tv After Words Ronald Kessler The Trump White House CSPAN May 28, 2018 6:04pm-7:11pm EDT
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about their latest work. >> your new book, you say president trump bravado, exaggeration and controversial comments. rather than being haphazard and aminmeans to the end and 80% ofe time staff says he has a plan he's fixed with but 20% he wakes up and goes a whole different direction. talk about donald trump, the dealmaker. >> he's like a boxer. he's bobbing and waving and punching, it's all an act. i interviewed his top aide for 26 years when she joined the organization are only seven other employees and she knew him better than anybody on the social side and she said there are two doldrums. one is the one you see on tv who makes these outrageous comments
to get attention for his brand and even if it creates negative publicity, he still becomes the center of attention every day in conversation and for the media, but then as the other donald trump, the one the insiders know who is just the opposite. he's thoughtful, he listens, is very careful about making decisions. his senate chamber of commerce called for a boycott of his properties over the remarks on the border of mexico. a month or two later the head met with donald and he emerged and said he was thoughtful, he listened, i was so surprised. that sums up the difference. >> you say in your book, this is a fascinating read by the way, that sometimes he's generous and supportive and as he describes and listens well and other times he's very angry and abusive staff. >> he does does have these
tirades when he was at mara largo martha stewart showed up one day and she asked if she could take it to her and they said sure will set it up for 3:00 o'clock the next day. donald trump came in and said go take care of her. later in the day tony went to see if he needed anything in his private quarters and he just blew up at him, screaming at him. you dumb, you should've scheduled it for different time. he was just out of control. at that moment melania trump walked in and said to donald, i don't think you should be talking to tony in that tone. that gives you a clue about the relationship that she will express her views. he does listen. the next day he handed $2000.20
bills as his apology. on one hand he flew off the handle and on the other hand he won't hold a grudge. that's just a little snippet of the relationship. monica trump, one of the new items in the book is that she is really powerful sitting on meetings, shall offer her views, come up with a new strategy and on the record people say her judgment is impeccable. that's the one thing i'd agree on, she is a class act. >> i found that chapter fascinating. i was really glad that you put that down for more people to absorb. you also talk that you went back in that short chapter two when she appeared on howard stern
program and talked about wild sex everyday and you talked about donald trump's quote about her proportion and her boobs. why did you put all of that on one chapter if you're trying to say that she's credible like that? >> furthermore it sells books and i think everyone appreciates millennia's appearance and i've seen her in a bikini at the pool that mara largo and she looks even more gorgeous in person. are, also, when you see them together you realize it's a marriage that's going to last. they're very involved with discussions. they laugh and tease with each other. i recently saw them the night before new year's eve, the party
we went to, my wife pam and i who is a former washington post reporter and they were just having a very impassioned discussion and a wonderful time with the each other. that marriage is going to last. >> that's great. with the washington post back when watergate was the hot topic, talk about your trajectory of your career writing 21 books, what do you think of the mainstream media and what to think about book writing? >> i'm having a ball in books. i was at the washington post for many years. i was at the wall street journal before that. i started writing books and i just love exploring things secretive whether it's the cia, the fbi that are secretive and
powerful and important. i did a book on palm beach, that's how i first met trump. i had a drink more champagne and go to more parties and trump and my wife and pam and i flew down to mara largo and on the way down, he. [inaudible] some clubs in palm beach do not admit blacks and jews and he was proud that his club dead. he wants to be loved and he enjoys sticking it to whoever might be in his way. that is the essence of one donald trump. people see him on tv and they think they know everything about him. they know very little. this book reveals details that have never come out about him.
whether it's hairspray or why he made decisions about hiring or not hiring people like giuliani and bolton, he thought he was too hawkish on the first goal round, but he doesn't like people to know he hands out hundred dollar bills to strangers and workmen as tips. when i asked him about that in an interview he says he has given a rare gift for a book. this took place the night before new year's eve. i asked him about the hundred dollar bills. he said who told you that. he doesn't want that out. he wants to have this tough guy image in any personal detail like that that might show he's a very compassionate guy, he doesn't want that out, but it's in this book. >> wow. talk about your interview with
the president. it seems like from the book there might be more questions. what are you most glad you asked about and what you wish you had asked. >> there's always the questions you wished you would have asked. the major points are in the book, whether it was russia collusion or what he thanks about muller or the economy, the improvements. i said in the book that he would be seen as one of the greatest american presidents just like reagan. he boosted the economy and same with trump. the accomplishment are clear if you look at them without bias. on the economy, the lowest unemployment rate in history,
the stock market, and on the foreign foreign affairs side and addressing isis and about to meet with the north korean leader and going after radical islamic ideology. just remarkable for any president, but certainly for the first year. at the same time, he has all these clerks and strange, bizarre tweets that makes everyone cringe, every supporter cringes at some of these remarks that he makes. >> unlike many presidents we've had. you love him and you known him for so long. talk about writing a book for men you know as a friend and who is the president and you're an independent journalist with your
own credibility. how do you balance that question. >> i'm going to be a journalist first as i always have been, and i don't care what he thanks. that's the only way to pursue a book honestly. anyone who reads the book sees that. there are these juicy tidbits but overall it's a book about trump that tells the truth. it goes in a chapter called the dishonest media. it's not biased. in one case the new york times had a story. [inaudible] he asked her to change out of her clothes. wow. the headline was crossing the line with women. turns out she was invited to a pool party at the last minute and she didn't have time to go
back and change into a bathing suit so she went to the party. donald took a liking to her and offered to show her around and offered her a bathing suit. so she went in the bathroom and put on a bikini came out and started going out with him for quite a few months, but guess where the fact that they went out together was in that story? the 16th paragraph. the story was pretrade as a demeaning encounter. she said he was a gentleman. to me it's like robbing a bank. it's so dishonest. i was in washington during k and i would've been fired if i had done something like that. i provide specific examples
about the collusion allegations or any other issue. on inclusion, the washington post iran a story last year which loaded e-mails that had been turned over by the white house and congressional committees among the various campaign. [inaudible] it was a campaign aide that was trying to get them to go to russia and meet with russian leadership. the e-mail said no, were not going to do this. he said no one on the campaign had anything to do with russian. >> i had never read that. have you seen that anywhere. >> it's ignored by the russian probe and even the washington post story at a headline that
trump had tried to get aids to go to russia and the real story is trump didn't want have anything to do with russia. that's the bottom line in the whole collusion story. >> was talk about the media. there's parts of the books that have no bounds for narratives on donald trump, it's as if they think he could do no wrong, but for donald trump he can do no right. what's your sense of what's driving this in the mainstream media that you are part of. >> first of all, there's a bias against republicans in general. reagan was perpetrated as stupid or dangerous and same thing with trump. he stupid and dangerous according to the media. if they feel they did they'd be
ostracized by their colleagues. among themselves they laugh at him, they mocked him, that is the overriding theme. many people just can't think independently and in fact that's one reason, i want to be told how to think or what to believe. i wanted to get firsthand what actually happened. that's the way i'm operated. i don't have blinders on. i like to penetrate secrets and that's what i've done in this book with all these details about the real donald. >> it's excellent. it's really a fun read. explain what happened with paul ryan and chris christie during
the "access hollywood" important weekend for the campaign. what did they do and was there any repercussions from what they did later? >> people know that previous went to a debate and supported trump. >> what did he say? >> he said you can get out of the race or lose in a huge landslide. >> but he was made chief of staff? >> at the same time he never forgave him for saying that which is unfortunate. he presided over so many of these successes including the deregulation realizing they can expand and hire more workers and be on constricted. a lot of other achievements that
occurred under him. at one point the "access hollywood" tape, hillary said it shows trump is a. [inaudible] but what he is saying in the tape is women are after me and he takes advantage of it. when you're a star they want you to do that. it's not nonconsensual activity. it's consensual activity that he describes. >> while. >> it wasn't anything that has happened in politics in my lifetime or your lifetime so you saw something that doesn't usually happen. usually paul ryan acted that way. what is it that they didn't
understand about the trump voter and the trump base regarding donald trump. >> i think he didn't understand that it's very hard for people in certain circles on the east and the west to understand the way the average voter thanks. my home contractor, working class person said to me, i don't care what he says, i just care about what he does and i think that sums up the way people in the working-class think. they have to be judged by results. if a carpenter puts a nail into a strut and it's crooked, he could be fired. i hired professor can spout off
about anything and they're not hold accountable. these people understand results and that's we see with donald trump. >> i see your point. that was great in your book. let's talk about palm beach. it was alien to me, but you write that behind the hedges, the game that palm beach plays, their scams, murders, jealousy, bigotry and occasionally generosity to make the tv shows look like nursery tales. talk about how donald trump came in tomorrow largo and his whole personality, how he took that place. >> this is typical. he'll go around asking people opinions whether there chamber maids are secret services, he has his advisors but he also has a wide canvas of people who give
him opinions as well as about 12 friends who he consults. i name them in the book. most of them are billionaires, but that's the way he works. and i was at my largo recently with him, he asked me what i thought about is really settlements. i know about as much about the middle east as he knows about. [inaudible] but i still gave him my opinion. he bought it at a bargain price. at first he used it as his home, but then he decided to turn it into a club. that was the idea of his lawyer and pal in florida to his jewi jewish. now it's worth $700 million.
his second wife was against turning it into a club. she just wanted it for himself but he went ahead with it. she said he should have a spa so he created a spot at mar largo. he says it's the closest thing to paradise will ever get to. it is simply unbelievable. it overlooks both sides of the island which is only about a half-mile wide at the widest point. this culture is unique. it's the richest place in the world. it has these traditions they spent a lot of time at charities developing these and in the end they don't actually produce that much money. one club member was married to a
very wealthy real estate guy from italy and eventually he died and left her about $300 million. she stored his body at a local funeral home for 40 days because she wanted to enjoy the season and i want to enjoy myself and go to the parties and party on the yacht and in fact she said she's going to do the same thing for her second husband if he dies as well. this is palm beach. >> wow. i don't think many spouses would go for that, but maybe in palm beach. it's incredible. talk about the flag that he had
a battle with palm beach people down there. >> donald directed this huge huge flag in the town said this is against zoning regulations. he said it was a free-speech issue. he sued the town. eventually they settled and he agreed to move the flagpole further away from the street to reduce the length of the flagpole because he erected it on a mound that his work crew developed so in the end it was just as high as it was before. this is typical donald trump. has he says, he always wins. not quite, but he usually does. the way he's been able to get
the club approved by the town is sort of typical of how he operates. on one hand his lawyer paul sent copies of agreements to the town council members trying to turn this into a club and said they're all bigots and that's why they're against turning this into a club. at the same time he sued the town and invited these town council members to parties at mar largo's. he also played golf with them in tennis with them. eventually it worked and everybody wants to go there now. that sort of sums up the way trump operates. >> two happen to know if there's any black or jewish members?
>> of yes. my wife and i have been here and there are a large number of jews and a sprinkling of blacks as members. >> well. there must be repercussions from the way he boldly came into that place and yet i guess they enjoy the party so much that they've gotten over whatever hurt feelings there were. >> obviously he's successful. they stress that he doesn't wear the traditional rolls-royce, he drives a lamborghini. he posts about his money. he's everything palm beach hates but now they've come to see that
mar largo is incredible. >> the span is gigantic in the sense that you saw so many working-class and ordinary citizens and maybe it was in contrast to hillary clinton, we may not know that, but from very wealthy people to his residence with ordinary americans, what you think about that? >> on the one hand, he is a patriot. the fact that he attacked colin kaepernick over the national anthem debate but those are very heartfelt feelings that most americans have. at the same time he's likable. he's very candid and he'll make
these snide remarks. he's a appealing and people like that and that's quite different from hillary. cia felt that being assigned to her detail was a punishment. trump treats them with respect. i asked how do you like being protected by the secret service but he said it's wonderful. i'll be playing golf and they're all looking in different directions and if i miss the shot they won't see it. baron is also very respective of his agents. jenna and barbara bush would try
to lose their agents and was nasty to them. baron is a very gregarious guy. he'll say enjoy the breakfast, have a great day. just like trump. he's a great maître d'. for example, going back to when baron was two years old and he was having a bottle in the plane and the pilot walked back into the cabin while the copilot was flying and baron took the bottle out of his mouth and said want some mike. [laughter] that's amazing. talk about the codename the secret service has for the first family.
>> the codenames first teacher contract secret service are generated by computer randomly and they have words that may be hard to understand but then in addition, each protect he can choose his or her own word and milani and trump have chosen their own words. dick cheney wife lynn was author and the preface is that when agents are speaking into their little mouth pieces that they don't want others to overhear who they're talking about and they don't have confusion over the names. if they have a particular name that's very clearcut it's easi
easier. >> this white house seems to have a lot of. [inaudible] it reminds me of the para story of the elephant in the wine man. someone who's trying to understand and report what's happening, you have to have enough confidence that you're touching all the elements as a blind person coming in. you feel confident that your capturing and reporting on all the different war and factions and who are they. >> i believe i was able to get right inside because there are many satellite people who hear things in gossip and they leak and report but one were actually inside their, that gives you the
correct story. combine that with knowing trump for two decades and also knowing about the white house and secret service, all of that came together so i think i was able to present an accurate portrayal and that he will be seen as one of the great u.s. presidents but at same time includes all of the words intentions and personal details that make you understand how he thanks and operates, things that he doesn't want you to know because helpful curtain over himself to prevent anyone from knowing anything other than his tough guy image. >> what have we learned about the lessons learned from the people who have left the team already has other staff or
cabinet secretaries. what you think? >> about what. >> about why they left and what they think, what are they trying to clean up that he doesn't want around him. >> when they talk about him in the white house and changing the direction, there is something to that. in the first go-round he would listen to a lot of recommendations, but now he saying to himself i want people that i really feel compatible with and that i'm comfortable with who are smart, who are basically on my wavelength. i usually do not always going to agree, but that's what he's going for. i think that will work out well. >> why did he reach out to mitt romney? you touch on that in the book a little bit. it was confusing to people who
voted for trump after everything mitt romney said about him. >> he was pushed by steve bannon who likes his position on china and thought it would be a good idea and trump said he looks the part. trump is very big on appearance as you might imagine. they met with them and at first he was very unimpressed. romney confided that he hadn't really prepared as he wasn't really thinking he would get the job and then the second time he was prepared, but in the end there's considerations about who had supported him, who was loyal and in the end the sector of state, trump wanted him to be attorney general, he didn't want that. giuliani was not as a bigger supporter of sessions was, sessions was a big supporter and it went around and said sessions
would be perfect even though trump had reservations about him. he did appoint him as attorney general. he still makes snide remarks about him even though sessions is doing a fantastic job as attorney general in terms of trump's agenda. those are some of the insides. >> what about the difference between john kelly and another chief of staff. one of the lessons learned from matt. >> trump has given kelly much more authority. he never really gave others the authority to be chief of staff so everyone was just doing their own thing. at the same time trump goes around him as well. in the end trump is the chief of staff and he will make threats
about any restrictions. he doesn't like it when he says you can't see your daughter unless you go through me. so there's always this friction that goes on. >> you also talk about ellie and conway who a lot of us have known for years but it was very negative. you said her job was campaign manager in the white house was really in name only, that there wasn't much substance there and she was the number one leaker to the press. how's that going because the people i am in contact with don't see it that way. >> she's obviously a brilliant commentator on tv in terms of policies. i've known her a long time as well but when i interviewed her at the white house and i was recorded she started going into
other things that were obviously untrue and also about the ivanka trump. when you put something like that even in, even if you say it's untrue, some people start to believe it. she is also said to me, i have seen text messages to reporters where she makes disparaging remarks. i call her the number one leaker in the white house and that is not good because of course it means nothing can be kept confidential. it's not that she speaking national security information but it's hard to operate if everything is leaked.
>> you talk about her pics and you said she's a trump whisperer but there's a lot of billionaires who are friends of president trump who have asked to be set up with her and he refuses to do it. say more. >> she obviously is very likable. she's a big supporter of trump. she's beautiful, but she actually chose to cooperate with the person who wrote what i call a novel, mr. wolf who wrote fire and fury. most of that is just fiction. i know steve bannon said on some of that stuff. for example, the book says the remarks that trump made at the
new jersey golf club which were about charlottesville that steve bannon thought he could be removed under the 20th amendment because of mental impairment. i was interviewing bannon at that time of the controversy when trump was in new jersey and he said he talked to him twice on the phone and edged him on. it was wonderful and he said to retract it, if you do the press will jump on you. a lot of other items are just obviously untrue. just unbelievable. you saw how overjoyed she was and how overjoyed trump was but there's just silly stuff but some people just want to believe
these things and they can't figure out the difference between truth and falsehood. >> in your book you talk about how president trump talks to the mainstream generalists, the new york times and the washington post, there's a lot of reaching out to people who don't have the best interest in mind. what you think about all that? >> on one hand trump recognizes these have a great impact. if he has a message to let out and help call the new york times and washington post, but at the same time in his usual fashion there's another message going on and it's something that gets
attention so he uses a two track system. >> okay, let's talk about the aids. who are they and what do you think some of them have done some damage to the presidency. >> obviously jared kushner and evocative trump are well well-intentioned. they came up with the idea to send a message to arab countries, but they're both naïve and they've been responsible for the most disastrous decisions of the trump presidency, firing james comey as fbi director and appointing robert muller as special counsel. jared thought this would be great because the democrats would like it. he had this political view that
this would be great but of course it was the opposite. the democrats attacked trump and still are over that. they decided richie would be the best pr person. they're very image conscious. that has to be the worst hiring decision in the history of the white house but because their family he's not going to fire them. has a hard time finding people anywhere personally and he'll have somebody else do it or he'll just make their lives miserable. he does share with them that maybe they should go to new york and others problems that they're not reading and that's why call them the teflon aids. >> okay. >> the vice president. what's his role? you said in your book that he
has a way of getting in the background. >> whenever there's a controversy over some of trump's comments he goes into the woodwork. he's obviously very good about that. he obviously contributes tremendously on the legislative front and most important of all he doesn't attract attention and that's very important to donald trump. >> so he learned how to work with him well. >> yes. have a good relationship. trump respects him. >> with all the death threats and the hatred fomented by the left against president trump, talk about the implications of the 26-year-old who got in over the fence and was in for quite a long time? it wasn't revealed for a while. what is it about this culture and the secret service that puts president trump at greater risk?
>> secret service has had this very disastrous culture of covering up problems, agents who report problems aren't advanced and they have this attitude. [inaudible] you can imagine what kind of culture that might be in any agency, especially where the agents feel they can't report real problems. this has led to one fiasco after another. there is intrusions in the dinners and the man making it into the white house and they
lied about that. can you imagine an agency lying like that publicly. and then there's the intrusion they mentioned were an individual was able to get right up to the windows of the white house and. inside. the new director appointed by president trump is just clueless. he was brought on thinking he would change the culture and he's just bought into the culture. as an example he proposed to the white house to take protection away from certain members in order to save money. can you imagine? what could be more important than protecting the life of
president. assassination nullifies democracy. he proposed saving money to take protection away from family members and staff. it was shut down by horrified white house staff, but that tells you so much about why this guy needs to be replaced before tragedy occurs. >> wow. i think you said president trump had someone else in mind but i can't remember how this guy ended up getting the job. >> trump wanted another individual who is now chief operating officer of the secret service, but it was the chief of staff mr. kelly who was absolutely insisting that alice be appointed. they knew each other from the military. just a total disaster and is putting much ignored by agents
because they understand he doesn't know what he's doing. >> let's talk about the trump resistance. i've never seen anything like what's out there, outside these walls, both culturally and politically. what would happen if the right would've done this for president obama and developed a resistance across the culture, across legal lanes, across the political obstruction. it's just two different worlds that seem to be tolerated in america. a duly elected president. >> if this was done with obama they would all be called racist, and by the way you remember that obama spent 20 years listening
to reverend wright and having him as the person who officiated and his mentor. can you imagine if donald trump went to one service like that did not walk out immediately, he would be toast in the media. so a lot of it does have to do with the media and how they portray everything. a lot of it has to do with instinct and the people they know and friends and some people just feel sanctimonious. they feel good about themselves if they denounce someone like trump. they think they look good if they do that. others legitimately have political views. i try to keep far away from getting into any arguments with any of my liberal friends.
it's like an ego trip to think you can or should try to convince someone of your own political views. that's the age we live in now. >> technically, look at the economic boycotts. they were trying to hurt him financially even before the election and right after the election. they were trying to boycott anything by evocative trump. as he said in charlottesville after those comments, i don't see them being used but maybe i just don't see it.
>> it is a situation where they ignore the results. blacks think he's a bigot and yet it's the best unemployment rate among blacks in history. you just can't account for people misunderstanding but i think over time they will. as it was the case with reagan. in one poll he was rated as the number one president but remember how he was portrayed in the media? they said he was gonna ruin the world. i think the same change will occur with trump. >> talk about the trump tweaks. >> as trump told me in the interview, if he had not been tweeting, he would not be
present. was a way of getting around the mainstream media and connecting with common people with his own macular which is often misspelled and in the morning he'll start tweeting on his own. he only sleeps four hours a night. then he'll start tweeting and he reads a lot of the major papers. according to the novel by michael wolf, he reads the washington post cover cover and the new york times cover to cover and op-ed. >> how do you know the. >> i was able to get right to the whole issue and find out what he eats on the plane and of
course the most wonderful prime steaks are served that marlborough and he'll have them well done. reagan did the same thing. >> fascinating. it's just a bowl of lots of things. rush inclusion producing your book it turns out that in the thousands of stories about russian inclusions it was indeed a smoking gun. >> this aide e-mailed the campaign aides including manafort and those e-mails returned to congressional committees and washington post is not such a bad place because i used to work there and they quoted these e-mails. he was saying he wants the campaign to meet with russian leadership and he said
absolutely not. he said absolutely not, were not going to do this. then they said we have to make sure trump never does this. and they instructed another individual in the campaign to make sure that no one response to any request like this. they went to the people in charge of the campaign and said we want nothing to do with russians. the story had been totally ignored including by the washington post and an aide to trump wanted meetings with russian leaders. the real story was the campaign did not want to meet with any russian leaders. it's so unbelievable. >> white as i happen? >> another's bias, but in the old days, you would've gotten
away with this kind of thing so who's letting it happen? >> and they feel that writing anything positive about trump is a bad mark on them and their colleagues will look down on them. been interviewed by mainstream reporters who just sort of snicker when i say anything positive and that i must be a fool for saying that or it's snarky. it's like young women used to go around with belly buttons that were exposed and they thought that was fashionable even though most the time looked terrible. i think of it that way. it was sort of a fad.
some people cannot or will not look at the facts and make their own decision. >> as were sitting here, the media has thrown everything they can at this man and recently stormy daniels came out and everyone was worried is this the next shoe that will cause a real problem. something is different. you can throw all that in but yet is you're saying, the people must have their own line or they must be discounting the media. >> exactly. >> what i would say about that as these activities occurred more than ten years ago and i conclude from that that he has gotten older and wiser since then but early on in the relationship between trump and milani are she found out that he had seen another woman, his former girlfriend, carrie young,
and she was going to be going tomorrow largo with him that day. she broke up with him on the spot. she didn't care about the billions of dollars. broke up with him, goodbye, ordered tony to send the clothes back from our largo to her but a week later he was back and she told that she was sending her close back tomorrow largo. a wonderful little vignette about melania trump is that on the apprentice they were filming in their apartment at trump tower and donald was there and ryan was there sipping champagne and one of the contestants said to milani, you're very lucky. wanda motioned over to trump and said and he's not lucky? this was a woman with a great sense of humor. everyone who encounters with her
>> so what would president trump say if he read your book? what would he like? >> when i autographed the book to him on page 276 the last page it says one of the greatest presidents. but i have heard that the book is viewed favorably as a favorable threat white house. i think that is the way donald trump has proceeded regardless of the fact that they demonstrate and then there was
required in enabling those actions and they came from a million years from our ancestors ones that created humanity. with that origin of c6000 years ago her with the origin of any olympic began 1 million years ago. and that which dependent upon the national world to appreciate with the love of the home that forms in the natural world.
and then to think we should turn to gray satisfaction so in that world which gave us that. to make it is pretty hard to top that. >> but as a species we have been outside for millions of years. and there is a deep spiritual connection to that and in my experience that i can take any individual regardless of their so she oh economic and ethnic background with the rim of the
grand canyon and to stand with the sequoia and they are moved. but to honor carrie who was so gracious to write the introduction to the book that we have written, i will read a section from the introduction. that the extraordinary skill of writing about our parks with a deep spiritual side as well and driving experience of the native americans and then to practice that spiritual connection.
but to say this isn't a time for anger but it is a time for healing. deserts are forest or prairies the national parks and monuments. and free flowing rivers lakes and oceans are the common ground to be the inheritance to be passed on from one generation to the next. they are the sole geographies the landscapes of imagination without ecological state of mind. so each time i stand over the national park through created through wind and water i have the sensation to be very small