Skip to main content

tv   Discussion on President Lincoln  CSPAN  May 9, 2015 8:16am-11:36am EDT

8:16 am
for all the lives are were lost and sacrificed to save the union and and slavery -- end slavery. >> american history tv was live in oak ridge, illinois, for the 150th anniversary of president lincoln's funeral. coming up next, all of our programming for earlier, including a -- after, we hear from historian michael bloom again -- michael burlingame as he reflects on the ceremony in springfield. >> you're watching "american history tv," on c-span. you're looking at live picture from oak ridge cemetery from illinois for the 150th anniversary of president lincoln's funeral. you see richard hart joining us from the cemetery.
8:17 am
your book is "-- tell us what we are going to see today, what is going to happen behind you and all around you this afternoon. >> thank you. today, you're going to see a reenactment of the funeral of abraham lincoln in springfield 100 50 years ago. it started on the square downtown. it will take probably a half an hour for the procession to reach oak ridge cemetery, which is on the north side of springfield. that procession will be a reconstruction or reenactment of lincoln's actual funeral. there will be a number of divisions, with reenactors in those divisions. you will see a replication of the funeral hearse that was put together by a local funeral
8:18 am
home. i believe you are going to see a horse, which would have in abraham lincoln's horse, bob led by an african-american henry brown, coming into the cemetery. and then in back of me is the receiving vault at oak ridge cemetery. it is there that lincoln's body as well as his son with -- his son, willie, were placed at the time of the lincoln funeral. >> why was president lincoln buried in springfield, illinois? >> this was his home for 24 years before he went to washington, d.c. only a short time before he left springfield, oak ridge cemetery was created. mary and abraham lincoln were present on the day the cemetery was dedicated and all of the dedicatory speeches were made.
8:19 am
the apocryphal story is that on the way home, abraham lincoln said to mary that " this is where i would like to be buried." >> you mentioned mary todd lincoln. yet she did not attend the funeral in springfield. she did not leave washington, d.c., and travel with the train to springfield. why is that? richard: mary todd lincoln's life was one -- she had to face many, many tragedies and this was perhaps the greatest of all . her husband being assassinated next to her. and she was rightfully devastated by that. and was just not emotionally capable of making that trip. back to springfield. her son, robert todd lincoln was there with her. and he did, to springfield for the funeral. >> if you look on your screen
8:20 am
there, we see some of the reenactors. you may have seen the tens of a moment ago. who are those folks in the tents and how long have they been camped out? richard: i think some of them have been here since last wednesday and perhaps that is when they first came but thursday night when i was out here, we came out after dinner. it was just -- a lot of the tents were up at that time, and as i say, it was a beautiful scene. it was almost full, the moon. it was beautiful and the oak ridge cemetery gate, which is the original gate to the cemetery was lit up and across the road in lincoln park where the tents, with the fires they had lit for the evening. >> we are talking with richard hart, a springfield resident and
8:21 am
an expert on the subject of abraham lincoln's funeral. tell me, president lincoln died here in washington on april 15. his funeral, may 4 in , springfield, illinois. what happened in the intervening period of time? what was going on in a couple of weeks back in 1865? bridget: those days between the -- richard: those days between the time of his assassination in return and burial in springfield are kind of somewhat the subject of the book that i have here. it was filled with a lot of distress in the nation as to what was occurring. as far as lincoln's body, it was taken to the white house. there was an autopsy. it was embalmed and placed in a coffin. there were viewings there and it
8:22 am
was eventually taken to the train station and placed in a cattle car owned i one of the directors of the railroad. the funeral train left washington d.c. and had a number of people on the train. some of them had actually taken the train with lincoln from springfield to washington, d.c. in 1861. the train made a very long, long journey from washington, d.c. to springfield and went through some of the major cities in the east. richard: -- there were large tributes to lincoln in new york city. the story is that teddy roosevelt watch the procession in new york city from one of the windows.
8:23 am
the train supposedly would not exceed 30 miles an hour. all of the tracks were cleared for this train, and there was a lead train that went before it to make certain that the tracks were clear. it eventually ended up in chicago, and there was an enormous funeral in chicago, lasting a couple of days with the viewing of the body at the courthouse. then the train made an overnight journey from chicago to springfield, arriving on the morning of may 4. from chicago to springfield at every crossing, in the middle of the night, there would be people gathered, often with bonfires , and in many instances, there were large arches that had been built over the train tracks.
8:24 am
they were decorated with evergreens flowers. even in the middle of the night there would be hundreds of thousands of people that would come out to view the train. >> for our viewers later today we have a couple of more things we will show folks about the train. we will take a look at the train station there in springfield and have a bit more about president lincoln's train. how many people came to spring field in 18 -- in 1865 for the funeral and the events surrounding it? richard: that is an amazing question. the number is not certain but springfield at that time had a population of about 15,000 people. the estimate is between 75,000 and 100,000 people came to springfield for the funeral. there were special trains from many of the midwestern cities that came into springfield.
8:25 am
and the people would stay on those trains for sleeping purposes. and remarkably, it was the first time a pullman train had been used, and it was a sleeping car. because of that use during the lincoln funeral, it gained acceptance by the railroads as another aspect of a passenger train. that was one of the things that came out of the lincoln funeral. >> again, we are looking at live pictures from springfield, illinois. a reenactment today of the funeral of president lincoln. we are talking to richard hart who is there in springfield. we see some of the folks dressed up, the ring actors uniform and in costume. are these local reenactors or do people come from all over the country to participate in this event today? richard: that's a wonderful question.
8:26 am
i was out here two days ago, and a couple from orlando, florida were here. they were dressed in period costumes that were absolutely spectacular. they were taking each other's picture, so i offered to take their pictures together. that is where i got to have this conversation with them. they had come for this event from orlando, florida. in fact, she gave me this funeral badge -- i do not know if you can see that or not -- that she had made to hand out to people in springfield. since then, i have met a number of reenactors were from many of the midwestern states. i meant -- i met a gentleman lancaster, pennsylvania and his reenactment group had come out. i met a gentleman who came with his military gun on a trailer.
8:27 am
he was from wisconsin. so i think there is really kind of a subculture of reenactors in the united states. they have been here, and many of the people you see in costumes i think, are from out of town. many are from springfield, but it is hard to tell how to divide where they are from. it is a pretty broad spectrum. >> my understanding is you have lived in springfield for 47 years, most of your life. what is the mood of the springfield area, the springfield community about this reenactment? are people excited to host this event? a lot of the participation from everybody in the area? richard: yes. it is actually just remarkable. if you look at the schedule of events over the last several
8:28 am
days -- and perhaps you can hear in the background, there's a band playing. there have been at least 10 different band concerts in the last two days. the churches around springfield and these band concerts are reenactors. the bands come from all over the united states. they want to exhibit their abilities. they have had band concerts. there was a symphony last evening -- the illinois symphony orchestra played a special program of lincoln music. there have been a number of lectures. this morning i spoke in the st. paul's cathedral church, and it was packed. there are -- at the edwards home, they are having a
8:29 am
reenactment tea. it is just a phenomenal participation by the entire community for this event. i think that everyone recognizes the importance of lincoln in our national life, and they just want to be a part of that, to honor him and to commemorate his death 150 years ago. >> there at the cemetery you can see richard hart springfield resident and author. we have given you the chance to ask him questions. we have divided the phones by time zones.
8:30 am
i'm going to ask you now the procession making its way to the ceremony and a reenactment of the actual speeches, are those historically accurate. will they be accurate to what took place 150 years ago? richard: i believe so. i have seen the program and compared it to the program 150 years ago. i think very much exactly the same. i think it will be exciting to see that. >> who are some of the notable figures that attended abraham lincoln's funeral in springfield 150 years ago and will those persons be portrayed today? who were the who's who at the lincoln funeral? richard: there were many. many of the generals of the civil war were in attendance for
8:31 am
the funeral. in addition, there were people who had come here to participate in the funeral. reverend simpson had come. he was the prominent minister in the united states at that time, a very prominent minister. he came and delivered the primary eulogy for abraham lincoln. in addition to that, there were photographers that came. from philadelphia to chicago -- from philadelphia, from chicago. there were reporters that came from the newspapers, the new york papers, the washington papers. one of the gentlemen that came who was a relatively young reporter at that time went on to found the associated press. many of the photographs that these photographers took while
8:32 am
here in springfield are still in existence. there is an exhibit in springfield that has all of those photographs. >> after abraham lincoln's assassination, andrew johnson became president, is that right? richard: yes. >> did he attend the funeral? richard: no, he did not. >> why not? richard: you have to remember that in addition to this funeral transpiring at that time, it was in a period of 90 days in american history, you had the congress passing the 13th amendment, freeing the slaves. it had to be approved by the states not done until december of that year, but that occurred. you have linked in delivering his second inaugural address, a masterpiece. and then you had secretary blinken delivering a speech
8:33 am
saying he believed that certain black man should be allowed to vote. you had general robert e lee surrendering to grant in bringing about the closing of the civil war. the country was euphoric after that. and then within a matter of a week, you have lincoln assassinated, and everyone went into extreme morning -- mourning. because of that, there was a lot of uncertainty about the government. and what happened. many of the government people just stayed in washington, i think. there was also the search for john wilkes booth and any of the conspirators that participated in the murders. that took the front page of many newspapers, so you had a variety of things occurring, and the people who came to springfield and they were numerous from out of springfield and were high up, but the successor to lincoln did
8:34 am
not attend. >> as we approach 3:00 on the east coast, 2:00 at your time, in illinois, let's take our first caller. angela from little rock. hi, you are on c-span. go ahead. caller: i just have a general question. host: hello, angela. richard: hello, angela. host: i do not think we have angela. are you there? no angela. let me ask -- i'm sorry? we are going to work on our phone call there, and as we tried to get that put together let me ask another question. you've got that procession making its way up. what would be the accuracy of some of the costumes we are seeing?
8:35 am
we are seeing union soldiers there is a woman there in -- are these accurate period costumes these reenactors are wearing? richard: absolutely. they are very accurate. the ladies walking toward, what did you had walked -- on the screen before, and that is the original gate to oak ridge cemetery. a year ago, that did not exist. where we are sitting his -- this afternoon and where that lady is walking was pretty much a field of weeds and bramble. if you look in the background there, you see the oak ridge cemetery gate. that was re-created this year based upon photographs of the period. it's an absolutely wonderful reconstruction. it was dedicated in december of last year. and it is through those gates the procession will come. it was done, quite frankly
8:36 am
because of this event today, but it will remain and be a part of the cemetery. it connects to lincoln park which is immediately to the east. it has become a part of this total neighborhood and the people of the neighborhood will be able to use it as a way to get into the cemetery. what you're looking at now, is across the street to the east of that sign, where you actually see their reenactor tents and encampment there. they are in absolute accurate costumes. they are fanatics about this. about every aspect of not only their costumes, but there tents the flags, the food they eat the bedding they have. everything is a re-creation of the period they represent.
8:37 am
that is what i was telling the other evening when i came out here. it was beautiful. the white tents. the moonlight hitting them. they had fires going. it was really something. you can see now people walking on the sidewalk from that entrance. host: we are going to try one more time with the phone calls. we are going to see if we can get bob from tulsa, oklahoma with us and our guest. bob, go ahead, you are on c-span 3. caller: my question is regarding the link in children. are they and tuned in the tomb. also, i understand that robert lincoln was at the final internment of abraham lincoln . is he buried there? richard: yes, the children are buried there, except for robert. robert todd lincoln, by all accounts, wished to be buried
8:38 am
there. he was survived by his wife and she thought he deserved his own separate identity and monument. so he is buried in washington, d.c. it is very interesting. before he died, his son tom died in england and was brought back to the united states and was actually very -- buried with his grandfather abraham. when robert died tom was taken , out of this cemetery and taken back to washington to be buried with his father. to answer your question robert todd lincoln is not buried here. all of the other family members are. robert todd is buried in washington, d.c.. host: let's take another call.
8:39 am
we will go to boise, idaho. caller: good afternoon. on this very sad memorial day. mr. hart, i have another question about robert todd lincoln. how did he get to the cemetery? i read somewhere he was staying a couple of days in washington to console his mother and then he let tad take care of her while he headed out the internment. richard: you are absolutely correct. this is one of the very interesting things that i found when i was doing the research for the book on the funeral in springfield. robert todd lincoln apparently did not intend to come to springfield for his father's funeral. david davis, who was a supreme court justice and who had been the judge of the circuit here in illinois where secretary blinken practice law, went to the white house immediately upon the death of lincoln and assembled all of
8:40 am
his letters and documents, took them with him back to bloomington. but he stopped in chicago for a memorial to lincoln by the chicago bar association. after that meeting, he sent a telegram, which i found, to i will paraphrase it -- telegram to robert todd lincoln. i will paraphrase it, but it basically said, "robert, it is imperative you come to springfield. after talking to all of your father's friends here in illinois, to a man they said , that if you do not that you would regret it for the rest of your life. i have prepared a train to take you and you should make preparations to come immediately." of course, after that kind of admonition from david davis robert got on the train and did
8:41 am
come to springfield. he stayed here for several days. at least. he selected the spot and sent the selection to his mother, where he eventually -- where eventually the monument would be constructed. it is right about the receiving vault on top of the hill behind me. perhaps you will be able to see that later on. host: once again we are live on c-span three springfield illinois the reenactment of , president abraham lincoln's funeral. making some room. for your phone calls. we have separated the numbers by time zones. we go to idaho with our guest. caller: i want to thank c-span3 for offering this program today.
8:42 am
i was born and raised 30 miles from springfield in lincoln county. a town called taylorville. my question for mr. hart is what, if any role, did his former law partner play in the funeral? richard: that is a very interesting question. william herndon, who was lincoln's law partner at the time, he left springfield. there was a love-hate relationship. lincoln loved him and mary todd lincoln hated him. herndon played some role, but nothing significant in the funeral. i found it curious myself, when i was doing this research, that he did not play a larger part. some of the other townsfolk in springfield played a much
8:43 am
larger part in arranging for the funeral and making the decisions about what is to be done in planning the funeral. herndon really was not much a part of that. i do not know if people know about the controversy as to where in springfield lincoln was to be buried. the local people that were his relatives and friends all wanted him to be buried in the center of springfield on what is now the site of the illinois state capital. at that time, it was a private residence on a hill. it was kind of a high ground. these men and the city of springfield bought the property and had a vault built between
8:44 am
the period of the time of the death of lincoln and his arrival in springfield. mary lincoln very much did not want that to occur and she threatened to remove him from springfield or would not allow him to be carried to springfield if that was done. she insisted he be buried in oak ridge cemetery. her wishes won out. host: we will move on and take a call from florida. terry, go ahead. you are on the air. caller: i would like to thank c-span3 for this program. as a retired military officer and teacher of american history. my question is i understand that after he was placed in the tomb that there were threats to steal or attempt to steal the body. i was told he had been moved out of there and place in the
8:45 am
caretaker -- buried elsewhere until the possible threats were taking care of. and that he was later reinterred back in. i understand for a period of time, people were visiting the tomb and the body may not have been there. i would like to find out how accurate that is. richard: that's very interesting. we are getting far past the time of the actual funeral. to recount, where he was initially placed was the receiving vault. and that receiving vault was for general use, when people could not be buried immediately. it was not just for lincoln. between the time he was buried in may and december of 1865, there was a vault built on the back -- on the side of this hill. he and willie were moved into
8:46 am
that vault in december of 1865. there was then a lincoln monument association formed and they picked the site. robert todd was involved with that. on the top of the hill. it was there they built the first monument. it was from that monument, and you're seeing it now on the screen this is where lincoln was , buried today. but that is the site of the construction of the lincoln monument. it was redone. i do not remember the exact date but after it was redone, this is the final monument. there were attempts to steal his body. it was almost like a much and just show as far as the people who were involved. they failed to do it. because of that threat or
8:47 am
possibility of lincoln's body being stolen, the final internment of lincoln was that a hole was dug, his body was placed into it, and then concrete was poured. he now lies in that tomb in back of me. but he is under many feet of concrete. i can -- sometime, you should research or go and ask about the number of times that lincoln was actually exhumed and reburied. there is a number of them. you're right. there may have been a period where people were in the tomb, looking at what they thought to be the final burying site of lincoln when he was not in that actual site. he might have been somewhere within that tomb. host: we go along with more calls for our guest, richard hart. we go up to chicago with melody.
8:48 am
caller: hello, how are you. richard: how are you? caller: i am fine. what i wanted to know, i was sitting here listening watching the events on tv and everything. one question happens a come to my mind. game being the president and all, i cannot really remember if he was basically in the war or the military or something, but i was wondering if there was at any time, and he thought of him may be having him buried at arlington national cemetery? i was just kind of wondering about that. richard: oh, yes. as far as lincoln's actual military record, he was in the black hawk war in springfield back in the 1830's.
8:49 am
he was a captain. but then obviously as commander-in-chief, he would be entitled to be buried in arlington. i don't know of any suggestion that he was and i'm not certain as to when arlington came into existence. there was talk about the possibility of burying him in the capital building in the vault that had been planned for george washington. but that was not done. his body did lie in state in the capital. the only place i know of that was considered in addition to springfield was washington, d.c. and perhaps chicago. there was some talk of that. i think it was part of the back and forth between mary, lincoln, and the springfield people over where he would be buried in
8:50 am
springfield. i believe at some point she said we will just take him to chicago and bury him there. but i am not certain that was very serious. that is a very good question. about arlington. that was not considered. host: we are going to move forward and get one more call in right now. we go to fredericksburg, virginia. it is bobby for richard hart. caller: i am sitting with tears in my eyes. my mother is at oak ridge cemetery. she was buried there in 1982. that was the first time i had ever been out there. when she was buried. i did get to see the vault which was open at that time. the new one. i did see the old vault, and i wonder if you're going to talk -- you started talking about the different places where he was. i remember a documentary
8:51 am
on c-span probably, about the old bald and how these people came in the middle of the night thinking they were going to rob , his body and take it away. i just wanted you to talk about that, because where he is now is beautiful. i did go there my mother is , there. the old vault was quaint and interesting and i wonder what you can tell us about that. richard: are you asking about the receiving vault where he will be buried today or where he was buried 150 years ago? caller: you said in the hill and it is low to the ground. i remember picturing it in my mind. it was white i think on the side of the hill. was that what they called it the receiving vault? richard: the receiving vault -- the receiving vault it is right , in back of me. i do not know if the camera can show it or not. i am sitting on the other side of the road opposite the receiving vault. that is what i was talking about earlier.
8:52 am
can you see it there now? can you see the receiving vault? there is an angle shot, i believe. there you are, can you see that? host: i think the caller is not there, but we can see it. richard: that is the receiving vault. as i said, that was built by the cemetery weight -- way in advance of lincoln's death. it was used basically to hold bodies until the ground might thaw in the they could dig a grave. or people would not have decided where they would dare he somebody. they would put them in that receiving vault until conditions were right for burial. it is almost fortuitous that it was there and lincoln's body was brought there, together with
8:53 am
willie's, his little son who died in washington. they were put in the vault in 1865 and then they were moved into the vault further up on the hill that was held. they were moved in december of 1865. further up on the hill, you will see the actual monument that is there today. that was built in later years. as far as the stealing of the body, i don't think it was done while it was in either the receiving vault or the vault on the hill. it was later on. i claim no expertise in that area of history. i think there are some good books you might look into on the description of the stealing of lincoln's body or the attempt is to it. host: we are live. a beautiful afternoon in springfield, illinois.
8:54 am
the oak ridge cemetery. a live reenactment today of the funeral ceremony for president abraham lincoln. this is the 150th anniversary of that event. we are going to carry the entire re-created funeral here on c-span for you. our guest is richard hart, he has been sharing some of his expertise on the subject. as we wait for the folks dressed up in the funeral procession and period costumes to make their way up to the cemetery, let's take you to the town of elgin where david cloak of cloak construction has been building a replica of the train car that carried president lincoln's coffin to springfield some 150 years ago. >> the car was standing in and was built for the president. he never road in it when he was -- rode in it when he was alive. he was kind of a common man.
8:55 am
he didn't want to ride in his -- in this car because he had , soldiers dying everywhere and he thought this was too fancy to ride in while the war was on. he was supposed to look at this car the day he died, april 15. of course, he did not make that eight. it was built as a private car for him by the military in alexandria, virginia as a filler job to keep the shops busy. i still don't understand how they did that. with all the war effort and everything, i thought they would have been really busy. but they managed to build this car. they are not sure who order the car, they think stanton did, he was the secretary of war. after his death they converted , it to a funeral car. >> what happened to the original train after the funeral in 1865? >> the union pacific owned it. they owned it for quite a while and then they sold it to a
8:56 am
railroad in colorado. they ended up buying a railroad back. they ended up with the car again. then they sold it to some man who took it on tour. he was going to take it to minnesota and build a new -- build a building to sit in. it was sitting in minneapolis and then some kids started a prairie fire and it got burnt. it was a really fancy car. it would have been the air force one of his day. it is pretty well decorated. it is going to be a beautiful reproduction of the car. as close as we can get. we think 95% accurate. we have had a lot of volunteers do the woodwork and upholstery. we had three guys show up that did the upholstery work at the right time. everyone seems to come when we need them. i have two period locomotives.
8:57 am
a 1986 locomotive. and then we build another one for a group. after that, i kind of always wanted to build a car. what better card to build than a historic car lincoln's funeral car. it is the only one made by this and the only one owned by the government. they always leased their cars. i had friends in california and we talked about building a car and we kind of kicked it around and decided to build a lincoln funeral car. it is a funeral car. it is going to go on and bn educational tool. a lot of people will get to see this car and be able to see what it was like in they were pretty 1864. nice. >> how how long have you been working on this? >> altogether, five years. about three. we were talking about last night when we laid the floor boards.
8:58 am
after the frame was built, was last march. i think we have done well. this would have been a parlor room at one time, but this is where willie's coffin was. he was on this end. lincoln was on the other end. we were trying to create the funeral room and then we will decorate that like it would have been for the funeral. we will leave it as the way it was before it was decorated for the funeral. we do not have pictures of the car but we do have descriptions of how it was decorated. that was from alexandria virginia. someone had the foresight to interview people who worked on the car before they passed away. i think it was in the 1920's. >> what was this central room? >> that would have been his state room or bedroom. we think. there's not a lot of description about it. we kind of decorated like the
8:59 am
period >> what are some of the of time. >> what are some of the pieces in that room? >> we put a bed in. it is a period bed. we have a lady that was really into history. she is a reenactor. she bought this furniture and had it redone. what was in here was kind of lost in history. >> the third room will be more designed as his you know all room, where his coffin will be there with two chairs which came , off of a slavery plantation. they were there to guard the coffin. we will have them set up on either side and have the black drape on the curtains. the carpeting, the exact same company that made the carpeting for lincoln's funeral house also made this carpeting. it is completely an 18th century period carpeting, which was made
9:00 am
on a loom. they actually had to hand stitch some of the fabric together. we went with this color because in the descriptions, they talk about forest green princeton -- crimson green leather. , that's how we came up with this color. >> there were 26 states in the union when mr. lincoln died. we put all of the 26 states, even the southern states. mr. lincoln was all about the union. we figured he would want that in here. these lamps we had made in california. we re-created what we think of the lamps would look like from the description the etching on the windows, we knew that from a window that a
9:01 am
guy in minneapolis has, so we were able to get that patching. that is correct. i have a guy in tucson who has built several models, and he is our technical advisor. he doesn't have a lot of detail on the inside of the car but on the outside he was instrumental in getting the color. several windows have survived. be clear story windows -- the clerestory windows here, we have a man who owns one, so we know the color is correct. the inside, this sort of off-white, they call it the zinc white. that is an old terminology. we have a lot of. -- pictures of the outside of the car, in pittsburgh and new york. we think we pretty much nailed the bunting. they're supposed to be more striving and stuff on the car but funding is a little low here for that.
9:02 am
goldleaf is not cheap. >> the railings are different on each end. we have a full railing on this end with the door, which was handmade by a blacksmith, which was really interesting to see. on the other end, we do not have the full railing. because that is what they used to roll the coffin in out of the doorway. >> the trucks are brought up to modern specifications, steel frames. back in the day, they would have been woodframe trucks with a dual gauge wheel which derailed about every time they went through a switch, so that was not a good idea. it fell out of favor quickly. after the war, they built everything standard gauge, which was mr. lincoln's idea also. he signed a rule that american railroads would be standard gauge. he wanted to tie the east and west together. he really wanted to tie california to the union, and he
9:03 am
signed the transcontinental railroad act. he did a lot of things for this country that people don't realize. >> the real significance is that , we really just wanted to re-create history. it is a once-in-a-lifetime project. we really want to educate people, especially the youngest generation on how people traveled back then. lincoln was just a magnificent man. he had a great vision. when he decided to sign the railroad act and brought the central union and pacific together. so we had railroad tracks across the country, and that is what made america america. lincoln had a wonderful vision. it is the 150th anniversary, and we are very passionate about the project. and about lincoln himself. it was lincoln who actually inspired dave to build the
9:04 am
leviathan, the locomotive engine. with that, the 150th anniversary was around the corner, he felt the need to build this. he felt like this generation needed to make this happen on the 150th anniversary. >> live again here from springfield, illinois on american history tv here on c-span three. the reenactment 150 years later of president abraham lincoln's funeral. we have been waiting for reenactors. participants are making their way up the road to the cemetery with us. our guest, springfield resident lawyer, author and rock until her richard -- raconteur, richard hart. richard, you are wearing a
9:05 am
ribbon on your suit lapel. is that historically accurate? richard: well, i don't know if it is historically accurate. i believe it is. a lady gave that to me yesterday so i told her i would wear it today. there are a number of people out here that had the ribbons on. historically, there were a number of these ribbons that were made. some people still have them. they are on exhibit in some of the museums. >> you can start to see it on your monitor, the procession making its way up the street. can you tell us a bit about what we are seeing? richard: well, can you hear the bell ringing? >> we sure can. richard: that is the bell from the old tower here in the
9:06 am
cemetery. it was wrong, i don't think it was here at the time, but it is being rung to announce the procession into oak ridge cemetery. you are now seeing one of the first divisions marching in full uniform. they are coming in very slowly. uh-oh, i lost it, i lost the hookup. >> we will let you find it, richard. as we do that, we will watch the procession very solemnly reenactors making their way up the street. let's watch and listen here on
9:07 am
c-span three. [bell tolls] [bell tolls] [bell tolls] richard: all right. i can see a little more now. it looks as if the first part of this is a military band walking
9:08 am
very slowly, and, i don't know who the lady is in front here, but she certainly is not in proper military gear. you can see their instruments and they are of the period. directly in back of them is one of the regiments. they are walking down what is known as 1st street. it is somewhat of a hill that they come down into the valley, where we sit. then they will come through the gate that we talked about earlier, which was the original gate into oak ridge cemetery. there, you see the gates. now it is being opened. through the gates, you can see some of the camps of reenactors
9:09 am
where they stayed. >> were funerals like this a common occurrence for a prominent citizen, or was this unique to abraham lincoln? richard: i think the victorian customs were much more elaborate than what we have today. but i think it was conceded that this was the ultimate funeral of all times. in history. as far as victorian funerals, it was the ultimate. in victorian funerals, but also in just the history of mankind. i think i don't know how many millions of people viewed the train and the body as it came back to springfield. as i said, they were probably 100,000 visitors in springfield for the funeral.
9:10 am
>> would those visitors have lined this route we are looking at now? lined up watching this procession? richard: they would have. they would have been in this valley, where i'm sitting. and they were divided into divisions. the people that marched in this procession. it was by their military unit. they were may sonic divisions clergy -- masonic divisions clergy divisions, lawyer divisions. it went on and on. the official order is very interesting to read, as far as enumerating all these different institutions and military groups. >> richard, i want to interrupt you quickly. we just saw their, i don't know if you could hear it, we saw some military reenactors doffing
9:11 am
their hats and doing the huzzah. is that a common form of respect? richard: i believe so. they are now entering the gates. you can see they are just coming through the gate. you can see them, just the drum i believe. i don't believe they are playing any instruments, just a slow drumbeat, like a dirge. do you see them? >> let's listen to them as this procession makes its way into oak ridge cemetery. our live coverage of this 150th anniversary reenactment. richard: here is, this is the hearse that you see now. >> one of those things on the top of the hearse?
9:12 am
richard: this hearse was loaned to the city of springfield for this funeral by a funeral director in st. louis. this was the hearse of all hearses. it has been reconstructed by the family here in springfield, in great detail and great accuracy by veterans, and i believe they are here today. they have done an absolutely outstanding job of that detail and accuracy. i believe those are ostrich plumes, that you can see on the hearse. the horses, i believe some of these horses are from the amish around sullivan, illinois.
9:13 am
they have these workhorses. i believe these are they. they lease them out for this occasion. the first part of the procession is now approaching the receiving wall. you might not perhaps hear the drumbeat. just a slow and urge -- a slow dirge. [bell tolls]
9:14 am
[bell tolls] richard: it appears the hearse is now stopped waiting. >> richard general joseph hooker was the marshall in chief. can you tell us who he was historically, and why he was the marshall for the funeral of president lincoln?
9:15 am
richard: very good question. i had lunch today with michael burlingame, a lincoln scholar who knows just about everything about the civil war. i asked him that very question, because i did not know. he said that he did not know either. hooker had a rather interesting career. he had been in the united states military, but up and down. he had been both successful and also lost several battles. but he was in charge of this, of the military aspects of it. he was in charge of this procession. and he was very fond of the women.
9:16 am
that's how the name "hooker" got attached to certain aspects of -- now you see the beautiful beautiful hearse. six horses pulling it. absolutely gorgeous. drums beating in a very slow drumbeat. you can see the instruments perhaps, of the band. you are looking now at the hearse as it begins to make its approach into the gates. >> richard, what about, as we can see in the hearse, the coffin? that is a re-creation of the actual coffin of lincoln.
9:17 am
is there something special, i assume, a-make coffin for the president? richard: it was. a group of people who did an amazing amount of research on the accuracy, what they rebuilt for this occasion. it has been on display. i have seen it. it is absolutely gorgeous, and they have done a wonderful wonderful job. here comes now the reverend hendrie brown -- henry brown with the horse of abraham lincoln. he is a black man. he was an underground railroad conductor who worked for the lincolns. he was living in quincy, and he came to springfield to lead lincoln's horse in the funeral. you can see that. that's very moving.
9:18 am
in back of me now the soldiers have lined up in front of the receiving vault awaiting the approach of the carriage. you can see the pallbearers lined up walking with the hearse. many of the pallbearers are descendents of the original pallbearers at the time of the burial. one of them is robert stewart. his grandfather was john todd stewart, who was the first law partner of abraham lincoln. he is in the procession today.
9:19 am
now the carriage is approaching the receiving vault. it has become very quiet. and you can see the pallbearers walking back with a white sash. the hearse is now approaching the receiving vault. it is about to stop. it has stopped.
9:20 am
>> richard, what division is this that would be accompanying the hearse most closely? richard: i'm sorry? >> which division would have been that we are seeing close to the hearse. richard: i'm not exactly certain . there were many divisions. many of them came from camp butler, which was a union camp just east of springfield. it became a prisoner of war camp, and many of these were units, the wisconsin brigade i'm sorry, the michigan brigade. they are pulling the hearse now
9:21 am
off to the side, and, i lost this -- >> there you see the ostrich plumes they referred to earlier. was that a common symbol of mounrrning in the victorian era? richard: i think it was. but i don't think anything approached this carriage. this carriage was probably the ultimate example of the taurean funeral carriages. >> richard, 150 years ago, were there for and dignitaries -- foreign dignitaries present?
9:22 am
richard: yes. one of the callers asked that earlier. my book lists the various people that were here. there were probably 20 generals from the civil war. davis, a supreme court justice. there were many people. the president, obviously, was not here, johnson. but there were a number of dignitaries who came with them -- within the weeks after the burial. >> that was my question. given the difficulty in travel and communication 150 years ago if any europeans or anyone from outside the united states was able to arrive in springfield in time, with president lincoln
9:23 am
dying on april 15 and his funeral on may 4th. richard: i'm not aware of any diplomatic or foreign representatives or any europeans who may have come for the funeral. i'm not aware of that. i will say this. at the end of the general procession in the original order , it was the colored people and others, as this came into the cemetery, they were assembled approximately 10,000 african-americans to pay their respects. >> we have been looking at some of these divisions. we are told that the first edition was headed up by the marshal in chief, major general joseph hooker. the second division was military
9:24 am
not assigned to other units, individual soldiers and retired military. the third division, that was the question that had the pallbearers around the hearse. family members, the orator of the day, clergy members, the veterans reserve corps. fourth division was a congressional delegation and governors. fifth division was local governments. the sixth division, members of christian sanitary commissions and similar organizations, aid societies and delegations from universities and colleges. the seventh division, members of social organizations like the freemasons and local fire companies. the eighth division would have been the citizens at large. that was the way they lined them up there, 150 years ago. they were re-creating that to some extent today, i am. richard: yes, not as fully as at
9:25 am
that time. the original procession 150 years ago, was much larger than today. >> you can see the fire company in period costume. richard: there's a great photograph of the fire company in downtown springfield, right before they left on the procession. it is an absolutely wonderful photograph. it's interesting. you see the sash on that
9:26 am
gentleman. different sashes had different meanings. the color would means thing, or the way they were draped would mean something. that was a way of identifying. as you can see, many people have the funeral medallion on, as i have on my coat this afternoon. these are people that are dressed as reenactors. notice, none of them wear black. you know why that is? and that time, only the family of the deceased was dressed in black. you are not supposed to dress in black if you are not a member of the family. >> i assume that applied more to the ladies perhaps than the gentleman.
9:27 am
a number of gentleman are wearing the waistcoat in black, but that would have been there every day we -- their everyday w. we are watching with richard hart in springfield illinois, the reenactment of the funeral procession of president abraham lincoln some 150 years ago. bringing you that this afternoon on american history tv, sees -- c-span 3. when the procession has been solved way in, then there is a reenactment of the air money including the -- ceremony including the oratory. we will bring that to you as well. let's watch this now, the soldiers moving the coffin.
9:28 am
richard: you see the umbrellas. all the photographs of the funeral in 1865, they are a mass of umbrellas because of the heat of the day, just like today.
9:29 am
>> again, a live picture on your screen from springfield, illinois. this is a re-creation of the funeral of abraham lincoln, which took place some 150 years ago. this weekend, you see reenactors in the period-appropriate uniforms of the union army. with us, we are hearing the voice of richard hart, an expert on the subject and a springfield resident. an expert on the funeral of abraham lincoln. he has written a book on the subject.
9:30 am
your book is called what richard? richard: "the funeral of abraham lincoln, may 3rd and 4th 1865." >> how long did it take you to research for that both? how long have you been interested in that particular event in the life of abraham lincoln? richard: at least the last few years. i collected photographs of 19th century springfield for some time, so i had a number of photographs of the funeral. i knew that this funeral was coming i knew this funeral was coming up and i had never thought about this before. i thought it was kind of a boring topic but it is fascinating. the whole story from the time of the assassination to the burial, it is an incredible story. it took me about three years.
9:31 am
>> and obviously, the event capturing the imagination of many others, the reenactors, are those costumes sewn at their own expense? they spend their own money buying and assembling those outfits? richard: yes, it is, and it can become very expensive, not only the costumes and outfits, but the military equipment and guns and swords and all of the other outfitting for the military person that they buy. and there are actually events where they go -- there is a huge place to buy things for reenactors. it can become a very expensive hobby.
9:32 am
but there seems to be great enjoyment in doing it, and great camaraderie among the participants. one of them told me, you see us perform during the day, but our camps at night, it's like las vegas. whatose camps have to stay in those camps. -- has to stay in those camps. they say they have a lot of fun. the body is now being taken, i believe, around for a viewing, i guess. and this is the coffin that you mentioned earlier, in which you can get a better view of now. it was very elaborate and beautiful. and of course, the flowers.
9:33 am
and every town that the training went through, it seemed they were just enormous bouquets of flowers ever offered. some of them were put on the outside of the training -- of the train, but just an outpouring of floral tributes.
9:34 am
>> as we approach the actually creation richard of the ceremony -- we are talking to richard hart about this reenactment of president lincoln funeral. what sort of clergy involvement was there? was there a denominational or nondenominational ceremony? richard: william simpson, who was the minister, he was the principal speaker. i believe he was methodist. there were other ministers who either read psalms or other religious passages and the music , some of it was very traditional music for funerals.
9:35 am
but there were a number of musical pieces written for the funeral. it seems to me there was a long funeral service with -- i don't know if you would call it nondenominational. it was christian, i think, sibley because the people that spoke were christian ministers. lincoln never joined a church. his wife mary, belonged to the first presbyterian church in springfield. but lincoln had heard simpson and thought he was just an outstanding minister. the people here now are
9:36 am
assembling before a large stage that has been erected. that would not have been there at the time of the actual funeral. this, i think, is done so that the people here can see and hear today. but this stage, it has a large lectern with an abraham lincoln medallion on the front of it and flowers around it and different plants. one of the regiments is lined up in front of the stage now, and the coffin is on a black table with a black tablecloth over it. you can see it now. then behind that and toward the other hill here, there are
9:37 am
assembled people in period dress. the men, some of them in top hats and ladies, as i said, all in dresses other than black. some of them had parasols and umbrellas. and the flow of the people extends from here in the valley as far as i can see up the hill and back. people are standing. and then behind the ball on the hill going up -- the vault on the hill going up to lincoln's tomb. and these pictures that still exist, the people were positioned this way at that time. as i say, the stage was not something that was there in 1865
9:38 am
, but perhaps everyone will be able to better see and hear. >> richard -- richard: there is also a big screen tv out here for everyone to be able to see what is going on. >> lets at that question. in 1865, in springfield, illinois -- richard: the oaktree's are outstanding. >> richard, can you hear me? i was going to ask you -- richard: they have been trimmed for this occasion. we had a drought several years ago, and some of the oaks were taken down within the last week by volunteers. the wood has been dated -- or the trees have been dated back to the lincoln era. so they are saving the tree would and making that in -- the tree wood and making it into
9:39 am
mementos for people who visit oak ridge and want to have such a memento. >> as you can see here, on c-span3, the reenactment of the ceremony about abraham lincoln's funeral. we are going to thank our guest on site there in springfield richard hart, for being with us all afternoon and offering his insight. richard, the author of the book "the funeral of lincoln." this is american history tv on c-span3. as you can see, this reenactment on this beautiful spring day in springfield, well underway, and we will bring it to you here now in its entirety. when the funeral reenactment itself as then, we will have the chance for you to talk with an historian and we will take some
9:40 am
more of your phone calls. ♪
9:41 am
9:42 am
9:43 am
9:44 am
9:45 am
♪ >> good afternoon. we thank you for being here to be part of this solemn assembly as we do these things necessary for president lincoln. at this time, i would like to
9:46 am
introduce to you linville -- lyn bull, who will be portraying reverend hale. reverend: let's pray. father, we acknowledge every good and perfect gift. thou give us light and take away . the nations are in thy hands. we ask that with submissive hearts we make knowledge thee in this serious thought that impress upon those here today. we thank the, father in heaven that thou has given him to his
9:47 am
people and raced into a position of power and authority that through him, thou hast led to the hopeful condition of public affairs. we mourn, our hearts out in grief and sorrow. and we do especially remember the bereaved widow and family and we pray that god gives to them those blessings that they need and so open the fountains of divine consolation, that they in their grief may make this event not only one of sorrow but a day of blessings. we commit to them and all relatives in morning consequence to this distressing events, this affection that he holds today in his death stronger than in life.
9:48 am
help us to remember the value of his life and the worthiness he has shown us. we do beseech that the high purpose for which he lived will be carried to completion. and a steady adherence to truth a love of freedom, and opposition to wrong, in justice and slavery and we pray that god would grant that the policy of our government touching these great issues may successfully be carried through. and not a slave will be shackled in the land and not a soul will be found that will not read -- rejoice in his power over the nations. oh god, our father, give us grace and wisdom to him who so mysteriously has called to occupy the chair of state. give him humility.
9:49 am
give him wisdom to direct his steps. give him a love of righteousness and help them cherish the freedom of the people while he sits at the helm of the nation. our father in heaven, we pray thee remember those that have come out of bondage. may all the people united in our prayers, their patients, their self-denial, so that these may come up and take their place as citizens, rejoicing in newborn privileges and in the right that god gave an man cannot rightfully take away. father in heaven, we asked by blessings on all those here today to secure in the public interest against the hands of an assassin and to prevent the murder of those in high places. oh god, let thy justice, thy righteousness and power be
9:50 am
against those who lust for power. and let the union become a light for the future nations of earth in future time. father in heaven, you are righteous in all your ways. we are sinful and unworthy of our privileges, but thou has not rewarded us according to our iniquities. except through our christ, our redeemer, and everlasting, amen. ♪ [choir sings a capella] ♪
9:51 am
9:52 am
9:53 am
9:54 am
>> benjamin goal will be portraying dr. noyce w minor. doctor: a reading from job chapter 19. how fitting -- have pity upon me , my friends. for the hand of god has touched me.
9:55 am
why do you persecute me as god and are not satisfied with my flesh? oh, that my words were now written, oh that they were printed in a book that they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock forever. for i know my redeemer lives and he will stand in a latter day upon the earth and though after my skin worms destroy this body yet in my flesh i shall see god whom i shall see for myself. in my eyes shall behold, and not another. though migraines be consumed within me. the word of the lord.
9:56 am
♪ [choir sings a capella] ♪
9:57 am
>> chief justice frank j, rhode island supreme court retired will portray dr. matthew simpson. doctor: fellow citizens in illinois and in many parts of our entire nation, near the
9:58 am
capital of this large and growing a of illinois in the midst of this beautiful grove and at the fault, which is about --the vault which is about to receive the fallen remained of our chieftain, we gather and shed tears of sorrow for him. a little more than four years ago he left his plane and quiet home, exchanging his parting words with friends who gathered around him. he spoke of the pain of parting from the place where he had lived for a quarter of a century , where his children had been born and where he enjoyed the company of his many friends. as he left, he made an earnest request in the hearing of some who are present at this hour that as he was about to take on the responsibilities which he believed to be greater than any
9:59 am
which had fallen upon any man the days of washington. people would offer up prayers that god would sustain him in his work. he left your quiet city, but as he went snares were in waiting for the chief magistrate. he escaped the dangers on the way to washington only through the vigilance of officers and the prayers of the people. so that final tragedy was suspended for more than four years. how different the occasion which witnessed his departure from that which witnessed his return. doubtless you expected to take him by the hand and feel his warm breath and see -- feel his warm grasp and see his tall form walking among you. but he was never to return until
10:00 am
he came with lips and silent, the frame in coffin, and with a weeping nation, his mourners. there have been never has there been such morning with that which has accompanied this funeral procession for the loved one who now sleeps among us could. strongmen as they clasped the hands of their friends were not able to find words to express their grief. women and even children felt deep sorrow. the nation stood still. men left their plows in the fields, factories ceased and the sound of the hammer was not heard. busy merchants closed their doors and businesses and homes
10:01 am
were draped in black. three weeks have elapsed and there is a mournful silence upon the land. this morning is not confined to any class or any district of the country. men of all political parties and all religious creeds have united in paying this mournful tribute. the archbishop of the roman catholic church and a protestant ministers walk side-by-side in a jewish rabbi performed a solemn service. here, gathered around his tomb our soldiers, sailors, senators, judges governors come officers of all the branches of government. men and women from the humblest and highest occupations.
10:02 am
here are tears, sincere and warm , which come from the eyes of those who have freed from their chains by him, who may mourn -- they mourn as their deliverer. more persons have gazed upon the face of the departed than ever looked upon the face of any other departed man. more have looked on the procession for 1600 miles by night and by day, by sunlight, don, twilight and torchlight than ever before walked -- watched the progress of a procession. why has there been this extensive morning, great outpouring of grief and this great procession? perhaps it is because of the time in which we live, in which he was the principal actor. this is an age of change, a time of war in which brother fought
10:03 am
brother and families were divided. wives give their husbands and mothers their sons to the cause. many never returned and there was morning in every home in the land. then came signs that the end of this rebellion was near. news came that richmond has fallen and lee has surrendered. the bells rang merrily all over the land. the blooming of canon was heard. illuminations and -- families were looking for the speedy return of their loved ones from the field of battle. just in the midst of this wildest joy, in one hour, in one minute, all the joy was filled when news that abraham lincoln, the best of presidents have perished by the hand of an
10:04 am
assassinate. then all the feelings which had been gathering for four years turned into one whale of woe -- wail of woe, a sadness inexpressible. he was stricken down when his hopes were bright and prospects of a joyous life were before him. perhaps the great cause of this mourning is to be found in the man himself. he was no ordinary man. conviction had been growing on the nation's mind that by the hand of god, he was singled out to guide our government in these troubled times. he had a quick and ready perception of facts, a memory unusually tenacious and
10:05 am
retentive and a logical turn of mind which followed unwaveringly every link in the chain of thought on subjects which he was called to investigate. there have been more minds, more broad in their character, more copperheads of in their scope, but he had the ability to follow step-by-step with more logical power, the points which he desired to illustrate. he gained this power by a determination to proceed -- perceive the truth in all its relations and simplicity and when found, to utter it. his moral power gave him preeminence. the people saw abraham lincoln as an honest man who would do what was right regardless of the consequences. it was this moral feeling which gave him the greatest toll -- hold on the people.
10:06 am
the great act on which his fame shall rest long after his reign shall molder away is that of giving freedom to erase. such a power was such an opportunity that god has seldom given to man. when other events shall have been forgotten, when his world shall have become a network of republics, when every throne shall be swept from the face of the earth, when literature shall enlighten all lines, when the claims of humanity shall be recognized everywhere, this act shall be conspicuous on the pages of history. we are thankful that god gave to abraham lincoln the decision in wisdom and grace to issue
10:07 am
that proclamation which stands high above all other papers which have been and by uninspired men. --he was known as an honest, temperate, forgiving man. a just man. a man of noble -- look over his speeches, listen to his utterances. he never spoke unkindly of any man. even the rebels received no word of anger from him. in his domestic life, he was exceedingly kind and affectionate. he was a devoted husband and father. standing as we do today by his coffin and his sepracor, let us do right by all men.
10:08 am
let us bow in the side of heaven to eradicate every vestige of human slavery. to give every human being history position before god and man, to crush every form of rebellion and to stand by the flag which god has given us. the time will come when come in the beautiful words of him whose lives are forever sealed, the mystic clause of memories from every patriot grave to every living hot stone all over this broad land will yet swell a course of the union when by the better angels of our nature -- she can, farewell. the nation mourns you. mothers shall praise your name to their children.
10:09 am
the youth of our land shall emulate your virtues. statesmen shall study your records and learn lessons of wisdom. your lips still speak. hushed is your voice, but its echoes of liberty are ringing through the world and the sons of bondage listened with joy. prison you are, yet you are marching abroad and chains are bursting with your touch. we crown you as our martyr and humanity and thrones you as our triumphant son, hero martyr, friend farewell. [applause]
10:10 am
[chorus singing]
10:11 am
>> reverend jerome kowalski will portray reverend ac hubbard. >> being the first week of
10:12 am
march, 1865, stepped into the capital of washington city, the 16th president of these united states gave his second inaugural address. this is what mr. lincoln said. fellow countrymen, at this second appearing to take the oath of the presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address then there was at the first. a statement someone in detail of a course to be pursued was fitting and proper. now, at the expiration of four years -- which still absorbs the attention and energies of the nation, little that is new could be present. the progress of our arms upon all else chiefly depends -- it
10:13 am
is reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all, but i hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured. on the occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. all dreaded it, all thought to avert it, while the inaugural address is being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the union without war and surgeon agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war. seeking to dissolve the union by negotiation. both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make more rather than let the nation survive and the other would accept war rather than let it perish and war came. 18 of the whole population were
10:14 am
colored slaves, not distributed generally over the union but localized to the southern part of it. these slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. all knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. to strengthen corporate -- insurgents would render the union while the government claimed no more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. neither party expected the war the magnitude or the duration which had already attained. neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might seize -- each look for an easier triumph and the result was astounding. both read from the same bible
10:15 am
both prey to the same god, each invokes his against the other. it may seem strange that any man should have to ask a just god's assistance -- let us not judge that we not be judged. the prayers of both cannot be answered. that neither has been answered fully, the almighty has his own purposes. woe onto the world because of its offensive, needs be the offensive,, but woe to that man by whom the offensive -- if american slavery is one of those offenses, he now wills to remove -- he gives to both north and
10:16 am
south this terrible war as the woes do by those -- shall we discern any departure from those divine attributes? finally do we hope, fervently do we pray that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. until every drop of blood drawn by the lash shall be paid by another drawn by the sword -- it was said to 3000 years ago, the judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether. with malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness
10:17 am
in the right as god gives us the right to see, let us strive to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle, for his widow and orphan, to all which may achieve and cherish a jesting and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. [applause] [chorus sings "amazing grace"]
10:18 am
10:19 am
10:20 am
[applause] >> i am reverend thomas b -- let us raise our prayers before the lord. oh god, before whose face -- the strength of those who labor and the repose of the blessed gathered to rejoice in the communion of the saints. we remember all who have faithfully lived, all who have peacefully died, those most year to us and especially our leader, abraham lincoln, who now rests in peace.
10:21 am
give us a portion with those who trust -- to do your holy will. unto thy name with the church on earth and the church in heaven describe all honor and glory, world without end, amen. [chorus singing]
10:22 am
10:23 am
>> reverend gene r cocker will portray dinsmore gurley.
10:24 am
>> with your kind permission may i be permitted to share some portions of the words which were offered at the funeral service for our slain chief executive in the east room of the executive mansion in washington, d.c. on april 19 as we stand here today warners around this coffin and around the lifeless remains of our beloved chief magistrate, we recognized and we adore -- his throne is in the heavens and his kingdom rule of over all. he has permitted to be done whatsoever he pleased. whom the lord of love -- oh how these blessed words have cheered
10:25 am
and strengthened and sustained us through all these long and weary years of civil strife while our friends and brothers on so many fields were falling and dying for the cause of liberty and union. let them cheer and strengthened and sustain us today. true, this new sorrow has come in such an hour and such a way as we thought not. that he should be taken from us and taken just as the prospect of peace was brightly opening upon our torn and bleeding country. just as he was beginning to be animated and gladdened with the people, the blessed fruit and reward of his and their toil and
10:26 am
care and patience and self-sacrificing devotion to the interests of liberty and the union. when he was leaving his home here in illinois and coming to the city of washington to take his seat at the executive chair of a disturbed and troubled nation, he said to the old and tried friends who gathered tearfully around him, i leave you with this request. pray for me. they didn't pray for him. -- they did pray for him and millions prayed for him. their prayer was heard and the answer appears in all of his subsequent history. it shines forth with a heavenly radiance in the whole course and tenor of his administration from its commitments this
10:27 am
commencement to its close. furnished him for his work and aided him in its accomplishments. nor was it merely by strength of mind and honesty of heart and purity and tenacity of purpose that he furnished him. in addition to these things, he gave him a call and a confidence in the overruling providence of god and the ultimate triumph of truth and righteousness through the power and blessings of god. this confidence strengthen him in all his hours of anxiety and toil and inspired him with cheering hope when others were inclining to despondency and gloom. never shall i forget the emphasis and deep emotion with
10:28 am
which he said in the east room of his executive mansion to a company of clergymen and others to pay him respects "gentlemen, my hope of success in this great and terrible struggle rests on that immutable foundation that justice and goodness of god." when prospects very dark, i still hope that in some way which man cannot see, all will be well in the end. because our cause is just an god is on our side. such was his sublime and holy faith and it was an anchor to his soul, both sure and steadfast. by dwelling constantly on your words and actions, our beloved
10:29 am
president, your people will happen illustrious character before their eyes and not content with the bear image of your mortal frame, it will have what is more valuable, the form and features of your mind. busts and statues are frail and perishable. but you have delineated with truth and fairly consigned it to posterity will survive yourself and triumph over the injuries of time. let us pray. almighty god, our loving father, we commanded to the mercy the soul of thy humble servant abraham and we pray that having opened unto him the gates of larger life he may be received
10:30 am
more and more into by loving presence that he may enter into the blessed rest promised to all thy saints. grant us by that grace to cherish the good work done in him and by the agency of empowering spirit, it may we be enabled to carry forward -- and to strive to perfect the union of these united states. remembering that great mercies and kindness, we ask these things or the sake of the holy name amen. -- for the sake of thy holy name, amen. [chorus singing]
10:31 am
10:32 am
>> it is my honor and privilege to introduce a woman i met a few months ago and now call a very good friend. katie's and sindell.
10:33 am
[applause] katie: this thing with guests -- distinguished guests, reenactors who are very distinguished ladies and gentlemen in 1865 the funeral of abraham lincoln the very dark and difficult time in life and how honored we have been over the last couple of days to present to you the images of what happened in 1865. it truly has been an honor. [applause] there are a couple of additions we want to add to the program. i think you will all appreciate.
10:34 am
would the pallbearers please come forth? one of the parts of this program was that we wanted to bring in the actual history. and we were able to do that within our pallbearers. i know they are coming.
10:35 am
would you be kind enough gentlemen, to come along the front here. and, if you can, single file. as a genealogist, i find it important to connect the past with the present. and what i would like you all to know right now is within these pallbearers, we have direct descendents of the original pallbearers. would you please stand -- step forward, those of you who are descendents, please step forward. [applause]
10:36 am
thank you so much. it is truly touching to me to find that we have these individuals here who are re-creating the role their ancestor played, and i am truly honored that they are here. i want to thank the springfield choral society and the community members i have no idea how many -- i know that that choir over there is absolutely magnificent. would you be kind enough to show them -- [applause] their director has had to put up an awful lot with me. [laughter] [applause] i also want to thank the band over here. [applause]
10:37 am
while we are doing this, we also need to thank our interpreter today. [applause] i would like to now, as a commander and the crew from the uss abraham lincoln who have honored springfield with their presence over the last couple of days. [applause] they will be placing a wreath at the vault, and i know some of you may not be able to see it. trust me, you will see it when it is son. we will let them get on with their great work.
10:38 am
[no audio]
10:39 am
commander and crew, we are honored to have you here. [applause] i believe that this event has shown to all of us how important abraham lincoln is, not only here but around the world. the gentleman that are here representing the clergy have come from a number of different places. you will also see that we have an empty chair. yes, it is difficult. an extraordinary man was part of our group, and he suddenly
10:40 am
passed away. and it was my intention then and it is now to make sure that keith is represented here with that empty chair. [applause] we also had two alternates for the clergy, one of them is reverend anderson. the other is malcolm shotwell. and i'm grateful to them for always being able to pinch hit when we need it. [applause] i'm now going to turn this event over so that we can have the last parts of it occur. we are going to go back a little bit into history yet again. general hooker, the rest of the program, sir, is yours.
10:41 am
general hooker: abraham lincoln, our favorite son, our neighbor our friend, taken from us far too soon, did live to see a house divided. was reunited. that house does stand united. as there were two, now there is one. and the following brothers now stand has one. delaware, 1787.
10:42 am
pennsylvania, 1787. new jersey, 1787. georgia, 1788. connecticut, 1788. massachusetts, 1788. maryland, 1788. south carolina, 1788. new hampshire, 1788.
10:43 am
virginia, 1788. new york, 1788. north carolina, 1789. rhode island, 1790. vermont, 1791. kentucky, 1792. tennessee, 1796. ohio, 1803. louisiana, 1812. indiana, 1861. mississippi, 1817. illinois, 1818. alabama, 1819. maine, 1720. missouri, 1721.
10:44 am
arkansas, 1836. michigan, 1837. florida, 1845. texas, 1845. iowa, 1846. wisconsin, 1848. california, 1860. minnesota, 1858. oregon, 1859. kansas, 1861. west virginia, 1863. and nevada, 1864. and the war was over. [gunshot] [applause]
10:45 am
and now, he belongs to the ages. thank you. [applause] [gunshots]
10:46 am
10:47 am
10:48 am
10:49 am
>> that brings to an end the reenactment of lincoln's funeral in springfield, illinois. in just a minute, the university of illinois scholar michael
10:50 am
burling will be joining us to take your calls and talk about this day. he's the author of "abraham lincoln: a life." 202-748-8901 is a number for mountain and pacific time zones. you can also leave a comment on twitter or facebook. professor burling, what was it like 150 years ago? michael: very similar. the conditions that prevailed today are quite similar. >> was there ever any question that abraham lincoln would be buried in springfield? michael: yes. his widow was upset by the plans
10:51 am
made to have him buried in the center of town. she insisted that he be buried in oak ridge, which is north of the center of town. she claims that it was her husband's wish. she threatened to have his remains buried in chicago, until authorities bowed to her wishes. it was legitimate, because the widow has the right to determine where her husband's remains are buried. she was not there. she was so grief-stricken by the assassination, that she remained in the white house for several weeks after the assassination. her older son, robert, came out here. but he was the only family member that made it to springfield for the occasion. >> today's events, how accurate
10:52 am
from your research? michael: based on what i have discovered, they are extremely accurate. the organization has been very conscientious about making this as historically accurate and authentic as possible. >> professor, what happened 150 years ago the rest of this day? michael: i assume the crowd dispersed and that was that. >> let's take some calls. he is a professor at the university of illinois springfield and a lincoln next -- expert. caller: hi. my question is, the symbolic vote that the local springfield
10:53 am
committee made, i think there was about 16 members. would that vote, is it symbolic to vote on or in the president's wife's wishes. if that vote had turned the other way, would they have put him on another plot? michael: it is not entirely clear what would happen if the 8-7 vote has been reversed. it is possible that she would have insisted to bury him elsewhere. the funeral vault beneath the capital had been created for george washington, but he is buried in mount vernon. there is an empty space, as it were.
10:54 am
>> 20 days between his death and his funeral. how do they preserve the body? michael: with embalmers. one of the more alarming aspects is that the funeral train proceeded from washington to baltimore, then philadelphia the new york, harrisburg, and so on. albany, buffalo, cleveland chicago, then springfield. the body began to deteriorate. the makeup artists were hard-pressed to keep the corpse from looking like a mummy. by the time he reached here, he was more like a mummy then the
10:55 am
man in real life. >> is it what we call an open casket when he was there? michael: yes, open casket. caller: i would like to know how long did it take for lincoln's body to be really interred? wasn't there a fear about, the tomb wasn't finished yet and they put him somewhere inside of it -- i'm not sure. michael: i'm not exactly sure how long the body was in the vault before it was closed rapidly. but it was a while. >> his body has been at oak ridge ever since, correct? michael: correct. caller: i would just like to make a comment. the program was outstanding, except for the fact that i don't
10:56 am
feel that the tourists and the citizens that were not dressed in the era were very respectful. of our fallen president. i just wanted to let them know that that was a terrible shameful way to act, laughing and cheering on when they are carrying the casket into the tomb. >> thank you, ma'am. do you know how many people were at oak ridge on that day? michael: i'm sorry, i don't. caller: hello. how many years did abraham live in springfield? michael: mr. lincoln moved into the house in 1844 and left in 1861, so he was there for 17 years. the house that we know today was
10:57 am
not there until 1856. most of the time that lincoln spent in that house, it was a one story modern house. it was in the last five years that they lived in a house with the extra story added, that was done by mrs. lincoln. when we visit the house, we get a distorted view of what it looked like. it was much more cramped than what we find when we go to the house today. >> if people come to visit springfield, what will they see that is reflected of abraham lincoln and his life? michael: there is a great deal here. it is what i somewhat
10:58 am
irreverently referred to as the holy land. you have the lincoln home, the lincoln tomb, the lincoln law office, and the old state capitol where he served as the legislator as a young man and where he gave his house divided speech in 1858. you can see the train station from which he departed for washington in 1861 and where he delivered his beautiful farewell to the people of springfield. so, there is a great deal to be seen. on top of that, you have abraham lincoln's museum, which is quite a magnificent place for visitors to get a good overview of the life and times of abraham lincoln. so, please come. >> c-span was live with the opening of that museum. you can find that at c-span.org if you would like to watch our coverage.
10:59 am
caller: hello. are there any other immediate family members of abraham lincoln buried their? -- there? michael: yes. mrs. lincoln is buried here and willie is buried here and eddie is buried here. all three sons -- three of the four sons are buried here. robert todd lincoln is buried in arlington cemetery. he served as a captain during the war, and as a military veteran, his wife thought he should be buried and arlington cemetery. when i discovered that, i went out to arlington to visit his grave, and i was startled to see that his grave is 200 yards from my parents. >> what was mary todd lincoln's life like in springfield?
11:00 am
michael: she was not very popular in springfield. she had antagonized her sisters, she had antagonized neighbors. she was not eager to return to springfield after her husband's death. she spent time in chicago, she spent time abroad and only in the later years it did she come back to springfield to stay with her sister, so she was staying away. lincoln was asked by his friend on what he planned to do after his second term is over and he said he planned to return to springfield. he was very fond of springfield and wished to return to the city. >> rene is in new castle delaware, hi. >> i was calling to ask the gentleman in the reenactment
11:01 am
today, was the casket that was carried -- is that lincoln's actual casket or a replica? >> on sorry. >> was that the replica casket or the same one that carried president lincoln's body? >> it was a replica. >> do you know where that replica came from, where it is stored? >> i do not. where it caller: hi. it is an honor to speak to you. about what happened with robert lincoln. 30 or 40 years later, when they had to go into the tomb and open up the casket, check something about the president can you
11:02 am
talk about why that was necessary, please? michael: i'm not intimately familiar with that story. but there was a concern to make sure that it was actually the body of the president, and the only surviving son would be the one to identify. i cannot give you more details about that. >> what do you teach at the university of illinois? michael: i teach a course on the reconstruction, and a seminar on abraham lincoln. caller: i was wondering if this is the first time there has ever been a reenactment of his interment. if not why 150 years later? why has there never been one before and why now? michael: i don't know the answer
11:03 am
to that. i know that the people that have been so conscientiously working to honor this 150th anniversary of the event have been extremely conscientious. it is a good question. i don't have the answer to your question. >> are there any lincoln ancestors alive? michael: no, there are no lineal descendents. robert litan had a son, but he died young. caller: i thought they tried to
11:04 am
take his body several times, s michael: yes, the body was actually moved around. there has been a bizarre plot to steal the president's body. it was the gang that could not shoot straight, and it failed but it created such anxiety that the body was moved around within the tomb on more than one occasion in order to foil future attempts. >> why the train route that was taken from washington back to springfield? michael: prof. burlingame: the train ride which re-created the train ride he took from illinois to washington. chicago was added on the return trip. it was undertaken and part two allow -- to allow the public to
11:05 am
express morning, not just for abraham lincoln, but the outpouring of grief it was accompanying the funeral train was in part grieving for the 400,000 union soldiers who died during the war, many of him could not be mourned properly by their loved ones because they were buriedin in unmarked graves. and so in those days, families were much more likely to stick together. they live in similar communities. and so, when a family member was dying, you would be present with that person. you would attend the funeral and the like. and this was considered a very important ritual for people to be able to engage in when they lost a loved one. but so many thousands of thousands of people could not do that. and so the train ride was a kind of cathartic exercise which
11:06 am
allowed the nation, at least the north, to engage and morning not only for the fallen leader but for their fall in love points. that i think is the reason why it was such a powerful experience. it is estimated that 5 million people would have seen the train or the coffin. one of the most striking things about the train ride to my way of thinking was the reminiscences of people who as children were taken to see the train. as they worote about it in later years, they were more struck by the fact not that they saw the train itself but that they saw tears in their parent's eyes. host: who are some of the dignitaries that attended abraham lincoln's funeral? prof. burlingame: the dignitaries that attended the funeral work as we saw this afternoon, phineas gurnee, who the preacher at the new york avenue presbyterian church where
11:07 am
president lincoln attended worship services during his presidency. bishop matthew simpson was the head of the methodist church, the largest church in the country at that time. and local authorities including his good friends who had worked with him in politics and the law. general hooker who had been commander of the army of the potomac in 1863. and several other people of that sort. host: but not ulysses s. grant? prof. burlingame: no. host: juan, georgia. go ahead. caller: professor burlingame? i happened to live in springfield in the 1940's. i lived west of town. [voice breaking up] i used to walk from the capitol building to petersburg where lincoln's village was. and back that day to get, earn a badge. we had a well on the front lawn
11:08 am
and i pumped a lot of water for a lot of boy scouts from all over the country. my sunday school teacher, i attended the first methodist church in springfield on n fit street. and my sunday school teacher was judge logan's. grandson. we heard many stories about mr. lincoln. i do not remember a lot of them, i was seven years old, but judge logan many mornings came to work and found mr. lincoln asleep on the couch. yes. and -- his grandson in atlanta right now. and i talked to him not too long ago. host: michael birmingham, who is judge logan? prof. burlingame: judge logan was lincoln's second law partner. he had three law partners. he started off with john stewart
11:09 am
with whom he served in the legislature and in the blackhawk war. his second law partner with stephen t logan. stephen to logan was probably the best lawyer in central illinois and was very incidental in teaching lincoln the law. and lincoln regarded him as a kind of second father. lincoln cannot get along very well with his own father. he was rather estranged from his own father. older men in positions of authority like judge logan served as surrogate fathers for lincoln. he was one of the most important. he was also political ally. they were good members of the whig party together. and champions of the republican party. and judge logan was deeply devoted to lincoln and lincoln to judge logan. there are many people in springfield whose ancestors are close to lincoln. in fact, this is something of a rivalry among people here whose ancestors knew lincoln. my ancestor was closer to lincoln than yours. i horn in by saying well, my
11:10 am
great-grandfather was lincoln's ambassador to china but that does not cut any ice and spring field. host: just doing a little bit of math and up to 1920 there were a lot of people living in springfield who had actually known abraham lincoln. did anyone -- prof. burlingame: up until that time, yes. host: did anyone ever do or history? prof. burlingame: yes. there was quite a lot of oral history done. one of the great contributions to lincoln's studies was an oral history project that was undertaken by his law partner william herndon. as soon as the president died, herndon corresponded with an interview people in indiana and illinois and kentucky and created an archive of dozens and scores of interviews which shed a great deal of light on lincoln . then in subsequent years
11:11 am
newspaper interviewers and early biographers would come and interview people for -- who knew lincoln. those interviews are externally valuable and they can be found in newspapers and they can be found in the field notes and research notes of the early biographers. i was astounded when i began my research on abraham lincoln, a life to go to brown the university in providence, rhode island, which is an excellent collection because john hay, his assistant personal secretary went to brown. and i discovered a whole cache of valuable interviews that had been conducted by haye, and also by his fellow secretary in the white house. all kinds of new information. yes, there is a treasure trove or reminisces about lincoln. they have to be treated with caution because people's memories sometimes play tricks on them. as mark twain once said, the
11:12 am
older i get the more vividly i remember things that never happened. but if you use reminiscences in conjunction with contemporary documents, they can be extremely revealed to it i have made good use of those. host: michael burlingame. the abraham lincoln association book prize in 1996. his book won the 2010 lincoln prize. what, about 1000 pages you have a netbook? prof. burlingame: no, it is 2000 pages. it weighs nine pounds. don't drop it on your foot. because it is so big and clumsy, i recommend, the 200 p0 pages are awkward to hold i recommend that people get it on kindle or ipad. they should be warned that as soon as you download abraham lincoln a life, your device becomes much heavier. host: craig is calling from
11:13 am
pennsylvania. caller: hello, professor. my question has to do with the reenactors carrying the coffins. i assume that they were representing the veteran reserve corps. i understand they were the old ones who carry the coffin of president lincoln from -- all the way from washington to spring field. in springfield and number one, can you tell me the relationship between the so-called pallbearers and the veteran reserve corps. and secondly, my understanding the veteran reserve corps actually received a medal of honor for their honorary duty in guarding and escorting the body of president lincoln. prof. burlingame: the veteran reserve corps was in charge and did perform the functions that you mentioned. i did not know the story about the medal of honor. that is quite remarkable. that is a remarkable fact. i'm glad to learn it. host: mark, wilmington,
11:14 am
delaware. good afternoon. you're on with professor michael burlingame in o ak ridge cemetery, in spring field, illinois. caller: there was a caller earlier who asked about what happened later in the day and i came across a quote in a book i have called "20 days." and it was published -- back in 1965. and it says later that day back in springfield a crowd went to stand in front of the governor's mansion and listen to the band of the st. louis regimen which had come to march and the funeral procession. serenade the governor. it was the first time quick time is it was heard in springfield in three weeks. i thought that was a happy way to end the day. prof. burlingame: that is a touching story. thanks. caller: it is a wonderful book. i pulled it off my shelf. i had it in my lap watching the reenactment today. so it has been nice. prof. burlingame: it is a remarkable book. a huge collection of materials.
11:15 am
that he compiled has recently been acquired by yale university. it is the repository of one of the best image collections of lincoln in the country. host: we have been live in springfield for several hours on american history tv. if you missed any of it, and want to view it, 10:00 p.m. eastern time, everything we have shown today will re-air on c-span 3 on the weekend. lisa from california, hi, lisa. caller: hello. host: go ahead, ma'am. caller: i wanted to know was it lincoln's -- what was lincoln's favorite food? host: what made you curious about that? calllerer: i don't know. they were talking about everything else. but what did he like to eat? host: let's see if michael burlingame knows the answer to that question. prof. burlingame: friend of mine,, his favorite food was
11:16 am
chicken fricassee and mashed potatoes and strober shortcake. i've a friend who has written a book on what lincoln liked to eat. he of the sizes that is lincoln 's -- emphasizes that as lincoln 's favorite meal. he is famously not a foodie. his assistant presidential secretary said he was a man who was not much of a connoisseur of, or gourmet. that he ate what was put before him without complaining. he was famous on the circuit when he and his fellow lawyers would travel around from one county seat to the next every fall and spring out here in central illinois, and all the other lawyers would grouse about the food but lincoln would not. one day, even his legendary patientsce wore thin. and he said to the house sir with this after dinner beverages coffee. would you please bring me tea? if this is tea would you please
11:17 am
bring me coffee? how was that for a gentle way to register a complaint. host: hi mike. caller: hi fellas. you pledge before there were no direct descendents of abraham and lincoln alive. however, nancy hanks, her sister is tom hanks great great great grandmother. i thought that was kind of neat. prof. burlingame: right. so there is a hanks connection to the actor tom hanks to lincoln's mother side. but no descendents of lincoln himself, that his, his son or his children did not have grandchildren who then also had children of their own. host: margaret in des moines. hi, margaret. caller: hi. i was wondering if lincoln was buried in spring field illinois, they always told me he was buried in a statue of lincoln in washington d.c. so where was he originally buried?
11:18 am
prof. burlingame: he was buried out here but at the lincoln memorial, the lincoln memorial on the mall in washington is a great tribute to him. but he is not buried there. host: go ahead, sir. prof. burlingame: i was going to say, of course it is a magnificent trivia to lincoln, the lincoln memorial. one of the striking things about the lincoln memorial, as you look at the statue, if you face to the right eisai -- whoa -- you see -- whoa! [laughter] host: i take it something went flying. did the wind grab something? prof. burlingame: a tent blew over. everybody ok? host: sounds windy out there. prof. burlingame: but anyway, when you go to the lincoln memorial one of the striking things you see is not just a magnificent statue but also the second inaugural address, the text on the right-hand wall and the -- and the gettysburg
11:19 am
address is on the left-hand wall. host: if you cannot get through on the phone lines, you can try social media @c-span history is american history's twitter address, or join the conversation on abraham lincoln@facebook.com/c-span history. theresa, lebanon, indiana. caller: hello. host: hi. hello. caller: you had a question from a caller asking about the movement of lincoln's body within his tomb. andf years ago, when i was a very small child, nine or 10 years old, i read a story in look magazine that was an interview with an elderly gentleman who had witnessed them opening the top part of president lincoln's coffin to ensure it was indeed him in the coffin. and i remember the story well because it freaked me out terribly because he describes in detail the condition of his
11:20 am
skin the condition of his clothing, and everything else. and then he told the story about why he was there. and that story stayed with me forever until a few years ago when i googled the story again and the man passed away in the 1980's or something. but he was very young. they said they were moving him to make sure the tomb was more secure. there had been too many rumors of his body being stolen. and another course and its place. that is what i remember reading from look magazine. prof. burlingame: speaking of childhood exposures to the story of lincoln, i have a good friend, a woman who is reading to her four-year-old son a book about lincoln. and the son was quite taken with the story of the assassination. it's a return to his mother and said mommy, do i have the story right? the president went to the theater and he was watching the
11:21 am
play, then he got shot while watching the play but he did not die until the next morning. his mother said, that's right. the boy thought about that and thought about that. then he said well, at least you got to see the end of the play. host: up next -- prof. burlingame: this is a true story. host: john in lake city, florida. you are on american history tv. caller: thank you for what you're doing. i have one question and one something to see if you can answer. the first is regarding the mythology behind president lincoln, the great the mensa paid her, i do not believe he knew that term and it was a term that was invented by the media -- the great emancipator. secondly, i'm quite concerned and taken aback by how many people call mr. lincoln a tyrant when in reality my studies have
11:22 am
shown where he may have stretched the constitution his adversaries did the same but yet, i see authors such as the kennedy brothers continually downgrade him in this manner. i do not understand why that is. prof. burlingame: there are cranks and lunatic fringe in all fields, and i think those folks belong on that lunatic fringe. one of the striking thing about lincoln during the civil war is that the suppression of civil liberties during that conflict was much less severe and intense than during the war with france in 1798 when the congress passed the alien and sedition acts which tried to crush the jeffersonian republican party. much less repressive than world war i when this sedition and espionage acts were passed witchcraft down very severely-- which crackdown very severely on all forms of dissent. world war ii when 120,000
11:23 am
japanese americans were incarcerated with no trial, no due process and the like. the striking thing about the civil war is how much there was suppression -- was not how how much the suppression of civil liberties, but how little. especially considering how it was a very serious domestic, civil war were seven times was much more prominent than it was in world war i or world war ii. the main complain about lincoln 's civil liberties is that he suspended the privilege of the write of habeas corpus but the constitution says the privilege may be suspended in times of domestic rebellion or foreign invasion. the original language of that portion of the constitution set the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus may not be suspended by the legislature except in times of domestic -- or foreign invasion. they cut out the phrase by the legislature. it was clear the president had that authority. so, lincoln's record on civil liberties is distorted by people's --
11:24 am
people like thomas dilorenzo. host: a minute ago we were showing entrance to the tune with the iron doors at oak ridge of the above. -- to the tomb. was that built for ever have lincoln and what you see when you go through those iron doors? prof. burlingame: i cannot say for certain. i'm not sure was created certain for him. host: you have never been through those doors huh? prof. burlingame: right. host: so are visitors allowed to go? prof. burlingame: no. no the tomb itself is entered from a very different angle. and different elevation. host: oh, up the stairs. prof. burlingame: right. host: mike in columbus, ohio. yes, sir. go ahead, professor. prof. burlingame: i was just going to say that the tomb on the monument above the tomb is
11:25 am
really quite striking. and one of the controversies that surrounded the burial of president lincoln and the direction of the monument was -- the erection of the monument that mrs. lincoln insisted that the monument be buried by the tomb. she had every right to insist on bearing her where she saw fit. she did not have the right to insist on where the monument would be placed, but she was rather -- a rather imperious woman when she got her way. caller: professor, i wanted to ask you -- was abraham lincoln a good lawyer? did you get along with the news media and has history made him bigger than he really was? prof. burlingame: um, he was a good lawyer. he was not a great lawyer but he was a good provincial lawyer. very capable. and what th -- with the news media he got along very well. this was something i discovered. lincoln had his secretaries
11:26 am
john hey, two young men in their 20's write for newspapers, right defenses of the administration's annex the nations of the lincoln policies and lincoln appointments. that appeared anonymously in papers in the midwest and new york and missouri and elsewhere. and so he wanted to have the newspapers cover him favorably. one of the techniques that lincoln used to communicate with the public that was very effective was an innovation on his part to write public letters to newspaper editors or two critics. -- to critics. they would get reprinted in newspapers of the day. in lieu of press, this, these were techniques that lincoln used to cultivate the press. was he bigger? has history made him bigger than he deserves? i don't think so. as time goes by, we have come to
11:27 am
appreciate him as a larger and figure than even we appreciate today. host: james tweets. my mother tells me that she has an ancestor that was in lincoln 's from your area are -- funerary honor guard. sources where i can check this out? prof. burlingame: you can go to the abraham lincoln presidential library. the reference librarians would be eager to help you. host: garrtett is calling in from hanscom air force base. where is that? caller: it is between bedford and lexington. host: in kentucky? caller: no messages is. thank you for c-span. and professor, thank you for the book. -- no, massachusetts. my question is, since this is about the funeral. i had a question about what was
11:28 am
-- would lincoln have done if he were still alive during that time? an additional question, do you have to pay to get into the cemetery? prof. burlingame: no you do not have to pay. on the question of, the question you pose is one that historians have try to answer for many years and that is what would've happened if lincoln had lived? when i was a student in school, chest after the punic war, i would've thought that lincoln would have been crucified by congress the way his successor andrew johnson was. lincoln had called for a mild set of peace terms during the war. december 1863, basically saying if you lay down your arms and except the evolution of slavery there will not be any punishment except for the highest ranking members of the confederate military and civilian government.
11:29 am
then andrew johnson tried to implement a plan like that and congress objected vigorously and impeached him and he came within one vote of being removed from office. the argument that was prevalent when i was a student many years ago was that that is just what would've happened to lincoln. most historians do not agree with that now. because they say that what lincoln was doing in december of 1863 was to encourage southerners to throw in the towel, to surrender. they had suffered grievous defeats at gettysburg, vicksburg, fort hudson chattanooga. no reasonable southerner could believe they were going to win the war on the ground, but if they were offered general instead of specific peace terms, they would turn the tall. that motive no longer existed once robert e lee surrender. two days later on april 11 1855, lincoln gave a speech in which he called for a new set of peace terms. one of those terms was that black people would be allowed to
11:30 am
vote for the first time publicly acknowledged that he supported black suffrage, at least for the veterans of the union army and for the veyry intelligent, by which we assume he meant literate. frederick douglass who was in the audience heard the president give that speech and he said that he and his fellow abolitionists were somewhat disappointed by the limited scope of lincoln's call for black voting rights. but frederick douglass said later, i should have known and we should've known that that was a terribly important speech because abraham lincoln learned his statement ship in the school of rail splitting and to split a rail, you insert a wedge into the log. then having done that, you drive home the thick edge of the wedge with a giant hammer. we should've known that that is what lincoln was doing that day.
11:31 am
and john wilkes booth heard that speech and he knew that that was a really significant speech. and he turned his colleagues and said, that means n word citizenship. by god that is the last speech he is ever going to give and i'm going to run him through. three days later he killed lincoln. not because lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation and not because he supported the 13th amendment abolishing slavery but because he called for black voting rights. i think it is appropriate for us in the 21st century to think of lincoln as a martyr to black civil rights as much as martin luther king. or any of those people who were murdered in the 1960's as a champion the civil rights revolution of the 20th century. host: we have only got four minutes left with our guest. if you are interested in making comments are joining the conversation, go to our facebook page. quite a lively conversation going on. facebook.com/c-span history. robert in murfreesboro,
11:32 am
tennessee p you are on. caller: i was wondering -- the southern generals or the southern congress was at lincoln 's funeral? prof. burlingame: i'm sorry i did not get that question. host: southern representative at abraham lincoln's funeral? any southern generals? prof. burlingame: no. there were nine generals from virginia who served in the union army. but not generals from the confederate army, no. host: did robert ely have any reaction? -- robert e. lee have any reaction? prof. burlingame: i'm sure he did but i cannot tell you what it was off the top of my head. host: brian jeffersonville, indiana. caller: professor, a pleasure. my wife and i had the honor of visiting the abc lincoln's -- abe lincoln's presidential
11:33 am
library as well as the tomb. are most of abe lincoln's artifacts there at the library and in springfield or is it spread throughout the country? prof. burlingame: well, there are many artifacts here. and there is a huge collection of documents related to lincoln particular his pre-presidential life. this is a mecca for all lincoln scholars. when i was writing my book, abraham lincoln, a life, i spent many summers here is an invaluable collection of. documents and newspapers and archival material. the library of congress also has a huge collection. lincoln's presidential papers or at the library of congress. and there is a project underway now being carried out in springfield to collect all the documents that were addressed to president lincoln in addition to the ones that are in his papers here and in washington. many of those wound up in the
11:34 am
national archives, and they are cubic acres of papers and conscientious crew in springfield has been poring through those archives looking for new documents. they find some remarkable documents not just to lincoln but some new documents by lincoln. bless their work. host: oak ridge cemetery is the location where university of illinois professor michael burlingame has joined us. his book is called "abraham lincoln, a life." two volume book. prof. burlingame: right. be sure to buy it. you do not have to read it. host: th >> she gained the reputation for
11:35 am
being cleanly by her critics. louisa catherine adams is the only first lady to date on outside of the united states. she played an important role in her husband's 1824 presidential campaign, yet had difficulty winning the approval of her mother-in-law. abigail adams, elizabeth monroe and louisa catherine adams sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's original series "first ladies." examining the public and private lives of the women who filled first lady and their influence on the presidency. from martha washington to michelle obama. sundays on c-span3. each week, america history cap -- the american history tv takes you to museums and historic places. the travel to the national constitution center in philadelphia to learn about 42 bronze statues in signer's hall and to learn about the

15 Views

info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on