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tv   His Final Battle  CSPAN  December 5, 2016 7:00am-8:01am EST

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we don't say, we like having an ugly river bottom. we said, we want to have pretty water. how do we get pretty water and we spent 30 years figuring out the answer. we started in 1965, this concept was created by asu, arizona state university, james and architecture students came up with the idea. over 30 years we figured out how to fund it and what it would take to support the maintenance of it so for about a hundred million dollars, we got one billion dollars back plus all the beautiful places to live and
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all the places to work and hundreds of new businesses being generated just from the sake that they want to be. >> you are from tempe originally. >> yeah, it sounds like it happened pretty rapidly. what's your ideal scenario for your city? >> you know, what i think tempe, the city itself, what i think t tempe is want to make the world a better place. that's the goal of any city, we want our residents to be able to do whatever they want to be able to do. if they want to cure disease, great f they want to open up a popsicle shop, that's good too. >> after the presidential election, "the new york times"
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suggested six books to help understand donald trump's win, first is the unwinding in which new yorker staff writer george packer argues that people have suffered at the hands of the political system over the last three decades. national book award finalist, profiles conservative americans and reports on their concerns about liberal policies in strangers in their own land. also on the list is hill billy ideology. "the new york times" recommends that in order to better understand donald trump and election 24016 read thomas francés, listen liberal. he argue it is democratic elite abandoned working class. john contends that both major parties are turning elections into a circus of populist ideas
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and historian nancy provides a history of class in america in white trash. that's a look at the books "the new york times" has suggested to help understand the 2016 presidential election. many of these authors have or will be appearing on book tv, you can watch them on our website, booktv.org. [inaudible conversations] >> good evening, i'm tony clark from the carter presidential library, we are very tblood you are here because is this not only a topic that i find fascinating regardless of how
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many books have been written about him and surprisingly this is the first of three that deal with roosevelt or his administration that we are going to have over the next few weeks, but i think it's also really neat for us to have a pulitzer-prize winning author to talk about it. i think there's probably no better way to introduce a pu pulitzer-prize winning author than with another pulitzer-prize winning author hank klibanoff. >> thank you, tony, i had not known until i arrived that i was going to be the introducer, no
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one, very people around have known joe as long as i have. arguably 67 years. you say how possibly that could be. he's a new yorker and i'm an alabaman. how can that be? well, because our mothers were sisters and we are first cousins . and so i have to say that my career in journalism is due in large part, i am certain to my mother's jealousy of elder sister and her great son was doing journalism across the world for "the new york times" and she thought, you'll never be a doctor, you'll never be a lawyer and maybe you can be a
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journalist and that's what i did. i as a child followed joe as he, you know, went across the world and as he went to south africa for "the new york times" in 1964 from which he was ultimately evicted and later when he went back when he led to his book move your shadow. he had earlier done an introduction and as many of you know, joe later, and i think he was here for this one, the great soul, the book of gandhi and times in south africa. now he has this book, final battle, the last months of
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franklin roosevelt which brought him south quite a few times to do research and i'm really more than honored and pleased to be able to introduce not only a great journalist, former executive editor of "the new york times" but my dear cousin joe lelyveld. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> i'm going to tell the story. he did a story called omaha blues. one time he sat with me and he said, so what's the working title of the book and i said, the race beat and he gave me a weird look, sounds like a book
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about motown. you have a lot of nerve who has publish pped -- omaha blues to criticize my title. [laughter] >> thank you, cousin. i'm not very good at smooth intros but i can make that one up of how nice it is to be in georgia to talk about a book that tells a story that ends in georgia, but sadly in georgia. i also don't really have an answer to the question i'm most often asked about this book on franklin roosevelt's last month. i was a foreign correspondent.
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i wasn't deeply involved in american politics until i became an editor and roosevelt while i knew of his greatness was not somebody i read a lot about. the truth is i can't remember how i got to the book. that's probably a reflection of my stage in life. at some point 4 or 45 years -- 4 or 5 years ago i read something that pointed me to this very different nonconspicueus figure. whatever it was it started poking and led me to the franklin roosevelt presidential library. but wh i found myself wondering
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about and getting fixated on was the most indicate mates thoughts of the mortality. the question you might say in broader terms, the puzzle that kept our longest-serving president going after all those years of stress in the midst of the most destructive war in history. was it a sense of duty or sacrifice or what we now sometimes say, was he in denial, which is fair to say most of us are day in and day out. i was years older than he was at the end of his life. he was just 63 on the day he died. april 12th, 1945.
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71 years ago. i'm old enough to remember as moist of us remember november 22nd, 1963 and most september 11th. this is how they did things in radio days before social media. a voice came out of the box and they say, we interrupt this program, president roosevelt is dead or words to that effect. these were followed by music, then captain midnight didn't return for several days. could be my interest in the subject started there. could be but i really don't think so i was sensing a story
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hadn't been fully told as i did my reading. the time span i covered in my book is quite limited, just 17 months. not quite a year and a half asia finally conceived it from the day franklin roosevelt left the white house in 1941 to meet stalin. obviously the 17 days can't tell his whole story. it's necessary to bend the chronology forward and back to see something of a big picture. for instance, you can't begin to understand roosevelt's determination to engage stalin face to face as he did for the first time at tehran while
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referring back to experiences as a second-tier official in the woodrow wilson administration. he blamed wilson both for diplomatic mistakes and for political mistakes for fail to go get the nations covenant in the treaty of versailles. he had no answer. pragmatic politician didn't deal in proud answers but he had goals. the question how he could succeed where wilson failed was never far from his mind. even before we got into the war, before we got into the war, he
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was worrying about how the united states would carry the burden that it rejected. and that was always on his mind. i think i can personally handle stalin than foreign office and my state department he wrote to churchill early on. properly handled dictator might be victory. actually this might not be a sure thing. it was a proposition to be tested, tehran was to be the first test. the chronology has to be bent somewhat. the story has to be sketched in if we find meaning in his life lucy, it was lucy not eleanor
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was with him. 17 months apart, huge events involves this president, half year after tehran, assault ever and likely when you think about it to remain so, i don't think we see hundreds of troops hitting a beach ever again given the modern weaponry. fdr's postponed announcement, maneuvers to drop vice president from ticket and favor of a little known missouri senator, a hard-fought campaign at a time when no other democrat was given a chance to winning followed by
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the battle which proved to be virtually the last gasp of the third rye. second meeting with stalin and churchill leading to agreement on the formation of the united nations and on soviet intern vengs on -- intervention and a compromise on poland, hardly stooded chance. and here is a highlight to mention. i chosen to be commander in europe. both surprised choices in their day. fdr as time would show, chose
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not only successor but the successor's success or. all of the novels have been written all given rise to controversies that still can't be deemed subtled but roosevelt seem to be receive in many accounts, he was too easily presumed by writers doing their studies long after the fact to have been a dying man losing his grip on affairs and in the midst of all the big events. after all he did die. yet somehow he manage today remain a convincing president, almost to the end. his actual medical condition was never disclosed in his lifetime and his medical records disappeared, were presumably destroyed afterwards. it probably should have occurred to me the other day to ask myself whether he had anything
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to do with that, i don't mean after he died but in preparation . i think the answer may be yes. he took care as he always had to cover his tracks and not just when it came to matters medical. this was the most private of public men, charming, outgoing to the point of being locatiuos making hillary clinton a revelation. [laughter] >> he kept a dairy. he met with the press regularly, normally twice a week. something she is just learning to do. the official count on his press
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conferences was just astounding. during years as president, there 998 of them. it ended with the president reminding the journalists that anything he had said for extra votes in the general united nations had been off the record. he was still in good form. the very few who have later thought to have been intimates got a peek of what he was thinking which a say is understandable since his thinking was never fixed. it was in a constant state of reflux and revision as the political climate changed. the president doesn't think
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eleanor said, he decides. i think of it as almost great chess players who can play three or four boards at one time or some of those hand-held games where you have a little ball going around into many holes. i think roosevelt with politics on his mind and war on his mind, with diplomacy on his mind, with lucy on his mind and eleanor on his mind, all of the things were constant and he was looking for an outcome on any particular one that made sense to him. he knew where he wanted to get but he didn't know -- he frequently didn't know how to get there. he was simultaneously a visionary, an opportunist ready
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to test hypothesis in politics like a scientist in a lab. the first woman to occupy a cabinet office that he -- said he had a four-track mind. he also had a habit of procrastination. he could stand on all sides of an issue when it suited his purpose. visitors with opposing view where they see changed the president's way, he was routinely duplicitious in his
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tactics. british military historian called him by far the most leading figure of world war ii. in the same few days in july of 1994 he led a pair of would-be candidates for vice president, men who had been close to him and hoped to run, become his running mate. i'm speaking of henry wallace and jimmy burns. he simultaneously led these two to believe that each had support for nomination while working all the while on behalf of a third man who we didn't directly spoke.
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wallace called him a water man capable of looking in one direction while dwelling in another. secretiveness could be justified on security. supposedly under -- under supposedly voluntary censorship agreement with reporters covering the white house and the news organizations they represented, the actual whereabouts was a safe secret but also in the united states. he was actually away from the white house more than in it. congress, public at large and cabinet members often had no idea where he was. he made 21 trips in those 13 months on a presidential train that departed late at night from the basement of the bureau of engraving across the mall from
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the white house, in armor-plaited railroad car, which was the heaviest because of all the armor plaiting, the heaviest passenger car on the american -- on the american rails, which now if you happen to be in miami can be visited just outside the zoo at what's called the railway museum. and it's in terrific shape. it gives you a sense of roosevelt's life but his -- how confined he felt in the white house with people coming to visit him all of the time and why he felt a sense of liberation just being out there on his train riding across the could -- country. he couldn't walk in either case
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but he felt freer in the train than his office. in april 1944 he spent a month in what amounted to medical rehab in a plantation in south carolina in the low country around georgetown. all that time, the closest new york times paper, the closest they came to disclosing of whereabouts is to say in a brief dispatch that was played very deep in the paper that he was somewhere in the house. [laughter] >> gave elusive subject a shot. it had been his ambition to produce a biography written from lincoln's point of view using
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information and ideas available to him seeking to explain rather than judge. after exploration, i concluded with reporters' opportunism that there was ample room for such a book on roosevelt. the opening was there in part because some of his most dedicated and biographers and scholars who had followed his career never got to the end of the life. he exhausted them. quay net davis, another roosevelt biographer died after his first three volumes which took his subject, his subject through to 14943. -- 1943.
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meanwhile new information and insights surfaced over the years. the critical notes, navy cardiologist and civilian life on new york specialist howard, eventually published a medical journal 25 years after his patient died. a noted surgeon founder of the clinic now, now major medical center of boston was called in as a consultant on roosevelt's condition and later left the message for prosperity dictated by no coincidence after he declared for a fourth term. the letters said that he wouldn't be able to survive it. much later after a prolonged court battle over the issue of patient confidentiality, with the clinic and roosevelt library lined up on opposing side, the
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doctors' letter finally came into public domain in 2007, less than ten years ago. most helpful to me were the days -- dairies. daisy was a cousin who spent more times along with the president than anyone else including his wife eleanor. daisy survived by nearly half century always insisting that he was frequently asked, she was frequently asked by scholars, always insisting she had saved no notes or correspondence. she died in 1991 in her 100th year. inside was her copious dairy which jeffrey, the author of two books on roosevelt edited into a
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quite-moving volume and revealing volume titled closest companion. read in conjunction with the official white house logs which can now be followed online at the fdr library's website. the dairy supplies the music for the president's last months, a kind of up and down in hopes, worries and calculation find telling highly variable expression. these and similar late discoveries now made it possible to adopt professor donald and book about the period in his life and presidency and the war for roosevelt's point of view to explain his thinking rather than judge him. in simplest terms, to tell a story. in reviewing the choices with
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which he was confronted through his eyes or i should say in attempt to go review his choices through his eyes, it seemed clear to me they didn't really present themselves to him as choices. at the end of 1943 on his return of tehran he appeared to be in radiant good health and everybody commented on how great he looked and the photographs revealed that. ..
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>> he couldn't -- carrying on was a more obvious choice than getting out. in a real sense, i think, he was trapped. he told himself and a few others that he could always resign if
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it got to be too much. a couple of vignettes stick in my mind when i consider roosevelt's valor in these final months. one is a visit he paid to the wards of a naval hospital in the hills above honolulu to which amputees and other severely wounded survivors of the assault on an island called saipan had been delivered. roosevelt had the secret service wheel him through the wards from bed to bed, stopping at each bed, and chatting a bit with the occupant. so the wounded airmen could draw courage from the example of a commander in chief who hadn't been able to take a step unassisted for nearly a quarter of a century. theirs was a kind of communion. the other image also involves his wheelchair.
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the day after he returned from the altar, arriving at the capitol to address congress for what would approve to be the final time, he had himself wheeled down the aisle and transferred to an armchair to which he spoke at the foot of the podium where he'd previously stood in his braces, explaining matter of fact of factually, without a hint of -- factually, without a hint of self-pity, it makes it a lot easier to not to carry around ten pounds of steel on the bottom of my legs. this was the only to acknowledgment of his infirmity. frances perkins called it one more spiritual inner victory for him in his long adjustment. a staunchly anti-roosevelt columnist in the new york daily news named john o'donnell, quite a good writer but quite a
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poisonous writer from fdr's point of view, wrote that even his grimmest political foes, roosevelt's, were stirred by the crippled president's brisk allusion to what had previously been unmentionable. it really likened their honest appreciation of the undoubted personal courage and fighting hard of the man who was about to tell them what he had done in the name of the republic. it blew away some of the fumes of personal bitterness. applause swept the chamber from both sides of the aisle. i'll enter an obvious thought. too obvious, perhaps, but unavoidable, i people, in this dismal -- i feel, in this dismal political season. we don't hear such grace notes in our own era. maybe before next january 20th, mitch mcconnell and the likes of sean hannity will find
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something halfway decent to say about barack obama, but don't bet on it. [laughter] thank you. [applause] >> joe is going to answer questions here for a few minutes. as i said earlier, please wait for the microphone to get to you. who has a question? we'll start here on the front row. >> joe, thanks for an incredible read, an incredible book. wanted to mention and get your thoughts that may not have spread in the book. when fdr was at yalta, could you talk a little bit about his frailty, his health at yalta that maybe you didn't include in the book? >> i did. >> okay. [laughter] >> the trip to yalta was really
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rigorous and difficult. it involved a long sail across the ocean. that wasn't so difficult. that, he enjoyed being on a ship. it then involved a seven-hour flight from the island of malta to the black sea on a rumbling -- the newest airplane in our fleet, but still a rumbling propeller-driven plane that traveled at about one-third the speed of an air force one today. and that was followed immediate ly by a five-hour trip are over roads that had been ravaged during the war when the nazis occupied the crimea up into the mountains.
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he hadn't been in good shape when he set out, he was quite exhausted when he got to yalta, and great efforts were made by his two doctors who accompanied him, the white house physician who was the surgeon general of the navy, an admiral, and dr. bruin, the cardiologist whom i mentioned. and his eldest child, his daughter, anna, to keep him out of unnecessary discussions. he attended all the formal meetings of the heads of government, and he attended all the state dinners. so it was a rigorous eight days at yalta, but when the meetings were not in session, they tried to keep him in a restful mode. for the most part, he did very
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well in terms of being able to engage the subject. he was certainly the decision maker on the american side. there are two views of what happened at yalta. there's the standard political one, one has herd over the years -- has heard over the years more or less from the right, most memorably from george w. bush when he talked about in his evil axis speech where he talked about the disgrace of yalta. but the other is from the scholars who look closely at what happened at yalta, and they felt that he got -- the scholarly consensus, with which i agree, seems to be he got everything he could possibly get from the russians.
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and on the u.n., he did very well on gutting the soviet forces, commitment for them to enter world war ii in the pacific. up until that point, russia had a non-aggression treaty with the japanese. and even on the question of various issues to do with the future of europe. the one very difficult issue, the most difficult issue was the future of poland and where the boundaries of poland should be. stalin had concealedded the russian demand -- conceded the russian demand on that at tehran. roosevelt hadn't gone that far. he wanted to remain silent at least until after the more than election. but -- until after the american election. but as i said, poland was occupied by the red army, and
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nobody advocated sending american forces with the war till on into -- still on into poland to take it to somehow eject them. it was inconceivable. so what roosevelt got at yalta, and there's a sort of biplay between him and stalin where stalin seems to read between the lines what roosevelt is pressing for, was a statement in acceptable language of what the future of poland should be. that it should be integral state, that it should be, its government should be democratically chosen and similar good stuff. roosevelt didn't -- this was all agreed to and signed in the communique.
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roosevelt didn't -- ♪ ♪ that's not me. [laughter] roosevelt didn't, i think, didn't regard the matter as closed. i think he, after all, he wasn't planning to die in a month. he was, i think he thought he'd taken it to a certain point where it could be reopened for further discussion and maybe deals could be made. but, and he wasn't satisfied. during the discussion of poland, he did suffer a sort of medical setback. his heart had a kind of arhythmic beat that it hadn't manifested before, and there was some concern, and he was kept in bed for part of an afternoon and early evening in order to help him get through that, that bad
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patch. but the best witness on yalta, i think, is probably the more than diplomat who was a russia expert and who was roosevelt's interpreter at every session he had with stalin, both in tehran and yalta. and bolin testified that roosevelt was always on top of the game and alert throughout the, throughout the meetings. in fact, most american diplomats who were there felt that it had all gone pretty well. they didn't really read the subtext which grew, the meaning of which got more apparent and darker as the months and years wore on. but i think roosevelt had a clearer grip on what was happening than anybody else. >> other questions.
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>> yes, two-part. do you feel if roosevelt would have lived a little longer, he would have realize harry truman into his thinking more about the postwar, and had he lived a little longer, to what extent do you think his policies might have been different than truman's? >> well, first of all, roosevelt didn't read anybody into his thinking. i tried to describe the elusive sort of non-linear nature of his thinking, and remember that line of eleanor's, he doesn't think, he decides. and it applies here. i don't think -- he knew exactly what he was going to do next with stalin, but he was, he was maneuvering towards a goal, and i don't know what he would have
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been able to say to harry truman at that point because the way his mind works, it was always, it was always turning, considering, recalibrating, reconsidering. it was a constant process. and i suppose he could have, but he didn't -- it's not apparent that he spoke about that matter to anybody in really clear terms. the degree to which he shaped policy on his own is quite amazing by standards of later presidencies. there was no chief of staff at the white house in those days. there was no national security council. there was no national security adviser. there was the president. that's point number one. point number two is the vice vie presidency up to that point if
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anybody happens to have memory -- not memory, nobody here will have a memory, but some idea of a great gershwin musical, alexander throttlebottom, and he was a caricature of what the vice presidency had been in american history. no vice president had ever had an office in the white house the way it has been the case for the last 30 or 40 years. in fact, i think president carter, vice president mondale was the first one to do so. no vice president was ever a regular luncheon companion of the president up until that time. the vice president hung out at the capitol. he prepseudod over the senate. -- presided over the senate. he might be politically useful on occasions, but he was not part of the gnarl security team -- the national security team because in some sense there was no national security team. it was a simpler structure meant
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for a simpler time which had already ceased to be. so it would have -- if the president had decided to read harry truman into it as many people say he should have and, clearly, it would have been a good thing, it would have been a great innovation in american state craft. he didn't do it. the third thing to say about that is they were in washington, roosevelt was inaugurated, left almost immediately for yalta, was away for five weeks, came back, addressed congress, went to hyde park. harry truman and franklin roosevelt were, as president and vice president, were in washington together, at the same time 21 days during the fourth term. so, you know, you could say maybe he would have done it
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later, but there's no sign of that. finally, my last point on this -- i can get wound up on this subject -- [laughter] is what difference would it have made? if roosevelt told harry truman the pros and cons that he was weighing and considering and then died, all he would be handing over was not some blueprint for what to do later, but the problem. finish and harry truman would have to still make the decision. the decision was going to be made by -- the decisions on war and peace and on future relations with the soviet union were going to be made by whoever the president happened to be at the time they needed to be made. and roosevelt, roosevelt had aims but not a blueprint. so i think that's my reaction to the whole issue which is talked about a lot.
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i haven't given a talk on this book without being asked that, that question. but truman himself testified -- i think truman and roosevelt talked only two or three times after the inauguration. and there were always other people in the room. and truman's daughter, margaret, wrote a biography of her father that quoted him as saying they'd never talked about these things. >> thanks for coming to georgia, by the way. appreciate your visit. was there anything on that last trip to warm springs that you found out, any anecdote or little piece of information that surprised you about that last trip? he had developed this warm relationship with the people in warm springs over the years. was there anything different about that -- maybe he was just so much sicker when he came -- >> well, that seems to be the case, that he was so much sicker.
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his chief secret serviceman, a man named mike reilly -- later had ghost written a them our -- had said when he lifted roosevelt out of the car, of course, roosevelt had always to be lifted out of cars, he, usually he, roosevelt would put a hand on the door or the roof of the car to help with the transfer of his body. and he said that on arrival in warm springs for the first time he was just deadweight. he was quite exhausted for the first few days. and then picked up and started traveling around, especially when he had people to entertain and he had three or four women there including lucy at the end. and he said some quite witty things along the way.
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but i -- he was working on his peach for the san francisco conference, and he had just done a speech to be broadcast for the jefferson dinners, democratic function which were to have occurred a the i -- the day after he died. is and so he was certainly engaged. but there was a general sense that he was fading. is and people in his entourage who had very loyally felt he's going to pull through, he's going to make it, were now beginning to wonder whether he would. he was going, he was going on the night of the day he died, he
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was supposed to attend -- it's sort of embarrassing to even think of to it -- a minstrel show at the polio center. of course, everybody -- it would have been a segregated event, although there was one black performer, accordion player who performed there, but who was scheduled to perform there. but i, i don't know that anything surprised me. but when you line the details up, it's very touching. especially vis-a-vis lucy. i don't think i discovered anything new about that except that if you follow the timeline, why is he in warm springs to given with? he only went to warm springs twice during world war ii. all his trips had been to hyde
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park when he was taking a break. and i think he was in warm springs -- lucy's husband, who had died within the previous year, had a, an estate in the horse country around akin, south carolina, which was not right nearby, but a reasonable drive. and roosevelt, i don't know, roosevelt, i think, was there to be accessible to her. that explains why he was in warm springs. you know, i don't know how many of you have been to the little white house in warm springs. it's now a georgia state park, and it's worth visiting. the simplicity of the house is,
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it has columns outside, has a portico, and it looks almost grand. but when you're inside, it's just plain panel, wood, pine wood. and it's very touching. and there's a nice museum there including the unfinished portrait that was being painted of him by lucy's friend. who was along. >> we have time for one more question. one more? right back there. >> do you think that roosevelt was, in a way, a victim of world war ii, that he died in service to this country? >> a lot of people drew that conclusion when he died. at least one newspaper, they
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used to list daily the war dead usually for the community that was being served, you know? the atlanta paper would have the atlanta dead, the new york paper would have the new york dead. but at least one paper listed, headed its list of war dead with franklin delano roosevelt, commander in chief. residence, the white house. and a -- i don't think i can paraphrase it, but i end that chapter with a quote from a surprising source, senator robert taft who was known as mr. republican. he was somebody who had opposed practically everything domestic and foreign that roosevelt had done. his father had been president. he had the ambition of running for president. and of all the statements that
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were issued by public men on roosevelt's last day, i thought his was the most affecting. and if i can borrow your book, i'll read it because, because he was a very partisan source, but -- yeah. the president's death, senator taft said, removed the greatest figure of our time at the very climax of his career and shocked the world to which his words and actions were more important than those of any other man. he dies a hero of the war, for he literally worked himself to death in the service of the american people. it's interesting, of course, this was war, and people were patriotic. but as i sort of snarkily said
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at the end of my talk, it's inconceivable that anybody would rise to that level of perception and expression about the head of an opposing party today. >> well, it's a great opportunity for you to get a copy of the book, "the final battle." >> he's got one. [laughter] >> but even more so, it is a great opportunity for you to get joe to sign it. he'll be signing the books in the lobby. let's thank him one more time. [applause] [inaudible conversations]
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>> here's a look at some authors featured on booktv's "after words." gary younge discussed his investigation of gun violence in america. sebastian mallaby recalled the career of alan greenspan, and george borjas on the impact of immigration on the u.s. economy. in the coming weeks, harvard business school professor eugene soltis will explore the motivations of white collar criminals. jason brennan will discuss the flaws in democratic system. also coming up, johns hopkins professor ellen -- [inaudible] will report on industrial meat production.
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and george mitchell explores the potential for peace between israel and palestine. >> while i was in the region, i met many times separately with prime minister netanyahu and with president abbas, and then i and secretary clinton were the only two persons present when the two of them met on four or occasions in september of 2010. and i argued the following to each. my argument to prime minister netanyahu was that israel is now in a position of unparallel strength politically, economically, militarily. this is a good time to get involved in negotiations and be prepared to make the kinds of concessions that incontraceptive evident my are -- inevitably are required to reach an agreement between two sides so bitterly divided. two president abbas and -- to
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president abbas and before him to chairman arafat be, i made the argument that in 1947 the united nations proposed the partition of the region -- >> right. >> -- to create two states. israel accepted it, the arabs rejected it, and the first of several wars taliban, each of which -- began, each of which was won by israel with increasing military dominance. i don't think this is a reasonable arab leader today who would not welcome the partition which was rejected in 1948 -- >> right. >> but it doesn't exist anymore. and it's not coming back. and you haven't accepted other offers that will be made because you regard them as unfair. >> right. >> but at some -- but the offers aren't going to get better. so you ought to sit down, negotiate and get the best agreement you can which you may not think is fully fair, but to get a state and build on it. >> "after words" airs on
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booktv every saturday at 10 p.m. and sunday at 9 p.m. eastern, and you can watch all previous "after words" programs on our web site, booktv.org. >> you're watching booktv on c-span2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. booktv, television for serious readers. >> here on c-span2, "the communicators" is next with a look at how the legal system handles computer crime and other tech cases. our guest is georgetown university law center professor paul ohm. after that, segments from a recent middle east forum that included israel's defense minister and the foreign minister of egypt. live at 11:45. the group no labels takes a look at what to expect in the first 100 days of a trump administration. >> c-span, where history unfolds daily. in

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