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tv   After Words  CSPAN  November 24, 2016 11:30pm-12:31am EST

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butterfield until the first weeks of the presidency then the scene is described as a shows nixon literally could not talk all he could do was mumble. >> thanks for being with us. that is a great book for political junkies.
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but right at the beginning you said what they'll launch there's usually somebody from the past so with this current presidential campaign season if you have looked back so what do you think is the most relevant or compares closely? been met with those events where it started you just try to figure what is coming next what to keep your eye open for with so much going on and information and thus been so you look and think maybe this will come next. with a bunch of different races but when andrew jackson ran he was an outsider like donald trump they worried about him to be a demagogue not because he was a reality tv show star
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better reality star. there was a great worry that investing all the hopes and dreams and to this one general in to take democracy off the mark. but when donald trump says i alone can do it that plays into the same fear about jackson. the linebacker to 64 or 68 that is very similar and george wallace running as a third-party candidate is on the same platform as donald trump and was considered a joke gaffers to and then to change the race and the conversation in the way that donald trump has so those are three races just in this book i feel we could find a lot because obviously trump
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is completely his own type we have never had although we have had business men been never a marketer running for the presidency. >> there are some parallels in cement some would say sales man nor con man but then would state something about those same candidates. >> i think that's right. the standard now though that we could take a back if we want with jack kennedy although warren harding was the beginning of the new to the advertising which was the beginning of the idea that candidate and they
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wanted to have the name and if you are a voter you would note the he is set to have them come to celebrity at the top. even with some of the most craziest activity on their own. >> remembering george wallace bedsteads a new
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yorker laugh laugh. >> but in both cases the appeal but the stakes are high. >> but wallace was such a regional candidate to say to his audience to say they have looked down s and we will not let them to wait any more. to make that identification. the democrats were not unhappy because let him do his work and tie up richard nixon and that is great but then when he is nervous, was it up on stage with us suburbanites and to listen
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to but because through this similar channels. went democrats the oven and boating than they started to get nervous that is much the same way in days said he would not. >> in talking about how well jackson. but in many ways they are similar. a war hero, they've both fought the military academy. [laughter] the doesn't seem like too much of the surface but before him there were ebs? >> absolutely.
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pdf and dennis similar way that the establishment capitulated so in the end he did not have to fight the final battle but in 1824 that is us challenge of the democratic republican they were pretty much shot so the of caucus representative was the of party and the nominee was who was president. they revolted against the system the way trump defaulted that number to which have what he had to get in for a moment or two he said the system is rigged the people should make the choice but that is the same thing jackson was saying that the people should make the decision not the caucus
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but they nominated william crawford who had a stroke was feeble and blind but that was the last time they had a caucus that this is a game of four insiders and then the people playing so he wins the contest that is closer than all the heather's that he becomes the people's candidate and that is the first time it is a long line of candidates after words. >> so that impact but that was a turning point they
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would call the reagan democrats those blue-collar wash -- warehouse working there was the signature ad when he ran against ford because he was pacing reagan for much of the race until he would win the north and the carolinas and the face-off in texas but the commercial they cut that says i am a lifelong democrat but i will pick ronald reagan this time at the caucus. but that person in the wallace campaign was the head of the campaign is in texas. reagan but the victory in texas don't go on to become
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at the convention. >> to the coal mining area was so important issue point out you are not in chronological order but yet the turning points that you could break through. >> he did in brazil irritated he had to for two reasons because he thought he was doing fine western junior he had good information but he would work them now i want to get my numbers right?
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>> is but we want to imitate so to start work early and hiring pollsters having your own plane other candidates have had these before becky did that with one package. but to it in an the leaders of wisconsin but i will go out to prove myself in the primaries with my connection to be framed in not is proof
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of his violins but the way people vote with their religion and there are those of because so bad but then with the catholic question nobody said. >> his whole effort to build the hints prestige she had to go to west virginia to be sure that there were no catholics. >> don't put it but there was a real bias. by going into and been and
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then add to talk about my religion would is more important he realizes the with the simple speech to the best -- that that was good for him bahia seven he turned out to the henry were then to now. >> but as i was thinking through soviet regain use
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but you build your prestige in the context some people will see u.s. and assemble a paris to amin in bed just by not sitting there with oliver vintages to say i could put together something that is not friendly toward terry -- territory to meet. >> but then by the way he is also black? [laughter] >> but it means more here in iowa than the district of columbia. >> exactly.
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>> i want to get back to the title with. but your bat you talk about the ohios -- i would watch the debate on tv all but richard nixon came to town i can go out there to see him on the back of the train talking to the crowd of 45,000 people. i was watching nixon with that crowd and also the reporters to the press pass around their neck. bill clinton did that. >> obama did one i feel like
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maybe one of the way to the convention? i remember riding on a train during the campaign but the big memory is one of thought was a stasi did during the primary because maybe on the way to inauguration but anyway. [laughter] that was when they were taking on hillary clinton to fabricate the workers then bosnia they put together and impromptu press call to hillary clinton when we were on the train. field was during the primaries but basically now was a huge gimmick that there is no practical reason that i can think of for it
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other than you do get the chance to touch some rural areas and when we write about it and the whistle stop a lot of that was that he goes to these towns to show that he cared and he was so masterful with the research department to say now you were going to pocatello then he would talk about that and now he knows about us. but now seems like he is one of us he is clumsy but hard-working but is okay. going through that rule area is not bad.
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so a midas will be and in the middle of new york city. maybe still getting a little something for that. >> then newspaper declared him to be the loser but you made a larger point but the elites are not very good. >> that is one of the constant stories throughout he is not in this race for himself and then with john quincy adams in the end to be in the neck-and-neck race . they got their wrong 1824 but so far in september a
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pollster basically said nobody who has lost this far ahead he is then emmy will not do any more polling so they didn't. that was a timber and i dunno how far ahead he was bad enough it wasn't so close to not take opinions anymore. then the series of surveys done they all say writing about who would be in the cabinet and those that wrote on monday to be published on wednesday with the election date in between they were so confident they were writing stories about his administration to be printed on wednesday.
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so we all know about the headline but the colonists had to do something to go through a convoluted arguments but then there is that great line this said the only question for the press now is how would ladylike get cooked? >> and we are ready to eat crow whenever you are willing to serve it. [laughter] after that debacle of the 2000 election when the networks called the race to say redoubt just have a gun or face the have the entire omelet. >> but the chicago daily tribune is not alone with the foggy crystal ball. but if it was primitive. >> it was also yes.
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was added to not get into the precinct where truman had gone in there was a lot of wisdom that is not much different from what we do today but one is the era of arrogance but now you can save the electorate will look like this that gives us the most confidence. so this is what surprises us . because be done have been crystal ball. >> something that pops up repeatedly in in your book that is what we do and we cover that and often we are
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surprised ourselves. >> and this is not where we come into our finest but then write about the surprise so the problems that you build the foundation of the campaign based on the surprise of the inaccurate assessment. had nothing to do with the candidates necessarily but think about there is so many of the 1972 mcgovern does better than expected so it is a written he does better than expected then new hampshire and he wins again and then he loses in the end because of the expectations. also he had a staffer who said the she embraced the
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expectations but there is something real about what campaign expects to do. but 84? mondale winds but hard does better so the stories go on and on. talking about 2008 hillary clinton the front-runner with more money and is expected to do well in iowa. apparently she comes in third place howard dean supposed to be the nominee was on front of the both magazines at the time it had howard dean on the cover then he comes in third place and that was a huge loss because of the expectations hillary clinton in rises in new hampshire in 1992 of but
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yet then they elevate them and then has a second place finish watching for the presidency. >> the comeback kid. >> give this kahane funny because if they give themselves their own in nickname you are shunned because you have to earn a nickname to not only have turned this if it's nicely with the second place finish turned into debt for a great victory. >>. >> guest: to have some fun . almost every bette or they don't remember so paul tsongas won the race and was forgotten after that. was truly remarkable. i have not seen such so with
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corrected hillary and blah, blah, blah. i felt that he said jeb bush was low energy. his shoulders seem to get a little bit lower after that. >> and where to land something with that expectation but the ready-made, let's back up what do they do? the introduce people to in need they did not know they had. i don't know if i need to be punched in the face but it is 11 so the fuel the steady
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the electorate they can win based on the same slight of hand that goes into marketing. people used to think it is funny with the political analysis pre-'60s where they would say they make a rational choice with the candidates, and the positions to say how can i maximize my value for the country? they do not math problem and then in the '60s that people project if hearings butted different act of a motion
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and for some people. >> i am recalling with the first television ad budget was so nude some note that he may have changed his mind but we're going through the campaign with a picture but it started, or even harding that goes way back and the
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chicago administration is all chicagos faults. [laughter] with that chicago style of advertising in the presidential campaign and that had not been done yet but is a great beginning of the story how candidates were sold like soap and of course, we should mention about 1840 and well after that any candidate will loan supply sold by soap but then make you want to elevate yourself to help the country . and that is remarkable to me . look at what eisenhower did.
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>> he was smart. no dummy. if you think about the of modern equivalent. maybe there is a fantastic example. literally he is carried with the minnesota primary or the minnesota miracle and they're seldom any misspellings of eisenhower but he won as a result of that popular uprising for him and he had not seen anything like that produce the he had a pretty good idea. >> also with the underground campaign there were not sure if he was the democrat or a republican. >> and then this burnished
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his. >> so i did everything a campaign month to do. that is not a bad way to go so if you can imagine if we were affecting the next presidential campaign that you want to the candidates arrival to be excitement. . .
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>> the complaint was that eisenhower was just a golden vessel at which people could pour their dreams. i told people. >> in your book when people asked what are you, what you believe in are you a republican or democrat and you referred him to the speeches. they were wonderful collections of mush that neither side could be offended by. >> motherhood is good and as dewey said the future is ahead of us. >> absolutely. that is leadership. while it helped to be a war hero didn't it. >> yes. it really helped to be a war hero, and although it's interesting that he becomes commander of nato and that is a huge foreign policy debate at the time so his military expertise which of course he was
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a hero without question, but the nato pieces sticky within the republican party where there is a debate over nato should do this to the communist tribes in europe or asia, so in that sense his military career or there is a mild downside to it. this is part of the story i don't tell her i don't know as well. at the last minute when eisenhower's going to lose at the convention there's an emergency draft and there is a movement that goes on in one of the things i want to spend time in is the presidency and then macarthur efforts to play on that same hero stature, of course course macarthur had a bump your situation. in the republican primary that was fine so that was another parol story going on.
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>> there so many, i would be remiss if i did not ask about yourself, everybody knows anyway here. to decline a professional interviewer, you mentioned your mom in the book and some of the people watched on television and for the folks that don't remember tell us about your mom she was the first woman correspondent for cbs news. there is not very much met any women on the air at the time. she was the first woman on the floor of the convention and there is real excitement and things going on and she was a woman in a man's world and she was on cbs for eight years before she was let on the air. she loved the hill and she has started out working for the
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senate foreign relations committee in her first job was as a booker she knew all the senators and she said please come on our radio programs or tv program, one of the programs was face the nation. she was on the very first broadcasted she helped get joe mccarthy was at the time in the middle of being tried are about to be centered by the senate and she went on face the nation on the first broadcast and said and called the senate inquiry and his behavior so all of them who were unhappy with mccarthy at the time were ever more so. is basically saying that has no legitimacy. so they made news in the first broadcast. she then worked for cbs and then in 1963 went to nbc right before the shooting in dallas when kennedy was killed. she been very close to lyndon johnson when she was on the hill.
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he liked her, and so when she went over to nbc suddenly now there's a new president and she was one of the favorite reporters she covered him a lot to finish with nbc and 73 went on to make documentaries. all of this happened much before i was born, i born, i wrote a book about her life because she left me everything that she had come about 48 of of those long lawyer boxes full of everything including and the reason i write about it in here is a lot of the old books, she was a pennsylvania senator, the stop goldwater movement and also i she would need to that to move into the race. he has a great book about come to the american party and the challenges a proud member of it and it's a great book, but it was one that he
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sign to my back when she was covering and their budget books about senator taft all from the library there's one that stephen shadegg wrote about barry goldwater in which the subhead of the book is freedom is his his flight plan because goldwater was the pilot and that's his long-time campaign manager and the father of congressman john who served in congress. i kept bumping into mom's history when i was writing the book. the. the previous one i wrote years ago so much of it took place before i was either [inaudible] the planet are old enough to really understand what it meant. so i have spent a lot of time with her since she passed away at 97 through the process of writing,. >> this media saturated town and all of that it's an interesting
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challenge itself an interesting to see how a kid responds. the child wants to be like his or her parents or wants to be as far from them as they can, how how about you? i was in both camps. part of the book in my story is that we had a rough relationship between when i was 14 when my parents divorced and i lived with my dad till i was about 24, it was very rough and contributors on both sides, i was no picnic,. >> but license were i was surprising how much i knew? twelve and 14 we are right on the cusp. but they are angels in every respect. >> so that will remain in that
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would be the condition going forward, so part of the book is about us reading it in our relationship when i started to be a reporter, but if you told me at 14 that i was getting going to her business i would've thought you were crazy. so it is a funny kind of fact that not only did i go into the business but now after being in print for 25 years i switched over to being in television. >> what changed your mind? i wanted to tell stories. and i only started figuring it out after she died. when i was actually writing her eulogy which is i love english literature and history because at the center it's about stories and stories that are not just pleasant, but tell us something and illuminate parts of either human character or the american character of the country as a whole. but we pass on stories in the absence of time because they use
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the entertainment value of the story to tell us something about ourselves and the world. so i love writers like joseph conrad who tried to tell a story that got a central truth. so that's what i wanted to do in studying literature writing, but i had to get a job out of college. i was a secretary at secretary at time inc. and it was right before the 92 race i had always love politics growing up in washington, had been a government minor, so i was interested in campaigns and governing. that's when the two stories came together. i got to meet -- was a long-time columnist for life in time magazine who had that same kind of way of covering the way you write. it's about the stuff that we love in the american condition in the story at the heart of
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politics that got me going and becoming a reporter where instead of looking at stories and books you could talk to people. so i started covering all kinds of stuff before i really the first campaign i covered was a 96 i had about four years of covering the baseball strike, wall street, the first 9/11, the attack on the world trade center, a covered health stories, really it was a wonderful training covering basically everything that was thrown at me. >> to think growing up on washington was different then growing up in pasadena or st. louis? or as a kid coming up? >> i think yes, think yes, probably not in a good way, i had an amazing number of advantages both in terms of the places i went to school but also growing up in this world part of
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my job is to deal with people who are in positions of power, that is intimidating they can make universe except when i was a kid that's what i did, he my parents entertained a lot and i used to be the one who open the door at their parties and we greet guests. so when i was 12i met ronald reagan at my house, so that's helpful because television is distorting, washington politics is distorting, so in one sense i grew up in that distortion but in on the other hand i recognize part of it and so through a careful effort in my career to spend time outside of washington and knowing the story is not in washington has been helpful, but
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if you come from the real world and that is probably better, in fact my mom wrote her autobiography in the beginning basically that she came from wisconsin, not in the heartland, she was establishing her credential to talk about politics because she had come from washington but the country, and the book she goes to washington until stories so in the book itself you see that tension between the real world in washington. fortunately i have roots in parts of the country so that helps balance out having grown up here. >> those of us who live in the beltway were quite surprised by the way this collection has come along. but any election surprises us doesn't it. >> the surprise in the selection having spent so much time on the road covering campaigns and covering the movement that is now supporting donald trump, pat buchanan in 1992 and 96, and when i covered him when he flirted with running a 97 on the way to running perhaps in 2000,
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and the tea party movement in 2010. a disappointment among grassroots conservatives is slightly different than what we would called movement conservatives there's a bit of a clash between movement and grassroots conservatives these days as exemplified by truck versus cruise. >> it's an interesting distinction that the grassroots versus movement. >> so these are loose distinctions but if you're in the movement you read the national review, you believe in a certain set of ideological principles that represent conservatives, smaller government, strong national defense, the reagan, the three stools of the social conservatives as well the three stools of the republican party we used to talk about. there is a philosophical underpinning to your and that's the movement you're in, you're in the conservative movement, some tea party adherents and
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donald trump himself is not a movement conservative himself. >> at the national review. >> and he will say as he has, it's not not called the conservative party is called the republican party which means the beliefs are not at its core it's just a name of a team and he is not a conservative, rush limbaugh was in the the other day in response to donald trump's family leave policies and so forth, this is not a conservative and donald trump is a fan, excuse me rush limbaugh is a fan of donald trump so the populace which have identified with the public and parties in conservativism but that more populous part of the that was out there we all know that. >> will we go back to ross perot or for that matter a lot of populous overtime pat buchanan dimension similarities between pattern donald trump and pat --
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now that is being carried forth by trump, but the grassroots folks are the ones i used to call them a flash mob movement that popped up like the tea party. we have to take them seriously now. >> but the thing is in 2010 you had to take them seriously, they're basically what caused barack obama so much trouble and ended up leaving the election of the republican senator in massachusetts which then change the shape of the health care bill, so that to me with something and then we saw an eric cantor's lawson john boehner getting push out of office, we have seen this coming, what surprised me is that they would pick as their champion someone like donald trump, this is where i may have gotten the populace in the
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movement even though as they say is pretty aware of the differences because movement conservatives say the central problem with lawmakers, although this again the problem with these republicans with grassroots conservatives is that they capitulated, they change their minds and gave an under pressure they didn't stay true to their word, so that is the key criteria that you state true to your word and be consistent down that it's not the way donald trump behaves in fact his supporters now make his flexibility on all things everywhere a great attribute so that is the thing to me that some people would say we always knew grassroot people were conservative would say we want smaller government but don't touch our medicare and social security. so there is an inherent intention for the desire of smaller government and an affection to its largest
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program. so i guess that is maybe what we're seeing, but again finally i would say that my view about this supremacy of staying true to your word was probably my over reading of all the conversations i had in the real country where people say if they would just do it they promised they would do, if they would behave in private the way the way we would like them to, if they would behave in public in a way that did not degrade the culture, a lot of things that had been said by voters that i've talked to who say that we want a president he who says things out loud that we can be proud of have kind of gone away. in a way i have may be overvalued what was being said by voters rather than the way in which they ended up voting. there's a difference between what we say and think versus what we feel.
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>> the politics of feelings if you think about it i think it seriously now because i look at donald trump and the reason why is this a sense of empathy i have because i see the excitement in the trump supporter's eyes and i am reminded of the obama campaign in 2008. the excitement eight. the excitement that so many people had back then and i confessed including myself. i was very excited and i could see them that they want to change in a positive direction of what was going on, that's what these folks are saying and these are folks i grew up with in the spotlight with this book, hillbilly by jd vance was also from little middletown, he writes about it's a rust belt, we have gone downhill economically, a lot of these
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people when they say that's make america great again they just want to get that sense of security again. they believe in donald trump so well that he is not vulnerable to all of our -- spoken with the truth. but doesn't matter facts get the way i want my guy in the white house. >> over the last several cycles with increasing passion people talk about i want this country to go back to the way they were that's an economic message and also a cultural message, the pace of change, again it brings me right back to 1997 been with pat buchanan in western pennsylvania and is still time. where they were on hard time, the closing closing down effects automation and all the economic effects have been around for a
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while but this idea that we grew up with a certain set of promises that are being taken away from us and we want this back and we see that bold specifically in places where donald trump is working hard, eastern ohio western pennsylvania where they have been specifically hard-hit with closings and changing the economic landscape but we also see it in a nostalgia for an older time that takes hold among people who are making over 100,000 dollars a year and are basically better fitting in the current economy. so it's both a specific feeling people have about their economic situation and one that's more general that really doesn't have links to people specific pocketbook concerns cousin they're doing okay. >> so many of these themes pop up in your retelling of history, go back to jackson time, the pat buchanan time, one thing we see
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with these uprisings that share common is a sense of populous anger, discontent with with the way things are going, a resentment toward easter and elites, jackson did not like the federal reserve, it was a different name at that time but he shut it down and caused quite a bit of economic have it, but a lot of folks felt it was something they want as they did not trust the big bankers in the east. >> and had good reason to. the economic collapses that had resulted from the decision of east coast bankers had ruined their lives on the frontiers. why are you doing this to me and you people with your fancy theories that are ruining my life, that clearly has to be part of this populism which is at the recession of 2007 - 2009 which is the result of misbehavior by pick your elite,
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weathers the federal reserve are washington lawmakers or the mortgage-backed security. all people whose bad decision-making savage the lives of people who are not a part of the initial decisions that were made. so when i'm reading about jackson and his feeling about the national bank you really feel, feels very modern in terms of the anchor at people who are making economic decisions that are ruining your life. >> the language keeps coming back through different time. what is essay about the american character? >> you? >> you mentioned donald trump and andrew jackson, jackson said through their abuse they should elect me which is basically talking about the writers at the time much the same way that donald trump plays off of and uses the traditional media as a
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foil and says benefits from when the new york times right something negative that helps him with his consist constituency. there's tricking us with the general electorate because there some people who trust with the new york times writes who are in the electorate. so what is it say about, i guess in one sense it's comforting to people who read the book because if these currents have always been there then they will work themselves out as we have seen them work themselves out in the american story, there's moments of crisis in 1824, the corrupt bargain that took place to get john quincy adams elected was with henry clay, it was a crisis moment, people were outraged. >> as it had never happened
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before and more outrage than say when the supreme court decided for george bush and bush versus gore, so the nation in the public survive, they continued and so it gives people a lot of hope who read this and say well the patterns are the same so it's going to be okay regardless of who is elected and for some people that means if donald trump is the president or others who are opposed to hillary clinton can find solace in the idea that the country has been able to work its way out in the past but what it says about the voters is basically the passion is always there and always ruling what's happening. it's not an active reasoning. that is what leads to the unpredictability. we have to analyze the data in a way that seems logical but voters behave in ways that has more to do with their internal
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humors than with what's going on in their brain. >> it's a combination of all of those. you've mentioned people feeling like they have an impact on what the power structures affecting their lives, look at the sense of betrayal and a lot of people's hearts right now with how the elites are being treated. >> and by the way that's a healthy thing. it's not always that the worry of courses that the mob would get too big, two worries at the beginning of the experiment one that we would have a king and that was a great worry, that the people would not have it say, and then the opposite which is the mob would have too much of it say.
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so he tried to bounce back and forth between those two things, it's not always that the emotions of the voters are wrong, sometimes it's a it's a great corrective to the fancy theories of the people who have gotten so attenuated from the business of government and what it should be that they have lost the thread and lost the thing. a lot of people would say that's what reagan did which was reset a federal government that had gotten off its mark. he, through the emotional connection reset things. >> in reagan's voice was interesting when you consider how he was during commercials for he was like as spokesperson for the goldwater campaign. i remember the speech that we played around the country at the time a racism political profile. >> a time for choosing, he said he went to bed and was woken up by a call from the goldwater campaign saying the figure 8,000,000 sticks in my head, i don't know if that's right but they raced a great a great deal of money off of that speech.
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>> 8,000,000 is a lot of money. >> that can actually buy you something, now it would just get you a couple of make america great hats. >> how much is politics people trying to get revenge for the 60s. >> when people talk about it's really interesting when they talk about wanting to get back to something they're not talking about getting back to the 1960s, they're talking about the pre- >> you think america went downhill after elvis pressley of on that sullivan show 156 he said and he said you know things are pretty good back then. >> that's the thing that's interesting, the smithsonian african-american museum of history and culture has just opened and i didn't interview with john lewis and was talking
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to him about the pace of change, particularly those who think the pace of change has been to slow recently and i was standing there with john lewis who is looking at a picture of a young john lewis at the party exhibit as part of the march on washington. >> he was the warm-up to doctor king and you look at the picture and you look at john the standing there in the figure in a museum that he worked 15 years to get into existence and he think there's the pace of change rates there. there's now an african-american president, this museum exists,. >> exists,. >> something else to, at that time john lewis was a radical, there is a lot of concern about what he was going to send the podium. he was angry at jfk at that time and there was fear that he would overshadow doctor king's speech. so they talk to him he went along with the program but in recent years for black and white on both sides he's was the voice of reason.
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>> i was preparing for the interview and also he has that three comic books about his life in the march from selma. >> hands there's many juries in life, and yet another one but that, but was in at over and that he had read as he was beginning to be brought into the movement. it was martin luther king in the montgomery story. the comic book which i looked at , not only is it a great piece of cultural history but being part of the message and there is to love your enemy as part of the nonviolent christian message. the emphasis on the loving your enemy really feels, except for the families who were killed in charleston in the church shooting, mother emmanuel who for gave the that incredibly powerful moment, other than the
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we don't hear as much about that central idea of nonviolence which is loving your enemy. here lewis talk about that even the ones who are hitting and cracking the skull of the nightclub that is really powerful in terms of his history of the world. so many of the people who were beaten or sat upon years ago had received apologies from those who are still living. so much reconciliation around the south i think this is the contrast of america now because there is a time in our politics had hardly ever been more divided than they are now, more hostility between people with different beliefs. they're still there's still that light out there in the darkness. that people like john lewis are carrying on. >> we talk about reconciliation, george wallace before he died went on a reconciliation to her and

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