tv David Grann Killers of the Flower Moon CSPAN October 9, 2017 11:10am-12:00pm EDT
corbett all. this year's national book award will be announced on november 15 in new york city. one of this year's finalist for nonfiction is new yorker staff writer david grann who in his book killers of the flower moon reports on the murders of members of the osage indians station in oklahoma in the 1920s. his talk heirs next on the tv. [background noises] >> oh wow. good evening everyone. i'm katie, director of the leader services. welcome to the kansas city public library. thank you for your patience and flexibility. thank you rainy day books for setting records to get david
grann here. these were circumstances out of everyone's control. his plane was delayed. you may insert your own early joke here. tonight david grann will talk about his book, 28, the story of the unspeakable historical crime of greed, fear, anger and racial cleansing. it is part crime thriller them apart political history and this is a book that will generate conversation long after david catches his next plane. it is easy to read this book because david tells the story in a riveting detail rich, suspenseful way. it is hard to read this book because it is true and devastating and maddening. david grann is a magnificent storyteller, staff writer for the new yorker and is written
for "the new york times" magazine on the atlantic, washington post, wall street journal, new republic and hollywood. his previous award-winning book the lost city of the is in movie theaters right now and if you can't take their word or mine, then how about us supreme court justice steven breyer. justice breyer cited one of david's pieces in one of his opinions. please welcome david grann. [applause] >> thank you all, truly. my first book and i don't know if you're familiar with it is the lost city of the about an explorer who trekked through the amazon searching for an ancient civilization and i did something foolish to follow in the steps of finding that lincoln city and after leaving nashua at
9:00 a.m. this morning to get to kansas is a lot easier to track through the jungle than it is to fly today. but i did come. [laughter] to see you all waiting here is amazing. thank you. i am here to talk about my new book killers of the flower moon, the osage indians murder in the birth of the fbi. the project began more than five years ago when i made a visit to the osage indians nation in oklahoma and i visited the osage indians nation and saw a panoramic photograph and this is a fraction of it with an enormous picture. it went all across the wall and you can see the portrait on the title page of the book. it was taken in 1924 in seems innocent and it shows them
members of the osage nation gathered with white settlers but a portion had been cut out and it looked like scissors had been taken to. i asked the museum director was waiting for the first time and later she would become a friend what had happened to that missing portrait. she said it contained a figure so frightening that she decided to remove it. she then pointed to the missing panel and said the devil was standing right there. the book grew out of trying to understand that figure was and the english in history he embodied and it led me to what i would come to realize is one the most sinister crimes in american history, one that i believe tells much larger story about this country. now, the crimes took place in the beginning of the 20th century, early part of the 20th century. to understand them you need to see though that the osage indians were millionaires because of oil deposits under the land in oklahoma.
to extract the oil prospectors had to pay the osage for leases in royalties. initially, around 1908, 1910 there were about 2000 osage on the tribal role and they would receive a check for more than hundred dollars and a few years later that amount grew every few months to a thousand and a few more years and accumulated into the millions of dollars as more oil was taxed just to give you some sense. in 1923 in that year alone there were 2000 osage collectively received what would be were today more than $400 million. a reporter at the times said he went out to osage territory and said low in behold, reporter from new york, the indian is starving to death enjoys a steady influence that turns bankers green with envy. the osage had become the wealthiest people for capital in every world. the public because of prejudice
in envy became transfixed by the wealth which played these long-standing bureaucrats that could be traced all the way back to the first contact with whites, the originals in which the country was formed. reporters would go out to osage territory and tantalize the readers about stories of the quote unquote red millionaires with their terra-cotta mansions and their chauffeured cars and their servants, many of were white. it was said at the time one american might own a car each osage owns 11 of them. this picture is very revealing because it shows traditional osage mother and daughters dressed in the 1920s as flappers. this is even more remarkable which is i found recently this old footage that was shot in the 1920s. it was taken by an osage credit early moving motion picture
camera and it was found by a descendent in a store and here you could see a snippet of it but it will give you a sense of what these towns look like in the 1920s. the tangled history of how the osage had gotten a hold of this oil rich land goes all the way back to the 17th century with the osage controlled much of the central part of the country, an area that stretched from what is now kansas and missouri all the way to the edge of the rockies. president thomas jefferson referred to the osage in 1803 as the great nation and in the following year he met with a delegation of osage chief whom he described as the finest men he had seen and he promised to assure the osage that they would know the us government would
know them as friends and benefactors but within a few years he began to drive them off their land and within a few decades the osage were forced to see more than 100 million acres of their ancestral land. they were eventually confined to reservation and in the 1860s they were once more under siege by white settlers and among those settlers was none other than the family of laura inglis wilder. it was thought that she -- it's she wrote little house on the prairie which is loosely based on her family. in the novel, herm laura asked her mom why she didn't like them and her mom replies i just don't like them and don't lick your fingers. laura asks why we came to this country who don't like them. one evening laura father explained to her that the government will soon make the
osage move away and that is why we are here, laura. white people will settle all this country and we get the best land because we get here first and take our pick. in fact, many squatters began to seize the land by force, and what the us government official said of the time that the questionable suggest itself which of these people are the savages. in the 1870s the osage agreed to sell their land in kansas and they searched for a homeland and it was then that this osage chief stood up at the tribal council meeting and a record of a statement still exists to this day and he said we should move to this territory and what was then indian territory and would later become oklahoma, state of oklahoma and he said because that land was rocky and infertile, you couldn't farm on it and the white man would finally leave us alone.
even though this land was about the size of delaware, some deemed it worthless and he said this would be a place in which the osage could finally be happy and appeased. the osage actually purchase this land for 70 cents an acre and they had a deed to their own land and they migrated their. the forced migrations by then had taken a tremendous toll on the tribes. there were only a few thousand left and about a third of what the population had been 70 years earlier. now, in 1906 before oklahoma was about to become a state the us government forced upon the osage a combination of its very brutal assimilation campaign that was called the on. not sure if you're familiar with it but it was essentially a policy that was imposed on many
american indian nations at the time and what it was is it would divvy up reservations into parcels of land in each member of the tribe would receive an allotment and the rest of the lands would be open up to white settlers. this is an actual photograph of it and the settlers would race to get to the land and if they got a partial they would put a stake into it and lay claim to that land. many were trampled in the process and a few were shot. the concept of allotment was essentially to end the communal way of life and to turn american indians into private property owners, a situation that coincidently would make it much easier to procure their land. the osage when they were negotiating their terms of allotment had more leverage than
many other american indian nations because they had a deed to their land. they had recently purchased it. one more is there was a race to make oklahoma stage and of the osage was the last tribe in that territory to be allotted and they were also led by one of the greatest chief at the time, a man who spoke seven languages, including latin, [inaudible] in french. they managed to slip into the treaty agreement a provision that at the time seemed rather curious. what it essentially said was we shall maintain control of all the subsurface mineral rights to our lands. now, the osage had some sense that there was at least a little bit of oil under their land but no one thought they were sitting upon a fortune. the osage truly managed this period last rum of this land, around they could not even see.
each member on the osage role of 2000 or so received what they call the head right which is a shear in this collective mineral trust. now, after allotment much of the surface territory quickly disappeared into the hands of [inaudible] and whites but a right cannot be bought or sold but only inherited. the osage painting control over what had become the first underground reservation. before long the oil boom had begun. there was such a demand for osage oil, especially by 1912, 1913 as more deposits are found in soon it was discovered some of the largest deposits in the united states were sitting under their earth. they would hold auctions for leases and so many of the oil barons who you have heard of
like j.p. morgan they first made their wealth in osage territory and they would attend these auctions, frank phillips and his brothers and they would arrive on private railroad cars and this is members of the phillips company arriving on a private trainer was known as the millionaires special and in good weather the auctions were held outside under this stately tree and it could sell for as much as $2 million and it became known as the million dollar bill. as the osage wealth increased many americans began to express because of prejudice alarm and the osage began to be scapegoated for their money. here was the 1920.
of the great gatsby but somehow the osage wealth became a concern and members of the u.s. congress would literally set in these mahogany panel rooms and debates what will be due about the osage money and how can they have all this money and they went so far as to pass legislation requiring many osage to have white guardians. this system was quite and it was racist in every way and it was based on the quantum of osage blood so if you are a full-blooded osage you are suddenly deemed incompetent and given a guardian to oversee your finances and here you can be in osage chief leading a great nation have millions of dollars in your trust and you can have
some local prominent white citizen telling you which car to buy and whether you could get that to face down at the corner store. not only is a system racist but it created one of the largest state federally sanctioned enterprises and as many guardians with direct purchases and they would get kickbacks and skin money and embezzle millions of dollars. this osage chief testified at a hearing for congress and i want to read you what he said because it's working. he said the whites are down in the rough is part of the country came to drive these indians down to where there is a big pile of rock and put them there in the corner. now that the pile of rocks turn out to be millions of dollars he said everyone wants to get in here and get some of that money.
let the osage began to die under mysterious circumstances and nobody was more probably affected than the family of this woman molly burkart. molly is a remarkable woman and she grew up and was born in the 1880s and she grew up in a lodge like the wigwam of one of the osage camps speaking only osage, practicing only osage traditions and she was at the she was forced to be uprooted and placed in a boarding school to learn the white man's ways and she had to suddenly remove her blanket and to speak only english and she was not allowed to speak osage and within a few decades because of the osage oil money she was living in a mansion and she married a white settler from texas and in many ways molly straddled not only to
sentries but to civilizations. now, in may of 1921 molly had a sister named anna brown and that day she came over to molly's house and molly like to entertain and she had a party that day with relatives and friends and her older sister, anna, you can see a picture of her after the house and she was not seen again. she finished. molly looked everywhere for her and she had the family looked everywhere for her and a week later molly was found in this ribbing, a picture that was later taken by an fbi investigator. she had been shot in the back of the head and was dead. it was the first hint that molly's family, not to mention as well as the tribe had become a prime target of a criminal conspiracy. not long after, literally within days, molly's sister, i mean, molly's mother lizzie began to
grow mysteriously sick. you can see a picture of lizzie and her mother in the middle, anna brown is off to the left and that was her older sister and molly is to the right. molly's mother seemed to grow insubstantial each day as if she was withering away. within two months she had stopped breathing and evidence related suggest that she had been poisoned. within a span of two months molly had lost her sister anna and her mother, lizzie. molly had another sister named rita smith and she was so frightened by these death she lived in the countryside with her white husband, and she decided to move closer to town to be closer to molly and she purchased this house here in the moved and thinking they would be safe. one night, very early in the
morning, three in the morning molly heard a loud explosion, frightening she got up and went to the window and she looked down and in the direction of her sister's house and all she could see was an orange ball rising into the sky and it looked as if the sun had burst violently into the night. it was no longer a house there. someone had planted a bomb underneath it, killing molly's sister, her sister's husband and the 18 -year-old maid who left behind to young children. now, molly and many in the osage campaigned for justice to pursue the killers and because of prejudice the white authorities often neglected these crimes because the victims were native americans. one what is more of the things that shocked me was how corrupt much of the justice system was
and how -- many lawmen had very little training and it was often easy if you are powerful to buy off a lawmen. molly and other osage attorney private investigators and private investigators had a much larger prominent role in society back then because they often had to fill this void but the problem with private investigators where they had criminal backgrounds and they were available to the highest bidder. the boundaries between a good man and a bad man were extraordinary and many of the private investigators seem to be concealing evidence rather than unearthing it and while this was going on it wasn't only molly's family that was being systematically targeted, other osage were dying too. it was the champion carryover of
got a call one day and he left this house and when he came back he dropped dead frothing at the mouth. evidence later indicated that he, too, had been poisoned most likely with strychnine and for those of you familiar with agatha christie mysteries you know that strychnine is absolutely awful poison. it causes the whole body to convulse as if with electricity and usefully suffocate while you are conscious until you mercifully die. one of the reasons poisoning was so common back then to kill the osage was because even though scientists knew how to protec dt poison the local allotment wouldn't perform toxicology's so you could simply go to the local drugstore or the grocery store, pick up some form of poison and give it to someone or spike liquor or it was an easy way to kill someone and be undetected.
by 1923 other people who had also trying to catch the killers were also being killed. there was one man, a lawyer started to gather evidence and one day he received a call from an osage was dying of poisoning in oklahoma city and he took the train and told his wife before he left, he had ten children that i have got evidence in this hiding spot and if anything happens, make sure you get it and give it to the authorities. he then went to open the city and met with the osage and gathered evidence and after the osage had died of the poisoning he called local authorities is that i have enough evidence to catch the killers. coming back to osage county, i'm getting on the next train but when the train arrived he wasn't there. he didn't get off and they sent out the bloodhounds looking for him, local boy scout troops in the area that took up the search and he was eventually found, his
body lined up at the railroad tracks and someone had drove from the train. when his wife went to the hiding spot someone had already gotten there and cleaned out all the evidence, as well as the money he had left for her in the ten children were left destitute. many of the children were then raised by osage families. there was another man, an oil man who was a friend of the osage and he went to washington dc to hopefully get federal authorities to investigate these cases, especially given the local corruption and she got to a boarding house in the capital and he checked in and he received a telegram from the associate in oklahoma that said the careful. the oil man carried with him a bible and a pistol and that evening he left the boarding house and was affected and at some point someone grabbed a black sack around his head and
he was found the next morning in a and he had been beaten to death and stabbed more than 20 times. "the washington post" at the time said in a headline that the osage had a long already knew -- a conspiracy to kill which indiaindians. finally, in 1923 after official death toll of more than 24 osage the osage tribal council issued a resolution demanding the federal authorities untainted by corruption to intervene and it was then that it was taken out by a rather spear branch of the justice department one that would certainly not seem obscure on this day in particular. it was then known as the bureau of investigation and was later be renamed the fbi. i think it is somewhat fitting to talk about the bureau because
it's in people's mind and the bureau back then was really a ragtag operation and it had only a smattering of agents and they were not authorized to carry guns and if they wanted to arrest someone they had to get a local lawmen to make the arrest and they had very limited jurisdiction over crimes but they had jurisdiction over american indian reservations and that is why the osage murders became one of the fbi's first major homicide pieces and in 1925 the new boss man j edgar for some and this man tom white to washington and said he needed to see him right away. tom white is a remarkable man and in many ways he is like molly and he reflects and embodied the transformation of the country and was born in a
cavern in texas on the frontier and was from essentially a type of lawmen and his father was a sheriff and grew up and saw people being hung and he became the texas ranger as did many of his brothers and he practiced law riding in a horse with a pearl handled gun when justice was often meted out with the smoking barrel of a gun. by the 1920s when for suddenly summoned him to washington he has to wear a suit and he has to learn to adapt techniques like fingerprinting handwriting analysis become an important part and he had to fire up paperwork that she can't stand and when he gets to the bureau and he doesn't no wife for summoned him but hoover was replacing an [inaudible] the
old-timers like white saw them as boy scouts but they had very little criminal experience and her had kept on the roles a few frontier lawmen like white and they were known as the cowboys and this is actually a picture of j edgar for taking a few months before this is exactly what he looked like. he was only 29 years old when he became director and he was not yet an autocratic or had all the autocratic power that he would have over the next several decades. he was new to his job and he was still insecure about his power and the funny thing about hoover was that he hated taller agents. taller agents hated to be summoned to headquarters because they were afraid that if they were talking might be fired and he kept a dais behind his desk
so it would seem taller. rightly he summoned white and white stood 6'4" and what's more even though he had on his new suit he was defiantly wearing a cowboy hat which violated all new protocol. he was looming over hoover and grann began to turn [inaudible] the result had been completely disastrous. not only had agents failed to make any unrest during that time but they had done an outlaw a guy named blackie thompson out of prison and they assured the state authorities that we have discovered and we will use him as an informant. shortly after he got out of prison he slipped their tail, robbed the bank and killed a police officer. blackie would later meet his own unfortunate fate after he tried to escape from prison and was
gunned down but her, again, hard to believe was insecure about his power back then and he feared a scandal could end his dreams of building a bureaucratic empire. the bureau had just been entangled in the scandal which was another oil corruption scandal involving kickbacks, bribe, cover-up, distractions of evidence and he feared that if there was another scandal he might be ousted and went white gets there he realizes he is not been summoned to be fired or purged but turn eight has been summoned to stake his own tail and needs an experience lawmen to take over the osage case. white realizes giving the danger that the only way to try to crack the case is to put together an undercover team and he recruits several of the old frontier lawmen from the
cowboys, here is a picture of one of them. most interestingly he recruited an american indian agent and at least to my knowledge there was no statistics then but it's fair to say that he was the only american indian agent in hoover bureau at the time. they infiltrated the region and the post as cattlemen and one post as an insurance salesman and according to the record, actually sold insurance policies. [laughter] the investigation had to learn these techniques they had to learn your printing, handwriting analysis and they tracked the evolution of law enforcement and this professionalism with professionalizing of lawn. it had many twists and turns in many ways it was done less as
criminal investigation then espionage case. there were moles in double agents and possibly a triple agent and it was impossible to know who to trust in power and who was conspiring against you and the agents were followed and their reports were leaked and they carried guns even though they were not authorized to because of the danger. i won't reveal all the ins and outs of the investigation because it is more powerful to read about it in context because it is multi- lover and ultimately what the agents do is follow the money. the money leads them to -- they tried to track and see who is profiting from these crimes and in particular who was in it leads them to a prominent white settler and what's more is the settler turned out to be someone
who molly trusted and many of the osage trusted. one of the things that made these kinds of sinister was that that to steal the osage money it involved these deeply translated thoughts that often unfolded over years and involved people pretending to love you, pretending to be intimate with you and all the time plotting and scheming inspiring to kill you and your family members in my own way i could not find a word to quite capture the level of this deception but there is a quote from shakespeare from julius caesar which i think this level of the trail and its from julius caesar was shakespeare writing this where can i find a cavern dark enough to hide it
and smile and affability. after i had visited the osage nation and saw that picture on the wall the museum director had gone down into the basement and retreated an image of the missing panel and she brought it up to show me. they're peering up creepily from the corner was one of the masterminds that prominent settler that euro had arrested. he was the so-called double and it occurred to me that the osage had removed that photograph, not to forget that so many americans had but because they can't forget. now, i just want to say a quick word about the way i structured the story because it's a way that i've never structured one in the past. it is told in three chronicles largely from the point of view of a different individual and
the first chronicle is pulled largely from the perspective of molly burkart. here is a picture before she died and she was a very remarkable woman and even though i don't say explicitly in the book one of the things that really struck me was her courage because she quietly crusaded for justice when people would ignore her and all the while was putting a bull's-eye on her back. over the years i went through many archives trying to learn what her life was like because in so many official accounts she was just a name or a sentence and she had no agency. her perspective had been obliterated from history. one of the documents i found very revealing was that shortly before she died, two years before she died i found a document that she had appealed her incompetency and if my memory serves correctly, the document was from 1934. the government and the legal
system had finally deemed her cognizant. here was this woman two years before she died in 1934 being granted the full-fledged right of a citizen. to be able to control her own fortune and to control her own destiny. the second chronicles told largely from the point of view of tom white and what's interesting about this photo is you can see his transformation. the cowboy was riding on a horse now dressed with fedora in a suit in here you can see turn eight beginning to grow. in the final perspective is turn in the present from my vantage point and from the reporter or historian.
i did this so when i'm filling gaps in the narrative i could show what happened to the osage money today and many of the old boone towns are beginning to be ghost towns and this is a picture i saw of a bar boarded up in a town where anna brown was last seen before she disappeared that night. during the research i tracked down descendents of both the murderers and the victims and one of the most powerful experiences was speaking to these people and one of those descendents was margie burkart was the descendent and granddaughter of molly burkart and she's a lovely woman and she provided me details about her family history and told me what it was like to grow up without aunts and uncles and what it was like to for her father grew up as a child and with this conspiracy it was known as the osage reign of terror and lived in houses with secrets and to
not know if the perpetrators of your loved ones are not and it was speaking to margie that really drove home to me how living in his history is, how it still reverberates to this day and it took me out to the cemetery in great horse where molly grew up and where so many murdered osage, including so many of molly's murdered siblings and relatives are. what is amazing is when you walk through that graveyard or you walk through any graveyard in osage territory and you begin to look at the dates you begin to notice so many deaths during this period and you look at the ages and see how young they are and you begin to realize that this was, in many ways, a genocidal crime and one of the reasons i told the story this way was to show the elusiveness of history especially when documenting a conspiracy when people are covering up the crime. it is often only over time with
more perspective and more evidence that we get a full portrait of what happened in one of the things i try to show in my chronicles based on new archival record and interviews with descendents that was provided to me it was a deeper and darker conspiracy than the bureau ever exposed. i'd be happy to answer any questions if you still have energy. [laughter] thank you. >> folks, we will have the book signing on the stage and since we are running so late we probably have time for about five questions, at most. we'll start with this woman here. >> in the 1950s, there was a movie called the fbi story with
james stewart. in it there there were a segment dealing with mr. stewart assigned to a situation, i think, in oklahoma dealing with the oil situation and the bombings and killings insurance and so forth. with his character based on tom white and have you seen the movie and how accurate is it? >> yes, thank you for that question. i wish i had a clip to show because there is an clip in that fbi story that deals with this case. it's very fictionalized and it's not based on time white. se, it's hoover's vision and hoover was interested and he never give public credit to tom white or the undercover operative on the case and he used the case to cement the mythology his own role and the version told and that is very fictionalized and not very and
not broad outlines but in many ways it is fictionalized. one of the ironies is that the only people i could find that publicly thanked tom white was the osage trial who issued a tribal revolution thinking them by name. >> i haven't read the book yet but i wonder if you go into details about how many of those had rights even after the conspiracy was discovered how those rights were never returned to the family and when i began the story i thought of it very much as for lack of a better word who did it and i thought of it very much as the typical crime story where there is a singular back story has some
accomplices. over time as i did research i began to see this much more as a story about who didn't do it and there were so many people who were getting rich and there were so many people complicit in these crimes and there were doctors administering poison and morticians who are covering up bullet wounds and reporters who did not report what was happening and there were lawmen that were being bought off and they were politicians who were profiting from the crimes and this is a story of a culture of killing and it is much more frightening concept to think that the darkness might lurk not in just one person's heart but in so many seemingly ordinary people. to your question which is many had rights were stolen and a lot of wealth was stolen and never recovered in many of the perpetrators were able to escape justice. >> mr. graham, thank you for a
wonderful presentation. i have one question. it may be a bit off base but in 1921 there was the destruction of black wall street outside of tulsa and what was going on during oklahoma during that time? >> yeah, the question is about another varying unknown or under recorded story are the the race riots which is what he is referring to and took place in 1981, one of the worst race riots in the country. the ku klux klan had a very large presence in oklahoma and other states as well. when you read the documents and the prejudice was not unique to oklahoma and when you read even the congressional hearing debating what to do with the osage wealth you get a sense of just how widespread the
prejudice was. there were very fragile legal institutions at that time and i don't want to politicize the book in a sense to relate it today but one of the things is that the country is incredibly lawless in our legal institutions were very fragile and we spend if there is a central thing i took away from this book it was how important it is that we are a country of laws where there is an impartial judicial system and that the powerful can tilt the scales of justice is something that when you read what happened back then whether it was the postal race riots or the osage murder it drives at home and something not to be taken for granted. >> i'm a member of the osage tribe and i'm just curious if we can have a show of hands of maybe how many are in here are
osage. >> it has been wonderful that in every event i've been to -- [applause] there have been a great osage turnout and it's really been amazing. in fact, i spent many days very recently in the osage nation with margie and so many of the osage presenting the book to them and for me it was a rewarding experience and helped me so much along the way and i gave an event and pulled the of margie came to the event and other descendents stood up and expressed remorse and gave margie a hug and you got a sense again of how this history still reverberating and why it is something we need to reckon wi with.
what is amazing is in these towns you have descendents from the murderer and the victim still living side-by-side with their fates intertwined and it is still very much the story of america. these last two i think. >> i hope you don't want to give too much away about your book but the man who is the central villain of the story is -- [inaudible] what was the rest of his life like and also, these killings and was there another sort of organizing figure or person who is orchestrating this? once your central bill and was neutralized in the killing stop or was there more killing or was there another person behind it? >> the first question was what happened to the double and one of the stories was not just capturing them but even bigger
challenge was bringing them to justice because it gets to that earlier question about what was going on and prejudice was so widespread that the real questions were about whether 12 white male jurors would convict a white man for killing a native american. what's more, you could buy jurors, you could prep the justice system that became a real challenge. he eventually did serve two decades and he was paroled early. he should have died in prison, at least the osage believed he was able to pull in one last political favor. the conspiracy in many ways was that while this person was responsible for many deaths there were killings going on in separate families and often it would be one person from the complicity team and no one stopped it and people knew about
it this was a story there were many willing executioners. i think it's almost often easier to think of a central to figures who are pulling all the strings but really what happened in this case was that many seeking of the ordinary people for perpetrating these crimes were a single crime and they perpetrated another single crime and collectively than what you got was a mass killing. >> was he a pariah after he was paroled? >> yes, very much so. very much so. he was never to come back to osage county but he did once. thank you all for coming and i thank you all for waiting. thank you so much. [applause]
[background noises] >> each year since 1950 the national book foundation has collected what they consider to be the best books in poetry, young people's literature, fiction and nonfiction. the winners of this year's national book award will be announced on november 15 in new york city. next on book tv, you will hear from one of this year's finalist for not fiction. duke university history professor nancy mclean in her book democracy in chains she examines the impact that the late nobel prize-winning economist james buchanan has had on the political right.