tv After Words with Heather Mac Donald CSPAN October 9, 2016 5:00pm-6:01pm EDT
looked at driving behavior and found that blacks sped on the new jersey turnpike at twice the rate of white drivers and that the disparities at speeds over 90 miles an hour was even greater. .. this officers admitted that they engaged in racial targeting on the highway and their supervisorsessed a swayed advise emthem to do so we should get
less credence to that than a set of statistics. >> guest: a set of statistics guess to the overall -- if these guys were engaged in drug interdiction and were being told to after jamaicans and the daye dea keeps close track of who it doing the drug smuggling on the eastern core so if they're looking for particular drug gang that is racially identified to me it seems to me legitimate that would be one part of the grounds for pulling somebody over, but for average traffic stops just don't think that's happening. >> host: you spend much of the book, then -- you haven't spent a lot of your recent career, talking about the effectiveness
of stop, question, and friction in new york city, and denying its involveses racism, but you are aware that a commander, spin county, deputy inspector, is caught on audiotape, the recording which was introduced in floyd trial, the stop and frisk trial, you write about in the book. i'm saying, that, you have to stop the right people, mail, blacks, between the ages 14-21, but he didn't say anything, on if you have reasonable suspicion. he stops his distribution of the right people with male black, 20 to 21. isn't that another admission that at least some members of the new york city police department believe that all male blacks are potentially criminal and that the targeting of such male black is unwarranted? >> guest: well, door roar --
door i don't think that's a fall charityize of of what he. they -- for the fact he had done absolutely no pro-active activity in the previous year. this was one of those officers on the way low end of the bell curve of officers that are actually trying get out of their car and investigate suspicious behavior. and he put out a hypothetical. he said if we have robbery pattern involving young black males between the i'm 14 and 22 -- the ages ages of 14 and 22 that's 'owho you should be stopping. he was goad bid this -- that this guy came in hoping to get him to say something that could be used in the floyd trial. this was not something he just said out of the blue on his own initiative, but even as he phrased it i find neglect
objectionable about this. the was giving a hypothetical of a robbery pattern, and to be honest, it's a hypothetical that sadly mirrors the crime situation in new york city, that preys on minority victims in minority neighborhoods. when you look at who is committing robberies in new york, blacks are 23% of the population, they commit 70% of all robberies. whites by contrasts are 34% of the population and commit four percent of all robberies. so it's in those minority neighborhoods where you have elderly people, getting stuck up. so, when he came up with this pattern, out one that his police officers here again and again, not from themselves but from the victims of robbery themselves and it's -- police officers hope against hope that they will for once gate description of a
suspect in a violent street crime, whether it's a drive-by shooting or robbery, that it white, but given the fact how crimes distributed in cities today that almost never happens. >> host: one definition of racism -- the definition i called classic racism -- you take the behavior of a few people, from a particular group, and then project that behavior on to everyone in the group. we have known since 1972 that under ban communities you speak below philadelphia -- that the greatest amount of serious crime is actually commit bay very small number of what called active criminals. so the notion that -- and that pattern was held over time. right? there's a very small number of active criminals. the inside nypds statistics on
stop, question and friction, that 80% of all stop decide not produce an arrest or summons and that roughly, 2012, 88% of blacks stopped during that year were not found tone game in criminal -- found to be engaged in criminal behavior. if your an innocent black person who is unfortunate enough to live in a high-crime area, what do you make of those statistics from the police department? >> guest: first of all i found iter easy to meet young black males who say after the never been stopped april. spoke to a boy in the mt. hope section of the bronx who said i've never been stopped because i'm a good boy. he goes to work. he goes to school. he's not hanging out on the corners, and philadelphia, as you mentioned, i write bat book written about young crack dealers there called "on the run" and the dotes devotes which
at the to what he calls the clean people, who -- they drink beer rather than smoke marijuana. they stay home playing video games, not hang ought in the street and have had no interaction with the cops. i'veles met whom a i've been stopped by the cops and i understand why that was happening, the cops are doing their job. it is -- there's no question that black males today face a much higher rate of getting stopped when they're innocent than white male does today and that's a crime tact that the community unfortunately pays -- crime tax that the community unfortunately pays because of the elevated rails of crime. but i would take issue with your characterization of the stops data. it's true about six percent of all stops resulted in an arrest and six percent of all stops resulted in a summons.
the aclu, the legal aid society, drew the conclusion that meant that every other stop that didn't -- was necessarily of an innocent person, and that's just not the okay. drug sets, the open, air drug dealing are very carefully choreographed to make sure officers do not have probable cause to make an arrest. a careful segment whose has the money and the drugs, contraband is kept in a neutral location. so, somebody can -- a police officer can be intervening in open-air drug dealing without having the probable cause to make an arrest, and let's say there's been pattern of car thefts on a street and an officer sees somebody walking along a line of cars drying door handles, there's no probable cause to make an arrest for that, but that may well avert
another car theft in that neighborhood. so, we don't know what number of stops were in fact intervening in criminal behavior, but i'm certain it's not a zero percent. >> host: all right. let's go back to your -- the question of the tax on the innocent members of high-crime or even low-crime communities. because there is -- the veatch said that -- the reach said in neighborhood blacks and latinos make up 14 parts of the residential population, they make up 70% of the stops in those locations. so it would seem that whether you're in a high-crime community or a low-crime community, so long as you are black or latino you stan a greater risk of being stopped under the practices that were challenged in court by the floyd lawsuit. right? >> guest: so, let me ask you, what do you think stop rates should along like?
in new york city, blacks are 23% of the population and commit 70% of all shootings. they've committed -- of robberies. as far as shootings go, the fluctuates from year to year but goes between 57% -- 75% to 80%. when you add hispanic shootings to black shootings in new york city you account for 98% of all shootings. that type of criminal behavior is going to manifest it's in low-level law breaking. whites commit less than two percent of all shootings, though they are 34% of the population. given those crime disparities, do you think that stop rates should mirror population data? should whites be 34% of all stops and blacks 23% of all
stops, even though whites are virtually not present in violent street crime? >> host: we talked about this before, that i take the position that people are individuals and that anytime we group individuals together and make assumptions about the individuals in the entire group, based on the waiver of a few, that's problematic. right? we have a -- you're a lawyer, i'm a law enforcement there's -- i'm a launch there's a constitutional amendment that says we shall not do that and everybody should have equal protection under the law and then but of the first issues in looking at rag degree gate -- aggregate data. two criticisms people might be making about the book, it contains a lot of information and we only have an hour -- >> guest: could i make one point i'd love to get your answer.
for two years "the new york times" was focusing on the 73rd precinct in brownsville, brooklyn, which had a high stop rate. what they never dub let's compare brownsville to bay ridge, brooklyn, which is several miles away. now, the stop rate differential between brownsville and bay ridge is about 15 times greater. the per capita rate of people in brownsville getting stopped -- they have a 15 times greater chance of getting stopped than those people living in bay ridge and it's true that brownsville i predominantly black and bayridge, white and asia. what is left out is the per-cap to shooting plate brownsville is 81 times higher than in bay ridge. now, what that means is that every time -- this is, again, not coming from the police. these are people who are reporting these shootings. this means that every time
there's a gang drive-by shooting, the police are going to be out there in high numbers, making stops, to try and let the rival gang know that they are being observed. and given that degree of stop -- shooting differential, and the inevitable response of police to it in order to prevent another person being either wounded or shot, will result in a higher rate of stops. of grew to the meetings in new york city, the weekly data-driven accountability meetings where local precinct commanders are health ruthlessly accountable for the crimes and the solution it in their precinct they don't talk about race. this talk about where people are being victimized, and given these disparities in new york city of where people are being shot, the police are going to be
doing pro-active policing, pedestrian stops, in those neighborhoods that will generate the at that time da that shows these desspirities that the aclu will then use against the nypd in a lawsuit but they have no choice but to be -- >> host: you used the word choice. i wrote a note in the margin of your book, your position that innocent blacked had no choice but to accept high rates of stops and in terms of policing, high rates of low-level enforce in order to have public safety. >> guest: i think that officers have an obligation to treat everybody they neat with courtesy and respect and if an innocent person is stopped and subjected to the humiliation and possibly terror of being stopped by the police, the police have to explain to him why he was stopped.
ideally play the radio call back. and that officer should not walk away from that interaction without making sure that the person understands why he was stopped and ideally has reached some sort of agreement. but as far as the broken windows police rug mentioned, the lower-level, quality of life, public order offenses, every time guy to a police community meeting in the south bronx or central harlem or central brooklyn, what hair from the residents -- what i hear from the resident of the neighborhoods they want more policing, not less. and they're not saying arrest the robbers. they're saying, bring public order. they say you kraft the drug deal north carolina back on the corner the next day. kids hanging out in my lobby, smoking weed, and dealing drugs. i'm terrified to go down and pick up my mail. spoke with a cancer amputee in the mt. hope --
>> host: i really have to it -- >> guest: my point is the police are getting these requests from the members of the community themselves. >> host: but the police also bat the the -- which you talk about in the book -- and so those requests were from parents that said, my son can't go to the store and come back home without being stopped by the police. there are actually some media reports of people who lived in buildings being stopped in their pajamas on the way to trash bin and asked for identification. so the notion that -- are attelet two sets of voices, clouding voices of police officers because it's often not talked about in the floyd case, there were former and current police officers who testified against the practice of stop and frisk. why do you think is not often mentioned? >> guest: i think the officers
that they got were disgruntled officers, inevitably people who were under observation for absolutely doing basically nothing on the job to try to protect the members of the community in which they worked from violence. given the rhetoric around stop, question and friction, -- fry sk i would have thought the aclu would have been able to find hundreds of completely clean people who were stopped for no reason at all, and the l owe gon players which they chitled down and got 11 named plaintiffs in their class action lawsuit had massive criminal hoyts. one of them, w.b. in the lawsuit, last year, was federally indicted for gang conspiracy for stomping a boy to death in the bronx several years ago. he was one of the plaintiffs in
this suit who was claiming about being groundlessly stopped itch would submit -- he was well-known to the people in that precinct. when they saw he was a named plaintiff they couldn't believe their eyes. there's a reason why he was stopped because he is involved in gang activity. >> host: but to be fair, we had a police commissioner and corrections commissioner, all one person who ended up federally indict as well and spent time in prison and came out of prison being able to talk more concretely about the horrors of incarceration and the last three chapters of your book talk more about incarceration and that sort of thing than it does the war on cops, right? why do you include those last three chapters? they seem to have very little to do with the war on cop topic that the book titled about.
>> guest: well, my point is that the "black lives matter" movement has a much broader focus and we are living through a moment where there's hardly a single law enforcement practice that is not under attack for having a disparity impact on blacks and certainly we live in a narrative now of mass incarceration. so that is part of this large-scale attack on the legitimacy of the criminal justice system. so the same charges are brought to bear against incarceration practices as are brought to bear against discretionary productive policing. they same argument that the overrepresentation of blacks in prison is due to racism, sort of unspecified somewhere along the line, whether it's police officers, juries, prosecutors or judges. so, i see them actually as quite part of the same narrative that i am trying to push back against. >> host: okay. what do you say to your critics
who say as a middle chas white whom you spent to stanford and kim brim. your degrees in english and law ceiling. why it would be appropriate for you -- i'm going to read from the back jacket of the book itself. right? it says: mcdonald gives voice to residents of high crime neighborhoods who want protexas if a policing. she warns that race-based attacks on the criminal justice system from he white house on down are eroding the authority of law and put lives at risk. so the statistics suggest you would be the one least victimized by street crime that you would be the one least likely to have -- become
highlight are of are. people who want productive policing and people say if a been the victim of pro-active policing. how do you responsibility to that with the critics who would say that? >> i think that's a very dangerous path to start down, that you can only talk about reality -- >> host: you said racism doesn't have anything to do with it. which it? >> guest: with my right to try to just -- in high-crime areas as a result of this large scale delegitimatization of law enforcement, i don't feel like less representative by president barack obama because he is black or that my congressman may be black, therefore he suspend speak for me -- he doesn't speak for me. assume every individual is trying as you say to address the
fact as he sees them -- i don't think skin color decreed denializes me to write about policings i and wonder if you raise the same complaints against a jeffrey fagan or white christian criminallologist -- it doesn't -- you don't have to be of any particular race -- jew i have to stop you again for a second. want to go back to the other part of that question, which is you spend a great deal in the book critiqueing for the social science research but there isn't anything in thundershower educational background that suggests you have had training in social science research. how can -- i would hope that
social science research is transpatient enough it doesn't require a ph.d in statistics but i'm nor often invoke social science research to bet tress my arguments. the blame, for example, that the criminal justice system and incarceration rates demonstrate -- blacks are imprison it than rates would predict. even good-was forced to conclude that it is blacks' rates of criminal offending that explains
their high representation in prison, so i i am happy to look at social science research but so far, it has not been able to validate the mass incarceration need -- >> host: it hasn't been able to eval was the efficacy of broken windows policing, either? i'm sure you're familiar with david harris, law professor out of pittsburgh and david wrote a book called failedded and asked police, why don't that you more social science research, and one of the responses was if you look at any set of statistics you can find anything that contradicts the other. >> i don't want to run out of time before we talk about the topic of write while -- i
challenge the use of the word -- the commissioner from the 1920s and 30s, in it's 14-volume report, they had a chapter or set of -- a volume on lawlessness and law enforcement. now, the commission was looking at law enforcement behavior in relation to prohibit -- prohibition. they were white and middle aged fighting over territory. the right to do what? >> guest: to bootleg. >> host: okay, and so we know that this notion of drive-by is not a -- you pointed out before, a single race phenomena because we saw the valentine's day massacre and shooting in public places when the offenders were white.
do you know how they resolved that issue when the drive-by shooters were white? >> guest: you are moving towards prohibition. lifting prohibition, i don't know. >> host: they legalize the kind of behavior that was producing this kind of violence in four mostly white states in the united states the possession of marijuana for recreational purpose has been legalized. we in new york city disproportionately arrest young black males for possession of marijuana while statistics suggest that marijuana used in city probable probably is predominantly white, male, better educated. given those differences why is it you spend so much time in the book focusing in on black crime and essentially denying that
there's any racism? >> guest: well, i'm interested in violent street crime. i claire about black live jr. you have blacks dying nationally at six times the rates of whites and hispanics combined. that it's problem. and the reason that is the case is that blacks commit homicide at eight times the rate of whites whites and hispanics combined. james allen fox looked at young male use of homicide and black male between the images of 14 and 17 commit gun homicide at ten times of the rates of who its who its and hispanics combined. of you want to save lives, the lives being lost at greatly disproportionate rates of black in this country. we talk about the absolute numbers before. over 6,000 blacks are killed every year -- >> host: where did you get that figure?
whatted the source of that -- >> guest: from the fbi. >> host: and two things -- >> guest: that more than who it and hispanic homicide deaths combined. and blacks are 13% of the population. so, if you want to save black lives, homicide is where to look and drive-ly shootings and have been different patterns of crime in the past but what we have now, the police are dealing with what is right before them in the streets. >> okay. >> host: regardingregarding thex and s.w.a.t. article that included the word surge, word used a lot in your book, there's a surge in crime. we talk about the fact that really low crime numbers, an increase by one, if it's the baseline is one, is a 50% increase. so when we talk about these really large -- these percentages, sometimes you are
only talking about really small numbers. so, for example, in the allen fox piece you write about in the book, they use the word surge, but they don't talk about the fact that in 22 state this homicide gun rate for black men actually went down. and a 248% increase in idaho for young men, not black men, engaged in gun homicide. certainly would represent a surge. so, there's this question of why is it that we spend so much time -- if we went more time talking about crime in general, from the perspective that involves variables that can be changed. no one can change the race. but we can change in the other kind of contributors to violent crime. that we might be able to -- i want to talk specifically -- we're talking about white crimes -- because there's something that we don't spend enough time talking about.
okay? you specifically talk about black lives, but if we look at the names like dylan and dylan klebold, we're talking about 54 dead people, 92 injured people, including 20 children into six or seven in just four incidents. don't we want to be concerned -- certainly to lot of media attention -- how can the kinds of policing tactics described in the book have prevent those kinds of incidents? >> guest: well, they're completely different incidents and if i frankly were black, i'd be offended by the white hysteria over newtown shootings. because those -- the numbers of white kids that were killed --
you get that tally in maybe half a year easily of blacks through drive-by shootings that the media, despite their absolute commitment to the "black lives matter" narrative, basically ignores in cleveland in september, of 2015, there were three children under the age of five who were killed in drive-by shootings. we don't know their names. there was not a massive uproar about that. the police chief of cleveland, who happens to be black, was in tears. he said why is everybody protesting the cops when they don't protest when we kill each other? there was a girl, a nine-year-old girl in ferguson -- >> host: correct -- >> -- did on the bed studying in august 2015. >> host: i had everyone heard that statement you just made, that people don't protest about the lives or deaths of black people.
there are at least 20 organizations and i think at least ten in new york city. ... in your book several times. we don't want to perpetuate those that there isn't anything communities are doing to protest the individual loss at the hands of other individuals. >> guest: you are absolutely right. that is not.
you are a black wives matter activist but you are also -- maybe it's the media's fault for not paying attention because i know you're right there was a girl that was beaten to death by another girl earlier this year in brooklyn coney island and there was a local protest saying why do we keep doing this. so you are absolutely right. >> dot statistics for sort of defunded when the federal authorities went through their issues but the last set of data that they had on homicide from 2011 to segregated by race, so for those who were both under the age of 18, 4,000 people who were white were arrested for the homicide come in 4,449 people
who were black were arrested. so you would agree those numbers are very close as opposed to very far apart. the statistics would suggest the overwhelming percentage of victims of white homicide arrests were also white and that the overwhelming number of as you've already pointed out, victims of black arrestees were black. why is it that we don't see a discussion of white crime in your book, because we would all be concerned from the white perpetrators, would we not? >> guest: i would be happy to the racialized this discussion. i'm not the one that started this. this is a product of decades of race-based attacks on police officers. they are claiming they are on a racist vendetta against blacks
and the end result we see what the disproportion is due to the criminal justice racism and that is a very dangerous lie that increases the cost of the officers are getting in the streets. it's not me that made this a racial discussion. it is decades of activist enablers but let's look at those numbers. the issue is what is the per capita. >> host: every time we start to talk about the rate and per capita and personages, we de- individualized behavior. one of the things your book talks about is the sort of personal responsibility and parental responsibility. and i want to make a particular point. your book i read from cover to cover.
the other was closely cover to cover was the book between the world and me. in his book, he talks about the death of prince jones. a medical doctor, whose father is a corporate executive. they were married. there is a long segment of the book that talks about the solution is to fathers. we don't talk about fathers without jobs aren't necessarily the best fathers and others that may have drug addiction problems and may not be the best father. it increases the likelihood that they themselves will be so there is a notion that they may not be the case.
they were hard-working people and their son went to school and was pursuing his degree. he nonetheless ended up dead at the hands of a police officer tr that happened to be black. is it just a problem with white police officers to shoot black victims? is a police issue because we don't want any shooting unarmed people that may go a long way. we know there's all kinds of footage attacking male and female who are not aggressive. you've seen them beating a homeless 51-year-old woman on the side of the road, you may have seen the footage of the houston police department situation and then beating and
including kicking him in the groin so i assume you talk about that on stage 45 that the police misconduct should be dealt with but you don't necessarily get the definition of the police misconduct. when people see this behavior, should it matter what race they are to say this is something that needs to be addressed and done away with if it can? >> guest: i am agreeing with you. i don't think -- that is the discourse that i am rebutting. if we are going to talk about numbers and you think that the ratios are not imported in absolute numbers is what we should be looking at, i talk about the category in the "washington post" database on
unarmed victims of the police and in 2015, there were 36 so-called unarmed victims and 31 so-called unarmed white male victims of shootings. so let's stop at this point giving any kind of ratios. those are close numbers that would suggest if you are going to look at the absolute numbers that we don't have a problem. let's look at those individual cases which is what i did. what i found is that those 36, the two of them that were accidental shootings so the race couldn't possibly have played a role even though i don't think it played a role to begin with in any of them, but cut those out. several of those people were trying to grab the officer's gun or otherwise beating him with his equipment so violently to
that officer in legitimate -- there was a guy that was coming out as an officer with -- you don't think there's white guys that are also shocked? >> host: your book talks about the decision that the governor made to sign an executive order to put a special prosecutors in charge of police shooting cases are violent cases because they know people are being choked and other kinds of things. 2014 legislation out of wisconsin that the lieutenant colonel who was the father of the white victim fought for ten years to put in place comes out with an incident that involves white officer shooting a white victim. part of where we can reach the consensus is that we don't want
any victim being shot by police under the circumstances and the kindest way to put it would be under questionable circumstanc circumstances. one of the things i want to talk about before we run out of time, one of the questions was what does your book has to offer for having lost their black son to police violence under circumstances that did not result in the prosecution for the officer and now she sits in her home in philadelphia wondering how this could happen to her son which the book talks about. she was as clean as could be. >> guest: we go to racialized in the topic again. you're saying that there was some kind of a police vendetta and that is a different issue.
why does her race matter? >> host: i was talking about her cleanness. how dirty and clean together, i mean race and -- guesthouse absolutely not, that just -- >> host: so much of the book is dedicated to denying that race is playing a role in the criminal justice system and policing that you know the history of the united states. the united states was built on a formal racialized wall that for two and a half centuries held african-american people in captivity and then for another hundred years after that, a loud state, local and federal government to pass laws that allowed racial discrimination. i lived through in the racialized legal discrimination.
what would you think would be the legacy of 346 years of overtly supported by legal statute to -- >> host: >> guest: there is an understandable legacy of mistrust. the role of the police in the nation's deplorable history of racism, segregation, the most grotesque violation of our founding ideals was very strong. there is no question that police supported not just slavery but jim crow. they have engaged in brutal behavior in the south and the memory of that understandably takes a long time to fade and it makes any police shooting of a black male understandably fraud. that is absolutely true. but today it is data driven.
it began where the police would pour over crime data on a daily and hourly basis is colorblind and it looks only at where people are being victimized and that's where the cops are going. for years as you know they ignored a crime in the neighborhood think that was a manifestation because they said that's just how those people behave and they put their resources in th into neighborho. the data doesn't allow that to happen and the other thing that drives police deployment is again those heartfelt demands from people in the inner cities say i can't go out into my lobby because there are kids trespassing their.
cisco is an emotional topic but if we talk about data and crime statistics, 70% every year are white and then 30% fall into the category. now when we look across the racial categories, there has to be something that the white and black and a few other categori categories, offenders or arrestees have in common even though they don't have race in common. wouldn't we be more fruitful in sort of crime detection between no stopping frisk did a horrible job but wouldn't we be more inclined as long as there have been criminology if we stop
looking at different racial categories and looked across the offending which unfortunately your book argues the racism in the criminal justice system but then it spends a lot of time saying that it's okay to think of them i as dangerous or potentially dangerous. >> guest: is absolutely unjustified statement. please find me one place in the book that i state that. i said repeatedly that there are the majority of people in the communities of law abiding, they need support, they are trying to do the right thing by their children. it has nothing to do with impugning black people as somehow all criminal. but if you cannot live by the statistics, then you as a criminologist i think are not serving your profession very well. the statistics are what they are. new york city again, 98% of the
shootings this is [inaudible] -- >> host: is about projecting onto all blacks -- >> guest: know it's not. why is it not possible to say that there is vastly disproportionate rates of criminal without saying that all blacks are criminals? >> host: let me ask this question. there is more to the identity of shooters than their race. >> guest: you can talk to social scientists and they find it inevitably -- in the 2,008 father's day speech he did single out black fathers were not doing the right thing and being responsible towards their children. yes he did. he said if we honestly will admit that there's too many black fathers not supporting their children.
you can look at the prison population absolutely can't look at the prison population, and those men in thei there are overwhelmingly from single-parent homes. the research that's been done on the consequences of being raised by single mothers doesn't look at race. it looks at the fact that children of all races to grow up without a father and above all in the community where meals are not expected as a precondition to anything further to be responsible for their fathers they have a magnitude higher of becoming juvenile doping claims and ending up in prison as an adult. so i would love to make that an issue, and what stopped talking about race because all kids need their fathers. >> host: also, doctor jones
and those that raise their children to be law abiding probably would take offense. >> guest: there are not many single heroic mothers doing the right thing. you would basically thought do any statistics unless they serve -- >> guest: not true. when you look at the fact kids growing up in single-parent families are five to nine times more likely does that negate the fact that of course there are plenty of single mothers who are beating the odds. >> host: before i was a social scientist would say all individuals are unique.
we are going to look at the individual officers. the blanket communities with the various strategies with and we know since 1972. they can be identified and who can be dealt with arguably without. they are targeted in hot spots. they pinpoint. >> host: we are out of time to. would you agree that police are required to perform their job in a humane way?
>> guest: absolutely. you cannot get an answer out of them. that is what training should be focused on is how to maintain a courteous public and let's be honest the cops face very difficult situations above all am going to be honest in inner-city neighborhoods where you are aware there is a legacy of people throwing trash at them that's tough to do. but to maintain i haven't talked when an officer says i'm working for the good people in the community and they believe in those people. >> host: i want to ask the question is it possible the behavior of some individual cops are what is making the police jobs more dangerous so for example if we look at the two cases that are older and not in
the book, we have five officers involved in the incident. 15 years 31 times and if we look at the situation there seven officers standing around and one is talking to him called before the officer jumped on his back and starts to choke him which is contrary and there's nothing that he says. they need constant training and use of force. in the use of force. the arrest is heartbreaking. that was a man understandably that said there is almost something tragic or noble about his protest -- >> host: a chicago youth asked if he hated the police and he said i absolutely don't. i need to place your position he says but i don't know if i called the police for help which officer is going to show up, the one that's going to help me or the one that's going to hurt me. what would be your take away
message for that young man and how can we ensure that if he called the police that we could get the officer that's going to help? >> guest: we need to make sure the commanders are paying close attention to officer behavior at the rate of police shootings in chicago is low compared to the death by criminal homicide. they are by no means representative of the entire police force. when they make mistakes unlike people in other professions like journalists and politicians, the consequences are dire but they are trying to do the right thing and save as many lives as possible and that includes minority. >> host: thank you so much for the time that you've taken. i think we both can agree that this is an issue that has been contentious in the past.
both the guardian and "the new york times" collaborated with the release and we were surprised to find in fact there were no other dealings. these were mostly written by mid-level officers going about their duties sometimes with interesting approaches and a style that was surprisingly readable and not bureaucratic and making efforts to understand the environments which they have
been posted and setting that information back to washington. >> "after words" airs every saturday at 10 p.m. and sunday at 10 p.m. eastern. you can watch all previous programs on the website, booktv.org. it is surprisingly hard for the media to debunk some of the statements in the ways which the people that believe those statements will find convincing. one of the things i talk about in the book is the movement that is essentially a reaction that focused on the use of reason and is most happy where arguments are based on evidence of fact. a reaction to that status part
of the reaction of the environment that said no, when we talk in public to each other is identity and solidarity in the community and what matters is my relationship to you which very quickly becomes further key index in association with the nation and the national community. so we talk honestly. and i think being authentic is in the eyes of the beholder. but people that struggle to appeal for leverage or exploit the idea, this begins in the 19th century and of course famously in 1930s, the fascists and of course germany
and italy it becomes central to their appeal and they try very hard to distinguish themselves in the way they speak from traditional rational politicians so they focus much more on the stories. i'm not like you. i understand you and what you aryou'regoing through and togete can ward off the threat for whoever that might be. it might be the elites. it might be the elite technocrats and us in the