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tv   Public Affairs Events  CSPAN  November 23, 2016 12:00am-2:01am EST

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relationship with us a long the demilitarized zone that is becoming more militarized. .. it was originally harry lee and was mentioned and described somebody as the greatest englishman east of suez before
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he assumed his role so he knew his western civilization. >> those of fantastic question. anyone else? i think which is one more time i would like to give a strong round of applause and support to our guests and thank them for this presentation. [applause] >> c-span's "washington journal", live every day with news a policy issue that impact you. coming up wednesday morning, an analysis of president-elect donald trump's infrastructure proposals. this challenges proposals. this challenges in the current state of the u.s. infrastructure the brookings instite's aaron klein. then washington examiner national security and defense reporter jamie mcintyre president-elect trumps national security agenda and his is decision to choose michael
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flynn's national security advisor. watch c-span's "washington jonal", live 7:00 a.m. eastern us wednesday morning. >> tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span to look at how the trump administration might approach biomedical innovation, healthcare and drug pricing. and. includes remarks from former fda associate commissioner here's a preview. >> the market went up right after the election, within hours of the election. in first droed and then went back up. the number of analysts in particular pointed out this is the time to invest in biopharmaceutical industry. i think they made that recommendation based on when andy was talking about but also another issue and that is the
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issue of the assault on drug pricing that has been taking place and was one of the cornerstones of secretary clinton's campaign. that assault on drug pricing could have had a continuing downside impact on the industry. i think the expectation now that secretary clinton is not in the white house is that at least to some extent, some of the pressure that places all of this emphasis on the price of drugs instead of talking about the value of drugs is going to
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settle down a bit. >> chicago ideas we get panel looked at race and the future of policing in america. and included a member of president obama's task force on 21st-century policing, former new york city police officer and law professors from the university of chicago and the john jay college of criminal this is one hour. >> clinic good afternoon. before we start i know gabriel had to welcome each other and if you want to a shout out for the chicago cubs while you're here you can do that as well. >> welcome, good afternoon, afternoon, and welcome to what we expect will be a very lively conversation about the police force of the future, the names of the cities ferguson, baltimore, baltimore, baton rouge, charlotte, chicago, dallas, suburban st. paul, the p list could go on. those are just a few of the cities in recent years that have push the issue of policing,
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often deadly interaction between police and those they serve the safety of both policing communities front and center. there's no question the current state of policing is an emotional and controversial subject that we are wrestling with over the country. consider some of the small phrases that get really big reactions, law and order, stop and frisk, black lives matter, blue lives matter, that is the backdrop of the conversation we are about to have this afternoon. most police officers do the jobi that we ask them to do, to protect and serve our communitieand they do quite i no matter what your perspective, there is a a building consensus that there needs to be changed. that the police force of the future must be different, what we ask a police officers to do beyond enforcing the law, how
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police are trained, how accountability is assigned, which policing methods they use, all use, all of those are up for debate today. this year, reportedly more than 700 people have been killed by police officers in the united states. a disproportionate number of them are people of color. we are here today to discuss why those exceptions are so numerous and to propose solutions. we have a little over one hour to do it so we are going to get started. we have assembled a group of experts with diverse opinions and backgrounds to talk usus through the issue. i like to introduce and bring them to the stage.n and request first is craig, professor vlad the university of chicago law school, it was his freedom of information act request that led to the release of the video of the plea shooting of look juan mcdonald in 2014. [applause]
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>> thank you second window right there, we welcome next eugene o'donnell, former new york city police officer now professor of law and police studies at john jay studies. welcome.. cedric alexand >> also joining us this afternoon, doctor cedric alexander public safety director of dekalb county, a clinical psychologist a blackhe law-enforcement executives. he is a member of of president obama's task force on 21st century policing. [applause]
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finally, marc lamont hill, a journalist, television host and professor of african-american studies at morehouse university and author of the new book nobody, casualties of americans were on the vulnerable from ferguson to flinton beyond. [applause] >> i think you and i expect to hold nothing back. i will start off with some news that was made yesterday whenfs,e there's an organization of police chiefs, the the international group of association of chief of police meeting when you talk about racism inside policing is a delicate issue, especially asofs
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many rank-and-file police officers come to resent accusations of systemic racismhe by groups such as black lives matter. i think it may have surprised a few people yesterday during the meeting of the association of police chiefs l en ter cunningham, the outgoing president of that group apologize for historical racism by law enforcement. he cited ths role of police as enforces of racist law such as jim crow he called it a source of today's mistrust between minorities and poce officers.ou i would like you to address this, if you think this is a step that police department should be taking, i know some folks at the meeting thought it was a step that went too far. market, i will start with you. >> that's a great'st you all for inviting me and it's great to see everyone here. this is a question i wrestle with. i was trying to look at the
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instances of state violence and then look at the historicalinni. underpinning. one of the things i come back to is the idea that we cannot think about racism in the context of policing. truly at the level of intention. if we continue to look for the foaming at the mouth of police officer will find some, but far more important and consistent is the number people were victimized by system that by o design and by structure leads to the over policing of communities at the extent of others.if you o they look at the psyche of officers and how they understand race. if you look at phillips study out of stanford he talk about the idea that black children are seen as older and more guilty than their white counterparts,
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that leads to tamir rice spent 12 being reddest 20. that doesn't mean the officer meant to kill a 12-year-old just means that might be part of the psychology embedded in it. the question is, does not apology help, absolutely. it acknowledges, absolutely. it acknowledges there's a structural issue we must be accountable for even if you are the quote unquote good officer. finally i say we have been using the bad apple but there's a bunch of good apples and there's bad apples. i think there might be the wrong way to think about it. it still pushes everything at the individualism. there might be something that renders all apples bad even if they look good and want to bethf good there might be a problem so let's think about this in a different way. >> how do you think about it doctor alexander? >> it's great that he apologize, and certainly for someone who is representative of the largest
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police organization in the world the international association chief of police i think it was a welcome apology, however i do not think it is it is going to change very much to be perfectly honest with you. it is great to have the apology but what is really going to be profound is if policing across this country is going to apologize for his past deeds is that it also has to come locally.tive communities i think local police officials in their own respective communities need to have thesawn courage to do it we saw the president of iac p do the other day because that is the real test, that's where the real apology in the net in that neighborhood and community were historically we all know
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policing has been utilized over the years particularly gone back with jim crow and silva rights have been utilized by government to keep people oppressed, suppressed. but i think what's going to be really important is for us as law-enforcement officials to go back to our owne communities and make these apologies for the things that we could have done better over the years and then promising to do something a lot different and great as we move forward. >> the big news that icp was made by the fbi director who basically said the police profession is in an irreparably damaged state and that's correct. nobody wants the job at thisbo point, nobody feels they can dot the job in urban america the commission 50 years ago says you should have a four year degree, 1% have that, chicago can't even can't get 30 credits are trying
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to get police officers going forward, these are real issues, we need to get into substancefi how to go forward, were sitting in a city where ten people were shot yesterday, to kill, 113, one homicide reclassification oy a kid whose body was found burning in the victims in the communities have been silence. i would respectfully suggest you that cops have been totally silence. nobody talks to them everybody can do their job better, everybody's an expert, they would not do it for five minutes but the communities on the ground have been utterly silenced in cities like chicago baltimore philadelphia, hundred of thousands of people leaving the cities because of disorder in fear and crime and asking for more police productivity and we have seen new collapse and police productivity the self-appointed elite has decided
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to have a conversation that does not connect with people. with caused irreparable damage, damage, not only do we have a collapse of recruiting, we have an exit us at the moment from big city police departments. people people are flying out of the new york city police90% of e department. 90% of the cops say they would not recommend that job to anybody. there was a cadre of young people that wanted to be police people, the institution cannot survive three years and more than probably a billion dollars of negative, insensate i contextualize lacking in nuance coverage of what the police did and were happy to go through that. it's a good day to talk about the forward, not to go back. i think the apologies go back we need to talk about a post policing america. we are not going to find the people you would want in a police uniform to do the work.ce you may find somebody, you might
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have a department of employment but you won't have to apartment of police unless we as a society come together in a very unified way. i do believe it's a unifying topic actually. if you get on the ground and talk to people you'll find out there's a tremendous amount of m room for -- police remain one of the most esteemed professions in the country. ironic, they're being bashed by lawyers and politicians and journalists, 5% approval rating of those professions pleaser -- it's ironic indeed but it's a good time to have a conversation of how do we reimagine public safety with a shrinking role for the police. >> that's a lot to take in there. silencing of voices i would suspect to have something to say about that. >> let me start with the apology
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but i think is a good thing. i think it's a step in the right direction. i also think there are risks and not the risk that my colleague at the same risk my colleagues are talking about we talk about apologizing for the past, i think there's a risk of sameis that was then and this is now. that the stuff that happen then should have never happened, we acknowledge acknowledge that and i think it's important to acknowledge it. but i think it's even more important to acknowledge some of the things mark was talking about which our present-dayes racism and not just the viral and stop at the present day reality that all too many black and brown folks and low-income folks have had to address. that is the first step in terms
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of looking forward. to me the the first step to move forward is it begins with acknowledging the reality on the ground.and i i think we may have different ideas and views as to what those realities may be based on where we sit but i also want to say to you and to everyone here being e one of these professor, lawyers civil right folks elite, that i come from and i'm a fan of police. i i'm not one of those, we need to get rid ofrid of, gei law-enforcement. one of the reasons why i am hopeful for 21st century policing is it begins with thed creative energies and activism of young folks around the nation that forced us to reckon with and acknowledge the realities is real. i'm also hopeful because i mean every day too and i know about
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the thousands of honorableer officers out there who hate this is much as i do and i think weo need to move toward a time where were empowering the officers,aj the vast majority to feel comfortable stepping out in one point, in chicago we would notio be having this conversation in chicago someone from withint law-enforcement hadn't had the courage to give me a holler and let me know about what happened. we're not be having thishe sad conversation today. the sad reality is that person cannot be known. they put their life on the line. they put the family on the line and the career on the line byd. stepping forward. when i have conversations with police officers run the united states will hear good stories like that were officer step four but then i asked the nest question and it's been rare, to
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make good people will tell me good stories about officers who made dramatic changes in departments and will expose corruption but when i ask and someone give me a story about a happy andy for the officer who a step forward i get a lot of silence. and that has to change. >> i want to talk to the big thing that happened after ferguson was that the president decided we need to have a conversation about policing and he formed the task force whichan you are a member of. one of the things recommended was about collecting data to really find out what's happening. i wanted to know, what is your franking on furnished opinion about whether the white house current push for this kind off g data collection and to share more data about the use of force, the use of guns orr weapons against suspects, set really going to produce good,
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national numbers when you have a police force across the country that is so diverse. there were nearly 1800 police to carmen. >> 18000. >> sorry about that. 18000 so all with different ways of and this is voluntary. so do you expect really to havea true numbers about what is happening across the country? >> i think what's critically important as were having a conversation and one thing thate we talked about during the creation of those task force recommendations was to take aalt look at data and how much, what we don't know we cannot measure. until we know the number of shootings that are taking place, the number of near misses, the
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number of charges that are being brought against police officers, you take this information as it relates to policing and community interactions, traffic stops whatever the more information that we have about a particular agency, the better description we have of who that agency is. if you think about it anecdotally you can't to it. you can't measure it with your i, you have to have hard science and hard numbers to look at. so to your question with 18000 police departments across the country and the government is not going to mandate, at least not at this point mandate agencies to take part in this because that is going to required resources, money, training and so forth but a lot of departments that want to be t ahead of the curve and have the
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money to do this and gather this data to use the latest t technology that is out there as it is being developed, think you see a better police department because when you can take a looi at what it really is your officers are doing every day in the street, to get that information and analyze it, and what you're doing good you cann say were doing good at and the things were not in greater then. these are things in which wenk o need to look at. >> i agree. you need data to expect people to make sense of neighbors without systematic data collection is troublesome at best there are two questions, one is should we be collecting data on please. yes. i yes. i can't think of any good reason not to.ta wire would we not want to know the information. but a second piece of the question is is it helpful and doesn't make it hopeful for different outcome.
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i'm a backup for a second essay i come come out of it abolition is tradition a radical not a formless one. i'm imagining a world without prison and police. so i'm always skeptical of reform gesture because it makes us think that prisons and police as an institution or selvage about. i'm saying they are not. so before the empirical investigation of a down with that. however, i do think that to the extent we're going to keep track of police we have to do this the problem is a police are responsible for collecting the data and classifying categories which is historically what we have done that were asking them to police themselves empirically that makes me skeptical.reclassi you mentioned accurately the reclassification of murders. the when there number games to be played how do you classify homicide. there's always way whether it's
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for funding or crime going up and down, so the higher stakes we have received all the time the more we make people vulnerable and say these numbers will dictate your future now, and invites the kind of dishonesty with the numbers. when when my suggesting? a greater oversight. it should be mandatory all police departments to that. i can't imagine a police department not being forced to keep track of the people they shoot for the officers that get shot or the traffic stops are all these things are things we should know. people say we don't have money for but the war on drugs produced a bizarre bizarre amount of militarization of police they had had a murder in decades suddenly had military grade equipment. we found money to militarize police departments. we can find can find money to do qualitative analysis. this with reg
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>> let me say this in regards to what mark is talking about and he's on point, i don't think for me as a police administrator iff i have the ability to collect data, i don't need to be the one to examine it i need someone to look at it and understand it and someone who can tell me what it is we need to do different because he's right, i can look at it and skewed how i want to these numbers don't look the wai want to so let me interpret it a different way but i think when you have a group of people outside of your organization that you are working with that can collect the data the data is goes into a mainframe somewhereo and you can look at it and discuss it and talk about the things that we can do very differently, that's three important, the whole teat key is the more transparent we are as a police agency that begins to
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relieve some of this distressed that we are constantly hearing.. were going to have policing in this country that will not change. at least not in my lifetime, mark is much younger than i. >> not that much. but probably not in mine. it be wonderful if we lived in a place where we didn't have to have prisons and police, but the fact of the matter is that today as we know we do. so how do we operate in theop system that were in in a way that gives the communities across this country a better view into their local police and to have some influence into how their services delivered to them by their local police. >> i went task because i don't want to get too far into the weeds on this but we talk about 18000 police department the big police departments are going to
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be doing this but you talk about the smaller departments i want you to address that, what kind of thing are we going to be seen within. is it going to promote more transparency and is it going to make policing more effective? >> you don't mind backup. facts matter less and less every day. a if you are see good example that but the police dialogue as a great example of this, the the media decided approximately three years ago you comes back the day that this was going to be an issue, please deadly force was going to be an issue and they would run with that issue particularly when they could range racialized that. i believe that provably. the fact that many more white people are killed by the police, the fact that we live in a nation where there so much gun violence, the fact is city after city if you took a murder map and he planted the murders one t the map in philly, baltimore
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chicago there are neighborhoods you cannot see anymore.ym the fact that within a year to in some streets and some cities more people are murder then whole other neighborhoods in a decade. the fact that police are put into that situation, the fact that the laws favorable to the police and the situations in a way that is very hard to change. you could go on and on with this. nuance in fact became an utter casualty not that they're not real issues here but this is been a media campaign that really rapid plates the blogosphere. the new york times and the wall street journal is in the forefront trying to create a story and they want the story to be there they still don't have it when they try a wrong number please kill this many people in a year. i'll go back quickly a policewoman i know very well the new york city police department
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5 department one of the most estranged police department on the planet. 5 million calls a year, approximately 50 shootings., almost invariably against an armed assailant. yet if you went into the streets of new york and you talk to people, large number of people would say the police are always killing people. if we are waiting for data and i know people think the data misrepresentation is only in thh right, we have to get the politics out of this. we have to see what really works for public safety we have to talk about victims, we need to acknowledge that in police department shooters are shooting and not getting caught. if if the cops are going out catching the shooters would have more officer involved shootings. and in cities have a policear department by name only. the cops get there when they get
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there. i had an african-american woman whose son was murdered in the city and she's not part of an elite and when the police were being bad she said i don't turn to politians and lawyers when i need help, i turn to the police. t we have to have a real nonpartisan substantive forward thinking conversation about howm to secure communities. could the politics out, take, take off the partisan political blinders and see what's really out there. >> what you think about that? investigate and look at cases of abuse. is this something that is a media storm created or something people need to be taking a look at? i cannot a disagree more. i mean in the same way right now we have presidential candidates
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and this is all a conspiracy, this is a media conspiracy conspiracy by the new york times. this is a media conspiracy with anybody who disagrees with this, i think seriously the attitude this us against them mentality was the last thing we need at this time. if we want, and i do believe that we need police. if we want to have effective please we have to have some trust. trust doesn't come unless it's earned. so if we are going to have a conversation about reality, it being blind to data i don't want to see at all on a no, also with the same fbi director said in the same breath is it's a national disgrace that if you ask how many people were killed by police in america lester wele could shrug our shoulders so it is more than just encouragingin 18000 law-enforcement agencies
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to collect information, it's actually requiring it in a standardized way. that's how we have informed conversations, publice, conversations about what needs to be done not just knee-jerk stuff. i'll stay this, human dad isi s matt matters too. i've spent the last four years talking about black high school students about chicago and about their everydaa experience with police, kids ind school and what i'm told and this is now thousands of hours we spent with kids would break any human being's heart. heart. we have to do something better.i we have in some neighborhoods in chicago less than a 20% clearance rate for murders. not surprisingly those neighborhoods are the same that we want to look at data were we see the greatest numbers of complaints of police abuse.
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>> police are fault i can't help us say police are at fault. because are not solving crime. >> about being honest. you you are arguing against this, i don't want data and transparency i never said that. i said it won't matter. >> so the truth doesn't matter my point is the truth matters the truth is where we need to start. we want to fix things. if we care we care about policing in our safety about our communities this is what you said we need honesty. honesty starts with not just honesty on one side or the othee but honesty, let's collect and look at what the data say let's talk to the people who have been most secluded in thesees conversations. so why are please having to recall to solving cases. if the kids i talk with none of them trust the police were goino to the police even went 70 close
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to them gets hurt. something is wrong. unless we do something better and i hope we don't want the vast majority of our children distrusting police. >> it's interesting. >> maybe they should, werere beginning the premise before making the premise that police are trustworthy then sure we a don't want to create a world where people don't trust police but if i say i don't trust politicians at some point there's a structure questions we have to raise. to your point and i wasi listening carefully to what you're saying i think we don't want to underestimate the value of media hurt citizens raising these issues. mediate they want to talk about the black kids than any more than politicians did or anybody else. when trayvon martin was killed
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that the first moment. >> let's be clear that was the police and the vigilante. i know the people are mixing and matching we have to get her facts straight. >> my fax or straight. w >> what i'm saying in trayvon martin was killed that was first big moment posttraumatic king where the media was talking about gun violence and death. it was the first big 21st century trial where we started talking about the issues. that started a wave of active is some weird dream defenders and black lives matter began. then they started talking about police violence. by the time we get to august 9 when mike brown died suddenly w there's a movement. it took months for us to hold police accountable for trayvon martin. is that police went bring charges. it was a # campaign that brought
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the spotlight and said he's black, young, he still matters you have to do something about this. so is calling police to do a job and media paid attention to it. it's not like there like. >> but this is in the elitesh t. argument let's abolish police but that's great if your children are being killed police abolition is a great argument if you live in a compound or you live in a dormant building. how many people left the city because a police abuse and i'm not excusing police abuse. how many people left the city and other cities and it's in the millions because of the collapse. >> that have to be data collection. but you get my point.he cities l >> these cities have hollowed out and if you want to sell abolition to people. >> i'm just let me finish. so so the first thing is i think there's a movement here. the second thing is the question of race.
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i don't think it is some kind of hocus-pocus by the media toby raise the question of race. the question is proportionality. based on your percentage of the- population. >> what percentage of homicide in a big city. >> a list everybody most every single victim in a big city, in a city like this you would not find, you'd have to go for a long time to find white victims in the city. >> let's make a commitment for one another. >> i'm totally okay. >> it but i haven't been able to make the argument. you disagree do something ire didn't even say swank i promise i'll be fast. the question of race has to at least be race. one personality of police shootings of the personality of crimes. which neighborhoods are are being policed in over police. when we talk about will stop and frisk. [inaudible]
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that is a race target a policy.e they didn't say let's go find the black people but the notion of this order which is theate fr predicate for for stop and frisk and was the other one broken windows policing is the p perception of crime. and studies show that is the link to property and race. my so i think those things matter. finally abolition. were here to talk about big ideas. i'm not. i'm not here to sell abolition tomorrow. this is a long-term dream. in 1619 it was impossible to imagine a world without slavery. in 1819 it was impossible to imagine it i'm saying let's have a vision of what the world could look like and then engage inat,d practical policies right now that can on one hand stop some of the pain people are feeling.
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i'm not in a gated building, i'm out here doing violence interruption in stopping the stuff that's happening. but at the same time, this cannot be the end game. >> felt felt what policies keep people safe look at root causes and look at karl marx. what keeps people safe on the ground. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> you can do both. you can release things on the ground and have policies that are not abstract. like a civilian review board. >> let me ask you this. doctor alexander and i'll let you get inches you are part of the naval gazing i guess is part of the task force of 21st century policing
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>> so let me talk about this from a police administrator perspective. i listen to my colleagues here about things very differently and they talk about things differently based on what their experiences has been but one of one of the hardest things to talk about his policing and who is right and who's wrong, who's on first, who's on second. it's merely because the introduction of policing into communities of color have been wrong right from the exception. there is never been any trust. this goes goes back to what i start moments go where police acro this country was used topsf suppress groups of people and keep them in place and keep them on the side of the tracks so as
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we move through the decades and the centuries some of that got better but it didn't change in a lot of places. we know in many communities across this country people don't trust police juste as doctors referring to because they have betrayed communities in which they have police.av they have been witnesses and put them in a way that's been on the front street. people don't have a reason to want to tell who shot johnny down the street even though they know who did it. they want to but there's a fear because there's never been trust whatsoever. between policing. some of the horrific things that policing have done that innocent people over the history of policing you don't have to go back long time to know this so
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this is where it gets complicated and complex. whether it's the southside of chicago first word in houston or south end of the county of dekalb. w regardless of where come you have people there who don't feel connected to police for a variety of different reasons. but i think one thing we have to be able to do if we're going to advance policing, we have to understand that when a a predominantly african-american community says to me well cheap i have a lot of crime in mye sho community, rickets, robbery, truck sales and young black people killing and shooting each
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other. i need police presence. so i put police presence downt e there i went police get there they go down hopefully they're not violating people's rights and they arrest someone's cousin, and you know it the argument is the next day, there's too many police down here. so. so you cannot have it both ways. but if i'm not there be ag prese present invisible it means suppressing any crime or keeping people from getting hurt becomes more difficult but if i put too many police and their and they start to interact with people in the community who are not doing what they're supposed to be doing, they are breaking the law
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than i could get complaints. i'm not saying officers are right all of the time to go there, but many times so nobody's sitting around the circle is wrong about the perception, it's just that were seeing it very difficult and it's so convoluted and commu complex. those communities want me in there and want policing there.oe the police is not a result of a bad economy there just the ones have to respond and when they do they end up with negative interaction that may take place.
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>> i'll let you respond first off to some of the things that a been set. >> this comes on the heels of director alexander if you like to folks so i'm not advocating for people to trust police because that's the right thing to do, i'm saying there is a real objective problem and please cannot get effective without trust. the only way in here so you solve the problem is by being honest with people. by not lying.. also by being accountable. fundamentally accountable for the community we serve. workinga i talked about working with the working talking with kids over the last few years spent a lot of times in the hospital, among the things that and it is likee
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there's two different constitutions that apply, there's the constitution that applies in lower income black and brown communities in chicago and elsewhere and then there's the constitution that a teacher my law school classroom they don't get stop unless unless you have committed a crime or if you're armed and dangerous. part of what and this is part of what chicago makes new york part of stop and frisk until recently, chicago put new york to shame in terms of stop and frisk. these are just everyday kids who live with the ever present possibility of being stopped and searched and treated like a criminal. and every kid also knows and on the south side of chicago and
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even somewhere been shot and killed by police side also also has the potential to escalate. so as we talk about an everyday experience what i say for the m vast majority of our kids in chg chicago and black kids in chicago high schools are telling me this. i interviewed 200 schools, not a single kid other than my daughter who deserved it, that's a different story, different toa panel, it had ever been stopped or searched by police. so until also when and i guess the biggest thing the kids taught us was that there is not going to be this distrust until and unless they see police department stand behind the
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officers who smile and treat them with respect but who do not stand behind the officers who abuse the. the reality in chicago and other places across the nation is that there's an utter lack of police accountability when policeen officers abuse their powers. >> vindicated the fourth amendment let's acknowledge a city that once had 2200 murders see get to the airport and don't have a fourth amendment. some not suggesting that gray area, the reality is those who helped tear down policing in america that by doing that they have helped to create issues not have cost lives and their children dead, no question about it. maybe some you have taught because police are not out there
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anymore. the bad guys know it and in fact people are in prison or will eni up in prison because they werere not intercepted when they're carrying guns. this is a serious conversation conversation that should be had in the community.l the philadelphia with the mayor's race was running for mayor and it was more support for stop and frisk in the african-american community than anywhere else. we have to get real, get on the ground and talk to people. it's perfectly. it's perfectly will to talk about the constitution and the law school setting and to dance on the head of a constitutional law pin. the reality is that lives are being lost all over the place. shooters are not being caught. do the police want to go out and get a shooter at 4:00 o'clock ic the morning and be involved in an officer involved shooting. the default setting is to do nothing. i was doing research and the superintendent in chicago, if in
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doubt, in doubt to do nothing. we have police forces like that all over the country. >> do you agree that police are doing nothing because of ferguson a factor -- >> i think there may be some sittings where that may be more of an issue than others. i can speak specifically to my community and say no. but i can look to a couple couple of other communities across the country and could say that could be the case. here's the thing about stop and frisk. it went totally unsupervised. if you don't have probable cause or reasonable cause to stop some you just can't stop me because were the two black guys walkinga down the street. you understand what i'm saying. what happened with stop and frisk, yes crime went down significantly. a lot of guns and a lot of bad people were taken off the street but also people like myself and mark, writes got
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violated. how did that leave us feeling, he left us totally against the police. here's what the president of the united states says. >> you can call him brock. [laughter] i didn't mean that. so here's what the president of the united states said. that we have to bring down crime th , but we can't do it by raising public resentment toward the police, we have to find a way to do both. the only way you do both quite frankly it goes back to what what was say religiously is that you have to have community engagement and trust and relationship. we can look back and change what has
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happened, going forward we have to figure out how do we create in our communities that have so much distrust for the police at this very moment, who have lost so much legitimacy and communities, how do we get that back. >> i'm saying that can't happen in a manner that is disconnected from the structural issues that produce these things. for example, i agree, if youat stop and frisk everybody in america or new york you'll catch a lot more guns that if you don't. but your point at what cost do we want to do that. so how do we strike a balance, or we could dream bigger and say how do weth imagine a world and their countries who do this in real life, they don't have guns with the united states have guns, how can we also imagine a context where there's not as many guns or robberies. that's not dreaming, that same investing in jobs in head start
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and art, these are things that we can do to structurally get rid of it. but then we also have to imagine those things in connection with the future policing. even if you believe in policing, as your long-term and short-term goal the radical reform comes from changing the relationship between police and community, for example where i'm in philadelphia because i'm there, one of the things we do is cap watch programs. and we do neighborhood watch and we do conflict resolution with young people. we do gun buyback programs, we do things so please do it because we have a greater trust of what we can do it our own community. we police our self. that becomes the goal of what i'm talking about so for me that's future policing. the first chapter of my book, which is on sale right now, you look at atomic ferguson that's 20000 people, 16000 citizens have warrants.
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16000 to 20000 people that's unconscionable.'s not that's not because police decided they wanted to give everybody the tickets, what i'm saying is if you have assistant where the town business -- there a no jobs and i have 16,000 people with warrants and most of them are black so it's a racial thing. did you ever go to traffic cour in a major city you like why people are really good drivers only black people are here. so you ask about the race dynamics but you also have to look at the structural piece that leads to atomic fergusonnt turning police into tax collectors and citizens into vulnerable people. >> where you go to the audience in just a a moment tht but mr. o'donnell i want to give and ask a question. we been talking a lot about they community and how they feel about police, what we have hearo
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from you is that police are full of resentment too. if you look at the 21st-century task century task force and all of the recommendations it provides to say this is how we need to have police and community working together, sir anything that police buy into and how do you get them to say this is okay where these are things that we think need to change. >> will political people have failed so badly for so many years, but the highest for doctor alexander that report make community policing a panacea.a chicago is had community policing for 25 but you have to look and say what in policing to need to be doing that involves getting offenders. it's a conflicted, adversarial job which is maybe why we have lost our appetite for this.
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certainly you and i can have young people doing it, we need to talk about evolving the communities and offloading responsibilities. mental health, diction, we need to look at drugs and noncustodial arrest, civil enforcements, strategies that do not involve wrestling around the ground with people because for all the talk that we've heard for so many people i've yet to hear anybody tell me how the police can make an arrest of a resisting person without using force. the core issue they deal with. they are charged with using forcand there's plenty of vi videos a police officers being murdered and you can see how fast it happened. you can see how unscripted it is a there are no rules. he goes from cordial to homicidal the second we need to have a serious conversation. i think all the action, the big
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thinking should be shrinking the police role. then the big service role that is mostly what they do. in suburban america that's what they do. in urban america they have been in the default setting for lack of gun regulation. we need to figure out a way to shrink the role of police and really it's a democracy issue. the bloggers have taken over. and whether you think it's a media conspiracy donald trump is getting votes because people do believe the media is dishonest on major public issues. we have to come face-to-face wi that. there is a perception that the media picks up issues hammer summit personally i could tell you from dealing with you they're not always involved with the nuances and the particulars, they want the visceral, the emotional and the devices. let's face it.
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>> that's why the task force is suggesting a lot of the data collection comes forward so we can get rid of that and see what's really happening on the ground. i'm ago to the audience we have about ten minutes where folks, i have a lot of folks, let me start a personal come by with microphone. >> come down to the aisle people microphones on either side. let's start over here. [inaudible] my question was curious as to what you think of the tactical initiatives you can do on the ground. [inaudible] and are there any grassroots initiatives or initiatives in place and more transparency, it
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sounds like. >> not body cameras. it is inevitable but inconsistent with getting people into the police profession you want. it's causing more police officers to get it injured. causing more people to be arrested. it's not elitist industry formulation shoved down people's throat without debate. down peos if you asked people in neighborhoods what they want cameras would not be on their list. . . . ex post facto critiquing the place is going to be a conversation. >> that i mean how does it create more danger for the police? >> for anyone who's been in unscripted argument forget about a physical confrontation how fast can they deteriorate? part of the whole camera issue is that the idea that police are equals. police cannot be closed through the -- if the police articles they lose her lack of a better term the upper hand in the street. by the way anecdotally do have a
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huge problem. more people are being pulled over and saying who the hell are you to pull me over? they are not making requests. they're making demands. there's a study that shows they have to have the first -- in a situation. c let me have you addressed the question though. what is being done here in chicago to create a better atmosphere? you said podey cameras are not it. craig federman is there anything happening here that will make things more probable to people? >> i'm going to hit the big things. one starts with honesty and i think there could be a revolution. the jackets out of the box in the camp at the jack back in the box. one of the things i was exposed in chicago and not just a chicago issue is the reality of the code of silence from top to bottom in that department. and so this means in terms of what needs to happen in the
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things that are happening and beginning to happen in chicago but they need to go further than where they have gone is putting in place of real regime of accountability. that's how you build trust. that's how also you improve safety. the other thing and i guess this is not a chicago thing but they they -- because they're good examples of where we have seen notches in suburbia where police departments have taken different tax and i challenge the notion that community policing has gone on for decades in chicago. if you were here you would know that that is just simply not true. there has been a talk about community policing. something that has been utterly defunded in chicago and from way back when but i will say because i actually believe in community policing and i have seen what community policing can do. one example far from, on the other side of country richmond
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california i still lived in the bay area and this is right next to oakland, california. .. they had a street teams, aggressive units, black of accountability. from the movie, chris magnus and at that point, homogeneous, one of those now and of the chief then moves from fargo north dakota and implements the same that he implemented and white communities and he had police officers that were going to putt the police in and fight the
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union on this. they would get points for doing the more difficult things. things. things. ischemic north dakota would applaud you. way up. >> the rate at which police were solving crime went up and there wasn't a
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>> i won't have you do this with the changes here but [inaudible] [applause] first, you terrify me. the same logic about [inaudible]
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speeten what are your thoughts on restructuring the fraternity they don't look out for
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>> it doesn't mean we shouldn't be apo be [inaudible] [applause] restructured the fraternity and how to be defined. >> whoever answers i need you to do it in 30 seconds. >> they have their own organizations separate from the community and thatcommunity ande have to continued to neither of
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us are going to function without the other. you can't have good public safety if you don't have the involvement and you can't have the good police officers if you don't have involvement. it they do but you don't hear about it, get in front of her or testify against other officers doing things that are wrong. that is a great question.d we are getting there and we have today to make sure we need
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mechanisms where people outside our. obviously it is mething in the police department but you need to make sure we have oversight. people need to take control.
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we have to stop criminalizing things that turn into the structural problems to the extent we will have police. i'm going to say thank you to all for participating on the future of policing. [applause] elbow
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[inaudible conversations]
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sponsored by the adversity of california irvine school of law. topics include gun control, racial profiling and mental health. this is an hour and a half. >> i will ask you to please silence your cell phones.
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joining me today is an esteemed panel of people who are providing diverse perspectives on gun violence and police violence in the united states today. they include civil rights attorney robert bennett. they include jack cole, founder of law enforcement against prohibition, include judge glenda hatchet who is representing the family in an tragedy we saw aired out by diamond from old world wide.
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we are also joined by jeffrey is a mother who is here that will share the news with you about the tragic death of her daughter who died in a mass shooting guns adown by an ak-47. we also have. it's how they launched 28 loved ones and friends in the south side of chicago. something that no one shouldth a have to in indoor. we have the international academy for wall and mental health. why have we brought this panel of experts to you we have done so because gun violence is --
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you you can't look at through one lens.of impacts it impacts every aspect of a person's life in the united states and they will talk about that today. it's important to think about these issues not only as political issues because we do expect and want congress to take action as many have said above in the newspaper reporting this, on television screens, protest outside of congress to pass the gun reform legislation. the amendment, restricting researchers. many have talked about the nra as stifling congress to do anything effective and efficient
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in this particular domain. but in all of that conversation, one aspect we also care for is the trauma that is experienced by the poor and in communities of color. while the weekends it was the highest level of gun violence they've seen and bee then folloe up monday also by similar monday statistics. who botherto send counselors to visit with poor children living in the southside of chicago ansouth side ofchicago , they don't get the type is intended to serve and help they need at all but their voices into their lives matter and we will be hearing about that today but i also want to flag another
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issue for you and that is the impact on vulnerable communitiee generally. each day death by gun violence increases and women, children and others particularly a devastating toll women living in the united states of america are 11 times more likely to be murdered with guns than any other high income country. the connection between domestic violence and gun violence is remarkable. the presence of a gun and a domestic violence situation increases the risk of homicide for women by 500% yet in some
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states there are legislators pushing for doctors to have in order so they are not able to ask a woman who lives in su a situation whether there is a gun in the home.. we see similar tragedies of children anwithchildren and thod about today.y. we have a tight agenda for you today. we are being covered by c-span and we want to thank the audience for tuning in today. first. we will have a panel discussion and q&a good afternoon.
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i live here in washington, d.c., anon march 30, 2010 was a nice i will never forget. my only child was done down atak the worst shooting in 16 years prior to the navy yard, not most people know that because it's not the way they report stories from the children are the victims do not have long hair, blue eyes and dark skin. i daughter attended a funeral earlier that day. the young man was gunned down by the same individuals and a lot of people ask me how does my daughter's shooting intercept with police shootings.
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people are running aroundund seeking revenge. that wasn't brought to the community's attention. so as a mother, as a parent i should have had the information given to me to know how to protect my child, and i won't allow my child to leave home -. her shoulder was blown open with an her friend was shocked and then i was an ak-47.
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so my question is at what point did you know there was going to be retaliation and that they knew immediately. going into a hill with a search warrant and refuse to do so because the time they received the warrant. so. my daughter wasn't in the wrong place at the wrong time. i bought a home in southeast dc. i paid taxes, worked hard, i'm educated and my daughter is the same. i allowed her to drop hershould
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backpack off but instead she was slaughtered with three different weapons and shot indiscriminately and no one here seems to care. no one in america seems to care. my child was taken from me and my future generation. th was the only child that i have been a clever half. i do not get the joy of becoming a grandmother were to experience her going to college as she was going that fall. a lot of people. we believe the same color wanthe to pollute the same air. our government needs to do better with the law and protecting all americans, not just certain. we are in the first world country and we should startwe ai acting. speaking of animals i find it
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almost kind of like. they wanted to have a call in action because there was a black labrador killed in virginia. i'm not saying to gun down an animal is not. for us to do something for an animal that would call to action for anything that is. although for the united states of america the only stories that seemed to move are the ones pushed to the forefront through the media or when the victims with different than myself. and i just want to- my thing
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is i want us to do better from the media standpoint. i want us to do better from the human standpoint and from what i said, you are elected to do something and i don't think that is to allow any and everyone to have guns and freely run down the streets and do whatever they would like to do. we have to do better than what we've done. this shouldn't be what my daughter would have turned 23 this december and instead of having a birthday, i don't know what she would look like as an adult. look at us as a human standpoint. when one mother cries, every mother should cry because that is how i do. i don't focus on this happened
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over there. when one mother hurts, we all hurt. find one of father. when one violent the all should feel that. it's a ripple effect or should be. not one of human is morethan valuable. let's stand together and get some kind of resources put into the communities. let's watcthe things going o in t surneibooo. mo gn ngs you can do
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in the community, reach outside of the box. [applause]t one that spoke at the town hall wanted to emphasize all livedli within. about the gun violence particularly when we focus on people of color is that their kids must've been doing something wrong.
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describing the kind of things we expect that middle-classid families do and many poor d families have done and that is not a matter of wrong time, wrong place and read next i would like to call on candy.
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good afternoon. i'm from chicago. i'm 28, i will be 29 thursday. i helped raise him, do you understand.e.
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i did everything they tell you to do. you know how they tell you to vote, they tell you to stand up in your community. they tell you to tell your friends put their guns down. they tell you to go to your local youth center and peaked with the police -- be friends with the police. i do everything but nothing we seem to be getting in chicago is working. i will never forget getting the call on july 29 from my cousin's mother telling me that our babyo is gone. this was the weekend of my family reunion, the weekend i said i'm going to take some time, and i'm going to do with r the average maloney will do, spend time with your family and
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friends. people don't understand the devastation that it is in chicago for us. i live in fear. i don't like going to social i don't like being in public. i would rather stay home and watch tv because if i go out, anything can happen. in chicago and other urban place in america, funerals have become our family reunions, facebook posts. i've been to more than i have
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been weddings and baby showers, have.g told i've mom because we don't have the resources to help, i had to come out of my pocket and hope berry a 16-year-old young male. i call on the leadership the day before the election and i said listen, what's more important, to fight and show that we support our babies were to continue to knock on doors, say give me your vote so i can do absolutely nothing for you. no one with these young grieving pressman, juniors and seniors. i was the only one there but then it took me back to my ptsd.
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when i was their age i experienced the same thing. a friend i had just seen guns down.n no counselors, pastors just angry thinking this is what life is about for me. a lot of young people don't even dream. i'm going to law school working on my masters. but the fear of being able to lose my life, that's what i'm fighting. i'm fighting to live and protecy my ten year old son because i don't know. i was here july 5, 2 weeks before my cousin was gunned down and i took part in the action wireline went to jail downstairs in the capital to ask congress to hold a vote on gun violence.
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did they call the vote, absolutely not. this has been our fight and flee intand we are being ignored. it seems no one wants to talk about it but they want to talk about chicago in their speeches and presentations. but as i go through and mymy friends go through in chicago is devastating. not only are we faced with a gun violence problem in chicago, we are faced with a policg problem. families who were fighting just to get justice for the families cope with the chicago police department and they are treated worse. they tell us in chicago where you've all worried about the police.
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we are living in constant fear. and if you can help us, say chicago, help chicago needs to be that as as a state of emerg. on my way here come the 17 people shot and killed in one s weekend. they are mutual friends so now they are grieving and asking met how are you doing. it pains my heart so thatba because i just don't know. i did everything i could can do.
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i even wrote legislation on the assault weapons ban. please help us.ey want to save they say black people want to be parents but not everybody wants to be pents. can we be mentors, despite what we do i have 300 kids at a bonfire this weekend and they rode horses but did that stop anything? i'm only one person and i'm doing it out of my pocket so anybody in here listening, take a stand against gun violence. don't think that this is just a black issue or gang it's not just gang violence, its innocent people being done gonen restaurants, going to the movie. i know her son ~ coming out of
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the church and what we focus on the scope of the movie theater in broad daylight. i spoke to the mother before i left and i said i will try my best. i even spoke to in other and said we are with you. we need to do something about it in this country. thank you for listening but please get active in your respective species. [applause] >> thank you so much. she helps to fill the void. the viewing audience may not see have a packed audience that
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wished to be here and many of them are around her age and ca relate to what she said. how many of you use social media such as facebook, how many of you connect with your friends on facebook. what would it be like if you could not if when you went on it was blank, there was no reunione or meet you tomorrow or let's get togetr. next i would like to call judge glenda hatchet representing philado castile family. >> thank you professor goodwin n i want to thank you for your work and that if your tea of yod it's a privilege to be here. i have to tell you ms. jeffries
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whispered to me i was at her daughter's school and her daughter remembers me being involved at that school. i'm told this morning i never connected the dots. you are not alone in this fight. i want to use my time efficiently so i will read excerpts from a letter i sent to attorney general loretta lynch dated august 2 after philado castile was shot and killed on july 6 then i will quickly close with three planes i think arenkt very important to this conversation and i thin thank af you for being here. in the letter to the attorney general i begin by saying he was a 32-year-old african-american m male shot to death but o the sat
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anthony minnesota police officer ahead of the examiner determined that he died from multiple gunshot wounds and ruled his death a homicide. in recent months there's been an alarming number of policemi shootings resulting in selfless death highlighting the concern about the capacityf several law enforcement departments to ensure public safety while safeguarding deeply enshrined constitutional guarantees of fairness and justice for all. the next section is about the video recording. the nation watched graphic, gruesome, live streamed video of his bloodied body across the vehicle's front seat.
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it captured the audio and visual recordings of the critical moments immediately after he was shot multiple times. during the video a devastated that clear up server that we all know now as diamond reynolds provided a detailed account contemporaneously with the unlawful shooting. without any type of reflection the eyewitness repeated each r step of the encounter. she confirmed that he was killed while complying with all of the officers directives. the officer initially stopped him due to a broken tail light. there was no broken tail light. this prompts the real intent of stopping the car. we believe he was profiled based
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on race. the officer asked him to show his driver's license, vehicle registration before producing the items requested, he informed the police officer he was carrying a firearm lawfully to which he possessed a valid permit. he reached for his wallet to get the requested items. despite his full compliance, the officer fatally shot mr. philado castile.elling at video footage showed him yelling to leave the vehicle for an so n unconscious fighting man layan next to him. the use of deadly force by a police officer in the line ofy duty is only justified when
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necessary in three circumstances. the video demonstrates the police officer in this instance was not attempting to arrest, capture or prevent the escape of mr. philado castile sitting in a stationary vehicle complying with the instructions. there is no evidence to support anyone elsany one else needed pn from the depths or great bodily harm while considering the time he gets shot though law enforcement officer would have used deadly force against him. the pattern of systemic racial profiling which is an important piece of the conversation contrary to the preliminary reports from law enforcement records now show that he was pulled over because he possibly fit the profile of an alleged armed robbery suspect who supposedly had a broad nose.
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this isn't an adequate description under anyythis isn't circumstances and is code for black. it's a pattern of racial is profiling by area law enforcement officers. at the institutthe institute ond poverty report today statewide racial profiling report and despite the findings law-enforcement and enact and the result has been the death of philado castile. i'm going to paraphrase this point for the time to put a human face on this. these are not statistics. they are human beings. my letter to the attorney
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general t i want to tell you he1 was employed for 13 years. he was beloved by his coworkers and family. i was at the funeral and after the funeral there for children at the school where he'd been the cafeteria supervisor for 13 years and the principle, teachers, students, parents told me he knew every child's allergy out of 500, knew every child by name and the parents refer to him as mr. rogers with dreadlocks. people loved him and children te children were crying coming out of the cathedral. a pair anopinion for weeping, fa mother lost a son, a sister lost
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a brother. to find out on the internet that's how we found out. 50 times between 2002 stopped for a traffic violation at least 50 times who gets stopped that many time times in half the cass were thrown out because there was no basis for the stops so i would end this part by saying to you that when asked countyic officials, policymakers and law-enforcement officers have resisted for too long the efforts to cartel to racial profiling and use of excessiveu force. these circumstances have to change and i will tell you the governor when asked said and i
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quote would this have happened if the driver passenger had been white and his response was i don't think so. i don't think so either. my closing plants are we need transparency and accountability. i applaud the position and the sanctions don't go far enough. we have to be clear that there's never been a police officer charged in a pc that is the trend across the nation them in closing i will tell you that i believe ani am thrilled and grateful to robert bennett and you will hear from shortly joined the legal team wi me on the civil case and i believe in my heart of hearts we have an opportunity to make this the th tipping point and this can be a
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landmark decision that drives effective change not only in minnesota but nationally. >> what she brings to light is how the intersection of gun violence and trauma in the terror can involve and it does involve law enforcement in the united states and its sad reporting on it because it does so much that there is an incredible tragedy that we have seen captured. it comes from apple and samsung because the last two to three years those were the piece othef equipment devices that have been used to confirm what they've
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been saying for decades and now it captures it and profound details. i was in europe at the time that philado castile died in is there oadcasts so others saw it and people asked me what's going on in the united states and many people don't necessarily know there are people that are to thd fearful of.d, what will hap people wonder what will happen to tm when they come to the united states. i was deeply moved when diamond reynolds captured on video what happened to her because i have a similar experience with my daughter in the backseat of a car when she was 4-years-old and i was driving to madison wisconsin and was stopped in the middle of the night by a personi
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in an unmarked car and didn't have a police uniform on and when i stopped because a white light s flashed on my car. some might say why would you stop just because someone flushesomeoneflushes a bite on . african-americans in the room said i know why, she didn't want to be shot up saying she was resisting. when the person i came to know as an officer came to my car and i said please identify yourself if you are in officer pleads let me know why i stopped and it was at this time the individual pulled off the flashlight and began beating on my car saying i'm a police officer i was terrified to put that in context only weeks before i'd learned about a shooting and a young
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woman in california whose parents called law-enforcement to help her because her car hado been stuck on the road and yet she was shot more than a dozen times, four times in the head.hh when philado castile died and i knew there was a child in the car i thought about my own experience. we survived that evening but itl think about those who have thise kind of memories in their imagination, their sleep and awake time forever. t we will now move onto the panel discussioon to the paneldiscussb brief presentations first by robert bennett then concluding with doctor george would and we will debate the period for
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question and answer. >> i'm a trial lawyer in minneapolis during trial work for 40 years much of which has been involved in civil rights work in much has dealt with police misconduct. as media coverage of the incident: in past years the public has a better understanding of it. the excuse when asked about it says forces sometimes ugly and brutal and ordinary citizens are unable to understand what it is. i have a contrary view.av we have a short window of time
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and i want to get to some things for you to make your own judgment of particular cases. they've helped people on whether to bring disciplinary actionsth and rarely criminal actions and they have made the ability of medical examers to make proper manner and cause of death calls a. but i'd like to show you theafrm climate. this one is a variety, black mae
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as running over the fence, can't get their. that is to surrender. there is no excuse for force basically he wasn't allowed to surrender and the beating continues for quite a bit of time. without the video we wouldn't have the ability to see this example. some officers don't even want to be on camera and for good reas reason. second involved a mother police tool and it's a canine.
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to speak to the driver dale bales and speed to and you see the dog in the front seat. people find it hard to believe these things exist but if youesi show them the officer wasn't u
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disciplined until he let him loose and attacked his search his and. another involves the police misconduct in the ymca basketball court i and a person that is mentally ill. he didn't like to be touched. he does taste five times and then handcuffed. another officer is seated on the back so one is about a 220-pound
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guy and this one is kneeling break between the shoulder blades after being taste and a rough and tumble fight they got him under control. [inaudible] the medical examiner explained that was a death rattledeath ra. breathing. that isn't a voluntary sound a human being may.
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that means you are buyin buyingd they are talking about what they can charge him with, still kneeling on him and the training is to get them in the position and then seats them up. once the needle on him he can exploit your air but he can't get it back in and of that is tt is causing him to be dead. [inaudible]versations here's the latest conversation with his place afterwards.
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>> i'm not going to be home for. a while. i am not heard. >> they dikill a guy that theydr would not disciplined or charg charged. here the woman as the hostage tried to get down on ground and he is yanking her backup. he then pulls her from the car and makes stabbing motions. four officers shoot 24 bullets
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at him to save her. ithey approach with this other guy. she gets the ninth of april midnight holder which seemse sensible thing to do then tries to turn away from him and get away. if you look these are all that in a second. it is a three and a half inch blade. the gnd jury doesn't find a bill o bill entitlement and he shld be charged criminally. we have that case pending.
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[applause] it is amazing the power of the videoootage in these particular cases. some of that you see now. one of the questions people say police are doing what they should be doing and people shouldn't be committing crimes but one of the things you have to ask yourself the members of congress will have to ask does it deserve a death sentence when someone is selling cigarettes outside of a candy shop does it deserve the death sentence when a little boy is playing with a fake weapon in a park or when someone is running away but then stops and raises his or her h


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