tv Democracy CSPAN September 3, 2017 7:05am-8:06am EDT
buys up stock with the idea that it's going to go up and he will make money so it's like handicapping horses or gambling in other ways and i don't feel it has the same kind of tax advantage that capital gains advantage apply to those now. >> guest: it's a great question that there's no doubt that with online trading now, there's a lot of people just rent stocks for an hour, a day, a week or a month and the long-term investors and as a result that puts pressure on companies to think long term, to think short-term and the more they do that, that tends to lead to less sound decision-making over the long run so anything that occurs to these people will be long-term individual investors that occurs companies to dolong-term actual investors, that's
probably a net good thing . >> host: at the same time it's not going to change back to what it was before. weare where we are so the question is really , there are companies now that in recent comes months, big companies and at&t was one of them that says were not going to give quarterly updates. we will tell you where we are going, you want to join us, join us but we're not going to give you every quarter guidance and predictions. that's no way to make good, healthy long-term decision-making. >> host: next call comes from symphony cynthia, oak ridge new jersey, you are on tv, please go ahead. >> caller: mister friedman, i had heard you speak and you talk about lifelong learning and i agree with that completely. but i am 63 years old and i have a lot of trouble dealing
with the computers and i live on a fixed income of less than $1100 a month and i have tried to teach myself and i just don't have anyone to help me. so how do you direct people like me with fixed incomes and not, who grew up with the technology and to learn these things and be able to continue because it's hard even to deal with doctors and medical professionals. >> host: before we get an answer from mister friedman, do you think you are willing or do you think you are resistant to this new technology? >>. >> caller: i'm willing. i would like to be able to be a part of it because it's onlyme back, i feel . >> host: thank you ma'am.
>> guest: that's a profound and important question, thank you for calling in with that. there's a couple things i would say. first i would look into whether your local library has courses, just on a basic introduction to computers and online and the other thing i'd encourage you is if you have a computer, this is not hard to find, though to a site called con academy and it's a wonderful introduction book of math but also just history programs and i think you will find it's extremely user-friendly. but there are actually a lot of things online. if you put into your computer free education courses and scroll down, you will be amazed at what you will find it. but even imagining the basics of the computer, i understand that it's difficult. just consult your local library, your local adult
learning services and i bet there are worse as you could take that are a great introduction for someone like yourself but your question is important,thank you for sharing it . >> host: as someone who writes for a legacy newspaper, how has your life changed in the last 10 years or so because of technology? >> guest: the first time i was on c-span was for a book called beirut jerusalem in 1998. i had a physical researcher, he sat next to me. i gave him assignments and he went to the library and got the answers. with my new book, this one thank you for being late, i had an amazing researcher. her name was google. he never asked me a question, she worked 24 seven 365. she was free and she found every answer. that's really the difference. and not only did i google, i found i could simply ask a question like what kind of audience does c-span have?
and is c-span in the book business? the kind of people who call into c-span and somebody would take me this, sociological studies of your audience. google is getting deeper, richer all the time. >> host: last call for thomas friedman comes from annette in california. go ahead. >> caller: i'm 76 years old so why should i buy an iphone? >> guest: good one. [laughter] let me just say one of my favorite lines in the book is from my friend who says when you press the pause button on a computer, it stops but when you press the pause button on a human being, it starts. that's when it starts to reflect, rethink and imagine. i was on a trip to the middle
east with the head of the air force in two days before the end of the trip i left my phone on a helicopter. i didn't have my phone for the last two days and they were the best two days of the trip. i was listening to everybody, i wasn't trying to take a picture of everything.i wasn't randomly scrolling my email. got you, trust me, you may want it for emergency or to be in touch with your grandkids but other than that you will be just fine. this book celebrates everything old and it's all the things you cannot download that youhave to upload the old-fashioned way with good friends, good keeping, good family so god bless you . >> host: i left my phone on the set and came back down to get it and before i went any further, here's the book, "thanks for being late", and optimists guide to thriving in the age of acceleration. thomas friedman of the new york times is the author. book tvs live coverage of the
20 17th national book festival now continues. next up is former secretary of the state and author condoleezza rice. her book is called "democracy: stories on the long road to freedom". this is book tv on c-span2, live coverage. [applause] and doctor rice is going to be interviewed for us by one of the best interviewers i know who has his own show on bloomberg, our national book festival cochair and generous reporter mister david rubenstein. please welcome both of them and thank and enjoy. >> thank you very much for coming. >> thank you welcome to
everybody, thanks for being here. it's a great event, great event. >> hard to believe but you've now been out of government for nine years so before we get into your new book on democracy which i highly recommend and let's talk about it in a few moments, tell us what you've been doing is you left government other than writing three best-selling books, this is a third but you are teaching at stanford, and what else are you doing? >> i've gone back to my first profession in washington, i've been at stanford since i was 25 years old. i started that as a professor so i've returned to stanford. my appointment is in the business school but i teach both business and undergraduates, i teach a course on american foreign policy. i've been able to do a little bit of work in the private sector, a little bit in the
private sector and i'm spending a lot more time practicing the piano than i did when i was in the government because that's really a great love and i'm trying to improve my golf handicap, that's a lot harder than playing the piano. >> you are one of the first two women to be elected to the augusta national golf club. so was that an honor you ever expected? >> i was stunned and when a good friend was a member of augusta came out to tell me that iwas being invited , i just sat there dumbfounded and he said you are going to say yes, right? i said yes, i am but i was completely taken by surprise. >> tell me, i will tell anybody but what is your handicap? >> it's not really a state secret. for those of you who are golfers, there's something called an index and you take that index and you go to different courses and depending on the difficulty of the course youestablish your handicap . my index is 11.6 which means that on most courses on about 13 or 14 handicap.
>> okay, so did you ever play with president george w. bush? >> i have played with president bush on a number of occasions. he plays speedball, really fast, you almost have to run to your belk bowl but yes, we played together. >> and music, you trained to be a classical music pianist and i've seen you perform with yo-yo ma among others you do a lot of those concerts anymore? >> i do at least three concerts a year, i was fortunate to play with yo-yo ma at his recent music festival at the kennedy center. you're such a great leave leader david but at least once a year i play a concert with a professional quartet from boston university and we do a benefit for a charity that we started called classical for kids, it puts musical instruments in the schools because i believe like everybody that we need stem.
science, technology and mathematics but i'm also a great believer that we need the arts, arcades may be closer to the arts. so. >> i want to focus on your book but people may not know, there may be one or two biographies, you were born and grew up in birmingham. and it was a segregated south and jim crow laws so when you were growing up how long did it take before you realize you were not being the treated the same as everybody else? >> i grew up in birmingham, the most segregated city in the country at the time. it was the place where the complete police commissioner was well known for his brutality toward blacks and it didn't take long to know that your parents who were a little embarrassed that they couldn't take you to a restaurant or a movie theater, they were never people who let us the full community that i grew up in
which is mostly schoolteachers, my parents were educators, they never let us feel in any way that we were victims. they always said when you consider yourself a victim you lost control so don't ever think of yourself as a victim. they also said you're going to have to be twice as good. they didn't say that as a matter of debate, they said it as a matter of fact because education was supposed to be your armor against prejudice. but i remember the very first time i really came home i went to see and you know how it works, you take a kid and a santa claus would stick it on the knee and says what will you have for christmas? this santa claus was taking the little white kids and putting them on his knee and holding the little black kids out here to talk to them. and my father who was a former football player, my bad dad was spring, 240 he said to my mother, angelina, if he does that to condoleezza i am going to pull all that stuff off of him and expose him as the
cracker that he is he said. >> what happened? >> so you're this little girl and you are five and its santa claus daddy. how is this going to end up? santa claus must have read my father's body language because when he came to me, he put me on his knee and said what would you like for christmas? i remember that was the first time i thought this is really terrible and over santa claus of all things. >> one of the things that might have been unusual is you had an unusual first name, where did that name come from? >> condoleezza is my mother's attempt to anglophile condo test which is an italian means your sweetness. >> i don't know, maybe she was the boat here but that's what it meant. and her name was angelina and i haven't uncle, i have an aunt genoa whose one of the southerners we call vanilla but i think that she wanted an italian and she first
started about on dante but that meant walking slowly so that wasn't so good, alendronate fast, that definitely wasn't good so she came up with contessa and i look isa. >> all both your parents moved out of birmingham back to denver. and you ultimately went to school at university of denver where you graduated phi beta kappa. and then you went to notre dame. >> and then no cheering or anything, you are a graduate student. >> i love football, are you kidding? of course i went tonotre dame, everybody does. >> you went back to university of denver . and then you were recruited to stanford, is that right? and your specialty was opiate and russian. >> why did you happen to pick? it wasn't the normal thing you might say i was a failed music major. i started in college as a
piano major. >> i studied piano from the age of three, my grandmother taught piano so i learned young and about the end of my sophomore year in college, i went to the aspen music festival school and i'm 12-year-olds who were teaching me to learn and i thought i was about to end up with a piano bar someplace playing for a huge and so i wandered back with no major and i took the class, international politics taught by a man named joseph korbel who was madeleine albright father and all of a sudden i knew what i wanted to be. i wanted to study easter diplomacy international and that took me then into international politics as a major and ultimately as a degree. >> i don't know if telling the story that the father once said that his favorite student was you. x and she was surprised that you had been there, she had known that for a long time to put your academic career in stanford and you got involved
in the george herbert walker bush administration, served in the national security council x it's a really important story because there is this notion that we sometimes have that i got there on my own, nobody gets there on their own. there's always somebody advocating for you, working for you and for me, broke the law who had been national security advisor to gerald ford came up to stanford to get to talk and i was a second-year professor at stanford and got to know me and he said i want to know you better, i like your work and i was getting new known for my work on the military. so he started taking me to the conferences like the aspen strategy group and he really meant for me into the field and i often say there's
another lesson in that, we also say you have to have role models and mentors who look like you. it's great if you do but if i've been waiting for a black female soviet specialist, i'd still be waiting and instead, my role models and indeed my mentors were white men. they were men, those were the people who dominated my field so i always say to my students, your mentors just have to be people who believe in you. and who see things in you that you don't necessarily see in yourself. >> so he helped you get a job on bush 41. >> when george bush was elected he asked me to be a national security advisor and he told me, he said this is 1988 remember, he said the son of gorbachev is interesting in the soviet union, the president going to need somebody to help them sorted out, you want to be the soviet? and i got to be the white house soviet instructor by the end of the world war. >> you speak russian? >> i do speak russian. >> so after that
administration is over, you went back to stanford again when george w. bush was running for president, how did you get involved with that? >> i was the operating officer of the university and a happy academic. so george hw bush called me and he said you know my son was governor of texas, he's thinking about running for president and i'd like you to talk to him about foreign policy. i spent a couple days with him and after he asked me to organize his foreign-policy campaign and that's how i got involved with george w. bush. >> were you surprised he asked you to be the national security advisor at the beginning of that administration? >> at the time he got to his election i figured i would go into the administration and national security advisor, i've been on the council before. >> how many women has served as national security advisor before you? >> not.
[applause] >> okay. let's talk about this book. why did you feel compelled to write a book about democracy? >> in many ways i wanted to write this book for a long time because it is in some ways and expression of my own life. i am a firm believer that there is no other system that affords the kind of dignity did that human beings crave then to be able to be free from the mouth of the secret police, to be able to say what you think, to worship what you please and most importantly to have those who govern you have to ask for your consent. growing up in segregated birmingham where my parents and relatives were half citizens, it still fundamentally believe in the democracy, i make one story in the book, i was with my
uncle and he picked me up from school and it was election day in alabama and i was three years old or so and i knew in my own six-year-old way this man george wallace was not good or black people. there were long lines of people going in to vote. >> and it was segregated of course because they were all black so i said to my uncle if all these people vote, then that george wallace can't possibly win. and my uncle said no, he said we are a minority. george wallace is going to win anyway. and i said to him, so why do they bother? >> he said because they know that one day their votes will matter. and i never forgot that. and i thought as i wrote this book of the extraordinary tory of the united states of america and its constitution that was given to america by
its founders, these high-minded words about quality. and yet the country is born with a birth defect of slavery. but how this same constitution that had once countered in the compromise my ancestors 3/5 of a man would be the same constitution which i would take the oval office as a 66 secretary of state. under benjamin franklin, sworn in by a jewish woman, ruth bader ginsburg and that to me is the story of democracy. >> you point out in the book that you are african-american but actually 30 percent of your bloodline is white. >> 40 percent of my bloodline is european. >> and what percentage agent? >> it's something other, some other. >> in birmingham, the one girls that were killed in the bombing, were they people
that you knew? >> absolutely and birmingham community, particularly professionals was too small and denise mcnair, one of the four girls in the 16th street baptist church bombing in september1963 , have been in my father's kindergarten, i've done kindergarten with her and there's a picture of my father giving her her kindergarten diploma. >> father was the photographer at everybody's wedding. wedding birthday party and so yes, addie may collins had been in my uncles homeroom. at l and i remember saying that they got monday when they went back to school, they went to an empty chair. so yes when that happened, did your family say we should move out of here? >> i do remember the first time being those in my parents eyes about what to do to protect me.
but no, we stayed there. birmingham began to change and again, it's a story of democracy. that same constitution would be used by the naacp and thurgood marshall and others starting all the way back and i cited in the book with a model report, 1937 and they would sit there on friday morning and they would decide what cases they were going to take to try and break down segregation and inequality. and that would eventually end up in the civil rights act of 1954, the voting rights act of 1965 the first time my parents and i go to a restaurant two days after the civil rights act had passed, they said let's go out to dinner so we got all dressed up and we went to this hotel for dinner and i remember the people sort of looking up from their booth and then maybe realizing that now it was okay. >> so in your book you find out that we had a birth defect, slavery but when
slavery was ended in 1865, we went to jim crow laws. how do you as an african-american rationalize what our country did after the civil rights amendments to the constitution, we still went through 100 years or so of discrimination. how do you that democracy is such a wonderful system and our country is so great and we had to live through that? >> there is no perfect system that human beings ever created. and yet, because of the institutions that we work, that the constitution supports, independent judiciary, slowly but surely the rights of the descendents of slaves would spawn through those very institutions. martin luther king and others took on the struggle, doctor dorothy height who was a very dear mentor of mine, the only
real woman among those great civil rights leaders, they went to asking america to be something else, they would say america, be what you say you are. you're in a much younger position when you have those institutions inplace and you can appeal to those institutions so in any system , the bringing of rights to people is a difficult and sticky and hard system. and our system, extremely hard. but i looked at how far we've come, still a long way to go and i think we've actually done better than i can think of any placein the world has done . >> so today you're a very accomplished person, very famous. you feel any discrimination anywhere in the world and anything you do? >> i always say anytime you're a senior professor at stanford or secretary of state or somebody treat you bad because of your race or gender, it's your fault, not
theirs. i feel very strongly that i am able to achieve what i want to achieve and i tried to tell my students to feel the same way. it goes back to what my parents said. if you consider yourself a victim then somebody else has control of your life. we all know that there are great inequalities in our society and we know that our great national list doesn't matter where you came from, it matters where you are going. you can do great things. that isn't true for all of our people. so our goal, our job as citizens of the democracy has to be to use these institutions to demand that they deliver on that promise. not showing them because they are still the best options for getting there. >> your parents did they leave this see your great success as a professional?
>> i left my mother very young. my mother was 61 years old, i was 30 when she died but she did get to see me be a professor at stanford. the christmas before she died i gave her my first book, it was called the czechoslovak army and the soviet union, it had been my dissertation and in case you don't know this, neither of those countries actually exist anymore and so i gave her the book and she told me to become a professor and my father knew that i become national security professor. the less. >> so you know the pressure of being an only child. >> that's why a sports fanatic, because that was my father's profession and a music fanatic because that was my mother's passion. you have to satisfy both.
>> let's talk about democracy around the rest of the world. the united states has a democracy, maybe the best in the world, it's not perfect, you talk about the soviet union and russia, subject you know about but a couple times democracy broke out in russia. after both of the bolshevik revolution and i guess relate aftergorbachev lost power. why did democracy in both cases disappear from russia ? after gorbachev lost power one thing i think we do is dismiss one of the explanations that you sometimes get about russia , that the russians somehow have the right dna for democracy. i just don't believe that there are any people on the face of the earth who are capable of democracy and david, you know that we have used coastal arguments so the germans were once supposed to be marshals for democracy, the asians korea and japan. the africans were to try but of course you've got donna, you've got liberia that's
going through a long democracy, i'm eric americans prefer men on horseback but of course now there's brazil and chile and colombia and by the way, african americans care about that thing pulled the vote and they had a black president, black attorney general's, we've had attorneys general, we've had black secretary of state's so i just reject the cultural argument and with the russians, you get it all the time. they just like colonialists but the story is it's the story of the failure of institutions to take hold under in norma's pressure. if you think about the collapse of the soviet union and the kind of rapid effort to build capitalism, 50 percent of the russian population fell into poverty overnight. the country broke apart overnight. and unfortunately, their first president who i admired for a lot of reasons but in some strengthening the institution and working through them, he starts to go
by degrees. he weakens the legislature, weakens the independent judiciary. that presidency, really strong presidency and russia around boris yeltsin is one thing but when vladimir putin becomes president, that same strong presidency is now in the hands of somebody with authoritarian instincts so the russian failure is a story of the importance of institutions. if you can't depend on a single person you have to depend on the instrumentation. >> you don't see prudent as a jeffersonian democrat. >> no, i don't think you would confusing, i know him pretty well. >> does he speak english? >> he was learning english from the time we came into office and his english is now i understand passable but i would chitchat with him in russian but he liked me at the beginning i think because i was a russian it but i remember once sitting with him, toward the end of my
time as secretary and he said, connie, you know us. russia has only been great when it's ruled by great men, like peter the great and alexander ii. you want to say and do you mean vladimir the great but your secretary of state, you can't do that, that would be rude and in fact that's what he is, vacancies reuniting the russian people in greatness and i think that instinct has led him to destroy all of the kind of intricacies on the presidency, the independent judiciary, free press and civil society you think the chance of his voluntary these stepping down as strong? >> i think so although the particular regimes, they are all, you don't know unless something happens because we have to remember that the only district that vladimir putin did not win in the fraudulent election of 2012 was moscow. that tells you something
about how he's viewed in the city. >> let's talk about another country that joins russia, poland. poland democracy did break out in poland and what do you think of the state of democracy is in poland today? >> :is a story that we should try to emulate at its beginning but it's the story of having institutions and what i call the democratic opening. solidarity and nationwide labor unions under left walesa had actually been underground from the declaration of martial law beginning in the 1980s. it had been sustained by the fact and built a tree. the afl-cio was the labor unions and ronald reagan. >> kind of an interesting story. now when gorbachev comes to power and eastern europe breaks free, poland already
had that infrastructure in place of the democratic transition was easier in poland and almost anyplace else but now that we are seeing in poland is that it's still a young democracy. it has for the first time a very strong centralized executive. and we're starting to see a sort of erosion of the independence of the judiciary , independence of the press and people are fighting back. society is mobilized, so media against these groups of what's called the law and justice party and the president, he actually ended up having to veto a law that he had sponsored that would have gone a long way to undoing the judiciary so don't count out a list democracy yet. >> further south, ukraine. ukraine started with democracy, what would you say the state of democracy is in
ukraine? >> in many ways it kind of a sad situation because if you are trying to build a democracy with a very assertive and aggressive neighbor that is in the process of taking your territory in making the eastern half of your country unstable, it's kind of hard for those democracies but they made some progress. the poroshenko was the president now has launched an anticorruption campaign, one of the great checks on democracy, one of the great challenges is anticorruption and they made some great moves. there are some young people there in the legislature that are determined to deliver democracy and it's a vibrant society in its western part. a problem for the ukraine is that the trouble eastern ukraine and you don't read much about them in the newspaper but people are dying every day in eastern ukraine as the russian separatists are supported by the russian forces.
causing all kinds of problems so ukrainian democracy is always kind of on a nice ad but it's not an authoritarian regime either and that's something to celebrate. >> but as long as putin is president, you don't see eastern ukraine going back to the ukraine. >> criteria, i think is going to be hard but here's one point i'd like to make. one of the reasons i wanted to say also was to talk about the role of america play in supporting democracy. we had a tendency to take some responsibility for this to associate democracy with what happened in iraq and afghanistan. >> also is extremely stressful situations where we had a security problem and later on tried to build democracy. but most of the time, democracy is much simpler and much more complex. if you think about the way that we dealt with the baltic states, the 45 years that
they were under soviet application, when i was the special assistant i had a stamp. and it said the united states does not recognize the corporations of baltic states and the soviet union and whatever you mentioned lithuania, estonia, you fancy the effects. we can do anything about the fact that the soviets hadn't forcibly incorporated the baltic states but we did on principle, in crimea we had to stand for the principles even if we can't do anything about it. with had to stand for the principle that they asked crimea that was untenable. >> you mentioned iraq and afghanistan and i want to talk about the middle east and democracy but before we do, where were you on 9/11? >> i was national security advisor on 9/11 and if you were in a position of authority, every day after september 12. i was at my desk, young my young assistant that a plane had the world trade center
and i said that's a strange accident. i called and you would remember he was in florida and an education event and i got him on the phone and he said keep me informed, a few minutes later i was having my meeting and somebody had to end up putting a plane and set a second one had hit the trade center and now we knew it was a terrorist attack so i went into the situation trying to reach the principles,: powell was in peru at a meeting of the organization of american states. george tenet, the cia director had gone already to the bunker and they said we can't reach rumsfeld. his phone is ringing and ringing, we looked at him and said a plane had hit the pentagon. and at that time they said you've got to get to a bunker because planes are flying into buildings all over washington dc. the secret service once to escort you, they don't actually escort you. they kind of pick you up and they carry you so i remember
i kind of levitated toward the bunker saying wait a minute, i have to make phone calls. i called my aunt and uncle in birmingham. they would've made their way and i told them you can't come back here and i said the rest of the day was dealing with the reality that american security would never be the same. >> so on afghanistan that's been in the news lately. it's the longest war, 16 years. you see any solutions in the near term? >> i'm worried about afghanistan. i have always said that what the point that we have to get to sometimes in afghanistan is that the afghans were able to prevent the taliban from an existential threat against the afghan government. i've always thought that you were going to have remnants of the taliban with a hit and run terrorist here and there in the country but as we've been able to carry out bolder attacks both to the capitals,
even in the international zone, you have to wonder how well we are doing in getting to a place of stability so i think the decision by the president and by secretary maddox to try and really stabilize the military situation is one that i support. but eventually, there's going to have to be a political solution in afghanistan and i suspect that's going to have to involve pakistan which is a really but big part of this problem because the pakistanis are really convinced that a stable afghanistan is in their interests and they got to be made to help stabilize that territory and you know, where talking about democracy and look, afghanistan was the fifth poorest country in the world during the 9/11. >> but it is at least a place now where girls can go to school in large numbers. it is a place now where women are not beaten in a soccer
stadium that was given to the taliban by the un. >> is a place where men are not last because they don't wear beards. >> it's not a place that harbors terrorists so i think we had to achieve this in afghanistan but yes. >> democracy in iraq. do you think we've made progress they are? >> what do you think went wrong after the invasion of iraq that didn'tgo the way you thought it would? >> i think a lot about the iraqi case because i lay out several different scenarios . what the circumstances are when the democratic openings,. the best case is: where you've got institutions in place or columbia where you have institutions that were weak but were there. so the war situation is when you have a cult of personality, tyrannical leaders where everything had been at the service of that leader, and so there were
effectively no institutions to think of or we thought underneath him. and so the distance between people and their desire now that they've overthrown the dictator or we've overthrown the dictator and the institutions that could channel all those passions, there's a great system and you don't have much time. i relate in the book that we made a lot of mistakes. we undervalued the potential for the tribe, the sunni tribes to play an important role. we didn't understand the tribes. when we got back with the serbs in 2007, the tribes were a big part of the reason we were able to defeat al qaeda in iraq. i do think we didn't fully understand the implications of the disbanding of the army which wasn't supposed to take place, by the way and i
describe that in the book so in the fog of war a lot happens but one thing i want people to understand about iraq is that we could not go to iraq to bring democracy, that's the urban legend. i was in those meetings, we went to iraq because we thought the security problem and a saddam hussein who had rebuilt, i would never have said to the president of the united states, use american military force to bring democracy to iraq or afghanistan. but once you overthrown a dictator, you have to have a view about what comes after. and the president in his view believed we had to give the iraqi people a chance to build their democracy. a lot of bloodshed, a lot of lives were lost. that will never be able to bring those people back. i will say that if the iraqis now are on the verge of defeating isis. you're beginning to see that the iraqis do have some
democratic institutions. they have a prime minister who is accountable to them. there are people protesting and they are not shot in the streets. you don't have masquerades of the kind that cut saddam hussein put people in. iraqi big challenge is going to be in the country altogether with the kurds who for a long time have wanted to be an independent people. that's the big challenge but they do have some institutions that i think can help them. >> the arab spring was supposed to produce democracy through the middle east, talk about syria. syria doesn't seem to be having democracy anytime soon. >> i would rather be iraqi than syrian. the syrians, assad, it's going to be hard to get him out of power because the iranians want him out of power. if he's going to go going to have to be the russians making a decision that he goes. the rest of the middle east, i'm not ready to give up on the middle east finding its
way toward a democratic institution. >> we get very impatient with people when they are trying to find their way to democracy and we say either they just don't get it or we look at all those muslim brotherhood's and we forget as we've talked about david, our own history of democratization is a pretty long and tough one. so i would say use the polish example. try to plant some seed for democracy. >> there are entrepreneurs who are people on whom you might build sort of democracy, there are civil society groups, women's groups, tunisia is an example of where a national labor union and women's civil society groups have actually managed to bring about something that looks like on nascent democracy also i'm not ready to give up on the middle east yet. >> after mubarak has there been a movement for democracy in egypt? >> in egypt, the egyptian military rulers took an awful
lot like egyptian rulers have looked for a while, mubarak, but underneath again, there are civil society groups that we are reporting to try to help.what happens in the middle east is that at the moment when you have a chance for a democratic opening, the strongest institutions are often the radical islamists. why is that? >> it's because leaders like mubarak destroyed the foundation of more liberal institutions and parties, people like simon moore and others who might have had a foundation of democracy but they didn't destroy the radical islamists who organized radical process so they were the best organized when elections gain. we have to help more liberal
laces the organized when opportunity comes. >> in the middle east before we go to the far east, the middle east, israel, theirs under a one state solution or a two state solution. if you have a one state solution and you can really have democracy. >> i think for israel to remain a democratic jewish faith, it has to have a democratic state. i'm a believer in the two state solution and eventually they're going to have to get there. >> talk about the gulf states, the gulf cooperation council, those countries. you don't think that democracy will break out there or should? >> there is a monarchy and they have varying degrees of liberalism toward places like women's rights and varying degrees of liberalism toward the marriage of religion and politics. that some interesting things are happening there, even in a place like saudi arabia, arabia as really basically now a generation shift and most of, most of a majority
of the people studying in university in saudi arabia and their great university, are women. >> now we're going to have an interesting kind of test here. can you educate women at this level and still tell them they can't drive? >> we will find out. >> let's go to the far east for a moment. and you book your point out that authoritarian governments while not perfectly jeffersonian democracies and have some good democratics, it can have some good messages for the people and you site for example singapore. what do you admire about singapore. >> singapore, first of all is very small. what i really say is that when people say authoritarian sometimes they have to advantages. >> china, the largest country in the world and singapore, one of the smallest. for was fortunate.it had a
wide wise leader. >> it was a time when democratic values were not very obvious in most of asia and he turned out to be a truly wise, benign leader. but the problem with that theory is then you better hope that the next one is benign and then that his son is benign and his son after him is benign because you don't always get lucky. the singaporeans got lucky and we have a tendency to hold democracy to higher standards than we do authoritarian's. so there are all kinds of really bad authoritarian leaders, just read venezuela. >> the idea that authoritarians are somehow better becausethey deliver to their people , the chinese have delivered although that particular model is running out of steam now. look forward to delivering but there are so many authoritarian that didn't deliver that we sometimes
hold democracy to a higher standard. >> china, you don't expect that jeffersonian democracy will break out there anytime soon. >> i don't expect jeffersonian democracy to break out but i will tell you something about china, china is also about to have an interesting test. >> china's economy grew rapidly. there's 500 million people out of poverty, it's a miracle but they did it with heavy exports led economy, being the low cost of labor provider in the international system. they did it with a kind of command economy, a lot of state owned enterprises. they can't get growth out of that model any longer. now they're having to free markets. when you free up market forces, there's a kind of mismatch between those market forces and top-down authoritarian political system. so the question is how long is it going to be before you have a clash of those. just as an example, china had 186,000 rights over the last
couple years, 186,000 reported rights not because somebody was outspoken for democracy but because a peasant would find that a party leader and the developer would feed their land, they had those horses so they would go right. even chinese leaders will say we need independent courts so that doesn't happen. how long is it before independent forecourts become an independent judiciary? now you're starting to get in a difference in the institutional landscape and i'll tell you one other story, i gave a lecture at civil law university, their great university, they affectionately call it their harvard and stanford and i wanted to give a talk that was not about us china relations and i decided to give the same talk to stanford students, find your passion, do something hard, etc. the question blew me away. >> the questions were well,
i'm an engineer, why do i need to take literacy? what do you do if your parents don't like the majors that you've chosen. >> i thought these are chinese kids? they're questioning in this way? how long is it before questioning your parents choice of your major becomes questioning your government? so i think there are a lot of choices in china that may lead at least liberalization if not to democracy. >> i can't help but ask you about another place where i don't expect jeffersonian democracy to breakout which is north korea. >> . >> that's a ways away. >> you were advising a president today, current president or any president today, who wouldyou , what would you tell him to do about north korea? >> this is the most dangerous situation that we face. when i was secretary we tried to negotiate with kim jong il. who the nuclear rise the
country, we made some progress but ultimately they wouldn't live up to their agreement to walk out. >> ever since they've been on a rapid course of improving their bond design, and as harvesting fuel, and increasing their range of their systems. >> no american president can tolerate a somewhat unhinged north korean leader because if he's not crazy if he is directed, this is somebody who reached asia, kill his half-brother who was under chinese protection. i don't think any american president can tolerate that leader with the capacity to reach the united states. >> and what the administration is trying to do and i support what they are trying to do is their painting of the actor for the chinese. that's the only country with any real leverage on the north koreans. the chinese have never really
been willing to use their leverage fully because they were able to, the regime could collapse. then they have unstable orders and they would have the refugees but what the administration is saying to them is your choice now is either we do something about the north korean problem or you do something. and hopefully that will get through the chinese because the military solutions here are not very good. >> if a missile went and came near guam, would you think we would still have to wait for the chinese to do something? >> i think at some point the american president and i'm not inside so i don't know what he's being told about how long he has but at some point, in blom and already, we are firing missiles over japan, we're getting close to a dcnouement, getting close to the point where we have to make a decision. i will note that when kim jong un said he was going to attack guam, the chinese must have talked to him because within a few days they said
no so we do have the chinese attention, it's just a question of what they want to do. >> your book cover retweets, one is africa and you talk about. and there's an election going on now. we ask you about south africa. you've met with mandela, you knew mandela. why do you think democracy has worked as well after mandela as it was? >> mandela was a remarkable man, i've never met anybody who i was more inspired by. the fact that he said to bush when president bush asked him he said why didn't you run for another term? i wanted my african brothers to know i was willing to step down from office and on the continent that had so many presidents, this is an important statement. but it's again a story of institutions. it was essentially a single party system under the african national congress. somehow mandela's great authority was never
transferred into institutions which could then survive in and they had considerable trouble sense. but the institutions are still there. it's just that it's been hard to deliver. in the first presidents, the united states was lucky that george washington didn't want to be king. i don't know how many of you have seen hamilton, it's a great show. but it becomes very clear that we got lucky with the particular combination of founding fathers that we had and many places haven't been that fortunate. >> you write about latin america and you talk about columbia, how democracy has made progress and the others of the 60s and 70s are gone. what happened to venezuela. >> what happened to venezuela? you can get a bad leader who doesn't get checked by those around him with considerable wealth.
the oil crisis is real and when i was secretary of state, the president was $147 a barrel but it empowered people who tried to buy elections across latin america and he single-handedly step-by-step destroyed all of the israeli really important institutions. >> he was succeeded by somebody who chavez was out charmed and chavez will without his street smarts and madero has taken the country down. i hope that this is one where the organization of america needs to be all over maduro to do something. it's that you see a middle income country where people can't find food. >> we have had an african-american president but we have never had a female president we have never had an african-american female
and then my other favorite line, i want my first job to be meaningful. and i say comes your first job is not going to be meaningful. it's going to be your first job. what will be meaningful is someone will pay you to do it for the first time.rst time [applause] >> so i have my work cut out fr me. >> if you don't want to run for office, suppose him president came along again said he did a great job as suggested, why don't you do it again? >> you should never try to go home again. i had an amazing alignment of the stars. i had a president who would tell leaders, we grew up together he would say because we started out when he was just leaving texas and he trusted me and i'd mired him. what a i have great admiration for people in public service. i don't think we admire enough to public service.
it's hard work. [applause] i try to tell my students don't be cynical about public service. i served as secretary of state for foreign service in the civil service and people who work in the state department not to mention the more than 30,000 foreigners whose deft or embassies around the world are some of the most dedicated people you'll ever find. i love to paint the nation's diplomatic there was nothing like getting off the plane that said united states of america and thinking what can i do to represent this great country but i'm done. [laughter] >> when he stepped down as secretary of state you handed the reins over to another woman, hillary clinton. what was it like one female secretary of state handing the reins over to another female.
>> you know so madeleine myself and hillary had been 60 years since there had been a white male secretary of state. we were saying you know i don't know there's going to be a little affirmative action here and see what happens. it was great and it's a nice little club, the secretaries of state. george shultz who is 97 years old. [applause] and is one of my great mentors. i will tell you a little story. he had a birthday party purge henry kissinger who turned 94 and the two of them did 20 minutes walk round the world, no notes. i don't know perthshire hoping there was something in the water at the state department. >> as i remember george shultz said something