tv Key Capitol Hill Hearings CSPAN January 2, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm EST
to the message to take to the public. have we also had to have a consistent spokesperson. so we decided to recommend to jim that he be our spokesperson. not fbi headquarters, not all the others that had a hand in it alway but jim because jim would alwaysstest be sitting with us and would coming have the latest information that we were going to be getting coming from the reinvestigationstent that max was very much involved in. we wanted to give a consistent ven we message to the public. over time what we ended up esto doing, long before even we got the manifesto in 1995, was we started go being to the public with one message, and that was when you think about the unabomber, think about chicago, hat thiunabombe between 1978 and 1980, then think about salt lake city, because between 1980 and about 1982 or '83, that seemed to be the focus of where there was a connection for the unabomber. an and then after that time frame, from 1985 and on, think of the san francisco bay area.
put those three things together tog and then eventually -- i'm going to to defer to max to talk about sign the composite. that became a significant part of the message.and chicago, salt lake and the san francisco bay area and the composite. jim by 1995, we got the manifesto. rea when all those pieces came together, we went back out to the public through jim with the of message. we really, i think, got what we were looking for.is i will go back to that composite. it's a fascinating story of the sw investigation as well. >> i will jump in before you address that. the composite is the iconic picture of the man in the hooded sweatshirt, the aviator sunglasses. >> early on in the investigation, you do a lot of monotonous tasks. reviewing the file, we didn't have a lot of leads. reviewing file and trying to determine if there were things that hadn't been done in the past. i was reviewing the file with
regard to utah related bombings. there was a bombing in 1987 at a computer company in salt lake city. it was the only time the individual known as the e omny in unabomber was ever seen.alt l he was seen by an employee very y time close. she was within three feet of him, looking at him out the window as he placed a bomb ou beside her left front tire of her car. her she was interviewed afterwards intervi by a police artist, an artist wards they brought in to do a composite.n to she did the composite.d the when i reviewed the file, it washe something unusual. there were five different composites by that same artist in that same witness on five different days.ame it was just unusual for me to see that. why? so i found this particular witness, tammy and asked her why. tammy said, he wasn't capturing what i was trying to tell him. her he kept getting the shape of the tryin face wrong and some other things. she was very adamant. i said, tammy, how can you be so be
s adamant about that? she said, well, i just reviewed my notes. and i said, what notes?id there's no notes in the file t from you.ite she said, well, i wondered why they never came back and got notes from me. they instructed me to write down everything and nobody every came back.n c just she brought me her notes. she was very consistent with what she said. jim had just finished a case supervising as the sac a n san kidnapping case in san francisco, the kidnapping of a young woman. she was snatched out of her bedroom at a slumber party, taken, raped and killed. they used a forensic artist to do the artist concept of the person who killed -- kidnap and k killed her. it eventually led to the identification of a guy named richard alan davis. richard alan davis, if you took you his mugshot and you put the
drawing side by side, they were exact. i'm not being negative. but most police artists' concepts have been, you talk to a a witness and you give them a book full of noses and a book full of types of faces and ears and they plug all the things to s re mr. the. i refer to those as mr. potato head drawings. they captured the features of a a person but not really the person.ot jeanie was an artist first. she was a tremendous artist.ng. she could interview a person and draw a real life like picture of who the person was describing.. so jim said, find her. get jeanie and see if we can do this. we did. age we took her to utah. tammy interviewed with jeanie and they for something like four hours to get a composite. everyone thinks the life of an
fbi agent is very interesting and they do exciting things. during that four-hour period of the time, i got the privilege of playing with tammy's 3-year-old on the living room floor and watching "lion king" on tv. the artist concept that resulted was a great artist concept. if you have the opportunity to look at the two different concepts, it's just remarkable after seven years what tammy s could describe and what jeanie could draw and if you take ted kaczynski's university of california official photograph that w and put it beside it, you see it exactly the jaw line and the jutting chin that she described. that was a unique thing.aring we did it in black and white. we didn't want people focusing he was on yellow hair. because we were afraid he might be wearing a wig and so forth.ing what we found out later he was. he was wearing a yellow wig and he was supporting that yellow hair. wig by planting yellow hairs in bombing to throw us off track when he didn't have blonde hair.
there were all kinds of interesting things throughout the case like that.t hary >> terry, you mentioned the manifesto. i want to get to that. give us a sense in the final years of the pressure you felt klahoma to catch this guy. i was reminded reading the book, 1993 was the oklahoma city bombing. pre first question perhaps to the whitehouse or the high levels was that the unabomber. talk about just the pressures that you felt. >> one of the saddest things that happens is when you were assembled and you think you have a great plan and someone else gets killed.as that happened in 1995.re m it happened to us in 1994.di while all of this was coming l together and while we thought we were making a difference. you can see the moral of people from t just kind of start to dip. you go home every night, max andncisco i commuted. we commuted from the east bay each
over to san francisco. while everybody else chose their partner, we kind of became partners.cause we kept each other's moral up. on those moments and those days, victi of course, people back here, th because it's their job, the phones are ringing off the hook,d media has its own spin. the families and the victims of the the families are on the phone or they want to talk to you. you do. a we went and sat down with people. to what do you say? i remember the epsteins.doin dr. charles epstein was a unabomb victim in 1993. i remember john conway, the first case agent for unabomb, t expected took me out to meet the epsteins. we sat in the living room.om the apprehension of going in there. they were one of the first families i met when i started doing this. we sat down and it was not at c,ft s all what i expected. i think from that point on, this is what really got us through the days.
they sat there and they were more worried about me and whether i or not i was getting er the enough sleep than they were about what had happened to him. as max and i and jim dealt with hen the families and the victims will over the years, they were all itting that way.u in the darkest days when you would expect that they will be upset, they would be sitting down with you and saying, you got to make sure you stay focused and stay rested and know that we have confidence in you.ou i it's hard to convey how you ay feel. but i will tell you, i know how be i think everybody feels today in that's looking at the world and is responsible for being on the 's diffi front lines of counterterrorism. you worry and work long hours and it's difficult to put it st down.ila we used to say -- i know they you still say that -- if you are a baseball player and you bat .500, you are about the greatest in the world. the fbi and the cia, we cannot afford to bat .500 and we can't
afford to bat .900. because one out of 100 getting through can be not just a tera tragedy but perhaps going forward could literally affect the sovereignty of our country. that's how serious the problem of terrorism became.atbeca that's how we took this when we spent the days together. >> june of 1995, the unabomber sent out his manifesto. it did not just go out to the "new york times" and "washingtoni did post" but also "scientific american" and "penthouse." i did not know that. tell us your reactions when you learned about the manifesto. did you realize this was going to be a major break, or was this going to lead to more complications? >> for me it was a major break. back up a little bit. co i was concerned about the mmunica unabomber, the difficulty to materi catch any criminal that's not communicating, it makes it very difficult. once they start communicating,
you have opportunity for lead contin material to develop., that the unabomber had been quiet for's almost seven years up until he th. started bombing again in 1993. l and then in '94 it continued. he started writing letters. i felt, that's good. he wrote a letter to the "new york times," an editor to begin with.d and then leading up to suddenly he comes forward, gushing 35,000 word manifesto. u i thought, alleluia, this is the right direction. he also attached to that an didn't extortion demand, a threat to u the newspapers. he preceded -- followed that, actually, very closely with i'm going to blow up -- he was claiming to have a terrorist group behind him which we didn't believe. we're going to blow up an airliner if you don't public the manifesto. then a few days later he came with another letter, i was just kidding about that. which we didn't think was funny. when that manifesto came, of course, we read it intensely and looking for any clues.e wabou we had experts that we sent course copies to, people that were lynn quiz tick experts. i would like you to address how
we brought that a conclusion to where we made use of the manifesto to bring the public ught tha attention to it. >> sure. ma when we got the manifesto in alle who th 35,000 words, there were a number of people on the task force who thought it would be a great project to go back to and wrot try to source what time did this person -- what time frame was this person educated in who wrote this? what could we tell about ber phrasing? what could we tell about the ge take four books that were referenced in the manifesto?19 all of these things. pr that took us on this journey to a number of college campuses.
i will take you back to 1985.mc one of the things that happened thre in 1985 in november was that a tter w professor in michigan, university of michigan got a bomb in the mail. mayb his name was mcconnell -- professor mcconnell. it was a bomb that was actually connel built into a three-ring binder.l there was a letter with it. a this is my thesis statement on we were the history of science. i would like you to take a look at this and maybe tell me what you think. a sponsor my thesis. of course, when professor mcconnell and his assistant opened up the binder, it was actually a bomb that went off. we were really fascinated in an this 1994 a couple of postal does inspectors were fascinated by it work and proposed a project to focus a in on this history of science, unive what does it mean. we had done a lot of work on that.ifesto gone to a lot of university a lot of campuses and talked to a lot of professors.prof by the time the manifesto came, go a lot of the information that try came from knowing all the professors enabled us to go back to them and drill down and try to bring more details together about the books that were our fi
referenced in the manifesto, the language and how it might relate to the history of science, which was our first clue from this guyonths when he wrote that letter. we spent months really trying to un get to know and understanding manif and reading the manifesto. had by the time we had someone step forward that could help us bring, we it together, we had kind of beentr on trails.lot of p we were able to go back and pull a lot of pieces together. >> there was debate about whether or not to publish the sh manifesto. "the washington post" did.s a tell us about how -- i believe th there was a meeting that you can maybe describe where at first you said, no, don't publish it. but then changed your mind quickly.>> the tell us about how -- about that re meeting. an >> there was a meeting at the task force in san francisco. po the knee jerk reaction was, the national policy against doing business with a terrorist. we have an extortion demand. we h we sxf3;iát. we will recommend to the
director of the fbi that they they should not public. it took an hour to turn that should decision around. the task force members to say we should look at this from a law enforcement perspective and let t washington deal with national issue policies. if it will move the d an investigation forward and give nati us the opportunity to make an arrest in this case, doesn't that outweigh a national policy broad national policy? w so we changed the task force members -- changed the recommendation to me and terry at and i went back to -- came back here to washington and we went the across the street to janet reno, the attorney general at the time, and she agreed. the next day when -- i was amazed but busy people made
themselves available and we had the publishers of the "new york times" and "washington post" at cos a meeting along with the editorial staff, which was very d interesting. terry, do you want to comment?he >> it was funny.is we're sitting on opposite sides of the table.ngs we thought the tension would vei have to do with talking about unabomb and publication. it really came down to the -- i perha mentioned that we have this psup at scenario where we think if you published it, one of the things ling t we would do is sur veil newsstands in san francisco and other cities because our obuja the profilers tell us that perhaps the unabomber will try to show up at a newsstand and get a we think trophy copy of the paper.
i'm telling the story.spdhe they are listening. po finally -- i said, we really on tho think that if the post or the s. times published this, we would set up on newsstands. was fro we found in san francisco, there's only a couple of places where the same day "washington oughts post" is actually published -- i mean sold. wa we think that would be the perfect way, because "the new york times" is everywhere, the perfect way to publish it in the post and we can kind of stand up on those two places. there was quiet. and then someone -- i don't remember actually if it was from the post or the times, but i have my thoughts, said, by the way, who sells more papers in san francisco, the post or the t ad iould times? i had no answer.. i didn't know what i should do. go ahead, tell them. i said, actually, we all kind of laugh because "the washington post" sells nothing in san francisco. he then said, well, i wouldn't have been surprised at that.ouldn who reads the post washington?eads so we had a good moment there. ultimately, they shared the costthere. of publication. on september 19, "the washington post" published in a special ins%a"j,rq nabomb manifesto.sert t we then implemented our plan. again, max and i were going home one night, had it all ready, we w
had people coming in early thee al next morning to set up on the newsstands.ds. we figured that we needed so to many agents to watch about four or five locations, because we really didn't figure we would sho have over 100 -- maybe 150 e people show up. at 3:00 in the morning, we got athey t call before we ever started the the blo commute. they told us, we have got lines around the block at these places. ha we have hundreds of people waiting to buy "the post." we needed more agents. that's what we had to do. >> it turned out to be -- we got the help of the media by publishing it and then i did numerous press conferences the talking about, remember what we know about the unabomber. we know the geographical areas he he worked in. urging the public to come forward. there was a million dollar reward that existed for a few years. and a 1-800 telephone line that year people were calling in their
potential suspects, people -- exwives reporting their husbands. ex 52 or 54 brothers reported third brothers were the unabomber. of course, we were just looking for the one tip that would be look the one that made good.one that is what happened. >> that's exactly where i was ly w going to lead to. tell us about the tip.that? >> max, you want to talk about zeroi that?÷qcz >> i want to talk about zeroing in on him, too. >> we got a call from an attorney who was brokering -- t trying to broker a deal with us about a client that he had. he was a washington, d.c. attorney.good it just -- things don't happen like they appear to have happened.ted h this attorney had a good workingim relationship with an fbi agent gi
here in washington, d.c. he was no longer here.c he was in south carolina. he contacted him in south carolina. he in turn said, i'm not there, i will give you an agent in d.c. an to contact. he did. this young lady met with him and got a 20-page or 21-page document to read. it was typed on an antique 1925 typewriter.ter. we had one forensic piece of ?@y evidence that we were always searching for. it was an antique smith corona 1925 to '30 typewriterco.togeth that's the one thing that connected all of the cases together over the years. molly got it, took it to the -- our laboratory.motory. they examined it and said, it's not that typewriter. th they sent it back to molly. molly was a good agent. she knew how massive this case was. this case was not the normal case.vewas n you ask about the unabomb file, it was 59,000 volumes of information.,000 that translates over to
11,800,000 pages of documents. she knew that. she called out to another ages o supervisor and told him she had this document. she was sending it but she didn't want it to get lost in ding the stuff coming in. it she said, pay attention to it. even though the typewriter isn't the same, the ideas here are the exact to the ideas in the ideas manifesto. so joel got it and read it and got excited. he took it to terry and to our psychologist on the task force and they got excited. terry and jim were going to lunch. they took it to terry. terry said, oh, my god, we need to talk about this. he canceled his meeting with canc jim. h gave him some lame excuse and we went to lunch together with that document. as we were having lunch and reading the document, who walks e in but jim? he looked at terry and said -- so anyway, everyone got excited
about it. our task force, you have to our understand, relates to a to question you asked before, we tes to had come off of a very ct tha compelling suspect that jim had determined could not possibly be the unabomber. could the members a lot believed that ber. it was. they had worked hard, long, ey had exhausting hours. we said, man, we need to give them a break before we start on this again.them so we do a little reconnaissance, jerry does and talks to jim's setting. ta jim is gone for the afternoon. he won't be back.ngfor terry said, perfect. i can't withhold it from him. i will take it in and lay it on la his desk with a little yellow flynn on it and say we need to talk talk about this monday morning. terry and i go downstairs in the cafeteria and have coffee and relax.mornn we hadn't been there 15 minutes and this is a day of the pager and this and his pager is going off like crazy with the signal number in e
there that the boss wants to see s you.e that guess what? he didn't go home. he came back. the minute he read it, he got s wh excited. we went back up and terry talkedto him a to him and jim said, this is the man. this is the unabomber. we are turning the ship and -- we had 2,417 suspects. he was very perceptive. >> this document was -- 1973, n? that it was written? >> 1971. >> it was a treatise that ted kaczynski had written and given to his brother and his brother had kept that.o, i cam when you read the pages from same p that many years before and compared it to reading of the manifesto, i came to a conclusion the same person wrote it. others did as well. you can't take that to the bank. that does not get you a federal search warrant or a federal warrant. a lot more work to be done. but the gut feeling was there.archwaa wo
we started a study and started developing common phrases as well as thoughts common to both documents. as well as the letters that were being written by the unabomber. known writings of the unabombers versus the suspect writings of r f ted kaczynski.r and comparing it to a time line. we knew the unabomber had been in sacramento at a certain date kac when he dropped a package in theide mailbox. or mailed a letter from here andbe in it's postmarked from there. david kaczynski saved the outside envelopes which gave us dates where the unabomber had too jive v be in these cities at this time. we had this unabomb time line. and we had a ted kaczynski time line. they started to jive very well.ct we never found a conflict once ey, he between the two. but >> once we got the document from
the attorney, he didn't tell us who his client was, but jim to instituted an investigation all and over the country. agents were sent back to interface with him and meet with his client and to broker the deal.agents then in turn, david kaczynski and his wife agreed to meet with agents and talk.nd they in turn, agreed to take the go agents to chicago and talk with rtunat the mother and get letters and e documents over the years and other investigation was going on. i was fortunate or unfortunate enough to be sent a short time , so t later by these guys to montana in february to head the investigation there. while they were in the warmth ience and comfort of northern california. anyway, so there was a lot of things going on. the parts that were going on all over the country and being pulled together. >> i want to make sure that we get the audience into the conversation. we have a staffer there with a microphone. if you have a question, raise your hand. she will come to you. go over there. the first row.saaheou hseyoe to before -- i want to jump forward.
once you identified ted i kaczynski and knew where he was,ed there was another race against wa the clock against the media, which was cbs. tell us about what they had and the negotiations with them about not releasing it. nego >> that was an interesting time. because we were under very serious time constraints. once we had focused in or terry and i had come to the conclusion that ted kaczynski is a suspect is our man, there's a lot of work to be done. an investigation is two stages. one, you identify the on or perpetrator.i two, you put together the concl evidence that can stand up in uss a court and prove it. when we looked at ted kaczynski and max looked at him at is o first -- saw him first in n is t montana, here is this hermit one, y living in a cabin that had no t running water nor electricity, no means of heating other than a stove. but yet our laboratories told usd at he puts components in the bombs in where he melts aluminum. he has to have a kiln of many
some sort.at we found out he was doing it in electr the stove.ic there was many aspects about looking at ted kaczynski that didn't fit.inum. how did this man travel in all these places and carry bombs and place them when all he had for transportation was a bicycle? in the winter, he is snowed in.doing then to see him with his clothes falling off of him and a hermit lo that how did this man target university professors and heads a of corporations? it didn't fit in.place th not every one of our staff really believed that ted was a viable suspect. max was a holdout until we s searched the cabin.him >> i wondered if you felt that ermit the manifesto was released as sort of a feeling from ted profe kaczynski he was in competition with the terrorist who bombed e of the trade center and mcveigh who had blown up oklahoma city federal building? max >> we thought that might be the
case.n. terry, you in particular looked wo into that. the >> one of the first calls we made was to our profiler after the mcveigh bombing of the oklahoma city federal building. she pointed out very quickly to us that this was something done by somebody who wants to be a mass killer as opposed to the un bomber who kills from afar. those distinctions didn't seem to be something we could make a srt o final conclusion on were enough to convince people these are separate bombings. in fact, kaczynski put his plan ur in motion as mcveigh was putting his plan in motion.ts to be it was coincidental. that's an important question. if you think back to after 9/11 and the terrible tragedy of the twin towers, it was a week laterplan
in that up and down the east coast gy that's an important you had the anthrax attacks. there was a huge outcry and a we people that wanted specific anthr actions to take place.ax which would have unleashed a lot of significant weapons and issues. of because they thought the anthraxthey t was connected to 9/11, was all connected to hussein in iraq.ut it turns out we found other reasons to go into iraq.#"( these are the things that go on. if you look at the history of terrorism, you can see coincidences. i give you one more example. ooh receive was thinking of th putting bombs on 11 airplanes e yet
about the same time that yo kaczynski was threatening to put was a bomb on an airplane out of lax. was a the world is a resignificant, nowled complicated and yet aplace you ge>> you m have to tread in caution when you deal with terrorism. >> kaczynski was on a bus to sacramento when oklahoma city occurred. it was a popular theory, but he had no knowledge of oklahoma city. >> you misunderstood my eel question. did you feel he was in competition in that he felt he wasn't being noticed like the g back others reffing all the media coverage. t >> we did feel that way, even going back to 1993 and first world trade center bombing. we did feel that way. >> but he didn't know about oklahoma city. that wasn't competition. he was already setting his own plan in motion. >> a second question right there. >> in a case like this with all the bombings, how many bombings were
did it take before they connected that they were all from the same bomber? how often -- is 100% of your work when you are on the task force that work or do you do anything else? many >> no. once it was formed, we were 100%. we had anywhere from 40 fbi nt agents and similar amounts of dn't kno atf agents and postal inspectors working together full-time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, very few nights, very few vacations, long days and so forth.ey the other part of the question? >> how many bombings before you realized it was connected? his >> law enforcement in the late '70s didn't know about theea rl existence of a serial bomber tags until the fourth bombing. they concluded about the third bombing. if you follow this case at all, n't you know that in some of his left. early bombs, the unabomber started putting metal tags that aw were stamped with letters f.c. forcem in it. putti the reason he did that was
because law enforcement wasn't connecting the bombs that he had was left. he wanted credit. rather than depend upon law enforcement to connect them, he started putting his calling card in there so we would know. so he would get credit for what estigati he was doing.uestion >> i'm a retired customs agents. worked with the fbi in south florida.sovere you have an amazing organizationtake and investigative capability.ent i would like to ask a question related to mentions of sovereignty and national policy am takes precedent over law enforcement investigative priorities. h we have a recurring theme in american history of the lone bomber, lone assassin. in this case you did an amazing job and it was a lone bomber. lee harvey oswald, lone assassin. osama bin laden, sole person. world trade center 7, which wasn't been discussed in the media, discussed in seven seconds in new york city.a, dis the third tower that collapsed s in that day.e third how did bin laden do that? are you confident that there do weren't explosive devices used in seven as well as the other towers? also, as we approach the 50th at anniversary of the warren commission, e. howard hunt, former cia watergate convict confessed to being part of the plot and identified other cia
personnel as involved in the kennedy assassination before he l as died in 2007.vict media won't report it.eing final question then, would you believe lee harvey oswald was e the lone shooter?assass >> we will stop it there. if you want to take that. >> you asked a lot.l i think you kind of put your fingers on a lot of cases where many people have many questions. i would not even pretend to try and answer or give some sort of comfort to any particular ons. position. i think that i read the warren o commission report. i felt good about it. it looked like they covered a lot. looke there are people that don't de peop think that.le i think everybody who is interested in this and inte interested in terrorism should go
go back and look at some of the things that you mentioned and look at the cases you mentioned. can they can make up their mind. i think that bottom line for us botto as far as things like the world trade center, we have an er, we indict ment on a number of le people because of the world train center. in we have indictments in the coal bombing and embassy bombings. th the reason i think them up andey r they are important, you can read those and see interconnection between the characters that led to 9/11. led we can go all day, but that's what i would suggest.he m certainly appreciate your ck to assessment of things.three of >> as the mike gets to a m. question up there, i want to get back to the unabomber. him tell us about the first saw moment -- you were the first of ok the three of you to see him.stody. once you were surrounding the of cabin, what was the lure to get him out? to
>> first of all, i saw him a cal month before we actually took him into custody. be s i developed a good source of information who owned the property around him. we were trying to get a physical description of the cabin for the search warrant affidavit or arrest warrant affidavit. we had to be specific of what it looked like, where it was located. don't go to a court and say i want a search warrant or arrest warrant of this cabin in montana.above that was one of the jobs that jim task me to do. i walked up along with his earing h neighbor -- one of his neighborsponse up a skid road that brought lumber, trees out of the forest above him. as we were about 40 yards away ld from the cabin, out in the clearing he stuck his head out. my first response was, my god, age is that what we have been looking for all these years?5t&ñ he was a wild looking person. he had on an orange knit cap. you conjure up an image of who you think you are looking for over the years. we're listening as jim said to all these people telling us about power tools and all of
this stuff. as jthesing here is a guy living in this is a little cabin which downstairs in here that just amazed me. with that perspective in mind, when jim made the decision that we had to take him out of the cabin, another job that he had decisio given me was to develop an ake arrest plan for safety getting ted kaczynski out of that cabin. one thing that we promised his family was that we would arrest him humanely if they cooperated with us.umanel we wouldn't have a ruby ridge or waco standoff in which he would or be killed. so we had to develop a plan. so in my estimation, the plan was pretty simple. he had to come out some time. all the time i was up there, he wasn't coming out. he was staying in close he proximity to the cabin.e the plan had been to wait for upplie him to come out and go to town to get provisions, supplies or what have you.
as he pedalled his bike into ta town on a gravel road, we would zoom in and pounce on him and take him into custody.e well, we couldn't do that because of the demands of some people in the media who threatened to take it to a program that in the near future -- we didn't know if he had capability of monitoring the program. are we found out he had a radio in there, a battery operated radio. it was to develop a plan to get him out of the cabin safely. in developing this source, we g discussed that possibility.d that i was quite confident that we pos could trick him into coming out co of the cabin without him knowingof the who we were and why we were there.who we w if he got close enough to one of the three of us that approached the cabin, we would grab him. would we used a ruse.we we went up three of us. a four-service police officer in full police uniform who patrolled the area who kaczynski knew and who knew kaczynski, my
partner, our senior residents agent, who looks like a could you cowboy and myself. we let the police officer do all the talking. when you go on someone's private property in the mountains in particular, you just -- you are ntains trespassing.partic you don't walk on their property without permission. jerry started hailing him as we left the trail and went on his property. there was no response from in the cabin.s no the plan had been for jerry to do the talking because they knew one another. he would introduce us as people from a mining company who the from a surrounding property owner had leased the mining exploratory d rights for the coming summer to that company. summer he had told ted kaczynski that he had done that in december and ted was not happy. t but he had ensured ted that he would see to it that this mining company stayed off of ted's property when they came up. n they
of course, he didn't know that the reason ted kaczynski didn't want people around was he was experimenting with bombs and explosives and so forth. as we got up to the cabin, he p opened the door and jerry, the police officer said, hi, mr. kaczynski, i'm here with the men from the mining company. we need to see where your cornering posts are so they will ensure the employees don't trespass on yees d your land this summer when they come up here.aid, he said, my corner posts are adequately marked. jerry said, they are under snow. we could go out and dig around, but we thought it would be easier if you help us. he said, okay. un he took one step toward jerry.jer and jerry is a sizable guy.ry that was his big mistake. jerry grabbed him. it was not very dramatic. he started wrestling and fighting. big tom mcdaniel wrapped him up and they struggled and i got to walk around and had the d i
privilege that every fbi agent very enjoys which was taking my credentials out and saying, mr. y kaczynski, fbi. he looked at my weapon staring him at the nose and he complied. it was not dramatic. it was very easy and simple. it went like we planned it, thank god.ned >> we have time for one more question.for >> i was wondering if you could comment more on the manifesto festo itself.cument. i haven't read the full document. my understanding of it is that it focuses on the socialization and political theories and won psychology behind it. i was wondering what was i guess to the importance of the manifesto to ted kaczynski and how it bombing relates to the bombing itself? >> it was a philosophy of -- against technology. it wasn't -- the philosophy itself was not unique to ted kaczynski.he
but the way he expressed it was unique. that's what helped us out in the investigation and made it recognizable.us >> it was called industrial society and its future.veand it it was like a return to living s with little technology. ted kaczynski, a lot of people asked, ted was anger, revenge, motivated. we did huge studies on trying totivated. connect victims in this. what was the commonality? there was no commonality. he selected victims who were representational of things he didn't like. he didn't like university mmon professors. he he didn't like graduate he did students.n' he d he didn't like airlines.ychol he didn't like computers in the technology. and he didn't like psychologists. he went on -- i called him the t. equal opportunity hater. he hated anything and everything that wasn't him. he would act on it. he we took 22,000 pages of journals it
out of his cabin.ery we knew why he did what he did. there's no question about it. he wrote it down. he says very specifically, i have a lot of hate in me.ok in ea i'm doing this for no particular purpose other than revenge and react anger. >> we actually inserted in the -- in our book in each chapter has a quotation of ted's own words describing his motivations and his reaction to vestigat people that he had killed or people that he didn't kill, or ssion, the bomb malfunctioned t. he expressed regret that he didn't kill them. i think it adds an interesting flavor to our description of the investigation. >> this was actually the -- his passion, these words. when we had him as a suspect and had him arrested, we went back and found he had written editorials to the chicago tribune. had we been able to go back and thought about checking papers and been lucky to find some of these, it looked like the manifesto. chi g ma
he had been having these is thoughts and he had this grand vision of the way life should befo>> you n for many years. >> you need to understand, ted kaczynski had an iq of 170.duated he graduated from high school and went to harvard when he was f 16 years old. he went to the university of michigan and got his ph.d. in rs. mathematics in two years. we know that when he was at michigan, he wrote that he li had -- he was dedicating hisfe after life to going to the wilderness he to after he graduated and accumulate enough money to do this, going to the wilderness e. and beginning his campaign of terrorism and killing people he didn't like. this wasn't something that just occurred spontaneously. he had been forming this idea for many, many years.t >> we have run out of time. inv we invite you to our second ask floor dining room where you can ask further questions.
you have been watching american history tv. we want to hear from you. follow us on twitter at cspan history, connect with us on facebook. where you can leave comments and check out upcoming programs on our website. every saturday at 4:00 eastern it's history book shelf with the best known writers of the past decade. every saturday at 4:00 eastern here on american history tv on c sbs span 3. on c-span3. throughout 2014, c-span city tours features the history of communities throughout the country. here is a look at one of those cities.
the country. here is a look at one of those cities. ♪ we are standing here at historic fort sneling. it's the first foot hold in this region for united states expansion. during the early 1800s, you begin to have this idea spreading across the country of the manifest destiny to spread from sea to shining sea. it's the right to extend across north america. of course, that's problematic because there are other people who lived here first. the american indian nations.
in this region, that was primaryl-y the dakota. fort snelling establishes and it's a foothold for expansion. nothing was the same after it was established here. relations between american indians in this region and the united states government began to change. about 1650 the first europe yaps arrive in what would be minnesota. they are arriving because of the fur trade. they are interested in exchanging furs with the indians who lived north of here. they are exchanging for furs and manufactured goods. the fur trade is what really establishes european presence in this region. it goes on for over 200 years. it is because of the fur trade that the army eventually, united states army establishes a fort here. they are interested in protecting the fur trade interests once it becomes a part of the united states possession after the war of 1812. so the fur trade is the engine -- the economic engine that drives the united states' interests in the region. the dakota had their economy to a large part based on the fur trade throughout the 17 and 1800s. so when the fur trade begins to decline, that's when you see a shift in relations between the
people. >> aim, fire. >> in 1851, the treaties were signed, which the dakotas creed over 24 million acres of the their land to the united states. so then by the 1860s, you had divisions between those who wanted to maintain traditional way of life and those who didn't. you had food shortages. and you had increasing pressure from immigrants coming into the area. in 1862, the small group of dakota decided to declare war on the united states.
they began attacking civilians, trading posts, farms, settlements and there was a six-week war. solders from the fort were sent to fight in the war. as a result, dakota treaties were aboutry gated. they were for theed out of minnesota. fort snelling became the site. over the winter of 1862 and 1863, dakota, were held there. because of the living conditions, the poor quarters
there, many of them died. there was acts of violence against people in the concentration camp. it was a horrible place for them. it was part of this effort after the u.s. dakota war to remove the dakota from minnesota. what's really tragically ironic is that this place, which for many is seen as a place of birth of their people, is also a place of their confinement in a concentration camp and expulsion and genocide. it's important when you think about the story and the history of this region that you think beyond the walls of fort snelling. we try to push people to think more about what does it mean when all these cultures came together? what perspectives did they have on these historic events? you could look at a single eventyzv from multiple angles and multiple perspectives. that helps us think about the
world we live in today, how can we see things through someone else's eyes. how can we be more understanding of multiple perspectives? so you can look at the fort in multiple ways. you can look at it as the how can we be more understanding of multiple perspectives? you can look at the fort in multiple ways. you can look at it as the expansion of the united states and the pioneer spirit moving west, conquering the wilderness. or you could look at it as a place of interment for the dakota that we are here because of the u.s. dakota war of 1862. you could look at it as expansion and colonization of native lands by the united states government. there is the story of african-americans, free and enslaved. this is a place that was to be free of slavery. yet you have existence of slavery in the walls of the fort alongside free african-americans. so the fort is a wonderful way to explore the splex kprex tis of history and how people's choices and decisions shaped the world we live in today.
we are inside one of the furnished squad rooms in the stone barracks which wases the home for the enlisted men. one thing people notice here is there are only six beds. soldiers were required to sleep two to a bed box. each of these bunks would have had two soldiers sleeping in it. a soldier in the 1820s would recognize much of this as what he would have lived in.
it was used all the way up through the civil war this way. the only difference being during the 1860s they would have added an extra bunk on top of the beds. fort snelling was the central rendezvous for minnesota's volunteers and draftees during the civil war. at the end of the war they left and returned through the fort. the garrison fluctuated quite a bit depending upon the year you are looking at.
in the 1820s, most estimates are around 500 people would have been here at the fort. that's about 350 soldiers and about 150 civilians and enslaved people. that's a rough estimate.q $8÷ it fluctuated based on the goals of the army whether they wanted a large garrison. they were called off fighting that war. of course by world war ii the number skyrockets. during the period that the united states was involved over 300,000 men and women passed through fort snelling as they were inducted into military service. it depends on the historic area you look at. bottom line is this was a busy place throughout much of its
history. we are standing in front of the place we believe dred and har ayatollah scott lived when they were at fort snelling between 1836 and 1840. when guests of the fort hear the story of the enslaved people that were here, many are surprised. they may have heard of dre d scott in high school history, a long time ago. they didn't know he lived here. they didn't know he and his family were herement they didn't know the institution of slavery existed this far north. it surprises a lot of people. we hope learning about these people whose stories are important and realizing what happened here at the fort really impacted american history. the scotts' experience here informed part of the legal case when they sued for freedom throughout the 1840s and 50s. part of their time means they should be free. the case when the to the united states supreme court. because of the dred scott decision in 1857. it's stated dre d and harriet didn't have the right to sue in court.
as african-americans, as black people they were not citizens of the united states. also that the missouri compromise which limited where slavery could exist in the country was unconstitutional. enslaved human beings at the time were property, not people. it furtherered the divide between the north and south prior to the civil war. one of the direct causes leading up to the rupture in the 1860s,
the fighting in the civil war had its origin right here with dred and harriet scott. evidence about the daily lives of enslaved people here at the fort is scarce. we believe that they were primarily working in what'sle called domestic slavery. that's cooking, cleaning, doing domestic chores for their owners. in this case, mostly they were officers here at the fort. dred and harriet scott, for example, belonged to dr. john emerson. he was the post surgeon. they would have been in his kitchen. the enslaved people working under that type of condition would have been living inside the places that they worked. so for a long officer's quarters down in the basement kitchens, we believe that's where the majority of the enslaved people working and living would have been and it's arguable that this is the place for the first major african-american community and what would become minnesota right here at fort snelling. it was a stone fort. you don't have the context around it. you miss out on the important role it played, not just in minnesota's history but in national history.
you are miss the narrative. you miss the whole point of this being here. if uh you don't have the large wrapping around it , you will miss out on the other stories. all the other stories that shape the history. they may not have realized it at the time. what those people did shaped the world that their descendents would live in. our world is shaped by what people did then. if we think in terms of a small piece, you can't get the full story. the full amazing, complex, diverse story. >> to learn more about the cities on the 2014 tour and watch videos from sites throughout the country, visit c-span.org/local content. this is american history tv on c c-span3. the c-span cities tour takes
us on the road traveling to u.s. cities to learn about their history and literary life. we partnered with time warner cable for a visit to austin, texas. >> we are in the private suite of lyndon and ladybird johnson. this was private quarters for the president and first lady. when i say private, i mean it. this is not part of a tour that's offered to the public. this has never been opened to the public. you're seeing it because of c-span's special access. vips come into this space as they did in lyndon johnson's day. it's not open to our visitors on
a daily basis. the remarkable thing about the space is it's really a living, breathing artifact. just down the brock is the colorado river. there is a document in the corner of the room signed by, among others, the archivist of the united states and ladybird johnson telling my predecessors, myself and my successors that nothing this this room can change. to my left down the block is the colorado river. this is an important site in the city's history. this is where waterloo was. it was a cluster of cabin occupied by four or five familieses including j. carol. i'm standing at the spot where the cabin was. this is where mirabella mar was when he and the rest got word of a big buffalo herd in the vicinity. they jumped on the horses, congress avenue -- wasn't the avenue. it was a muddy ravine then that led north to the hill where the capitol sits. the men galloped on the horse s. they stuffed their belts full of pistols and rode into the midst of the buffalo firing and shouting.
lamar at 8th and congress shot this enormous buffalo. from there he went to the top of the hill to where the capitol is. he told everybody this should be the seat of a future empire. >> watch our oh eventses from austin saturday at noon eastern on c are-span 2's book tv and sunday afternoon at 2:00 on american history tv on c-span 3. >> during this holiday season on c-span 3 american history tv. today's focus on spies and rogues. first a look at the relationship between benedict arnold and george washington. then a discussion about russia, cold war spies and the u.s. nuclear program. later, espionage during world war i. >> peterenriques looks at how