tv After Words with Chris Hayes CSPAN May 27, 2017 10:00pm-11:01pm EDT
implications, constantly being grounded and returned to our conceptions of like freedom. and so leads to ways our democracy has gone bad through outsourcing it to lead and this book is about waying our democracy has gone bad by essentially putting subsection of our -- population under conditions that are not really free in the sort fundamental way that we want to be free is they relate in that way in materials of the specifics of this look, i mean, i grew u up in the bronx like my core identity -- [laughter] in the bronx in the 1980s. which was which i would never trade for a million years in terms of what it meant to me in terms of the way that i think about race, politic, but it was really fought and city was dangerous and i thought about crime and politicianing and criminal justice through my life and different ways and what i encountered on doing reporting
of ferguson and baltimore was beginning to see the sort of conception able to see the system that we built from the different kind of angles like what i experience growing up in new york, appeal of giuliani and this certain kind of rhetoric what it has brought for community of color and it teat like it was useful to maybe have that. >> seem like ferguson is really kind of an anchor in many ways in the books so i'm wondering how your experience reporting there kind of aluminated what you're talking about growing up in the bronx in the 80s. >> yeah, the thing about ferguson that blew my mind if you grow up in a city and grow up in the brongs you have a conception of cities as distinct so in cities you have -- bad neighborhood and good neighborhoods. all kinds of like loaded ways in which police police communities differently all ways in which borders of neighborhoods sit atop each other and overlap and create this sandpaper friction.
all of that to me was tied very deeply to either the bronx, to new york or cities because then i moved to chicago and i was in chicago and lived in d.c. and all of the things pertain. thing that blew my mind about ferguson is it is a municipality of 20,000 people so totally anywhere usa it's between the northern edge of st. louis and like the tony suburbs you drive through it. it look like anywhere -- it's just strip malls and parking lots and houses and -- and the idea that what i experienced there was like the level of exploitation and the level of racial oppression and friction. the level of the evasiveness of policing. the intensity of the humiliation all of that just in its place were here to fore anonymous. something about that blew my mind it wasn't that oh, i didn't realize people felt that way about police. oh i had experienced that in new york and reported it be but that
experience in this place that national media had no idea existed that made me also think a, how many other fergusons are there? how many other places you know we have this amazing d.o.j. report, about and we have it because in michael brown shot an killed in the wake of the protesting and protest that d.o.j. came in and they undertook a xrens arive investigation that department and they look at e-mails all of this stuff. but they just shined a flashlight at one place and moved at random in certain ways with if they took the flashlight and went to some other place in, you know, milwaukee county would they find the same thing? i think they probably would. >> one of the things in the book you say ferguson was kind of hissen in plain sight can you give a specific example of something that really kind of moved you while you were reporting there or o like angered you or that -- would you be like i need to write this book to explain what's going on and make this not hidden anymore? >> i had this experience where i went down there and i would just
be talking to people all day. what i found was that i could do this on air and on air and live tv program take my microphone and two african-american resident of ferguson and say, tell me about your transition to coen story after story and you can tell when people are -- like telling the truth about traumatic things when they're like this was just people just telling me stories that -- were shocking, i mean, the state senator who tells a story about like -- it in high school a fire truck was at i forget if it was a street fair you know sometimes fire trucks are around and a fire then invited her to sit in the fire truck like iconic part of being a kid and a police officer pulling a gun on her. she a state is senator and it was just -- someone else like you know who is like this class of valedictorian and a youth member talking about his 60 something yowrld mother like pulled over and thrown against the back of a car. and then other people who --
you know who has experience a semiin which they have longer criminal records. they have been engaged in drug trade talking about harassment and cops using the n word, et cetera, et cetera i can just it was boom, boom, boom, boom microphone talk to people -- people story after story after story after story -- and one of the things that is so important about that department of justice document in certain ways is that it -- you know, it is a third party, you know, confirmation it is a third party confirmation of the truth of what all of a those people were saying not that that's needed but in a official sense it is like these are official agents of the government investigating claims and saying this isn't some sort of masked illusion they aren't crazy. i mean i joke about this, you know at one point i joke about this in book events sometimes. i've done it in --
you know i feel like i have a unique position writing about these issues because you know, i don't experience a law in the way people of color do. certainly not experience in the way of people color and neighborhood concentrated violence and i'm a reporter in some ways reporting is always this weird. alms reporting outside of your experience but this is a particularly loaded one. but part of the thing i feel like part of the project of the book is just to be like -- this is not made up. [laughter] , i mean, that's a ridiculous thing to say why should it be the case that people need to be vouched for that way but pugh data like this we are seeing changes in public opinion among white americans about reality and truth of this stuff. it is actually working whether it's the coverage of it. it's the videos, it's the protest, activism. public opinion is moving on this stuff. and i do think if you are complete if you live your life completely shielded from this experience it seems insane.
it really does. like if you don't have a first person experience of it, you're kind of just like really? do they really are do that like a cop pull a gun on a fire truck? why do that? >> exactly that's why i think the book is so important and critical right now because i do think that you're reaching a whole -- the new set of audiences. with the book -- so let's -- what you describe is residents in ferguson that you interacted with every single of one of them having some kind of story to tell about their negative experience and criminal justice system what speaks to frame of your book ferguson is essentially a colony i thought that -- setting up as a economy nation drawing from black radical anticolonial activist is and richard nixon so he said black america that nixon himself that black americans don't want to be a calling in a nation so can you kind of lay out what that, what that analytical framework is.
>> so it is pass nailing because i think it speaks to the intensity to the time in which that black nationalist view of internal -- colon anyization so prevalent to find its way this this sort of way into the mouth of richard nixon. you know, this is an idea in some ways it goes -- there's seeds of it. it's carried through -- i mean, partly it is sort of the garvey framework actually particularly in 1960s moment of the sort of like -- third world solidarity which was like the term people used then which we don't use now is global help but you have these movements of independence and national disism against colonial oppression in which people of color have been by white folks working to get self-determination and activists here and that kind of work happening all over particularly
the the african continent. and -- that is all kind of in the air when that comes out of nixon's mouth and malcolm x call oakland in one colonized panther and black power and black nationals comes out of the book by call thing tere i think in '67 so ideas developed and all of this really interesting scholarly debate about whether that framework works. right, that the -- the colonial colonial framework is exploitation opposed to oppression where it is exploited in the way that they slaves were exploited in way that say mine workers of belief why o exploited to say they're not a surplus population but needed to produce the surplus value and there's a question with about whether african-americans and say mid-century 1960s america is there. a surplus o oppress or being used and exploited in a fashion
and that's leak a -- deep -- it academic debate. part of the project here is to talk that notion a little bit out of the kind of mark context and put it closer to home like our own colonial experience. right, so to me colony here means -- suggested experience as sate external. that the experience of the state in particularly the most powerful violent parts of the state which is the policing function, right. the experience of that is external authority. and the connection between that experience of the -- of the function of the state is external authority to the experience of our own colonial forefathers who experience the crown and external authority and literally funnel up revolution about that in many ways. >> can you talk -- what was so interesting about
the book is way you tie in our colonial past to make this argument. can you some of the earlier struggles to what we're speciousing today because that really comes through beautifully in the book. >> i think we think of evolution as being about taxation and no representation so that is true tackization is point of conflict but taxes at the time are not collected through automatic payroll deduction and like filing with the irs. they are almost entirely collected as custom duties and enforcement of the custom duty is done by dust myization in the most literal sense they are cops they go around. i don't know it if they have badges or not but they are cops and they apprehend people. they bring criminal trials against them in courts. they take goods that are smuggled so what you have at the time of the crown is you have this incredible black market that is actually kind of gray market it is really interesting it is one of the things where
it's like -- a huge amount of goods are moving in and out of the colonies being smuggled outside the reach of the customs laws. ands there's this kind of look at other way because everybody understands the life blood of the colony and smuggling is so central even john hancock a smuggler are engaged in this. smuggling is like the life -- one product that colonies produce better than anywhere p anyone else is rum and that rum -- is coming from a sugar cane that is coming from are colonies that are outside british reach are all smuggled in. you've got distilleries making all of this money. so the crown decides to crack down and inaugurate what i call the first stop and san frisk era they decide we can't look the other way because we need that revenue we want to crack down and get those taxes when they crack down it means searches of everyone.
all of the time. you have these -- you know, this sort of official documents that allow these very widespread searches and people freak out like there's an official freakout in the court and benjamin franklin writing it ab and john adams and someone gets apprehended and grab cuss stop and bloody in the middle of the street or torn and feather through streets of newport on boston and smuggle back they'll peel back from portugal that is confiscated by custom agent and jury nullification and can't get any conviction because no jury will convict custom officials bringing case after disafter disand they're winning like 10% of them right because this norm of the community is like this is okay with us. and so -- the key insight here to me and i didn't, i have to give a shoutout to peter great
book smuggler nation which has a great work on this. the key is understanding how much lawn mower and smuggling was the point of this. it was the point of friction that was the thing and there's this john adams quote where he says when he goes to this famous trial where a lawyer is essentially defending the smugglers against unwarranted search and' sure then and there the spirit 6 revolution born everyone who watched this away saying this is our great cause and in the declaration of independence thomas jefferson writes in his bill of complaints about the crown. that the crown has sense swarmed, crown swarm of officers to harass our people and eat out their substance. which is just him saying, at f e police almost literally swarm of officers, swarms of officers talk to people in ferguson go talk to people in new york city in that i that i neighborhoods d
swarm of officers to harass our people and eat out their substance. >> as you call it you said in the book the parallel of ferguson so clear that lis operated i think as armed tax collectors can you talk about the ways and fines and fees and extraction are working in ferguson just to emphasize during that period. >> ferguson is neatest parallel are because back to this question about exploitation for suppression that is fund mentally plpped is extractive and documents that are produced by the various authorities and ferguson for the d.o.j. review e-mail between the sheriff and police and talk about policing function as a revenue function. thfnlg came out in the d.o.j. report. >> we need to get your new enforcement zone up to prime the revenue pipeline meaning you need to go out to write more traffic tickets to get that traffic ticket revenue to make our budget. and this is a -- zero some gain.
they are instead of doing things like raising property tax right they are jacking up traffic are violation to pay for -- municipality costs that will save them the political pain and the wallet pain of -- raising taxes for other means, so you have, you know, the -- report is very clear and the statements of the authorities themselves in their e-mail they talk about it openly is that -- fundamentally the departments goal is to produce revenue from the municipality in particular through traffic are enforcement not just traffic enforcement they have this insane system where it is almost like a payday lend sore you get a 100 ticket you get a court date summons but the court is only ohm six hours a week. and it always has more people showing up to court that can actually be processed so you stand online and you don't get in and then you get a citation -- for being absent in court that then cost you money and then you
have to come back again and then the balloon and you don't have enough hundred to pay for it and pay half of it and then charge you for a late payment so start off with a simple parking ticket. a story of a woman in the d.o.j. report with a simple parking ticket who ends up owing like $600 and being arrested and put in jail three times. because she has oustanding warrants on her like that's the thing that's so dangerous that happens across america. right small infractions, a small infraction plus a missed court date equals a warrant, and then the next person, next time that person is interacting with a cop and plate and id is run oh, there's a warrant next thing you know you're in jail you can end new a jail for that thing that started as most minor initial observance. >> right. these when a year -- laughing because it is just like so absurd also angering, about the detail these practices and what's going on in new york city with or what went on with broken
windows with and zero tolerance in ways in which criminal justice system has been used with essentially manage citizens. so i'm wongtdering if you can talk about how citizens in the kolgny as you describe are policed entirely differently than citizens in the rest of the nation. >> there's a famous atlantic article written by james and george in 1982 called broken windows an i would say it's got to be one of the most influential magazine articles ever published it was just a magazine article not a scholarly piece that peer reviewed but ine atlantic by the two people that did it are academics but a public -- and it starts off actually it actually starts from an interesting in some ways actually really good place. the initial experiment that they are writing about is a newark experiment basically trying to
get cops out of cars to quack the beaten a lot of reason to think that's good. and the experiment is, if cops pouk on order maintenance, not just the law. but order hains, will they reduce crime? what's incredible about that article is experiment they site finds no reduction in crime. but what they find is a kind of placebo effect that people report are feeling safer and then they take this finding to it make an argument to completely sort of -- reorr orient policing towards an older model of policing which they explicit about like we want to go become to the good old days before the law in court and procedurallism and before miranda and joke about all sorts of things cops would do to maintained or back in the days that, you know, rough up the young -- that wot past legal muster now saying we want to go back to old
order maintenance model of policing which should be told as a model policing for a very long period of time. in the face of what has been this sort of war in court revolution and we want to pox on order maintenance. and what order maintenance means is, you use the title of the book right the, if there's one broken window in a neighborhood what it says what it communicates to community is no one is policing, watching you can break other qoindz so one broken window it will lead to more. so drinking out of an open bottle next thing you know you get mugging so murder, a slippery cascade in which the -- if you think of a woven garment and pulling loose threads through the small infractions before you know the whole thing has unwound. that's the argument. and it is just enormously inthriewn cial even though the case has never quite been
settled in any definitive way like there are all sorts of studies about order maintenance, and a crime and some find a small effect some find no effect. but what happened was -- this idea of policing of focusing on order gets adopted particularly this new york city and before crime starts falling in new york city dramatically and it produces -- i don't think unreasonably or insanely. it produces a causal story for everyone to go tell. so rudy giuliani says i'm going to get rid of the men, a scourge of moshings then in my youth and stop at a red light and almost always a man and almost always a man of color who was poor. would come to your window and start washing your window and then you would have this -- kind of essentially kind of hustles into paying until in a way that felt vaguely threatening but also just sort of put a knot in your stomach.
people didn't like it. it is fine not to like that sort of a pain but that became the sort of symbolic villain of the giuliani men and not only that bill but the ideal with a causal chain that linked the man here to murderers here. and that by going after the men you would stamp out murders and what happened had was rudy giuliani went after them policing in the city became much more aggressive order maintenance became much more of a -- of a sort of priority. and also crime went down and so rudy giuliani and william bratton police chief at the time and went to l.a. implemented there and back to new york and everyone can say look this is the -- basic causal theory at work. again 20 years later, 30 years later we still don't have a good handle on why crime dropped as it did -- and there's no deservetive work bearing out this basic thing is what actually happened. but police and -- city administrate believe it
deeply so now what we have is a fundamental reinvention of the justice system in the city like new york in which at yale university has written this incredible work on this is misdemeanor court system becomes like this entire massive court system to patrol public urine with nation, public drinking, selling m&m on subways, selling handbags on the street all of these municipality violations that are part of the broken windows code of enforcement and then you start channeling people in this huge funnel into a criminal system who does job is basically to kind of sort people between the kind of people who will show up for a court date and be done with them and kind of people lives so disordered they don't and next thing you know you have flownny convictions. >> where do we go here? you pull out a famous quote about what it is like to live in the colony that you imagine like is only one way to police a ghetto was a process he writes.
so no one knows my name and police operate i think as occupying soldier in a bitterly house so how can we improve relationships between -- people in the colony and police and many cities like ferguson -- the people who are being policed live in the colony and police officers themselves it is live in your conception of what had the nation is. >> i think i have through the writing of the book i've become convinced that we have to -- in some ways undo a little bit, the telling wilson revolution. and there's some part of me what is freaked about coming to that conclusion in some ways i like not having broken windows and you know what i'm honest about that in the book so the experience of the city really changed and it changed for people like me who are not subject to stop and frisk like costs were paid by people i didn't see. didn't you know -- and neighborhoods that i wasn't spengtding a lot of time in.
but the sort of -- fundamental kind of alteration of the city was pleasant and there was some fear of like okay going back to the battle days with graffiti on the train all of this stuff but i do think that like -- the fundamental idea of order maintenance is a role of police is -- particularly in communities of concentrate ared pot and violence is -- create ared toxicity. i also think there has to be a way, people pawb policing and interesting example with this policing protocol reduced crime also reduced complaints against police officers. i think at the top level way we have to view the job of the whole system of producing safety and security as opposed to order.
or even lawfulness. >> right, you know what i mean? like actually the thing we want to safety and security we also want to find channel, we need to have -- another priority and this is the flipside of this whole conversation which is explored in -- the great book ghetto side about homicide and homicide clearance rates right, like the double edged -- the other side of the coin of like evaluation of black live when is they use lives at hands-of-the- police but when they lose their wives in murder it has been historically the case. i mean there's a -- in 1966 -- no 1963 mallcolm xx says how is it the case that the most violent neighborhoods also have the most police and yet still have the most murder -- like where were -- what was wrong with this picture which is still the case today? and one of the things she focuses on is that she kind of
makes the case that -- got a great line about modern policing system is like a bully that will like intimidate people over small infractions but revealed to be a coward in the face of murder. >> policing and underprotecting people that is exactly -- the problem in a nutshell. >> part of it too you raise this in the book is this, you know policing in the colony so much about getting the bad guy instead of helping people. so i think part of it is like if we approach public safety and policings itself as something that's a service about helping poem not necessarily about lacking as many people as possible. >> experiment i run in my head is what if there's one mental health counselor and one addiction counselor every one cop on the west side of chicago and i almost mean this as in a literal sense i would love for someone to fund this experiment just like pick a neighborhood that has a lot of crime and let's just say --
you know, i think there's a back and forth about harlem children zone and -- but that was a sort of in another context sort of idea like put resources tailgate for people like what if we just said let's pick a neighborhood -- and baltimore, chicago that is experiencing exactly this over policing and under protection right dual problem. and we just said let's approach it with a sort of full spectrum of resources like police are one prong of a three legged stool along with addiction and mental het and conflict litigation and interrupters and violence and peel have done stuff successful violence intervention along those license but they have have resources of a police department and happening always more money goes to the police. >> exactly. >> l and there's kind amazing tg that police are able to do and again -- i don't to -- i don't to -- leave you with the idea that i think this is bad faith there are so many police officers i've
talked to who are in good faith want to protect people and crime go down and people at high levels administrators who are data driven and really like sophisticated thinkers about this stuff if you look at baltimore right now it is extremely upsetting since the death. the homicide rate is -- emergency and grappling with what that means but fundamentally there's a amazing thing police departments have been able to do if crime is going down, right -- then police need more money because what they're doing is working. and if you cut them off then crime will come back up. if crime is going up, then they need more money because they don't have enough money to keep kriemg down. [laughter] so you have this incredible argument where like a police department is always whether things are are going well or poorly, there's always the sense you need more police and money for police. because we just invested so much from social welfare programs,
fast 50 years, and i want to get back to what you said earlier about what was interesting about this this fear of okay what happens we do completely get rid of broken windows style order o of maintenance and police because one of the central concepts in the book that you use to explain how question get these policies is fear. which i thought was really interesting so you wrote white fear expressing forbidden knowledge that all white people carry with them we've got it better. if white people have it better isn't it logical that black people will tack what we have, you then go on toe talk about the -- belief like stemming from this that what's good for the colony is how bad for the nation you see it so much playing out in election arena and ways in which different groups interact. so i found this just extremely kind of propounds and it could be a way to think about developments in u.s. history
from so-called indian war and jefferson -- >> partly because like it was true in certain ways -- you know, the foundational experience of a country, right is essentially white people coming to a land that's not their own, and concurring, settling it, while through incredible struggle and violence at the huge cost of a lives of other nonwhite people. but also as a suggestive experience of hardship and terror. like you know it wasn't like poof we did it. like the experience of the colonies are just unceasingly terrible and terrifying it. their way less terrible and terrifying than indig news people that are rendered extinct but subjectively that's true at the fronner to and true like if you go to read the handbills that were passed around during slavery when they were constantly worried about slavery
billing. so they have to be. even as you win -- you concur you're on top of the social war, the sense because you're on top, because you sort of won this zero son game, gain that you have to -- defend it because people will come for it. in the early foundational years of the colony was zero, there's this land -- you're going to farm it or o 50*eu78 -- i'm going to farm it so ting that experience of kind of white fear this experience of twinge feeling of -- the ability of white people to feel terrified while committing atrocities -- like we look at the pictures of lynching now, right? the people who go to lynch mobs like -- they would tell you what they
were doing was defensive. that they were enforcing social order because if they didn't their women would be -- and you know part of that is an excuse for savagery but subjective experience, and so i think like it is just really important to -- that core feeling that had i have a version of when i think about like what the city would be like if it was policed differently what that would mean for my wife there's two -- there's two way of theg about zero there's an interesting debate i feel like right now about this. one is that i feel like a lot of black intellectuals that i really respect really do say white privilege is actually tangible material gain at the expense of black people. and that it is a version of a pie that has been cut with one slice significantly bigger than had the other. right? that's one way of viewing it. like it is kind of disaster
zerosome and material game at the expense of material loss for nonwhite people. the other way of viewing it is luke a social pathology that -- stands in the way of mutual human flourishing right that -- i'm of the belief perhaps partly faith based that a less racist and less white society would be better for white people. i really do believe that. like partly i think that because i believe in human beings that i believe like burning the potential of a million of people on the bottom side of the criminal justice system every year like absolutely makes us worse off and poorer. like we definitely sacrifice collective wealth betterment through that process. i also think that like -- white fear is a shackle of its own kind. i >> can you talk about it a little?
in the book i appreciated ways in which you wove your personal experience to kind of highlight that you're larger kind of socioeconomic analysis. so can you talk about like your own o white fore and how u that states your -- way you understand these issues? >> i mean, i think i -- informative for me to be in new york commuting particularly when you're a 12 or 13-year-old boy you're just a sitting duck like you get like you save up money to buy your fresh starter cap which you know what i mean? or you're like save up money to buy like your first sneakers or o your like -- [laughter] like dope new winter coat and then you just like bop around being like mug me. which is like experience of -- my adolescence so my experience
was bounds up with fear. every step was like -- peripheral vision like this specific way of looking that your eyes are up enough to see what's going on but not too high that you accidentally make eye contact because that might initiate and plant the idea in someone's head to mess with you. who didn't have it. that experience was really formative and visceral and i alo sort of socially cultivated that's part of what makes white fear potent is that i call it in the book like a calm response. you know between the speaker and the crowd -- you see this in donald trump rallies almost literal fence. that you are individually experiencing that fear and being socially amplified by the media you consume, and so --
yeah you just come, i think you come to a suspicious of blackness, and i think for me it was mitigated bit fact that like -- that the other thing that was happening in my adolescence blackness associated with this kind of like sophistication, coolness, like aspirational in almost in some way kid in high school -- is like dominant culture to aspire to is black culture so you have it complicated relationship with it. [laughter] and i think that -- what is most interesting to me is how potent it can be in the absence of the experience. right, so as messed up as the, racial politics of the state like new york are -- and can be where people are on top of each other what's amazing how much that conclude exported to places in which that isn't the the case. >> well can you talk about that?
because that's where it seems like this concept is really key to helping us understand the rise of mass incarceration and why we have grown and in some places even more seg reare gaited and unequal. >> i think we've nicole and jones wrote a book about this based on incredible piece by pea body the problem to live with. but there's two parts to story l of this writes in some ways your book, so like this -- this era of what we start at the moment of sort of the peak victory of the civil rights movement in this sort of bound sense that we think of it that starts at the moment when, you know -- when does your jim discrimination and seg segregation and fight comes to northern cities where essentially the fight is lost.
you get the fair housing act in some ways a high water mark. but then you have the busting fight and you get what you get you get essentially a society that will gives up on the project of desegregation through a social project through a million different municipality decisions through dozens of court decision that just widle away at it including recent once like parent involved parpts involved which had essentially like makes it almost impossible to create it voluntarily for a school district through -- the abandonment of fair housing legislation often. like the enforce m of it. what facilitates is this is like okay we have people living near each other and girch up on the project of desegregation so we come to corralling and controlling. that to me and in a big thing i've come to believe in writing
this book is that like -- it is to explicitly in termss a social project. >> part of that, i mean, because we are so divided and so separate, it seems like that, that fear of the unknown and white fear played out in the most recent election and it was in kind of the rhetoric but also who set up polls and why and what make america great again means to me playing in the white fear so i guess i'm wondering nows in context of the trump administration clearly you were kind of writing u you've been working on this book imagine well before the election. and like writing along side it i'm wondering especially with thing like d.o.j. report with sessions like where do you think we are now with -- with trump and how the implication of your book might be different or the same or maybe reenforced?
>> project is why we built this and what we saw in the election is a great example of why we built this which is the -- here's my, my sort of unified theory of donald trump and in respect the book. the great mystery in some ways election was how does a new york city, urban billionaire real estate err connect to white working class voters of materially decimated places across america? like outside youngs town, ohio, why? why him? and the answer to me is that -- the man's world view is formed in 1980s and 1990s new york which is experience of material decline the place is going to hell. and it's done at the hand of some other. and it turns out that that story is endlessly exportable so he wect to eerie, virginia, and
ohio and in wisconsin and sad you're experiencing your decline decline, we're boing to back to greatness and those people over there that are causing the decline. many this case it was i think the sort of prime villain in the story with immigrants rather than black people. but they're married. in some ways look what d.o.j. did today speaking announcing new website to show crimes commit by unauthorized immigrants. which is just this going to be official projects of the government to publish to -- to essentially create in the public mint mind association of criminality with unauthorized immigration. and that is the projects that was carried out over a course of several decades through law and order rhetoric and et cetera to associate blackness criminality.
so it's not an act in rudy gym i can knee biggest campaign surrogate and not accident that jeff sessions -- who said that, you know, who talked about police departments hand strung by these consent decree head of d.o.j. and identify are now embodied to highest reach of governments. world view of the federal government embodies this zero some idea this broken window idea and border wall to me is most literal manifestation of broken windows. j tab that, how's so? >> i think that like broken windows at some point at some level appeal of broken windows is about sort of the fear -- this near rottic fear about unraveling sort of penetration and like the jungle reclaiming that civilized thoughts. and so what is more literally a manifestation of that in idea that you will physically, literally build a border to keep
out the disorder? not only that -- sell that to people who live 1500 miles from the border think about the people that cheered the mexico will build for the wall he's rally in michigan -- okay. he's -- 100 miles from the northern border, however, many thousands building a wall with on southern border like what do you care? what's that do to your life? what it does in that same kind of broken window way in that s.a.t. same fear of disorder and disorder as a particularly kind of like other nonwhite -- catalyst, it says i will, i will wall you off from the disorder that is coming i will protect you from the -- from are the disorder that is threatening your material well being. like that's the same recipe.
>> we see emerging loonside civil rights with johnson and nixon you quote there idea that the first, first civil right is actually safety. and so i was wondering and that's the eye in my work i've struggled with with thinking about complication for domestic pals and broken window and wall what do you think the kind of first and foremost is. do you think you agree that it is safety? that is really hard. weird if you frame it that way it is hard to get away from are it. at some level -- i mean that's right tha the title of the book that sb the way that -- liberals and nixon in that same speech. at some level there's a truth to it in the sense that idea about monopoly on violence so it is the case that like what the state does at its most essential
core level is to arrogate to itself the ability to arbitrate disputes and to monopolize violence and so -- a place like somalia in the midst of no state right is incapable of extending any rights. right without like a functioning state. but it also seemed like a weirdly low bar like if -- what is it look a -- >> i thought given to what you say this the book that you would have said equality because , i mean, given -- given our values it seems like and for there have been points in american history where that has been championed as -- civil war with abraham lincoln for instance are, but yeah. >> i guess, i guess i reject the idea i guess i would say that like -- it that the most charitable version of that argument on the
other side is that like, a would be impossible under condition of wardism so you have to essentially produce some -- you need the basics of a state to produce the kind of flourishing. but that doesn't mean that like that's all you should purr sow or more clear which makes it it also weird like one of the ways i want people to think about -- in this book and i think i sort of explicitly said it in book stalk and sort of in the book is you've got to think about the system as cost and benefits and you have to think who is costing and one way to run experiment if you live in the nation you don't have a lot of interactions with the system you don't know how to operate. like what system do you want if someone you loved was accused of crime? >> that it leads to one of my favorite passages of book that cools in the formal of a series of questions i'm gong to read what these are -- so this is quite profound what kind of justice system would exist in a study in which each member of the society were
actually valued as a full human with tremendous potential. even if he or she committed a crime or hurt someone or broke the community's norm and were held accountable. what would a criminal public system for elite look like how would people with paver power and privilege choose to police themselves if you gave them the ability so these are kind of like big philosophical impossible to answer questions but i don't know what do you think some -- what would that actually look like? >> in some ways part of what that looks like it campus justice. ening talk about that -- i write about that a lot. right so we have these situations we have parallel justice ises at brown university and university of michigan or -- canyon college right, they actually have like campus cop and they have campus judicial codes, and the campus codes very interestingly like span violation of norm and violation of laws which is sort of hard to get your head around. they are almost distinct legal regime so there's a drug policy frings.
that's a violation of a high -- rate of federal law in certain cases but it's -- it's in the same spectrum of plagiarism that the -- that community says these are are our laws and even sexual assault is in there as well. right, so -- >> i love by the way how you describe college campus and way that people talk about low income black latino communities are like disorderly all of these kids who sleep all day. do drugs -- >> yes. completely disorderly, in fact -- lawless i call them in the book elite rum spring like the idea that we actually package the whole thing is like -- some day you're going to be like investment banker and lawyer and doctor and sending off to a place to do a lot of drugs and like -- have a lot of nonmarital sex and -- like but you'll be in the kind of room where like nothing you don't be able to hurt yourself too badly. buzz you'll be this this
environment it is like you're going to go bowling with inflatable things in the gutters. right, that's where with like what that is literally like you're not going to get arrested. >> not pathological. >> i actually think like i have some theory that -- a huge part of crime and disorder and pathology is actually about -- the way that -- human beings are supported through their adolescence and early adulthood. i think elites throw unimaginable am of resources which is a very difficult period for lots of reasons it is easy to get knocked off course. very easy to like where peer pressure has profound effect and i think this is kind of in a nonlefty way a universal truth about human beings but you're socially essential to young adults and i think that -- college is a huge part of that.
the way that elite comnts deal with that period of time and resources they have and structures they built with them opposed to community are able to, it is just hugely different. but it is actually a lot of same stuff. it's like peer pressure, reare bellon -- substances -- sex and romance. that's -- you know, that is like what is gangs but peer pressure wanting to belong what do gangs that end up in homicide tend to be? they tend to be about sex and romance and like -- so where like feelings of disarmor all of this stuff is like real deep fundamental stuff that gets dealt with in totally different ways in totally safer ways -- talk about campus justice. >> basically forgiving basically top line take away, headline is you've got to really go out of your way --
really go out of your way to get a criminal at brown university. a lot of things are tolerated and not only that it would be outrage us to the parents that are spending all of the this money at places if getting caught with weed in your dorm room gave you a record. like, because the idea is -- as i ask them that question you're a human being with huge potential. that some veering off course shouldn't be a thing that puts a permanent stain on you that identifies your future employers that you're disordered in some way you're in this place where justice system is constructed to be like -- really forgiving. about transgression and also i want to be clear about this too as i am in the book sometimes the detriment in the case of sexual assault. like there's a relationship between two like the idea of these are all bright future stars. means like -- we're not going to come down too
hard on the kid now has three different sexual assault claims against him. so it's not like you ever escape real tough questions what to do and design a system that punishes and holds accountable people that commits against community norms like that's a hard question about where you put the level but intructive where they have control basically of designing the system. >> but also like you say i think related to these assumption and white fear some groups are seen as harboring amazing potential and others are potential delinquents? >> i think the -- you know, i say in the book that like we -- with crime we don't talk about acts but in the context of elite it is acts so -- who was apparently serially
sexually abusing boys while a high school wrestling coach got letters from his buddies in congress saying this is a good person. and that's because they have separated in their minds they've separated essence from what they committed. that's something that people are really able to do when they know the person or love the person but when it is some other we reduce are them to the act. >> part of that okay is i think recognizing everyone's humanity which one more we have a few morefins but get this in but you ask i think towards the end what would it mean if the nation and a colony were joined if borders are raised and humanity full l humanity of every single human citizen recognized in our society and even just to start in our policy o. so i know this is like a hard question we've talked about some of this but how do we begin to get there? cretely how do we get rid of that border between the two? >> i do think the first place to
start is in like a citizen to citizen and siflt society and building civil society together. like i do think that -- june yen genuine relationships are biment and in carolina are, moral mondays people come to really view etch other through collective work together. there's always this idea of like we need to have conversations like i don't think, i think work, i think like being together and doing work together the work of citizenship the work of civil society, act of politics working on campaigns together like that's the thing that does it. more than -- conversation because that's how you actually produce the thing in miniature with all of the its pitfall and conflict that doesn't mean people get along or -- people don't say really dumb stuff and get angry at that dumb stuff but it does mean it is
affect of being joingtly active together that -- begins to embody that to me. >> how do you get white fear in the book white people to overcome that and say i want to build this multiracial -- >> i think that actually like that's what i think -- fighting on things that aren't explicitly about racial justice can bring people into contact with racial justice. like that's the potential of okay i'm saving my medicaid you are fighting to save your medicaid or i'm fighting for fishing and wage and you are fighting for $15 minimum wage but i'm fighting for wage and we're in this fight together. there are -- there has bnl shown time and time again peel are organized around their concerns along like deeply anti-race cyst and sort of racially pluralistic line can produce changes in how they think about this stuff even
place they're starting from isn't i'm signing up for this rairl justice fight. >> well let's hope to begin to build that movement. this has been a really stimulating conversation thank you so much. >> thank you it's great. here's a look at some of the best current selling books according to conservative book club toking the list journalist johnthon and amy behind the scenes at hillary clinton's 2016 candidacy shattered. .. .... ....
>> of their mission to help u.s. forces secure ramadi. and next up, killing the rising son. and wrapping up our look at the conservative book club current non-fiction best sellers, paintings of american soldiers; portraits of courage. many of these authors have or will appear on booktv. you can watch thel on our website