tv QA CSPAN August 12, 2016 8:00pm-9:00pm EDT
jesse holland. mr. holland talked about his book subseven "the invisibles". >> jesse holland you write in your brand-new book, i decided i would write a second book in 2008 while riding on that then senator barack obama's presidential campaign bus and he made a week and stopped at his home in chicago illinois. why did you leave your forwarded back? >> guest: part of the reason why i wrote about the african-american history in washington d.c. was because of barack obama and his campaign. it brought up a lot of interest in african-american history having the first african-american president of the white house and i was lucky enough to be assigned by the sociedad press to cover obama that weekend and i literally
remember pulling up to a couple of blocks away from the obama's townhouse in chicago thinking to myself, what book am i going to write next and literally right there on that spot is where it hit me and i got so excited about the topic i immediately called my editor at that point and said this is what i want to do next. shia melody -- immediately tamped down the enthusiasm she said a case it back and think about make sure you have a really good idea about what you want to do but i think it sounds great in the whole thing just took off right at that point. c-span: what was the idea and what is the? >> guest: the ideas to write a story about the african-american slaves who lived in the white house. back then we were so excited, the country was still talking about how great and how unique it would be if an african-american president lived inside the white house so i said to myself i understand that will be great but he can't have been the first african-american to
have lived there. and that thought process went on , or write to were the first african-americans to live there? we knew at that point there were african-american butlers in the white house but then i thought while well there had to be someone before them. so i decided to write a book about the afghan american displays -- slaves that lived with the first president and that is how "the invisibles" the untold story of african american slaves in the white house got its start. c-span: we have an artist rendering of the first president 's house in new york city and you say in your book there were nine slaves working for george washington inside that building. explain how that happened. >> guest: as most people know the first president george washington didn't actually live inside the white house. he lived inside residences both in new york city and philadelphia. now when this country for started congress didn't provide funds for butlers and maids and
washer women. it didn't provide funds for domestic staff at the white house so the first president to either had to come out of their own pocket and pay for the staffers for they had to bring in their slaves from their plantations, so the majority of the first president and the founding fathers who became president they were all slaveowners and so they would bring in slaves from their plantations. george washington did this as well. he brought in slaves to new york city and philadelphia from mt. vernon and they served as the first domestic staff to the united states president. he brought them to new york city and he brought them to philadelphia. now, in both of those places, today we would consider them to be non-slaveholding back then slavery was allowed in new york city so george washington took advantage of this to bring slaves from mt. vernon up to new
york area to. c-span: you a story about what kind of machinations they went through to keep the slaves in the president's house. >> guest: one of the rules they had in pennsylvania at this point was that any slaveowner who brought a slave across the state line into pennsylvania and kept them there, in six months, after six months had passed those slaves automatically became free. now george washington was no dummy. he did want to keep bringing people from mt. vernon to philadelphia staying six months and having the mock away from him with no compensation at all so what washington did was every five months and a couple of weeks he would decide to take his whole household back to not burn in and then they would turn around and go back to pennsylvania starting that six-month clock all over again and he did this over and over
and over during his time in pubs loving it just to ensure that if the slaves from mt. vernon that he brought up there would not be freed. none of his slaves were dummies. they sort of new what he was doing at this point. that's why one of the slaves took the opportunity to actually escape from george washington. her name was od'd judge. she was martha washington's personal maid. she had been with the washingtons her entire life. she was actually born into slavery with the washingtons and she had been with them her entire life. at the president's second term was winding down she saw that if she ever set foot back at mt. vernon she would never escape so while the washingtons were packing up to get ready to go back to mt. vernon, otey was packing her own things and one day as they were eating dinner
she just walked out the back door and walked to the wharf and got on the ship and sail away. took a couple of days for washington to realize she had been packing to escape but she actually made it all the way up to the northeast where she would live out the rest of her life without ever having to go back to virginia. now it's not that the washingtons didn't want her back. george washington actually put advertising in the newspaper trying to get people to find ony judge. he sent a couple of his relatives to the area where he thought his ony judge had escaped to deceive the could find her and one of them actually found her however by that point she was enough that part of the community where the community decided that they would warn her advance and let her get away before the slave catcher showed up so ony got to
live the rest of her life out as a free woman instead of going back to mt. vernon and serving as a slave. c-span: how worthy -- just do it depend on who the slaves were. most slaves were. most slaves were bought as children. if you are going out and buying a slave you had a choice. you couldn't either by a slave as a child for by a fully grown slave or someone in between. so the money amount would depend on what exactly you wanted. for most how slaves who served as made and served as a valet, they were most likely a younger slaves so they could train them in the way they wanted them to serve around the house. one of george washington slave was bought as a young child specifically to serve as a valet for george washington in today's dollars it would have been about
$5 for him but he was very young. a fully grown slave, someone who you are going to buy in the field, they could go for much more. someone who was a cook, for example the hemings family with thomas jefferson, if someone was buying a fully grown slave who was trained in french cuisine as a lot of the hemings ended up being trained they would be much more but for a lot of the presents they either inherited their their slaves or bought them as children to work inside the white house. that way they knew what the slave was taught to do because they have potted to them themselves. c-span: what kind of a contract was there with the individual and who was the contract with to own that other person? >> guest: well it depends on where you bought them from. a lot of slaves in the presidential households, they ended up eating the sons and daughters of previous slaves.
a lot of the slaves the presence used inside the white house, white house, dated really by them. they basically had grown up on their plantations but when they went out and bought slaves, the contracts would specifically say slave x is being purchased by slaveowner anne from slaveowner b. as what went through the records and i had lots of help doing this from the archives in the presidential plantations around the area and when we went back and looked through some of those wreck or it's, there were very few presidents who actually bought slaves while inside the white house. andrew jackson was one of the few who did and john pilate as well. andrew jackson did it openly. he needed some extra help inside the white house to help a household run correctly so he bought directly and washington d.c.. the interesting thing about that
story is greasy sister actually work inside the white house as well but as a free woman. she wanted her sister to work in the white house as well and she recommended to andrew jackson that he go by her. and he did and greasy bradley turned out to be, he bought her as a cook but it turns out that greasy bradley ends up being the best seamstress that anyone had seen in that area and she ended up coming to master seamstress in the hermitage back in the states. she ends up living her whole life out with the jackson family all because her sister wanted her closer to her in the white house. now other presidents like john tyler didn't want people to know that they were buying slaves because when you get to tyler heward getting closer to the civil war said they didn't really want people to know what they were doing. so what tyler would do, he would go out and hire an agent, a middleman who would then go out and by slaves and then transfer
the slaves to tyler. tyler was so adamant that people wouldn't know what he was doing that he refused any of the money that he was being paid as president to buy those slaves. he did it out of his personal funds so presidents had all different types of ways to get the slaves into their hands. some wanted people to know that they were doing it and some did want people to know they were doing it so they all had their different ways and writing the contracts. c-span: i want to show you some video of george -- with the obama's and what the triggers and research. >> in 1814 dolly listen famously said -- sent this portrait of the first of george w..
[laughter] now michelle, if anything happens, there is your man. [laughter] >> i promise you. [laughter] i promise, i'm going straight for it. and i'm sure it will be closer right now and i will get right to it. c-span: what are you thinking? >> guest: that's one of the great stories about the white house that dolley madison comes and saves the portrait of george washington. but i don't think that's exactly what happened because one of the great things i found out and paul jennings was one of the first slaves, sorry he was one of the first people period to
write a tell-all memoir about the white house and dolley madison's story about her saving that portrait of george washington in the white house when the british came to burn it , he said that wasn't exactly what happened even though it was a great story that dolley madison told. but it is and exactly what happened. according to mr. jennings, dolley madison didn't have anything to do with saving that painting. he and a couple of other workers at the white house were the ones who came and pulled the painting off the wall, put it in a wagon and shifted it a way to make sure that the british wouldn't keep it. now there are some people still today who will argue that given his relationship with the madisons and i will say paul jennings relationship with the madisons wasn't exactly the best because they broke several promises to him.
but a lot of people say his account of what happened with that painting is probably a little bit more trustworthy than dolley madison's account. i tend to believe mr. jennings because he actually wrote his down and put it in his book which is one of the first memoirs written about white house life and one of the first books written by a slave that got published inside of united states. c-span: and you can read it on line. >> guest: you can read it anywhere. it's a great book. i tend to believe him but i will say he did have a reason to hold a grudge against the madisons because james madison had told him before he died that he was going to be freed and after james madison died he goes over to dolley madison's and at this point dolley madison is running out of money. she is basically destitute and
instead of following her husband's wishes to free his slaves after he had died she starts selling them. one of the few that she had therapy and was paul jennings and he expected her to follow president madison's wishes and free him but she never did so i will say that he did have a reason to hold a grudge against her but i still tend to leave that his story is true. luckily for him he ends up being sold to daniel webster and to eventually frees him so for him the story ends up okay in the end but he was no fan of the madisons and especially dolley madison so i can see he probably got a little pleasure in poking a hole into that story that she was getting more and more famous.
c-span: i want to put on the screen a list of those presidents that have slaves at any time. you said 12 of 18 had slaves at some point in their life. when they were in office george washington james madison and james monroe and her jackson, john tyler, james polk and zachary taylor and those that don't slaves but not in the white house martin van buren william harrison harrison and are johnson and ulysses s. grant. to have the most slaves? >> guest: probably you would look at washington jefferson and maybe taylor. keep in mind both monticello and van buren were huge -- plantations. attend to bed and both washington and jefferson had in the hundreds during their lives. i would tend to guess that one of those two would be the largest slave owners but you know it's hard to count at any
one point because keep in mind that when you are owning a slave family, the slaves are also having children so those numbers would fluctuate up and down. but still even with that i always think that it would a washington or jefferson. c-span: you tell stories about slaves, servants and presidents that ligouri slept in the room with them. can you remember one of those in particular? >> guest: william lee was the body servant of george washington and everywhere the george washington went he would find billy lee. i think it's probably safe to say beyond phyllis wheatley at that time, billy lee was probably the most famous african-american in all of america because you did not find george washington during the revolutionary war without billy
lee. when washington crossed the delaware, billy lee was right there along with him. when general cornwallis surrendered his sword, washington and lee were there together. leaves job during the revolutionary war was to make sure washington had whatever he needed whether it was a horse, whether was it telescope, whether was a gun, whether was to run messages, billy lee was basically washington's number two copper and there's one story that i found really adjusting in the book. a group of southerners and a group of southerners looking to the civil war in advance got into an argument in the revolutionary war camp and billy lee hears about this argument that's about to break out in a fight in washington grabs his horse that really lee brings him and he galloped him to the middle of this argument and he breaks it up. right there behind him is billy
lee on his horse. even when all of these major battles are going on in george washington's out there on a horse there is a billy lee right next to him. if something happens to washington's horse, then billy lee would have to give him his horse to follow a long as best he could but when washington woke up in the morning, the lee lee was there. when washington went to bed at night it was billy lee's job to take off the wig and his clothing to make sure they were hung and make sure washington had the food he needed, had his bible. it was billy lee's job, he was basically washington's number two to make sure everything around him washington didn't have to think about it. but, keeping up with washington was a chore. it's not like you is easy so as we go on in history we find
people like washington, washington's grandson george parker custis lee who ends up eating a relative of robert lee, he is saying that billy lee was probably the second best horseman in the country behind george washington simply because he had to be to keep up with him. so when you start talking about body servants, these were the men who were entrusted with the day-to-day care and keeping of the presidents. they got their clothing, they got their way exam they made sure they got to bed at night and they major they got the morning. that was their job and most of them lived right in the same room with the presidents. c-span: you were telling the story in front of one of our cameras back in 2010, six years ago in a book he wrote called black men build the capital. it's about one minute and 20 seconds but i want you to see this.
>> and once the leaves had left arlington house the union forces immediately crossed the potomac and took over the land. and one union general decided he never wanted robert e. lee to ever return to arlington house and the way he ensured that this would not happen was he began burying union and confederate soldiers and robert e. lee's front yard. that is how arlington national cemetery got started. another way they tried to ensure that general generally would never return was they gave part of the plantation to some of his freed slaves and what these freed slaves did with the land was come up with a town. as you can see it wasn't exactly small.
they had their own churches. they had their own schools, they even had there on hospitals. we had even been able to find a photograph of the people of friedmans village and the national archives. c-span: i think if i guess right that that is the cemetery that took over the friedmans village. >> guest: the cemetery is friedmans village. c-span: what happened to all the freed blacks? >> guest: well what happened but that story is eventually even though the village was a city unto itself, it brought in people from all around and even some troops ended up living in the village for a while. but, eventually the view that the friedmans village had from
that hill where arlington national cemetery is, people discovered it. and they were basically kicked off the land and it became part of, it was returned to the custis estate and became part of arlington national cemetery so now where friedmans village stood before is now part of arlington national cemetery. now one of the things i have discovered since i gave that talk, one of the churches that was on friedmans village was called the old l. church and i was doing one of these talks about friedmans village and i had this lady come up to me afterwards and say you know my church has that bill. that l. move from freedman's village into alexander counties of that church, so some of the people who lived in freedman's
village they moved across the potomac and down and they are still in these areas. i hear from them every now and then when i'm giving talks about washington history. someone says you know my great great grandfather lived in freedman's village so the people that are still here but there is no trace of the city left in irvington national cemetery. c-span: you told us in the book he started thinking about this in 2008 and he say in the book you showed an early draft to your father and he proclaimed this to be a good book. your dad is still alive. what did that mean to you when he said that? >> guest: i'm from a small town in mississippi called holly springs and my parents were both educators, retired educators. my mom taught english in the north mississippi area for years and years. she was my seventh and eighth grade english teacher and my dad taught science in the memphis
city schools where i grew up in my early years. i grew up in memphis and my parents moved back to mississippi where we still live on the same land that are great great great grandfather had his cotton farm. my family is still there and being the oldest son, you are expected to go into the family business but that was never going to happen with me. i always knew i wanted to be a writer and my parents were really encouraged me to follow my dreams and to write. but, my dad, when he stopped teaching full time he went into farming full-time and i wouldn't call him a voracious reader, but when he read something and he says it's good, it's high praise. that's probably one of the greatest compliments i have had in my entire life, that my father.
the early draft and said you know what, this is good. c-span: how far have you gone back in the genealogy of your own family? >> guest: i am sort of the family historian in those areas. i got started when my daughter was born back in 2006. i have a 9-year-old daughter and her 7-year-old son jesse holland the third so i always wanted them to know who their family was because we live here in washington. most of my family is still there but i want them to know who their people are so i started tracing our family history and started talking to older relatives in finding out who our people are. we have gone back to just before the civil war where the holland's first bought an acre of land outside of benefits until mississippi and my great,
great, make sure i get all the greats, great, great, great grandfather who also happen to be named jesse holland bought an acre land and put a store outside of hudson film is a zippy and that acre of land is still in my family. that's the one acre of land that we will never sell. that's where we can trace our family and that's where we started and we will always keep that acre of land. my parents are both from the north mississippi area. my dad is from marshall county and they met in high school. my roots are there in mississippi and i always make sure i can't go back there as much as i possibly can. c-span: ole miss. >> guest: ayman ole miss grad. i came back and 1989 but i stayed an extra year at ole miss miss because i became editor of the daily mississippian which was the kansas newspaper for the
1993/1990 four-year. i always knew from high school that i was going to do some type of writing but it was in college right decided i would be a journalist. c-span: you have been with the ap for how long? >> guest: since i left ole miss in 1940 -- 1994. i stayed in south carolina for a few years and then went to albany, new york to help cover hillary clinton's first senate campaign and then came to d.c. in 2000 i've been in d.c. ever since. c-span: back to the book and some the characters in the book. the horses at the white house. >> guest: oh yes. there is a great book in this part and some of you may have argued read it that andrew jackson, american war hero. also a big gambling man. he loved the horses.
i feel. faithful and saying he'd brought the only sporting franchise to the white house. he imported some of his thoroughbreds from tennessee and brought them up to washington d.c. and kept them at the white house. now, he was also a politician so he made sure that the horses were always run under someone else's name, but they belong to him and andrew jackson ran horses at racetracks around the d.c. area while still president. he was basically, he was a stable owner. he was the major sporting franchise owner in washington d.c.. if you wanted to run a horse most likely andrew jackson's horse was in that race. he had some incredible thoroughbreds.
get one of those forces under control. one -- the jockey is not controlling in the way he went into so he moves toward the track. and van buren doesn't know what is going on so he moves toward the track as well. bay finally get the horse under control and he backs up soviet burin does not blink about it. a man sitting on the of course, in front of the starting gate jackson and that having to get the aberrant to move ambac in that scene follows him him the rest of his life that jackson had to pull him out of the way back of the bourse's big like he was a child that cemented him as
his pocket and not followed him the rest of his career spee6 teefour fled to 6 inches tall? >> he was a jockey. he was the one jockey along with the wars that jackson could not beat he tried over and over pdf differed forces after him and he could never we tim. he is probably one of the first people that we know publicly bought into a trash talking in dryexx and was a
man known for his temper he would fight. he was rough and ready but because of his victories over and over monkey simon would publicly teeseven tell him how jackson looked he even wrote an embarrassing song that he would sing but jackson never retaliated. even toward the end of his life one of the things jackson would say that he regretted we're not quite
her if he bought him or rented him but they had relations later and alleys today talk once or twice. he was probably only living person who said something bad to jackson's base and could get away with it. >>cspan: from another soleil f -- soleil then said he was attacked comedy slaves did jackson have total? >> into the hundreds. cspan: he liked that. >> we look at that now. he actually owned people burgled and he had affection for the people that he owned
he wasn't one that was known for mistreating his slaves and would stand up for them when somebody else would attack that. cspan: this man is talking about jackson he went to pdf beat him up so severely he was laid up four or five weeks said ward did he ever touched him again he would shoot him on sight. >> jackson stood up for his people you knew that if you messed with anybody that he would come krio now he called them servants but they were his slaves.
but if you were anywhere close to mistreating some one that belonged with jackson he would have to deal with jackson himself. another story is one of jackson's men, one of the slaves was charged with murder at a fight with of a christmas party there was alcohol level because a slave get into an argument and someone dies they decided they would charge his slave with murder you would expect that to happen and the slave owner would ago she a to get this to go way. but first of all, to say i have a lawyer and you need
to prove this case and if you don't then you will make this go away because you will but used my slaves to attack me for political reasons. so jackson himself took over the case back to make sure his people were not treated unfairly because a wasn't actually one person attacking another he went above and beyond you expect a slave owner to do. cspan: let's go through some stories quickly of of william johnson he was a slave of andrew johnson team when he got his name from the person he works for. this is an area where we have to be careful because we don't know for a fact we
don't know the genealogy but we knowed he worked for andrew johnson we don't know if he was related that has never been proven one way or another but he was there with andrew johnson his entire life the johnsons were also from tennessee from the information to come up to washington with the johnsons and go back to oakland -- tennessee after he left the white house he is one of the fuselage that we know that was honored back by u.s. president after johnson died william came
back to washington to get a to work of a the white house and got a silver tipped cane as a gift to take hold so we know for sure that pretty well he is the only slave back has been honored by u.s. president. >> use said that the james buchanan pdf freed a couple of slaves for political reasons? that the press and the public especially up north are getting a lot more squeamish about slaveholders pirko so buchanan decided he
needed to get some of the slaves out so he decided to his sister that they're being a lot more careful about publicly being slaveholders of mr. to divest themselves. cspan: its surprises people to learn that grant had slaves. >> guest: me as well be kenji wouldn't think the man in charge of the u.s. army during the civil war was actually a slave owner himself but he was. but he inherited his slaves through marriage. he did not buy them he married a woman the family owned them and press delete key freed them that shows
where he was. buddy took it upon himself to free them. cspan: james monroe was the first president to actively suggest that but it seems like a lot of president said they would eliminate it but they die door their wives died then they were friedberg. >> guest: one of the pains that i saw is most of the founding fathers knew in their mind that slavery was wrong. they do that. but they were willing to inconvenience their own lives to make that come true so a lot of them said when i die, my slaves will be freed
or my wife they will be free. not during they're lifetime but they knew ended is pretty clear that it was wrong they did not want to perpetuate for another generation. some did but keep in mind they also while trying to be kind bear lives were a pretty bad situation because the president dies first can you tell all of the slaves you will be free once my wife dies the only thing standing between those slaves and their freedom is one woman's life bob? the url cleaning and cooking for bopper one accident gives you your freedom
solana of first ladies started to make the slaves freed quicker bed have them wait. cspan: tyler's fiancee on the shepherd -- shipped and the secretary of navy than secretary of state died and there was a slave? explain the story. >> at the time he was supposed to be one of the native crowning achievements pirko it had to of the biggest cannons made at the time. saw to show this off they sail up and down the potomac in inviting members of the congress than the president
of to let them see this great creation of the u.s. armed forces. the and the slave is aboard the ship as well and they go past mountain vernon and decide pdf to honor the nation's first president they will fire the can and. b tyler is below deck and a song is being sung that tyler really wants to hear so they tell people they will fire the can and -- t3 but the slave decide to go upstairs but unfortunately that is a misfire and it explodes on board be. tyler is below that but the
people around the canyon are of the vdt killed -- immediately killed because it exploded so shrapnel is all across the upper decks been. several members are killed including the upper civil servant. cspan: what happens when they go back to the white house? this is how they treated slaves during that time the people were taken off of about and put in a beautiful purse -- curse with h. terry todd coffin but armas said gets a pine box and there is the scene describing all of
the t12 going back to the capital and then the pine box he does not get to lie in state he is sent home to his family in a pine box but everybody else is honored that is how little they were regarded even working for the most powerful man in the united states. cspan: you seem to be a positive person a smile like your face but i want to show you a guy we have had here several times that was so angry what happened in this country he talked about what you wrote about he says it
is his thing care about the way blacks were treated. >> you walk into that capital everything describes the stages of america but nothing no douglas or harriet tubman or nothing of who built the capital who put the statue of freedom? the who cast that? slaves be. >> how angry does this make you? >> sometimes during the rioting i had to sit back and say this is what happened. you have to tell the story. but that is the important part be those that don't
know history is doomed to repeat it by having people read these stories, it is reclaiming a little of that respect we were talking about. nobody knows best plays name or cares but maybe by writing these stories are talking we get a little respect back for these and n and women that was denied during their five. cspan: at the time did the slaves built a white house? >> the construction crew be was a large portion was built by slaves. that is what they did. back then washington was basically a small part. there was no work force the only major work force in the washington area comes from
the plantations in virginia and maryland so they rented slaves to help build the white house and the government buildings. james holden a slaveholder from south carolina he brought some up to help build the warehouse be. no way to sugar coat bissau washington got built. the slaves were easily it sensible and cheap labor. and like friedman they cannot complain about their working conditions in there were not getting money for the work so they couldn't go anywhere because they could not afford to. a lot of the white house and the capital not all of did that the manual labor dvina a good portion was done by
slaves part of the reason for writing books like this to make sure these stories get told a lot of times when we talk about history we talk about founding fathers in the great politicians, great city leaders but not the people who make the city. the first group of city who - - people who made it work were the slaves. we don't know their names but we begin to take back that dignity that was taken away by people knowing who they were. cspan: the first 12 did not have slaves adams and john quincy but you dropped a little nugget when the white house was reconstructed that
there was no bathroom quacks like laugh. >> guest: del whitehouse was not exactly the best place to live with a first open laugh off bataan adams was not very happy to be in washington he was happy to be president but moving into the white house it was finished but not quite done he could live in it but keep in mind he did not have the slaves that everyone else had to finish the work be. so they would call it the drafty mansion and he would pay them the potomac it wasn't exactly what we see now but it got there. cspan: utah about a structure being built where
andrew jackson statue pdf is a cross? >> when they were constructing the white house the slaves had to live somewhere soon they bilked shanties around lafayette park bis is one of the things i think is interesting, there were quite a few other buildings around the white house that are there - - not there now, the d.c. a map there was an ice house, house, stables, shanties for the slaves to live in wealthy worked houses for the friedman all on the white house campus but today they are all. what the white house look like today and back then that whole area is completely different emigrate disease somebody
mad about. >> day hid the fact that they brought slaves to the white house but polka brought 19? >> he brought all of this latest cause while he was inside the white house. he was one of the few that decided he needed the extra help while he was here in washington he had slaves of his own but he needed help all he was here in washington so he decided he would buy more and train them to work inside the white house. cspan: what does this side -- story of a lie is polka but he was a conservative? >> guest: he was a faithful slave and when he goes back to tennessee t6 becomes a political figure
>> guest: jackson gets the goldstar not because he freed have but he was willing to put himself on the line for his slaves and he made sure that his slaves path after he died that they could stay and become a part of that community and time and time again stood up for the slaves who would work force have and the freed men even in the snow there was an african american freed men working in the white house for jackson in the mob came for him and jackson said no best in the coup was
beverly's no plaques. >> he owned an eating establishment there is a different dachau the riot started one discussion is it began because of a drunk soleil food tokamaks and went after a household of and it snowballed. but african-american establishments and the being destroyed. in a lot are killed and one of the people they went after went one dash worked for jackson but he said no. you will not take him. cspan: we are almost out of time. if you had to put your feet you're on one source of the formation to find these stories?
>> guest: bell library of congress. stories like these are in the margins. very few of these slaves got to tell their own story bestowed to find their stories you have to read the owner's stories poured the information or the ledgers or what the owners left behind. the greatest repository cave from the library of congress. i got held up the presidential plantations i was surprised how willing they were to work with me to find this information but everyone i came across from mount vernon to the heritage were all willing to open their records but the majority of my work came from the library of congress the best people in the world