tv Discussion on Legacy of Apollo Missions CSPAN October 9, 2019 7:54am-9:51am EDT
the vatican's about the road trips taken by henry ford and thomas edison from 1914-1925. >> the idea was they wanted to go out and have fun, getting your car and do these things. they weren't going to have to try to light their own campfires or cold beings out of cans. they were not going to put a blanket on the ground. they had different amenities, they had a refrigerated car powered by it is in batteries so they could have fresh dairy. they had chefs who would prepare gourmet meals, freshly ironed clothes. they were so famous and america was so grateful to them that it didn't matter. the point was we are out in cars traveling and seeing these things, you can do it too. marymac sunday night on c-span's q&a.
next, a look at the legacy of the apollo space missions in the future of space exploration. the discussion was held at the national academy of engineering. [applause] >> welcome, everyone, to the national academy of engineering's for him on human spaceflight, apollo, 50 years on. i'm going on stage today by six incredible individuals, each of whom helped shape the history and the future of human spaceflight. a little introduction about myself. my name is deeann. much like many of our panelists today, i am an engineer. unlike most of our panelists i have never been to space which gives you an idea of the
impressiveness. i did grow up in brevard county, florida, cape canaveral and many of you launched into space, it has been an inspiration in my life and one of the reasons i chose to pursue engineering. i have gone on to have an atypical career. i am an endearing tv host nowadays and founder and ceo of future engineers. we have current talent launched with nasa where students can name the next mars rover. i don't know if you know but the curiosity rover was named by kindergarten student. we have a contest in november, if you have kids or grandkids that want to be part of space history i encouraged him to go online and submit their names. speaking of space history, i am going to tell you about our panelists today and i want to let you know their placement on stage is not a coincidence. we have a chronology here from
apollo on to thinking about going to mars. right here on my left we have general tom stafford, former nasa astronaut with the gemini and apollo programs. next we have captain bob crippen, shuttle astronauts, and doctor sandy magnus, a shuttle astronaut has been four months on the international space station. after that, captain chris ferguson, former shuttle astronaut, now the boeing commercial astronaut which is quite exciting. after that, the vp of flight is build reliability at space x. he joined me in 2002 and hans
and i share the title of never having been to space. but i want to caveat that with yes. i'm hoping with all the work going on on the commercial side, all of us will have the opportunity to go to space one day. at the end we have major general charlie bolden, former shuttle astronaut and former nasa administrator during the obama administration and oversaw the transition from the spatial program to a new era of space exploration where low earth orbit is being turned over to commercial entities and we are looking forward to new technologies going on to mars. the way it works today is we separate into three different segments. the first segment we give all our speakers time to share a bit about themselves and then we have a 30 minute q&a and
transition after the audience to start thinking about their questions and what you want to ask our panelists. we start on my left, general tom stafford. are you ready? general tom stafford received his bachelors degree with honors in electrical and mechanical engineering from the us naval academy and graduated first in his classes united states air force test pilot in 1959 and went on to become an american legend. in 1965 he piloted gemini 6, the first rendezvous in space. in 1966 he commanded gemini 9 demonstrating rendezvous used in the apollo lunar mentions. as commander of apollo 10 in 1969, he flew the first rendezvous around the moon and designated the first lunar landing site.
he commanded the apollo soyuz mission which was the first historic meeting in space between us astronauts and soviet cosmonauts, ending the international space race. and he holds the musk speed record. general stafford has been four types of spacecraft and more than 100 types of aircraft. he presided over the development of multiple aircraft, and distilled aircraft program and roadmap for the f-22 raptor. .. only about three weeks the time al shepherd flew until we go to the moon with shepherd at 50 minutes of flight. other factors entered into that,
the bay of pigs invasion and the analysis with the soviets would do on our free return trajectory around the moon. it was a real dynamic time. i used the knowledge i i gained for my good friends out shepherd and those people. really enjoyed it. for those of you who were there, it was truly a lot of fun. it was great time to be there. as a look at apollo and gemini, we set the tools of course we didn't know what we didn't know. for example, on that first rendezvous and we happen to lose a computer, radar or the platform, and then later, the first spacewalk around the world that someone nearly got killed. i could've been killed, too. then you have to train better
for that. today there's a rule you train underwater before you go out and do a spacewalk. also now they have virtual reality, so you trained that way. that came from gemini nine. also gemini six when wally and i had her engine shutdown at g0 with the liftoff signal. we knew we had a dead man's turn. we learn you have to have, a system they cannot complete automatic but a override and all this, a a very complex thing to and you do it right. we also learned lessons life on apollo 13. i'm sure you've all seen the movie, a lot of it, and that is a lesson like you look back in high school chemistry. you always pour acid into water. you do not pour water into acid because you will have some bad result. we learn from apollo 13, you
don't mix liquid oxygen with compounds that have carbon in thin. apollo 13 we had about five and a half pounds of carbon in the teflon wiring and 300 pounds of blocks. you've all seen probably the pictures that blew that double wall steel out, take to pieces and also the core service module out. that was a series of things. then i was involved in return to flight after the columbia accident, then a briefing with the admiral who chaired the accident board. it was whole series of things. he said he could use the word challenger, any word but columbia, the same lessons so there's a lot of rules you do not violate.
we've set these tools in place and they are all there. and so the main thing is don't screw up. [laughing] that was a great time to be there, but also as you mention i started this, all the stealth programs of the air force, if i've not had the experience of being in the soviet union, and then later having the first experimental with stealth airplane. i was commanding general there. i would've never started the roadmap of error for the f-22 after fighter. a whole series of things. just a great time to be there. i'll cut short a couple of seconds. there's rules out there, tools out there, and you do not violate them.
[laughing] >> the rules and tools, you do not violate them and do not screw up. our next panels today, with captain bob crippen who was the pilot of the very first spaceflight in april 1981 and went on to command through other spatial omissions. during his 30 years in u.s. navy he was an attack pilot answer is a test pilot instructor at edwards air force base. in 1969 he was selected as the nasa astronaut and was on the support group for the skylab two, three and four mission, and on the apollo soyuz test project. he became director of spatial program at nasa headquarters and the director of kennedy space center. he entered the private sector as a vice president at lockheed martin and served as president of the propulsion company. he earned his bachelors in aerospace airspace in gao's elected to the national academy
of engineering in 2012. it's my pleasure to introduce bob crippen. [applause] >> thank you, thank you, deanned morning. i'm really pleased that they were able to pull together this panel of friends of mine. it's great to be up here, especially by former boss and friend, tom stafford it has he indicated he selected as one of his support crew for the apollo soyuz mission and took us over to russia, to star city and the soviet union. it was still the russia part. [laughing] even out to the launch site, which was how i think where the first foreigners to ever visit that. and then had the pleasure of talking, and the rest of the screw into the command module on is his lunch so we go back a long
way, as indicated. it's also a pleasure to be appear with sandra magnus and chris ferguson who flew the last shuttle flight. one of my fondest memories, i just telling sandy was john young and i, my commander, and i got to do a photo op with them because we represented the bookends of the spatial program, if you will. i joined nasa right after apollo 11, 50 years ago, long time some older than dirt, too. i had come off a program that was highly classified, department of defense program called the laboratory, mold for short, highly classified. just a few years ago filing declassified. our job is to take high-resolution photographs of the soviet union. but when the program was
canceled they took seven of us off of that and transferred over to the nasa astronaut office. we didn't do any training, didn't go to a selection process with nasa. we just walked in the door and they put us to work. there were some similarities between the skylab program and what was being developed at nasa and m.o. l. that was my first assignment was to go follow, bird-dog what was going on with the development of skylab to make sure the crew interfaces were acceptable and i worked throughout the program and its flights would start off, dramatic but ended up being a great program. when it was concluded i was assigned to go start doing the same thing following the development of spatial which it just and announced. a lot of people think of the job of investment is mostly
training, but most of my career with nasa was spent in doing engineering work following the development of the spacecraft. i would imagine that the current astronaut office is doing the same thing with the vehicles that are being developed today by lockheed, boeing, and spacex. there is a lot of engineering work that the astronauts are assigned to do. i was both surprised and honored when john young, our most experienced astronaut in the office at the time, selected me to be his crewmate for the first space shuttle flight. great training with john and flying that mission, certainly one of the highlights of my life. as deanne indicated i went on to command three of the flights
come and it turns out most of those flights were also engineering test flights to make sure the space shuttle would do what we had designed it to do. when looking back, i'm very proud of spatial program. yes, we had to terrible accidents and i lost some very close friends, but when you look at the some of the 30 years that it was flying, early on in the program we did some important department of defense missions that i think contributed significantly to us winning the cold war. the shuttle made it possible to fly payloads like the hubble space telescope any of the great observatories that have revolutionized our knowledge of the universe. and it also made possible the building of the international space station, which is an engineering marvel that is still up to doing its job.
in summary, i think the spatial program is something we'll look back on fondly. it would be a long time before ever see a vehicle that's that's anywhere near as capable of that. and i was sorely disappointed when, in 2011, the program was terminated. i'm anxious to have the star liner and the dragon topsails are going to correct the problem person, so thank you. [applause] >> are right. for our next speaker we have dr. dr. sandy magnus was selected to
nasa astronaut corps in 1996 and is float on four shuttle missions including the final shuttle flight in 2011. she flew to deny space station november station november 2008 where she spent for a half months on board the iss and flight engineer and science officer. follow her sign a station to serve as national -- at nasa headquarters. during the time it nasa dr. magnus worked with the international committee including with europe, , japan, brazil and in russia. dr. magnus is now the deputy director for engineering within the office of the secretary of defense research engine engineering. prior to working at nasa dr. magnus was a stealth engineer at what donna douglas picture to bachelors in physics and masters in electrical engineering from missouri university science and technology and a phd from georgia tech. help me in welcoming dr. sandy magnus. [applause] >> so want to take mom to talk about the space station because i think that's why i'm on the panel. thank you for the invitation.
let me start up a sink there's a big difference is minute unit i'm still between intellectual knowledge and experimental knowledge, between book learning and going into lab and actually touching something and that's when you really understand things when you have that with the knowledge. that's one of the biggest changes that happens with astronauts when we find space with short-term or long-term is we experience that environment and we experience the planet a different way. when you fly on space station it's interesting, you adapt into the environment at a completely different level than when you just up there sort of as a tourist for ten, 11 or 12 days flight. i didn't realize it was happening until the crew came to pick me up in march with i saw them float across the hatch and you looked awkward and so unsure of their motions and just very gingerly moving their bodies as
they moved through the spacecraft time not to touch things. i said let me take you back. let me take you back to the service module and show you how to use the treadmill. i just took up because i knew immediately what hand rail, would off that handrail come that handrail and go straight through the pma and hit the one bag and he knew exactly how is going to translate through. newton law drives to work willn you live in space. i took off and he catches up with me venture he's like, you really move fast. i was a maze, really i didn't realize it. that's when i realized i adopted -- adapted to a whole new level. it's interesting because when you experience that, he realized it was normal for me to get up every morning and float through my day and talk to people around the world in different countries about all the amazing sites and things we were doing. it was normal to have the earth out the window, to the extent
that after maybe a month or so i almost took it for granted, i took it for granted looking at t the window. there was an earth floating by me below and the beauty of it and how amazing that really was. we had this ability to adapt that i think is really important. but when you're up there experiencing it, changes your perspective. let me share one of the greatest perspective changes that i had, that was the perspective about gravity. abby but on the stages been space has experienced this but to me it was incredibly amazing as we were reentering and slowing down of falling back into earth come to experience gravity for the first time as an external force. it was weird and it made no sense and i was appalled at how horrible it was. and to have that shift, everyone in this room understands gravity intellectually because we're all scientists and engineers.
you know the equations and we can describe it and quantify it, but that's not the same thing as understand it instinctively and internally because you have experienced it. the fact when you hold your arms out like this and there's, think of all the little diagrams you done in physics we get the vertical forces and horizontal forces, and all that stuff. there's a vector acting on your arm that you're using the energy of your muscles to basically fight against. it's just weird to experience that. it makes you look at the work and a whole different way. this is the power sending humans into space. we have these expenses, chips are view of the world and we set thinking about questions that we should be asking that we don't think about asking because we take for granted the environment are already living in. it opens up our minds to new ways of looking at the universe. it makes us think just a little bit differently, it's just that little shift in perspective and
so that's what so powerful that sending people into space and what so powerful that having people in space for a long time and doing the experiments we do up there. maybe not all those experience are cutting edge, but but i guarantee that has a continue to put people up there with different skill sets, as we continue to put different kinds of experiments up there, we are going to learn more from the questions we learn to ask then necessary the answers were getting from those experiments because we're just at the beginning of wondering out of norms of the north with establishing on the planet to open our minds to new ways of thinking and you questions to ask. that's really what is the power sending humans into space and human space program and am excited about where we are now because we are at the point will be given more people into space to have these perception shifts based on their experience based and will think up some really a basic questions to ask in the next decade. i will stop there and i will look forward to your questions.
[applause] >> are right and on to our next speaker. next we have captain chris ferguson. captain chris ferguson is boeings first commercial test pilot astronaut and you will be among the first to go to space aboard boeing 100 star-ledger. he led the government of the state spacecraft mission said and crew interfaces working hand-in-hand with nasa. he was a leader in the development and testing for the spacecraft launch and grant system. he is a retired u.s. navy captain and former nasa astronaut, having piloted space shuttle atlantis, commanded space shuttle endeavor and commanded the final shuttle mission sts 135. he served as deputy chief of a nasa astronaut office and the spacecraft to mitigate or for multiple space shuttle missions. he holds a bachelors in mechanical engineering from drexel and a masters in aeronautical engineering on the
naval postgraduate school. it's my honor to introduce captain ferguson. [applause] >> i always love listening to sandy magnus stores. all what i'd like to do is maybe talk about the future. crip mentioned the shuttle program ended in 2011 with that immediate replacement to get back to low-earth orbit. we've been working diligently over the course of the last eight years, 2014 specifically was when the big contract was late return americans to low-earth orbit aboard commercial space graphic towards a bit of an expedition what exactly is a commercial spacecraft. what really is happening here is nasa will begin purchasing services. it will begin purchasing services to the astronauts from the service of the earth up to
the international space station and return them safely after six months. the benefit is it allows nasa to focus or express missions beyond low-earth orbit and turning the role of transporting people and cargo to low-earth orbit over to commercial companies and he comes at a great value to the taxpayers. we are on the cusp after some delays of returning americans to space and a think you'll see that it cannot end is probably late this year, early next year after an absence of about eight years. i'm very excited to show you this. this next chart will look a little bit like the nfl's red zone if your family with that but it was my way of avoiding the two chart limit. this 11 first, a brief description of what our vehicle looks like. the left hand side you see the spacecraft which is a vehicle that will take astronauts up and down, has a very apollo like appearance. it will carry up to five astronauts up to the station, stay there for six months and return safely and remain on
board as a lifeboat should we ever need it. the service module will be jettisoned just after the deorbit burn and the crew model will be recovered and one of our five west coast landing sites. it would be a landlady. we will launch on an atlas v rocket, very proven technology, about 80 flights to the credit since the early 2000s and we're looking forward to all of the modifications of all them, 41 which was printed on crude launch facility and the two vehicles will recall launch vehicles are sitting and waiting for the paper to show up which will happen very shortly. i mention the nfl sunday ticket. or the red zone. you have an opportunity from left to right top to bottom, we are in the process of training the very first crew. i will be the boeing represented, we will love nasa
astronauts on with us. we will provide you get all of our flight support from the mission operations from a team in houston comprised of a lot of the mission controllers that serviced the very tail end of the space shuttle program so we will leverage a lot of the capability that nasa had as a function of safely operate the space shuttle for 30 years. we are going to launch aboard an atlas v rocket. cape canaveral facility and we will land at again one of our five west coast landing spots. the object is to adopt the space station within 24 hours. the first missions may be longer so we can complete all of our test objectives. then we remain there up to six months. once we get a goal from the ground the weather and the conditions, the landing facility are clear, we will undock and in
a short time, less than six hours to recovery we will land in the western united states and recover and ideally our primary site will be the white sands test facility. some of your familiar with it. we have two landing areas, when the north and one in the south. we have another in the town called willcox arizona which is not too far from the mexican border in essentially the middle of nowhere which is what we really like. the dugway proving ground and the edwards air force base in california. next up is the big moment for us. it's what we call our test,, conducted the white sand test facility, i took a staple level of to the launchpad in very near future and you'll see this test if all goes well with the final preparations in november which to us is a a very big step in
solving up to our un-crew tesla. we will fly which will document international space station part of putting a crew on board in the near future. again that's a little summary. i do afford to your questions but this is what the future spaceflight holds. thank you. [applause] >> hey, now for next speaker. hans koenigsmann is vice president of the built in flight reliability met space x where he leads the companies poured into the process development team, oversee the launch with this process during launch and assesses and resolve launch risk. he's built up the avionics software and guided navigation and control department at spacex and develop the launch readiness process. he was chief architect of large chief engineer for the last three falcon one missions and
most of the falcon nine flights his expense includes development of suborbital and orbital watchers as well as tablet projects both at his previous work in germany and in california. he has a phd in aerospace engineering and production from university of brennan and a masters in aerospace engineering from the technical university of berlin. it's my honor to introduce hans. [applause] >> thank you. it's an honor to be understand and to realize that my flight time is about less than your space-time. so obviously i've got to work against that year with more slides i guess. i'm going to shoot a quick video of the demo on mission that was the nation that was the dragon spacecraft docking unmanned and completely autonomous. it's in preparation to the
manned flight later this year. i'm actually going to stop this year. this is falcon nine and will recall -- lt 39 were all the shuttles and apollo launch from. this is mission control, two a different rooms. mission control and hawthorne. inside to see the earth and ripley. that's the view on the spacecraft.
second stage, and the first stage returned in lands there. dragon separation, and then the phase in begin thinking closer to the space station. little earth is the gravity center for us. this is the actual thing. this is one of my favorite phases. little earth state of there. to be patched up again and to be brought back.
the nose will close for the reentry. the shoots the ploy -- deploy. and this is the recovery boat, two of them. one thing, after tom's talk yesterday i had to add to this. spacex and nasa, nasa and spacex got an any for the webcast. we do a webcast for every launch. it became pretty popular and it's exciting. it's just an event and the whole thing is very popular so obviously we own and any for
that. the rest of the pictures, this is dragon and you can see on the top -- i should get a laser. there is a dragon capsule in different stages basically. down here this is the final integration. this chart is mostly of lots of cabling going to other places basically. on the side you see all of it of propulsion. these are propellant takes in these devices over your other thrusters that basically move the spacecraft in case of problem. that's one of the things that is different in dragon than any of the spacecraft. the integrated system allows you to use those propellers. if you don't use them for escape you can still use them for new moon -- maneuvering in orbit, compared to a tower that has a
rocket you then throw away. also heavy had into trading. this is emergency training. i think this is a fire drill down there. i wanted to add a picture of the reminds me of other things we do. we had 76 launches of falcon nine and falcon heavy. space x start a business in 20022 so did this relatively quickly. the main thing is these launches the majority of those from within the last three or four years, pretty amazing how fast we wrap up and how many launches we do currently. this one in particular is the landing of -- we invented the parallel landing operation, and landing the boosters and reusing them is an incredibly advantage is what a flight over and over again, if you want to do this quickly because allows you to just put another second stage
on. we're starting to reuse -- extending our reusability and it allows you to gain so much experience and much shorter time and approving a spacecraft ace of what you get back and what you see and you can analyze it. so with that i just want to point out we will -- sorry. we will perform the mission as soon as possible. we have the hardware coming to the cape ready soon. and that's pretty much what i have. >> i encouraged you to make it quick. are you done? >> i think i am. >> i think i interrupted you. [applause] >> amazing. last but definitely we have major general charles bolden,
jr. he was nasa administrator from 2009-2017 overseeing the transition from the spatial system to new era of exploration. he is the president and ceo of the bouldin consulting group. during his 34 year career. during his 34 year career with the marine corps he worked in nasa's astronaut office. he piloted the space shuttle columbia and discovery including the mission in 1990 that the plug the hubble space telescope. the command space shuttles atlantis, and discovery. at nasa mr. he oversaw the shift towards commercial isi recently quit space technology mission director. his tenure at nasa has seen the lens of march rover, the nation in passing knowledge of jupiter and an increase of earth observation satellites. he earned his bachelors of science in electrical sites and u.s. naval academy and his masters in system management from university of southern california. join me in welcoming charlie bolden. [applause] >> thanks very much.
thanks a lot. i'm tail and charlie so this is a digester i do want to call out a couple of people who really played a critical role in my development but also in the time you spent at the massive ministry. i mentioned doctor bobby brown yesterday left to go back up at the sky and when i think who is the mastermind behind the most everything we do in human spaceflight in the last 20 years. that's a guy named bill gersten margaret i don't know whether you still here or not, if you are -- did he leave? [applause] okay. one of the things i learned a long, long, long time ago when it came to naval academy and then i can when it became a marine in which a basic school, that i said listen to the gunny, those that you observed will understand what i'm saying. listen to the gunny or listen to the chief which means you're very smart people who happen not
to be officers. their staff ncos and if you listen to them they will not steer you wrong. i'm not trying to say bill gersten meyer was a gunnery sergeant parchin but in my mind, in my time as a nasa administrator that was my gunny and my chief and so i thank you for everything you did. real quickly talk about some things. i got an opportune to work with everybody on the stage at one time or another and hans reminded me we worked together on one of the satellites that he worked when he was still in bremen and is one of the final extremist we had on my last space shuttle mission sts 60 6n 1994 and we almost didn't get the launch. turned out to be incredible because we were able to get it off. some of you, crip reminded me of hamilton the broadway sugar sh. how many of you have seen hamilton likes okey, if you haven't you want to go see. it's awesome for one thing but
there is this musical reprise and when everybody talks about what impact hamilton had on him or that on hamilton. you get to aaron burr and embracing and aaron burr says, and i'm the damn fool that shot him. as crip said i'm the damn fool that ended the shuttle program in 2011 when i was the nasa administrator and i was also at the cape went crip and his crew landed and i was in tears because i'd spin my entire nasa career, i had over 30 years so i knew what a tremendous thing in the information but it's really time to make the transition and i agree with crip. the crime was we did not have replacement available so we could go fly a can. hopefully we will make, not make the mistake as we transition to lunar orbit and then on to mars. another thing, crip mention what the shuttle brought us and i will continue to emphasize this.
shuttle will go down in history, its legacy will be its introduction to adversity and inclusion to nasa. the ability of people to fly who could not fly, that would be the legacy of shuttle. things to look for that are happening now with these two guys, spacex and boeing. we never tested the escape system on the launchpad at kennedy until after we had the challenger accident. we should have done that. they have now done that. you have people who work on the pad every single day and they depend on a wait to get off. these are the workers, not the astronauts but the workers they need a way to get off the pad every day something really bad happens. we had an opportunity to use once and we didn't because we didn't have confidence in the escape system. these guys have already taken care of getting rid of that so those are some things that happen. selection and training of astronauts, because sab said, the big think about where we are today is we will allow people,
some of you sitting in this room, you may not think so, but you may have an opportunity to go to space if only for 20 minutes. that will change your perspective on this planet and so if you get an opportunity, find a rich friend, get them to foot the bill for you but you need to do that. and in the last thing i will say because a lot of you are involving academics, get your students to understand they don't have to be astronauts or scientist. they don't have to be engineers. we need people today you think about food and think about drugs and medication. there's no supply ship coming every 30 days or every three weeks. we are going to have to stuff that will sustain for years at a time so lots of things people can do. i look forward to taking your questions and helping you understand how you help kids get interested in taking apart this thing, the matter what they do. [applause]
>> now is when it gets fun. not that it was an incredibly fun over the we're going to do something q&a. i'd like to start our discussion today really by celebrating history. we're talking apollo 50 years on and when you think about the apollo program, at its time it was on the cutting edge. but from human perspective, really taught us how as humans to have the capacity to explore and find you. i would love for each of you to share just one aspect of apollo, whether it is a person or a moment that inspired you or influenced you in your work in space. or in life. i'm going to start, why don't we start here, because i think you started as an aston astronaut in 1969, bob, i think at some countless inspirations to share. >> well, i was inspired,
actually the original mercury seven people were part of my inspiration, and then tom here. but as i said, i joined the program while apollo was in progress, but it was the people in it that really inspired me to try to emulate them. >> sandy, how about you? >> when the apollo 11 landed on the moon, i don't remember much of it, sorry, but i will say that what you really inspiring about the apollo program is again you go back to perception. now all of a sudden we put people on the move and it really, really inspired the whole world about, hey, wow come if we can do that and maybe there's something i i can do in space, too. so for those of you who live in the d.c. area m on october 21
here in d.c. at the convention center is the international astronomical congress which brings together the whole global space command. what we are sobering this year is the impact of apollo and figures on to see what's happened in the space industry. in the last 50 years. it's going to be an incredible display of not only what the united states has accomplished and continued to aim for but the what the rest of the world has engaged in. the theme of the conference is power of the past, promise of the future. i think that pivotal moment when men stepped on the moon and really inspired the whole planet to where we are today, and the trajectory of where we're going tomorrow. so it continues to infect and i think that will be true for the next 50 years as well. for those of you who are in d.c. i invite you to come to the congress and see what's going on globally in space. it's pretty impressive. >> i was eight, and i do remember watching it on a black and white television in my
parents basement. it obviously stuck with me. i sort of went on and still, my mother stayed peaceful sketches i would make of the lunar module. i was a pretty created eight-year-old. but fast-forward, i read a book called digital apollo. i don't know if anyone here has read that book but it was not asked about astronaut or about people. it was a story about how we did it on a technical level. how did we get to the moon? we invented docking system that no one really knew would work but how did we do this? how did people position themselves to land on the moon? it was just an amazing, how does it has to stand? if you look at, what if you want to see? when does he turn from going backwards to going forwards? amazing discussions about how we really did it. that served as a bit of a motivational force for how we design a new spacecraft?
to have to etch the glass suppliers can see the ricin? what does the docking system need to do? what does it need to function the way does next it help us. we lay on a lot of the apollo legacy just inches on our capsule and spacecraft. >> i was six so i i was between the two of you. i was nearsighted and then the wrong country. [laughing] i'm incredibly thankful for having a chance actually to work on the next generation, and i felt a little bit, apollo is an incredible inspiration from what is a everybody working space x but part of what we do also is to re-create that, to have this boldness of building a device and filling it up with propellants and putting fire and going to the moon that's an incredible thought, really hard
to explain to people who are not engineers or not scientist or haven't seen that. so to me that was one of the key drivers. i want to do that, too. you know, very thankful to elon musk to have an opportunity to do that and hopeful, hopeful we will see mars the next decade face again and have a chance to stay longer and stay may be permanently. that would be great. >> i'm not consent concerned ie or six because i wasn't. i was in my last in the throes of my last two months as a student naval aviator. i was in meridian mississippi going through flight training, getting me to go back to pensacola to go aboard the boat. i had no interest in space whatsoever. i admired the original seven. we were sitting watching neil
armstrong and buzz aldrin this into the service of the moon and i was mesmerized by that still no interest whatsoever and it took a person to really get me interested in space program and that was the late great doctor ronald mcnair who personally inspired me and embarrassed me into submitting my application for the asthma program because he reminded me of something my mom and data dad at all the tie going up in south carolina, that you can do anything you want to do if you want to work and put your mind to it and i had forgotten that and ron asked him as beef is going to play for the program, told and not on your life and you look at me strange as some of you yesterday and he said why not? i said they would never pick me. he said that the dumbest thing i ever heard. [laughing] how do you know if you don't ask? i was challenged and they did but i was inspired by apollo up to become a part of the program and to think i was most inspired them eight years as almost eight years of the nasa administrator when it learned people of no
clue about rocket ships and sometimes don't know which end is up play and importantly critical role in the very future, and whether or not exist, the reason we were not ready to go into human spaceflight from the u.s. right after we phased out of shuttle was because we could not convince the congress that a commercial spaceflight program was the way to go for the u.s. the reason that we went to the moon was because we had a president surrounded by people like george. tom talked about some of them yesterday, the people who refused to say we can't do the spirit we don't know how, is what they said, but we will find a way. so apollo inspired me to work that way with people who make decisions, to help them understand why. social media has changed the game, pro and con, but follow
the example of spacex and the way they utilize social media, nas has gotten into the game of informing people. when i talked yesterday about it, it's not either/or. it is and. government and industry, government and other governors have to work together. i learned that was my inspiration from apollo was signed out there a lot of people who don't have a clue and could care less but they're the ones who are going to help you do it. >> , do you want to share? >> of four of the four nations , again, the most impression is that changes as far as your views when you flew to the moon. only 24 of us who flew to the moon. 12 of the left around. that's unique when you're out there, it's about the size of an orange.
the experiences you go through, like gemini nine, from that we develop training underwater. there's a great movie out, i recommend it to you, and and iw that it was made in russia about my good friend alexi from apollo sledges. it had the premier of the kremlin. was there and alexi and about 6000 people. later when i i was over there y group on the iss advisory task force, they had a special joint force in the museum. it shows that movie. i think apollo 13 probably the most realistic of of the space movies use in the united states, but this movie called space walker, you can get from amazon.
it's got english subtitles, probably one of the best movies, the most realistic i've ever seen. it is unbelievable. i recommend it to all of you. it's about a two hour movie and, but something you will never forget. i told crip this at dinner last night. i didn't have time to go into it yesterday, but on that second stage burn, the third stage when i was on the trans lunar injection, step 11,000 feet per second, we got up around 32,000 feet, it's hard to vibrate. the frequency was the same but the amplitude was building. i told john young, this feels like a flutter but there is no aerodynamic forces on this
thing. kept getting more and more and more and more. it got so bad, vibration to i remember about 34, 35,000 feet i could not read the instrument panel. i thought the thing was going to blow apart. he was the abort handle, turn it 45° to the left and that would shut the engineer. i knew i would be gone a day and half at least, and so that's way of test pilots as commissioner pai said if it blows, it blows. [laughing] so finally shut down. picked up 11,000 plus feet per second, 36,600 feet per second. we were within tenths on our computer. i said what the hell was that thing? i couldn't believe it. and so john turned around and said hey, guys can look at this. there's a stabilizing bar to
stabilize the couches to the spacecraft. the last thing before they close the hatches, disconnect the stabilizing bar. they locked it down. well, guess what? he didn't disconnected. furthermore, i told -- back at mission control, said, we've got this vibration. i said it's really something. they called us back and said that looks like where the problem with the tank pressurization. about a week later i got a call from the doctor himself with his german accent he says, tom, we owe you an apology. [laughing] i said, what's that? he says, you remember i vibration you had at the end of the burn? remember that? i said remember?
hell, i'll never forget it. [laughing] he said, the tank rationalization valve was set to close to the vent valve and they got into a harmonization sequence and that fed them into the engine. we were on this stabilizing bar so we were on the cantilever so we really shaking all the pieces out there. so we fix that one really easy. we may double sure when they closed the hatch the stabilizing bar, to make people, and they set a wide variance between the tank pressurization and valve, and no other problems. >> amazing. i'm also impressed your memory is like a trap. he is quoting speeds. so impressive. onto the next question. i really want to look towards the future of space travel or human spaceflight. i know on the rising wave so
much excitement. we got the commercial crew program. we got space tourism. you've got artemis to quit going to the moon and using that as a stepping stone to going to mars and some people want to retire there one day. there's so much excitement so ii would love for each of you to share what you're looking forward to most about the future space expiration and what do you think the critical technologies are that will get us there? are the things from apollo that still resonates today? >> the critical technology now is what we call, you know, we have to figure out how to land. talking landed on mars, so that's something we've got to figure out. again if i go back to a space x is and has done, we had talked to them about flying a dragon to mars in landing because it would give us data about a propulsive
landing, retrograde landing on mars. again, working with the private sector and the experiments they are doing that keeps nasa from having to do that allows him to go on and develop the exploration part of the program. the other thing is the human body. we know quite a bit more that we have ever known before thanks to a lot of the expectation going on the station today. long-term survival on mars, i think we will be okay, but it's just sort of like like a commel you see on television. i think we'll be okay. okay is probably not good enough when we talk about this so would probably need to figure out exactly how we're going to keep the crusade in the radiation at five of mars. i'm a big fan of going underground and using the martian soil as a safeguard so
humans lived underground. >> spacex was built with the background of making the human species multi-planetary, which means both earth and mars for now. obviously the big technical problem going to mars is money. there are some technical problems, too. i mean -- [laughing] money plays into that, too. spaceflight is superexpensive and so one obvious -- reusability. currently the design for ten times, we will start fourth time with an excellent actually the dragon has been used three times. it can be used up to five times. all these things help because you don't have to build something again. you have to expect it, refurbish
it but ideally you want to keep that really, really low, keep it as low as possible like an airplane basically so that you expected, it's fine but you schedule regular maintenance on boosters and others. we recently recovered a fairing on the second stage and saved from the water falling into the water which is super useful and then we will refurbish that. we are working part by part. starship while i was to use the second stage again and it really becomes the cost of fuel and the cost of some maintenance operations basically, and that's where we need to go. that's the technical side. we need on the other side help in terms of payloads, we need resources, people that use the service and that's basically where everybody can pitch in and
help us. obviously if you have this capability somebody needs to use it and that's super important, too. i think that's primarily it. mars, reusability, not to mention of course reliability and safety. you reuse stuff, you can make its safer because you see the boost to coming back. you see possibly leaks. you get more data. we use video cameras all over the place. we just pulled up and look at them. so that helps you. reliability, safety. >> i think the biggest asset we have right now that will enable us to get to mars in the not too far distant futures for 240 kilometers that way, it's the international space station, the place where learning to live and work for long durations. how do we purify water? had we get to recycling 95, 98% of our water? how do we remove co2 from the air? how do we add oxygen?
how to make this work in a system that must function for the duration of time that takes to get to mars and back? we are perfecting the systems on the international space station today. i think where to look beyond 2020 with the current end of isis life is and as the question, what are the users? who will build the replacement for the place to test and develop long-term assurance that the systems will, in fact, work on the day that we eventually do leave low-earth orbit for the martian surface? >> i look at this two different ways. number one, there's breath of access which were trying to great in low-earth orbit, and the biggest barrier is really the cost of getting people and things up there which are industry partners are working on to try and come reusability is a key clearly to try to lower large cost but frequent of launch. if you go to the cases of the
user, you want to be able to be sure you can get access frequently based on whatever the pace of your business model requires. so those are two dynamics to point out. we will see what we get to with the current plan. with respect to going for the gun think that was orbit, the key radiation question, we have a lot of questions. we need to understand the answers and manage the problem because radiation is not going to go away. that is sort of i think what we have to do there. recycling is important but i would say it's beyond just greedy and 100% closed close life-support system. it's also everything else. think about the logistics train we might have to establish to support people on mars. it's ridiculous to imagine how you manage that. we have to forget how to recycle everything we take into space, how we can use the materials on the planetary bodies upon which we place humans, and there's a
lot of work that has to be done in that area. and oh, by the way, that kind of work will eventually come back and benefit earth because we are finite resources here on our plan a mistake out to recycle a little bit more here, too. so some dual use technology that we could be working on that will benefit both you and push got lower orbit orbit and our planet. >> well, i do firmly believe that humans will visit mars someday. before we do that, not only learning to live off the planet on the iss, but we need to learn to live on another planetary body, and were lucky enough to have the moon just a few days away as opposed to months going to mars. it is a great test ground for learning now to live off this earth that we're all lucky enough to do. there are many questions to be answered, radiation being the significant one, and we ought to
take advantage of that, the trips that we didn't make to the moon were all little camping trips, somebody else, they were short duration kind of things. to live there is a totally different problem, , and we need to solve that. .. >> people have things to sell, always want to sell you small boosters and put them together. does it work. we've been through it many times. radiation, absolutely. we've got to have a way to protect for radiation. that's one of the big risks and assuming that your systems
engineering is good and your systems have enough reliability to get you out there. perhaps a nuclear thermal rocket for mars, you don't need it for the moon. as far as upper stage propulsion. and the, oh, again, the two things you've got to recycle is water and oxygen. you know, for example. if i had 300,000 pounds, and 100,000 pounds on them, so, i had really, 4.8-- how do you do that? >> well, all i had was 4.8% and then gli. what i had was 1.6%. now the human being uses about 2.2 pounds depending on your weight of oxygen.
50 to 75 pounds of mass for every day you breathe unless he recycle. you're going to have 6 and a half pounds of water a day. and that's going to take that much more. so you've got to recycle that. and so, there's a lot to be done. and one other thing. this kind of sticks in my craw, we hear the word commercial, i was on the backup for the first gemini flight and apollo and everything nasa bought was from commercial entities. it was all commercial, execept we had requirements, but the contract is a good team, but the word commercial means nasa steps out of the way. i kind of disagree because nasa did everything on gemini,
apollo and the shuttle was all done by commercial people, none by nasa, zero. so i wanted to bring that up. [laughter] >> . [applause] >> prior to this, i did a bunch of research that didn't include in your bio at some point the guidance system that you did hand calculations in space because the guidance system failed now you can understand how he could do that, he's a human calculator, i love it. and so we have a time here and only let a couple people answer before we go to the audience. the space industry is highly competitive, as we know. it has a history of being competitive, but it's also highly collaborative. the scope of what we're trying to achieve requires us to really collaborate. now you know, in the commercial era, still highly competitive
and highly collaborative. how does that balance? i guess, give me some insight on that delicate balance and why we need both? i'd love to start with sandy because i know you did a lot of work with international agencies during your time at nasa. >> yeah, it is a delicate balance and i think it's a good dynamic because there's a push-pull amongst the different entities. the competition is good because it makes everybody keep innovating and the collaboration is good because we learn from each other. it's quite risky and dynamic and the harsh environment to try to operate in. so keeping that balance where the learning happens across the community, but there's enough competition and poking at each other to spur people to do better, is really awesome and i think it all works at the end of the day because in my experience, working with people around the world and in the space program, what i have found is that everybody is
really, really passionate about the mission of flying in space, whether that's machines or people or both. and because everybody buys into that and feels that and is passionate about that, we can conquer all kinds of issues that might otherwise create fractionization and just complete dysfunctionalty. i mean, we still have some, but in general, the whole community pulls together because they believe in that passionate thing. and one thing in the space program going back to collaboration and cooperation, it shows you that program, what we can do as human beings if we really want to accomplish something difficult, it's the most complex, highly technological program ever conceived and executed by people, and it involved numerous different countries with different agendas, different languages, the english system and the metric system and that's a mess, too,
but political situations, but this, this project, this multi-decade project worked because everybody engaged in it at the end of the day believed in it and had their passion towards it and there's no reason why we can't solve any problem that's facing us as a global population if we take the same attitude, but that's why this is a competition and the collaboration works so powerfulfully in the space program because of this passion and this total commitment to achieving the end goal. >> and who wants to take this one? >> ditto. >> ditto? [laughter] >> how do you take this one? >> i don't know, i feel like when you actually-- there's a level of competition, that's good and a level of cooperation on the launch pad, that everybody roots for the
mission, it doesn't matter which company. and same thing when things go wrong, everybody feels terrible when things go wrong. and at the end of the day, people that go up in space are passionate about space and they want their company to succeed of course, but there's an overarching level that people want things to go well and safe and reliable that in many cases is more important. and that's in many cases. >> and dollars quickly at a high level. if you look at what it costs to develop the shuttle, it was between 30 and $40 billion in 2010 dollars give or take depends what you look at and the shuttle program was about $3 billion per year about four to five flights per year depending upon the year, but if you just look at sort of the way the commercial crew program is evolving, for the cost of operating the space shuttle
program for two years, a little over that, you're getting two different providers that are contracted to do a full development, two test flights and six service flights back and forth to the international space station. so just looking at it, dollar value. it will turn out to be a very good value for the american taxpayer when we execute. where does it get repaid? i think the intent is in exploration technology to get us to the moon and then to mars. let's invest in low earth orbit, commercial capability to get cargo back and forth from there, and soon to be humans back and forth from there and allow nasa to go beyond low earth orbit with that taxpayer investment. >> now we're going to transition out to the audience for questions and while we do have mics set up we have someone that's going to walk
around. so if you have a question you don't need to scoot your way out to the aisle, raise your hand and someone will come meet you with a microphone. >> my name, jd horn. with the materials engineering of nae. my question is about space force. the space -- a new military branch was created last year so we are going to have additional branch for the armed services. with your real world experiencing space, your perspective so very valuable to make sure the new branch would operate to its maximum efficiency and deliver the best of value. so i'd just like to see the panel to share some of your views and also maybe specific
suggestions so the space force would be operated accordingly. >> the question is, your views of space force? >> yes. >> okay. >> or suggestions as wellments would you like to take that, tom? >> yeah, i'll take it. okay. well, the way the force has been evolved over the years, starting with army and somebody invented a boat for the navy and went on for years and who invented the boat, the wheel and then the air. i think the first shot ever fired was an italian two place flyer across the english channel in 1910 and some fight in the balkans.
air then became a domain. the force projection. and so all you're doing in this case, you're going higher and you're going faster. and to think that it's know the going to be is to be, i think, a little naive. and we know already in open literature what the chinese are doing with hypersonic glide vehicles. and that's out in space. so-- >> and also want to take that? no? we have internal views on space force up here. >> next question. >> i'm dan baker from university of colorado. i'm a practitioner of space weather and many of you on the panel have mentioned space radiation as a concern. i guess my question is, how important is it to you in your
mind for the future to have forecasts of what the space environment is going to be and to have adequate warning to help, let's say, prepare for the more transient kind of space radiation effects? >> i think it's important for astronauts, but not nearly as important as it is for us on the planet. you know, space weather today, speaking to the choir here, it is how we have-- we anticipate problems to communications, you know. we've been very fortunate in that we've not had a major space weather occurrence that's knocked out satellite communications and the like, but that is a possibility, so i think long before we need to worry about what's the risk to a crew member flying in space, we've got to continually have an ongoing improving technologically developing space weather capability just to protect us here on the
planet. >> i think some of the ideas na have been floated on protecting astronauts from space radiation and i understand there are some advancements being made in polymers, but one of the most practical applications i've seen is essentially create, you know, the-- infect, built around a spacecraft which is extremely power intensive. this is a problem that we're going to have to solve and i'm-- while i would strongly advocate the prediction of such events, i don't know how good we're going to get we're good for three years. for your three-year trip to mars you'll be fine. ultimately you'll have to beat the problem back. >> i mean, from my perspective, i watched the space weather every time when we launch as much as i look at the other weather. it's the same, the same.
it has a different effect in that sense that you care about life on board and the electronics rather than wind in the upper atmosphere, but it's a factor that goes into the whole picture and whole environment. >> we'll take the next question. right here. >> yes, from a commercial perspective what is the end goal? where do you see this program in, say, 25 years or 50 years? what's your vision? and this could be honest or-- hans, or chris or sandy, anyone in the panel. >> good question, actually. the-- we were probably on from contracts and frankly, one of the discussion of commercial or not, i found that one of the biggest discriminators here, whether you are actually--
somebody build that to me and this is the amount of money you get and you're on your own, yeah. mostly. it's not quite like that, you get some support obviously and we work as a team, but at the end of the day the money is finite that you get for something and that's a model i can see helping the cost keeping control because we are very cost conscious. and it's not billable hours like you have in other, you know, professions. so because that's basecle the cost, the billable hour and it just goes up and as the incentive is not there to keep it low cost. so i see this as a currently we keep these contracts in that way and then it becomes more of a service and forgot who said it, i think it was you, it could be like a service that you book it like you book a ticket basically. you have a certain amount of
money to bring stuff from the ground to the moon and whatever it is basically and some amount of money that goes to mars. but fundamentally, costs must come down dramatically in the next 25 years in order to make this work, in order to make the whole economic of it closed. otherwise it might be too expensive. >> so if i may. >> yeah, so in a perfect world, 25 or 50 years from now, probably closer to 50 than 25, to the point, the cost of launch will have come down, so people like you guys, who are very creative and have a very good expertise in certain areas, have an opportunity to go have these perception shifts that i mentioned earlier and then the creative juices flow and you think of things you can do in low earth orbit. things you can take advantage of with microgravity and business ideas. what we're missing now is that piece.
we have a lot of capabilities that are going to be coming on-line, but we haven't figured out yet how to develop the markets or how to develop the use cases for the broader private enterprise, not using the word commercial, but the broader private enterprise. and so getting the access for people to get up there and have good ideas figuring out what are the platforms beyond the space station and what other kinds of adventures we can create. 25 to 50 years from now i'm hoping we started to solve that problem and you see some of that wedge of activity becoming sort of normal. >> i'm the eternal optimist, however, comma, this is one thing that bothers me because we all talk about 25, 50 years from now. we don't have that long. the international space station is a machine and all of you in this room are engineers and-- most of you, i'm neither, but i've been around you long enough to know that machines
break. we have probably four to eight years, i think, of life left on the international space station. money is not going to help that. you know, we don't have a way to get enough pieces and parts there to refurbish and make it new. something has to step into its place as crip-- as with the space shuttle, with the space station we have nowhere to go. somebody has got to come up with a business case who helps people understand there's value going into low earth orbit and having a pharmaceutical laboratory. low earth materials laboratory because we've demonstrated that on the international space station for 19 years, that's what the space station's purpose was to demonstrate to people in business that this is
an incredible, incredibly potential money making venture. nobody's bought that case yet and until somebody buys that case and makes the investment, i'm going to put a platform up there. i thought bob bigelow was going to do it to be honest. bigelow has had the beam on the international space station for four, five years and it's not stepped off yet. so am i being critical? you bet i am. because nasa spent a lot of money, to allow the private sector to use this test facility so they could step off and go make money. you don't make money if you're not willing to take a risk and hanging around the inconsistently space station is risky in one respect, but it's not a business risk because you're having room and board and transportation frequently provided by the government. the government doesn't have enough money for all of you conservatives here who believe
in the free market, you've got an opportunity. jump off the international space station and build the low earth orbit infrastructure that we have got to have if we're going to successfully send humans back to the moon and on to mars. enough from me. [applaus [applause] >> can i just put a-- >> yeah. >> to finish, to bring the point home. you know, boeing and spacex at no small cost to the taxpayers are developing two new capabilities to get back and forth to low earth orbit. we have one customer right now and that's the international space station. we need other markets to evolve. we've had nine years. the first time we've done this in 40 years since we developed the space shuttle. without a destination in 2028 or a commercial market to build, will we be ready to retire the capability to get back and forth with humans? i sure hope not. >> you want to just say--
>> well, yesterday i mentioned how fast the apollo program was turned on. it was done in about three weeks. and also, in the same way, the space exploration president bu bush, sr. started was turned off just as fast by william jefferson clinton when he became president. off, boom. and the same thing happened with the obama administration, it wasn't within three weeks, but it was turned off the constellation program was turned off. now, i don't know who is going to win the election next november, a year from now, but that can be turned off real fast, what we have there. so i can't forecast who is going to be the chief executive in the next two or three cycles, but that can go on, it can go off.
that's the big risk. >> all right. next question. >> we've got-- [inaudible] >> questions, but i'll try to limit it to hans. i'm glad you can see well now. what about the competition jeff bezos company versus spacex. where is he? he's got also-- their company have their rockets planned they took off from, that's quite amazing, but is that serious competition to spacex? >> i would definitely say. i mean bezos-- >> yeah, he can pay for it, also. >> i mean, they are competition, they're building great vehicles and, however, we are ahead of the game right now. that's one big step that rocket needs to do, that's go through
orbit. and that is in some cases has been proven to be harder than people thought and i've learned that myself, it's hard to get to orbit. so we have that advantage right now, but in this competition, and we feel like it gives us an edge because we're pushed, we push to work on lowering the cost and becoming the best competit competitor among other competitors. >> next question. >> hello, my name is tom johns university of wisconsin, and i thank the academy for the sessions. i'd like to ask about the future commercialization in space and striking the right balance between speed and safety. we've seen during the session and the incredible advances that are being made, driven by competition in terms of advances, very rapidly in terms
of the technology, arguably not fast enough, but on the other end this last year has brought us some insight into what can happen when speed can lead to screwups with regard to basic laws of aerospace engineering and in terms of redundancy. and so, finding the right balance between those two is always a challenge. i'm curious what the panelists might comment about what's going on, what the future holds, the role of nasa on advocacy and in terms of, dare i use the word regulation or providing that safeguard against a kind of disaster that would be incredible blow for the whole industry if it happens at a critical moment? thank you. >> i think the heart of that question, how do you balance speed and safety. >> okay. i'll start. >> okay. >> you know, you need to have
both and safety-- speed does not-- speed does not mean you don't operate safely. safety has-- safety is a mindset as much as it's anything and hans and i were talking a little about this at breakfast this morning. the safety mindset says we may be two seconds from launch and i don't feel well and i say stop. you know, that's the critical part is having people who have the ethical background to say, this is not right, the shortcuts we're taking are not right and you go back and look at the program that you have in place and adjust it as necessary. the government doing it, nasa doing it doesn't mean -- because we generally take longer, that doesn't mean we're any more safe than the private sector. you know? going slow doesn't guarantee
you're going to be safe either. it gives you more time to do stupid stuff. [laughter] >> it's a delicate balance, a mindset. i visited with a school recently and one of the pleas from undergraduates we need to be talk a ethin ethics course f engineers because one of these days i'm going to have to make a life and death decision and that needs to be ethically grounded and so there are a lot of things that don't have anything to do with math and science and engineering, that we've got to make sure that the young people of today understand. there is right and wrong. there is what is ethical and what's not ethical, and there's a good book to read how theage chaer occurred, the underlying title is, i forget. that's what happens at my age. [laughter] >> when we allow things to go
on that we know are not right, we infuse that attitude or that culture in our young people. so we as engineers and scientists have got to teach them how to think ethically and how to make the right decision, even if it means the program is slowed for a while. because nothing will end a program like rushing to the end and having is blow up on you. that's done. he is that it. people get over being years late and dollars over. people don't frequently get over having-- we have never recovered from losing two shuttles. i think all of us who have been on spacecraft will say that. you don't recover from that, it's always a scar you carry with it. >> chris-- >> i'm sorry, if i may. the other thing to really think about as to speed is just complacency, right? you get -- you get into this
mode where it becomes normal operations and you forget to question things because things are normalized. so it's not really a speed thing, it's a matter of staying always alert and thinking about what you're doing and questioning and listening to the system and making sure that you can have an environment where people can bring up questions because that's really where you're going to create the right safety environment, whether you're moving fast or slow. it's all about avoiding that complacency and that's hard, right? because i talked about earlier how adaptive we are as human beings. if you look at the accidents, it was all about complacency and we weren't questioning as carefully as we should have been doing. >> let me amplify what charlie said. there's another way of saying it by going fast and slow. the worst thing you can do is have an all time failure. [laughter] >> you've got it.
>> and chris, you're going to be on board, you know, one of the first test flights. what's your thoughts about speed versus safety? [laughter] >> maybe i can't hear your last line. so i don't think that speed and safety are synonymous. i've had the unique opportunity to watch every phase of our vehicle's design from the engineering to the piece parts come together. does it make me a foremost expert? no, but makes me an interested watcher. we've got a set of requirements, hans, i think you'll agree -- it's bathed in the mistakes that nasa has made in space flight operations in the past. we've had help from nasa. sometimes too much. but any help in the right area is a good thing. so i think that this is a very
appropriate transition between a government-run and managed program over to a commercially run and managed program with just enough of the past sort of steeped in. and boeing, you know, or its legacy companies has been involved in every flight program since the beginning and enormous with the shuttle. so a lot of that mentality and mindset is there. i think ultimately having folks on the floor and watching it come together. i've had the unique opportunity to do that, really builds a lot of confidence. >> next question-- >> i just want to add my motto is only the paranoid survive. so, you've got to have the right amount of paranoia, if that means something to launch and explaining to your customer why you've stopped that for like three days, so be it. that's more important to get things right than to get them done on time.
>> question, yes. >> so i've heard so much about the cost and complexity of getting things from the earth to low earth orbit as being one of the barriers. the concept both in science fiction and in some of the serious aeronautical journals is the space elevator. is anybody still thinking about the concept of the space elevator? >> i can tell you when i was executive director that we have a very passionate community inside the arrerospace industry that a very enthusiastic about the space elevator and it's still out there as a concept. technically i think there's road blocks and the strength of the cable and the nanoparticles and weave together some cables of these kinds of materials that are super strong and can handle the tensions, i don't know the details, but i know there's a very passionate community out there. >> material sciences, very
serious material science problem, but we solve things like that. >> yeah. >> next question over here. >> andy jackson, section ten. i don't want to be a downer on this because everybody is talking about human space flight, but humans are very fragile and when i hear the colonel talk about so many pound of this and when we look at artificial intelligence and robotic design, would it be better to construct a community on mars which is based on robots, but not on people, but people control the robots so you have the experience. it seems a huge amount of the cost of getting us to mars is the fragile beings and
radiation there. is there a way to create an alternative community on mars without sending people there first, they can go there later. >> you've got curiosity, soon you'll have mars 2020 with an experiment called moxie. they'll be automated system doing things that people we hope will do later like extract oxygen from the carbon dioxide atmosphere and we've been doing that for 50 years. you know, i'm not a geologist, but i have geology friends who tell me if we had put one geology on the surface of mars for as long as curiosity has been there we probably would have explored the planet by now and i don't say that as a trivial -- it's not a joke, but there's this innate curiosity that humans have that we are
not able yet to teach a robot. artificial intelligence and all of these things they will be here one of these days, i think. an example, hubble telescope when it had an abberation and we were know the going to send the shuttle up to get hubble, the national academy put together at the insistence of senator koskie, by the way, put together a team of people to decide how to save hubble. that's the title of it, saving hubble. and even human space flight people we've got to find a robotic capability to do this. the technology wasn't there at the time. if we had that happen to hubble today i'm confident we could put together a robotic mission to do repairs to hubble that have been done to date. that's because we have the humans up there experimenting and know how to automate.
you've got r-2, robots roaming around, spheres. we're trying to offload the human from being mundane things and it's now time to send humans to mars trying to pull together what the robots have been doing for 50 years, i think. >> look at it as a toolbox. humans have certain skills and comes with pros and cons. and just like in your toolbox in your garage, you need a mix, depending the mission and what you try to accomplish. they come with expensive infrastructure and fragility and limitations. so you design the mission-- pick the tools for the mission based on what your goals and objectives are. that's always going to be the case it's never going to be a
either/or. it's going to be-- >> i'm a big fan of mars, everybody knows that. i'm pa fan of robots in place. before we put a foot of man on mars, put the robots there to bureau and build the infrastructure for any soldier, marine, airmen or anybody who go to strange place, when they get there, they don't build it, and kellogg, and taking robots and they go into an air conditioned space where they can go do stuff. you've still got to dig a fox hole when you get into the remote parts, but we can use robots to build a habitat and that's a business that we can be working on right now. >> it might be slightly apples and oranges, but to follow charlie, curiosity on mars,
three and a half years to cover the same distance that gene sern and jacks smith did in three days and brought back 245 pounds of rocks and materials. so, again, it puts a unique-- it costs more, too, for sirna. >> a bit controversial, you talk about competition and collaboration. it seems that one of the big elephants in space might be china. i'm interested in your response in addressing the relationship in terms of space and china. >> why does everybody look at me? [laughter] >> i'm the guy that--
say what you will about president obama and the-- in 2010 we thought we would have another shuttle or what you call it and it got shut down by the congress. a lot of you recognize because your intellectual partners are chinese. everybody's-- we've got problem with everybody. you know, what makes us able to work with cosmos on the international space station is mission focus, deciding what we're going to do to make the world a better place. when i was named to command my last space shuttle mission, george abbey said i want you to go to houston and fly another mission. what is it? i thought it was to repair hubble. he said no, not on your life.
i want you to go back and command the first mission carrying a russian cosmonaut. i said forget it, i've trained all my life to kill them and them kill me and i don't want to fly with any russian. now that you've said that, calm down, two guys are in town, go have dinner with them and let me know what you think in the morning and i met sergei and vladimir who are my two friends to this day 20-some odd years later. what we talked about had nothing to do with technology. we talked about our kids and what we wanted to do for the future and we became mission focused on figuring out how we could get our two teams together and successfully work on that mission and it became shuttle mir and now the international space station. so i think that tom will tell you the same thing about alexei and-- >> the exact same thing. i graduated from the naval
academy, went in the air force because the korean war was going on and had the first winged airplane. i wanted to shoot down migs and -- and ended up on an apollo soyuz and realized not all russians were communists. alexei is one of my friends. and in fact, his granddaughter is named after my daughter and a different son is named after alexei. and the whole thing-- we're really working good together and told to go along with george abney, we have to work with the russians because we need a crew escape vehicle and the soyuz was there.
and i didn't know years later i'd be adopting two orphan russian boys. >> next question. >> megan smith from a proud member-- hello, charlie. proud member of section ten. two quick things, charlie, i loved what you said about ethics and i wondered whether we might think about a hippocratic oath like that ring that the canadian engineers get from the brits that fell down when they graduate. my question is with this incredible group maybe to lift some hidden figures story. there are so many people, of course, apollo and space mission was born at the same time as massive civil rights work was going on for race equality, gender equality, lbgtq, so many people, and at the time there was a lot of discrimination in choosing who got to go and do different things, but still people snuck in and find their way to participate in these teams and i thought maybe the panel could
lift some of those stories today for us, one or two ideas and the one i would share is betty skelton, first known as land speed records, flight speed records, mercury 7 used to call 7 1/2. and she embedded with them for a look magazine, like "time" magazine story and did every single test and met with the russians and did these things. there's beautiful pictures from the 1961 article, should the woman with first in space for should a girl, back then, sorry, girl be back in space. the spacesuit tonight fit her either and still don't. sharing those stories, women of all races, men of color, lbgtq, reflect on during the space race that maybe less people know you would share and we as an academy can do to make sure those stories are more known? thank you. >> i can't share had a hidden figures kind of story, but a story that perhaps addresses
through the root of what you're asking about. i was in middle school when i first dreamed of being an astronaut and i had no idea how i was going to do it, no idea in it was possible, but something that i really decided, it was just who i was. and when i-- in 1978 when i entered high school there was an article on the front page of my hometown newspaper in southern small town in southern illinois and across the front page was flashed women accepted into the nasa astronaut corps and had a picture of all the women in that 1978 class. and when i saw that newspaper article and that picture, that was a huge-- i started crying quite frankly because at that moment i realized that the dream that i had was possible, that there was a path, that there were people like me that i could totally identify with, doing the thing that i always dreamed of doing. and over the years i have sort of synthesized that moment into
the power of role models. and how important it is -- everyone in this room is a role model for some kiconstituency. i'm not talking gender necessarily or race, your hometown, the high school you went to, the community you live in, nieces and nephews, kids never listen to their parents, nieces and nephews, somebody someone you're a role model for, and to your point. what could the nae do, this group of people in the nae is an incredible group of people very talented and successful and i would encourage you to get out there and be a role model and encourage team about your passion in stem and that's really what it takes to create more and more people engaging in our fields. but do not underestimate the power of role models. i'll just stop there. >> another hidden figures story? >> i'll bring up one point, i
have three daughters and i became convinced early in my career that women could do whatever they wanted to. and i had the pleasure of having sally ride on my crew on this ts-7 and she lived up to everything i expected of her and went on to help inspire other young girls to get involved in stem kind of projects. 35 years ago today kathy sullivan and sally ride were on my crew on 41-g and we had-- we were going to prove that kathy was quite capable of doing a space walk because a lot of men doubted a woman could. she went out and did the job superbly and proved that. and subsequently, we're had all kinds of women do space walks and somebody brought up yesterday, we may have two women go out together on the international space station very soon. >> i'm sure tom and bob and
charlie could not imagine, you know, in the '60s and '70s, flying tactical airplanes with a woman on their wing, aircraft. and women in combat aviation and tactical aviation came about when i was a fleet aviator and it was-- it was a bit of a rocky start, but before too long, we didn't think twice about it. now on my crew we have nicole mann who is a colonel in the marine corps, a boeing f-18 hornet pilot and she's absolutely awesome and it's just amazing how quickly things have come about and opportunities in aviation and engineering. you know, we had lead flight directors, two of them, who were women. lead space walkers who were women and it's just like i said, the metamorphosis has been incredible. >> i know no one here is speaking directly about artem
artemis, we can't neglect that. as a woman and a mother of a four-year-old daughter and a one-year-old son we are going to have a woman step foot on the moon. it's phenomenal. so it is time for us to begin wrapping up unless someone at nae gives me permission to go further. okay. it is time for us to begin wrapping up. i'd actually-- we're going to be quick, but each of you one sentence just to give a close. one sentence. there you go, tom, go first. >> work hard. [laughter]. [applause] >> all right, bob. >> don't screw up. [laughter] >> be a good role model for those around you. [applause] >> the next 12 months is going to be pivotal for human space
flight. [applause] >> i'm going to repeat you, don't screw up. [laughter] >> that's a nice version. >> what you have in the time that you have in the place that you are. [applause] >> very good, thank you. >> you know, and i'll close just by saying, i had the opportunity many years ago to have dinner with gene sirna the last person to walk on the moon and he said it's all thanks to american ingenuity. and my heart swelled. it's not just people in space, it's the community, and the spags nation inspired our nation, our world, it's competitive, collaborative. it's inspired adults and kids and i cannot wait until the next generation and current generation and scientists and
engineers and astronauts innovate next in space over the next 50 years. so, thank you so much for all of you being here and all of your wonderful questions. thank you so much to our panelists. it's been extreme -- [applaus [applause] >> a look at our live coverage today here on c-span2. at 12:45 eastern, a discussion on russia, ukraine relations and the role of the west. a former assistant secretary of state in the george w. bush administration will participate. later today irish ambassador to the u.s., daniel mullhall and others discuss brexit and u.s. relations. live on c-span2. both events are live on c-span.org or listen on the free c-span radio app.
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