know that their government doesn't have the capacity alone. >> internally, how do you think it will affect the views of the people as we increase military aid to the very people they fear , how do you think that will affect how they perceive the united states is playing in nigeria and what could be the consequences of that if that persist. >> it shows that we are extremely popular in nigeria. the nigerian people are victims of trant they know there has to
be some kind of security they want us there to help our military and they think that ife to help it will be less abusive to the people. that is a point that we've made we are training to battalions of soldiers and they have human rights training and all of them have been leahy vetted. we are working with the government to moderate and stop human rights abuses by the military. on the security side i think then nigeria people who are victims of the boko haram want to see us address of the security threat they're facing. >> i just think we are on the thin edge here. we just have to be very careful especially the government does not control adequately its own military.
i think it's in part that it does for the overall morale inside the country. it makes it much more difficult -- i think we need to keep an eye on that. and congo there is significance political tension because the president there is trying to prolong his stay beyond to the constitutional two-term limit. his security agents are harassing opposition politicians in a very serious way. mass protests and a parent to remain in office appears eminent. so what is ultimately the likelihood that such protests could spark further instability particularly of security forces continue to crackdown in response to these democratic instincts that people have as has been the case in the past. i sent a letter to secretary carey in february suggesting that the u.s. should communicate to the present there to publicly state his intention to respect the constitution and step aside
at the end of his second term in december and if you fail to do that and made appropriate preparations for elections the we should implement sanctions if he does not do that. in response to my letter, you seem to suggest that camille's actions in the next few months would be determined whether or not state would in opt to an act sanctions. he testified much around the same time, it seems to me the political environment is deteriorating and congo and they have not -- has the time arrived for sanctions to be imposed on the government of congo? >> thank you for that question. yes, we are looking very actively at sanctions as they relate to those who are involved in violence. we have conveyed that to kabila and his people.
the secretary met with him a few weeks ago in new york. our special on bay has been proactively engaged in the region we are still hopeful that we will get the government of congo and president kabila to do the right thing. the constitution is very clear that the term ends in december and they must have an election. we have conveyed that to him. we are also working very closely with our other partners with the e.u., with the french and others to make sure that we are all on the same sheet of music on that issue. >> the election is scheduled for the end of this year, it's only may, there's plenty of time to set up an election. write another talking about the end of 2017 as the earliest, that would be clear violation of the
constitution. >> absolutely. >> we need to make it very clear to him that will not accept that. >> thank you. thank you mr. chairman and thank you to all of you for being here today for your ongoing work. can you talk about the importance of women's empowerment in developing in africa and what we are doing, what you would identify as the best examples of successful programs? >> i love that question. i think that we increasingly, especially in talking about conflict and instability need to talk about the role of women and peace and security. in in fact, that is an actual u.s. government policy which is entitled u.s. woman peace and security strategy which talks about the fact that women are critical agents of not only as victims, but but agents of change when we're talking about instability and conflict but also violent extremism. our programming runs the gamut
depending on what the situation or scenario is. in areas where they are vulnerable communities or we see that they do not have a lot of access to legal recourse, economic opportunities, and they often are coerced or used as instruments of terror or violence, or suffer from gender-based violence. we seek to find ways to empower local women communities in allowing them training, work through economic empowerment, access access to education which is another critical element we are seeing. when women have access to education and girls we have seen child marriage rates falling, their susceptibility to feeling of acceptance with violent extremist groups also decreases. again, we think it is very important to target to women and in these environments because we
have also seen it not only are they able to make a critical difference in their own lives but there also critical agents of change in the rest of their community. >> i do not know whether you are mr. several want to address this, but can you also talk about the efforts to recruit people to terrorism to boko haram, how the difference of overseeing the ability to recruit men and women, i know there's been increasing never to use women as suicide bombers. can you talk a little about what we see, who is easier to recruit? >> i think for most of the groups the emphasis emphasis continues to be on recruiting young men. in in the case of boko haram, notoriously they have used girls in suicide bombing operations which is absolutely despicable, they are
obviously coerced into that activity. i would just build on something my colleague just noted on the role of women in particular in identifying the seeds of radicalization. women play a critical role in most communities in being close to the people and having the ability to understand whether or not their influences coming into the community that could lead to a process of radicalization and recruitment into terrorist groups. this is one of the areas we would like to develop in our programming. we have a program that has been underway in nigeria, through u.s. institute of peace, in which they are developing a network of influential women, women who already have a role in society to bring them into a network and train those women on observing and understanding whether there may be signs of radicalization.
he said the kind of programs that will be very important as we get into the community level and address the drivers to radicalization of violence. >> one of the things we have heard about the success of isil has spent their ability to recruit people to a caliphate. the idea of the caliphate is very important. are we seeing that same kind of interest in africa, in terms of the messaging to try to recruit? >> the numbers coming out of africa that we are aware of in terms of a foreign terrorist, those of actually been inspired to travel and attempt to travel to syria and iraq are much lower than for other parts of the world whether it be north africa were countries or european states, the caucuses, and even down into southeast asia. the numbers are higher. with that said, there is evidence that some african recruitment among africans into isil and isil's propaganda is a
very shrewd in identifying and using recruits who come from particular reasons and appealing to those individuals to join the caliphate. or come to iraq and syria. of course isil has been it tempting to infiltrate into other areas of the continent, it continent, it in particular in somalia. there is evidence that there is a struggle and conflict internally between al shabab and elements that have sought to adhere or affiliate with isil. they have not seem to have success there but it does identify that this is an ongoing concern that we have to watch very closely. >> is the cost getting to syria to iraq part of the challenge? or is it the messaging that's the issue? >> i think there are a lot of factors, that would be one. one is the things that have made this conflict in iraq and syria such a threat to all of us is the relative accessibility of the conflict for the people in
europe or turkey for example you can get it to syria quite easily. i think it is harder for the people in africa because it cost more. it is is more difficult logistically to do that. >> of the estimated 60 million refugees in the world today, i understand about 15 million are in the sub sahara africa. i assume, but maybe you shouldn't that the terrace and instabilities are driving those numbers, can you talk about the and also talk about the climate change is playing a role in what we are seeing in sub-saharan africa? >> sure. >> is not surprisingly we are seeing numbers of refugee movements right now and i'll just say internally because the
people are necessarily leaving their borders and moving out. when the instability in somalia we have seen people go across yemen which we know is not secure at all. people know that they are not secure or say. would your surveys we see time after time that these people do not feel secure and safe they will move across borders and they don't feel like there's any opportunity for them to exist on their own of the country of origin. so we have seen situations where even when insecurity such as in the democratic congo where we've seen large refugee movements, what is often cause people to move across borders and move further is when marcus start closing down when there is not ability to make a living. we have got a dynamic population in these countries that, in a
sideways are used to coping and dealing with instability and very creative ways. but the current pressure of instability and lack of opportunity are what are pushing them to move further. >> so than climate change is a big contributor. >> climate change is a big contributor in both. we we have seen the el niño effect right now throughout ethiopia, kenya and somalia. it's definitely a definitely a factor. in 2011 we know the payment was partially caused by drought, mostly by al shabab with a big reason that people had to cross borders i was so the largest migration of somalia's and it put pressure neighboring countries such as kenya and sudan and ethiopia. we are seeing that those pressures are increasing local tensions and we see very much the same story, current draft and problems. the
ability to have accessible land has cost people to move to urban centers. with the lack of opportunity were seen increased radicalization as well. >> thank you. >> limit just begin, would you describe boko haram as an anti-christian terror group whose main motivation is to rid nigeria of christianity? i say that based on a video released by the leader that said this is a war against christians, the democracy constitution. the constitution. the law says we should finish them when we get them. >> i would say they are more than that. i would say that is part of their ideology. they have curled more muslims in the north than i have killed christians.
they are a terrorist organization in the have no boundaries. >> would you support designating nigeria as a country of particular concern for religious freedom? >> i would not designate nigeria of it as a country, we have huge, huge and very active christian populations in nigeria throughout the southern parts of nigeria into the middle belts and even northern nigeria. we have a huge muslim population there as well. so both communities until boko haram were able to live together and work together harmoniously. i think that can continue once boko haram is brought into justice. >> from usaid, what programs exist to assist the victims of boko haram, in particular the psychological programs for women and girls who have been victims of sexual violence? >> you put the nail on the head. we have a conference a program right now that is in design to really target the northeast of
nigeria. looking at the victims of boko haram, we are working with communities right now because as we have seen, when people who are leading boko haram or who have been victims of boko haram return to their communities, sometimes they suffer from a second wave of victimization. so we are working to educate community. >> in terms of stigma? >> it is been heartbreaking actually. we are working to educate community as to what it actually means and why people suffer. and the fact that they can still be productive members of society. we also offer psychosocial support and care. a number of girls that we did manage to return home are receiving that type of care right now. we are also making sure that we're working with local clinics and medical providers to train them in the right techniques. we are also working with community influence makers,
religious leaders, so that there is a message that can be amplified through various channels that there is recovery that is possible. where possible, we are are restarting basic social services such as education, we are putting more money into emergency education in the north and we are hoping that where we can we can increase access. we are also providing assistance to those for internally displaced through basic humanitarian assistance. >> with all this instant ability in sub sahara, how did it affect your ability to implement programs. have many been suspended due to security concerns? >> throughout the sahara africa when we work in unstable environments we have programs that have to exercise flexibility.
so we have multiple times is suspended and restarted programs. i think a model of working in these climates has to be based on the idea that really developing long-standing, long visioning network with these communities so that when security prevents us from moving into an area, we have the right networks and through understandings of local people on the ground and our staff who often are from the region, they understand when we can come back, they also also understand how we can still have access and figure out creative ways of providing assistance to those intended beneficiary. again, i would emphasize the flexibility of the program to understanding that it is not sometimes a continuous flow programming without starts and stops. especially an area where there is. >> that would be highly disruptive, for example if you are assisting a victim of sexual
violence and in the middle of that program the security concerns that require us to eliminate people from that setting and then suspended and restarted. his is a commonplace problem the stops and starts because of the security of army? >> so it's not that the program will stop entirely. usually what we try to do is we have a combination of working through local partners and so a lot of part what time we train the trainers. they still receive some reports even if some of our staff have to pull back. we try to lay her on different types of interventions to make sure that we have creative ways of making sure that we are able to reach the beneficiaries. it is disrupted. disrupted. when, in extreme places we have to completely not be in a particular area for some time, course that's disruptive. but we have found is that over time when it's been for sustained periods of time, the
population is also moving as well. >> on the counter terror threat there is been rumors that the leader of boko haram, is perhaps fighting in syria with isil, can you shoot shed any light on that? >> i have not seen that, he periodically appears and videos that we are distributed and are aware. one of the things that we have noted is that after the affiliation of boko haram with the islamic state, whether there was any difference in the quality of their media output which is usually an indicator of a strong link. we we have seen a little bit of that payment not. >> i don't know if there's been any reporting that've seen that he's in syria. >> are there any countries that you're particularly concerned about terms of recruiting fighters and how significantly
do you assess the threat of more more fighters flowing out of east africa? were quite concerned about isil or the islamic states attempts to infiltrate an affiliate with existing insurgencies or terrorist organizations. we know they have been attempting to move into somalia, al shabab itself is recognize this as a threat and there's been a fierce struggle internally to hold off. but that raises the possibility that they will look at other smaller communities in the region to include can they are, elsewhere, so, so this is something we're concerned with. we know that isil will want to continue to build its network and affiliates. we have to remain attuned to that. of course libya is a major affiliate of there is also the threat that connections might be made through libyan throughout
the region. we are watching that closely as well. as for individuals traveling to the conflict, as you have noted a minute ago there has been some instance of that but the numbers of sub-saharan africa ours used generally low compared to numbers of north africa, or southeast asia. >> senator mccain. >> think mr. chair and thanks to the witnesses were being here today. chairman corker, you you opened with a provocative question which is, given some of the statistics in the deaths, why is there less focus, generally in the media, and the public sphere about some of these challenges in africa and elsewhere where. the staff asked asked the africa center for strategic studies to prepare some material for the hearing. there is a really, really good one pager on the number of fatalities that have been experienced in africa. i would like to introduce it for the record.
>> absolutely. >> it did not did seem to provoke much. >> it bears out your point exactly one of the reasons i admire my colleagues on the committee's many on this committee spend a lot of time in africa, and not committee members to. hearings like this are really helpful. just a thought on this, i don't have to be diplomatic because i'm not a diplomat. on the question of the differential, i think you have to acknowledge that race, we would have to look at mira and and ask yourself if braces part of the reason. if we look backward at her own history, often things get explained in retrospect and races part of the reason. we put japanese americans in a german case, we do put germans there, what explain the difference, german-americans look more european like the powers that be then japanese americans day. there's a school of thought that explains the differential
actions of the united states in the 90s in terms of intervening dramatically to stop genocide in the balkans but not intervening to stop genocide in rwanda and then why didn't we intervene in one and not the other. some of the answers to that is not too pleasant. so i think part of the reason to have a hearing like this in part of the reason i applaud my colleagues who spend a lot of time in africa, is because as leaders we have to challenge and it's a media print trail to, terrorist attacks in mali, nigeria, chad, are worthy of the of the attacks that brussels and paris are. and even others don't give us much attention. all of of these are important and having a hearing like this tries to put it on an equal scale and not suggests that some lives are worth less than others. i think there's other reasons.
in the middle east we have needed something, we've needed oil, so, so that's probably made us more focused on the middle east and we haven't focused as much on africa because maybe we do perceive that we needed something as much. , also, and again it's a good reason to have a hearing like this are form policies as a nation just have an east-west access that is been undeniable. we've cared about the soviet union, now russia and china, if you look at the diplomatic effort that focus south of the equator, it's just been less. that's that's something that's been good about a hearing like this. i wanted to ask a question. i'm going to make you do homework me were all writing the defense authorizing bill. africana is an interesting regional command on the military side because probably more than any of the other it integrates
cross disciplinary usaid and trying to deal with chain challenges in africa. as folks who who are not part of the dod, talk to me about the perceptions of africa,, one proposal is to fold it back into you, and not there be a specific africa. second, talk to me about the efficacy on senators questions less about the arms sales but about the training and exercises we do with african militaries. i know many of our u.s. ambassadors ask that we devote marine units and other units of training i power terrorism and human trafficking to build capacity. in your view as professionals in this area, how successful other are those training efforts that we do with african security training courses? >> i will will certainly turn to
mccauley. i hope that africa, is not folded back into yukon because what it is meant to us is that we have a military that is more focused on africa and has over the years become more understanding of africa. they have become a great partner for us. we very much appreciate that partnership with africa, and as a for the armed services we do have a key area of said concerns. those concerns concerns are that as their authorizations are being considered there crossing some lines into the areas into diplomacy and development. those are what we like to keep
and where we think we have better skills and skill sets to carry out those responsibilities particularly in the area of community developments, in the areas of working on governments, some of those authorizations need to be guarded for the state department and for usaid. the we have have raised concerns there. in terms of our relationship with africon, i think there better then any time when we are working with -- i think we have areas of disagreement and we have been able to establish channels of communication between general rodriguez and myself. where we have addressed those issues. we have had some positive impact on the region. in all of their training that they do with african military,
they have human rights training modules in every single one of those efforts that we have made. i think they have paid dividends for us. we have been able to use the relationships that the military has developed with their military counterparts to get messages through to those militaries. in terms of lethal weapons, we look very closely adds what we are providing. as i mentioned to us the senator when they asked for cobra/of it and think though it would be appropriate we are concerned about how they be used and we said no. we think the super to condos are a better piece of equipment, we can train them on how to use this equipment to effectively and not have a negative impact on communities and on civilians.
so we are working very closely with them to address those concerns to make sure they do not have a negative impact. >> senator king, ranking member on africa. >> thank you mr. chairman,. >> mr. chairman, and ranking member i just want to thank you both for convening this hearing and for your great engagement on this topic today. along with senator marquis and others we have all enjoyed a chance to work over many years together. just two opening statistics, i think you reminded all of us that there are positives and negatives to the security situation in africa. as some of you know i hosted annual effort kid opportunity --
the fastest-growing caught continent in the world. it has seven out of ten of the fastest-growing economies in the world. eight eight out of ten of the largest united nations peacekeeping operations are also in the continent. i think one of our challenges is to remain appropriately focused on the difficulties of developing assisting, strategic framework for engaging with extremism and violence on the continent, while still recognizing the significant growth opportunities, positive opportunities to reinforce our values and to work together with our many allies and partners on the continent to moving forward. on the outset i want to thank that dedicated foreign service officers and civil service with the state department and u.s. a id work so hard as well as those of dod and law enforcement who do so much in terms of training and outreach.
on a recent trip i took the time to meet with the number of episodes and it's always interesting to hear just how hard they work and i'm impressed with their determination and drive while working under difficult dangers and often remote conditions. let me just ask this panel, what lessons have we learned from fighting terrorism in africa. we have in front of us probably speaking, three case studies and the saw hill, with a focus on molly, in the lake chad region with a focus on nigeria, and in the horde with a focus on small you. we have very different levels of u.s. engagement, u.s. expenditure, u.s. policy responses. it's a significant stability challenge which is been with somalia, where there is a multilateral military presence where we played a significant role. i think that made substantial success in pushing back al shabab in the lake chad region where were spending less money but boko haram was the deadliest terrorist organization the
world. it should get and it deserves higher attention and higher priority, senator kane suggested it is a very unappealing. the united states, by the way gets more oil from the covenant of africa from the middle east. so if it was just about resource prioritization it would be long ago that we put africa on the top of our list. i'm concerned that we are allowing others to become dominant players in africa and we are liking. and in the saw hill we have predominantly left the hard work from un, the french and an au mission. these are different responses but in all three there are no significant u.s. troop deployment, and maybe central but it's quite different in iraq or syria. so where are we getting befor r buck, our security concerns and
what role does diplomacy, development development and security play in this work, if you would just in series what is the strategic framework for making progress? >> i will start and then turn to my colleagues. you asked early what lessons we have learned, i think the most valuable lesson we have learned is that this has to be multifaceted. it cannot be just focused on security and military, we have to bring in the civilian agencies. we also have learned that we cannot only. we have to build the capacity of local organizations, local military and local security services. local civil society. we we have to build their capacity to own it. we have to be supportive of them. third, i think we have learned that we have to partner. in the case of molly, we have been extraordinarily proactive in the -- but we are not in the
lead. we have been involved in the peace negotiations come our military has been extraordinarily supportive of the french effort there. there are so many problems across the continent, we have to spread ourselves very thin. we have to look for other partners, in that case we have worked very closely with our partners in the un as well as the french government to make sure that we are having an impact with the situation. finally, this is been set in the room by everyone, we have we have to be concerned about human rights. we have to ensure that these governments understand that human rights are important for us, as i said before is a core value. they expect to expect to hear from us on human rights issues. if we don't raise human rights, i think everyone of them would be in shock. we generally start out in that area. >> ..
>> there making sure that we are aspiring to the same standard. i think that we have a lot of opportunity here to partner in with the government, private sector, and also local communities, making sure that we are touching people on the ground and not just working with institutions and capitalist. >> i agree with you. the senator raised this and i was pleased because of electoral electoral a regularities and tha
setback. it is a great opportunity to continue the administration sending the ambassador among the many others. you may have them take the time to conclude. thank you, sir. >> i think that in general, in each of these three situations as you pointed out, is that we have, in the african continent, partners that are willing to address the challenges from within the region. they are committed to this and that is something that is unique globally in the way that these terrorist issues are being addressed. each of the three examples that you have provided have not been easy. it takes the constant diplomatic effort to keep the momentum in
each of these areas. but the solution that you would want in somalia is a situation that has developed in terms of the contributing countries from the au led missions. and of course the bigger challenge there is that these are governments are also generally speaking in many cases, the weekend before and lack of equity. the same solution over time that addresses the root causes will require improved government. it is a long-term effort here. but the buy-in and the commitment of the countries themselves is a virtue. >> absolutely. i think that the fighting of terrorism is every bit as large in scale as the middle east. the key difference is that we have allies that are putting soldiers into the fight. african soldiers are fighting and dying in somalia, mali and
other areas. we are providing support unlike other places in the world, we have willing allies that are sending their troops into the fight and it has made a difference and we should be grateful for their partnership. i am grateful for your service and the chance to ask questions. thank you. >> very good. senator martin. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i wanted to follow up on some of the questions that the senator asked on regarding assistance provided by the 2014 budget. it was the first time that security in africa past that best data comes from a lot of different places. in particular the pentagon runs called building partner capacity which is about $10 billion globally, increasing the source of dod funds to help to promote
military skills and train sales and military standup capacity. so, ambassador linda thomas-greenfield, i wanted to ask you about to what extent the state department and the africa bureau has read into the department of defense to spend holding capacity dollars, a huge amount of money globally ,-com,-com ma a lot of it is spent in africa, the extent to which individual ambassadors have a say as to how that money is spent. to make sure that it is not counteracting the work that they are doing. and, you know, the broader thoughts on this long-term transition away from the majority of money in these countries, being state department money, to the department of defense money. >> thank you for that question. we work closely with africa with
any activity that they are involved in and we have an annual strategy review meeting with them where the usaid mission director's come there. i am there, my college from their is also there as well. we look across the board at what they are planning to do and look at what they are planning to do in the context of our mission programs. and in terms of our own strategies. and the ambassadors have detailed the violence and any actions that they are taking in any program that they are doing. and in general, if there is any disagreement, general rodrigues and i work those disagreements out between ourselves. so we are very much in sync with them.
we wish that we had that $10 million. the $10 million to program on the continent of africa. we would be doing some different things. they have the money, so we want to help them channel that money to places where it is going to make a difference on the continent as we work to fight security and terrorism. together. $10 billion would be a huge contribution to the democracy. i'd described it as scraping the mayonnaise jar to get just enough to do the job that we have to do. >> how much do you have in governance? >> let me get back to you at that figure. it is a moving target. >> okay, i would submit that it's well less than what the department is saying and what they are spending and the building partner and as members of the foreign relations committee, all we know is that
it is spent. i am glad that it is part of the degree of coordination that is happening. and it's probably a topic that should get more attention. let me ask one additional question. >> if you would please yield for one second i will give you extra time. i think that you are raising a fundamental point. >> there is another situation that the ambassador pointed out, even to expand the traditional state department areas. it's a matter that we are looking at on a broader scale. >> obviously there has been a long-term shift. that is what happens when you are engaged in very dangerous places. but i guess that i am not as optimistic as the witnesses is the ability to coordinate this work on a country by country
basis. >> it is an effort. i actually have the figures here where we are actually looking at increasing the funding and the presidents request, increasing support for the programs in africa and fiscal year 1700. the request for that is 20% above what we did in 2015. the figure for 2015 was $286 million. and there are $311 million. >> it is another way by which we communicate our priorities in this country. so we are looking at $300 million on a good day in democracy assistance, then we are handing out potentially 10 times that amount of money in an account that has very little oversight from the united states
congress. it tells the countries what we think is most important. and as part of this balance it is difficult to do when the numbers are that skewed in favor of military and security. so to that end, and i don't know exactly who to put this question to. but maybe i will ask it to you and to others. in these conflict zones that we are talking about. can we talk a little bit about this attractiveness of the sunni ideology amidst areas that are often dominated by muslims and the story is partially about schools and on the ground, funded by some of the allies in the middle east. some of it has to deal with young men that go to the middle east to get taught in schools, funded by allies in the middle east. what is the level of seriousness
about the countries on the ground in understanding and also trying to tackle this problem of radicalization that happen in these schools. >> i think that it is a real concern on the part of many governments in the region. we hear that from these governments. as he pointed out there are likely a variety or number of different vehicles into which this put into context. we see it in southeast asia, we see another places where you have had to have a certain approach to religion that is tolerant of other traditions. that is being sort of worn down by the soucy and ideology. and that causes polarization,
intolerance, sectarian conflict. so it is a problem globally and also relate probably to the spread of media. people have access to media coming from different parts of the world. and it has been media funded coming out of certain regions that have propagated or have emphasized a particular view. and so there are a number of particular vehicles and it is a major concern. i think that when we talk about how you have to look at the particular circumstances, almost the community in the village level, what are those influences. that is where the very difficult work of countering extremism will be identified through research and also through data, as well as understanding the drivers at a local level. it is a hard issue to address. especially in what is really a global phenomenon of the infiltration of this particular situation. >> i will just say that we can
spend money chasing these dollars around the world, but we are never going to be able to keep up and it's probably a better strategy for us to ask about why these dollars are moving into areas like africa out of the middle east, out of the pockets of many of our friends, probably a better use of our time and money. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. i want to thank our panelists. i think you can see that there's a lot of interest in what we had to talk about today. if you could, we will have questions after this and if you could respond quickly we will take questions until the close of business on thursday. we thank you for your service to our country. if you could with your crew, we would like to shift over to another panel. okay, thank you very much. [inaudible conversations]
[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> thank you, thank you, sir. >> thank you. [inaudible conversations] >> the second panel will consist of two witnesses. the first witness. any corrections needed there, sir? okay, thank you. the assistant administrator and development are for the regional bureau of africa, the second witness is with us, associate regional director for center --
onemoment. the senior director for central and west africa, at the democratic institute. we welcomed you first with the opening comments. we thank you both for sharing your expertise and knowledge with us today. [inaudible] [inaudible] >> we are thankful to be invited before the u.s. committee on foreign relations. i have a longer text and i'm going to try to limit my remarks within five minutes first, i want to briefly update you on what we have learned in africa,
and second i would share our view on the possible developmental approach to mitigate the quest for peace to the arc of instability. the ford i start with a sense of perspective even though we are discussing africa, the continent is doing great for the last 15 years. [inaudible] since the year 2000. violent extremism is among some of the economies. not a lot has been cut from 3% to 1%. it has been cut to 1% in 2015 and other countries like kenya and nigeria.
[inaudible] mbt estimates that 30,000 people have died since 2011 and are victims of violent extremism. and 6 million are currently displaced due to radicalization. mr. chairman, over the last two years they have held a number of confrontations and conducted a series of studies to better understand the violent extremism is in africa. the israeli studies converged with three major findings. one is that radicalization's are multifaceted. [inaudible] in the combination of property and development. and that includes weak social contracts with high levels of
individuals. number two is the ground to radicalization are the border areas which are in most of the country neglected, ungoverned, weak government and low socioeconomic structure. and while there are a number of commonalities, there are also some important differences between countries. [inaudible] and that includes somalia and nigeria. it is much more prominent in kenya. it is with this in mind as they embarked on. [inaudible] approach that we seek to address
the multiple drivers and enable us to radicalization and extremism. [inaudible] on preventing and responding to extremism in africa which focuses on supporting the regional institution, government, communities and individuals to really those factors. we are working in countries supporting pathways to develop and integrate regional strategies. this includes preventing radicalization. [inaudible] [inaudible] working these local and national governmengovernmen ts to provide basic social services to citizens. support and implement creations and we want to local governments
to strengthen with authority. we have learned that the conference of immigrated program providing security offers the best approach to combat violent extremism. let me conclude my remarks by emphasizing that to me the full potential, preventing and responding this was a collaborator partnership with government and i thank you. >> thank you very much, sir, is that the correct pronouncement? >> yes, it is correct, sir. >> mr. chairman, testing which members of the committee. on the half of the national democratic institute, i appreciate the opportunity to discuss terrorism on instability
and make the argument as to why this should be a center component of any stabilization strategies. >> for more than 50 years we have worked to establish and strengthen the community is, and promote citizens and the accountability of government. the institute has conducted programs or worked with approximately 50 countries and i have been fortunate to be part of this for the past two decades. terrorist activity for the past decade threatens to destabilize the continent including this third wave of democratization that began in the 1990s.
groups such as boko haram and others. [inaudible] at the horn of africa have caused tens of thousands of deaths and tremendous economic security. [inaudible] for the population. some of these organizations are eager to establish alliances with organizations in other parts of the world, notably the islamic state of iraq and al qaeda and isis. [inaudible] and that includes military groups militarily and at the same time as the affected country addressing the extreme
violence. the violence is deeply rooted in religious belief. however. [inaudible] it has exacerbated the impact of this phenomenon and created a middling environment in which extremism tries. when the state collapses as was the case with somalia prior to also. [inaudible] as was the case in molly.. and that includes providing citizens with access to meaningful lives, liberty and property and the social contract between the city and state is broken. discontent with government that is viewed as illegitimate or
ineffective is a ground for this embracing extremism, hoping to extract a better life and what is link to this environment. moreover groups that are denied access to basic public groups and opportunities are more honorable to extremist appeal and indoctrination. therefore to counter violence in africa, they must therefore address this as part of the overall strategy. based on institutional lessons learned through the work, my own
experience and what i hear loud and clear from african democrats, leaders and activists alike, i strongly offer this to your recommendation for your group. it should be grounded in democracy and good governance so that the military victory can be sustained in the medium to long-term. we cannot afford to defeat violent extremism now only to have a creep back up five attend years down the road. they should not get a pass solely because we are good partners in the fight against terrorism. shrinking political space and violations of citizen rights and freedoms and the undermining of constitutional rules breed
discontent. [inaudible] for the perpetrators of violence and extremism. terrorism can and should be good performance in democratic governance. these two are not mutually exclusive but mutually reinforcing. africans of this generation are extremely fearful of reliving the expense of the cold war era during which there are gross human rights abuses not odd just because of the allies of the west at the time. they should not become a substitute for the cold war paradigm of this century. it is critical to every
counterterrorism strategy before they are allowed to breed extremism and from the state not odd and excessive. [inaudible] and economic terms make young people one of all to these incentives of this extreme movement. and so some remarkable accomplishments for the last two decades, democracy and democratic governors in africa are under attack. and on the other hand it is challenged from extremist organizations and on the other hand, in some cases by internal
threats from other regimes that fail to deliver public services including rights and freedom. [inaudible] africa must make sure that they do not willingly allow themselves to deny africans are basic rights in securing the future. thank you, mr. chairman, and members of the community for this opportunity. >> without objection. it will be entered into the record. we thank you both for the testimony. we now turn to the distinguished member, senator cardin. >> i want to thank you all for your full statements that are being made part of the record. i have had a chance to look
through it and it certainly does reinforce the concerns that i've had. i would like to get a little bit more granular here. those of you who mentioned the importance of the underlying causes of this granulation, if we don't deal with the underlying causes it will be short-term success. we have incredible tools. this is an incredibly important part of the international efforts to help develop the prosperity in countries that we hope will provide long-term stability necessary including incredible service developing incredible opportunities around the globe. and of course the united states and our development assistance and security assistance, these are tools that can provide incredible opportunities for stability globally. and yet we point out that in
africa we have not been as successful as we need to be. so therefore, my question to both of you is what is one that we should build on and that includes economic issues. but how do you take the current programs that are available, whether through government or others. how do they build the ones that are the most relevant to the stability of sub-saharan africa, and what programs need to be reconfigured because they are not providing the returns for the investment that are being made? can you be a little bit more specific here? >> thank you, senator. let me first say that when i was listening to the panel -- it was music to my ears.
this is the fight that we are doing. and the main concern is good governments. we have seen ungoverned spaces. [inaudible] and what we are seeing in this continent. and you are right. the issue that we are seeing here is that most of these countries have limited space and the ability to participate in this practice in which we are doing. first, not odd military and then human rights and then development. but the good practices that we are having with them to scale. i think that we have to understand that this is limited and we cannot do it alone in the spirit of partnership we can
have good partnership. [inaudible] i come from an area that has an excellent partnership between two countries in the. [inaudible] region. and it is at the border that we see problems. so if we can invest in this at the border areas it would be great. and i think that they are -- with funding, we can scale this up. >> thank you. >> senator, this obviously doesn't have the luxury of governmental entities or even a multinational organization. but with the resources that we have always received, we have tried to put this forward to the society. because when you look at that
and the studies done by organizations, and i reference that in my written statement. 75% of africans aspire to be in the societies in democracy. and so they demand and it continues to rise through the continent. unfortunately this supply is shrinking. and so the programs that can allow the expansion would bring more into the process and it would also allow the citizens to advocate for the proper management that are created within this country. so i would like to speak more about society, some of them are very active. especially in some of the areas that are being impacted.
i understand that there are a number of groups that are engaging with this internally displaced presence. and there are some that are dealing with the effects of boko haram. and there are some that sometimes receive support from other organizations to be effective advocates. >> i agree with what the points you have made. i think that it is a good point and we need to concentrate. it has been more complicated because there for the country, no matter what the host country's response, it makes it complicated and difficult. and i think that civil society is certainly a critical factor in good governance. if you don't have a healthy civil society it breeds problems.
so let me try to get to a third point. and that is the reality or the perception that you can get a free pass from the united nations or from the united states if you are working with international coalitions to fight counterterrorism and what you do internally in your country will not really be of major importance to the international participation and support. that to me, whether it is real or perceived can be a huge problem in dealing with civil society or good governance or dealing with democratic develop. just share with me your concern as to whether the leaders of the countries that are working with us have the view that the international community will give them a free pass on governance issues as long as they are part of the coalition against violent extremism.
>> thank you, senator. for us, human rights is the bedrock of whatever we do and not negligible. >> are you willing to pull out of the country if you can get the cooperation you need from your leaders? >> what we do -- >> are you willing to pull out of the country? if you set it for that and you said it is the bedrock, at least part of that is going to support a regime. will you pull out? >> what we do is meet with the high commission of civil rights, making this a part of the situation. but i think that we could be better off to support capacity and community and help countries with human rights. and this is a voice that is functioning strongly. whatever we do, human rights is embedded in our programs.
it takes time, it may not happen overnight. but it is embedded in all that we do. >> senator, i would say that your description. [inaudible] and that includes decisions within society that when you go through the countries that have had poor performance, that those countries coincidently happen to be in the fight against terrorism and it is a perception that is with all of what has been done to support this in the past. the example that you raised earlier is very clear. it is obvious that it is backsliding on the democratic governor's front, but it is still viewed as a good ally.
and what many civic leaders think are doing in regards to this front, whether it is part of the two undertakings is mutually reinforcing. and it could still be a good performer on the democratic governor's front. >> well, i agree. it's not a choice of either or. it has to be both. because otherwise you get short-term games and you're not going to succeed and it was provide not only a opportunity for citizens but it will be a gap for extremists. so you have to do both. i am afraid that we have focused on counterterrorism for a military point of view including dealing with the good governance
in the country. it seems like this hearing has only put a spotlight on that. and you have to be prepared to walk away with a partner that is providing an opportunity to a country. it is sometimes difficult because you know that there are needs that you sometimes have to deal with. if it is not getting through and if it is supporting corruption than the better alternative is to look for another new opportunity rather than continuing the existing partnership. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. >> what they just said is unlikely to ever occur. let's just be honest. >> would you like me to answer that enact. >> i think he answered when he laughed. but it is not going to occur. >> there is an optimal way of doing it is not to walk away from a country but to what
invest in it. we say this is building the social contract. for them to also fight for human rights. that is an investment worth doing. >> is to underscore the point. we always look for ways to provide humanitarian help, to deal with the human crisis that exists. but if the host country believes that they are always going to have a partner regardless of their own activities, you lose the ability to change the underlining problems within that country. >> we talked to the first panel that is here. and we went on the same line of discussion. there is no question that the fact that citizens understand this because the terrorism issue is a cute. the other issues are longer-term and they know that we are going to hang in there with him on the counterterrorism piece. there is no question relevant to
this and other issues that creates ill will toward the united states. >> what is the question? >> obviously, it creates a lot of doubt in the minds of the people and we are also dealing with a segment of the population that is only going to increase. and we know that africa is a young continent. so the bulk of the consummation is in this category of people who have asked to be seen differently. [inaudible] and they are the ones being put in the position of this one government is not anti-terrorism legislation that has been used in so we end up not creating france with a segment of the population that is the continent
of the future. >> and that is a magnet for folks to be attracted more so to terrorism. so they just feed on each other. so let me step back. we all understand the presidential race underway. and we also understand both of us here, we understand that we spend 1% of the u.s. budget on foreign aid. but there is no question that during the presidential race there will be discussions about foreign aid. i don't think it's possible for that not to occur. so people listening to this testimony today, listening to the fact that on one hand we are dealing with corrupt leaders that are not treating the populations properly, sending them money than in many ways keeps them in power and if they partner with counterterrorism, even more so. on the other hand we have people that have terrorism -- we have
people that are being treated unfairly. we actually have one of our committee members here that is constantly focused on this issue. so stepping back. and as we debate the nation's fiscal issues and the nations interest, which i think could be more so in this presidential year be discussed in times in the past. if you would, both of you advocate to me why you believe that the continued involvement in countries like the ones we are discussing is an important thing for the united states to be doing. >> mr. chairman, simply put as i said earlier, although terrorism could be generated by poor governance in a country, it can belong to the ordinance and the national committee.
that is why we fight them wherever they are. i am not saying that we should give a free pass, but we have to fight it and fight the root causes. and that is why it is so important in this fight. >> mr. chairman, i agree with what the individual has said. and i will simply add that american lives and american interests are also at stake. i'm sure that we remember the bombings of embassies in kenya and that includes embassies and americans died in the process. so terrorist are threats to americans whether they are on the homeland were trying to operate overseas. because their ultimate goal are
a part of the villages they get destroyed in a number of african countries. so i think it is important to set forth the message that we are all shaken by this. [inaudible] and we find ourselves at the present moment. >> and i think -- i think that the challenge, you know. i think that some of the debate about let's go to the middle east, isis, people act as if we are going to do away with isis in the next year or two. they are missing the fact that the root causes are long, long-term as far as issues go. the same is true in africa. the root causes there are a long-term issue. and i think that as long as americans look at the resources that we have and the needs within our own country, sometimes the simple thought we
can go deal with terrorism like that and maybe the lack of understanding that there are root causes within africa and the middle east that will mean that it is good as gone and another group will be coming behind it unless we are dealing with haute sides of the equation, i think that people in many cases miss the point because the dialogue that has taken place. would you all agree or disagree with that? >> absolutely. mr. chairman,. [inaudible] it has started years ago and it has taken several years and i will say that it is a toxic combination of. [inaudible] that has created this. and it will take time to deal with this. it is a long-time investment.
and people are putting steel into that long-term investment and providing it with good security. and i think that it will take time. it is not an instant battle in my view. >> i agree with you, mr. chairman. and i think that first you have to stop the bleeding and then you can use democracy on the government to build up things in this country. and i think that for example, that democracy on good governance made in this situation of two countries that were both bordering countries to libya and that includes the post libya crisis in a different fashion.
mali, the government was accused of being very corrupt and marginalizing minorities. marginalizing them a great deal. and that includes activities that have already taken place in northern mali prior to the attacks by the terrorists in 2012. on the other hand the neighboring country of which they share a direct order with libya because the governmengovernmen t has better control of its borders and they have come up with a policy and because the government was dealing with interrogation and allowing people. [inaudible] to make decisions. [inaudible] and they were better able to deal with the other effects of
the libyan crisis. they are surviving with its northern border with northern mali and to the southern border with nigeria. they are to be commended for this effort. this is one example where an african country is better able to manage the economic resources and human capital in a way that gives people confidence that the government can respond to in the country is still doing well. >> well, thank you. we are way beyond time. if i could ask one last question. this is off-topic. but we had a really sort of harrowing hearing with speakers
about the abuses that are taking place. and i would like to just ask enclosing when this is happening, what does that also do relative to populations -- and their feelings of people that are working within this period and how does that feel in addition to the attraction of terrorist groups? >> it is a horrible situation. it puts the discredit on the good work that the soldiers are doing and you have seen the secretary general condemn it strongly. >> he condemns it. but we see almost no action
taken. condemning it doesn't mean anything. >> this coming week has condemned it. he has dismissed the head of the mission. he has asked to name the countries. >> is going to jail. >> yes. [inaudible] >> it behooves the conscious. >> you understand from my perspective that i would be like us naminthe terrorists of bad guys but doing nothing about it. >> we also have a special coordinator from the u.s. to coordinate the efforts of the u.n. to address this underlying situation. >> prosecutions including not
naming people, not naming countries. >> mr. chair, you would know that the u.n. has no space for soldiers. [inaudible] and i think it proves the countries to do the prosecution once they are named. >> i would like to join with the chairman. i am not satisfied that the united nations has done everything that needs to do. i understand that you don't have independent ability to do that. i understand that you have the politics of dealing with the member states. but with the peacekeepers it was very late at the game and the action was not adequate. and we know that the secretary general is quite sincere. we know that the security council has taken action. but we have not seen the type of enforcement that we expect. i think that the same thing is
true with the various programs under the united nations including the development programs that are critically important. but if you are not prepared to break your partnership with a corrupt regime, then i think that you are doing a disservice. i understand the humanitarian needs and dealing with ngo types where we can do direct humanitarian service. by contrast the governments that are corrupt, we need to be prepared as to walk away we cannot get the type of progress. we do not expect progress every night. i have one quick question, mr. chairman, to the gentleman. and that is, what should the united states do in order to respond to the perception that we get free passes to coalition partners in regards to those human rights violations? is there something specific that you would like to see us do?
>> senator, i think the you touched on some of those issues in the first panel. i think that speaking out more publicly against the citations and also taking actions that can reassure the vast majority of africans in this country. they really mean it. so it is a sense of adventure with amputated at the highest level. i would also mention what we have discussed in terms of additional resources for democracy and good governance programs and the support of programs. and also a sense that this program to be effective, because you're talking about changing attitudes and changing behaviors. dealing with people who have acted one way for decades who now need to act differently.
it is the same level of support and it is more likely to pay dividends than physical type of intervention. because in the meantime to be able to create relationships of trust and creating trust. [inaudible] with assistance that is nonpartisan and means well in terms of raising the cooperation between one government and one later, that wires time and resources. so i think that that would go a long way. fortunately for the three decades that they have had and that could have a huge impact where the resources are available. >> thank you. and thank you. i know that you are speaking up
regarding this is not your area of expertise and i appreciate that. and i think you understand where none of us on the panel are particularly thrilled and that calls for prosecutions to take place. and i think that certainly this hearing has given us a good sense of complexity is that exist. we have similar complexities in the middle east where we are dealing with countries that, you know, leave these back and discriminate against various sections that are not of their own. ..
[inaudible conversation] [inaudible conversation] [inaudible conversation] [inaudible conversation] >> tonight on c-span2, a senate judiciary committee hearing on fisa, the intelligence surveillance act. then josh earnest on the president's upcoming trip to your oshima japan. later, senate hearing later, senate hearing on counterterrorism efforts in sub-saharan africa.
>> c-span's washington journal, live every day with new some policy issues that impact you. coming up wednesday morning, oklahoma republican congressman, tom tom cole joins us to discuss this week's meeting between speaker paul ryan and donald trump. he will also talk about disaster relief in the wake of this week's deadly storms in his state. then, new york democratic guzman, gregory democratic guzman, gregory meeks will be on to talk about issues before the financial services of one of her committees. congress and makes it sit on both committees. he will also discuss the upcoming election. the latest edition of mit technology review explores new genetic technology that could eliminate the mosquito species and eradicate malaria and about one year. we will be joined by the magazines biomedicine senior editor, antonio rigoletto. watch c-span's "washington journal" beginning live at 7:00 a.m. eastern, wednesday morning. join the discussion.
>> this sunday night on q&a, historian adam houck shall, in his book, spain and, spain in our hearts. on the american waldman and the spanish civil war in the late 1930s. >> this attempt hapten in spain when all of the country right when the army officer tried to seize power. parts of the country succeeded in seizing power in 1936. it sent a shockwave alarm throughout the world. he was a major country in europe the right-wing military quickly backed with hitler and mussolini who sent arms, airplanes tanks and miscellany eventually sent 80,000 troops. here was of the spanish the spanish right, making a grab for power. people all over the world thought it ought to be resisted, if not here, where? otherwise we are otherwise we are next. >> sunday night at 8:00 p.m.