tv Strangers in Their Own Land CSPAN December 20, 2016 3:05am-3:57am EST
we're corrupt, too, except our corruption works in a particular fashion so it's acceptable. you buy your golf club membership so you can pal up to the senator and get your deal, whatever. but you're right. think you need to be able to hold two ideas in your mind at the same time, and you need to be able to recognize corruption and injustice and be cynical and enraged about it and periodically given to despair. that's human. and you need to have a sense of justice and hope and a sense of the long view. and in my response, i was tilting too far towards one side and not the other. so thank you, sir. >> we agree, then. it's a great book. >> we're done, right? thank you so much. [applause]
>> a finalist for the national book award this year, by the way, just announced. congratulations. other books include working parents and the revolution at home, the time bind, when home becomes work and work becomes home, and the managed heart: the commercialization of the intimate life. she's been awarded the ulysses medal from university college-dublin, ireland, wells the guggenheim-mellon fellowship. four of her books have been named notable nonfiction book of the year by "the new york times", and her work appears in 16 languages. she's a sociology professor emerita at uc-berkeley. she lives in california with her husband, adam. welcome, arlie. >> thank you. thank you. thank you very much. [applause] it's great to be here. what i thought we could do is
i'll spend a little bit of time taking you on a journey with me that i've just come home from. and then we can open it up to questions and comments. five years ago i sensed, like so many of us did, a split between left and right that was getting more extreme. each side was hardening. and that we lived in kind of enclaves so that i would talk to my husband and best friend, we'd chatter away, and we'd agree, and then i would open the newspaper and say, oh, my gosh, look. there are two truths here. there's -- i'm not living in the whole world. or i'd look at television and feel the same. and i knew that, actually, other americans were in the same
situation, that we live in media enclaves, in technological enclaves and in geographic enclaves. berkeley, california, teaching sociology, i was in a super enclave. [laughter] so i thought, i want to get out of my enclave, take my political and moral alarm system off and permit myself to get very curious about the lives of people who lived in an enclave as far away and as distant from my own as i could. where would that be? the split between -- >> [inaudible] >> this mic. okay. wrong mic. the split between left and right is not because the left has gotten more left, but because the right has gotten more right, and more people are on the right. so i thought that has mainly,
that change has happened mainly in the south. so, good, i wanted to go to the south. but where in the south? i saw in 2012 that while half of whites voted for obama in california and about a third did in the south as a whole region, 14% did in louisiana. so i thought, great, i want to go to louisiana. and i want, i want to talk to whites. who else? older whites, maybe especially religious older whites in louisiana. so our voyage starts there with a question. i went with this red state paracox in -- paradox in mind.
how is it true that in the united states is most red states are also the poorer states, ones with worse education, with worse health and lower life expectancies. those states receive more funds from the federal government in aid than they give in tax dollars. and yet are the most suspicious and resistant to the idea of a federal government. well, that's really interesting. what goes on with that? and louisiana is a super red state paradox because in 2014 it was the poorest state. 44% of its state budget came from the federal government, and it was very largely, very
largely tea party and trump. so it was perfect. i was will at, at an exaggerated version of the red state paradox. and then i made one more move. i thought, okay, a lot of people who are doing well, have worked hard and have succeeded economically wouldn't themselves want medicaid or food stamps, and i could understand perhaps their opposition to that. but how about the environment? i wake up and look, and it was kind of foggy, you know? and there were certain smells around the place. and sometimes my eyes would sting if i was in west lake. this was a petrochemical center, very proud to say it was the buckle of america's energy belt, more petrochemical companies being lured in with incentive
money in order to use the cheap natural gas produced by fracking. so, but there was something in the air, and people were drinking bottled water. so i thought, wait a minute, let's look at the environment here. it's staring me in the face. i didn't go there with that in mind, but it was unavoidable. i discovered that one of the parishes which is around lake charles in the southwest of louisiana which is a center of this petro to chemical -- petrochemical industry was among the 2% most polluted in the country. and yet there was no discussion of the need to regulate the polluters. and, in fact, people were voting for people who said nothing about pollution. so there i was right almost the key hole of the red state paradox. and i want to tell you, take you on a journey with me to meet
some of the most extraordinary, interesting, complex, lovely, caring people who were at the center of this paradox. meet harold and annette arena. i am seated on a soft living room couch in the home of harold, a gentle cajun pipe fitter, who's carefully holding before me from his adjacent chair a large photo album. he draws his hand back and forth over the plastic covers on the black and white photos. he turns the pages slowly, searching for one. 77 and a former deacon in the lighthouse tabernacle pentacostal church, he's dressed in a plaid shirt and jeans.
he speaks in a slow baritone, his eyes on the page often concluding a line of thought with a light chuckle as if to say, it's all right. he points, there it is. his mother, father, himself and nine siblings standing in two rows, squinting into the sun on the banks of bayou den. it is 1950. hearld names his brothers -- harold names his brothers and sisters. he tells how his mother used to catch gar by coaxing the push fish and lifting them into the boat. but it's not just his family he wants me to see. as if introducing friendly neighbors, he points behind the family to something else. standing proud in the water behind the faces in the photograph are commanding, bald cypress trees, large triangular trunks rising prosecute water,
once the glorious queens of the forested wetland of southern louisiana and still the official state tree. green moss hangs from outstretched lower branches. tree after tree, like lace shawls in a dance hall. throw a cajun in the swamp, harold chuckles -- his eyebrows lifting for emphasis -- and he can make a living. but that was before. before what? that was before the petrochemical industry came and began to pollute public waters and to contaminate the fish and to lead to blinded turtles with white eyes kind of looking out, not seeing bugs they could eat to stay alive and starving.
and before the cows tipped over and before everyone else in harold reno's family got cancer and everybody but he and his own wife died. it was a lot to take in, i thought. wow. i interviewed the man who actually did the polluting. lee sherman. just saw him a few days ago when i went back to louisiana, which was the first thing i did after the book came out to put on a dinner for the people that i wrote about. and they're friends, the guy who did the polluting and the victims of it. because they feel a victim of something bigger. so harold and annette are voting, have voted republican
all their lives, and they're thinking about voting more trump. they're not sure. these days. [laughter] and they didn't like that trump was imitating disabled people. that really, as good religious people, they were appalled at that and the accusations very much took them aback. but they were thinking about it. and, of course, trump wants to abolish the environmental protection agency. so we're still right there in this red state paradox and the key hoel issue of -- key hole issue of it. so let me just outline some things that i discovered that felt to them more important than
the paradox that i, from berkeley, california, came in curious about. something bigger was there for them. and i think it was this. it was really three things. i mean, the south, the federal government is the north, right? okay. i wouldn't give that a lot of weight, but i think it's there. kind of in the background. and i treat that in the book. then they look at the regulators, and it's very interesting because in louisiana the regulators are part of the state government which has been what scholars would say captured by oil. that is, the state government is run by oil men or those who owe
their campaign financing to oil and pretty much do oil's bidding. meanwhile, so that governor jindal gave $1.5 billion in incentive money to these petrochemical and oil companies saying, oh, please come to louisiana. and don't go to texas. so with that $1.5 billion, the companies began to give out donations to the audubon society, you know, let's preserve the birds, and to third grade science classes and uniforms for louisiana state football team. so people loved the companies. they thought the job -- they got the jobs, but not many jobs. only 16% of jobs in louisiana have to do at all with the oil companies. these are highly automated plants, and the people they
bring in are are often from out of state. so -- to run the petrochemical company, you would want an mit chemist and then filipino pipe fitters are brought in. so there are jobs but not many. but people looking at the companies say, well, some jobs at least and a lot of goody bags. but they look at the state, and they see a state that isn't actually protecting them, where people have been hired to present the illusion of protection without providing the reality of it. in essence, you might say the state has been given the moral dirty work to do to seem to protect but not really protect people. and so people were mad at the state. didn't do its job, why should i
pay taxes to this do-nothing state especially since i haven't had a raise in two decades. ask jobs are a little -- and jobs are a little more shaky than they were. so that's a second reason. first, it's government as an instrument of the north, then government as an instrument of oil. and then they don't put it together quite the way i just have. but there's a third thing. i came to this whole project with an interesting emotion and feelings. and i think we get to the feelings underneath politics, both right-wing politics and left-wing liberal politics by looking at what i call a deep story. what's a deep story? it's a story that feels true.
you take out moral judgments, you take out facts, and you have a story that is how it feels. what is the renos' deep story or that of the other 40 people over five years i came to really know well, 60 interviews in all. the deep story is this, imagine that you're in a line as in a pilgrimage going to the top of a hill where there is the american dream. you have worked very hard for this american dream. you've been patient, and you're a good person. you don't begrudge anybody, but your line isn't moving toward that dream. and then you see some people seeming to cut ahead of you. you say, what's that about? well, who are they, these line-cutters? well, those would be blacks on affirmative action who now have access to jobs formerly reserved
for whites, those would be women who are, have access to jobs formerly reserved for men, that would be immigrants, it would be refugees, even public sector workers like some of these people working in environmental protection, in the state agency. what are they doing? why are they there? so then in the deep story you see someone, barack hussein obama, who seems to be -- whose job it is to be impartial and supervise the line for everyone. but you see him waving to the line-cutters. he's their president. he's doing for them, and he's leaving me out. in fact, i'm kind of like a minority group although i don't talk about minorities. i'm sort of back there,
especially as a white man. and, in fact, isn't obama one of those line-cutters himself? i heard time and again how did he get to harvard? his mother was a single mom. they didn't have two cents to put together, and how did he get to columbia? something's rigged. something's rigged. so he's one of them, and he's not representing me. so another thing in this -- and somebody turns around who's ahead of the line and looks back and says, oh, you're just a southerner, you're ill-educated, you're ignorant, and you're a redneck. and then you just feel whipped, you feel insulted, you feel marginalized, you feel what i came to call kind of an honor squeeze. all the sources of honor to which you turn are locked down.
first, you want honor for working as hard as you have and having some economic recompense. but, you know, the machine has ground to a halt. so you can't do that. well, but you're a very good, you're a true believer. you're a highly religious person as the renos are. but you're living in an increasingly secular society that thinks what you believe is wrong. and your family living, and you have your values about a good family, a true woman. and now the law of the land is saying your beliefs are wrong, and you're seen as backward. so -- and then demographically you feel there are fewer people like us. and they came to feel almost like a native american tribe that was, in fact, a stranger in its own land. and when you add the fact the
renos feel that the ground is not their ground, the bay you is not -- bayou is not their bayou, the fish are not their fish, the trees are not -- they were in mourning for those trees. they loved those large cypress trees, and they were gone. they were stumps in the bayou. so they felt like strangers in their own land. and we can see the anger, but i don't think we can see the mourning that a lot of people are feeling. so in the end, the state was an instrument for the north, it was an instrument of oil, and it was an instrument of the line-cutters, they felt in their deep story. making them strangers in their own land. so i'm going to just end with
these thoughts. i began with one paradox, but i ended up with another. the paradox i ended up with was how could the democratic party call itself, you know, the party of the working people and have working people leaving it in droves? like, that's the paradox for people who have a different, a deep story and are on the liberal left. a very important paradox. because i, because of this: my husband adam and i were recently in hungary. we were giving talks in budapest where a very right-wing leader,
erdogan, has taken over. and as you know, there's been a loss of the free press, a consolidation of power and all the statues have been changed -- statues have been changed in budapest. there used to be many different ethnicities, and now they're all heroic hungarian figures and, actually, the history of the hungarian role in the persecution of the jews in world war ii has been erased. if you look at all the statues, there is no sign of that anymore. recently these have been changed. so i asked an observer, gee, what happened? because hungary was just dying to get itself out of the claws of the soviet union and was thrilled and relieved to finally be part of european union, and
it loved democracy and the free press, and how could this happen? and the man's answer was this: nobody thought it could happen. and the left was turned in on itself. divided and did not vote. let me just end there. [applause] >> thank you, arlie. we want to open up the room for questions now. we do have at least 30 minutes for some questions, and we do have a microphone right over here so, because we are on tv, if you could come up to the microphone if you have a question, and we'll address those.
>> so, first, i wanted to thank you for bringing some empathy to this election cycle. i've been so disheartened being sensitive to all the tone of derision that has really permeated especially among the left. how could these people think this way, and there's so much otherring which is just furthering the problem in the first place. >> right. >> but i think there's a lot of misperception of this election as the end game, and it's not, you know, it's just an event. so how do we think beyond the election? because if trump gets elected, the left is going to feel hurt and alienated. if hillary gets elected, it just continues this strangers in their own land pa paradox. paradox. how do we continue the empathy after the electionsome. >> wonderful question. absolutely goes to the core of what i've tried to do with this book. let me just tell you a story about what i came to call the
empathy wall that we all need to scale, about actually how wonderful it is to climb it. it's not a chore, it's not hard. it's soul-enlarging. [laughter] and i'm at -- i met an incredible gospel singer at the republican women of southwest louisiana meeting. it was very well organized and huge attendance, and i was at this luncheon table, and across the way was this wonderful gospel singer and her husband was the minister of a very large pentacostal church. and she said i love rush limbaugh. you know, the conservative radio commentator. and i thought, i'd really like to talk to her. [laughter] i have something to learn. and so we did. the next day we met for sweet teas, and we talked, and i said
what was it that -- what's the appeal of rush limbaugh? well, he hates these femi-nazis. a little moment there. and what is a femi-nazi? well, you know, cold, tough, hard sort of self-centered person destroying families. okay. and she went on to environmental whackos and all these. and then she asked me, is it hard for you to hear what i am saying? and a bill went off. i thought -- a bell went off. i thought, actually no, it's not hard. i'm not here to have a debate. i'm here to learn, you know? i've spent my life teaching students, but now the fun part is learning.
she said i do that too. that's not hard for me either. and then we had that in common. and then she explained that, actually, she caw rush limbaugh 's defending her against this hail of epithets that came, she thought, from liberal land, you know, that she was seen as fact and homophobic and sexist and racist, and she saw him as defending her from that. well, i learned a ton over those sweet teas. so i guess what i'm doing is making an invitation for us to continue this voyage over the empathy wall. later she said, you're my first democratic friend. [laughter] i thought, good, good. we're getting somewhere. [laughter] and, you know, you don't agree on a lot of things but, hey, you've established a floor of respect and liking on which a
lot more can be set, ambivalences can be admitted, complexities arise. you know, you're real people on both sides. and it's fantastic. so i just think that after this election whoever wins that people, especially liberals i think need to actually reach out, not be turned inward. or there's something called living room conversations that have been started where left and right get together, they break food, break bread together, and i just love to see those living room conversations all over the country. thanks for the question. >> thank you. yeah, i would just add i'm a nurse, and i would say that it's just incredible what happens when people feel heard. >> yes. yeah. >> hi, arlie.
my name is stacy harris. i'm originally from min grab lit, just to give you -- minneapolis, just to give you some background. i tell people that i'm from southern minnesota to make them feel more comfortable -- [laughter] to otherwise i would get a lot of the yankee, go home. one thing i've noticed today is that this topic intrigued me as well as your other books, and the fact that this audience is overwhelmingly white. but i will point out that tennessee is the home of albert gore, senior and junior, particularly with regard to the environment. but my question is this, because we're talking about paradoxes and so forth. one of the things that i noticed, i'm one of the people that's in this bind of voting for the lesser of two evils, and i was looking at the third parties, and i discovered that the tennessee ballot has either six or seven choices on it. of those three or four, i don't even -- i can't really even get any information. i may have to google further. but one of the choices intrigued me, and that was the constitution party.
because not being an evangelical, i don't profess to know how evangelicals think other than in terms of how i react to their thinking. [laughter] but what i can't understand is -- and this is nothing new -- the people that are evangelicals that are voting for trump in spite of all the reasons that they don't want to vote for him, why they are not flocking to the constitution party. now, in tennessee the constitution party is not on the ballot. it will be a write-in vote, and the write-in votes don't count. and i've been a crusader for years about having your write-in vote count. it used to be listed in the newspaper, because i think that says something, and this year in particular i think it's going to say something. so that is the end of my comments. i'm interested in your answers, thank you. >> yeah. of the people that i came to know, i don't know anyone that is voting for a third party
candidate at all, including the constitution party. they thought about it, but they're not thinking of doing it. it's interesting, a lot of the tea party people i talk to actually have a friendly feeling toward bernie sanders. they say, oh, uncle bernie, you know? pie in the sky. he's not real realistic, you kni don't think he's got his platform down but, you know, there was a friendly feeling. and not toward hillary, but toward bernie. so that told me a lot. actually out fishing, had a couple of beers, and i was out fishing with a guy, super trump, super tea party and dealing with the contradiction -- which there is -- between those two.
tea party wants a really slimmed-down government, you know, and trump would seen is wanting a whole sort of -- how do you get rid of every undocumented worker? you're going to need a surveillance state that'll cost an arm and a leg. so i think that's their paradox to deal with. but anyway, this guy was dealing with that. at one point he said he put his line out and he said, you know, let's get rid of money out of politics on both sides. it's just polarizing us. i thought, wow. we have a real crossover issue there. you know, your good friends that you think of as enemies would completely agree with that. and he said, you know, these politicians, they're trying to pit us against each other. so this is what the heart of, quote, the opposition from the
left point of view are saying very reasonable and interesting things. so whether they vote for -- whoever they vote for, i see a lot of crossover issues that we could begin with. >> thank you for your work. this question, i think, dovetails neatly from what you were just saying. i spent about two-thirds of my relatively young life so far in the rural south. i've lived here for about nine years. you didn't mention a lot of the following in your discussion, but i have a theory having spent a lot of time in the rural south that social issues, controversial social issues -- like abortion, same-sex marriage -- tend to be the threshold, tend to tip things politically in the south toward the right. not so much the economics, not
so much the government being the north. and i'd like to hear your thoughts on that particular issue. >> yeah. i think that's right. that kind of corresponds with my impression. i -- going back to this honor squeeze, i kind of felt that many of these social issues about same-sex marriage or a right to abortion are -- if those things, if the whole society changes its view on those things and a quite fundamental part of their selves is challenged, is dwarfed, is dishonored, and i think it is very important. and in a way, these issues have gained federal currency,
national currency without the kinds of conversations that, in fact, cross the empathy wall. you know? i don't know as those conversations have really happened on those issues. one man told me, you know, the south is changing too, but we want to change at our own pace. and they felt that things were being shoved down their throat. well, that's an interesting comment that i think speaks to, to your point. yeah. >> there's been some interesting talk recently about the effects of people's own, i guess, geo-spatial experiences on their political views. so, for instance, the atlantic recently reported that trump has a 26% lead on people who still live in their hometowns. there's been other research showing that, you know, the south is in some way, southerners stray the least far from home.
i think they said the median southerner lives nine miles from his or her mother. [laughter] as applied to the people that you spoke with, you know, how many of them are still live anything their hometowns? and of those who are still living in the regional area, how many of them have traveled? what kinds of firsthand knowledge do the people in your book have about the world outside their particular parish in louisiana? >> that's great, that's great. yeah. what we do have is this contrast between locals and cosmopolitans, you could say, to put labels on it. but the people i came to know probably did live nine miles from their mother, and there's a good reason. they love where they are. they're committed to their communities and don't want, you know, government messing with that community.
so when they travel, they travel elsewhere in the south or, you know, maybe all of us when we travel don't actually travel, you know? [laughter] that we, you know, you get on a plane if you're in berkeley, california, or new york or los angeles and what do you do? you go to london or paris, you go to another city in an urban area or from one coast to another. and then what are you really learning? the people i came to know were extremely knowledgeable about things locally. one man i went fishing with could describe the face of ten kinds of fish, you know? [laughter] you know, teeth, i mean, i never thought about it before, you know? or the sound of a frog, you know? these were, these were part of the population. and he knew them well.
and i once tried out on thinking about empathy and how empathy works, and i said to one woman -- she was an accountant -- well, do you think that actually left and right are equally everyone pathetic -- empathetic people but we have different empathy maps and that actually, you know, liberal democrats are more likely to empathize with people they don't know? that could be, you know, the syrian refugees or whatever and whereas people on the right are more likely to empathize, be willing to sacrifice for people they do know. for example, the cajun navy that just rescued people from the floods around baton rouge would be an example of an enormous amount of help and sacrifice to
those locals. so i said this to this person. she said, well, no. we're -- she was tea party. she said, no, our church has a foreign mission in africa, and here are the pictures of little children in africa, and you can see them on the corkboard in the hall of the church. and i said, yes, but isn't that partly that these mission, this mission has as its goal to teach about pentacostalism? you know, she said, you've got me there. [laughter] they were wonderful people with a great sense of humor, and you can tell just by her comment the space that opened out when both sides feel freer. >> i come from a proud history of southern rednecks who -- [laughter]
i pursued my own education would remind me not to give above my raisings. i heard a conversation on public radio, i think chris tippett who does a ram about spirituality interviewing ruby sales who is a black activist who began her work during the birmingham years when she was a teenager. she said something that was most interesting. she says that -- first of all, she wants to go to appalachia and begin a movement among the whites. she has learned, she said, to ask a different question. not a policy question, not a political question, not a welfare question, but she asks, where does it hurt? >> oh, good. >> how does it affect you? >> yeah. >> where does it wound you? >> yeah. >> and she says that's the start of a different conversation. >> yeah. >> i think she's right. and be she thinks that going to appalachia in the south, a black woman beginning a movement to
simply sit down and say where does it hurt is a way to start a new conversation. i'd like your response or thought about that. >> my response is bravo. [laughter] i think she's fabulous, and i think that is, in fact, where exactly you could say where my book points, that it points to ruby sales. >> thank you for a wonderful talk. my question is, how do you bring in the facts to counter these deep stories? because at the end of the day, i think some of these deep stories are actually hurting them. how do you, as an educator, see how we can overcome this and say these are the plain facts on which you can draw your opinions, leaving politics out of it? >> yeah. wonderful. wonderful question. yeah. deep stories can hurt both those
that the deep story is about, of course, and the very people who hold these deep stories. and in a way, that's kind of what my book is trying to do. i feel it's kind of a gift. like, here's how it looks to me -- i could be wrong, but i think you're hurting from your own positions. although i understand your suspicion about state government. i mean, i -- that's what i learned, that captive states are, create a lot of this hurt and account for some of the misdirection, from my point of view, of blame. but, yeah, i think we're -- these last two comments are pointing to what hurts, but you're saying, so now what? how -- what are the policy implications of that? well, i think we could begin a
movement now and a ruby sales kind of movement that, in fact, moved gradually from the deep story and the hurt to what to be done, what could be done about it. this an open atmosphere. -- in an open atmosphere. a lot of public square, open forums that set this tone. because we think of politics apart from tone, but tone is everything. tone is a lot. and if we get the right tone, then i think we can have the right kind of crossover conversations about removing some of the causes of pain in the case of these louisianans, getting some genuine regulation of polluting industries.
and in the case of many other issues. as you know, there's now a left-right kind of agreement that we need to reduce prison populations. that these were nonviolent crimes, people get locked up. the prisons are now privatized and it becomes in the interest of the prison guards to kind of keep people in because they get -- it's profitable to do so, and there's a whole logic that takes people, especially black men, away from their families. so if you're family-oriented in your politics and moral beliefs, that seems like a good thing. prisons are expensive. state's paying for it in the end so, hey, what are we doing here? left and right can agree. and i think there are a number of issues when you get down to the details that people could agree on. thank you. >> i'm from north carolina.
you've heard an awful lot about what we used to consider one of the most progressive states in the union of late. i am also an evangelical, a retired military person and a retired minister. and i felt compelled when the lady said she didn't know anything about evangelicals to tell her that every time i hear that word on television the last year, i cringe. >> wow. >> our job as ministers of the gospel of jesus christ was not to present ourselves and to build ourselves up, but to take a message. and that is what a true evangelical tries to do, is not present himself, but to present christ and the claims of christ
on lives and to do it in whosoever will, let him come. >> right. >> and i just feel, i felt compelled to say that, because that is the message of christ. whosoever will, let him come unto me. and that's a true evangelical. and the people that stand up and and condone, in my opinion, saying my of the things which are -- any of the things which are offensive to anybody on either side is misrepresenting jesus christ. and when i saw some of the college presidents and pastors and all this stuff talk about their endorsement can -- >> right. >> -- i said, my friend, to
myself, you're not presenting christ as a whosoever will message. >> yeah. >> so there are a few of us still in north carolina that are trying -- [laughter] and we'll continue to try. >> yeah. yeah. >> and i just felt as a tarheel and a evangelical and a retired minister and retired military person to say that. >> well, wonderful. >> god bless you. vote. >> thank you. >> vote. vote. [applause] i didn't tell you how to vote. could i tell one story? >> sure. [laughter] i feel right at home. >> a short story. >> my -- i was a 30-year-old man, and i was called to a church in a textile mill village town. and it was close to the election.
and i said to the people -- and this was a day when the ministers didn't get up there and tell their people how to vote. they told them to vote. and i said if you'll come next sunday, i am going to tell you how to vote. the largest congregation that i had the whole time i was pastor of the church, for 12 years, came, and they were standing and packed and standing around the wall, because nobody was telling -- a minister was not telling them how to vote. and i said, i came out -- didn't step in the pulpit, stepped out in front of the congregation, and i said, first of all, if you don't have a car, get a person to take you to the poll. >> right. >> and secondly, you stand in your line, and i just described it -- [laughter] that's how you vote. [laughter] [applause]