tv Politics and Public Policy Today CSPAN November 20, 2015 9:00am-7:01pm EST
they care about their record. and back when i was in my early 30s i was caught up in that insanity. that the end justified the means and that we didn't try people what i do think your who were innocent. question points towards is if we can possibly provide more resources so that a public defender has not so many cases to deal with. >> i submit to you that the answer to the question presented is yes. thank you. that might help. [ applause ] >> we have to move on to a different subject. >> this is important. >> okay. >> there are two things that need to be done for plea-bargaining. prosecutors insist on plea-bargaining before there's any kulpatory evidence. until the prosecutor comes up with all evidence, all the >> i want to say what a pleasure it is to be here and to be with my friends at cato once again. materials so the defendant will not be bamboozled, will not give tim, thank you for everything you have done to arrange this discussion. away rights when, in fact, the prosecutor has exculpatory evidence. and many times i agree with what cato says and sometimes i don't. and the second thing, oftentimes defendants get charged with something that may not be a crime and they have no way of testing it because judges in the
but i'm invariably appreciative federal system will not dismiss of the wonderful contribution this institute makes to the national policy dialogue. indictments for insufficiency. now my law clerk suggests that in federal court, and state i want to thank my friend judge kazinsky for his presentation and for his stimulating article court as well, that district which i read with the greatest interest. judges take a close look at indictments, force efficiency, and that be a i peelable so the it's a wonderful thing to have a defendant can know whether, in fact, he's facing a crime. so i would make those two jurist of his legal distinction on the federal bench and i think changes. and at that point the defendant his commentary and questions are helpful to us all. can know, in fact, what he's being charged with is, in fact, a crime and, second of all, that he has all exculpatory evidence. i came to the position and >> okay. speaking and writing in defense i think i see paul larkin in the of the american criminal justice back. [ inaudible ]. >> wait for the microphone, system because it occurred to me paul. >> paul larkin from the heritage foundation. i want to ask judge wilkinson a question because i think a lot of the arguments you're making go to blue collar crimes where i might be the only one who was going to do so. i read with greatest interest academic studies and discussions there is clearly a question that from this quarter and that quarter and there was a the defendant may or may not be
the one who committed it but there's no question a crime occurred. in the white collar area there probably is no doubt that everybody agrees what happened, relentless assault on the but it may not be a crime. criminal justice system, and the rules that you're talking nobody had anything much good to about may work very differently say about it. alex's presentation was on the in the two systems because if you're talking about the reasonable doubt standard criminal justice system, was helping the defendant, it very interesting, but i didn't notice that it was overflowing with compliments. doesn't help him if the question is whether what everybody admits happened is a crime. no judge decides whether this is a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. they decide whether this is or so i thought someone has got to is not a crime based on a more speak and write on behalf of this system. but don't get me wrong. i don't think for a minute and i likely than not standard, what would never try to persuade you that this is a perfect system seems more persuasive to them. without its flaws. and when you have crimes defined by regulations issued by it's run by human beings and a administrative agencies, you system that is human and dependent on human judgment is going to produce unfortunately hardly have judgments that reflect deep-seated popular norms and communal judgments of some examples of behavior that desert and retribution. no decent person would ever condone. it's not perfect, but the you have to look at this problem
differently in the white collar crimes. i don't think your arguments always work in that area. >> i think you raise a very question i kept coming back to is what do we replace it with. what would you do instead. interesting point. i really do. they are different species to be and that's where i think some of the critics fall short. sure. is what is the alternative. i'm always a little bit overpowered by powerpoint one of the main differences, of course, is what you referred to as blue collar crime, the vast presentations. i don't bring them to talks myself. i can throw statistics around at majority of defendants are indigent and they're going to be represented by appointed counsel or by public defender you just in the past couple of weeks, we've heard some very sad and sobering news about the organizations. number of homicides in baltimore for this year reaching 300 which when you get to a white collar is a great many more than that criminal situation, you have a different scheme of representation which is that you're dealing in the main, very the fine city has had been inflicted with for many, many years. often with retained counsel whom the criminal defendant has chosen. a recent article in the
washington post indicating that for 2014, the violent crime in adams morgan had increased 32% now the problem with the blue collar crime was a public defender may have too many over the previous year on capitol hill. cases. the problem with the white collar crime area, just because it had increased 26%. the lawyers have been retained and have chosen, that doesn't necessarily eliminate the resource disparity. and the difficulty often, it but these are sobering seems to me in the white collar statistics but i don't mean to make my case on them. i would simply say that when people say that we suffer that we're an outlier and suffer from area, is the agency, for example -- and this relates to civil infractions as well as to criminal prosecutions -- but the overincarceration, advance the modest proposition that some of these individuals thoroughly agency, because it's working on deserve to be incarcerated. the public trust or the public fist may have the resources to simply outlast you, and you're so many criticisms have been leveled in the last year by really esteemed academics that paying -- you're paying for your i'm hard-pressed to answer them all. counsel in that case and the one of the most frequent is that
state can drag the investigation the system is overly dependent out out. it can drag it on and drag it on and that can bleed you. and that, it seems to me, is a on human memory. that may be so but again, how problem both civilly and are we going to get around that? how do we -- how could it be otherwise? criminally that you have public we can't simply empanel a jury agencies with large amounts of appropriations and resources and private defendants with limited outside the yellow tape on a ones. so i think it's really a different paradigm, and i think crime scene. it's something that really needs to be addressed because there is it takes time to appoint a good amount of agency abuse. i've seen so many cases where they've kept people on the string for years and years and counsel. yea years. i'm glad you raised that question, sir, because it does it takes time to interview witnesses. indicate that not all of these so inevitably in the time that situations are the same. it takes to do a thorough and decent job at trial, it's going to be done after the criminal
>> yes, sir? event itself and we no, no. down here. first row. >> stewart gersen. inescapably and unavoidably are going to reply upon human memory as imperfect as it may be. my friend, the judge, says the prosecution enjoys an unfair i'd like you to comment on the advantage because it gets to present its case first and that's the case that sticks in the jury's mind. i'm not sure that's correct question of over criminalization because sometimes the word you hear last is the word that's both at the blue collar level most influential with you. but how else again could we do it. you can't have the defendant where oftentimes plea-bargain defending himself in a trial before he's ever been accused of anything. ing is fueled by multiple charges, very lengthy indictments that oftentimes have having the defendant go first is mandatory minimums or would subject a convicted defendant to so inconsistent with the substantial sentences under the guidelines and on the white collar side paul mentioned the myriad of regulations that have presumption of innocence that we would never accord it. criminal overtones. but more and more in the we would never accept it. i think this is just another example of an unfair knock upon the system. my opponent also says the system environmental crimes area and is so unfair because the police the health care area we're have the ability to widely investigate a crime and of course in the course of their seeing congress pass laws or
attempts made by prosecutors to investigation, they acquire a familiarity with evidence that the defendant doesn't have. charge crimes where mensrea is often not required or is but it's right because the party virtually absent. can either or both of you bringing suit almost always or comment on that? frequently enjoys an investigative advantage. >> you wrote an article. >> i edited it. so they do investigate because they are charged with initiating. >> yes, i'm talking to you. that's not an unfair advantage or something we can get around. the reality is it's very easy to believe it or not, i feel more comfortable that they are investigating. criminalize and to write very i would not want them to cut broad statutes and immediately corners and not investigate. delegate implementing to federal agencies. i would not want the police and prosecution to go forward with a half baked case. so a lot of stuff happens that people take for granted winds up being criminal or arguably criminal. you add to that the fact very so sometimes the investigation here that's put as an unfair
often if for whatever reason advantage actually turns up they want to go after somebody, evidence and offices who may have first thought that somebody did it think no further investigation has proved that they can stretch the terms of the law or they can refuse, you not to be the case at all. know, as they did in various cases in arthur anderson, argue judge kazinsky envisions a about whether or not there was a requirement or intent different role for criminal juries, perhaps, than they have played so far. requirement. he suggests that they go into without -- if you stretch these things far enough, there's really nobody you can't get. and nobody you can't put behind the eight ball and then force to the grim choice of going to the jury room with written instructions to accompany them. this is an argument that i think has two sides. on the one hand the written instructions can serve as a good reference point. trial andri risking huge penalts or taking a settlement. and lest you worry that, oh, the on the other hand we don't want rich do much better than the jurors acting like a bunch of poor because the poor get public defenders and the rich get their own lawyers, they're taking care of that problem now because now amateur lawyers and poring over written instructions rather than the federal government is going asking themselves the basic question is so and so guilty of in and seizing pretrial the a crime.
money they were going to use to but that question has two sides. hire a lawyer. what i don't think has two sides so they not only want you fight as alex's suggestion that the jurors, members of the jury ing a crime where the risks are huge for you where the terms are ill defined, where they refuse discuss a case among themselves while it's going on. i think that's dangerous simply on a practical matter. to instruction -- they take the it lengthens a trial. position that you don't get instruction, but they want to have a lawyer or they want to do the lawyer who is willing to do it for nothing. it's going to lengthen a trial a great deal and we have to remember that when we ask jurors to serve, we are asking them to this is the kind of stuff that worries me. cut out time from their day and ic i'm surprised my friend james wilkinson is complacent about to give of their time and things it. that lengthen in elongate that me, it gives me the willies. service are a further imposition upon them. but even more fundamentally do >> do you want to comment? you really want jurors talking >> the word overcriminalization is thrown around, it's a very with each other about their broad kind of phenomenon. impressions before all the evidence is in? i think it's much better that
jurors in order to be some part of it has been brought fair-minded wait until each side about that we have different has a full chance to present its evidence. species of crime such as cyber crime. alex suggests, well, we ought to bring juries in to sentencing. let's have jurors sentence. again, i disagree. we have the internet that has made possible all kinds of different crimes and more serious different crimes that probably didn't exist or didn't sentencing is fundamentally different from trial because the presumption of innocence has faded away. exist as a federal question before hand. so i think when you're looking at the proliferation and criminal laws you have to -- you and if you have juror sentencing, i don't think if they possess the day by day familiarity with a wide variety can't divorce it from some of the underlying changes in society that are taking place. of cases that a sentencing judge has and having jurors as sentencing is going to make it more and more like a trial itself and in that situation they are becoming more sophisticated and many of their operations are cross state lines we're going to have more and they do and so that's an evidentiary objections, more assignments of error, more assignments of error on appeal. invitation of the federal government to criminalize those
things if they cross state lines. what is happening accumulatively is we're trying to move closer and closer to a trial model on so part is a response to everything. electronics crimes, a response we're saying grand juries are to interstate crimes. that's part of it. handmade. we ought to have grand juries become a more adversary proceeding. legislators do like to take credit for enacting crimes and that seems to me to be a lively let's not have a secrecy. let's have juries get into the political question. sentencing act on collateral attack. let's have evidentiary hearings that rehash in many instances trial evidence. this is horrible behavior, we're if we keep going in this responding to the constituents direction in make of all these different proceedings, grand juries, collateral attacks, that may or may not be true. i think what you raise is a good question but i think it's more sentencing, events that more and of a question for a legislative more resemble the main event of a trial, we're going to have this system of ours collapsing of its own weight. hearing and political system to work itself out. as to whether prosecutors stack
crimes and stack charges, yes, there's been so many accusations at the criminal justice system. to some extent they do but can you know how sometimes when we -- can we really fault a prosecutor from enforcing laws that are on the books? somebody disagrees with you, and a lot of times they bring they throw so many arguments at you and you really say, gosh, i don't know where to begin. multiple charges because they some of these things that are don't know which ones the jury under fire these days are actually defendant friendly. is going -- a judge is going to dismiss and they don't know practices in my view and which ones a jury is going to acquit on, and so it's a matter pursuing a counterproductive path in trying to do away with them. of hedging bets. all i'm trying to suggest to you is you're on to something, but i think there's a reason for the take the question of preemptory challenges. phenomenon and i think that the i think most of you are familiar with those. fault may lie more with the that it gives a criminal defendant and a prosecution a impulse to criminalize for right to strike jurors from the jury for any reason they want. political credit at the
and the case was made by justice political level. >> i am afraid we have run out thurgood marshall a long time back that preemptory challenges ought to be done away with, ma of time, but would you please thank both of our speakers. [ applause ] back that they ought to be abolished and that particular position has been taken up i tonight think by my friend here everybody here is invited to a but by all the critics let's reception in the winter garden and we can continue the just do away with peremptory discussion there. thank you. challenges by jurors altogether because there's too much of a chance that they're going to be used racially in order to disqualify african-american jurors. and that has -- that has some c-span presents landmark validity to it. there's a case before the cases, the book, a guide to our supreme court where the race of landmark cases series which the juror was actually marked explores 12 historic supreme down by the prosecution, used as court decisions including a basis for peremptory marbury versus madison, komatsu challenges. and now that case is not before vs. united states, brown vs. the my court, but it seems to me board of education, miranda vs. that that kind of practice goes way beyond what we should be arizona, and roe vs. wade.
"landmark cases," the book, features introductions, prepared to accept. but do we really want to abolish background, highlights and the impact of each case. written by veteran supreme court peremptory challenges altogether? journalist tony mauro and in most jurisdictions the published by c-span in defendant gets more of these cooperation with cq press. peremptory challenges than the prosecution does. "landmark cases" is available for $8.95 plus shipping. and the defendant's exercise of get your copy today at the challenges -- exercise of those challenges is rarely c-span.org/landmarkcases. challenged. but peremptory challenges fill in an important gap in the all campaign long c-span takes criminal justice system. you on the road to the white because challenges for cause are house, unfiltered access to the never likely to eliminate all candidates at town hall meetings, rallies and speeches. biased jurors from the system. we're taking your comments on a challenge for cause is when twitter, facebook and by phone you have somebody and you say, and always every campaign event well, he's a prosecutor's first we cover is available on our cousin. we can't have him or her sitting website @c-span.org. on a jury as indeed we can't. but challenges for cause are simply the tip of the iceberg. you have to have peremptory >> next, marco rubio at the challenges to fill them out.
annual meeting in washington, d.c. he talked about homeland and a defendant certainly should security and the terror attack be able to say, i can't really put my finger on it, but i think in paris. this is about 45 minutes. this juror has it out for me, has it in for me. i don't want this person sitting on my jury. and a defendant should be able, no questions asked, to strike that individual. >> thank you very much indeed. welcome back. i hope you enjoyed your dinner. and so i part company and, we move into the real meat of again, i'm not sure alex has the evening now. made this point, i don't think he has, but i part company with seven years ago a 40-something a large number of critics who say they can be misused, as they first term senator with an can, that we shouldn't really use them at all. inspiring life story was elected president of the united states i want to deal with so much of running in a campaign from the what alex had to -- had to say other party who was a solid generation older than he was. dealt with prosecutorial abuse. and there are undoubtedly we may get a chance to find out whether history repeats itself in such close proximity. instances about where ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the stage senator prosecutors have behaved in a from florida and republican presidential candidate, marco shameful way, and alex has
rubio. highlighted some of those. [ applause ] the ted stevens trial was >> thank you. outrageous. my friend is correct on that in every way. >> thank you. but, alex, tell us you really good to see you again. milwaukee one week. twice in one week. thank you very much, indeed, for being here. didn't mean it when you said that you were going to abrogate, i want to start with the news from paris and the atrocity that abolish absolute immunity from took place there on friday and the reaction to it. prosecution, for prosecutors. i was watching tv today and does your -- does your position really take you that far? your article seems to suggest they're l that we should do away with there on split screen was president hollande and president obama speaking at the g-20 meeting in turkey. president hollande was absolute immunity for incredibly forceful. he said he declared war. he declared this an act of war. prosecutions. and i disagree on that. enabled the french to take i think it's very damaging to robust action to prosecute the war. have a civil damages action french warplanes have been in brought against a prosecutor action over the weekend. he's called for a completely different approach to how we deal with this problem of radical islam. every time there is an
acquittal. president obama by contrast esently said we continue with the same strategy. sometimes when you -- and that's we're going to intensify the what would happen if we strategy and he saved most of abrogated this community -- this his animous for critics at home immunity. and sometimes you can create who have been criticizing him when you create a cause of for not doing enough. action for civil damages, you run the risk of having five on this issue whether or not what happened in france on friday requires a fundamental change and a fundamental insubstantial suits for every strategic revision of what we're doing or whether or not we can one that might conceivably have continue to do what we're doing, where do you stand? merit. you say if we did away the >> it doesn't require fundamental change and it absolute immunity for required it before the attack on prosecutors, what would we friday. it's required it for the better replace it for -- what would we part of a year and a half if not replace it with. and the answer i get most often, two years. i think the problem the president finds himself in is well, you don't have to have one of domestic politics. he ran for the presidency as full absolute immunity. you can have qualified immunity. part of his mandate he felt was but qualified immunity really to extract the united states does turn out to be no immunity from further entanglement in the at all. middle east. because qualified immunity runs he want to get us out of up against a summary judgment afghanistan, out of iraq and did standard. and a summary judgment standard not reentangle you us. says that all inferences have to global affairs and history doesn't stop. the truth is as this issue has
be given to the nonprevailing gotten worse and worse, it will take a more robust engagement to party, which would never be turn the corner on this conflict prosecutor in the event the and the president won't make prosecutor moved for summary that commitment and, in fact, judgment. and so the summary judgment won't make that commitment as well. standard would draw these cases into trial. by and large from a strategic point of view the u.s. does not and the supreme court has said have a well-defined strategy and in the absence of an american many times that an immunity is strategy towards isis and jihadism in general, you won't essentially lost if someone has to go through a trial to prevail be able to pull together a on it. coalition that's effective. you can tie up prosecutorial only americans leadership can resources in this way to an lead such a coalition. extent that more and more we're going to have prosecutors doing i think the president is constrained by not only his everything but prosecuting. ideology but the political considerations of not wanting to and the defendant -- i mean, the supreme court has been reentangle us in another absolutely firm on this question conflict. the choice before us is do we that we not overdeter confront it while it remains prosecutors from bringing largely based in iraq, syria and prosecutions that do need to be libya or do we allow it to
continue to expand the way it is now doing. brought. sometimes prosecutors decline >> if you were president in a for various reasons to prosecute year's time you could well be president elect, what would you cases that should be brought. sometimes it's easier to simply do specifically? >> i know we can't do this but pick the low-hanging fruit. what i was talking about in 2012 some cases are easier and less and it was the argument this uprising was not caused by the risky to work up than others. united states. and so you run the risk of going the syrian civil war was a from one end of the pendulum to function of disaffected sunnis another. rebelling against the assad which i think would be the case regime. assad regime led to brutal force if we did what my esteemed that led to this uprising. the record is clear. if we do not find members that colleague is suggesting. have uprise that go we can work with, this conflict will be there's an attack on plea bargaining leveled by some very filled by radical jihadists, particularly foreign fighters that also played out on libya. sophisticated and thoughtful people. and the idea is that it's nothing but an assembly line and because of the huge volume you've seen this play out. people are just running through it is my belief isis can only be defeated by sunnis themselves. without any sensitivity to their
they must be defeated by sunnis. rights and we have guilty peolye i believe they will have to be the predominant force on the ground that defeats them of the risks that they might militarily, they pull together face a more serious punishment the coalition to do so. at trial. in the short term i think it this picture of plea bargaining would require high-profile american special operations that which is at the heart of so much of the attack on the criminal target key nodes in the isis justice system needs to be network that videotape all of qualified. this and publicize it. much of what isis is doing is a certainly public defenders are correct when they say that propaganda. they use the propaganda to create an imagery of themselves they're in need of more as an invincible, unstoppable resources and that they have too force and this is what is many cases on their docket. attracting and inspiring fighters all over the world to join their cause and also to but you can't deny somebody the right to cop what may be a very obtain low action abroad. >> the president has authorized advantageous plea because nowhere in the criminal justice operations? >> they have an insufficient number. >> how far would you go? >> ultimately the numbers need process -- nowhere -- does a to be set by the tacticians. defendant have more leverage their job is to come up with a than at the plea stage. strategy to carry this out and prosecutor doesn't want to go to trial. then tell us the numbers required to do so. he doesn't want to expend those
resources. >> much more than 50? he's willing to plead. >> i don't believe 50 is and rule 11 in the plea sufficient to carry out the bargaining process provides a operations. i also think we need to continue criminal defendant with all to increase our air strikes and kinds of options, having charges that includes moving more of our dismissed, having charges not be basing of those aircraft not brought, having a judge accept just to turkey but potentially the recommended sentence if the to iraq if they'll allow us and judge agrees to the plea bargain. they should allow us because the fact we have to travel these after trial those options are long distances means there are less strikes we can conduct. you need special operators on generally off the table. the ground in order to make the defendant just doesn't have those strikes more effective. in the process of doing all of the leverage anymore. this, i think we must begin to empower both sunni tribes in and the prosecutor's already iraq and syria and in jordan, spent those resources in trial saudi arabia, egypt and ask more and he said, well, you have of them in providing of forces nothing to offer me now. that will comprise the bulk of a i've already done this. ground force that ultimately i've already gone to trial. drives isis from the role that maybe they shouldn't be thinking they're now playing, but it has that way. but that's the way it plays out to be a predominantly sunni-led sometimes. effort. the kurds can hold their and a defendant by going to trial risks forfeiting a territory and we should help them in that regard. this is a complex issue. we're going to have an issue with the shia militias many in three-level reduction for acceptance of responsibility or if he's patently lying, he's
the control of the iranians. going to get a two-level increase for obstruction of justice. we have to anticipate that. and ultimately i do not believe i don't want to be any of this is possible as long misunderstood, because trial is as assad or the assad regime a crucial right. remains in power. people have every right in our they are one of the primary country to exercise it. irritants that have create this had sectarian strife that it would be wrong, incredibly allowed isis to find fertile wrong, to pressure people to do ground. away with it. their removal has to be a key component. that's why the presence of but here's the thing. russians in syria -- >> you do stick with the i talk to criminal defense attorneys, and they say, you strategy that assad has to go. >> absolutely. >> you saw what president know, i do have some regrets in hollande said today who called upon greater q eer cooperation. my career. and some of those regrets center >> you defeat isis and assad is around plea bargaining. in power, you'll be delg with l i should have encouraged my client to take a plea. instead he went to trial and got dealing with al nusra. i'm not telling you syria will clobbered. become canada anytime in our lifetime or the near future. i am say that go there's greater and they say, you know, trial is stability necessary and, in fun for me. particular, our primary national it's fun for me as a criminal defense attorney, but i'm not security interest is not to
allow there to be any safe the one doing the time. operating space from which these groups can grow. it's my client that's doing the you see what's happening in time. libya largely under reported up and i just -- if i had encouraged my client to take to this point. libya has now become the primary this plea, he would have gotten space where they recruit and bring foreign fighters for training and export. perfectly positioned in libya to a much better deal than he conduct operations in sinai, eventually did. egypt and into europe as well. and i think libya is a growing prosecutors, we can go on for problem in this regard. >> you would authorize more forces in the region, perhaps in syria as well as in iraq. many, many more minutes, but i >> and in libya. >> who is the principle enemy? don't want to do that. is it assad or islamic state? >> i think they're interrelated i want to just if i may have the in that assad and his treatment time summarize here something of sunnis in particular has served as one of the irritants that create add sunni that is frankly very close to my instability. the isis forces have taken heart. advantage of that and others as well, al nusra, too. i commend the innocence project isis is the one now conducting these attacks. i think as long as there's an talking about the horrible wrong assad or assad regime in power, that is done to an innocent the irritant will be there that will lead to another radical individual. it's just horrible.
sunni movement taking advantage of what's happening. and we can't really sugarcoat that. again, it is not our job to put syria back together but we can it's wrong also in a lesser most certainly ensure that there sense to society because it are at least elements on the ground that prevent the creation leaves the true offender at of these safe havens from which large. so, you do a double injustice. radical sunni elements can and i tonight want you to get organize, coalesce, train, fundraise, attract fighters and ultimately conduct operations. the idea -- you might say, judge >> the russians say that assad is the only plausible altern it wilkinson, you are a real tiff to islamic state and that stick-in-the-mud. that's what my wife and my if you continue to try to topple assad, you're going to friends tell me, so you wouldn't strengthen islamic state and get be alone. more and more attacks. join the crowd. >> i don't think assad has been is there anything you're for? successful at all in targeting the islamic state and neither yeah. a lot. have the russians for that matter. the russian conduct in the in terms of reform of the region, the vast majority have criminal justice system. been against non-isis, i think suggestions of body non-jihadi elements. cameras on police are a good that's the outcome putin wants. ideal. i think it's absolutely crucial putin wants to find himself in a that police and prosecutors who situation after he's wiped out all the non-isis fighters on the are conducting a line-up or a ground that he can then turn to photo i.d., they should not know the world and say in syria there are only two groups left, assad who the suspect is. and isis. whose side are you on? because if they know who the i'm not sure he's wedded to suspect is, they're going to
nudge and push the witness and assad personally but the regime, direct them toward that individual. so, we need to have blind photo a pro-russian regime that allows i.d.s which are much less in my him not just the land basing but the sea base as well and the view subject to manipulation. geopolitical foothold that he's been in the middle east is a key the suggestion that we have open component for that reason files. because this is multifaceted. we should move in the direction it allows him to show his of prosecutorial open files, and country and the world he is a i think the idea of videotaping power broker on par with the united states. it allows the world to be interrogations is something that distracted from ukraine. you see no discussion of should be discussed as well. ukraine. it allows him internally in i don't think these are constitutional values, but russia to appear as a strong they're the kind of values that ought to be brought up in the global leader which he hopes nationalism covers up for the economic catastrophe that is the russian economy and the experience of the russian states and discussed among people. >> you reject the idea we make individual trial judges, and common cause against an enemy which is the islamic they're the kind of things that fundamentalism? may lead to some useful reforms >> as long as the russian strategy is what it remains now. once we see how they work out in by and large the strategy up different jurisdictions. until this point has been to so i don't want to wipe out the non-isis fighters and then force the world into constitutionalize them that it, assad and isis and i think introduces too much rigidity into the system, but i do want
that further complicates our there to be dialogue about these ability to work with him. things and experimentation. and there's one last little >> you called for a no-fly zone thing and this won't take me over syria. that -- that could potentially -- the president long. ridiculed that today and said i think it is sad today that the criminal justice system has most islamic state has no air become a scapegoat for all the capability and that assad has different ways in which we have been using very limited air failed our disadvantaged forces and that would run -- that would lead to a direct communities. we have failed to provide confrontation with the russians. the russians who are flying -- >> for the thousands killed by opportunity, educational the barrel bombs dropped from opportunities, opportunities in both helicopters, primarily for jobs, in occupations and school, two points. one is to allow refugees fleeing opportunities for a decent chance in life. and so many -- so much of what the conflict to find a place to go that doesn't involve the dangerous fraternity and the we find to criticize in our unstable journey into europe and the other is to allow a place criminal justice system is simply a reflection of this where non-assad syrians can larger difficulty in not organize themselves as an alternative to assad long term providing our disadvantaged but an effective fighting force, communities what they're due. sunnis removing a sunni jihadist without the criminal justice movement. system, though, it would make a they need a safe operating bad situation even worse. space. the only people with a safe operating space is in libya. it's with the islamic state has we would not have -- we would
been able to establish and one not have safe streets without a more point about isis because i police presence. want to be on the record about drug lords and gang leaders this. they are growing in influence in would rule the inner city more than we already do. afghanistan. they are in an open competition for the taliban to track sunni people would prey on the most vulnerable and addiction would destroy moral more lives. fighters away and towards them. they are starting to percolate in pakistan which is a dangerous development given that they are afternoon 9/11 people kept -- a nuclear arm state. flocked to the criminal justice designed for purposes of as a far better alternative than fostering sectarian strife. military tribunals and when i i think you'll see greater talk to people who have come engagement on sinai and into back here from abroad, they tend egypt and they have as a clear goal targeting the kingdom in to respect the american criminal saudi arabia and in jordan. justice system more than any other with which they have been they're primely positioned to do that towards jordan. acquainted. this is a group that is not so, i urge you not to move from contained and is growing in its capabilities in the region and one extreme to the other, but has already shown growing in let's recover this sense of capabilities and external balance as we view our criminal operations as well. >> just to be clear, russians justice system. what i'm asking you to do is are flying many sorties and it please give american could bring the united states into direct confrontation with institutions and this one in the russians. particular a fair trial. thank you. you're comfortable with that.
>> i think that we would be more than capable of discouraging the russians from conducting those >> okay. we're going to have a very brief second round, five minutes each. attacks. that would be their choice. we have a superior military >> well, i am glad to see that capability in that region, number one. judge wilkinson has come around number two, there's no excuse to to my view. be bombing a no-safe zone largely made up of refugees and i have never suggested that we non-assad rebels who are there ought to tear down the criminal for the purpose of reclaiming their country and defeating the justice system and start from scratch. islamic state if, in fact, i think there are many areas russia's fight in the region is against isis, then they will incremental change can happen. have no reason to be flying over judge wilkinson talked about a no-fly zone because there memory and he says, well, won't be any isis fighters in there's nothing to do about the the territory. >> what needs to be done here in fact that trials take time and the united states to deal with that memories fade. this threat? but there are things we can do it's clear again friday showed to preserve memories and there how palpable this threat is and are things we can do to keep how real this threat is from memories from being misshapen. potentially domestically most of judge wilkinson has offered at these seem to have been french least one solution. if you have a line-up, the citizens, this issue of a officers conducting the lineoff migrant, too. ought not to know who the what needs -- how vulnerable is the united states domestically to this kind of attack and what suspect is. would you do to deter it? it's very simple. because we know if they know who >> we are vulnerable. what happened in paris could they are, they will communicate happen in a major american city
that or can communicate that to at any moment at any time not the defendants -- to the victim. that there's a specific threat i will share or know about, we stuff like that. know this is true that there is, that kind of change, that kind in fact, elements that seek to of incremental change can happen strike us here in the homeland in all these areas having to do and have the capability to do so. it's a question whether they can with memory, having to do with carry it out and we have disrupted plots and the danger perception, having to do with investigation, so on. judge wilkinson says we should is multifaceted. it is external operators who could be sent here or have been move towards open file sent here for a specific purpose discovery. i'm with him. i think this is wonderful. i think he and i agree on this and it's also lone actors. point. that is an incremental change lone actors that gain tactical that really needs serious advice online about how to consideration. and i'm so glad to hear that he's on board. i mean it not at all ironically. conduct an attack to inflict i'm very pleased and i thank maximum casualties. you've seen efforts of that as well. intelligence programs are so cato for sort of bringing us important. i think it's a distinctive together for -- no, no, i'm -- debate in the presidential race. so we're not as far apart as it two colleagues aspiring to the would seem. judge wilkinson has spent some time talking about reforms that presidency, senator cruz in particular, have voted to weaken i have not proposed and do not the u.s. intelligence programs just in the last month and a endorse. i do not think we should do away half. and the weakening of our with peremptory challenges. gathering capabilities leaves and i certainly don't think we americans vulnerable and that is should do away with plea bargaining.
exactly what's happened. everything he said on those subjects i agree with. we have weakened through a so, those -- and there are combination of disclosures by a critics who make those suggestions, but i'm not with them. traitor, edward snowden, and, i will come out and disappoint also, through the weakening in judge wilkinson on absolute our own laws of important programs that now are being immunity. yes, absolute immunity needs to phased out and as a result will cost us the ability to gather go. just to make sure you all actionable intelligence against elements operating in our understand what absolute territory. immunity means, it means if you >> one issue is this issue of are prosecuted and you surveillance and some of the manufacture evidence and you put technology companies, apple in it on trial, you went home, you particular, have got -- have been very, very emphatic in create a document and you then go to court and present it as a making the point that they want to protect their users' privacy document that has been -- and you do it on your photoshop and that their privacy is machine or whatever it is to important and as we know and make it look like it's in the probably will find out increasingly from france and defendant's handwriting, introduce it at the trial and you can -- and the defendant elsewhere that there are all kinds of communications now that gets convicted because of that, literally can't be accessed you cannot be sued. because of the changes made. would you force the technology you are absolutely immune. companies to make that -- to make more of that information available? >> the number one obligation of you subourn perjury, if you the federal government is to provide for the national security of the united states. if someone in the federal government is found abusing these programs and authorities, threaten witnesses, you are
absolutely immune. the reason the supreme court they should be fired and prosecuted for having done so. that said, we need to have said don't worry about it, don't real-time access to any worry about it, because you give actionable intelligence that absolute immunity to will allow us to save american lives. the united states government has prosecutors, they will get neither the confidence, the prosecuted because those things are crimes. money, or the time to spy on well, for all those defendants and all of those instances we every american. that's not happening. we need to have access to this information in order to save have seen where prosecutors have lives in an exigent misbehaved and have done far circumstance. we need the cooperation of these worse than i suggested, they companies but ultimately the authority of the united states may be necessary because at the manufactured, where they have intimidated, where they have provided hidden evidence, where end of the day the number one they have concealed evidence of obligation of the federal government is to protect us from a threat unlike any we have ever exculpatory knowingly kept it faced. this is a unique threat. and when you mentioned about the out that resulted in 10, 15, 20, technologies, you're talking about encryption which is now 30 years of sometimes people increasingly being used as these going to their execution, the groups have improved their total time that the prosecutor capability at communications spent behind bars has been six security, they have gotten days. better at how they communicate with each other. they have improved. two prosecutors, ken anderson they have learned both from the got nine days, nine days, for disclosures of snowden and others but also from failures in the 25 years that michael morton the past. they've leshd learned from it and improved. spent in prison. we need to stay ahead of that. he served four or five of them. five of them. and there's one more prosecutor that guarantee we'll prevent every possible attack?
it will not. whose name i don't remember sadly, no matter how good we get served one day. it doesn't happen. at intelligence gathering, this threat is so unique and prosecutors don't prosecute multifaceted we will not be able other prosecutors. to prevent every single one of it doesn't happen. so, that's -- i just don't think it's a possibility. them. i do believe that the weakening of the current programs have qualified immunity? left us unnecessarily vulnerable i don't know. to some of these attacks or the i'm glad -- i'm so surprised to follow-up attacks in the networks that support those attacks. >> what about the issue of the hear that in the fourth circuit it's so easy to survive a motion syrian migrants? for summary judgment in a president said the u.s. will qualified immunity case. accept 10,000 syrian migrants. we are firm -- we are firm i think today as many as 11 state governors have come out summary judgment for defendants and said they won't accept in qualified immunity cases all migrants in their own states. the time. where do you stand on that? and what's more, and this is >> so this is a tough issue because it goes to the core of what judge wilkinson knows, if who we've always been as a people which is a nation that you file, if you seek qualified sefbs as a beacon of hope and immunity and you seek summary judgment on it and don't get it, you get an immediate appeal. inspiration to those fleeing nobody else in the federal oppression. the flip side we have to provide system gets an immediate appeal, for our own national security and nothing can supersede that. but if you are somebody subject my problem with the migrants is in the migrant situation it's to qualified immunity like a not that we don't want to accept policeman or another officer, migrants, i'm not sure we can. you get immediate appeal. in fact, i'm increasingly it's not like you have to wait to the end of trial to see convinced we can't at least at this stage in the process. whether or not that is -- so i think qualified immunity is you cannot accurately do a
perfectly fine and i think that background check on 10,000 if prosecutors thought that people. it's not like you can pick up the phone and call the syrian being actually held personally government and find out who liable, even if it's paid for by somebody is, as if the documents that people are bringing from abroad are reliable in terms of their employer, but personal what they're saying. in fact, often they're easily liability, then maybe they forged. it is not easy to conduct a wouldn't worry so much about coming up with prosecutions background check on someone that's coming from that part of where the only purpose is to put the world. it on their resume so they can and here's the problem. go shop for a fat job you allow 10,000 people in, afterwards. 9,999 of them are innocent thank you. people fleeing oppression and one is a well-trained isis fighter. >> judge wilkinson, five you have a huge problem on your minutes. hands. and that's the problem that we have with this program. it's not that we don't want to do it and it's not that we as a >> you go back on absolute and nation's heart doesn't break. prosecutorial -- absolute and what if we get one of them wrong, just one of them wrong? qualified immunity for a very long time. the consequences could be one of the things that troubles extraordinary, and that's why i think a better approach is to me about my good friend's create these havens within the middle east where some of these presentation is that we do when are ancient communities present for over 2,000 years are being we talk about forensic evidence driven from their ancestral and when we talk about homelands and it would be much better to leave them in the prosecutorial prosecutions that region in safety than drive have never been brought, we hundreds of thousands of people permanently away from a region
of the world where they have always talk about things that links that go back millennia. misfired. but what you never, ever hear >> back to many of the other hot about are the prosecutions where button issues in the presidential election campaign right now, immigration following a prosecutor in the exercise of on from tt. a few years ago you were part of good judgment simply says, no, the so-called gang of eight, the evidence is too ambiguous republicans and democrats who here to go forward with the worked together in the senate to come up with a plan which got case. approved by the senate to allow or there are mitigating circumstances that should not -- we should not go forward with citizenship for the illegal the case. immigrants here in the united in other words, there are many, many, many cases where states. prosecutors decline to you've changed your view since then to some extent, in prosecute. and not one of them makes for important respects to regard to citizenship versus permanent the kind of vivid anecdote that residency and you've been attacked by the likes of senator the cases of ill founded cruz in particular and others prosecutions do. but when you read these for having essentially supported amnesty in the past and have now statistical studies, please changed your position. understand that cases where what -- where are you now and there's decline to taking action how do you respond to that or where there's inaction, they charge? >> let me clarify a couple don't make the statistical points. first of all, everybody running for the nomination for the presidency on the republican side supports legalizing people studies and they don't make the
here illegally. donald trump wants them to leave highlight reels and the power before he legalizes and then point presentations, but they're real and they save many, many he's going to legalize them and bring them back in. everyone else has supported in individuals who should not be in the toils of the criminal the past or supports legalizing justice system from being swept up in it. some people including senator and it's the same thing with cruz who not only sponsored an forensic evidence. there's many times where that evidence is not introduced amendment but was still talk in because it's too iffy, and yet when a lab doesn't introduce about support of it. i think he should be asked those things, are you ever going whether he's changed his to hear about it? position. no. >> i'm talking -- no, beyond you're never going to hear about it. what i'm saying is that those instances where evidence is not this, he wanted a 500% increase put forward because it's tainted in the program but beyond that or situations where prosecutions he also wanted to bring people out of the shadows and legalize don't go forward, those are the great silences. but they often work in the them. just not grant them citizenship. defendant's favor. if he has changed his position on that, he has a right to change his position. if i have just a minute or two, he should be asked to clarify i'd like to talk briefly about what his position is today. in 2013 i endeavored to deal sentencing because it's a huge issue and it's on everybody's mind. with immigration reform because i believe this country needs to deal with it and i felt at the time that we had an opportunity to produce the best possible yet we've overdone mandatory bill out of the senate in the hopes that the house would take it up and improve it even minimums, but there were reasons congress put in mandatory further and then offer the
president a choice about minimums. immigration reform or not because the truth is the and that was congress was very democrats had the majority of distrustful of judges granting the house and the senate and the such things as probations for presidency for two years beginning in 2008 and did very serious crimes, that there absolutely nothing on immigration. were some judges who seemed very therefore, they have no standing to criticize republicans on it. what i learned from that experience is this. the american people have zero intuitively incapable of trust in the federal government imposing punishments. to enforce the law. the american people recognize we they do serve their purpose in need to deal with this issue. some instances, mandatory we need to fix what we have. minimums. we need to deal with the people because it's the fear of that that are already here in a responsible way but they're not mandatory minimum that willing to do it unless they can be assured this is never going encourages someone to turn to happen again and just passing states evidence. a law that says we're going to now, do we always need a mandatory minimum to encourage enforce immigration law is not enough. they want to see it actually somebody to turn state's done. that was an extraordinary revelation. evidence and cooperate with the prosecution? no, we do not. they want to see it in place and but the prosecution has to have some sort of stick in this see it working before they get the political support to do anything else. situation. look, the only way we're going why? because the small fry who are to move forward begins with going to testify against larger proving to the american people that it's under control that drug lords and drug leaders, illegal immigration into the that takes guts. united states has been that takes courage.
and is likely to be retaliation substantially lowered to a level that people are comfortable with and we know what it takes to do that. not just more physical security when those higher up the chain on the border but employment of a drug organization hear that verification system that's cost you're cooperating with the effective, that allows us access state. in real time to the names of and so without -- without a those who are in the country stiff sentence to balance the illegally because they overstayed a visa, almost half equation you're not going to get the people illegally. i think as part of that the cooperation and move up the second step would need to be chain on these gangs and these drug organizations. modernizing our system so it's why do we go after the small fry more efficient and merit based so that the primary cry titeria sometimes? why not just head to the top? well, because the leaders of an that is allowing someone to immigrate is what can they organization are far more contribute economically not whether or not they have a relative living here. skilled sometimes at covering once we've done those two things, i think the american their tracks and minimizing people will be very reasonable their risk and pushing the about what do you do with someone who has been here for ten years who isn't otherwise -- smaller fry who get paid the has not otherwise violated the least and bear the greatest law? and i think the process you come forward, if you can't pass the risk. and you just -- there's no background check, you have to leave. if you pass the background practical alternative than to check, you have to learn begin at the bottom sometimes english, start paying taxes, pay when you're trying to crack a a fine and you get a work permit and that's all you're going to large organization, a very violent and ruthless one. have for at least ten years is a and move up.
i want to say something about work permit that you need to renew and at the end of the ten whether sentences are too severe years i -- this is not a majority position in my party -- and talk a little bit about the but i am personally open to allowing people to apply for a sentencing guidelines. green card like anybody else would. we moved from a wholly discretionary system which was others are saying leave them with the work permit. what we had. i want to just tell you one little story. back before -- before 1987 when the best we can do is a work the sentencing guidelines permit, it's better than what we weren't in effect, there were have now. i personally am open to the idea of allowing people to apply for two wonderful judges in a green card after the ten-year charleston, west virginia. period, but i just don't think and they were both friends of you can do this all at once. mine and they were both honest i know you can't because it's been tried three or four times and hard working judges who over the last decade and a half wanted to do the right thing. and each time is met with they were at the opposite ends failure. there is no comprehensive of the hall of the courthouse. approach to immigration reform that has a chance of passage anytime in the near future. >> you're striking a different and one judge -- one judge tone both from the tone you struck a couple years ago and invariably gave probation and a from the tone that was very striking in the debate last week we were at where governor bush nice sweet avuncular lecture to and governor kasich were empattic in responding to ted the person that appeared before cruz in saying it's inhumane -- him. and another judge brought down the hammer. also donald trump -- it's and it was perfectly clear that inhumane. this is not the american way. the lawyers one task, paramount
there are people here who have been here for many, many years. we're not going to send them goal, was to get the client away. we're not going to pull parents away from their children. before the right judge. that was what needed to be done. they were very passionate about and that is why the sentencing the humanitarian consequences here. you seem to be much more empa guidelines came into effect. sis emphasis on enforcement. >> there's no right to emigrate we now have -- we went too far to any country in the world including the united states. do i understand the human and curbed district court aspect? yes. discretion too much. that's what makes this a difficult issue. what we now have with the you're dealing with human beings, some of whom have very decision of gull v united states is a system which calls for compelling stories that will break your heart, others who are guided discretion which taking advantage of the system, and i see it all. eliminates the wild immigration is not something i inconsistencies of the read about in a book. pre-guidelines era. and at the same time gives it's not a frontline, it's district judges the ability to something that i've lived. my family are immigrants. take the human individual before every single one of my them into account. neighborhoods is an immigrant or a first generation american. so, this is an example of where i know every aspect of the criminal justice system immigration personally and i know the good, the bad and the after swinging from one extreme ugly of this whole system. to another, the pendulum, god i believe that if we deal with bless the pendulum that finally people that are in this country illegally we do so because they arrives in the right place and
have appealed to our compassion strikes the right balance. and also to our common sense and and this is what happened here. what's good to the country but there is no right to illegally and maybe alex -- maybe alex and i can close on a truly immigrate to the united states. we do so because it's in the harmonious note. maybe you agree with me here, best interests of america and i do think people will be reasonable. alex, you're not nodding -- >> it depends on what the "here" i also understand that we're not going to grant blanket amnesty. is. we still have mandatory minimums. if we do away with those, maybe it's unfair and undermines our we -- >> no, i'm not for doing away ability encouraging more people to come illegally in the future. with them. >> i guess the answer is no. >> okay. if we can prove that illegal immigration is under control and we can modernize, most share my view and are willing to be we're going to open it up and realistic and responsible about what you do with those who have take your questions now. i do have three requests. been here and can pass a when i call on you, please wait background check. >> the economy, particularly for our microphone to arrive so everybody can hear your question. please identify yourself and any tax taxes. affiliation that you might have, they are all offering tax reform and keep your questions brief so and tax reductions and, you that we can get to as many know, there's much less concern people as possible. yes. this time than there was the gentleman in the back.
compared with mitt romney in 2012 about revenue neutral. >> thank you. my name is steven keat. i'm speaking for myself. all offering tax plans that would even with some dynamic judge kosinski, i found your scoring would increase the presentation very convincing. deficit. let me ask you about your particular plan which puts much >> well, thank you. >> thank you. two slides in particular at the more -- you don't cut the top very beginning i found rates of personal taxes much. impressive. the one on prison population and you just bring that top rate the number of people in the down to 35%. would you emphasize a massive expansion in child tax credit. world, the great number here in the united states, as a i asked you about this last week. percentage of the world. but i was wondering, two countries in particular iran and china, only china was on the estimates of $150 billion for slide, they have a tendency to the expansion of tax credit. go and execute people fairly quickly. is that, you know, factored into they become very hard -- and your statistics at all? i'm not trying to discount your they're refundable, too. statistics, but i'm just wondering? >> i don't know. those are accepted statistics. very hard to reduce. i didn't consider. isn't this just another big i do know they have executions entitlement program that you're in china. i don't think that they're in creating for low income families the millions or in the thousands and children? or hundreds of thousands that >> tax policy is not an would affect the figure entitlement. tax policy can be reformed and significantly, but i don't know.
changed as we're advocating we >> yes, down here. do now. the first is you can't just look >> thank you. wonderful presentation. clark neeley from the institute at the top rate in a vacuum for justice. because for example, we take all business income including that of pass through companies, many are paying on their personal rate that could be as high as sidney documents in her book that the stevens prosecution was one of the great debacles in the 39.5% and we lower all income. history of doj, i think there to a flat rate of 25%. was agreement on that. we allow for immediate and full systematic misconduct on the part of the u.s. attorneys involved, i believe if i recall expensing. the book correctly, the worst punishment handed out to any of the loopholes that now exist in those attorneys was a transfer the tax code. to another office. ken anderson as a prosecutor cost a man 25 years in jail by committing criminal contempt of court and withholding evidence i believe we now taxes on a that should have been produced. he got less than a week in jail. worldwide system. these are dramatic changes. >> that would include should americans have confidence repatriation -- >> $2 trillion of american in a system where prosecutors corporate cash is overseas. regulate themselves and show the equivalent of the gdp of such lenience in the face of such indefensible conduct? russia. we're going to get a significant portion of it if we move to a territorial system of taxation. >> you want to start? the issue on the personal side, you asked about the tax credit, >> i am not trying to create and then i want to talk about the debt because it's related to contempt for our criminal the issue of revenue neutrality. justice system. i do agree with much of what
judge wilkinson says. it's a good system. i think that the tax credit i it's a system that is made up propose is not just pro family, largely of people who -- who try it's pro-work. you can't get the tax credit if you don't work. to do a good job and try to do so, number one, it's a pro-work it fairly and scrupulously. tax. the other is it takes into account a very unique 21st what i've pointed to is the fact that there are enough glitches, century reality. and that is that it is expensive to raise a family in the 21st enough problems with the system, that we as a society ought to be century. there are significant costs associated with raising children in the 21st century and for worried. so, when you say lack working families the tax code should reflect that by allowing confidence, have confidence, i think we should have confidence people to keep more of their own in our system. money for things like saving for but i don't think it's inconsistent to have confidence and have doubt. college. for things like paying for child trust but verify. care which at least 30 out of 50 and i think when we see that our states is as if not more expensive than going to college. system in which we do have for things like the fact that i confidence, in which we have a long track record, has problems with it, has issues are raised know i'm raising four kids now, you can buy shoes for them in january and by march or april you have to get new shoes. these are real expenses that face working families. that challenge that confidence, so it's a pro-family, and it's also a pro-work endeavor that i think what we do is not tries to reflect the tax code develop contempt for the system, that reflects the reality of the but what we want to do is find 21st century life for a growing
number of americans. solutions. make changes. be flexible enough to take the on the issue of the debt, we need to understand the debt's importance is not just the criticisms into account and make dollar. the system better. if italy had a $5 trillion debt >> yeah. it would be a catastrophe. i should warn you, i have a we wouldn't be talking about the debt because we'd have an $18 hearing impairment. and the harder your questions trillion economy gdp. get, the worse my hearing our goal is to bring the debt becomes. down to a sustainable level as a percentage of the overall size of our economy. there will always be some level of government debt but it has to be a manageable level. i was only making the point how do you do that through a combination of two things? about, you know, hoping i could number one, dramatically grow bring alex along, but i seem not your economy through robust to have succeeded. growth which is what the business side of the plan tries >> keep working at it. to do in taxes along with regulatory reform because the growth comes from the business >> that we shouldn't abrogate side of the tax code and the second thing is you must tackle absolute immunity for prosecutors because what we're entitlement programs. i'm from florida. there are a lot of people on talking about here is a private medicare and social security in florida. that's not well known. civil action for damages with a lot of people are on medicare probably very few restraints on and social security. my mother is one of them. >> we've seen them driving cars. it. and those will very quickly >> my mother is one of them. he said that not me.
my mother's one of them. she's 85 years old. multiply and tie down resources to a great extent. i don't want anything that's bad for her. now, alex makes the point in we still have time to save the rebuttal that, well, but programs in a way that brings prosecutors aren't going to long-term spending trends under control without disrupting prosecute prosecutors. but that seems to me to fall anything for current beneficiaries. but we need a president and a public official that will be honest with people like me. i'm 44 years old. short. because it doesn't answer the my medicare and social security question of why a private civil is going to look different than my mother's one way or the action for damages against a other. it will be a program that's facing a crisis or it will be prosecutor is the remedy we want to choose. there are many other options on changed. i'll have to retire at 68 the table. instead of 67. and one of those options would my benefits may not grow as fast. it could be taking my medicare lie within the department of money and purchasing a private plan that i like better. justi these are not unreasonable justice, and you can have some changes and they begin to bring sort of integrity unit within stability long term to a program that was designed when there the department of justice. were 16 workers for every is that infallible? no. but there are sanctions short of retiree and now headed to two workers for every retiree. you have to do both. you can't just do the tax plan. you must do entitlement reforms prosecution. that's one idea. or you will never bring the debt under control and you will have another thing is that a an american debt crisis.
that is an unavoidable outcome. prosecutors who brought the ted stevens case, which is just one >> i want to give the ceos a of several examples of where chance to ask you a question. two more topics -- >> i tried to filibuster but the clock is still going. they way overreached, there are >> you've answered lots of questions very directly. sanctions such as they should all the republican candidates lose their jobs. have been critical of the federal reserve. we saw that again in the debate last week. very, very critical of the policies of the federal reserve that is quite a blot on your and in particular of janet resume if you are kicked out of yellen. can i ask you outright if you're president in 2018 you'll get a your job by superiors or others chance to renominate janet within the department of yellen, would you? >> i would not. justice. all i'm saying is there are a we've become fed obsessed. everything on the news today, range of remedies that congress what's the fed going to do? >> "the wall street journal" considers every time it enacts a won't have anything to say. law, and they don't always have >> hopefully you'll have a to be a private, civil action debate about fiscal policy. for damages. the fed is no substitute for tax that action will be abused, and policies, regulatory policies, fiscal economic policies that create an environment that's it will be used every time conducive to economic growth. there's an acquittal whether the in fact, the fed oftentimes by trying to compensate for bad prosecutor proceeded in good faith or whether he didn't. fiscal policy ends up making >> okay. >> well, what you see is actual promotions of prosecutors, not policies that alter the economy in very negative ways. >> do you have somebody in mind? sanctions. >> maybe someone in this room -- no, i don't. remember what we're talking about here is constitutional
>> it's definitely not janet violations. yellen. >> the notion of a fed that's we're not talking about making an error. we're talking about some prosecutor doing something that overact ive and believes it's is is known to be connetrary to th job to manage the economy has done harm. it did harm during the housing constitutional like failing, crisis era. concealing evidence. the access to easy money now, the poor schmuck cop on the beat who didn't go to law school allowed, as we were talking earlier, for a large number of companies to borrow money at may not even have graduated zero interest and to buy back college is expected to know the shares and use it to goose up constitution, and god knows if the stock market, also used it for mergers and acquisition but that cop does something that is established in the law to be a constitutional violation, he can be sued. savings for individuals now, why should the prosecutor negative. it has, in many ways, negative impact on the lives of everyday who went to law school americans and my problem is i think we've reached -- that's why i'm really a strong believer presumably and presumably knows in some sort of rules based fed policy because at least it the criminal law much better, provides some level of certainty why should that prosecutor get as opposed to this sort of better protection than the cop instinctive we are going to get on the beat? in a room and debate for, you know, a couple hours about what i tonigdon't get it. we should do but it's not based it's only elitism it's because on any sort of metrics that you prosecutors are like judges and can predict and the result is maybe it's good for those who prosecutors sometimes were cover financial news but it's judges and that just like us and just this onslaught of constant we're out to protect ourselves.
speculation about when are there's judicial immunitimmunit if a judge does that kind of interest rates going to go up and the impact and uncertainty thing that is truly patently it injects is counterproductive. we need a fed that is what it's unconstitutional, qualified supposed to be, a central bank immunity. why? with solid monetary policy that because judges write the opinions. allows us to smooth out the ebbs what do you expect? >> okay. and flows of the economic cycles yes, sir? in the blue shirt. but by and large growth in our economy is due to a robust private sector that has the confidence to invest in the future because we have economic >> moses, no affiliation. policies that make us globally my question is about the competitive vis-a-vis the rest institution of plea bargaining. of the world. >> a quick question on trade. both of you said that you don't think it should be done away the president just conclude add with. deal with 11 other pacific but i don't know the statistics countries in the trans-pacific of how many of the people in partnership, a big trade deal, one of the biggest deals that's been signed in this region in a prison are there as a result of a plea bargain, but i know that very long time. it's a pretty large percentage. they published the details of and there are certainly a lot of the deal a couple of weeks ago. i'm sure you haven't read all room for abuse in the process of plea bargaining and having the 5,500 pages yet but i'm sure prosecutors pressure a defendant you'll have a chance. this is going to be a hugely into giving up his right to a important issue. >> i agree. >> every republican president trial. so, since you don't want to away
since herbert hoover has with it, i was wondering, can supported trade opening measures. presidents of both parties either of you make suggestions supported trade opening about how you think the system can be reformed to make it less measures. would you vote for the tpp? prone to abuse? >> i support free trade. i support a tpp. whether this specific one i'll >> jay, you take it since you're support, we have to review. so -- we just got it a week ago thursday or friday. we have a 90-day review period. >> well, you know, i'll start i want it to succeed. i hope there's not something in there that i can't be supportive of, not that i expect it to be with the supposition that perfect because i think this everybody should be able to trade deal is important. waive a constitutional right. i believe it's important for a number of reasons. number one, because 40% to 45% we allow people to waive their of global commerce is occurring in this part of the world and right to a jury trial, and america cannot be locked out that's just a fundamental right from it. i think the impact of its of choice within our system. failure could be catastrophic. so, i think the person should in fact, it plays perfectly into the hands of the chinese have a right to strike a deal narrative in the asia-pacific region which is the united states is a power in decline and that's advantageous to him or her. retreat and they're going to set now, there's some things that the rules of the road which can be done, and one of those is to try to provide public would completely unsettle defenders offices with adequate everything that this world has arrived on since the end of the resources so that they don't second world war that has have too many clients to pay created growth and prosperity. we are allowing the chinese, if individual attention to each one.
this fails, to set the rules of prosecutors complain of the same the road for the fastest and thing. they say we simply can't give most important region of the world in the 21st century. people the punishment they so i think it's critical we have deserve because we don't have access to these emerging markets. we are a low tariff country at the prosecutorial resources and we have to bargain way down the end of no one benefits more than we do beyond what we think is that tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade. the aeblt to export services, necessary for public -- public manufactured goods and protection. now, the question is, does plea agriculture to develop economies like japan as an example could be a net incredible positive to bargaining induce someone -- is the american business climate. it has to be structured in a way there some sort of unfair that is right. it has to be fair, but that's why i need to review the deal, pressure on somebody to plea but in general i do believe we need not just a transpacific bargain? and here i can only say that, partnership, but one that allows america to continue to be an yes, there is pressure. but more often than not, that influence. pressure is exerted by the fact that the state's evidence against an individual is very, she came out against it. very strong. she's obviously catering to and we see the same thing in labor constituents in her own party and other voices that have contract negotiations that one
forced her far to the left on side may be pressured in a civil other issues. i supported fast track authority contract by a fact that another because i believe it's important side may be holding all the to conclude this negotiation. like anything else, it is an cards. and we see this, you know, in a extensive deal that is complex, and i want to understand all of the details before i can become criminal trial, too. a champion of this particular deal, but i do believe we need a maybe somebody doesn't want to take the stand, but the state free trade deal with asia pacific nations and pacific rim nations, including many here in puts on a strong case. the western hemisphere that are a part of it. and then the criminal defendant i think it's important for this country, both from a says, wow, i better get on the geopolitical perspective and an economic one. >> it sounds to me like you are stand and respond to what the state has put on. inclined to support it. now, is that -- is that pressure >> i would support tshg but it has to be a good deal. >> any questions? to take the stand? yes. anybody? there is a microphone, which john is going to circulate. is it a violation of the fifth amendment? i don't think so. because i think it's a right you have a few minutes with the that someone has a right to take man who may be the next president of the united states. the stand or not. >> it's so much easier to answer and the fact that -- the fact when they're not 90 seconds. that the state has assembled a >> i think i see tim. >> i apologize, first of all. strong case may put pressure on you have had one brit interviewing you, and now you you to plea bargain, but that's have another brit asking a question. we're taking over. tim montgomery from "the times not what's present in a great,
of london." president obama has said that he great many cases and it's not an illegitimate pressure. what i do think your question would like britain to stay part of the european union, and i points toward is if we can wonder whether you have a view possibly provide more resources yourself. it's a big issue for others. so that a public defender has not so many cases to deal with. that might help. there are other judges and other countries deciding. some of us would perhaps like an >> okay. i want to move on. >> i think this is important. american president to be more >> okay. open to the possibility that an >> two things need to be done to independent britain freed from plea bargain. being part of the wrurp even sometimes prosecutors insist a super state might actually be a better ally for your country. >> well, and part of being a plea bargain before they provide strong ally, particularly of exculpatory evidence. i would not allow a plea bargain britain -- of the u.k., is for until the prosecutor comes up with all the evidence and the us to respect its sovereignty and its right to make its own brady material so the defendant decision bz what what's in the will not be bamboozled when, in right proper interest. fact, the prosecutor has it's a vibrant, democratic country that has leaders who exculpatory evidence. and the second thing is make these decisions and are oftentimes defendants get held electable and accountsable charged with something that may by their electorate, and so i not be a crime. don't think it's proper for an and they have no way of testing american president or american
it because district judges -- in presidential candidate to tell the u.k. what is right for them the federal system -- will not dismiss indictments for any more than the u.k. would tell us they want us to sign insufficiency. now my law clerk james burnham nafta or some other agreement. has written a piece in the green irrespective of what decision bag which i recommend to the u.k. makes, they have a right to make, it and we'll everybody here suggesting that respect whatever decision their in federal court and presumably elected leaders make, and state court as well that district judges take close look they'll continue to be along certainly our best friend in the world and one of our strongest at indictments and force efficiency and that be alliances either way. appealable so a defendant can ultimately that's up to the know whether or not he's facing leaders of the country to make a crime. it their decision about what's so i think i would make those right for the future, and either way it's not going to change the two changes. nature of our relationship. and at that point the defendant >> one or two more questions. can know, in fact, what he's being charged with is, in fact, a crime and, second of all, that we have companies that represent he has all the exculpatory many, many millions of bees here, so i'm sure there are evidence. >> okay. i think i see paul larkin in the back. >> paul larkin heritage concerns. >> since there's an englishman, foundation. >> wait for the microphone, might as well get an aussie into paul. >> paul larkin from the heritage the mix. >> another great friend. >> looks like the outcome with foundation. i want to ask judge wilkinson a the russians coming in looks question, because i think a lot like the balkanization of syria. of the arguments you're making go to blue collar crimes, where there's clearly a question that >> let me be frank.
i don't want to make headlines the defendant may or may not be with this, but what the heck. the one who committed it, but there's no question a crime i think the border of syria and occurred. in the white collar area there iraq has been largely erased. is probably no doubt that whether that's a permanent everybody agrees what happened, status, i don't know. perhaps we hope not, but if we but it may not be a crime. look, it's already balkanized. the rules that you're talking about may work very differently you have an enclave and areas in the two systems. near damascus. because if you're talking about you have a massive sunni the reasonable doubt standard, population that straddles that border. helping the defendant, it you have kurds up north both in doesn't help him if the question syria and in iraq. is whether what everybody admits you have a sheal majority around happened is a crime. areas like baghdad and in the no judge decides whether this is central part of the nation. a crime by beyond a reasonable you have christian communities that have been driven from doubt. they decide whether this is or different regions, but still represent a substantial portion is not a crime based on a more of the population. likely than not standard. that hopefully can return to the what seems more persuasive to them. when you have crimes defined by ancestoral homelands. you have artificial lines that regulations issued by were driven that were drawn administrative agencies, you without any thought process to all of this. now, ideally we would want in an hardly have judgments that reflect deep-seated popular ideal world the nation state elements there would remain in norms and communal judgments of place, but it's increasingly dessert and retribution, that's difficult to envision how that's going to happen any time in the near future, and some of that what you wrote in your article. anytime you're talking about the was touched upon by the comments white collar area i think you i've given here today, and that is the need to work more closely have to look at this problem
with our sunni allies in the very differently and i don't region because i think they must think your arguments always work in that area. be the ones to defeat isis, but >> i think you raise a very that will drive in some respects interesting point. i really do. a potential wedge with some of these shia groups that largely they are -- they're different -- sponsor a directive from tehran. they're different species to be sure. and one of the main -- one of the main differences, of course, some of these elements are already existed on the ground, that's why -- that's what i is that the -- what you referred alluded to when i said i don't to as blue collar crime, the think you're going to see syria vast majority of defendants are turn into canada any time in the indigent and they're going to be represented by appointed counsel near future. we would love to see that stability come because it would or by public defender be good for the people of that organizations. region, but our national when you get to a white collar security interest is in insuring that in the process of all that criminal situation, you have a instability that i have just outlined there is not created different scheme of vacuums. safe operating spaces for radical jihadist groups with representation, which is that you're dealing in the main very external desires and external often with retained counsel. ambitions to organize and that's whom the criminal defendant has what's happening. this whole instability that i have just described and you chosen.
alluded to has created vacuums in spaces that have been filled now, the problem with the blue and where they've been able to create these safe haven from which they operate, and in the absence of safe havens, these collar crime was that a public terrorist groups cannot conduct defender may have too many the sort of external attacks we cases. the problem with the white now see. al qaeda needed safe havens in collar crime area is just afghanistan to conduct 9/11, and isis needs the safe havens it's because the lawyers have been had in iraq and libya to conduct retained and have chosen, that the attacks we see them conducting, and it's in the national security interest of doesn't necessarily eliminate the united states and the west the resource disparity and the to prevent those safe haven from taking root. beyond that, obviously one of the best ways to prevent them, difficulty often it seems to me is to have nation states. in the white collar area is that the agency, for example -- and this relates to civil infractions as well as to criminal prosecutions. but the agency because it's >> i'm nick, and i'm not from working on the public trust or overseas. i'm from wisconsin. the public risk, may have the snoo what part of australia is resources to simply outlast you, and you're paying -- you're that in? paying for your counsel in that
>> hard to say. case, and the state can drag the i would say over the past investigation out. it can drag it on. it can drag it on. several iterations of state of it can drag it on and bleed you. the unions we've had -- i think and that's, it seems to me, a over years we've also seen the problem both civilly and criminally that you have public limits of political capital, and the difficulty to accomplish things in washington. agencies with large amounts of if you were elected president, appropriations and resources and what would be the two or three things you would want to private defendants with limited ones. accomplish for sure, the highest so, i think it's -- it's really priority things. >> i think that's an excellent question. that's one of the things i point a different paradigm, and i to quite often. think it's something that really presidents take office with a limited amount of political capital, and there's no interest on that capital. needs to be addressed, because in essence, you either spend it or lose it. you have to prioritize quickly there is a good amount of agency what that should be. in fact, you should know that as you run for president. abuse. i've seen so many cases where the president, the current president, spent his political they kept people on the string capital on dodd frank and obama care and the stimulus and then a for years and years and years. slew of other things. and i'm glad you raised that in my mind there are two major threats that we face to the question, sir, because it's -- country. one is the national security issue. i think rebuilding -- giving our it does indicate that not all these situations are the same.
nation a clear foreign policy >> yes, sir. and leaves our allies trusting in us and our adversaries respectful of us combined with no, no, down here. first row. rebuilding our national security are essential, and i understand you'll hear later from the secretary of defense. will he share with you i hope how catastrophic this defense >> stuart gerson. sequester is to the long-term viability and strength of our i'd like you to comment on the national security apparatus in this country. it is the most important thing question of overcriminalization. the federal government does, and both at the blue collar level where oftentimes plea bargaining the other -- is fueled by multiple charges, very lengthy indictments that oftentimes have mandatory >> it is changing faster than minimums or would subject a ever, and it is an economy that is global and transfer requires us to compete at a global level, convicted defendant to and that's why the second substantial sentences under the priority would be an agenda that guidelines, and on the white allows us to tackle tax reform collar side, paul mentioned the and at some form makes us more myriad of regulations that have competitive. the regulatory reform that makes it more competitive, and the criminal overtones. but more and more in the utilization that makes it in a environmental crimes area, in responsible way. efforts like entitlement reform to balance our budgets and the the health care area, we're repeal of the obama care and the seeing congress pass laws or
health care law and the replacement of it with a free attempts made by prosecutors to market alternative. these have to be the two priorities of the next charge crimes where mens rea is president. rebuild our national security either not required or is and rebuild our international economic competitiveness. i would add a third one, but i'm virtually absent. probably out of capital, and can either or both of you comment on that? that is we must modernize higher education in the united states. it has to be faster and easier >> you wrote an article on the and cheaper to access. subject of overcriminalization. >> for cato. that includes a renewed focus on career training. >> you did. some of the best jobs in the i edited it. 21st century require more than >> i mean, the fact -- the traditional high school, but less than four years of college. article's called "you, too, may it involves alternatives to be a federal criminal." things like more competency based learning that allows and, yes, i'm talking to you. people to get credit for what i mean, the reality is that it's they've learned on their own through life experience and work very easy to criminalize and to experience and package the rest through a variety of sources. that's why i have proposed write very broad statutes and alternative accrediting model that is will open up the space even easier to then delegate for that. responsibility for implementing alternatives to the traditional student loan, including the to federal agencies so that a student investment plan that allows graduate students and others to go to investment lot of stuff that happens that groups to pay for their studies people take for granted winds up instead of taking out a loan and more information like right to being -- winds up being criminal know before you go. that says that before you take or arguably criminal. out a student loan students will and you add to that the fact be required to tell you how much
that very often the -- if for somebody makes when they graduate from that school with that degree. that's a lot of political whatever reason they want to go after somebody, they can stretch capital, but these are the essential issues before our the terms of the law, or they country that i hope will confront in the next presidency. can refuse, you know, as they >> i think you know the senator did in various cases in arthur has a busy schedule, so please help me thank him for taking the anders andersen, so on, argue whether there was an intent requirement. well, without -- if you stretch time. [ applause ] >> the lexington institute these things far enough, that's recently hosted a forum featuring speakers discussing really nobody you can't -- you ways to improve acquisition can't get and nobody you can't management at the defense put behind the eight ball and department. this is about two hours 40 then force to the grim choice of minutes. going to trial and risking huge penalties or taking a settlement. and lest you worry that, oh, the >> my name is matt kerry. i'm ceo of the lexington institute. rich do much better than the we appreciate everybody taking poor because the poor get public time out of their schedules defenders and the rich get their today. we've got a terrific roster of own lawyers, they've taken care of that problem now. speakers, and we appreciate them because now the federal being sootology help us out. government is going in and
seizing pretrial the money you this is part of our series of were going to use to hire a forums on capitol hill on defense acquisition reform. lawyer, so they not only want it's become a very important and you fighting a crime where the focused and intense effort in recent months thanks to the ndaa risks are huge to you, where the and some of the other terms are ill defined, where developments out there. they refuse to an instruction or we're glad to have such a great group of speakers and such a great odd wrens. if you don't mind, turn your they take the position that you cell phones on to silence for the remainder of the forum, and don't get an instruction, but they want to do the lawyer, they we have a big group today. want to do the lawyer who is willing to do it for nothing. we want everybody to be able to hear the speaker. please keep your side this is the kind of abuse i conversations to a minimum. think -- and this is the kind of that would be most helpful. stuff that worries me. we are going to do a series of i'm a little surprised at my back to back ten minute speeches from our subject matter experts. friend jay wilkinson is so come placea complacent about it. me, it gives me the willies. >> you want to comment on that? i think you'll like the forum, if you haven't been to one of >> it's a -- the word ours before. we're going to go boom, boom, overcriminalization is one of those, it's thrown around. boom, with a lot of great it's a very broad kind of information. our first speaker is phil jasper, executive vice president and chief operating system for phenomenon. rockwell collins. i think part -- some part of it
he is also an executive officer has been brought about by the of the company. he has multi-decade experience fact that we have different species of crime such as in bomber haept helicopter and cybercrime, and we have the internet which is made possible other important aviation programs, and we are glad to all kinds of different crimes have you here, and look forward and made more serious different to your remarks. >> thanks for the introduction. although the multi-decade part crimes that probably didn't i'm not sure makes me feel a exist or didn't exist as a little bit old. federal question beforehand. again, thanks also for privilege so, i think when you're looking of being a part of this event. at the proliferation in criminal i'm here because i believe defense acquisition reform is laws, you have to -- you can't ultimately all about working together to help the war fighter and to keep our country safe. divorce it from some of the underlying changes in society while we may have differing viewpoints on how to improve the that are taking place. system, i think we can all agree that when people's lives are on the line, they should have criminal organizations, for example, are becoming more access to cutting edge, affordable, effective sophisticated and many of their technology. for decades we've been working operations are across state together to improve defense acquisition. now, some of you may say that lines. and they do and so that's an we've seen little success, but i would like to think that weave invitation for the federal
been moving in the right government to criminalize those things if they -- if they cross direction. state lines. however, i am concerned that so, part of it is a response to we're starting to move backward. electronic crimes. to explain why i would like to part of it is a response to share a case study about our company. interstate crimes. that's part of it. if you work with my company a few decades ago, you quickly another part of it is that legislators do like to take credit for enacting crimes. learned that rockwell collins was split into two completely separate different businesses. largely due to the imposition of and that seems to me to be a government unique terms and conditions, audits, cost lively political question. accounting, and other costly they feel they would answer that tracking and reporting this is horrible behavior, we're requirements. one business served the government customers, and the responding to the wishes of our other business served the constituents. people don't feel safe. commercial customers. this separation included well, that may or may not be duplicating all functions and true. and the point is i think that establishing separate what you raise is a -- is a good production, research and development, engineering, and question. but i think it's more of a question for legislative hearing administrative functions. the reality was the cost of compliance with government unique terms was such a burden and the political system to work itself out. that it couldn't be supported in the commercial marketplace. the result was that our company as to whether prosecutors stack
wasn't efficient, our military crimes and stack charges, yes, products were unique and to some extent they do. expensive, and our dod customers but can -- can we -- can we were not getting the latest, most innovative commercial really fault a prosecutor from technology they needed to be enforcing laws that are on the books. and a lot of times they bring successful. in the 1990s that all changed multiple charges because they due to the reform act and other don't know which ones the jury initiatives. through these reforms, the is going to -- a judge is going federal government reached out to the commercial industry and to dismiss. was able to reduce the barriers and they don't know which ones a jury's going to acquit on. to enable attorney general to and so it's a matter of hedging provide their invaltive and cutting edge products and bets. all i'm trying to suggest to you technologies. from our perspective, the reforms enabled rockwell collins is, you're on to something, but to leverage our commercial innovations and eliminate i think there's a reason for the overhead redundancies and that, phenomenon. and i think that the thought may in turn, reduced costs. lie more with the impulse to we were allowed to bring forward the innovative technology in criminalize for political credit which our commercial businesses invested heavily. at the political level, but i'm we were also able to streamline our operation soz that our not sure that you can go after
corporate and share owner goals prosecutors, because i'm not sure they can predict the fate could be achieved whale satisfying our dod's customers' of all these different -- of the different crimes they charge. needs for affordable and >> i am afraid we have run out of time, but would you please effective technology. the advantages have been thank both of our speakers for an entertaining discussion. profound for our government customers. for example, using commercially available technology our precision light weight gps everybody here is invited to a receiver, or plugger, saved the reception that we'll be having in the winter garden, and we can dod over $300 million. continue the discussion there. thank you. over the past decade rockwell collins has invested $200 million to build and support 17 gps product lines. these receivers are all of a type available in the commercial c-span presents landmark cases, the book, a guide to our marketplace and, yet, still meet the government security and landmark cases series which explores 12 historic supreme unique military environmental requirements. the use of commercial-based court decisions including technologies on the kc-135 marbury versus madison, brown global air traffic management upgrade program enabled the air versus the board of education, force to leverage hundreds of millions of dollars of company miranda versus arizona and roe funded commercial investment and versus wade. resulted in completing the upgrade in less than half the "landmark cases" features
introductions and backgrounds time of previous programs. we save the dod more than $160 and highlights of each case written by tony morrow and million in development costs for published by c-span in cooperation with cq press an the common avionics architecture imprint of sage publications incorporated. it's available for $8.95 plus shipping. system. the display on the kc-46 tanker get your copy today at cspan.org/landmarkcases. are state-of-the-art because they were first developed commercially for the boeing 787 and then modified for military c-span has your coverage of the road to the white house use. secretary carter has made it clear that the gap between the 2016. where you'll find the candidates, the speeches, the defense and commercial debates, and most importantly, marketplace must be bridged. your questions. as can you see from the examples i just mentioned, we understand this year we're taking our road to the white house coverage into both worlds and are in a great classrooms across the country with our student cam contest. position to provide more giving students the opportunity innovative commercial technology to the war fighter. to discuss what important issues they want to hear the most from the candidates. this is why we've been a follow c-span's student cam long-time advocate of contest and road to the white contracting. we have seen and have house coverage 2016 on tv, on experienced the mutual benefits. the radio, and online at our military customers save on cspan.org.
expenses for development they have access to the latest on wednesday "washington commercially developed technologies in a more timely journal" looking at the university of central florida's research center and their work to develop treatments for manner. anxiety disorders and ptsd. this is about 45 minutes. our company can leverage our invasions and eliminate >> joining us from the c-span redundancies. the problem for companies like bus to talk about the treatment of anxiety and posttramatic rockwell collins are that -- centers disorders especially among the nation's military and they are often in direct conflict with providing commercial technology to the veteran population is dr. debra government. despite the rhetoric of breaking bidel and she's the director of down barriers to commercial the university's posttramatic companies, it feels like the stress disorder clinic. acquisition system is resisting, thank you very much for being with us this morning. allowing companies such as ours tell us about the university of central florida's clinic and why to provide modified commercial technology to the department of you have this specifically at the university of central florida. defense. for example, a decade ago we >> well, good morning. i'm happy to be here today. received a commercial item we have a posttramatic stress determination for our commercial displays with slight mott disorder clinic at the university of central florida fictions to be used on a because it's a very important military helicopter program. outreach to veterans. i have been working in the field
that is precisely what far part of anxiety disorders for 12 envisioned. probably 30-plus years and when to facilitate dod's access to i moved here to the university of central florida, we wanted to innovative commercial technology open a clinic that would treat that could be slightly modified both anxiety disorders and to enable the war fighter to use it. posttramatic stress disorder. in the case of our displays, i'm very, very privileged that we work with the department of defense, actually the army's that meant doing things like -- or adding filters to enable the military operational research program, and they have allowed use of the military display with us with a very generous grant night visions. in the acquisition world, these funding to stand up this clinic are referred to as commercial items of a type. they're not exactly the same as and conduct research on effective treatments for the commercial product, but posttramatic stress disorder in combat veterans. >> you received a $5.3 million they're pretty close. dod grant and it's for what is now, even though -- more than the only three-week treatment ten years as a commercial item. program in the nation. it's been dubbed as last year the government comprehensive. explain what it is and why it's the only one in this nation. challenged that determination. it takes nine months to successfully resolve that >> i'm happy to. it is a three-week program that challenge, to reaffirm that they combines something called are indeed commercial items. exposure therapy. exposure therapy is the most scientifically researched
treatment for trauma and just earlier this month the government has challenged the posttramatic stress disorder. commercial position of those it's basically asking people to displays. here we go again. put themselves back in the this is not a good formula for situation that created the stress. the long-term success for either and the very simple example is if i asked you how do you get party, and it's certainly not a over your fear of a dog, you would probably say, well wrx, w formula to entice commercial companies to want to do more business with the d.o.d. i have to be around a dog. we have to do the same thing with posttramatic stress disorder. what we know is we can't often ultimately it's not goods for re-create the horrific events of our war fighters because it delays the possibility to war, so we've added virtual deliver what they need in a reality where we can have people timely manner. while i'm encouraged by the experience the sights, the direction of secretary carter sounds, and the smells of war in and the legislative improvements order to make the exposure in the ndaa, there are therapy more effective. now, exposure therapy works very roadblocks that still exist and well for the fear aspect of are preventing greater success in providing commercial posttramatic stress disorder, technology. but what we know about our now is the time to take steps to veterans is that they also remove those roadblocks. experience other emotions like ic-4 steps that should be taken anger, sometimes depression, and immediately. first, regulations and sometimes social isolation and interpretations around what something called moral injury. products and services are so, to the exposure therapy commercial items are getting more restrictive, not less, and
which a lot of people do we've that needs to change added a group treatment component know that specifically immediately. the commercial item procurement addresses these additional reforms in the recently passed issues. the reason for the three-week national defense authorization program is that, first of all, act are a good start. thatable clearly recognizes the esposure therapy works better if value of commercial other type you do the sessions in a very close fashion. products, and the fact that but the second thing is we want to have a treatment that will work not only for veterans but prior commercial items are determination should be allowed to be carried forward. will work for active duty personnel as well who can't be out of active duty for 12 to 18 to insure kibt alignment and weeks. so, we developed this three-week leadership expectations, the program where people get two d.o.d. and the defense treatment sessions a day, acquisition university must exposure therapy in the morning, train contracting officers on group therapy in the afternoon. what commercial items are, how we're privileged that we can commercial business cases are offer free accommodations to established, and how to acquire people who qualify for our research program. all they have to do is get and value commercial items. themselves to orlando and with well meaning individuals are the generous funding that we've focused on comparing sales of received we can take care of the rest, including free treatment. the exact same item in the >> doctor, what do you see when commercial market, but by you're exposing these veterans definition there often aren't sales of the same item because to what they saw in combat, the sights and the sounds?
it's been slightly modified for what's the reaction that you see? what's your success rate? military use. rather, the proper comparison is with the price of similar items >> well, initially people will in the marketplace. have an anxious or a fear understanding and appreciating reaction. a lot of people think they're going to lose control. that distinction which the law people don't lose control. they do become incredibly recognizes and provides for is important and simply a matter of anxious, but we don't leave people alone. effective training. we stay with them during the it is not enough to rely on treatment session until their centers of excellence. anxiety comes back down. we must train the acquisition we do this over a number of days, and what we find is that work force. third, we need greater dialogue each day their initial anxiety between industry and the response becomes less and less. and it doesn't take as long for government around intellectual property protection. them to say, okay, i'm not in many cases the current approach creates big barriers feeling anxiety anymore. i want to make it clear that we're not trying to erase when we invest, take all the risk, and then have to give our people's memories or do anything like that. ip away to our competitors. the goal of treatment is for this is an area the defense business board has identified as people to once again be able to take back their life. if i can give you an example, needing improvement and i hope people tell us they can't drive on interstate highways here. they say they can't drive on i-4 because they're looking on the
side of the road for ieds and finally, the broader discussion needs to shift towards the value they'll say, well, i know that there's no ieds in orlando, but if i see some trash on the side of commercial item procurements of the road, i get anxious, i and away from the profit level get scared, i may pull off the contractors make. road. i may drive into a ditch because look, the industry wants to insure the taxpayer is getting i'm so upset and anxious about what looks like it might be an ied. so, our goal is to get people to value for their dollar as much as the government does. have control over their lives, at the same time commercial not to forget what happened to businesses invest huge sums of money over long periods of time them, which would be impossible considering some of the things that happen in war, but to get in the name of technological them to feel comfortable again. innovation. they, along with their shareholders, expect to receive the combination of our individual treatment with the a reasonable return on that virtual reality and adding in the group component, although investment. focussing on profit level the study is not quite finished, instead of value and price ignores the substantial right now more than 64% of investments that have been made as well as the other tangible people no longer have benefits of commercial posttramatic stress disorder at the end of this three-week procurement. such as the cost and risk of period. and more importantly, when we follow them up at six months later, the relapse rate is less obscelecence, which the -- than 10% so we're very, very focussing on profit level also ignores the fact that the vast
excited about the results we've got so far. majority of commercial items are i'm a scientist and so i have to fixed price arrangements. say, we still have a little more work to do, but we are really gg commercial companies are generally want in the cost plus very effective results. business where taxpayers bare >> we are talking with dr. the risks of overruns. under fixed price contracts, the deborah, the university of commercial company bares the central florida's post-traumatic risk wrfsh it is in their bis best interest to control cost, become more efficient, and unit. this is part of day three of the sunshine state tour, campaign deliver on time. 2016 bus is there. those are the four areas that i believe we should work on in the itis part of four university coming we're. now, while there are areas that stops we are making talking to i just highlighted where we need continued improvement, we have different experpts at these made great progress since the universities. passage of the fasa in 1994, but today, we are talking about the issue of post-traumatic stress by continuing to eliminate the disorder and anxiety. barriers that stand in our way, we can better access commercial we divided the line this is way. technologies and provide our war eastern part of the country -- fighters the capability they need to keep our nation safe. active military and veterans, want to hear from you as well. thank you. 202-748-8002. let me tell you about the university of central florida. [ applause ] >> thank you very much, phil. it's located in orlando, 13
our next speaker is former additional campuses, founded in senator jim talent from missouri. he is a senior fellow at the 1963. they have an enrollment of american enterprise institute 60,000 undergrad and grad now. while he was in the senate, he was a member of the senate armed services committee and a students. under grat wait fees, in state, chairman of the sea power 6,000, out of state, close to $21,000. subcommittee. they have endowment of $155 welcome, sir. thank you very much for coming. million. let's go back to what you are doing there and why you are doing it. why is it that the university of >> thank you, mac. i appreciate the opportunity to central florida is doing this work, not the veteran's affair's be here. thanks to everybody here who department? >> well, i think the veteran's works in this field, which i assume is just about everybody affairs department is doing some here. work they can do. you know, these are difficult the advantage of being at a place like the university of central florida is that we are times for the united states, and not constrained by the i think there are more difficult times coming up, but one of our regulations that the veterans great strengths is america's affairs department might have. so, for example, we can offer innovative and productive treatment in this fashion where, capability which has expressed you know, in some cases, the number of people seeking services at the veteran's itself through partnerships between the federal government administration might not allow a
and the base, and you're the person to be seen every day for people that make that partnership go, and i appreciate three days in a row. that, and the hands to talk we have some flexibility in what about acquisition and learn about acquisition from others we do. here today. we don't see ourselves doing this is one of the subjects something instead of the where the challenge is to say veteran's administration, we something without trying to say sewer ourselves offering another everything in ten minutes. i'm going to kind of take an alternative. overview about where i see the people that have not been problem is and why i believe the treated successfully at the latest steps that the congress is taking that many of you all veteran's administration. for example, in our three week are taking are good steps and program, 32% of our participants are it is beginning of the path out, so when you focus on the are actually active duty proud -- i'm going to focus on personnel. they are not yet veterans, but the external source of the they are veterans of the problem and then the internal conflict of iraq and one. afghanistan. we are able to offer active duty most people don't focus on the personnel that service as well. external. the external problem and the we are doing things a little bit reason for many of our differently. we like to think we are doing acquisition issues is 20 years them in a way that may be of inadequate and unstable helpful for people who failed out of more traditional funding for procurement modernization. outpatient programs. it's gotten a lot worse under >> how quickly can you see the the sec quester, but it goes back to the 1990s. people seeking help at the i remember it vividly because i university? >> well, we can see everyone who
was a kid congressman at the calls us. time and those were the days when appropriately we were we do an initial screening by cutting the size of the force. first with the bush base force the telephone because our and then the bottom up review. research funding, which is it right now. the treatment is not an cut it about 40%. you can argue whether that was too much in some areas, but that experimental treatment. was also the time when we took they are treatments that have the procurement holiday, and we been used, it's the combination cut procurement and and the way we are doing it that is part of a research program. we can have a first appointment modernization. i say we -- the first speech i with someone within a month. gave on the house floor was about this. what we do is people come here we cut the procurement and as a cohort. modernization budget by much that's a fancy word for group, more and cut procurement by much i'm sorry. we have six or seven people who come at the beginning of the more. month. they move through the treatment program across the three weeks. ship building went down by we take a week to get everybody two-thirds. fighters for the air force by settled at home, write all our 80%. i say this -- i talk to lay notes and the next group comes people on this subject. the next month. i say what would happen if ups depending on when they come, just decided to stop buying they might be able to start trucks for a few years? treatment within two weeks to a well, you would end up with a month when they call. if they are local and want the huge capital bow wave and the longer it took you to deal with outpatient program, they can it, the further you push it out have their first appointment within a week. in the future. the bigger it would be when you >> talk about what is
finally did deal with it, and post-traumatic stress disorder and is it mostly people or does that's basically what weave been it have to be attributed to dealing with. it was exacerbated by the original content which you were all aware, so we were us using an age willing inventory that we combat? weren't replacing at much higher >> we talk about two kinds of rates than we ever expected to. post-traumatic stress disorder. we talk combat related ptsd and that hadz caused, i believe, some of the issues with the acquisition process. it's weakened the defense civilian related ptsd. industrial base. there were a lot of quite frankly, traumas are all consolidations. you all remember that wrush around us. fewer competitors, less competition, harder to hold down everyone knows someone who has prices. it's had an impact on the human been part of a traumatic event. capital in the defense industrial base. we can talk about crime victims there was one year joe lieberman and i put money in the budget and things first responders see in daily life. we can talk about natural just to allow the shipyards to disasters and people who are sustain and if we got around to victims of sexual assault or abuse. designing the next stub marine many, many different kinds of because we didn't want those people to go away. it's very hard to reconstitute. things, motor vehicle accidents i think it's been contributed to are a traumatic event. requirementses because if you we talk about 90% of people in are one of the services and you are not going to be able to design sxbld as many platforms the united states will, at some as you like to, you will stri to point in their life, experience stuff as much into the platform a traumatic event. that is you can built, and i for most of us, we have a period
think it's contributed to an of resilience or recovery. exacerbated rivalry over the we might have symptoms for a few days, then after a period of years. time, we are feeling better. there's a subset of people who it's one of the reasons why the develop post-traumatic stress last independent panel strongly disorder. they may have symptoms of recommended returning to the gates budget base line that hyperindividual lens, being on guard, not being able to relax at anytime. governor baits proposed since so, people talk about, well, i 2011, and i think it's going to take more than that going have to keep my eyes out for danger all the time. veterans will say, i can't sit forward. with my back to a door because i can't see who might be coming through the door. we talk about problems with nightmares. we talk about problems with difficulty sleeping, just being we studied this extensively. able to get to sleep and able to wake up a gain. people with post-traumatic reported on it. those who had dealt with this in the past and worked with it stress disorder whether combat concluded that the major problem or civilian, they talk about a sense of a shortened future. was -- we said the fundamental what they mean is that they feel this event has so changed their reason for the continued under performance is fragmentation of life in some way that their life
is going to be shortened. they are not going to live as authority and accountability for long as other people. performance and went to make a number of recommend dayings. it's kind of a horrible feeling i still believe that's true. they have. you need a tight chain of there's also something called flashbacks where people will command where people know they have authority commensurate with suddenly feel as if the event is the responsibility, and that allows you to hold them happening again. accountable for performance, and so, we hear people talking about that's why i liked what the ndaa if i smell diesel fuel, i think i'm back on that road in iraq, is doing. looking at the ied explosion. there's a lot of these events. i think it's trying to do so in real but modest ways. i like the redefinition. avoidance of social situations. again, something that is common among most people with post-traumatic stress disorder but we hear a lot in our we have slipped into a situation where it's too much like having veterans, they have isolated two bureaucracies in the themselves from family. department trying to do the same they say i don't want my family thing. to know what i have seen and that's always a mistake. heard. i don't want those pictures in oversight is one thing. their head that i have in my supplanting execution is head. so, unfortunately, there's a another, and i think it makes sense that the serviceses who sense of social isolation and are, after all, constituted for families feel they don't want to talk to me anymore. that purpose should be the one going forward who have the the reality is, they feel they responsibility and, therefore,
can't talk to their family the accountability. to me -- it comes down. anymore. they don't want them to think this would appeal very much to about what they are carrying me. it might still be in the senate. if you think that the chiefs and around in their head. the secretaries aren't doing the post-traumatic stress disorder affects not just an individual, it affects families and it job, the answer is not to create affects communities. a competing bureaucracy which people are not able to go to will try and do at the same time work in many cases, lowering they're doing it. the answer is to work with them, productivity, having them to help them, and if that doesn't rely on other sources of income work, get people who can do the and many, many medical costs associated with this disorder. job. >> take a look at the numbers, clear responsibility. clear authority. veterans with ptsd served in a then clear accountability. given year, iraq/afghanistan i liked the features of the bill wars, 11% to 20%. providing for alternative pathways at the discretion of the secretary. gulf war, 12% and vietnam war, i do think the chiefs tend to be estimated 30% in their lifetime. we are talking with the focused by the nature of their job either on the here and now psychology and medical education on satisfying immediate needs of the combatant commanders or on professor at the university of envision says what the next central florida. we'll go to joseph, our first generation -- what the future ten, 12, 15, 20 years is going call in krofton, maryland. go ahead. to look like for the services, >> caller: good morning, how are you? >> morning. and there is a tendency to get a >> caller: i wanted to touch on
little short to the programs you what your guest said about the want to design and build in an ptsd causing people not to want intermediate time frame. to talk about it. it makes sense to assign i'm wondering, it's not management for those programs to something i have heard people other agencies. not that -- not that he has to talk about but i wonder if the elevated suicide rates and the do it. i like the provision in the bell that emphasizes regrowing the ptsd may have something to do with perhaps a deep sense of services acquisition capabilities. i'm concerned about the graying shame for what's being done over of our acquisition work force. in these countries and the fact i think it needs to be expanded, and we have to consider the that our military is being used like the armed muscle wing of future beefing it up so that we the mob. they are kind of just go around can -- we can recapitalize the and use brute force to do what services when we get an adequate we want to do. top line to do it and real perhaps in the conscience of our purpose in the executive and legislative branch to do, it and soldiers, they are understanding and perceiving the injustice. that has to come. i mean, we're at the point where >> okay, doctor? we have to recapitalize these >> well, post-traumatic stress inventories going forward. i'm deeply concerned. as we said in the second disorder has been around since the beginning of time. independent panel that we're going to very quickly have a homer actually talked about it force that's at high risk of not in some of his works. being able to carry out the at different times, we have called it different things,
national military strategy. i'll just conclude with one soldie soldiers heart, shell shock. after vietnam war is when we other point. first got the name he think we have to avoid as we post-traumatic stress disorder. it is true that sometimes in war go through the process unrealistic expectations that people talk about doing things that they wouldn't do if they are inevitably going to be were a civilian, but i don't disappointing. i used to have this conversation want to say and i can't say that with secretary coburn you'll the time. he is a good friend of mine. people are committing suicide my issue with the department was because of the shame that they primarily defense funding and at times was primarily defense feel when they are over there. we have not heard our military waste, as any of you who know talk about that. tom know that. we have heard them talk about how things are different over he was very effective. a great senator and a good there, but not in the sense that friend, and i conceded, you the caller is talking about. know, the points that he was depression often comes along with post-traumatic stress making. disorder. if you were always >> the department is a part of hyperindividual lent or on guard government, so it is going to or not able to sleep, it makes respond to legal dynamics, which your body feel fatigued and you the last speaker talked about. become depressed when you can't policy dynamics and, yes, some find a way to sleep. political dynamics, and there is a high suicide rate in
this country among veterans and bureaucratic dynamics. that means that it is never we have to do something about going to operate from a it. standpoint of pure economic post-traumatic stress disorder ot the only factor in the rate efficiency the way it will run a private business. they can operate a lot better. of suicide. i think it can and often >> patrick is next in oakland, something operate better than the rest of the government, but california, active military. a plan that assumes it's going hi, patrick. to run like a free market entity >> caller: actually, i'm a and a highly competitive part of vietnam veteran. i have received a few counseling the economy that's very well managed is a plan that is designed to fail, and all we're sessions for ptsd about seven going to get is a lot of years ago. disappointment. i like what you all are talking they divide you between combat about. i like what the senate has done and the house. veterans, active combat and we're going to move step by step those who were in support. forward making it the better one if you are in support, you are not facing active combat. step at a time, and i think that they tend to put you on a different, maybe lower level of will work. service or activity. i appreciate you all working i found the counseling helpful, with the congress on it. we do need to continue promoting but i found survivors guilt is a last speak her was right about big component of what a lot of this, an atmosphere of us feel, that our government did partnership and teamwork whenever possible rather than an the wrong thing. adversarial atmosphere or a i have had 40 plus years to look hostile one. back on it and see what happens
i think we can get this job in modern day warfare. done. i did that in ten minutes. it's not bad giving my it just gets worse. thank you. background. thank you all very much. [ applause ] >> thank you. the first set of studies that we >> our next speaker is dr. did with our treatment program, michaeling hanlan of the we were working with vietnam brookings institute. an institution and senior fellow. veterans back in the mid-1990s michaeling is a long-time friend and we heard some of the same of ours who is a featured concerns from that group of speaker in a number of our veterans at that period of time. events. he is a visiting lecturer at so, i do think post-traumatic princeton and john hopkins stress disorder doesn't usually go away without affective university. thank you so much. >> well, good afternoon, intervention. i encourage people to look everyone. it's an honor to be part of this around and try to get something to help. great lexington institute event and apollo center talent and sometimes support groups help other excellent remarks i've people. sometimes interventions such as heard so far. what we are doing will be i think i'll try to do my remarks in seven minutes, and i helpful. this is a problem, as a country, just really want to try to drive home a couple of central points we have to face. we have to put in the resources that ultimately get to this issue of which kinds of needed to help people get their lives back. technologies within the broader our veterans, our war fighters department of defense portfolio have put themselves on the line
should we be trying to acquire for us to keep us safe and we and fundamentally different ways need to give something back to them. than we have been, and the way >> after your patients complete i'll start is by telling an event that we had in the this three-week program you were brookings institute in the spring. i asked the same question to outlining, what do you hear from undersecretary kemgdz and bill them? do they not suffer or battle lynn. bill lynn had been deputy secretary defense in the obama administration a little sooner. with anxiety or depression? you said they have not seen a now runs the u.s. arm of -- and recurrence of ptsd, but are they the question was how good of a grade would you give to american dealing with anxiety and defense acquisition policy and depression? if so, how do they deal with that? >> i think they are dealing with process today? secretary kendall, who is just putting out better buying power anxiety and some depression. 3.0 at that time and obviously some people say to us, you know, has been a big advocate for i'm having a nightmare once a improvement and, therefore, is month now. hardly complacent about this before, i was having three or four a week. issue, nonetheless said, let's so, i would never, ever say that give ourselves a little credit. whenever we go to war, we have they no longer have any symptoms by far the best stuff in the world. it tends to work pretty well. of post-traumatic stress i would say maybe we deserve a disorder. i would say, if they have b-plus. symptoms, they are not interf e maybe even a little better. then i asked the same question interfering with their lives. as mental health professionals, to bill lynn a little later in the setting in the forum, and th bill said i don't disagree with that's an important consideration for us.
are you able to do those things undersecretary kendall, but i think that i would make that and function in your environment, even if you have grade more specific for major symptoms remaining? platforms, traditional systems. i think people deal with their i think we do buy those pretty well, and, yes, there are some symptoms in different ways. one of the things we talk about overruns and inefficiencies, and is we have people talk about what are their goals and what we have all these bureaucratic issues to contend with, but are their values. never the less, we do pretty a treatment known as behavioral well, but anything touched by moore's law, we tend to do less activation. well, and i'll give that a what would you like to c-minus. we convened then another accomplish? our veterans will tell us, focusing on what i want to do and go ahead and get myself discussion group in october. started doing that makes me feel better. it makes me feel like i have a this one was off the record. goal again, like i have a reason nonetheless, the consensus there was that if we're going to look to keep going and to work with my family and get back to doing those things and what we find is for certain areas which areas of when people are behaviorally defense technology should we be trying to put in new players. activated, going out and doing should we be wondering if the things they enjoy, they feel a whole system of highly regulated sense of happiness, aagain, acquisition is perhaps too hornous. there's a lot of room for reform instead of anxiety and depression. even with traditional platforms, the other thing is this is the but this group emphasized that program where people have to
work actively in the program. information technology systems autonomous systems robotics, so, we teach people skill that unmanned systems, these were the is they can keep using when they areas that were probably most are back in their home promising because they tend to have a high content of cyber environment. so we say to them, well, you know, we taught you how to do technology and software and because they are relatively less "x." if you have another stressful event, you might need to do that expensive in terms of the again. we give people the tools they platforms, the engines, the need to be able to manage the metal, and, in other words, thing that is then they will these are areas where the face when they go home. traditional defense base the >> you have a ph.d. in clinical industrial base is doing a pretty good job and it's hard for new entrants to compete anyway. whereas, in the areas of information technology and psy psychology from the university rebottics and autonomous systems, a little easier. we all know it's hard to of the pittsburgh. actually draw such clear lines. patty, in louisville, kentucky, there's a lot of cyber you are next. >> caller: yes. infrastructure inside the good morning, everyone that's on biggest ships and planes, and the radio or tv. i am a wife of a ptsd veteran. there are some pretty important issues with engines and my husband has been placed in structure and metal inside of the hospital here at louisville drones, so it's not as if you can neatly divide the world into these categories. this is what i would submit to twice. you today that if we're looking for a new entrant, and this is there was no mention of a
just one particular element of the broader acquisition debate we're having this afternoon and virtual reality to possibly so i'm not trying to cover the whole landscape, but if one shock him back into reality. question before the jury this after 50 years after being together with my husband, what moment is which kinds of veterans need, not only medical procedures do we need to fundamentally revamp and look for ways of doing business, it's help and also the -- what you probably true that in general in the areas of smaller robotics and information technology, we are offering the veterans. have the most to benefit from we need good attorneys that are encouraging new entrants. using some of the other kinds of going to work with veterans that authorities, using some of the are being mistreated with the models we learned in the wars funds they are throwing out with, let's say, giato, the there to help these vietnam veterans and all these other joint ied defeat organization that built the enwrap or that veterans. they do not get the funds. contractor for that. some of these models. the funds are funneled through more rapid, less structured, courses like yourself or through less formal acquisition. probably applied best in certain the mayor's office trying to specific technology domains. help the homeless veterans. they don't get these funds. couldn't that be a reason for the stress and the 22% of persons committing suicide every
day? we need legal help. thank you. >> we have a wonderful attorney he went on to silicon valley, and again, we know a lot of very that we work with here in orlando that work with us on good defense firms are not in those kind of issues. silicon valley, and they are doing very well without the help veterans with post-traumatic of silicon valley. stress disorder can face at least not in a direct sense. challenges, sometimes nonetheless, we know that in some of these areas that i have homelessness, sometimes the inability to get the support been discussing today we would like to see new entrants. they deserve. i would encourage people to 1345u8er firms, high-tech firms compliment the existing search their local resources. there probably are veteran's industrial base. groups or attorneys that deal with those types of issues. i think for our grant, you know, the money we have received is to set up a program that actually is testing how virtual reality privacy issues are hurting their can help. ability to sell technology. virtual reality is a new form. what jason found is that, in it's not the treatment. fact, there are a lot of firms in silicon valley who are as it helps make the treatment better. i think you are right, research patriotic as the next guy, and continued advancements need to who would actually like to get
get out. into this business. that's the challenge, to make in contrast with traditional sure all veterans get the right defense platforms, the kinds of treatment and all the treatment information systems that you are that they need. going to sell to the defense >> university of central florida department are probably going to be at a lesser scale, a smaller received a $5.3 million grant from the pentagon army grant for scale in most cases in an what the commercial marketplace is this type of research and offering. it's partly patriotism, and the treatment that they are doing at the clinic. technical challenge of being ted in tampa, florida, good morning. >> caller: hi, there. good morning. able to -- i think these are the nice to talk to you. areas where we have to work harder to reach out. i have two brothers and a sister i think ash carter is doing a that serve active duty, one in pretty good job in this regard. the marine, one in the army and we have to keep at it. it's going to take a while. i'll finish on the happier note one in fact navy. one in army was direct infantry. that as much as all the reform ideas are necessary, i still he saw combat and is tier one come back to secretary kendall's spot that at least for most with the veteran's affairs. traditional platforms, and i think i would agree with this, he's in every time he can get an the current industrial base is doing a pretty good job, and so appointment. you know, the v.a. are only doing so much for the vets. we should begin from a premise the v.a. is really the only that the system is sort of three-fourths strong, one-quarter broken instead of throwing the baby out with the stable program the vets have to bath water. i'm not suggesting people here are trying to do the latter, but go through that they don't have to go through paperwork and sometimes the conversations, the process to get admitted into
tones, of broader national programs. there's process to it. dialogues trend in a direction what can families, individuals, that suggests that the system is brothers, like myself, do to fundamentally broken. there are a lot of problems, a help our family members overcome lot of issues. we need three hours today. this without all the process and i'll defer to others for the other issues, but overall we're the ridiculousness he's facing doing pretty well. let's try to get those new even as a tier one, combat intranlts in especially in the areas of i.t. and robotics. wounded, 80% retired, 100% social security. thank you. what can we do? thank you for much and god bless [ applause ] >> our next speaker is john florida. >> thank you very much for your etherton, president and owner of question. i think there are several things eth errton and associates. that people can do. john was an 18 year staffer in i think, first of all, to the u.s. senate, including 14 understand what post-traumatic years as a professional staff stress disorder is, is very other the senate armed services important for family members. committee. he is also former vice president for legislative affairs at the i think people are just doing this deliberately or, as i said aerospace industries association and a long-time acquisition before, deliberately not talking reform activist and advocate. to people just to be mean is not great to see you, john. correct. so, i think understanding what this disorder is and what the thank you for coming. symptoms are can really be helpful for family members. i think the other thing family
>> great. members can do is look for >> thank you. we strive for an acquisition different resources that might process that produces value for be available. all the parties involved in it, the veteran's administration is but both the government and one specific resource that is industry must understand and out there. work with knowledge of the there are other programs, there others' imperatives and the are other things that can be political and business environment in which they make done. it's sometimes difficult to find decisions. industry seems to have a much them. it sometimes takes time on the web or to look for local better sense of the government's operations and objectives than resources perhaps through local the government has of the environment in which industry has to operate. veterans groups. over the years of working on the we have been running this industry side of this divide i program here for four years in have been repeatedly impressed by the range of complex factor orlando and i'm surprised when that is gotzluz producing people say oh, i didn't know we shareholder value rather than had a post-traumatic stress merely focussing on single disorder clinic in orlando. elements like contract profit. we need to keep at it. i believe a deeper appreciation on the part of the government of i would encourage family members industries imperatives could to be there to support loved lead to a pentagon customer better able to use incentives ones. that certainly will help people rather than compliance measures understand what they are going to get its products and services through and family support, just in a cost effective manner while knowing someone is there and knowing they are behind you is attracting a much broader segment of the broader sector to very, very crucial in helping the national security business. veterans get the treatment they once again, we point to clarity need. treatment such as the one we are and requirements, timely decision making, productability, doing is not always pleasant to
and funding, business terms, and do. if they have family members who conditions, such as the treatment around the treatment are behind them, cheering them of intellectual property, on, saying great. consistent and transparent yet thank you for doing this. this is going to make you flexible methods of better, that can make a lot of determination value. these are the essential features of a well functioning process. yet, they seem over and over difference for people. >> we are going to b.j. in again to just kind of allude our virginia. good morning. welcome to the conversation. grasp. the degree amongst -- the degree of consensus among reasonable >> caller: my question has to do with prescribing medications. people that get in a room about what a more effective i have been listening to c-span acquisition process should look like has been repeatedly amazing for a long time. to me every time we have a study the higher rates of suicide in on the topic. given our long experience with the power of this entractable this war versus previous wars evening lib yum that seems to has to do with the fact that persist in the current system, and this was very well described veterans are being preskibed in a lot of its testimony about paul francis over gao, the real question is how do we start against a different outcome? ultimately in my view we need to combinations of sxanax and othe get beyond clever problem statements, colorful band-aids and a lot of have iing are as hand waving to identify and go after the root causes of the current dysfunction in the drugs. acquisition process. can you address the issue of in my opinion there are several medication and safe prescribing? very, very difficult things that
we need to take a look at. >> well, i can address that just from a research perspective. let's first start with a budget i'm not a psychiatrist, so i process, including congressional, the budget want to make it clear, i'm not office, the authorizers, the offering medical advice about appropriations committees, omv which medications one should be and the dod comptroller and the other football managers. we need to be looking at this taking or not taking. process with all of these folks in general, there are a couple in a xrensive fashion for things going on here. one is, there are more objective consideration and major changes that probably medications available. would upset a lot of very heavy sometimes certain medications taken in combination can be rice bowls. many n my opinion the budget lethal. we know that. mixing medication with alcohol process probably drives for can also be a lethal stakeholder behavior in the current system than any other combination. the other thing is, it's still not clear if we are talking about more suicides or there single factor. really are more suicides. i want to give you an example the other thing is -- not merely that's not related to anyone. enforce whatting congress has mandated in terms of its there are a lot of times people know that one car accidents, for standards and i hear of the disconnect that i see between example. sometimes people wonder, was it one of the ig seems to be on the really an accident? issue of price reason versus some people in clinic will talk what congress has mandated for to me about, well, if i'm going that same issue on commercial to kill myself, i'll run my car item.
many of these organizations like the dod inspector general, the into a bridge. i think we need to be careful office of the operational test about how we classify all these and evaluation are independent events. by statute and have no real whether it's ten people a day, 22 people a day or one person a institutional responsibility in a large amount of prize for day committing suicide, that's individual program or procurement outcomes. too many. whether it's the result of the influence of the oversight medication or other factors, t community has fostered a very strong compliance culture in the work force and in acquisition it's too many. we need to turn our resources. organizations and the leadership >> does the university of that everyone seems to crave does not untilly grow out of central florida and the treatment you have, do you this current environment. incorporate prescriptions into oversight organizations cannot your treatment? play more constructively in an enterprise focused process in my >> no. view without candid and very we don't. this program does not prescribe difficult discussions about medication. some of our people -- some of balancing priorities and perhaps the people who come to our consideration of changes to statutory mandates for these program come and they are already on medications organizations. another area i would point to is prescribed by someone else. we ask them to just not change our people. our people are key. the federal acquisition work anything while they are in our force needs to be transitioned program. our program is completely from the current compliance base transaction by transaction behavioral. culture fostered by the current it's psychological. it does not include medication. budget and oversight approach >> we'll hear from a veteran in that is we have to looking at round rock, texas. things from an enterprise view you are on the air.
and with capabilities to >> caller: thank you. i am a vietnam vet and i left effectively apply value approaches on behalf of the vietnam in '69. taxpayer across an entire acquisition life cycle and even i'm still, the v.a. is still multiple acquisition life cycle treating me for ptsd. where's, however, we have to i have to take medication, hcl. recognize and look and considering this in what we do that these people only have so much time and attention, and they're really burdened right i still can't watch tv. now. there are a lot of work that i still can't do a lot of things they have to do. that the work force that we have because, especially having to do with the military because it now is the one and ones with the really upsets me. one of the main things that's current roles will be primary acquisition roles for the next happening today that upsets me years. we have to start place. is when i hear these congressmen we won't be able to wipe the slate clean and start over. and hear these different effective education and other politicians running for office support as well as change management will be essential in consider us as boots on the this effort. if the provisions of the fy 16 ground. we are not boots on the ground. ndaa on the work force with the we are men. defense acquisition work force we are women. we are serving our country and i development fund changes in some of the other authorities are any think they should treat us better than calling us boots on indication, congress appears to be willing to provide any the ground. that leaves an insensitivity. reasonable authorities and funding to help achieve a move you don't worry about a boot. in this direction if dod will it's not boots getting harm eedy
request them and use them. the wars. we also need other gatea capture it's more than that. i wish all these people would and analytics, as these are the stop saying that. only ways i can see for it really upsets me. understanding the costs, including opportunity cost, of the system that we have now and all of its elements. >> i agree with you 100%, sir. conclusive evidence of the magnitude of the costs of overhead, the oversight burdens, in my mind, all our military are the cost of missed opportunities, and the cost of heroes. they go and do something that lost time and dollars could the rest of us don't do and they drive these changes if all of are willing to put yourself on the stake holders will only the line to save us back here in collect the information, look at the information, and follow the united states. the reason i do this program, i tell people that i am actually where the information leads. there's one area where i privileged to be able to provide disagree, and that is that i do not believe we will make any this treatment program and this progress thinking about clinic that we have to the men acquisition and the issues in and women who have done so much trying to transform the system for us. if we view our mission as so, thank you and for all the continuous improvement. veterans who called too and the current system at its most probably still will call, from improved would still be too the bottom of my heart, my dad slow, too cumbersome and too was a veteran, my cousins are veterans, deeply thank you for costly to meet our emerging all you do for our country. >> how many veterans, how many national security challenges. current soldiers have you treated so far in this program?
>> we have treated about 200 people, so far, in this program. it's in order to force to an elick wrum state. thank you. we are not going to stop. we will keep treating. we will keep the doors open as [ applause ] # jo our next speaker is byron long as people need us. >> what is the goal of the military giving you this grant? what is their hope that they see a success rate that expands? what is the goal? >> the goal is to see if the program that we have that kelum. byron is a long-time financial includes both the individual and market portfolio manager and the group treatment as well as the virtual reality, as well as analyst. he has previously worked at lion's path capital as well as doing it in a three-week version prudential equity group. as opposed to what we call a he always brings a good and unique financial market lens to 17-week version, which is more this debate, and we're looking forward to your remarks. typical of outpatient therapy. the goal of all that is to see thank you. if these treatments are effective for post-traumatic stress disorder. if we can get a success rate higher than what other at the last one of these events in june i talked about why i treatments have right now and if thought this time was really different for acquisition reform we can do this in a very
compressed fashion. and this time the charge was to one of the things, there's a lot talk about what could the dod do of people out there both therapists and people in the public who think that doing to be a better customer? exposure therapy every day for three weeks, that people are going going to, they use the words go crazy or fall apart. one thing we are proving with this program is that doesn't happen. i want to be encouraging here you can have people approach because there's a lot that's these very traumatic events in going on. the d.o.d. does recognize some of these issues, and i think the this very concentrated fashion ndaa embodied a lot of very and people get better, they don't get worse. there was also concern that a program that might be this important steps that need to be compressed with treatment every taken, but i think as this event day might increase people's rate of substance use or might lead exemplifies, there's certainly more that needs to be done. to more suicidal thoughts. you know, the first point -- i again, we are collecting the think there's got to be a recognition that time is money. data to show that doesn't happen. suicidal thoughts go down even though treatment is occurring every day. people are not drinking more at i think along that same line night, even though treatment is
occurring every day. these are very, very important this idea that these lengthy being acquisition cycles, they outcomes that we are going to be just add cost to payrolls, able to report when we finish companies have to pay for the study. this is going to say to everyone people, maintain facilities, keep assets busy, and without out there that physical recognizing that time is money, illnesses where people require a you are incurring costs on short period of intensive re companies. particularly some of the smaller ones that will keep them out of rehabilitation we can do the this market. same thing. i think related to that will we need to have people who know second point, the concepts of how to do the treatment. time really need a reset. we need to have therapists who are willing to do the treatment i was at the raying national and who aren't afraid they are defense forum in simi valley, going to make someone worse and we need to get that out there to and i heard twice the mrat the places it needs to be. program held up as a model of a large part of this program, at how quickly the dod could the end, will be what we call dissemination. acquire systems. we'll be doing not just writing i've got a friend jim hasek who scientific papers, but providing training workshops, going to is at the atlantic counsel who different places and teaching is doing a thesis on this. people how to do this treatment defending where you start, it could be three to seven years so that we can get it outside of for the mrat acquisition to really -- from the ooift first orlando, florida. we want to keep our clinic open
here. we don't want to be the only requirement to when the production really took off, and place where this treatment occurs. i just don't think that the that would just be wrong. so, with the money that we have program should be an example of, you know, how quickly the from the army and, by the way, acquisition system can respond the program's not just open to to urgent needs. the army, it's open to any someone else at the same conference made the comment that branch of the military. we want to get this program out only in washington d.c. would 18 to other people. months be considered a short we want this to be a treatment time, so keep that in mind. people can use. >> let's hear from another again, just because the pace at veteran, harry, in georgia, you which technology is moving, this concept of time, i think, very are up. >> caller: yes, thank you, much needs a reset too. c-span. third point, i think it's i thank our government for what they are trying to do for the important not create false veterans. i'm a vietnam veteran. when i came home from vietnam expectations. specifically i would look at diux which was -- initially it's i -- i didn't go and get medical treatment because of the stigma stanford university and last august in terms of staffing and of mental illness in our country. it was years before i decided i engagement and how they're would go and present myself to actually working this on the the v.a.
i know there are a lot of gis ground right now. out there who are like me, who will not go to the government because of the mental illness it encourages companies to bring stigma that our country has the best and their brightest down, let the soldiers play with it, and, you know, had one ceo placed on mental illness. i would like to speak to them used to say, we got tired of and tell them that our doing a science project for the government, the private sector army. appreciate because of the if there is going to be response i have gotten from the something there and people will different areas, private sector get a return for, again, that's and government that i have gone part of not creating the false to. >> okay. that's harry. i want to get in another expectations part. veteran, michael in queens the third point -- really the village, new york then have you fourth point phil touched on this, and i think it's respond. good morning, michael. >> caller: thank you for the important. this is really appropriate work you are doing. what i want to ask you is a few points on what you and other returns for appropriate risk. guests have been saying is by the time you get because i'm i point out some of the cyber army reservist, by the time you get the balance of veterans as companies, for example, publically traded ones, fire
eye, palo alto networks, these well as other civilian victims companies if you look at their formal statements, they or patients of post-traumatic basically they're not reporting stress disorder whether it's crime and the action of any profit right now. disclosing you have ptsd, not if you drill up, and it's to deliver the product. it's not the marketing and having the d, the disorder, research development costs, there are 70% margins, but getting that stigma that is partly out there in the public they're also putting 20% of their sales into research and when you are with friends, development. if i were dod, you know, i would family or with many veterans. like to have the advantage of that investment and the type of people that frankly are your disclosure is going to work attracted that sort of investment. against you as opposed to i really do think that, you getting to the balance of getting respect, understanding of, yes, i have ptsd. know, this whole debate particularly in areas where the i may have ocd or another dod will have to bring some some of the commercial sector, the disorder that getting treatment is -- how do you get to that margin wills matter. balance of respect and understanding from the public when you have less than 1% serving in the military that does not understand and the
diux in embassy, and i don't stigma hurts. >> michael, let me ask you know if any of the embassies lately, the u.s. has been put in before you go, how old are you? different companies, but, you what war did you serve in? know, wal-mart, general electric, they don't talk about >> caller: i'm 34 and served in embassies in silicon valley. they talk about their offices iraqi freedom twice and afghanistan once. >> doctor, you heard two for outreach. that may be semantics, but i perspectives one from a vietnam relate that, and probably the war vet and one from the most d.o.d., instead of just relying recent wars. on federal business both having the same sentiment, opportunities to explain what they're up to, maybe there's a little bit more translation that getting over the stigma. >> it's incredibly important. could be done to translate what i think we, as mental health kind of problems we go picture problems the dod has and how professionals have to lead the that might bring in the people way on this. we use the term disorder because that's the word that is in the in the valley and frankly the rest of the country to work on diagnostic manuals and that's the word that we find, you know, this. when talking to insurance companies or wherever it is. i strongly support the use of the term post-traumatic stress because i think it's something that we can all understand and it is trick is getting it experience. quickly enough into the when i talk to the public about this, i try to get them to department of defense, so, you understand, i say think about
where you were on 9/11, for know, as phil pointed out, you example. did you have, after everything have -- there are two things, that happened in our country just in conclusion, that i don't that day, did you have trouble sleeping that night? see as important, and maybe they did you find you couldn't stop strike a kind of mom and apple thinking about the airplanes pie issue that i hear a lot in flying into the towers or the the acquisition discussions. airplanes flying into the the first is i don't necessarily pentagon? did you have that image in your think that d.o.d. has to be more head? most people can say, yeah, i can stable and predictable at least compared to other commercial remember that or they can remember a traumatic event that enterprises. yes, that's true for big long they had. then i say, think about if that production timelines for major weapons platforms, but stable didn't go away. you know, it's not -- we are all and predictable is kind of wired differently. contrary to innovative and that's an important factor when it comes to how any disorder is agile. just as the thought on this, i highly recommend a book called created. for example, there are people the competitive advantage by rita mcrath. who are just more reactive to she's a professor at columbia university. this is written about how companies responding to this sounds. if a loud sound occurs in a quickly changing world. movie theater, you are going to i think it's worth a read for see some people jump and some anybody in this room who is interested in how to think about sit there and be quiet. this in a defense content. we have different nervous systems to begin with. another thing we know with post-traumatic stress is that
the closer you are to the event, the more likely it is that you will develop a longer lasting condition. why? because you were there at the personally, look, if a company brings a great idea or a product scene of where it happened. and it meets an urgent need or so, both callers are absolutely an unrecognized requirement, i right. a third thing we know is that would reward them, and i very it's often much harder for men much appreciate a comment that peter newell made recently. to admit that they have he was the former head of the depression or anxiety because we army rapid ewhipping initiative. socialize boys from a very early he noted that the last time i age or at least we used to. you know, big boys don't cry. was shot at, being fair wasn't the first thing that came to don't show that you are afraid. so, men have gotten the message that even though they are feeling one way, they have to mind. behave another way. this is one of the reasons we sometimes see among men, higher >> we are always fortunate to rates of substance abuse and have phil odine join us. addiction to substances because he has been very help nfl the men with anxiety disorders or past several times, and glad to see you again. phil is the former chairman and ceo of trw. post-traumatic stress disorder he is also the former ceo of are more likely to use alcohol as a way to decrease the bdm, two terrific defense symptoms they have. they think, well, if i drink, companies. he is now currently on the
i'll relax more. defense business board. if i drink enough, i'll fall chief naval operations executive panel, and we're glad to have asleep. you don't fall asleep, you pass you here, and look forward to your remarks. out. that's a different state. but, people are afraid of the stigma and that's something that thank you, sir. >> yeah, thank you. we, as psychologists and it's a pleasure to be back. i have talked to these groups a psychiatrists and all mental couple of times in the past and health professionals have to get out to the public. enjoyed today, especially the early speakers, and i'm sure post-traumatic stress is no i'll enjoy the -- i do plan to hang in here and listen to all different than if you had a physical injury from this war. of them. some of the things that happened my theme today is that to people over there, and again, acquisition reform is not just important, but i think it's even with crime victims here in this country, some of the things essential to the future that have happened to people, some of the things that happen capabilities and u.s. technology to people that have been and our military dominance. we simply have to get this sexually assaulted. they are horrific things. right. every year the hill or the no one should be expected to pentagon or somebody comes out snap out of it. so, we have got to do a better with a new agenda for defense job of convincing everyone that reform, and yet, if i look back over my years, i'm not sure this is just another form of we're any more effective today than we were back in the time of injury. it's every bit as debilitating. packard commission or bill it is every bit as need to be perry's initiatives in 1990s and, phil, i think your comments recognized as something people kind of are a real case in point are not just, in many cases, for that particular point.
faking, not just lazy, they others have talked about many of the other problems that we face. can't just pick themselves up and do it. we have to get to that point. i hope by doing programs like let me talk first about the this with you that we can reach challenges facing the the people that it really traditional acquisition system. then i want to shift to the real matters. focus today of my talk, which is >> you talked about the modernized treatment you are doing at the university of central florida. reaching out to the small rapid it's the only comprehensive one. moving technology companies are other places like the v.a. and other military institutions across the country. looking at this virtual reality there is a real lack of clear rinz lines of authority and therapy? >> yes, there are other places responsibility. you know, the old too many cooks that have the virtual reality spoil the broth thing is absolutely applicable here. therapy. there are some v.a.s where it is you've got to know who is in set up and functioning. charge, who is responsible, and then you have to hold them all the v.a.s, clinicians at the accountable. if you don't hold people accountable, are you never going v.a.s have been trained by the to have good results. i think if you look at the v.a. in two treatment that is turnover in program managers and have success. one the prolonged exposure, peo's and the people that are which is the same principle of very responsible, it's not a very pretty picture. expoture without the virtual secondly, the incentives are reality. the other is cognitive misaligned. affordability is not processing therapy, which seems
incentiveized. it should be very high on the to have some effectiveness for incentive list. the focus is on getting the what we are calling in the v.a. program underway, getting the and in the d.o.d. military dollars flowing, et cetera. third, a few programs, big trauma, it's sexual trauma that programs, are started off right. costs and schedules are unrealistic. happens in the military. technology is often immature, there are some treatments with and there's excessive concurrent effectiveness available in the v.a. they don't have the group component that we add. they are not always using the si. finally, related to this, virtual reality and they don't do it in in compressed fashion. operational requirements are there are places, i know there seldom well defined and the are v.a.s that have the same performance expectations are often very unrealistic. lacking these, you're not going virtual reality we are use zing to have a good outcome, and, here in orlando. again, you'll have more change >> how can people learn more? orders, schedule slippage, and cost growth. >> they can go to our website, given these factors and others have talked about this, probably no surprise that we've had many which is ucfptsd.org. disappointments in large programs, although as i think they can call us. the point was made, many of them our phone number is have been successful, the wrong one, and it didn't work well in combat. let me refocus and talk about 407-823-1668. if there's no one there, leave a another major challenge, and that's d.o.d.'s limited ability message.
we do call -- we try to call to reach out to the rapidly back everyone within 72 hours so people will know we dpgot the moving high-tech companies all around the country that are really changing call. we are here to help. we want to be of service to define it. those who have been of service to our country. it's a passion we have. we are not just doing this because it's something to do. d.o.d. has limited capacity to we are honestly committed to tap into these companies for a this. lot of reasons. >> well, doctor, we appreciate your time this morning. i think everyone would agree that d.o.d. lags the commercials thank you very much for allowing the c-span bus to be at your school and talk about this issue. sectors in a bunch of areas, thank you. >> thank you. whether it's cyber, whether it's on friday, washington journal was at the university of robotics, whether it's rapid miami to talk about work in the innovation, whether it's use of big data, internet of things and area of climate change. on and on and on. this is about 35 minutes. these are areas where the commercial sector dominates and d.o.d. simply has to access this technology if we want to make our forces capable and effective joining us from the c-span as they should be. bus to talk about how the climate is changing is dr. ben and i think we recognize potential enemies are often more agile than we are in tapping kurtman a science professor. into this sort of thing. professor, thank you very much for joining us. let's talk about the study of climate change at the university of miami. i don't want to say that d.o.d. how do you go about studying
has not no cutting edge climate change? technology, they have, and this >> well, we do a lot of things was mentioned in talking about major systems. related to climate change here if you're looking at nuclear at the university of miami. we have one of the -- the only, propulsion, stealth, supersonic aircraft, these areas, d.o.d. i would say, state of the art has great technology and interaction tank that looks at something that has, in fact, been effective over time. how the ocean and the atmosphere but even in these areas, access to commercial technology would help them as well in the future. talk to each other in high wind the intelligence community events associated with hurricanes. we have a climate group that does some of the best state of the art climate modelling to recognize this and they've tapped out -- reached out to the technology community and they understand how the climate have a vehicle called imputel system works and how it might change in response to increases in greenhouse gases. we have scientist that is look that i'm sure you're all familiar with. that's been quite successful in at how the ocean takes up carbon a relatively narrow set of areas but it has worked. on the other hand, it serves a and how it leads to the ocean and coral reef ecology. we have scientists that look at how it affects fisheries. unique set of customers. they tend to be more open to new we cover the entire gamut of technologies, they're not as risk averse as the pentagon tends to be and because of the nature of the mission they're not as open to criticism, climate change. oversight and so forth so they >> how do you do it? can make things happen sometimes i mean, how do you study this, that would be difficult elsewhere. as you may know other parts of all these different ways than is
the pentagon are trying to different than what the emulate this. government is doing? they are looking upsetting up their own version. >> well, when you say the i think it's a good move, it may work but i'm not sure it can be government, what they are doing successful simply because they don't have the same attributes is funding us to do the studies. in a sense, we are doing that government sponsored research. the intelligence community has we have grants from the federal in terms of the willingness to government to investigate take risks and to incur risk and specific questions about climate change. so, for example, how do changes move quickly like intelligence community has been able to do. in the gulf stream affect south the other point brought up was florida climate and how would secretary carter's silicon valley initiative. those changes change in a what was that byron said? the embassy in silicon valley, changing climate? which is a good way to look at there's all that kind of work, it. i think it that has potential to in some sense, sponsored make a difference. government research. when you say what research the government is doing, they do it through sponsoring activities here at the university of miami. but it's very early, we don't know how it will work out. >> how much money are you we are hopeful it will work but let me suggest a few reasons why getting from the government to i think we should temper our conduct this research and what enthusiasm for this effort. has your research shown? >> well, the exact dollar first, small innovative companies may well want to work for d.o.d. but unfortunately
they don't trust the department amounts i don't have at the tip of defense. they see far more down side than of my tongue, but we have a very upside in working for the department of defense. extensive research portfolio. it's somewhere, in the marine tales of d.o.d. bureaucracy, worries about intellectual school, $50 million. property, all of these stories the exact figure, i don't have are legion and they hear them at the tip of my tongue. and know about them and are concerned about them. for me to outline all the things we have shown would take ten of your shows, but, we really demonstrated many important things. for example, we have done a lot of research to show that, in and another factor is these fact, since the 1950s, the companies do not need capital. most of them are well climate has warmed. capitalized so they're not desperate for d.o.d. dollars in that's unequivocal. order to be successful. we have done research to and if they are successful, the separate how much of the warming markets -- they're going to appeal to commercial markets we have seen since the 1950s due include manager international markets and these markets will dwarf until dollars the department of defense can put in to natural variability and how their pockets over time and they much is due to greenhouse gases. simply don't want to put these potential markets at risk by dealing with d.o.d. there's a whole suite of various another factor, this has been mentioned, if d.o.d. is to studies we have done about climate research locally and exploit this new technology, they have to streamline their acquisition policies. globally. we have arctic research. there are plenty of potential in that huge portfolio i mentioned on the order of $50 million a the far. year covers an enormous set of
research projects. >> the c-span 2016 bus on the the defense authorization bill gives additional authority and last stay of our sunshine state capability but these things have to be used and not simply be part of the -- in some's acquisition bookcase, and the tour. today, at the university of miami. it was chartered in 1925, a private university. it's enrollment, about 10,000. work force has a lot of trouble dealing with this type of supplier. 2700 undergrad and 5500 graduate students. they simply are not trained, you undergrad tuition and fees, go to the defense acquisition $45,000. endowment is 865 million for the university, there's almost no training in using far part 12 university of miami. we are talking with dr. ben kurtman, who is a marine and and these other flexible uses, ways, fast track, kind of atmospheric professor at the flexible policies. and i think the work force is university of miami's school of also risk averse and stepping out and using these policies, marine and atmospheric science. taking creative approaches does here to take your questions incur risk and people for good reason worry about that. about what they are doing there to study climate change. in addition you have to worry about the technical work force we are divided the lines here in the eastern part of the of the department of defense, country -- its labs.
if we're going to adapt this technology, the lance are going >> we'll go to ralph in battle to have to play a role incorporating into our weapons and equipment and the work force creek, michigan. has aged. question or comment for the a lot as has atrophied and because of hiring and other problem there is's been very few professor? >> caller: well, i wasn't sure if he was a marine expert, but i wanted to ask him about the news that's coming out that october infusions of young people with fresh technology, fresh ideas and fresh ways of thinking. has been found by noaa and the japanese meteorological association that october is the i'm sorry to be negative about this because i'm hopeful that warmest ever on record and 2015 initiatives will succeed and i'm encouraged by the passion and energy that secretary carter is will, if the trend continues, putting behind this initiative. if he has the time to sustain this effort and he only has and it almost certainly will, another year, year and a half to go but if he has the time to sustain it and he can get the 2015 will be the warmest year full support of other parts of ever on record and it will be 1 the pentagon which may be a challenge, there are also rumors floating that there's opposition down in the weeds to these degree "c" above average or initiatives but if he has that time and the ability to really get the full support of the something like that? pentagon behind him i think it >> yeah, that's right. can make a difference but it in fact, you are right. won't succeed business as usual. the data from noaa, nasa and the japanese meteorological organization is showing global i think the best hope would be to put a senior person, somebody
temperatures about .98 degrees with the clear support of secretary carter and secretary celsius above normal. of atnl to push this effort. part of the warmth that we are seeing is, in fact, comes from natural variability. he's got to ride herd on the we have an el nino that acquisition work force, make contributes to some of that warmth. certainly, some of that warmth sure they'll use these flexible acquisition policies when roadblocks appear, and they will is due to global warming. appear, he has to step in and the trend is very clear. break them down and if you can do this i think there's a fair this is 2015. chance that this initiative can it is going to be one of the, if succeed. not the warmest, one of the warmest on record. >> what does that mean, going but it's not going to do it forward, what's the impact? unless you have some particular focused effort by people at >> going forward, i think what very, very senior level. that says is very clearly, we if this does work, and i hope it will, we ought to look beyond are seeing a continuing trend silicon valley. since the 1950s that the climate system is continuing to warm. that's unequivocal. there are a number of other there's no debate in the areas in the country where very outstanding technical expertise scientific community about that. in the academic community in we are at that point where we particular. think of boston with the m.i.t. need to start making decisions about how we are going to adapt culture, robotics, fast data. all of the things that are being to the changes associated with the warming. done in that area could be of
great help to the department of defense. another important area is san diego which has become the center of biotechnology research that adaptatiodaptation, how it in the country and, again, areas south florida, how it affects of interest to the pentagon and the sea level and how we they should think about reaching out to those areas as well if respond. they can find a way to make every part of the world has a different set of challenging these initiatives work. issues they have to deal with. we need to take this global so let me close and say thank you for the time today. warming to the next step and say how are we going to respond to the challenges? i think that response has both appreciate the chance to be here and i look forward to hearing opportunities and difficulties. the other speakers as well. we need to start making the [ applause ] move. otherwise, it's going to be to the point where actually dealing >> thank you very much, phil. with the changes that come with folks in the back, we have seats up here if you want to have a global warming will be very seat. you can ignore the signs of the expensive and very difficult. seat and come up and have a seat if you'd like. our next speaker is our very own vice president of the lexington institute. dan has the lead for us on acquisition reform issues, he's >> dr. kurtman, when would that done a fabulous job in recent years on this issue. be when it becomes very expensive? he is a former -- had key >> well, that's a great positions at the office of
secretary defense as well as question. csis and several other important you know, ime not an economics organizations and, dan, looking forward to your remarks. expert, but i do see when you think about specific challenges, so if i think about, for example, sea level rise in south florida. when you try to retro fit the >> thank you, mack. it's an honor to be here associated with such marvelous speakers and experienced people. canal system, that retrofit i'm not sure if i paid you enough for the ability to be on the stage of this group. process is more expensive as sea as i'm listening to everything level rises. right now, south florida is at the cusp where things are getting expensive. if we wait five or ten years, the cost goes up tramatically. that's been said and thinking back over the stuff i've read and the work i've done, i don't get it. i'm not an expert on the i don't get why d.o.d. has such a problem getting what it wants economics, but the costs are a president price it wants and steadily increasing. >> rob in pittsburgh, go ahead, the quantity it wants. it runs the show. rob. >> yes, hello. it's the 800 pound gorilla in i was wondering if your climate the defense marketplace, not just in the united states models include the contribution obviously but globally. moreover, it writes the rules. it defines the terms of the of volcanic activity to global engagement, it does the oversight. it has excess data. warming and that's my question. thank you. if you were a private company competing in the park place >> excellent question.
for -- pick your product, and in fact, they do include you were going to go out and buy it and you had access to the volcanic events. kind of preferential rules, those big volcano emissions in regulations and the rest and the tropics shoot a lot of information, first of all, you'd sulfate air particulates into be in jail because it would be the stratosphere and it has considered to be illegal but you know i mean talk about the art short term cooling. you might see one that lasts a year or two years and signals out to three years. we definitely include those things in the climate models. of the deal to bring it into modern political terms. wow. it's critical. it's a puzzle here. i've been thinking about it. it's important. we need to separate the natural why is this the case? yes, you know there were events that lead to cooling. problems of miscommunication or differences of interest that exist between the department and so, it's really important that the providers of services there we include those things and, in are examples of waste, fraud, and abuse although one would fact, we do. have to point out given the >> juanita in cincinnati, good magnitude of budget, the number of contracts, the incidents, morning, you are on the air. demonstrated incidents of real waste, fraud, and abuse other than programs that go south >> caller: good morning, how are which is not quite the same thing, that relatively rare. you? i have a comment and a question. moreover one would have to assume that if, in fact, more my first comment is to c-span. oversight, more intervention i have called many times before more agencies, more assessment, and told you i am a grad from all of that stuff, more rule, right? 1973. i have been looking or taking a
content analysis of college for the past eight months. schools of color. the increase in the number of there are plenty of schools of regulations were, in fact, the color. now, maybe not extensive as miami, but c-span has done a answer then there had to be at this point 30 years -- almost 40 poor job of vetting these schools as well. years after the packard commission a direct correlation between the rise in those input factors if you will and better my second question to the performance, right? you would have to assume you could watch the number of gentleman is i am a retired regulations go up and the cost librarian from the university of or the per high team cost of cincinnati. how have you downloaded this defense goods go down. there's no relationship. information to your high school in fact, there's even been an ida study done for the students in the miami area so undersecretary of defense that says there's no correlation. they are able to understand what the issues in climate changes are? that's all. have a good day. thank you. the only correlation we can >> it's a great question. figure out -- i'm being very
simplistic but none of the way i really appreciate that. the programs eventuate and their we have done several things. ability to keep closer or farer i personally got involved in from scheduling costs is a function of the budget situation engagement activities on the when they started. if you had a kind of rich budget weekends to education teachers situation that everybody didn't lie as much about schedule and and these events include high cost, to put it bluntly, and if it was a tight competitive school students about the basic budget environment they tended to guild the bill by and science behind climate change. i also appreciate the push that you are providing in that therefore you had a chance of question. as a scientist, we are probably things not lining up. not doing enough and we need to do more. i do really appreciate that encouragement. things are going on and we do but all the precise navigational. what we can, but we should do so it struck me here at this point that we're not just talking about sort of the problem of acquisition reform more. >> juanita, february 4 through and making d.o.d. a better buyer. the 20th, we did a tour of i'm all for efforts to do that but with this focus of the last seven years on better buying historically black colleges and power, version one, version two, units across the country. verse three, we've tended to forget the other side of this you can go to c-span.org to find which is d.o.d. is not merely a buyer, it's also a customer. there's a difference between a it there. that happened back in february, buyer and customer. for those that are interested. phyllis in lincoln, california, good morning, phyllis. >> caller: hi, hello. can you hear me? and it's also a difference >> we can. >> caller: thank you for your
between being a good customer work, sir. and a bad customer. i am an activist and i have in the business management written a book about global warming and we talk to a lot of people, my husband and i do, we literature there's stuff about have electric cars. good customer service and how people go to us and approach us. you deal with customers. i go to book signings. the thing i find so fascinating is the terminology between how you improve service and the work and how you deal with bad global warming and climate customers but it's interesting i change. came up with -- there was a there is a difference because defined characteristic of bad global warming, the planet is heating up. when i mention the terminology of global warming people say don't ever say that word. don't say that word. that's inflammatory, it's customers and let me give you a couple of those. climate change. this was a list put out by one article. the planet goes through cycles. first, data point, if you meet these criteria you're a bad i try to explain to them, yes, customer. swaps vendors in industry and our climate does go through boasts about it. cycles, but this is something the staff complains about him. and it's the staff of the very different. service provider. we humans are causing our planet on the other hand, the customer is abusive to the staff or complains about the people to heat up because of the carbon they're being serviced by. payment issues. late payment, nonpayment. we are putting in the air. changing payment rule, etc., etc., etc. i try to explain how that works. i notice that scientists used to
always call it global warming, now they stutter and go back to the terminology. adding or changing the scope of so, i just wanted to make that work during a project. this is on the commercial side. comment and have you talk about nothing to do with defense. it. thank you very much. look of availability. two sides. >> i appreciate the comment. i also notice that confusion customers who are constantly in your shorts and constantly about global warming, versus hectoring the provider for all kinds of things, couldn't think climate change is used to sort for themselves but the other case was customers where you of divide communities in terms of how we talk about this. i think the transition between this notion of global warming and climate change came about couldn't communicate. and the last one on this list when there was a certain about of confusion. some people have a hard time was tries to game the system. now other articles have added things like, for example, always assuming that the service understanding climate change is provider is wrong. not a straight line. that the problem is never on the side of the buyer or customer. there are going to be periods always the provider that gets it wrong. where it looks like the climate is warming faster than in the second one, which is related is past. there's going to be periods always assuming a victim's status and i've heard a lot in where it looks like the climate the last several years about is slowing more. this adversarial relationship i think that transition from between d.o.d. and the private global warming to climate change sector. tried to emphasize there's a trend, but there's also natural variability superimposed on the
trend. it can be overblown but i think the earlier question about it's real. volcanos, there could be a volcanic emission that makes things look like the climate is it's not just adversarial. some is probably good but this notion that the government is not warming as fast as it was or being victimized in many respects by an industrial base. a big el nino like now that makes the climate look like it's somehow it's only the defense industrial base and all the warming faster than in the past. commercial items that come in from much larger pens to socks that's superimposed on the trend. and all kinds of other things the scientific community trying that's okay and everybody in to make it clear there's not a that industrial base is honest straight line. and okay and somehow the defense it's not always warming at this industrial bases are not. rate. the sense of victim hood not there's a natural variability only means you don't look at your own part in the problem but it also means that you are superimposed. establishing a relationship in some circles, it's created where communications become more and more difficult. more questions. the notion of talking climate change is important. i don't think we should run away from the language of global warming, either. >> since the 1950s, the climate there's an analogy here. i was thinking of a tv show, a great tv show i watched a couple has warmed. times about a bridal boutique, how much is natural, how much is all the problems they have. the would be bride comes in and due to greenhouse gases? >> so, our best assessments are brings in the mother-in-law and the mother and then the about 70% of the warm thag we bridesmaids and a sister or two
and they're going back and forth have seen since the 1950s is due to fossil fuel emissions and 30% and everybody has an opinion. and if you go from one fitting to the next the cast of is natural. characters behind the bride will change and then it was the certainty on those kind of estimates is like 95% to 100%. the way i look at that, i know washington you have 535 friends of the bride who all come into i'm contributing to 70 pbl% of the room who want to say something about the length of the sleeves or the back and all the rest and oh, by the way, between the first fitting and the last and without telling the warming i have seen since the bridal gown designer, the bride 1950s and it's true, 95% puts on 30 pounds and can't confidence in that number, am i going to respond? absolutely. that, to me, is really the state understand why she can't fit into the dress she ordered. of the science. i want to emphasize that our confidence in those kind of so there's a piece here which is numbers are really high because about being a good customer. we have multiple lines of on a number of issues, we're talking about timelines. evidence pointing to the same thing. we have a bunch of different this was an interesting thing about timelines which really data looking at how much the matters. ocean is warmed. when it takes you years to we have a bunch of data sets formulate a requirement because of the laboriousness of the looking at how much the land surface warmed. how much there's been a retreat process you are -- as we've had examples of -- likely to be out of date not just with technology in glaciers and how sea ice is but within the world stage as things are moving more rapidly. melting. they are all pointing to the same thing t climate warmed
since the 1950s and the bulk is due to human activities. and when you're talking about can't write a contract for software in less than 18 months when i see that evidence, it's to two years when the technology clear, the science is solid on is changing on the level of six months there is something wrong this. >> part of c-span's sunshine state tour. we are at the university of miami this morning talking about and it's not with the vendor. this is not about money, it's climate change with dr. ben kurtman, a professor there at not about price, it's not about margins. the school of marine and we're simply here talking about things like timelines. companies are ready to go on something and they wait. atmospheric science. they wait for the rfi, the rfp, sam in ft. lauderdale, florida. the final. they wait for the award. good morning, sam. >> caller: yes, good morning. i'm right up the road from the you can spend six months past doctor in ft. lauderdale. the promise date waiting for an award. this is anecdotal evidence, not sl id evidence, but i'm retired and one of my morning activities is to ride my bicycle. going back a few weeks, when we had that supermoon or blue moon or whatever it was, when i got up by the hillsborough inlet, the place was flooded. if time is money or time is lives when it comes to the the neighborhood around there,
military this, too is unacceptable. and then you have problems where there was a foot of water. some of the roads were blocked we haven't factored in issues on off. the customer side of the cost as i said what's going on, was there a lot of rain? well as the lethality of things he said there's no water, it's we do not only post-award but flooded from the tide. obviously, something is going on into production. when that kind of thing happens. we are in a state where the for example, operational tests and evaluation. governor forbid the state got to have good test and employees from using the word climate change. evaluation, no question. but at what point does it become so, you, as a scientist, when you have people that just an interference with schedule? absolutely refuse to listen to all your evidence and because they don't like what you are at what point does dotting that saying, they deny things and last i and crossing that last t, particularly on major programs turn it political instead of that you know will be around for trying to figure out how to save 50 years and you know are going to go through endless cycles of the planet, they just rather say upgrades that will correct whatever deficiency you find on the first go around, at what point does that become not just counterproductive but a threat that doesn't exist. to national security? so all this is a way of saying yeah, you have to think about how do you account for and buying power, there has to be an accomplish and get around those kind of problems? >> a fabulous question, thank ability of the government to
have some reasonable confidence you very much. it's getting a fair deal. basically, i see two parts. one part of your question is talking about what we call clear sky flooding here in florida. that really, the frequency of maybe you want to argue on military items the best deal those clear sky flooding events have become much more frequent. possible but the government also needs to recognize that it determines to a large extent the that's basically due to sea level rise z. nature of the playing field, at least for defense goods and again, that's unequivocally services. and if things are too slow, cost related to the global warming we too much, don't come out the way are seeing. the government wants it, the as you warm the oceans, the first place the government needs to look is not at industry but at itself. oceans expand. thank you. we know that from personal [ applause ] >> thank you very much, dan. experience. but, also, as you melt ice our next speaker is ken miller, terrific friend of the lexington sheets on land, that fresh water institute for many years. runs into the ocean contributing to sea level rise. thank you very much for come, that's creating when there's ken. very high, high tides as in september and october, that ken was an aerospace engineer creates flooding. for naval air systems command the sea just comes out through for most of his career. the storm drains and floods the he fought his way all the way up to the senior executive service where he provided by advice on roads. what's interesting is that acquisition-related issues for a variety of aircraft and weapons communities, people like you who systems and finished off his federal career as a special see this anecdotal evidence, the clear sky flooding events, that's how society responds. assistant for acquisitions for the united states air force. it's related to the chronic he's president of kem and associates and it's great to see
you. thanks for coming, ken. problem, the long-term problem >> good afternoon, everyone. thanks for having me. of sea level rise. the second part of your like max said, i've worked in comment -- i'm sorry, the second government for, like, 35 years part of your comment was about and then i got out and i worked the difficulties that scientists have in a politically charged in the private sector for about environment. what i would say is that, you six years. so for me to be listening to know, as scientists, we try to everybody talk about improving figure out a way, if i want to work with people in local state the acquisition process, to me governments, we try to figure it's kind of interesting because out a way to communicate without in my view i don't think there's getting people in political hot anything new out there. i don't think there's any silver water. we want to try to present the best available science in a bullets to solve any problems. i think that what we really need to do is think as to whether or neutral perspective. not the process we have right now really needs to be improved that's a challenging one. or just do we need to execute it the police cal environment is better? hostile to the environment. it delays4ibe things, slows th down, it's a negative thing. we do the best we can in a in my view, you need about four things to kind of make the whole acquisition business process charged situation. i do think that if our local governments, our state governments accept the climate
work, you need to have the change and use the best available science to guide requirements sorted out. policy decisions, as a you need to have a good sense scientist, i can't have a gripe about the policy decisions other and a good infrastructure on the acquisition side, you need to be able to have the great interface than as a citizen and get out with congress and the budget and vote. side and you also have to have to make it a politically charged the right alignment with the private sector. scientific subject doesn't make sense to me. i think we have a responsibility as policymakers to take the best available science and then make policy decisions. >> doctor, do you follow the climate talk that is are going my view is that improving this to be happening in paris later whole process is improving the this month, the beginning of congruency and harmonization of all four of those sectors. december? and what's at stake there? i can spend hours talking about what are the countries trying to all four of those areas but since i have about nine minutes decide? what confidence do you have that left i'll probably just spend a they can all come together? couple minutes on each one and >> yeah, it's a very important question. the conference of parties meeting in paris that happens in december, they are really looking at in the simplest, starkest terms, how much warming give you what i think are the are we going to shoot for in key highlights from my stabilizing the climate system? experience to be successful in those areas. are we going for 2 degrees sels
on the requirements side, you must clearly understand what is use, 1.5 degrees or one degree? required, why, and when. you need to know what those thresholds, the targets performance is wanted and have a have definitive impacts. clear requirement analysis to be there are communities like the able to identify where the good enough break points are. caribbean island state that is are arguing that the two degree target that seems to be most popular at the moment is too high. too much of their nation's will be overly challenged and may more than the today's threshold and objective process. have to abandon ship. i also think one of the things some argue that we need a flesh we do is we always come up with hold that is more ambitious like solutions that are point solutions. there is a lot of opportunity to 1.5 degrees or one degree. do more analysis on looking how what they are trying to do at we can look across applications the paris talks are find that threshold and find the impacts of the world economy and to solve more than one problem in my experience, when you get livelihood is going to be. it's a tough problem. requirements right you have a better chance of program i'm cautiously optimistic that some agreement will come out of success. the paris talks that get us no one of my favorites, started in the process. acquisition. it's like we need to come to an agreement on something to get the conversation going, to get the world community going and having a better-trained and say, look, this target is not so
experienced acquisition work bad. in fact, there are opportunities force is probably one of the to capitalize on and be more most important things using the right type of contract for the ambitious and aggressive about harder and harder targets and right type of program. here's another big one -- clear time goes forward. accountability for program it's critical that the world act and the paris talks are our opportunity. i'm optimistic we'll do that. managers, peos, and saes. >> the hill newspaper reporting, when you have success, reward them. when you don't, change them out. gop doubtful about paris climate here's a little anecdote. talks. republicans used two when i was working in nav air a congressional hearings about the thousand years ago as a program ability to get an acceptable manager it was incumbent upon us goal in paris this year. to always make sure you were on it goes on to say that they also a program that was executing well because if you didn't noted votes on tuesday in the execute well you'd probably be senate to overturn president replaced. obama's carbon limits for power plants. the key piece to his international pledge to reduce the countries emission 26% to you could get replaced in those days because we had a strong 28%. doctor, any thoughts on the acquisition pipeline and you had a lot of other people senate action this week? experienced to take your place, now days we're just getting by. >> well, i'm disappointed. from a policy perspective, i agree with what the obama
administration is trying to implement. i want to emphasize, however, i'm not a policy expert. i'm a science to do as a the third area, the good old budget in congress, we never scientist is i want to make sure seem to have enough money for the senate and the obama everything, but there's some things we can do probably a administration, the house, local little differently and here's governments, everybody is using the best available science in one that i used to do and i regret doing it when i was on order to decide their policy prescriptions. and as an individual citizen i the budget side and that was can decide that i don't like provide better program budgeting what the senate's doing and vote my senator out of office if stability by getting away from death by a thousand cuts. that's what i want. also embrace more block buys on but i think what i would really large capital investment like to encourage the senate is to actually engage on the best available science and i'm not convinced that the senate has done that at this stage. programs. i would love to have the and then here's another one that opportunity to make sure that i think is also very important. the various senators are really briefed on the best available science about climate change and that they use that information allow for the ability for the program manager to budget at a in order to guide their policy higher confidence level and prescriptions. allow them to use and keep some of their management reserve. that's what i think's a fair now days if your program comes process. i may disagree with their policy in and you try to put in prescriptions in the end, but at least i want to make sure we go through the process of using the management reserve, that's
probably the first thing you best available science to inform take. the policy prescriptions. >> we'll hear from thomas next i know when i was in the budget community that would be the from mason, ohio. first thing i would take. good morning, thomas. >> caller: good morning. it's in regards -- i thank you for c-span. i want people to hear that i have a son who lives in vermilion, ohio, who heard big if i didn't take it, somebody else was going to take it after me. booms this past winter, and they so finally, in the private go to find out that they sent an sector -- and i've had a very icebreaker from canada because our ice breakers weren't big enough to go to the middle of interesting opportunity to work in this area for about six or the lake erie and help a barge seven years so i now have a broader view of this probably from that standpoint. get out of the ice. the ice was 10 1/2 feet thick. you need to have better discussions during draft rfp that's global warming, sir. stage between the government and private sector. and then on the same note there i've seen some scenarios where the government has got on the was a group of scientists that point where they're afraid to went to antarctica and got stuck talk even in a draft rfp stage in the ice 100 miles from so we don't have enough clear antarctica. communication back and forth. how can you explain that? i also think there needs to be just follow the money. how are you funded, sir? better alignment up front how are you being paid to research this? just follow the money.
between the private sector and the government in the r&d world. thank -- right now the requirements get >> i appreciate the questions totally mismanaged. here's my favorite one before i about the ice. it's really -- and this is one get off the stage. i think it's probably the most of the things that's really important one. i think we've lost the meaning important when we think about -- of best value. we think about climate science. there's definitely going to be periods of time when there might be more ice in the great lakes or there might be particularly in antarctica where the ice is best value in my opinion is now driven by the austere budget very annual. it comes and goes every year, so there's lots of high-frequency requirements to a selection process where lowest cost has variability in the actual amount of ice. become by default the primary so, we expect that. and in some cases the only selection criteria. that's absolutely part of the when you do that, you're climate variability and climate change that we actually understand. defeating the entire purpose of and what the challenge is to try best value and you're cull to -- try to separate those high-frequency events that you're referring to from the separating an environment of behavior resulting in long-term trends. you have to take a very suboptimized selections. so in conclusion, after 40 balanced, long-term view of years, i can find of throw rocks what's happening to the climate system. at a lot of different areas just like i can't blame this because i've been there and i've seen it so i have advice for you incredibly warm october entirely all. so in conclusion, no new ideas on climate change. i acknowledge part of it is due
nor a single bullet but really to el nino. take solid execution of all the i can't say that increased ice in the great lakes is communities i've talked about. necessarily a signal that thanks very much. climate change hasn't happened. [ applause ] you have to look at multiple years. multiple lines of evidence to make a balanced decision. in terms -- in terms of my funding, you know, i go through a pier eer reviewed process and >> thank you very much, ken. our next speaker is pat tracy from hewlett-packard enterprise scientific community evaluates the quality of my research and services. that's the way the scientific process works. >> wayne in shreveport, louisiana, good morning, you're pat is a retired vice admiral next. >> caller: been a long time and in her distinguished navy career she had many terrific since i called. jobs including director of the i am a truck driver. navy staff and we are looking forward to your remarks. thank you very much. let me tell you something, climate change is the biggest >> thanks, mack. hoax, lie that's ever been told i'm not going to pretend to be to the people in this country. as much of a student of i've told it 1,000, nobody seems acquisition history or to be listening. acquisition reform as most of without oil and gas, there's the people in this room. nothing to replace it. i draw from three perspectives there's nothing to replace coal. when i think about what ought to all these scientists all they change in the realm of acquisition. are is a bunch of hypocrites, i was asked to lead a review of the sufficiency of acquisition all the scientists in paris are authorities in connection with a 2006 qdr.
a hypocrite and just like obama is a hypocrite. a qdr that took place as d.o.d. all of you are liars. was ramping up its use of rapid you're working on a big scam. acquisition authorities. it's nothing but a big scam. we all know that. you are costing us jobs. second, in my current role, you're taxing us to death and success depends on helping to lead teams to navigate this acquisition system to earn the you're nothing but liars. opportunity to deliver services i get tired of you people just and later to sustain the ability getting on talking about climate to deliver to the actual versus the competed requirements and change, it's nothing but just a big, big lie coming out of you i'm doing that inside of an all's mouth, why do you -- organization that is a silicon >> wayne, hold on, because you're accusing our guest here of lying. valley-based company, that is a let's give dr. kirtman a chance largely commercial company. to talk to you about the science. this is what he studies at the university of miami, go ahead, and where the packard of the doctor. >> well, yeah, i have to packard commission designed the governance process so keep that confess, i have no interest in in mind. the cli -- hoping that the third, i was the director of the climate warms. navy staff at the beginning of in fact, i wish it didn't. i live here on ground zero. the navy's large transformation i wish there wasn't sea level rise. i wish my community wasn't program, the navy marine corps challenged by this problem. internet program mr. that role, and honestly, you know, i follow in that seat i got to see my nose as a scientist, where firsthand how important senior leader engagement on all four the science goes, i think corners of the acquisition it's -- it's -- my efforts are process are important to the not politically motivated.
it's just to understand the best available science, the science, the multiple lines of evidence success of any complex program. i come at acquisition reform that indicate that the climate with a lot more questions than i do answers. system as a whole has warmed since the 1950s is unequivocal. i would urge the caller to take there's absolutely no doubt that a successful acquisition a deep breath and come back and outcomes are more important today than they have been any engage on the science and ask other time in our lives. threats and potential adversaries are proliferating. specific questions about specific results and we could technology disruptions are happening at an accelerated pace come to a consensus, i'm quite sure that since the 1950s the and they advantage us and confuse us and they are lowering the thresholds to entry to climate system has warmed. sophisticated operations that were once thought the purview of that's unequivocal. only a few nation states. now, the question that's a legitimate area of debate is how much is that due to human influence. again, i think the multiple lines of evidence are indicating budgets leave very little room that the bulk of the warming for sustaining duplicative capabilities and end order we've seen since the 1950s is effects are manifesting due to human activities and, themselves more rapidly. again, i would urge the caller the acquisition process that is to really engage on it, ask the speedy, flexible and predictable with regard to its outcomes, sign ticientific questions and fully educated on how the attributes that compete within each other and not in meaningful science is understood and if he chose to do so i think he might ways. change his mind. as we contemplate reforming the acquisition system it's not but, really, i have no -- i have clear to me that the most
important changes can come we they are legislative or no economic benefit, political benefit. it doesn't do me any good that regulatory changes. are we confident that both the climate is changing. in fact, i would argue it might be a bad thing for me personally. >> dr. kirtman, if he and others want to learn more, can they go to the website, the website you all have, rsmas.miami.edu, is government and industry participants understand all of the authorities that exist in the far? it -- >> they can go -- >> go ahead. >> they could go to that website, but they could go to that website, but i think the best resource for the best all of the flexibility that available science today, a real exists in the star in do they understand the scenarios under which they are most applicable? clear scientific consensus is there a shared understanding among the acquisition across the communities practitioners amongst the associated with the contracting officers, amongst intergovernmental panel on climate change, they write a the requirements writers and amongst the program managers so that they can work together to achieve the real end users' 5,000-page report every five to requirements? seven years. the most recent report came out in 2013-2014 and there's a nice technical summary and a summary for policymakers that really are we encouraging industry to lays out the science of climate be similarly familiar with those authorities so that they can change in a very nice way. understand what flexibilities exist and how to let their >> alvarado, texas, gerald? customer understand how to exercise those flexibilities that matter? >> caller: yes. good morning, greta.
first off, and i don't ever hear more than knowledge and exercising those authorities, it anybody talking about all the takes courage and it takes jets flying across the sky every day and what kind of emissions senior leader engaged are they doing, what kind of involvement to enable the control are they doing to those practitioners to actually for emissions. navigate the kinds of processes and construction sites, that are departing from the norm industry as well needs to there's -- there seems to be nothing done out on the construction sites at all. i mean, every time you go by a construction site on the road, big black smoke. i'm just curious about all of re-evaluate our risk equation to know that we can be ready to that, i mean, i don't really perform in a government in an era of profound and continuous believe in climate change. i don't think there's anything uncertainty. the system today is characterized by deep distrust ever going to be done to change and chronic defensiveness at every level and at all sides. it because the united states alone can't be doing this, the are the leaders today visibly engaged throughout the life whole world has to participate, and i don't think you're ever cycle of the programs to support innovation and cross discipline collaboration so petitioners can going to get that to happen. build confidence in using these >> okay, gerald, dr. kirtman? unusual and more fluid >> yeah, i had a little bit of a acquisition processes? difficulty understanding the first part of the comment, but i think i can -- i can talk about the second part of the comment. and that is, is this notion that there has to be a worldwide are oversight processes agreement in order to respond to
climate change. i agree with the caller. engineered to encourage but i think that's an evolutionary process. i don't think that's going to purposeful creativity or are practitioners motivated to find necessarily happen right after this meeting in paris. the best way to acquire that i think it's a process that's will i limb nate the made the to going to evolve over time. what i would argue the united states being really one of the most industrialized and one of the most educated and the most technologically advanced can escalate to the next higher lead the world in responding to level for approval of something that is a little bit different, climate change in a way that's a little bit harder, a little bit more comprehensive? an economic benefit for this courage and cross discipline country, that actually makes engagement by leaders are more important here than are this country stronger. regulatory and legal changes. and so what i think is we need to start that adaptation problem right now, today, and think it's exciting to see some of the about how we're responding to changes that are happening in the climate change that's going some areas to enable the rapid to happen in the next 5, 10, 15, acquisition of important i.t. 20 years having an eye on the capabilities, the ways in which future to reduce emissions and what's going to happen in the next 100 years and as we lead the way and develop technologies and strategies to mitigate and adapt to climate change, i some contract contracting shops today are exercising some of the think -- i think we can lead the unusual aspects of the far. are all government parties aware world and so that evolutionary of what it takes to be process of everybody getting on successful under those board will happen.
circumstances? are we helping industry to so, i appreciate the comment, understand what success and but just because it's difficult goodness will look like under those acquisition processes? to get everybody to agree today, i think doesn't mean we need to stop acting. we need to actually start acting what can we learn from the ongoing proactive collaborative today and then i think lead the way and then people will come on board. >> dr. kirtman, you ked earlier oversight aimed at accelerating outcomes that characterizes 70% of the climate warming is those kinds of unusual acquisitions? due to humans to green house gas my experience is that both government and industry would benefit from reviewing our emissions 30% natural is what procedures to know we can be successful in those engagements. the science is showing. if the united states and other countries take steps to reduce that 70%, how far or how much can they actually reduce it? second, acquisition domains drive really different measures of success. acquiring the next offset >> well, what we -- what we capability for defense is really really are thinking about in different from acquiring a multiyear services contract. terms of the paris conference is acquiring lawn and facilities stabilizing so that we -- for maintenance is really different from acquiring it services at an example, we don't go past the enterprise scale. 2-degree barrier. there's some people that think we're right very close to that 1 -degree warming mark at the moment. i think we're a little bit shy of that but, you know, when we
get to 2 degrees the climate acquisitions that depend on or impacts become quite severe, will generate behavioral changes there's thoughts on thinking require a very different kind of about how to stabilize the engagement by the acquiring climate system in the long-term organization and those buying commodity services. is it time to think about future and that's a nationwide, emphasizing individuals and global country problem and we oversight processes that are have to embrace that today and start figuring out how to do that and i do think that's an evolutionary process. at the same time for the next 5, 10, 25, maybe 30 years there's a specifically tailored to comprehending the unique aspects of each of those categories of certain amount of climate change acquisition? that is baked into the system is it sufficient for the members of the -- the key members of an that we've already committed to acquisition team to only that's going to happen and so comprehend general make measures local communities like miami of cost, schedule and beach which has to deal with performance and not understand this clear sky flooding problem what external factors might actually affect the performance is going to have to adapt to of a program to the end user's benefit or to their risk? those pressures. and what's important is we accept that the climate is would it be beneficial to changing, that releases people's encourage outreach and collaboration between government contracting experts in both industry and government? thinking and they can count on third, does there's widespread partnerships with local governments and states and agreement that we do better when federal governments to think about how to respond to those we have open dialogue about what pressures of climate change to the requirements actually are. make miami beach a beautiful that every acquisition would place to stay at for the benefit for -- from more though roe communication between those foreseeable future and that kind of interaction really requires who wish to bed and those prying an acceptance of the basic to procure. science, let the science inform
should the government make more the policy. and so that process needs to be use of down selects in order to be able to sharpen the dialogue better engaged here in florida and elsewhere in the united with those bidders whose states. and, again, i think since florida's that epicenter for proposals appear to align the best with government requirements? climate change we can lead the nation. we can lead the nation in terms is industry ready to accept that of developing strategies, best policies and practices and also technology in terms of how to respond to climate change. dialogue won't be even and equal under those circumstances? >> all right. let's get to dennis in palm bay, florida, dennis, good morning, you're on the air. >> caller: good morning. would it be helpful if leaders i'm curious to find out if reviewed hard the decisions that you're aware of the current are made about government members participating in industry forums where current and future trends are discussed? temperatures of the water in the where government might have a chance to influence those trends equatorial pacific. if they were free to and i also wanted to make a participate. point that there was ice is the policy interpretation as it's being applied today suited mentioned earlier. if you examine the ice, you will to the government's need to be able to determine that the reach out to more providers? to have a bigger influence ice inis antarctic is the around the technology trends that are under way. taxpayers deserve an acquisition system that will, with high same size as the ozone hole at probability, put the right the moment. i think you're very capable of capabilities into the hands of the men and women charged to answering some very scientific execute the missions they are questions. i was wondering is deflation
from gas rising out of the ocean what's causing the flooding in texas and florida and -- >> let me -- let me try to take assigned on their behalf at the right time and in the right apart the question a bit. quantities to be successful. first let me talk about what's they deserve that such a system going on in the tropical pacific. so, we're having a rapidly evolving el nino event so it's really quite warm in the will pay only what's necessary tropical pacific. to produce that outcome with that's going to shift storm high probability. tracks over the u.s. for the law and regulation alone will next several weeks. not achieve that outcome. perhaps even bringing some it does take courage and it takes senior leader involvement on all four corners throughout much-needed rainfall into california. so, certainly climate the life cycle of our programs. variability has winners and thank you. [ applause ] losers. south florida, for example, we expect to have a wetter winter here than normal, so there are some good things that are happening associated with el >> our next speaker is steve nino. there are also some bad things mccarthy from the uk embassy that could happen. here in washington. they tend to have more problems he's the minister of defense material. with fires in australia and indonesia, so there are always winners and losers, but there is that's a huge ocean between the a big el nino going on in the united states and the uk and on tropical pacific. but there's also global warming that we're starting to see in the tropical pacific and the procurement issues there's a extra tropical pacific. bigger golf between the way your in terms of the ice extent in
antarctica and its relationship to the ozone hole, i'm not particularly aware of a lot of research in that specific area, but the antarctic ice is government conducts and our government does. and we're looking forward to different from antarctic ice and your remarks. thank you very much for coming, steve. >> thanks to mack and the lexington team for inviting me it comes and goes every year back again. because it's an open ocean my job is twofold, one to give that's fully exposed so it's not you a funny british accent to necessarily a really good break up the day. [ laughter ] indicator of climate change. secondly to reassure you that you are not alone and that acquisition problems in defense when you look at arctic ice, are not a feature unique to the that's very old ice, and so that united states. in the uk we've had a long history of just as many responds much more slowly, so problems. it's seems said samuel peeps started procurement reform in it's a much more -- a much the 17th century. we're expecting results any day better measure of the slow soon. evolution of climate change that we're seeing and we are seeing declines in arctic ice that are quite dramatic and have [ laughter ] continued for the last several >> so our history has been one years. of an apparent endemic sense of overruns of costs and long >> well, dr. ben kirtman, we delays and that's the impression many people in the u.s. have want to thank you and the about the way in which we do defense procurement, just like university of miami for hosting some speakers have said you have here. us today down there and talking to us about your expertise and what you do at the university of miami when it comes to climate change. thank you very much. but as others have said, the facts are slightly different in >> thank you, greta. i really enjoyed it.
my country than in the public great experience. on newsmakers this week rhetoric. our national equivalent of your georgia congressman tom price gao recognized that progress is being made with the costs of our chair of the budget committee talks about budget and spending top 20 programs reducing by $600 million and our best performance issues before congress. the new republican leadership under speaker paul ryan, and the on time a lack of slippage since 2001. debate over what to do about syrian refugees and fighting isis. "newsmakers" sunday at 10:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. that means we are making progress, finally, it doesn't mean everything is bad. but what i thought i'd do for the rest of my time here which i sunday on "q & a" -- thought would be most useful is to say as well as the same problems we have with the things you struggle with is what things >> i'm the first woman to reach we do have that are more the rank of four stars in the united states navy. i had only been a three star, oh, gosh, maybe 10, 11 months different than happens here in the u.s. the first of these is one that's been referred to by a number of when the cno was traveling speakers and that's the issue of budgetary discipline. through town, i was down in norfo norfolk, and he asked to see me, and i presumed it was about the next job i was going to. in 2010 when then new british and then that's when he talked government arrived it carried to me about we're looking at you for being a four star and here's a couple of different opportunities where we think you
would, you know, do well and out its major defense review and as part of that and development benefit the navy. >> vice chief of naval of the longer term economic plan made very serious decisions on major reductions in future operations admiral michelle programming in order to do one howard, admiral howard talks thing and one thing only and about becoming the first female that was to balance the budget we had between our former program and the catch we had to four star admiral in the history spend. of the navy. she also discusses her career in the navy prior to her current there were painful decisions in there. appointment including leading the navy's mission of rescuing captain phillips who was captured by somali pirates in 2009. we had risk and capability gaps in a number of areas but what it >> i became head of the meant is that today we now have counterpiracy task force and a few days on the job captain a programmed and formal and conserved contingency provision phillips was kidnapped and so it around $7 billion and $12 billion worth of head room later was our responsibility as a task years for the forward program. force to get him back and get that contingency is fundamentally important to us him back safely. and that was obviously a surprise kind of a mission and a challenge and so we got him back. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern and pacific on c-span's "q & a." because all programs eventually suffer some form of risk and slippage and the ability to deal with that centrally rather than on tuesday a senate put the impact on the program judiciary subcommittee held a makes us more able to be hearing on policing and the role of the department of justice's flexible than we have been in previous years. the next big change i thought civil rights division. we'd mention is we've been committee members heard consciously injected private testimony from members of that
sector enterprise into our organization. division as well as law that isn't the issue about using different contractors, it isn't enforcement officials. the issue about finding new ways this is almost three hours. of developing and benefitting from new technologies. >> this hearing will come to order. it's using expertise from the welcome to everyone here. welcome to the firsts in the private sector in our buying first panel and welcome to those who have come to participate in arm. this hearing. and one of the ways we've done that is to establish our the purpose of this hearing is procurement organization as a thing in our treasury jargon is called a bespoke trading entity. what that means is procurement to look at the challenges facing business for us is the in a separate organization that is the brave men and women of law disciplined and kept enforcement. a great many of us have been growing more and more concerned at seeing police officers the subject of public vilification. seeing police officers being undermined and hearing from deliberately apart from the police officers across this people that set the country that they are less and requirements. it also means -- and i'll come back to this in a minute -- they have more flexibility in paying people and rewarding them in order to keep their services. less able to do their jobs, that they feel their hands are tied, but most importantly we call it that they are scared if they
engage in proactive policing in the community to keep the an arm's length body and that community safe, that they risk does one most important things which insert discipline between their relationship -- into their relationship between them as the being personally hung out to dry. supplier and the services as the customer because in our view that they risk seeing their peopling up on something that careers, their livelihoods dan was saying, it's the customers' lack of discipline destroyed. that where many problems in procurement originated. like you we have also enjoyed that they risk seeing their the centralized or decentralized debate. it goes on in a ten-yearly cycle family held up for public and the pendulum swings one way or the other. condemnation. we've been going through the process to decide whether or not the service authority should have more power to determine and sadly, the consequences of this are significant. their own future and their own requirements and deliver their the men and women of law own capabilities and where we enforcement risk their life each sit since between is that our and every day, police officers officers do have the authority to develop their own procurement go in to dangerous neighborhoods with criminals, and every day programs and as other vs. said have the accountability for delivering them. what that means for us is that they are taking a risk that their life may be lost protecting the community. while the center still plays an overall important role in if the police are intimidated, setting the program, what our ambition is for future if they're scared, if they're capabilities it's the services not willing to do their jobs, we who set the requirements, who
have the freedom to prioritize know the result. the result is the loss of life. the result is rising crime. their manpower, equipment and training requirements to balance you know, some recent headlines underscore the consequences of this. just three days ago "the off between those things and to deliver in the best way they see fit the objectives set for them washington post" reported that at departmental level and most importantly perhaps is the chiefs of staff of those homicides have risen in several u.s. cities this year. services who are held personally accountable for delivering on this quote, dramatic surge in those objectives. so if an army program that goes wrong, the person that gets in killings has been confirmed as well by media outlets as diverse the neck for that is the chief of staff of the army. our dns has also been going as "usa today," "national through a significant transformation. we've introduced commercial transformation partners into the review," "the economist," "the organization to help them with specific work pages. for example, we have now deck tell advising on maritime and air domain programs. new york times" and "the washington journal." according to "the washington ch 2m hill doing the sand for post" there have been 143 land and joint enablers. homicides so far this year. these people are not managing the program but they are that is 53 more homicides than providing an alternative and distinct voice to program executives to say "are you sure at the same point last year. you're doing the this the right nearby, baltimore has suffered even worse. way and have you thought about alternative ways of doing things?" baltimore has now suffered over
it's not just equipment. 300 homicides this year. this gruesome milestone, "the we also have service providers washington post" lamented, helping in our infrastructure organization looking at the best resembles the violence baltimore way to manage our estate and experienced decades ago. trying to find new ways to improve the efficiency with which we run our infrastructure. similar homicide statistics can be found in milwaukee and st. the key factor that that arms louis and new orleans, in length arrangement has enabled our procurement arm to is chicago, in cities across the retaining skilled staff and a country. number of speakers mentioned this. so we now have in the organization more authority to pay market rates to compete with and of great deal of concern to law enforcement, the number of industry to incentivize people to improve their performance, to allocate staff where their skills are most suited so people don't get stuck in the same old law enforcement officers killed business doing the same old things. through acts of violence has and to better match work force demands with the needs that we have. been on a precipitous upswing so what that meant in simple terms, we had to break our acquisition organization out according to "the hill" in an article published this past may. specifically the officers killed in 2014 was nearly double those from the normal service roles on employment and pay so folk get killed in 2013. better rewarded for better tasks but they also get fired more easily if they don't perform. another important transformation james comey, the current in our acquisition organization
which i think is also slightly director of the federal bureau of investigation, has been vocal about his concerns over crime different than has been the case here is an increasing use of trends. commercial providers to deal with most of the services we used to do internally. director comey has expressed the for example in the areas of defense logistics. in 2014 in december we sold our views that excessive, unjust defense support group who now in scrutiny of state and local law enforcement may be contributing to this trend. now, everyone here agrees that the organization run by babcock do all of the storage of our military vehicles and weapons. in april of this year, we won a 13 year contract to improve we should enforce the law, and efficient sip in warehouse procurement and stock control of food, clothing, general and we should vigorously enforce medical supplies, we just don't america's civil rights laws. think we need to own those services in the department. in any government organization there can be bad actors. in any large group of people there can be individuals who choose to violate the law. and anyone who chooses to violate the law should be held accountable. but in my view it is deeply harmful not only for the men and we think they're much better provided by commercial companies who know how to do this as part of their core business. women of law enforcement, but
lastly in the commercial space we've increasingly sought to buy outcomes and not products. for the safety of the american examples in place are the air people, for the federal government to treat police officers as the enemy, for the president or the attorney general to be holding up police officers for vilification. tanker aircraft and military communications satellites are now provided by as services. we don't own the aircraft or satellites. i will say i was particularly disappointed last year when we buy refuelling, we buy trained pilots and we buy bandwidth. president obama nominated an individual to serve as the head that means the risk of of the civil rights division who servicing, providing, maintaining and keeping updated had previously represented an those particular provisions is held by our service providers, we just look to get the outcome admitted cop killer. that does one very important and interest thing that i don't and had not just represented think anyone has touched on today which is as well as the him, but had represented him pro search for commercial providers bono for free and had lionized and celebrated this cop killer. tside of the normal defense markets in terms of technology, now, every individual in a criminal proceeding is entitled whether it's robotics or competing, it also brings into to representation, but those that you go out of the way to the defense field in our face service providers that genuinely volunteer your time for for know how to provide a service not just defense equipment. free, and those who you lionize and celebrate, reveal a great that's an important distinction
for us. i'll close by saying i think the biggest single factor in the last two decades or so in deal about your beliefs and where you stand. bringing down the costs and performance of our acquisition programs at the major end of the i would note i was proud to scale has been embracing open stand with others, including pennsylvania senator pat toomey, in helping lead the fight international competition which against confirming that nominee i think is arguably the most to the justice department. and it is worth noting that even with a democratic senate, even under the leadership of then basic acquisition reform of all. the issue of competition majority leader harry reid, the senate refused to confirm that nominee, as a number of internationally raises tough questions about sustaining your industrial base and about retaining operational democrats joined the republicans in saying we should not have a senior official in the justice sovereignty but as can be seen not least from the wide number department be an individual who has chosen to celebrate and lionize a murderer who has of u.s. platforms in uk's portfolio of equipment, most of murdered police officers. those concerns are mitigated by buying stuff from our closest allies and making sure our industrial bases are closely it was a few months ago that i interwoven. we think that approach is wholly consistent with our defense policy which is international in attended the funeral in my nature. hometown of houston for deputy byron referred as not talking about foreign governments.
and my advice is stop telling foreign governments that they're foreign governments and treat goforth. them as part of your base, too. deputy goforth was shot at a gas thank you very much. [ applause ] >> thank you very much, steve. our next speaker is greg kiley, station in an act of violence president of kiley and that i believe was a associates. >> greg a former professional staff member on the senate arms manifestation of the growing services committee, former defense analyst at the congressional budget office and retired c-130 pilot in the u.s. air force as well as a u.s. air antipathy directed at law force maintenance officer. enforcement. good to see you, greg. thanks for coming. and i will note that funeral >> good to see everyone. thank you, mack, for inviting service was an incredible and me. powerful funeral service. it was held at second baptist it's a very august group of church in houston. dr. ed young provided the speakers. when mack called me he asked fixed speak on how d.o.d. could eulogy. it was an incredible sight to be a better customer but he also asked if i'd put a couple sit in the sanctuary and to see sentences on my bio so i'll take those sentences to answer the first question. thousands upon thousands of police officers filling that sanctuary. everywhere you could see were men and women dressed in blue. so, yes as a good trained military officer i'll give the in their dress uniforms there to honor that fallen officer. bottom line up front, three main points, repeat what i said an dr. young in the eulogy get off the stage. [ laughter ] looking at my background and where i came from, how i could powerfully observed that in the contribute to the this body, in two words, sustainment matters. old testament the levis, the i'm talking about sustainment of weapons systems.
priests, wore blue. and he drew from the lord's prayer to describe the core it's fully one-third of the defense budget. mission of police and indeed in it's fully 70% of any weapons system over its life cycle. particular one phrase in the sustainment matters. so i was a maintenance officer, lord's prayer -- the planes i worked on were older than me. deliver us from evil. the planes i flew were older which dr. young rightly observed if you were to sum up the mission statement of a police officer it would be difficult to do so more effectively or more succinctly than "deliver us from than me. evil." and when i decided to get out of the military after the '90s and the downturn and the hollow i believe every one of us, force we talked about i thought republican and democrat, should it would be straightforward to come to washington to help lend voice to this idea of a spending death spiral of people around stand unequivocally with the here are familiar with chuck spinning and his work, this idea that the systems were getting older and older, costing more brave men and women of law and more, exponential cost enforcement. growth in weapons systems was squeezing procurement so i thought get a job with the congressional budget office, collect the data that must have i do not believe it is been collected, this is going to be a no brainer. not so much. beneficial for this country to have a culture where the men and go to the navy, they'd been collecting two or three years of data, they had a new system that i'm sure doesn't exist anymore. the air force total operating women of law enforcement feel costs were incoming buzz words. under siege. i will note there was a seminal moment in this country when the
members of the nypd stood and they were collecting data. they didn't have more than six turned their back on mayor de years because they changed how they account for flying hours and costs but i spent about a year working and doing original blasio. regression analysis to determine where this cost growth was, that was a moment i believe where this death spiral was. i thought it would be real easy penetrated to the heart of millions of americans what on earth are we doing when senior government officials are to show we should buy new, it treating the police officers as would be cheaper. the bad guys. turns out, cost growth is not exponential, it's linear, 1% to 3% growth per year and that's for an f-22 or a kc-135. this hearing is to discuss the challenges facing police officers, the degree to which they have been vilified publicly, and the consequences we are facing in terms of innocent men and women facing crime, facing murder, lives that have been lost because the at the time the air force was talking about the kc-135 because there were unique system problems. once they fixed those system problems the increases went back to normal. police have been unable to do their job. and i appreciate everyone for being here for this hearing. the point was the death spiral conversation ended and the war kicked off so that kind of ended the idea of we needed to collect recognize senator coons. data. >> thank you, chairman cruz, and so the first point is the data matters and understanding what thank you for the opportunity data you're collecting and today to discuss the core issue analyzing it for matters and you can make a difference. of how it is that we can leaving the congressional budget office, i got a job on the simultaneously honor and respect
senate arms services committee as their budget person and i was going to congratulate john for saying budget matters. the constitutional rights, the he and i have debated that at civil liberties, the civil times. rights, that are at the very foundation of our constitutional order, while still securing peace and safety. how it is that the law enforcement officers with whom i i think it does but john brought had the honor of serving in that up. i won't repeat. i do think you need to be realistic. i can sit up here and talk about county government for a decade depots and how public depots are can meet their call to not just, a waste of money and we could do it better in the private sector but given the political environment we won't get it are as has been put, deliver us from of all 17 in the next year or next five years. one of the parts of the evil, but to actually protect portfolio i wanted to bring up and serve. in this conversation is i had oversight of -- for the while i do think we have an important topic before us today, republican sideover financial the title of the hearing a, management and i talked to my quote, war on police, unquote, counterpart and this had been a high-risk area for the reflects unfortunately i think government accountability office more overheated rhetoric all too since they started creating high-risk areas. common in congress when discussing complex policy matters rather than any on-the-ground reality and it is belied by the fact that there are no law enforcement leaders testifying today despite there financial management in the being more than 17,000 law pentagon ripe for fraud, waste, and abuse so i talked to my counterpart who -- i'll mention enforcement agencies in the who it is later then we reached out to the department of defense united states in support of the to the senior assistant secretaries and then to the proposition that there exists a government accountability office and said let's get together and war on police being waged by the talk about what a system of oversight would look like every six months, every year we had federal government.
our senators' support, what would it look like to make in fact, we will hear from two progress? we mapped out a plan of doing chiefs of police to the hearings every six months, sticking with it and over several years we got off the opposite. high-risk list. my hope is that today's hearing where financial management of can be an opportunity to have a the pentagon is you can ask peter levine because he was my counterpart then. constructive, broader discussion about public safety in our nation and the critical need for meaningful support from the federal government for state and local law enforcement and for the vigorous and appropriate enforcement of civil rights. when i first arrived in the senate in november of 2011, i i worked with him and now he's the deputy chief management officer. looked through the very long list of caucuses already in the third personal anecdote about how this all works and the existence and discovered none of points i want to leave you with, after i left the senate arms them was dedicated to the issues services committee, i got hired of law enforcement. so, i was pleased to join with republican senator blount of missouri and establish the law enforcement caucus which continues on a bipartisan basis to meaningfully educate members by dr. jan hammery at the center for strategic and international and staff on the real issues studies. while i was there we were approached by a couple trade facing state and local law enforcement and their role with the federal government and to advocate for the brave men and women of law enforcement. it includes a strongly bipartisan group of 26 senators and 14 democrats and 12 associations to look at when secretary gates kept on under president obama in his first republicans and will invite the term he started making pronouncements about in chair should he be so inclined sourcing. to join us at some point.
our british fellow talked about together we've worked to ensure services. this is a very important part of state and local law enforcement this discussion. but secretary gates started has a voice in congress as we talking about 40% savings and insourcing. he reformed that to 25% savings. honor our commitment to public every job you insource we'll save 25%. safety like supporting programs a decade prior when the doctor was at the pentagon outsourcing like the cops hiring program and saved 15% to 30%. the burn justice assistance we do two more turns of that and grant. one of the first events discussed the bulletproof vest partnership. a program which has literally everyone must work for fry. so we started to look, we went to the pentagon knocking on saved the lives over 3,000 law doors doing the interviews, cost analysis, they have just stood enforcement officers including up and sustained the office two in the newcastle county courthouse in my hometown of wilmington. i was honored to reauthorize this program. because they realized that's important in 2012. some people are kind of late to and we've held events that focus the game that sustainment is on the resources shared between important. federal, state and local law the data wasn't there. enforcement such as regional information sharing services funded by the department of justice that provides critical equipment and specialized services that local law we thought maybe they've figured enforcement needs but most often out the overhead but, again, how can't afford. to analyze it, compare public i think these are the sorts of sector versus private sector. the data wasn't there. meaningful actions to really support law enforcement that we neither was the policy after we started asking the questions the could and should be discussing secretary of the army walked today. away from the strategy of at this time i'd like to enter insourcing, they took the money into the record 11 letters all but stopped the insourcing.
bipartisan which have i bring up that anecdote but represented the strong and talk about if you're going to have a policy you need to be continued interest by many senators, myself included, in transparent, it needs to be verifiable and repeatable, somebody needs to be held supporting federal programs accountable. critical to the success of state and local law enforcement. more recently four weeks ago we welcomed law enforcement leaders if you think that issue went away, just a month ago the air from delaware and missouri to a force started touting to us on a law enforcement caucus event as they discussed their work improving the relationship between law enforcement and the separate topic about 30% savings on our in source job on another project. communities they serve. did they figure out how overhead it was a productive conversation gets captured? that highlighted the successes did they figure out what private sector labor is? i'm not sure, i doubt it. and challenges in implementing did they go back to a speech with secretary gates in 2009? modern community policing somebody must have told them that it saves. programs which brings us to our the issue there again is topic today, the need to protect analysis. that can be backed up and the civil liberties and constitutional rights of every supported. american while providing the public safety services that are the core responsibility of government. we cannot choose between these so i gave new you my bottom line objectives. we must work to achieve both. up front that sustainment the role the department of justice is both to support state matters. and local law enforcement and it matters in the data, in potentially doing the joint protect the constitutional oversight and partnering in rights of every american, which oversight, being accountable. things like performance bases sometimes requires intervention. the statute enforced by the and i'll wrap up on just two civil rights division section 1 points of how the this translates. 4141 was enacted in 1974 as part
of the violent crime control act performance based logistic, we and was inspired over national put a man on the moon but we outrage in the beat iing of rody king in los angeles. this provision ensures there can can't figure out how to compete in performance based logistics? be no pattern or practice that i doubt that. commercial practices. deprives any of our constituents and i'm getting off topic. of the rights and privileges and but the commercial practices. we know how to buy things. we should know how to sustain immunities secured under the them. constitution. and i'll leave with that. the idea that enforcement of thanks. this statute which literally [ applause ] >> andrew hunter, our next cribs from, is drawn from, our foundation documents, represents somehow a war on police is i speaker, from csis. think contrary to our ideals as a nation. of course, implementation of any statute including this important one requires effort and oversight. so, i welcome the testimony of miss gupta, and i look forward to exploring with her how we can he worked for four or five years work together to further vages in the obama administration and the twin goals of public safety atnl for secretary carter and secretary frank kendall. and civil rights. we are aided in this effort by recent reporting from "the washington post" and "front line" in their joint investigation of police departments that have undergone reforms and i'll share just one former professional staff member of many case studies. of the house armed services committee and also both for former congressman dicks and the. the justice department launched
investigation of the prince congressman spratt. thanks to coming. georges county police department >> when you put it that way, after dogs in its canine unit which is a great introduction, it occurs to me that at some point in time i've been the enemy of just about everyone in this room. but the nice thing about being inflicted 800 bites. at a think tank is you can be the reforms the justice everybody's friend. department required is so it's a nice place to be and a provisions that supervisors approve police dogs and a board good place to be. be established to review officer and it's a very distinguished involved shootings. group, so i'm honored to be here today. obviously our topic is a broad one and i appreciate that you mark mcgaw a department veteran was recently quoted in this very article saying, quote, it was a because as i like to tell folks, being in that defense painful time, there's no acquisition reform is a question about it. continuous employment insurance but both of these agreements have made us better as a police program because it's always popular, always a hot topic of debate. agency hands down. the article then notes the and i think it probably should number of complaints to the naacp regarding excessive police force have been reduced dramatically from nearly 15 c l calls a month to just one or two. i would suggest to anyone watching at home and the be because it is something that chairman and members of this continually needs improvement committee they might read a and can be improved on a helpful report that came out of continuous basis. so today i want to focus on where we are now. the summit organized by the it's noteworthy that defense police executive research forum authorization bill with probably the most significant and extensive changes to acquisition statute, actually i missed whether it had been signed today entitled "civil rights
or late yesterday or later today investigations of local police, or exactly where things stood, lessons learned." but it's effectively at this the summit included police point enacted and will become law. representatives from agencies and we have a budget deal which dealt at least to some extent all over this country and i ask with the budget uncertainty which has been a huge handicap that that full report be for the acquisition system. included in this hearing record. the report points specifically to the new collaborative reform initiative from the cops office it's only a temporary deal. and i look forward to hearing it's too short, but it's the chief davis' testimony on the state of that initiative today. i will briefly share one story from that instructive report. the "las vegas review journal" best possible outcome that i published a series of articles on officer involved shootings by the las vegas metropolitan think was obtainable. police and raised questions about accountability. in response to those articles then cops director contacted sheriff doug gillespie and offered assistance in developing reforms in policies and procedures and training and tactics and investigation and so good news really on two documentation. fronts there. sheriff gillespie sent a team of his executive command leaders to washington to meet with the cops office and its leaders and to discuss the proposal. they reached an agreement and one thing important to note, ten months later in november of though, it's very extensive and that's true, but it's also a 2012 the cops office released a series of legislative provisions full report details its findings that really won't reveal their and i think all engaged have
true shape until they're fully implemented. concluded this was a and that may be a process of constructive and positive several years. because and i think advance in both policing and civil rights. appropriately so for legislation as the most visible form of not all the details are spelled out. government law enforcement quite a bit is left to the officers are at the front line discretion and one would hope the expertise of the executive of our responsibility to safeguard constitutional rights branch to shape and implement while ensuring public safety. these provisions and what it is unsurprising they are held they're really going to mean to to a very high standard given the tremendous responsibility we empower them with in our constitutional order. it's also why i believe when certain commentators talk about the industry base, what they a so-called ferguson effect with will mean to the workforce and how the system operates is very no evidentiary support, it is much yet to be told and that's true across the board from the way that the change in the role insulting to the brave men and of the service chiefs is women who do get out of their implemented, to a lesser extent the mda change, and certainly cars, who do put themselves on the way that the department the line each and every day to implements the change to protect communities across this commercial item provisions and country. i'm not alone in that sentiment intellectual property. and i might close with a quote what will really happen as a result of the legislation is from one of law enforcement's most important voices, a recent still very much up in the air. statement by national president of the fraternal order of police chuck canterbury, who in response to comments by fbi and so i want to talk a little bit about where i hope those director comey stated, first in things will go in implementation. i always like to start with what is the goal, what is the objective.
rejecting fbi director comey's claim that when politicians use their police to deal with years of inequities and urban blight and do nothing to try to build a for me the way i like to summarize it is the objective is better life for their citizens, an acquisition system that is responsive to our needs. then it is these politicians and not the police who have failed and that can take on different characteristics at different times. their citizens. law enforcement is generally left to deal with all the issues it can be faster, it can be higher end, it can be cheaper. that other parts of government tend to avoid. and a closing quote if i might from fop president canterbury, it's kind of what is the imperative of the day. by the way, you generally complaint get all three of those at the same time. police officers have not been longer testimony than i gave on that topic a couple weeks ago chilled and have not stopped that you can check out. responding to calls especially i mentioned some of the things high priority calls that involve violence, this is evidenced by the fact that 32 officers have been killed by firearms in the line of duty already this year, officers who are killed or injured in the line of duty do that i think will be important in trying to get us to that goal. not speak to a lack of engagement, it shows real engagement. with that in mind i'd like to thank all of the witnesses from both panels for their time today i think the role of the service chiefs that was enhanced in this authorization bill, i'm hoping and my colleagues for their that it will be implemented in a interest in working together to way where the service chiefs get actively engaged to ensure that there is continuous dialogue between the acquisition support state and law enforcement, thank you, mr. community and the requirements chairman. community throughout the acquisition process, not that we want churn or change, but just the constant back and forth >> thank you, senator coons.
about what do these requirements really mean, what is really available this in the technological pace that it can i would now like to introduce our first two witnesses. ms. vinita gupta currently serves at the department of inform the requirements process justice as the principle deputy as it goes forward. and that's something that i think we did fairly well assistant attorney general and actually in rapid acquisition the head of the civil rights over the last several years, division. that back and forth with between the two communities along with a a graduate of yale and nork budget community. university school of law ms. gupta has previously worked for both the naacp and the aclu while also serving as an adjunct clinical professor. and it served us very well. one of the other big items that i hope to see implemented this a and mr. ronald davis is also way that encourages more with the department of justice. responsive acquisition is this he serves as the director of the middle path or middle tier of acquisition that the senate bill proposed and has carried through doj's community oriented into the final version. policing services, cops office, and he also the executive director of the president's task force on 21st century policing. and there i think when we were a graduate of southern illinois, mr. davis has a lengthy and trying to find a more responsive acquisition system, i also want distinguished law enforcement to think of it in terms of more career in california, before adaptable systems. as we've had this dialogue and it was a prominent feature of joining the department of justice. the reagan defense forum that happened last weekend about how i would ask each of the witnesses to please rise and do you deal with pace of technology change, the need for the third offset strategy, it raise your right hand. seems to me that we have to have systems that are more adaptable do you affirm that the testimony since we're not going to buy a you are about to give before the whole new set of weapons systems committee will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the every five years, to get new truth so help you god? technology into the system, thank you. ms. gupta, you may begin. >> chairman cruz, ranking member coons and distinguished members of the committee, good afternoon. you're going to have to implement it on existing thank you for the opportunity to systems. and those systems have to have participate in today's hearing inherent flexibility. and to share with you the and to my mind the poster child justice department's efforts to support state and local law enforcement and to promote constitutional policing and public safety. our nation is in the midst of an for that has been the predator system which adapted important conversation about tremendously over the course of policing and the relationship the last ten years as we kept identifying new needs in the war between law enforcement agencies fight. and the communities they serve. and so new weapons, new sensors were continuously added to that as part of this conversation, we system. must all recognize the i think it's a great example of what can be done and what is dedication and bravery of good about our system. america's law enforcement officers. they put themselves in harm's way every day to keep the rest of us safe. we must also recognize the pain interestingly enough, it also in communities subjected to highlights what it is about our excessive force, discriminatory system that makes that really hard. policing or other misconduct. because the predator program was we are committed to work always kind of on the verge of a together to restore trust
nonmccarty breach. between law enforcement officers not because they had necessarily done anything wrong, but the and community members where it baselines doesn't contemplate has eroded. we all want the same things, all this new that the systems would need. and it truly can't. safe streets, officers who come it's not possible. home every night, and the and so this whole push towards protection of the rights of all chalk marking a baseline and people to be treated fairly and of time. it's not possible. so this whole push in our system justly. we want thriving communities in which residents and law towards chalk marking a baseline enforcement work hand in hand to and everything gets evaluated to ensure peace and safety. that, and boop, once you hit mistrust between police and 15%, you're in trouble, once you citizens, however, breaks down collaboration. hit 25%, we want you to it impedes the sharing of information, and it leads to terminate and go away, that less effective policing. this is dangerous for everyone, system doesn't fundamentally for residents and officers work with a system trying to alike. the justice department is create adaptable weapons systems committed to supporting state over time. and local law enforcement and to you can't take it to the other strengthening local communities through funding for more extreme where there's no officers and vital equipment discipline or restraint. through training and research but we need to capture those and at times through the systems designed and meant to be investigation of misconduct. highly adaptable to a different let no one mistake this. the overwhelming majority of approach. another key enabler is funding women and men who police our streets do their jobs with flexibility. i know that was mentioned by honor, pride, and distinction. other speakers, by john. they are driven to the police i always agree with john, i academy out of a commitment to didn't hear his remarks but i'm public service and a desire to
make an impact in their sure i can associate myself with them because he always the communities and as several recent assassinations of police speaks brilliantly and we agree officers remind us, they do this all at considerable risk to on the sources of funding, and themselves. being able to react in realtime and not have to wait for an moroverthe vast majority of law enforcement agencies police appropriation and not have to their communities professionally wait until an urgent need comes and successfully and within the bounds of the law. along. as i mentioned, the commercial as congress has recognized, item provisions in the however, there are times when the federal government has a role to play in protecting legislation just passed, there american's constitutional is an important concept that the rights. the civil rights division has bill introduces or resdrusz long-standing authority to about nondevelopmental items. investigate individual officers for criminal violations of constitutional rights. i don't mean to offend jack, i and in carrying out this mandate, we are committed to impartial, fact-driven investigations. this means pursuing criminal see he's here. charges when the evidence the end game is not just to be commercial or support supports them and closing cases commercialism. when they do not. it's about leveraging the best that's out there, affordability, in addition, congress in 1994 and being able to take access charged the division with the responsibility to investigate law enforcement agencies for a technologies that were developed on somebody else's dime, which is always a nice thing if you pattern or practice of conduct can do it. so the bill takes place a step that violates the constitution or federal statutes and to towards recognizing it's really develop remedies to eliminate
the nondevelopmental aspect and such misconduct where it is found. the affordability aspect that's during the last 20 years we have incorporated lessened learned what's important, not into our work and continually strived to achieve necessarily whether something was sold more than 50% of the constitutional policing and promote public safety in the time to the customer. most effective and collaborative we have to think through how to define that in way our manner possible. as part of these civil contracting officers can embrace investigations we speak directly and understand in the years with line officers and learn coming. i'm probably getting close to the end of my time. firsthand what challenges they face in their jobs and on the along those lines, obviously the streets and what changes they move towards open systems think are necessary. they report often a lack of adequate support, training, and approaches is highly in accord with what i've been trying to even equipment to keep say about wanting to acquire themselves and their communities safe. and the truth is, really, that adaptable systems. we ask more of our police officers than anyone can that's an important initiative. reasonably expect. it's always fascinating to me daily they encounter people in that the service differences, crisis, people struggling with we've been talking to the air mental illness, alcohol and drug force and the nature about how addiction, anger management they approach open systems. they approach it exactly problems, all social problems that they never envisioned opposite, which is perhaps the most predictable thing in the consuming up so much of their time. in pursuing remedies, then, we world. air force has more of a top down aim to ensure that officers receive the equipment, the approach, navy more of an inside out approach. tools, the specialized training i even crossed metaphors when i that they need to do their jobs consistent with the constitution tried to compare the two, and the law.
because they're so different. and we also strive to provide them with critically important but interestingly enough, they professional support to cope assert or at least i should say with the stress and trauma that they encounter on the job. the air force asserted, that the the remedies that we seek two approaches really get you to clearer policy, modernized data the same place, and they are systems, better training, closer compatible. hopefully, knock on wood, that's supervision, fairer account act mechanisms and more positive true, because at the end of the community engagement are day, if mission systems are substantially informed by the input of policing experts and fundamentally disaligned with the work of professional police the navy's, that's going to be organizations such as the police bad for industry. executive research forum, the international association of chiefs of police, and the major that's an issue we really need to explore going forward, that city chiefs association. and i routinely engage with these groups and others such as we want to embrace open systems. the fraternal order of police, i think it's a key to where we need to go. the national association of but it also needs to be police organizations, and the something that industry has national sheriffs association to bought into and not being ensure that we take into account their expertise and their experiences. whipsawed between various and informed by these services and various parts of the department of defense. perspective and the perspectives of the community, the civil that ties into intellectual rights divisions reform property, a key issue both in agreements are helping to reduce terms of traditional history and unnecessary force, ensure very much for nontraditional history, that is sometimes biased-free policing and enhance captured with the phrase public safety efforts and
"silicon valley," i don't i strengthen the relationships between police departments and the communities they serve. from portland, oregon, to east think it's only that but is all haven, connecticut, from seattle over the country, particularly to missoula, we are seeing companies that haven't worked increasing trust. with dod in the past. thank you for being able to the last thing i want to touch discuss this during this very on, although i can't dig too critical moment. i look forward to answering your deep into it in the given time, questions. >> thank you, ms. gupta. mr. davis? >> thank you, senator. but it's this idea that our good afternoon, chairman cruz, friend and colleague from great ranking member coons, and distinguished members of the britain brought up about committee. thank you for this opportunity to discuss the many ways in acquisition services. which the department of justice is providing valuable support it's been controversial in our and resources to the nation's system, controversial in the united states. 800,000 law enforcement officers you can wander off into the "l" and the more than 16,000 local, word of leasing, it can get very state, and triball police agencies and sheriff's offices messy. there is potential there. across the country. one of the more remarkable i come to you today not just as things that's happened is we've the director of the community had a major new entrant in the most unlikely the spaces, which oriented polices services also is space launch. i don't take sides, who is the known as cops. better competitor in that i served 20 years in the oakland competition. but the fact that there is a police department rising to the
competition is fairly rank of captain and close to remarkable, and something sort nine years as police chief for of new and different under the the city of east palo alto, sun, which you don't get a lot, particularly in washington. but it's really in a lot of ways california. for me, senators, the decision to become a cop was an easy one, enabled by acquisition through i simply followed my father's services approach. space launch as a service rather footsteps who served 25 years in than -- and nasa really the philadelphia police department. committing to that approach, i can tell you as a 30-year, really made that new entrant second-generation cop there is no greater or noble profession possible, gave it a foothold than policing. i can also tell you without that could be gotten hold of and hesitation that the men and women who answer this calling are truly america's finest. has gotten us to a place where i you can imagine the great satisfaction it leads me to lead think this week proposals are the cops office and to work for due for the first national the justice department an agency security launch that's been competed in a very long time, that provides tremendous support to local, state and tribal law which is, again, something new under the sun. enforcement. for example, since 2009, cops has awarded over $2 billion in so there's a lot of positive and hiring grants to create and encouraging trends in defense acquisition reform right now. preserve more than 10,000 police i take a little bit of an issue officer and deputy positions and nearly 2,600 law enforcement with some of -- if you will, the agencies across this country. rhetoric that's out there about for some agencies providing how the system is getting funding for just one officer may mean the difference in having a full shift and making officers progressively worse. it's not true. if you dig down into the have sufficient cover and numbers, the last several years, safety. cops also supports the
cost growth has not been development of effective crime-fighting initiatives. occurring. i don't think our performance as a former police chief i have may be quite as good as what you've been enjoying in great implemented several which has contributed to dramatic britain in the last ten years, reductions of murders in my city which was one dubbed the murder capital of the ujs. but there has been improvement. over the past 20 years c.o.p.s. it's not a continuously upward explosion, as greg was saying, has provided training to over of cost growth. 7800 officers and deputies and we are making progress. and there's some really provides valuable research releasing publications on a wide encouraging -- we use the word range of issues from homeland "green shoots" happening. we need to stick with it. we need to keep the dialogue security to enhances officer going and keep working together safety and wellness. on it. i would just close by saying i the publications are extremely think what is also most critical to the field because as you know most agencies have fewer than 50 officers and do encouraging and a grounds for optimistic is there is priority not have the capacity to conduct the research on their own. on defense acquisition reform in just last month we released two the congress, in the valuable research reports one administration, in the broader defense community, and in the addressing ambush attacks against police and another press. so i think keeping the effort presenting the model for protecting the physical and going and keeping everyone psychological health of police talking together and working officers. these reports will enhance together is where we need to be. officer safety and save lives. thank you. [ applause ] through the executive session we bring together the best and brightest minds in the field to >> we appreciate you coming. tackle on issues such as crime good to see you. and violence, preventing violent
our next speaker is christine extremism and handling mass casualty event and use of force fox, the assistant director for policy and analysis at johns and officer safety. the information gleaned is then hopkins university's applied distributed to the field. another way in which we help the physics lab. field is through the she's the former acting collaborative forerim initiative. they law enforcement agencies' secretary of defense in 2013 and requests we examine key operational errors in the agency 2014, and has tremendous and such as training and internal excellent experience in this area. investigations and racial we're looking forward to your remarks. profiling and provide recommendations that we believe will enhance community trust and public safety. as was mentioned at the >> thank you very much. introduction the las vegas police department was the first i think everybody in this room to complete this process and we knows how important this topic now have collaborative reform is at this time in our history. efforts under way in spokane, so i really appreciate the philadelphia, st. louis county, opportunity to be a part of the salinas, and fayetteville with the latest coming last week from the milwaukee police chief. lexington institute series on this voluntary process has this topic. as is clear from the talks received support from the civil today, everyone in this room rights division and my esteemed also knows how many times we have tackled the topic of colleague next to me. it is considered in some cases a defense acquisition reform. viable option when appropriate and of course we will continue over a pattern and practice investigation. to do so.
i think while we have conceived, through our grants c.o.p.s. supports the major law designed, fielded amazing enforcement organizations in capabilities, i think it's pretty clear that we also need addressing key challenges facing to evolve. law enforcement ranging from the now, as others have suggested use of force to animal cruelty today, i'm in the camp that and leadership development and mentoring and also safety and suggests everything doesn't need wellness. we also fund a critical response for technical assistance program to evolve. ships and planes and large that offers immediate real-time armored vehicles, they need to assistance to agencies dealing be developed carefully. with major public safety incidences and crisis. they need to be tested. for example, within days of the start of the mass demonstrations and they need to be procured with rigorous processes. in ferguson, cops was able to we need to be sure they work. connect regional police leaders and yes, sustainment matters, i with police executives with vast couldn't agree more. experience in dealing with and while it's not very popular similar issues. we have provided support to to say it these days, i nearly a dozen agencies at their personally think that oversight is indeed necessary for those request and will continue to do so, and the lessons learned are processes. now, i'm not saying it can't be shared with the over 16,000 law approved. i hope everybody wrote down ken enformsment agencies throughout the united states. miller's list because i thought this year the c.o.p.s. office it was spot on. those are exactly the categories of the things we ought to keep provi hard working on, to try to make provided administrative support to the president's task force on them better, to make them 21st century policing a task support that process more force comprised of law efficiently and effectively for enforcement and community leaders to help agencies build
what we need to do. trust and advance public safety. we can't throw that process out. while policing is primarily a local issue it is clear the at the same time, it's pretty federal government has a clear we need new ways to critical role to play in helping respond to the pressure on our our law enforcement agencies to technological edge that i think we're all feeling. the world has changed. police in the 21st century, the technology has changed. times have changed. department of justice has made supporting law enforcement one of the administration's top and we need to be thinking about priorities. as a career police officer, i that, in addition to the way we think about evolving and know first hand just how important this support is and i improving our acquisition process for those major weapons can say without hesitation that the men and women of the justice systems. in today's dod budget and department make this their throughout the entire downturn, priority every day. there is an attempt to protect thank you, senators, and i look forward to your questions. to the degree possible the s&t >> thank you very much, both of you, for coming and testifying here today. and r&d investments. on october 13th, i sent a letter the truth is we won't be to the attorney general. fielding new programs that requesting some basic aren't currently designed or in information about both the the process anytime soon. closed and the ongoing civil we also face many new threats rights division investigations of state and local law from our potential adversaries and across a very broad spectrum enforcement agencies, including municipal police departments. of capabilities. so i think the question is, how yesterday, monday november 16th,
do we develop capabilities the department of justice across that broad spectrum with responded to that letter. no money and no time? and without objection, i will move both the letter and the and that really requires us to response into the record. in response to our questions on think about at least part of the this topic, the department of justice listed 16 state and acquisition process, i submit to you, very differently. local law enforcement agencies i think we need new concepts for that have had investigations those technologies that maybe opened against them since january 1st, 2011, those don't need to last for 30 years or that don't need the kind of agencies are the albuquerque complex development associated police department, the baltimore with planes and ships and police department, the cleveland armored vehicles. division of police, the colorado at apl, we're working on some city/hildale, arizona, marshals concepts like this. i'm going to throw them out office, the louisiana sheriff's today. they are ideas, not plans. office, the ferguson police they aren't the solution, they department, the los angeles sheriff's department, the are a solution. meridian, mississippi, police i want to offer them to you as the kind of thinking i hope we can be doing together as a department, the miami police community, as we think about department, the missoula county attorney's office, the missoula challenges in this sort of new world. so the first one we're working police department, the newark on is a concept we're calling police department, the portland tech on the shelf. to understand this concept, i police department -- bureau, the need to ask you guys to think about a movie. seattle police department, the i want you to think about university of montana office of "batman." don't tell me you haven't seen public safety and the louisiana
it. i know many of you have. police department. i want you to think about the the letter also mentions that scene where bruce wayne goes nine of these 16 investigations down in wayne enterprise to meet have been closed via consent lucius fox. decree or settlements while lucius is showing him around to seven remain open. all of the military prototypes are there any additional open that they developed at wayne enterprises that the military in investigation against state or the end didn't pick up and local law enforcement agencies field. bruce wayne looks around and currently in the civil rights division? what does he see? he sees an entirely new set of applications for those very >> no. technologies. and he goes around and picks out the ones that we listed are the ones that are actively ongoing. the ones that he wants and asks >> so, there are no additional that they be painted black, investigations that are open? okay? >> no. not to my knowledge. what if we in the national security world and dod, had a >> i want to turn for a moment basement? what if in that basement we had prototypes, not thinks on a to a case that has become known shelf that were gathering dust, as the danziger bridge case. but that were living, breathing i suspect it's a case you're prototypes that we pulled off quite familiar with. the shelf, that we maintained, >> i'm familiar with it, yes, that we upgraded. and i think critically senator. >> can you summarize for this committee the department's importantly, that we deployed conduct in the danziger bridge and tested through experiments and exercises with the operating case?
forces, such that the operating >> certainly, senator. and first, thank you for the forces could evolve their con question. the danziger bridge case ops as our technology developed. and what if those technologies involved significant prosecutorial misconduct that was found by the office of could continue to advance over professional responsibility at time even though they would not the justice department of two be procured in large numbers, at assistant united states least not right away? attorneys who ultimately have now left the department. and it is a case that is now, at some point hopefully, currently in ongoing litigation because we start making sensible and, therefore, i'm not able to comment that much more in-depth decisions about what our about the matter. national security needs really but it is a matter that are and not in response to some obviously came to my attention terrible crisis, the defense budget will be set to a level we as soon as i came into the building. can once again forward to start >> you know, i will note this fielding new capabilities. began as an investigation to a now envision that future world shooting that occurred in louisiana in the wake of where we have our basement, and hurricane katrina. now we go to the basement and we but it has now produced two know exactly which prototypes to lengthy judicial opinions pull out and start fielding, detailing what has been because we've tested them, we described as a widespread pattern of misconduct by the know that they're updated, we u.s. department of justice. know that the operators are waiting for them, and the operators have told us which both the u.s. district court for
ones of those things in our the eastern district of basement are the most important louisiana and the fifth circuit because we have been federal court of appeals have had the chance to review -- experimenting with them, and we start producing them. review the facts underlying this case. if we could do that, we would save back the time that we're district judge kurt englehart losing today by not being able wrote a 129-page opinion to do it, because we have so many constraints on our budget and our system. chronicling what can be okay. so that's one idea. described as an unprecedented now, what if we were to couple pattern of wrongdoing by the that idea with advances in a department of justice. without objection, i'm going to enter it into the report both the district court opinion and additive manufacturing, another the fifth circuit opinion in that case. the district court found that key attorneys in the u.s. area of technology that's going at this incredible rate. so now you marry our prototypes attorneys office for the eastern district of louisiana and the civil rights division were in the basement with this idea that they could in the future be repeatedly posting online comments against the police produced on demand. i think that would be a marparam officers who they were seeking to prosecute. they were doing so anonymously shift, right? now we could save a lot of money from having to have a stockpile of things. and we could provide them when under pseudonyms trying to stoke
and where they need needed, efficiently and effectively, up public anger and resentment production on demand. at these police officers okay. as i said, are these the agitating the potential jury solutions? no, of course not. pool. these are ideas. one of these attorneys who was but my point of offering them to you today is to suggest that as posting these anti-police online comments as i understand it was we think about defense acquisition reform, we a civil rights division attorney understand, as ken so well said, there's only so many levers named carla dubinski. there. we know what they are, we know her conduct at the department of how to work on them, and justice was particularly frankly, we produce pretty awesome stuff through it. astonishing given that her and we need to continue to official responsibility was she produce those things. was assigned to prevent the and we need to continue to make that system efficient. but inching away on defense defendant police officers from having their public reputations acquisition reform, i'm not sure it's going to propel us into smeared during the legal process. this new world where we need new it is more than a little game changing capabilities, astonishing that the lawyer maybe that don't last for 30 years, but that give our charged with preventing the police officers from having operators that technological their reputations smeared would be going online with an edge applicable in today's anonymous pseudonym smearing the world. i thank you for the opportunity reputation she was charged to protect.
to participate in this important topic. so thank you. [ applause ] is that conduct of which the department is proud? >> senator, i share your view >> i heard that dr. la plant is about the seriousness with which in the room. employee misconduct has to be is he here? very good. thank you. thank you for coming. taken at the justice department. our next speaker is dr. william and my understanding is that in light of the facts that emerged la plant. that the department's office of if you're ready. >> i'm always ready. professional responsibility >> i figured you might be. conducted a thorough review of all three of the individuals of assistant secretary of the air force for acquisition. which you speak and concluded dr. la plant has more than 29 that two of the members of the years of experience in defense united states attorney's office technology including positions at johns hopkins university. had indeed engaged in and he has been a member of the misconduct, but concluded after reviewing miss dubinski's which defense science board as well. sir, thank you so much for coming up. were ill-advised and inappr appreciate it. inappropriate comments, that >> i was told i was the 16th of those did not rise to the level of misconduct. the civil rights division then reviewed the facts and 16 speakers. circumstances pursuant to the i thought, man, it takes you law that governs our five minutes just to get through disciplinary procedures and processes and took appropriate introductions. certainly my introductions action in light of that. today's a long time. >> i will note that the fifth circuit described the department anyway. hi, everybody. i'm not going to talk about acquisition reform, unless you of justice's conduct as what
ask me to. could only be described as a, i just got back from the do you quote, online 21st century b -- the dubai air show. carnival atmosphere -- that's a federal court of appeals describing the department of justice. it went on to state that it was, quote, beyond dispute that, let me tell you what's going on. the first thing that's going on quote, three supervisory-level is u.s. stuff is in incredible prosecutors committed misconduct high demand overseas. people are desperate. in connection with the danziger they're desperate for our stuff. bridge prosecution. do i understand correctly that it's taking way too long to get it to them. we tell them, the good news is ms. dubinski remains with the it used to be a very short department as a trial lawyer in conversation, it was, oh, you want that? the civil rights division? no. we used to have very efficient, >> she remains with the civil short conversations. rights division. now we have very inefficient, the office of professional long conversations, like "we'll responsibility did conduct a thorough review of all three try." it's a laborious process that employees and found that ms. goes across multiple agencies. dubinski's actions, while as i we need to do something about it, okay? said inappropriate and it's urgent. it's urgent for the following ill-advised, did not constitute reasons. number one is, i said, you know, misconduct unlike the other two individuals. in washington, our acquisition
program is broken, we can't do >> well, it seems both a federal anything right, everything's bad, blah blah blah. district court and the federal court of appeals disagree with overseas it's like, you guys have the best stuff, it works, the department in that regard. senator coons. you help us sustain it, there's >> thank you, chairman cruz. nobody else like you. let me just take us back if i could to the beginning of your we say, will you tell testimony, ms. gupta, in which washington? because they don't believe it. you began by observing that of on the other hand, the urgency the 800,000 law enforcement is right now they're fighting wars. professionals in this country -- the saudis and the united arab emirates, their number one issue i think it is roughly 18,000 agencies at the state, local, right now is fighting tin yemen. and tribal level, the overwhelming majority of law enforcement officers are honorable, dedicated and carry they're having issues of isr. out their public safety duties on the good side, the uae says, with exceptional quality and we wouldn't be able to do what service. in fact, as the chairman we're doing if it wasn't being reviewed, you have i think on associated with the united states air force for the last average had three cases per year several decades. by the way, they're doing the since 2011 and have only seven whole job themselves. we're helping them a little bit open today. with isr and tanker support. they have their own tankers. most of their tankers are their out of 18,000 agencies. own. most of the isrs are their own. they're doing their own uav how many staff attorneys are
there in the united states find, their own munitions, their department of justice? pilots have all been trained by how many attorneys are serving the whole country as part of the us. they're doing an incredible job, u.s. department of justice? okay? but here's the thing. >> as part of the entire they need more. department of justice there's and guess who is over there over 100,000 professionals. selling stuff? >> out of 100,000 professionals, oh, i don't know, a place called china. guess how many uavs china is how many are working for the selling over there. you think china has an civil rights division roughly? >> just under about 700. interagency process like ours to >> about 700. supply a uav? i will agree with you and with the chairman, that the conduct how about armed uav, do you of the prosecutors in the think china has a policy for danziger bridge case was absolutely outrageous. them? it's like we've got the apple conduct unbecoming, inappropriate, and there, of store. apple wins its customers with course, sanctions taken by the office of professional responsibility. not just its products but its but it is no more accurate to customer service. describe the entire department you know, my daughter is going of justice or the entire civil to be an apple person for life because of how they've treated rights division as being out of her. control or outrageous or engaged right next to the apple store, which has the long line outside in misconduct than it is to it, is another store that has incorrectly smear the entire law opened up and is selling apple enforcement community nationally because of a few, isolated products, they're not really apple products but they instances of misconduct. certainly look at it. in fact, ms. gupta, i've been i should show you the picture on my phone that i took of some struck by the depth of your
support from national law enforcement organizations. some of this was reported in a displays in dubai of an m-39. july 15th article in "usa today" with the headline "department of justice police unions finding the j-31, i walked up to the common ground." it notes your nearly daily model of it, other than the two contact with the leadership of the baltimore police during the engines, it's an f-35. crisis that occurred. is it really an f-35? and i'd like to enter that probably not, of course. they're doing the same thing is union -- excuse me, that article from "usa today" for the hearing record. >> without objection. uavs. our partners are saying, you >> i think there also was a know what, at least if i buy that stuff, even if it doesn't recent letter addressed to you from the executive director of work, if it works a third of the time compared to your stuff, at the major cities chiefs least i have something. association darryl steveges that how much of that is bluster, i states, quote, your efforts to don't know. reach out to law enforcement to our industry partners are saying the same thing. enhance communications and they're saying, we had one establish a collaborative relationship has been noticed and has made a real difference, group, i met yesterday, whatever time zone i'm in now, with a unquote. bunch of mid-level suppliers at could you just discuss your commitment to working respectfully and collaboratively with our nation's police and who dubai. one told me we're having to your work in upholding constitutional rights actually leads to better policing, safer manufacture and do things overseas. for law enforcement officers and this is a problem, guys. for the community and enhances we need to fix this. public safety?
it's urgent because we have to >> thank you, senator. ask ourselves, what do we i'd be happy to. warrant the middle east to look you know, ever since i came into the justice department it has like ten years from now in terms been very important to me to of military capability? reach out and very often and to what capability do we want all our allies and partners have engage with law enforcement, that we're going to have to with chiefs from around the fight with? do we want them to use link 16? country, with union leaders, yes. do we want them to use things with police officers, as well as more advanced than link 16? with civil rights and community yes. do we want them to be flying groups, in part because we are all in this time together. predators or mq-9 as opposed to really trying to assess some of the hard questions about how to build trust because in too many china? communities around the country yes. it's as urgent an issue as anything else. where there is frayed trust, if you want to put it under the where the community simply does acquisition reform umbrella, not have the confidence of law you're welcome to do it. enforcement, frankly it puts but i think it's imperative. officers lives at risk and it i was struck by it. creates -- it undermines public again, those guys are at war. safety. and our work at the civil rights this is existential for them. division to advance effective we talked in bilats with many of constitutional policing actually advances public safety. the countries over there, these things are not at odds. including jordan, obviously they are critically important. saudi arabia, united arab when the community trusts the emirates, all the way around, police, they are partners in and heard the same thing from everybody. some of them are more polite providing information to solve than others. and prevent crimes. some are a little more direct. we sat down with industry. they serve as witnesses in trials. industry said the same thing.
and, of course, officers' lives i said, well, i'm going back to washington to talk about one of are much more likely to be these acquisition reform things. enhanced and protected and their so this is something we need jobs made easier when they have help, we need help in educating the trust of the community. so, my outreach really is the congress, we need help because i think frankly a lot of educating the media. people in law enforcement right we have to educate ourselves. now as well as community leaders make no mistake, there's a are kind of working together to reason that it's hard for us to address and really understand how to rebuild trust where that sell our products overseas, that has eroded because it is so we make it hard, because we are critical to public safety. concerned about keeping our best >> thank you, ms. gupta. if i might, chief davis, thank you for your 20 years of service technology for us. that's understandable. with the oakland police and it's kind of, once you make department and your nine years with east palo alto. the decision once to let technology out, you can't undo can you also discuss how the decision. i got that. mistrust hurts public safety and but here's the thing. we better be consistent and we describe the efforts that the department is making, that the better be transparent, because c.o.p.s. program is making to it's also the uncertainty that's address this issue and to killing us. if you're entering a process to improve law enforcement officer try to get approval of something that you may note have gotten safety and public safety. and then, last, if you'd just approval for for a year and a comment on how officers and police chiefs and leaders you half, and you're sitting there saying, i'm in line at the apple know around the country are reacting to the idea of a store, and i look next to me, so-called ferguson effect or a there's no line there, it's half war on police.
price, i know the stuff sucks, >> thank you -- excuse me, thank but maybe i can go over there you, senator, for the question. to start with the first question and get lucky. with regards to trust i think it that's the situation we're in would be fair to say that trust right now. so we need your help. is the foundation of public that's what i wanted to say. safety, as ms. gupta has said, i said i wouldn't talk about acquisition reform. you really cannot achieve are you taking questions? effective and sustaining crime no? reduction and enhance public okay. good. >> we can take one or two safety or even national security questions. if you don't have the trust of >> whatever you want to do. acquisition reform. the community, so i think as a all good. former police chief your focus all good. you know, house bill is good, on building trust is your number one crime reduction tool. senate bill good, nda is good. people testify, they give you information. let's do more. they support you. let's do more. when there's trust. you know, it's not rocket so, we know that is very science. we know what we need to do. important. i think generally where the people in this room know what field is right now the field is you need to do to do acquisition acknowledging and recognizing that there is strain within right. hold requirements firm. set the program up right. communities, many communities, not all, and the police, and have a robust industrial base. that we need to do something to have a strong government team. strengthen it. so, there's a lot of focus, incentivize industry for the right things. don't change things left and senator, from local police right. don't go chasing like a squirrel chiefs and union leaders to focus on rebuilding that trust every new technology or fad that because it makes everyone's job comes along. rules don't change. easier. with regard to the so-called ferguson effect, i think the that's what it means. we are being successful, despite opening statements both senator cruz and yourself made really
what you read. i'm actually a data guy. answers it best. first, that there really is who you know, the plural of anecdote data to suggest that there is a ferguson effect and that somehow is not data. that's linked to any increase in crime in certain cities, because we know there are some cities and data says, in the air force, where there's an increase. ther that our prices, our costs, we also know there are cities where there are decreases so we every year continue as a net to do need to find out and i think come down. director comey was head on about i'm sorry that that's what the making sure we can find out the data says, but it says that. data and to have this do we have programs going up in conversation. but i think we need to be very cost? yes, we do. cautious and i would just really be -- i'm concerned and would be ocx is going up in cost. very cautious that in having courtney will write about that. this discussion, senator, that there's a ground control station we're not suggesting that the for gps. brave men and women who serve in on net effect, the prices and law enforcement -- and this is costs are coming down. based on my 30 years -- are somehow scared, which is the our programs, kpps, you know, words i've heard people say, reluctant or even suggest that for a-cat ones, are 95%. they're cowards that won't do their job because they're afraid of public scrutiny. public scrutiny is not a negative, it's the foundation of we need to deliver things faster a democratic society. because our development the officers want what we want timelines are too long. and everyone wants which is fairness, consistency and they that's the truth, guys. there's not too much more too it than that. want to be able to recognize the if you want to help us with acquisition, help us focus on challenges of their job. and so i reject any notion that the right things. focus on speed.
would suggest the officers are do things faster. we can't do speed at the expense choosing not to do their job, of competition. that they're reluctant to that's one thing you have to remember. sometimes the fastest -- the protect many t american people. i think all evidence is to the contrary. easy button is to go sole with that being said, senator, we have to acknowledge this is a source. you can do something really fast very tough time to be a cop. going sole source. but necessarily, you want to and with intense scrutiny, with keep competition, so you have to social media and videotaping clearly it's adding to the weigh that. we want to do commercial. stress of being a cop. commercial's great. but remember, if we're buying it but these new stresses are not an effect, they're going to be commercial, so can everybody the challenge of policing in the 21st century and i think this else. field is up to it. so at some point you don't buy i think the chiefs and i around everything commercial, because the country and law enforcement you don't want our stuff to be officers are up to the challenge available commercial. and i think they're working the the stuff that makes sense to communities to do exactly that. buy commercial, buy it >> thank you, chief. commercial. what's the problem, then? thank you for your testimony. >> thank you. the problem is we can't decide senator lee? and we have to decide, as a >> thank you, mr. chairman. ms. gupta, i'd like that ask you society, as a country, what's more important to us, finding the next $700 hammer, which about an issue that is likely to come up within your division at there's always the pursuit of the department of justice, the it, as there should be, versus civil rights division. make buying commercial actually as you're probably aware, practical. and we all in our lives have earlier this month the u.s. accidentally paid too much for something. department of education maybe not accidentally, concluded that township school district 211 located in
purposely. i tell the story, about a month palatine, illinois, violated ago, i have a 2011 pilot. title ix when it prohibited a i took it into the dealer, in transgender student identifying the two hours i have to do everything in my life, saturday as a girl to change and shower morning from 9 to 11, i have to get my haircut and all that in the girl's locker room at the stuff in a two-hour block. public school that she attends the dealer did it, he said, your without restrictions. battery is on its last legs. i go, i know, i know, it's fine, now the school and the school district had permitted this i've got to go. student to participate on the driving home from work, pull over to get something, do some girls' sports teams and to use the girls' restrooms at the shopping, get back in the car, doesn't start. school, hour to accommodate the crap. the dealer was right. i get it jumped, i get it home. student's request to use the girl's locker room, the school and i go, how can i get the battery fixed, i have to go on a sought the student toend privac. trip tomorrow morning at 6, i've got to be doing this, i've got this, i've got a busy job. according to the u.s. department triple a will come and bring a of education in this letter dated november 2 of this year, battery. i told my wife, i'll have them two weeks ago yesterday, do it. requiring the transgender okay. student to use private changing i called them up. and showering facilities they came buy. i talked to him about the violated the student's rights redskins, he was a good guy, he because it resulted in put my battery in. differential treatment of a
i don't remember how much it was, i think it was $150, way transgender student. even the plan to have the student change behind privacy too much. curtains in the girls' locker i didn't care because i got the thing done. room would apparently not be i couldn't do that in my job. sufficient according to the in this job, i would have an ig department of education in this chasing me. we have to decide when we're letter issued on november 2 because requiring only talking about commercial, you know, what are we willing to transgender students and not all students to change behind a accept as a society. i'll say one other thing, then i'll stop. curtain, according to this i'm a big fan, as a geek, of letter, amounts to differential what people like elon musk are treatment based on a sex-based doing. he's one of our potential suppliers. consideration and would i'm just talking about what he's doing with his different according to the department of companies, right? education therefore constitute a violation of title ix. most geeks kind of follow what so i've got a question for you. people like elon musk are doing. is this also the view of the i always ask people, what's he civil rights division of the u.s. department of justice? trying to do, landing that first is it the view of your division, stage on a barge? he's trying to close the the civil rights division, that business case to go to mars, to requiring a transgender student join matt damon. to change and shower behind a okay. curtain while they're in a that's good. i know people who are much locker room of the opposite smarter than me in space who biological gender that asking don't believe it will work, them do even that would amount either it won't work technically to a violation of title ix. or the business case won't close. but he's doing it anyway. >> senator, thank you for the
how many times did he try to question and i can say at the land this thing on the barge? moment that the justice department has not taken a fixed byron? i think it's four. position on this matter. and he puts a tweet out right and i can't get into internal afterwards, and if it doesn't work, he's 0 for 4, he says deliberations but we are aware of the matter and are in conversation about it. rockets are tricky things. >> okay. as i'm sure you're aware, if the everybody loves it. do i think he will pull it off? school district doesn't conform i absolutely do. now, imagine for a second, if this to this standard the department of education may well that was the united states refer this case to your divis n government, let's take the part of the department of defense that is supposed to be the most far out reaching, way ahead, division. have you or anyone else in the take risk part, darpa. civil rights department of if it was darpa, they would have tried it twice and quietly said justice been in contact with the department of education? we're stopping it, just like >> we are aware that could happen, it's why we are right now in conversation about this hypersonic glide vehicle, same issue. but we haven't taken any thing. it would not have been considered a success. position on it and i am not it would have been considered a failure. in the air force, ig would ask aware with direct communications who is held accountable for it with the department of education and the headline would be the but there are a lot of business case is a crazy idea. deliberations happening on these various issues. should we be doing things like >> so you have been consulted on that in the government? it? >> we are aware that the
department of education filed no, i think there are things in that matter and that it very the government that are too well could be headed over to the risky for us to do. i'm saying our attitude, we have to check it. just like we have to check the justice department. attitude about the car battery. >> will the department of justice seek enforcement of you know, we say we want title ix on this issue if the commercial. school district at issue doesn't we say we want risk taking. conform to the demands of the letter issued on november 2 by we don't behave that way. some of the same people and same the department of education? >> unfortunately, i'm not able institutions that say that on monday, on tuesday are blasting to comment on that because we haven't made any decisions. because of some commercial price >> based on my description of went up, you know. so that's a thought i would like what happened and based on what to leave you with, is that, you know about this instance, do yeah, acquisition reform is you think the u.s. department of great, commercial is great, education correctly concluded let's do it, let's do other that it's against the law for transactional authority stuff. the school district to say that we're trying all that stuff. that's great. a transgender student who but let's also remind ourselves what's important. colin? identifies as female but was i'll stop. that was not prepared. i made it up on the plane. born male needs to shower and change behind a curtain? >> how are you going to change do you agree with that assessment that that would the system, given the violate federal law? >> senator, it would be congressional requirements, inappropriate for me to comment given the enormous number of on this given that the justice department has not yet made its
position known. regulations? >> are you talking within the context of fms or just in >> okay. i -- i want to make clear that i general? >> i assume you're talking find that surprising. i find it a little stunning that largely about fns. >> my first half of my talk was you can't right now sit here and tell me that it wouldn't be a on fns. you're asking about that. this is not going to be a good answer to the question. somebody asked this at the problem. now, i've got a 14-year-old secretary, when she had a press conference at dubai, a reporter daughter, she's in junior high. and if what you're telling me is asked, would you need somebody even at the white house to that it's too close to call, coordinate this? such that if a transgender that's -- you know, we're talking about a whole of student at her school who government issue here. we've got the state department identifies as female but was involved. we've got commerce. we've got multiple parts of the born male would have to be able to shower and use the locker department of defense, for reasons you can understand when room in the girls' locker room it's explained to you. but the net effect of all of it just like any other girl without is very frustrating. being asked to use a privacy now, we can decide as a country curtain or anything like that, that it's okay. if you can't tell me that that i'm not kidding when i say this. doesn't violate the law then we'll let the market play out. what you're telling she that her if the chinese -- i'm not principal could and should be expected to be hauled into court picking on the chinese because i'm trying to scare everybody, for making that determination on a local basis based on the needs it's what they're talking about there. of that school.
pick another country, that's if you can't tell me that, i think you're going to have a lot fine. but i don't think that's right. i don't think it's right for our of parents who have a lot of industrial base. i don't think it's right for -- questions. a lot of parents of daughters, we don't fight wars by parents of sons who are going to ourselves, guys. wonder why is the department of we fight them with coalitions. justice have to get so mired in i think this is an urgent issue the administration of a school we need to solve. that it's getting into questions like who and under what yes. circumstances someone who was one more question. >> it also has to be friendly. born male but is a transgender >> i like the unfriendly ones. student identifying as female those are the funner ones. must be given full unfettered [ inaudible question ] access to showers lo, locker ro and changing facilities within >> who's changed, do you have the school and i hope you'll follow up on that. any insight? the american people deserve >> i don't know what's changed. clarity on that and if we're i don't know what happened with israel saying the '67 war. going to tart taking away educational resources from local my guess is it almost went to school districts to fight battles like this in court, the president. can we do this without that's money that can't be spent on legitimate educational programs. and they need to be given involvement of the president. discretion so that they can run like gates said, we can do their school districts in the manner they deem fit. mraps, why do we have the thank you, i see my time has
secretary of defense being the program manager? i think we can do this, but can expired. >> thank you, senator lee. we do this without going to the senator durbin. >> thanks, mr. chairman. now, the title of this hearing olymp leadership of the country? is "the war on police, how the because that's why it's going to go. >> i appreciate you coming. [ applause ] federal government undermines state and local law >> mackenzie, are you ready to enforcement." i know there was an effort to come up here? make this a neutral title for our next speaker, mackenzie this hearing but i think it leans a little bit in a engel from the american provocative way. so i asked my staff, take a look enterprise institute, formerly at the actual investigations initiated by the obama had he heritage foundation and administration of police departments. adviser to senator susan collins they came up with the fact that there were some 17,000 of maine. thank you for coming. >> we're getting close to batting up time. departments. i heard senator coons say 18,000 it's probably just about the departments in the united states. right opportunity to actually and under the obama administration they've opened pick up kind of where andrew investigations on 23 police left off and christine fox and departments. about one-tenth of one percent of the police departments across dr. la plant continued. when i survey capitol hill and the united states. and this is being characterized by some as a war on police. where they are today, i know i'd like to ask you ms. gupta we've spoken about the time in and chief davis, isn't it true that many investigations were
requested by local agencies? >> thank you, senator, for your question. that is, indeed, the case. memoriam, before there was a in many of the jurisdictions we ended up going into, they were final conference version, there initially requested and it was only after we conducted a pre m were over 150 acquisition reform provisions alone. what was the focus of the bill preliminary investigation to determine whether there was enough evidence that would merit this year? no surprise to everybody here, our involvement that we get but it was focused on providing involved but that is indeed the case. >> and isn't it true the vast lots of new authorities, personnel, and of course in majorities of investigations, the 23 out of 18,000 police purchasing. some of these won't even take effect for perhaps a year or so. departments were conducted with the cooperation of the jurisdiction and resolved on a and so what i'm here to offer is a sneak peek, a preview of where voluntary basis? >> yes, that's correct. we can expect our friends on the >> some war. authorization committees to go let me ask you about video next year. senator mccain and congressman cameras, if i can. there's going to be testimony in the next panel, chief davis, that video cameras inhibit thornberry, chairman of both committees, have said this was police work and lessen their their opening round but that next year they're going to determination to pursue crime. double down on defense acquisition reform. it's interesting. of course my question is, what when we look at the money that's else is there to do, not being given out by the justice andrew hunter, the expert on department to help local law this. so the focus next year will be enforcement pay for these video
on implementation and oversight. body cameras, in september the those are the key areas of justice department awarded $23 focus. in some regards congress is million in funding for body admitting something rare which cameras under pilot program, $23 they typically do not do, which is the things that are going to million. 73 law enforcement agencies in take effect over the next 12 to 24 months will need to be 32 states, including three in my periodically revisited, updated, state -- chicago, elgin, lake tweaked, and possibly changed, county sheriff -- received funds as they take effect. under this program. one of the biggest ones that we according to the bureau of all know, of course, is the justice assistance, 285 agencies additional authorities provided from 42 states applied for these back to the service chiefs, body-worn camera funds. somewhat. that provision doesn't really take effect for almost a year there wasn't enough money to serve them all. it would have taken more than now, the major defense twice the total amount to pay acquisition portfolio programs for all the body cameras that are basically grandfathered police departments across the under the at&l office for the united states were asking for as next year, give or take. part of their law enforcement. it's still something the many so what is your take, chief 149 other provisions are all davis, from that statistic and going to be enacted and followed your experience in dealing with closely. body cameras? so they want the defense >> thank you, senator, for the department to start using other question and i think the number is actually larger than that. transactions, waiver authorities, new commercial that would be the close to 300 that applied for this specific procurements, et cetera. program versus the thousands
so there are ten areas of that are equipping their acquisition reform that the two officers as we speak that are still looking for assistance to chairmen have said they're going do so. to focus on. what made this program unique, they feel like they've achieved five in this year's the $23 million, senator, is authorization defense bill. and there will be five areas in that it was about working with which they focus on next year. law enforcement, working with i'll give you three as a academia to identify best freebie. if you want the other two, practices, policy implications, you'll have to call me or making sure we have policies something. okay. so -- and what do they believe regarding privacy. so these were more demonstration is not done yet? okay. so the biggest is the elephant sites to help the field in using this technology. in the room. by that i mean literally and now, what you'll hear is for most agency what is i'm hearing from the field is that the figurativel cameras were part of a larger figuratively, which is defense accountability program are very services acquisition reform. the focus is over womeniwhen he positive. we know there's results from rialto, california, where they see 70% reductions in uses of force. we hear stories all over the country where they're reducing uses of force, complaints and i amming -- overwhelmingly on i.t. think what the officers are starting to see even in one of my old agencies in oakland after and in some cases commodities. decades of using them is that it's the overlooked area of the cameras prove what i think everyone at this hearing has largesse that has very little said -- it captures the attention on capitol hill. overwhelming outstanding job it's just not sexy. it's very, very complicated. that the men and women are doing in law enforcement and it clears it's overseen by literally two them more than it ever indicts armies of civilian work forces them. but what it is capturing
at the defense department, both misconduct, it's misconduct that needs to be held to account. and it's the righteous thing to civilian payroll employees and do. >> that's such an important dod federal contracting point because cameras may civilians as well. those two work forces out number capture misconduct but they might also capture the truth of the entire active duty military. the situation, when charges are made against a person, law this is an area -- i can't even enforcement, that are just plain find the word -- in great need wrong and unfair. of scrutiny and review, the people who are purchasing labor. as we're dealing with this new what is labor? world, with dna evidence, people. it's that simple. science behind police work and people performing a service. this hard body of evidence coming out of video cameras that so things like medical, i would agree with you. healthcare, tricare, the it would seem to me most members of law enforcement would feel provision of services they're this body camera will tell a in. construction, not just military construction but other types. true story about what happened when specious and wrongful charges are brought against operations and maintenance of them. so i thank you for that. other infrastructure, existing thank you, mr. chairman. facilities and buildings. even to some extent research and >> thank you, senator durbin. senator sessions? development investments. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and so they will be looking to find what are the best practices in the commercial marketplace. this is a hearing that i think it does not mean everything is going to be applicable. that's not at all what they are important. we need to talk about some of saying. it's simply a review to say what these issues and there is a could be applicable and what perceptions but -- not all
together unjustified -- that might work, must try it if it this civil rights division goes does, what are the allies doing, that's already come up this beyond fair and balanced afternoon, what are our allies treatment but as an agenda. doing that we're not that could also be useful and perhaps that's been a troubling issue relevant. for example, in the united for a number of years, frankly. kingdom, there is the use of your predecessor nominee was sole source noncompetitive contracts. is that a vehicle that dod can rejected for this job, the civil rights division job was use more of, as well. according accord ing to fraternal order of police they wrote a letter noting that number two is information technology acquisition and under his legalship the legal purchases. who is responsible? defense fund for the naacp volunteered their services to who has a hand in that pot? and how do we determine success represent wesley cook, better in terms of the output of i.t. known as mumia abuja mall, our country's most notorious cop killer. enterprises across the largest this nomination can be interpreted only one way, it's a federal agency? thumb in the eye of our nation's then there's another one, the law enforcement officers. front end of the acquisition it demonstrates a lack of regard review, number 3. this is making sure the defense department is using as a or empathy for those who strive customer, as a beneficiary of to serve you and everyone in our congress's love and adoration in nation and keep them safe in our
streets and homes and we believe that law enforcement in minority this regard, some of the things communities need to build even greater bonds of trust and given to it or possibly new processes and procedures. respect yet your civil rights again, if you have already come division under the leadership of up here today, more operational prototyping, more risk reduction the prior officer thomas perez programs. what do these look like, what and roy often has increasingly actually has to change to make built obstacles to this goal it more successful. with this punitive approach toward local law enforcement does the definition of the defense program itself need to change in this regard? agencies is. so now your nomination, you've what about nunn-mccurry changes? been named as acting, is that right? but have not yet been nominated. there are times when we need to sunset even the best intentions. >> that is correct. that leads me to get off my top >> and prior to joining the three of the five to the final department of justice you served as deputy legal director for the sort of point, indicators of american civil liberties union where congress is going to go next year. and director for its center for so the senate armed services committee has been undertaking this 30 years of justice and prior to that you were an attorney for the racial goldwater/nichols reform hearing justice program and prior to that you served as a lawyer for the naacp legal defense and series. once the bill was completely, education fund. essentially a month ago, they so i'd just say that you come launched this review. the intention is to finish it by from a background that indicates
january, certainly before the an aggressiveness in these president's budget, probably even before the new session of cases. congress even begins next year. civil rights division can fulfill an important role. this is an organizational i've seen attorneys -- i've review, but it's also a process review. worked with them in a grand jury and it's certainly an acquisition review, including investigating police and the personnel. it's trying to cover everything. goal -- it nomust be to obtain and it's also trying to look at truth and find out what the real facts are. 30 years later, by most metrics so let's talk about this a bit goldwater/nichols has been a success. there have been unintended consequences. there are certainly things that here. first, plft davmr. davis, i taln need to be rolled back today. and these hearings started with experienced law enforcement of course defense secretary officer in alabama. he said the kind of problems gates. we're seeing and the legal there are a couple of themes identified by the ranking actions that are being taken and the marches and protests about senator, jack reed, and the chairman. what are they trying to get police do with v the tendency to after as part of this effort? there are six enduring cause people, as he said, to principles. one is providing for a more stay under the shea tree and not efficient defense management. the other is enhancing walk the treats like innovation and accountability in community-based policing that defense acquisition.
where are they going, for you advocate. example? so we have some insights from we won't go into the details secretary gates and his hearing. about it but i truly believe community-based policing is a the question i think will remain great thing and police are going to be in dangerous situations, i open, even taking into account where the 2016 bill went, know you'll agree and sometimes finding and striking that right balance, something that i know they'll confront people who are makes some people very happy in violent and they have to be able to defend themselves, do they not? >> yes, sir, they do. here. there were problems when the >> and sometimes that can lead services had their own to misunderstandings and false acquisition authority that led to greater centralization of claims by the criminal against oversight. then there are problems in the the police officer. minds of the chairman and sometimes. >> that is correct, senator. ranging member and the pen do and i will tell you, and i'm you let me swung the other way. sure the esteemed colleague in and so now the other goal is to your state will share this with you, when it comes to the find a better balance between evaluation of those decisions, centralization and the officers are more concerned decentralization. about the decisions within their so as i conclude, i will just local department and local elected leaders and how they're summarize again, this year, new going to be treated for those authorities, new processes, new decisions. so that's always a concern because the officer wants procedures. fairness and wants people to next year it's going to be on implementation and oversight. understand the nuance and the difficulty of being a police. and but about a year, mac will >> i keep thinking of that invite us back and i'll review gilbert and sullivan -- i think how they did. it's ""pirates of penzance," thanks. [ applause ]
"constabulary duties are to be >> our next speaker is greg done, to be done, the policeman's lot is not a happy one." so it's not easy to arrest people and have to make these dalberg, the former senior vice president for washington decisions and put them in the slammer sometimes. operations for lockheed martin. he also is the democratic staff in your speech that you made to director for the house defense appropriations subcommittee with the united states attorneys in former congressman murtha, and new jersey, ms. gupta, you say also the undersecretary of the army in the clinton administration. thank you, greg, for coming. that -- you talk about the looking forward to your remarks. charges made against police and what police say in their own >> i know my rule. defense and conclude there's i think i'm the last speaker. truth in both these i can't repeat anyone. and i have to be short. perspectives. presumably what both sides say and so i'll just start by saying, i have -- i will endorse about the criminal arrest or the remarks of phil jasper and byron callen and a little bit of not. you also close by saying if we would take time to listen, dan in there. that's kind of where i'm at. we'll just leave it at that. really listen why protesters i would like to maybe talk a take the streets, why police little bit about something that officers risk their lives hasn't been talked about yet. everyday we would find that you try to find a topic here. while perspectives may differ, it's very difficult with this esteemed room. and a lot of really good ideas people's aspirations and their values tend to be very similar. and excellent talent in this we all want safe streets, we all
room. i thought i would talk a little want stronger communities, we bit about congress and the all believe in justice. reform efforts there. i'm an old appropriator. i was 20-some years in the this was an article written by committee. and you go back to -- if you find the full committee office roger clegg and hans vans in the capitol, you go look, there's all the hearing records going back from the beginning of pakovsky of the civil rights the committee, which is in the 1800s. the very first hearing that they youth division. and they say we find it hard to imagine that black lives matter had is about a lock and dam, protesters in holy cross chanting "pigs in a blanket, fry whatever it was that the army them like bacon" right after two corps of engineers was building in 18 something, and another canal where, where there was a cost overrun, and they were new york police officers were giving them hell about the cost overruns, we've got to reform assassinat this system. and i think all of you who are involved in acquisition reform, you have full careers ahead of assassinated. you for sure, because it's a do you see the concern that police officers might have about those kind of comments? never-ending -- not a battle. >> i find those kinds of i think it's a continuous comments abhorrent and i think process. also the issues on cost growth that they do a disservice to the and government spending are legions of people, protesters, going to be with us forever. that are raising attention to
it doesn't mean we shuouldn't serious issues around the country. work on it. a couple of people in this room i remember grilling in my time in appropriations. >> i was really referring to we killed a couple of programs. your comments. we weren't happy with a few. sometimes we rewarded them because they were doing good in 2013 while working for the aclu you wrote an op-ed in the work. so, you know, this is not a new "new york times" in which you stated you were elated when you phenomenon that's with us. learned attorney general holder it will be with us forever. had "directed all federal i think if you look at the congressional reform efforts, prosecutors to exercise their discretion toward ending the let's say the modern ones in the relentless warehousing of last 20 years or so, you know, i inmates, the vast majority of whom are minorities in federal kind of have a hard time finding prison for low-level drug crime." real big successes. do you think most of the i think there's nothing against the people at all who were all prisoners are for low-level drug crimes. >> senator, at the -- well-intended. a good example, i won't name >> can you find a low level drug names, a couple of the last crime? there are only 15 in the federal bills started off pretty strong, penitentiary. i understand for simple but by the time the process possession of drugs. ended, with all of the discussion with many of the >> senator, as the head of the people in this room, for civil rights division i enforce instance, and we saw all the civil rights statutes we are given and do not have a say-so
differing viewpoints, just in our sentencing policies at today, it's an incredibly the division. complex substantiate, there are >> well, i'm troubled by your different views on this thing. comments. that's all i'm saying. when congress tries to pull all you want to be the head of the civil rights division? that together and get a rational i don't feel good about that process out of that, frankly i comment. how about this? in the fordham law review in don't think they do a very good 2005 you wrote "we do not have john kerry j criminal justice system whose job. my own view is much of the subjugation of people of color reform we've seen is half good, is contingent upon -- excuse me. half bad, maybe more red tape we do have a criminal justice than anything else, less is good system whose subjugation of people of color is contingent in my view. it gets back to that time is upon individualizing all cases. it is how we have managed to money, which would be my bottom line as well. i think that's really one thing rationalize racism in the criminal justice system." that is not understood by this community and it's not understood by the congress about now as i understand this theory -- and it's been about for some time -- it says you how process and the delays that come from -- and i learned this should not evaluate individual in industry, having teams put cases based on whether or not a person is guilty of that crime together, having subcontractors put together, all engineering or not but some other theory staffs all put together, waiting involving racism. for a process to kind of come do you think a case should be
evaluated simply on the fact through that huge decision whether the person is guilty of the crime or not? cycle. that happens because all these >> senator, at the civil rights steps in that spaghetti chart, and i think we've all seen that division i oversee career prosecutors and lawyers who are committed to investigating the spaghetti chart of the facts and the evidence and going acquisition process. that is huge money. where the law takes them based and by the way, the contractor on that and this is what we are will recoup that money over committed to. >> well, i'm very troubled by that radical statement you made time, because nothing is free in this business. in that article. you go on to say in that article so, you know, to me, what i would like to see is something "critical race lawyering is pretty simple. about transforming business as i talked to my former staff about this, and they roll their initial the criminal justice eyes. i say, look, why do you -- why system. a business that is usually masked as being racially don't you go to the hill, neutral, bias free and just the instead of all these processes crime facts ma'am industry, we you want to invent, how about have to transform that business just saying, mr. secretary, give as usual into a counternarrative us a plan a year from now to cut the time it takes for major about police practices, racial acquisitions by a third. bias and the irrationality of just show us what you'll do with many of our criminal justice that. what would you cut out of the policies." system? do you still adhere to those what kind of savings would you get from that? and leave it up to the experts views?
to actually come up with a >> senator, that was an article i wrote over a decade ago but at the civil rights division as i system that might, you know, really change things. and i think that's really what said i enforce statutes that industry would actually like to conditions has given us to enforce and that is what i do see, if you really got in the and this is what career lawyers back rooms of the industry and prosecutors do at the civil associations and so forth. rights division each and that's the kind of change that everyday. would really wake up the system. >> well, it's clear that police officers all over america are and unfortunately i don't see concerned about the department of justice and i think based on that happening anytime soon. i will say that the spaghetti those writings that the acting chart, as we call it, of the acquisition process, will scare head you now have about law the dickens out of silicon enforcement and police gives them a basis to be concerned. valley, and anybody else who wants to try to get into this >> thank you, senator sessions, game. senator klobuchar. i've had personal discussions in >> thank you very much, mr. my time with industry folks, chairman, senator coons. i served as a chief prosecutor in our state's biggest county fortune 50 companies who have and our view was that we took looked at coming into defense. our role as ministers of justice we've said, man, you look at that process, there's no way seriously. that meant our role was to we're jumping in there. then they would come to us, at convict the guilty and protect the time lockheed martin, and the innocent. and one of the things i learned go, can we team with you, and is that it is especially vital that our law enforcement you show us how to get through officers have the training that this incredible process? is necessary to do their jobs, because they know they're going to fail. that they have the equipment,
they know it's going to be very that they have the information systems to so that they can expensive. so i think folks who kind of better coordinate and our judges look at that as the golden cow can get information on those in front of them and i also saw how effective law enforcement can be of maybe the next generation for in reducing crime and working true innovation, i think they'll with the community through the be mistaken, because i don't cops program, the burn justice think they're going to come. i think another thing that program and since i've got on the the senate i have championed hasn't been talked about is the those programs and i led the consistency of departmental bills to increase funds for those programs. strategy, acquisition strategy. the cops program has put more that's a tough one. i get it. than 100,000 cops on the beat since 1994 in my home state cops the problem is assistant secretaries change. they change quickly. and boy, can they change the granted funded 155 additional nature of a program overnight in police officers and sheriffs deputies and i'd start with you, terms of what we were planning mr. davis, you have an extensive law enforcement background with versus what they want. the police departments of i'll give you one example. it's an old one now. oakland and east palo alto. thank you for your service. how has your personal experience presidential helicopter. as a career law enforcement i won't name names but the officer shaped your belief in the cops program and do you assistant secretary back then who wrote the rfp, which was think we have sufficient resources for it now. about five assistant secretaries >> thank you, senator, for the earlier than when the decision question.
as a chormer chief i was a very to terminate happened, said, i want off the shelf, i don't want happy consumer of cops grants development, this is going to be and for my agency. cheap, it's going to be 85% it was a beautiful city but very solution, it's just a challenged with high crime and violence. to add two or three officers made a difference but what also helicopter, you know, we'll protect -- we need to protect, made a difference, senator is that a lot of research and the obviously, we'll get some coms publications that the cops in it, this is going to be off office put out i used that the shelf. that's how it was bid and won. information becausive in a research component. that's not how it ended up. i was able to use evidence-based a few little things, you know, programs that were very and this is not meant to effective that reduced crime in a very challenging neighbor criticize, because i think these because of the research that was are just what happens. done naturally. through the cops office i was the white house comes in, says, able to connect with my peers so well, we need to harden certain systems in there, we need 360 that i could learn the lessons that are valuable and when degree rotating seats so the reforming an organization, the challenge i had as a chief was president can have meetings an organization in need of inside. reform. i turned to the lessons learned just doing that added incredible from the consent decrees from weight to the system, because the civil rights division which these seats are not cheap, shape the lessons learned for they're custom made. collaborative reform agreement the carpet had to be thicker. so we can reduce crime and do in the such a way, senator, that all kinds of things like that, embraces the core values of this small things. then the white house photographer came up and said, i
country that embraces the don't like the rivets next to constitution to your point. so it was for me to be appointed here was a dream come true the door, it wrecks the photo because i was a supporter, op, so we need to move that consumer and it contributes to the effectiveness of my cities. strut back out of the way so we have clean, you know, view of >> so my question was the funding as go into this budget, as go into next year, do you the camera. think that our police well, i think all of you know, departments could be helped many you move one strut, and we did this pursuit of justice in fighting crime with more cops it, by the way, one strut into grant resources? >> on behalf of the thousands of the guts of the helicopter, you're moving them all, and chiefs that call me and speak to you're redesigning it. me, senator, they would really drastically need and want more at the end of the day, we had to add another rotor blade for the resources, more support, the policing today is not just local. weight, we had to redesign the i think recent cents will highlight the rolo cal police whole transmission. it was a new helicopter. will play in national security and this was done for all good so they need resources and reasons. but that's very much why we had the cost growth in that system. support. that's why this hearing is important. we need to supports them but they need additional resources. >> and i invite my colleagues to again, people at the beginning join me on this bill we'll be of the process who made the decision set the parameters, weren't at the end. reintroducing this year. that's a fact of life in a the other piece of this is just system.
i don't know how you change protecting the innocent piece that. and in my job for eight years we you can try to educate people, worked hard on that piece of it but everyone has a different -- and i fear, for instance, the with dna reviews we have videotape interrogation in our state. folks who are now in place in we were one of the first states to do that. of course police weren't big the structure as decisionmakers, fans of it and i think they came to see instances where it helped they're not going to be there them to convict the guilty. when many of these systems how people appeared on a they're making decisions for videotape immediately after future secretaries, many committing a crime was useful for the jurors to see and i also secretaries into the future, and i kind of guarantee you one thing, it's going to change as think it obviously improved policing because they could see the thing goes forward. if mistakes were made and it so it's a dynamic, tough, certainly didn't limit their interesting process. interrogation at all. the issue we talk about in that you know, i think -- i vein right now is body cameras congratulate everyone in this room for sticking in there, but and i'm wondering what both of also, you really see the you are hearing from the police when you talk to them about that dynamics of how complex, how issue. difficult this process is. what are the concerns and how that would be helpful going forward? there's a lot of good thinking >> i'll start, senator. here, and there's also a lot of thank you for the question. i think the biggest challenge just goodwill towards trying to for many agencies locally for do the right thing. the body cameras is the cost of i would include industry in that. industry gets a bad rap storage a challenge and also navigating privacy issues. sometimes, but definitely is
trying to pull the weight of and so in one sense we need them cost reduction and delivering more with less. so thanks very much. [ applause ] for enhanced accountability. officers are seeing the benefit, communities are seeing the benefit but there's privacy concerns and there's also cost and so i think we can provide >> thank you very much, greg. support by helping develop best that concludes our program. i would like to thank all the practices and when we say help develop, it's not that we do it speakers for their outstanding as the federal government but we presentations and doing a help the fielded a vance the wonderful job keeping things on field. we bring the best and brightest schedule. it was a very good forum. to come up with model policies constance and the staff and we can help them with storage and training and the ability to purchase because for some agencies even the cost of a organized another great eavent camera is too much for the general fund budget. >> ms. gupta, do you want to add for us, thank you, constance. [ applause ] >> thank you for the good lunch. we'll have video posted on our anything? >> i would say i think right now website soon. jurisdictions are engaged in thinking around the policies the formal presentations we've that i think haven't been said received, we'll circulate to you and put them on our we can sbsi. and we have a lot to learn at the justice department about the ways in which local jurisdictions are managing the privacy issues, cost issues so we welcome ideas for future we have been in conversation with local jurisdiction about events. thank you very much for what their experiences are so to participating. have a great weekend. that those can -- we take back good to see you, jack ganslor. and can inform the work that we're putting out to support
thank you for coming. best practices and policies every weekend on american around these issues right now. history tv on c-span 3, 48 hours >> all right, thank you very much to both of you. of programs and events that tell >> thank you very much. our nation's story. sunday morning at 10 eastern, i'd like to thank both of the witnesses for your public service and also for your our new series, road to the white house rewind, looks back testimony today and with that we to the 1988 political campaign will move on to the second panel. i'd like that ask the second of george herbert walker bush. panel of witnesses to come at 4 on real america, a color forward and as soon as everyone is seated we'll move on to the second panel of witnesses. film of president kennedy's fateful trip to texas in november of 1963. then at 5, "backstory" with the american history guys, as the guys, brian ballow, peter onuth, and ed ayers, discuss d.w. griffith's 1915 film "the birth of a nation" and its significance. american history tv, all weekend, every weekend, on c-span 3.
the answer is did i feel prepared. yes, i really did. if i ev first of all, i wasn't elected, so it didn't make that much difference. i did notice, though, the difference between being the vice president's wife and the president's wife is huge, because the vice president's wife can say anything. nobody cares. the minute you say one thing as president's wife, you've made i want to thank each of the the news. so that was a lesson i had to learn. witnesses from the second panel for being here. >> during george h.w. bush's we have six witnesses and we'll begin with ms. heather mcdonald presidency, barbara bush used who is the thomohomas w smith fw at the manhattan institute and contributing editor of "city the opportunity to become only the second first lady besides journal." a graduate of yale, cambridge abigail adams to be both the and stanford university law school. wife and mother of a president. ms. mcdonald's writings on policing, profiling, criminal barbara bush, this sunday night justice reform and race at 8:00 p.m. eastern, on relations have appeared in a c-span's original series, "first wide variety of respected publications over the years. ladies: influence and image," examining the public and private sherrilin ifill is director of
the naacp educational fund. lives of first ladies, sunday at a graduate of vassar college and 8:00 p.m. eastern, on american the nyu school of law. she's also worked for the aclu, history tv, on c-span 3. served as a professor at the maryland school of law and published a book on the legacy during the week washington of lynching in the 21st century. journal has been in florida discussing a range of issues. mr. john p. walters is the chief this past monday, a discussion on the 2016 campaign in that operating officer at the hudson state. institute, a graduate of this is about 35 minutes. michigan state and the university of toronto, mr. walters served for seven years in the george w. bush the state capitol of administration as a cabinet tallahassee, on the campus of member and the director of the florida state university. joining us from on board the c-span bus is public policy white house office of national drug control policy. professor dr. lance de haven before that he worked in the smith to talk about florida department of education during politics and campaign 2016. the reagan administration. dr. cedric alexander, currently dr. de haven smith, welcome to you, sir. serving as the chief of police >> thank you. i'm glad to be here. for dekalb county, georgia. >> i want to ask you, florida has been a swing state. dr. also sander obtained his we know it's a swing state in doctoral degree in clinical recent elections. psychology, a masters degree in is there any expectation, any marriage and family and a belief that it won't be a swing state again in 2016? bachelor's degree in sociology. prior to leading dekalb county's >> no, it will be a swing state police department, dr. alexander
in 2016. worked as the tsa's federal security director at the it's closely divided along party dallas-fort worth international airport. i hope your time in texas was a lines. there are about 4.1 million pleasant one, dr. alexander. republicans and 4.5 million mr. robert driscoll leads the democrats, but a lot of the democrats vote republican, washington, d.c. office of the they're these blue dog law firm mclynchy stafford and democrats. it's very evenly divided. serves as co-chair of the firm's we have close elections. white collar government there are 29 electoral votes at investigations group. a graduate of georgetown school stake here. we're the third largest state in of business and law center, mr. the country. so the path to the white house driscoll previously served as the deputy assistant attorney really runs through florida. >> you mentioned the third general and chief of staff for the department of justice's civil rights division. largest state in the country. the four most populous states, and finally mr. andrew mccarthy, it's the only one considered to a senior fellow at the national be a swing state. review institute and a contributing editor to "national why is that? review" a graduate of columbia >> well, it's the close division and the new york law school, between the parties. but there's also a couple of mccarthy served as a federal voting blocs that will switch prosecutor for 18 years in the united states attorney's office back and forth between the republicans and democrats, for the southern district of the new york. depending on the nature of the perhaps most notably he was the candidates and what happens lead prosecutor in the terrorism
during the campaigns. the big swing vote in the state case against the blind sheik and 11 others convicted in 1995 of historically has been these conspiring to wage a war of democrats who are in this area of the state, the panhandle, urban terrorism against the central, rural florida. united states. mr. mccarthy is the author of and they registered democrat, several books on terrorism and these counties around here would national security. be 60, 70, 80% democrat, but i thank each of you for being here and ms. mcdonald, we'll they would vote republican often begin with you. in statewide and national >> thank you so much. streeted senators, my name is elections. this has been the case since heather mcdonald, i'm a fellow really 1964, with the civil at the manhattan institute, a think tank in new york city. rights act. i'm honored to address you today. the rural white traditional for the last year, the nation has been convulsed by a protest southerners began to vote movement known as black lives republican. however, if the democrats run a matter. the movement holds that police southerner, they'll vote for officers are the greatest threat him. they voted for jimmy carter and facing a young man today and that the criminal justice system is racially biased. they voted for lyndon johnson. cops are now routinely called they voted for al gore. racists and murderers. let me qualify that. policing in urban areas has they voted for al gore and bill become dangerously fraught. clinton in 1996. they did not vote for al gore in president barack obama has done little to rebut the central
thesis of the black lives matter the 2000 election. that's largely why he lost or movement. tied. indeed, he has amplified them the blue dogs are -- they used over the last year, speak in new to be called yellow dogs. york city this may, for example, it was said that they were so the president claimed "young loyal to the democratic party black men experience being that they would vote for any treated differently by law democrat, even a yellow dog. enforcement in stops and in arrests and in charges and but they quit being so loyal, and they started toying with the incarcerations." in fact, there is no government republicans. there was a saying that they agency more dedicated to the don't always go home from the proposition that black lives dance with the one who brung matter than the police. 'em, because they would switch tens of thousands of black lives have been saved thanks to the back and forth. this group was the deciding data-driven policing revolution that began in the 1990s in new factor until 2000. but in the 2000 election, george york city. the police could end all uses of lethal force tomorrow and it w. bush did very well here. would have a negligible effect you may recall, or you may not on the black death by homicide recall, but the last day of the rate. over 6,000 blacks are murdered campaign, in the closest election in american history, each year, more than the number of whites and hispanics where was george w. bush? combined. even though blacks are less than his mother, barbara bush, went 13% of the nation's population.
their murderers are neither the police nor white civilians but to dentistin. other blacks. the rate of police shootings of blacks, less than one-third of all police fatal 's the is less barbara hooked up with jeb and they drove to jacksonville where than what the black crime rate george w. was finishing up the would predict. campaign with colin powell. blacks commit over 60% of all why would they spend so much robberies and nearly 60% of all valuable time here? murders in the largest u.s. this was where the election was going to be decided. counties and they commit 40% of the strange thing, though, was all cop lethal shootings. that gore tied, without the blue dog vote. i requested permission to submit what had happened is the for the record the relevant hispanic migration, particularly justice department documents. countless law-abiding residents puerto ricans into central in inner city communities florida, had made it possible for democrats to win a national fervently support the police. at a police community meetings election without the blue dog in new york city's south bronx vote. and it's just continued to move this june an elderly woman that way. >> dr. lance de haven smith is spontaneously explained "oh, how lovely when we see the police. our guest in this segment of the they are my friends." washington journal. he's part of our sunshine state residents begged for a police tour this morning. today we're focusing on the state of florida and its role in surveillance tower to protect
them against gang shootings and campaign 2016. asked the police to break up the if you want to join in the crowds of teens hanging out on conversation, democrats, corners and fighting. a routine request at police community meetings in urban republicans, independents. areas is for more drug a special line for florida enforcement, not less. residents in this segment. as for the broader claim that the criminal justice system is we'll take as many of your calls based, that, too, is false. on that line as we can get to. the overrepresentation of blacks in prison is a function of their but dr. de haven smith, i want elevated crime rates. to ask you, what are the key i request permission to submit markets, the key newspapers to look to when one is trying to for the record "is the criminal read the politics of florida in justice system racist" from the an election year? city urinal whi >> there are ten media markets city journal which address this in the state. is question. crime is now spiking across the it's just a very diverse state. country. you've got the miami herald, the fbi director james comey observed in october "most of america's 50 largest cities have st. petersburg times, the seen an increase in homicides orlando sentinel, and many other and shoot this is year and many of them have seen a huge papers. it's just a very diverse state. increase." and the candidates, you know, director comey also suggested that the cause of this crime it's like exchancampaigning in spike is what i and others have states. they've got to run ads in all dubbed the ferguson effect. these separate markets. for the last year, activists
it costs them about $2 million a have relentlessly denounced week to run ads in florida pedestrian stops and public because there are so many media order enforcement as racist. markets. >> and with all those media in response, officers are doing less of those activities. markets, does the focus usually rather than getting out of their come down to statewide races and cars to question someone hanging out on a known drug corner at federal elections? 1:00 a.m. they increasingly now does it simply cost too much to just drive on by. advertise on the congressional and local level in such an the available data document this expensive place to play? >> well, the congressional drop in proactive discretionary policing and the key here is level, with the u.s. congress, this is discretionary policing. is pretty well decided by the certainly the police responding to 911 calls, but the whole districting process. realm of proactive policing is what is under threat. and we have majority/minority districts that tend to pack in new york city, for example, summons for low-level offenses democrats into a smaller number like public urination and of congressional seats. drinking were down 26% in the and the republicans are spread first half of 2015. out. so we have a large majority of arrests in every crime category republicans in our congressional were down 158% as of late delegation even though the state is divided more or less 50/50 october even as homicides were between republicans and up 8%. democrats. >> although those -- in los angeles, arrests were >> i guess in answer to your down 10% even as violent crime question -- >> i was going to say, those is up 20%.
redistricting lines in florida despite evidence of the crime could be changed soon and could surge and the reason for it, impact the congressional president obama had the team delegation. marety this month to accuse >> that's exactly director comey of cherry picking and there was a constitution al data and pursuing a political agenda. to be sure, police departments amendment passed in florida that must work relentlessly on requires the districting to be done without protecting improving officer courtesy and making sure that officers use incumbents and that has gone to lethal force only as a last court, the federal congressional result, but the president's districts are in play, so to deledd speak. >> how are the individual delegitimizization of law enforcement puts officers' lives campaigns, who's trying to reach at risk. out to florida the most in suspects are more likely to resist arrest with force if they believe cops are racist. campaign 2016? it puts the lives of law-abiding you've got some native sons of florida running for the residents at risk since when the presidential campaign. cops back off, crime shoots up. but it also threaten the very >> well, hillary clinton comes legitimacy of law and order itself which puts our very here and jeb bush comes here and civilization at risk. thank you. >> thank you, ms. macdonald. marco rubio comes here, trump
has been here, serve looking at ms. ifill? this. >> good afternoon, chairman it's a -- the republicans have changed the rules a little bit cruz, ranking member coons and and they -- it could cause a members of the subcommittee. on behalf of the naacp legal dropoff in attention. defense and educational fund, i what they do now is whoever wins want to thank you for the florida gets all the electoral opportunity to testify about the crucial role that the department of justice has played in votes. in the past they were divided up investigating and supporting by congressional districts. this country's law enforcement if you won a congressional agencies. while i'm grateful to appear district you'd get one electoral vote out of here. before you today, i regret that the name of this hearing so the strategy then for the inaccurately describes the candidates was that everybody relationship between law would campaign here and pick up enforcement and the communities a few votes if they could but if they serve. there is no war on police. it's all or nothing and you what has been called a war is an don't have a good shot i think admittedly painful but necessary national conversation about the the candidates will stay away but clearly jeb bush and marco police use of excessive sometimes fatally excessive force against unarmed citizens. rubio are strong candidates a disproportionate number of here. these victims are african-american. the protests that have erupted one thing people haven't talked around the country are in response not to just what the about, rubio and bush have never entire nation has seen in won in florida in a presidential graphic and disturbing videos
over the last year, instead they election year. they've ron in the off year. that's when the gubernatorial reflect the decades-long reality and senate races have been. of the relationship between and it's a very different police and many communities of electorate in the off year. the democrats basically stay color. our painful confrontation with this long-simmering issue has home. turnout is about 70% in a compelled us to confront what presidential year. fbi james comey has described as it drops to 50% in an off year hard truths about race and law election so it's easier for the enforcement. the conversation we're having is democrats to win in the long overdue but i'm confident presidential years, that's how that it will result in better barack obama can come here and policing, stronger and more win and win twice even though we trusting relationships between the police and the communities have -- have had a republican they serve, and a safer america. governor since 1998 and we have a large majority of republicans it's not only appropriate but we in the state legislature. believe that americans expect our federal government to bring its resources and leadership to bear when we find ourselves confronting an issue of national >> president obama won in 2012 to mitt romney's 49%, a vote magnitude that threatens public difference of just about 47,000 confidence in our justice votes in a state with a system. the department of justice is a population of 19.9 million. resource to local law enforcement communities throughout this country and as we're talking to florida state you heard earlier, the linchpin university professor and public of their process has been
collaboration. the department has through the affairs and policy. cops program provided by an let's bring in calls as we discuss the importance of array of technical assistance to florida in the 2016 election. local police departments, including training at critical gary's up first calling in from puerto rico on our line for moments as unrest developed in communities around this country over the last year. democrats. where necessary, they have used their enforcement powers to gary, governor romney. ensure local police departments >> governor romney. are not violating the law. i w -- good morning. >> good morning. this goes to the heart of the i was interested in knowing how the puerto rican vote is going function of the justice to affect the outcome since we department. have a serious problem in puerto rico where everybody wants to go to florida to get a job. depictions of police misconduct since the united states has put is astronomical. us on the back of the line for the "wall street journal" reported this summer that between 2010 and 2015 the 10 cities with the largest police departments paid out total of over a billion dollars in settlements and court judgments in private police misconduct no reason. cases. the entire annual budget of the department of justice division over seeing pattern and practice it's just relive on an island. it's ridiculous that after more informations is but a fraction of that amount. than 100 years we're still not a i'd like to address comments made today and recently about the so-called ferguson effect. state.
a lot of puerto ricans are there is no credible evidence that increased scrutiny of interested in statehood. policing has led to an uptick in violent crime. but we do know, however, is that a lack of confidence in police does exacerbate crime because good and effect i have policing depends on vigilant citizens who not only know what is going on in their communities but are people don't even know what the willing to share vital problems are a r when we've been information with law enforcement. a collaborative relationship between the police and the in the system for so many years and some people don't even know communities they serve produces we are already citizens of the this result. the question is not whether united states. citizens should closely flangs the cathanks for the. scrutinized but the professional practices of public servants. dr. dehaven smith on the impact in a democracy this is what of the puerto rican vote. citizens should do. >> it's a decisive vote. you are doing it today on behalf of those you represent with this hearing. simply observing police and taking videos of police encounters is not the problem. the real questions center on what that increased scrutiny puerto ricans are u.s. citizens and when they enter the united reveals. states they can vote. and sadly what the public has some candidates have gone to witnessed over the past year is a disturbing pattern of policing puerto rico. that has resulted in the lowest
level of public confidence in the police in 23 years. they're concentrated in orlando if there is a ferguson effect i and the i-4 corridor. just to give you an example, in would describe it quite differently. the effect of the protests and the 2000 disputed election, increased scrutiny of law orange county are orlando is enforcement has provoked a conversation that includes law voted democrat for the first enforcement leaders, lawmakers, time since 1946 since in a citizens and members of the general public. we should be encouraged by the widespread con season us is about need t need for several critical reforms. presidential election. that's largely due to puerto these include the need for body ricans. when barack obama came to worn cameras and more effective orlando campaigning, he came out of orange county with 85,000 training. training and managing encounters more votes than john mccain and with persons with mental illness, with young people and with members of the lgbt community as well as training in implicit bias which if fbi the same with mitt romney. director recognizes also as particularly important. it was overwhelming and that vote has become so large, as i finally, almost all agree we said before, that you don't to lack viable data on police-involved killings and have the blue dog democrats for democrats to win the state. assaults. barack obama was the first the extraordinary work with the department of justice has carefully deployed their
non-southerner to come in to florida and win since 1960. resources and expertise. and, again, it was largely the puerto rican vote. they are ensuring the rule of the cuban vote most people don't l know this but cubans historically voted republican but they split evenly for barack obama so the hispanic vote and the latino vote and particularly the puerto rican vote is a decisive for the country if you think about it. florida is a swing state and the key vote is puerto rican and law. >> i want to make a couple of hispanic and latino and it could comments to try to get to the points that have been covered before. i'm here as an individual. i served in the past in the decide the election for the whole country. >> as you said 29 electoral administration of both george w. votes up for grabs in florida. in the past six elections bush, both george bush's father and president reagan. florida voters casting more than 41 million votes, sided with i got started working on the democrats three times and republicans three times. drug issue when crack and we're talking about florida in cocaine were sweeping our country and a problem for our the 2016 election taking your thoughts. i have a special line for schools. florida residents. i think the hearing has shown
patrick is on that line from that in some sense there's not a palm beach gardens, patrick is a disagreement about the courage republican. good morning, patrick. and the dedication of people in >> caller: good morning. law enforcement. my question is this. it seems to me -- although i'm in the light of the fact that somewhat unclear from the florida's so diverse, i live in testimony -- that there are more south florida, central florida instances of misconduct by is different and north florida different in regard to the anybody that they're minor and demographic, et cetera, how does your guest feel about the that they're -- wrong when challenges? what are the challenges for both they're wrong but they're still an amazing amount of marco rubio sure and also for professionalism and courage in our law enforcement agencies donald trump in the state of everyday and we all support florida. i'll hang up and listen. thank you. >> dr. dehaven smith? that. the big difference now it seems to me is the indictment of the >> well, the challenge is to criminal justice system without reach the swing voters and there substance, especially by senior federal officials in past and current in this situation and really tlarnt maaren't that man. the indictment of the criminal most people are either republican or democrat and the justice system as punishing blue dog democrats vote republican but there is a swing people wrongly in our prison vote. the blue dog democrats, the system. we've had a remarkable decline in crime. most crime is focussed in cuban voters are shifting and neighborhoods where people have the candidates have to go to all a lesser voice. we've saved thousands if not tens of thousands of lives
of these locations. through reductions in murders, they can't just campaign in miami or orlando or west palm especially among young black beach or tampa or jacksonville male which is have been a particular concern for every administration and every american citizen who cares about or pensacola. the safety of our fellow it's just a humongous state and citizens. the difference seems to be that the president and past attorney very diverse and for trump i general holder at any rate let think immigration is going to be the impression that our jails and prisons are somehow an example of injustice. a big problem for him. it's got to cause a reaction that people have not been -- from the hispanic and latino even though they've been apparently convicted through due process and fairly there's been no massive indictment of unjust voters. jeb bush, his problem is he hasn't been here in ten years as convictions that the here is governor so he's -- you know, number of people and the racial the people don't know him. florida adds about 300,000 composition of our criminal people a year to the state so it justice system is somehow an has a large number of newcomers. indictment of the people in it, especially police, who are the three million in ten years. ones with direct contact with so they weren't here when jeb the members of the community. now we know because the federal was here. government's created this data that the victimization of marco rubio is going to be individuals matches the results popular, he could carry the in our criminal justice system. hispanic vote or the latino that we're protecting the very
people of color who are more vote. frequently unfortunately victims about ten years ago when mel of crime. we are protecting the very martinez retired from the u.s. people who have less money and less resources who are very senate marco rubio ran for that seat and he carried orange frequently the victims of crime. we know from the very data the county. so that what -- that tells you federal government has been is -- and george w. bush didn't collecting that we've been able carry it. to reduce things like drug crime and what that tells you is that and addiction in communities in the past. hispanic vote was supporting a latino. >> let's stay on that line for nonetheless the administration has made it a priority to indict florida residents. the criminal justice system and mary is calling in from st. not just the federal system but petersburg. mary, good morning. the state and local system. >> caller: good morning. i just wanted to say that in and the danger of that, of most of our newspapers they're course is to make everybody in the criminal justice system and the institution of government so liberal now days that i've seem as aggressor, perpetrators gotten -- i've lived here in of wrongdoing if not victimizers florida 50 years and i've got on the where you can see it plainly of the very citizens they're sworn to protect. and if they recommend somebody i'll go completely the opposite this corruption -- and i agree with the earlier statement and i to vote for them because i know think we all know trust is the what they're doing. basis of our government as well as law enforcement -- this is >> dr. dehaven smith? the fundamental corrosion of the institution of justice and the
>> well, i think the newspapers relationship between citizens are a little liberal. and communities and the criminal i this they's an accurate case. justice system. to see these acts of protection they're concerned about as acts of wrongdoing. immigration and global climate that's what's really going on here and it's unfortunate and change and and civil rights and it's wrong and it's false and many other which would generally it's a situation that has led to be considered liberal issues. reducing penalties. you're going to consider the key issue the governor reducing mandatory minimum sentences that have protect misdemeanor people from crime, pushed the jobs is to develop the economy. broken down drug organizations there are papers in florida that that have victimized the least powerful in our communities. are more conservative. you're going to be asked to look the jacksonville newspaper is, at changing the structure of the pensacola newspaper is. relationships between the federal and state government as but st. pete is a little liberal the justice department witnesses and miami-dade, miami "herald" earlier testified and as you is a little liberal. it's just -- you know, it's part heard, the sentiments those of america, we have a diversity people presented when they were in private life when senator sessions raised that are then of opinions and fortunately we seen in positions of power lead are free to disagree. people to believe that the >> what about the florida people that are supposedly fair "sun-sentine "sun-sentinel"? that's the newspaper that had are unfair. the editorial calling for marco are person trafting falsehoods,
rubio to resign rather than keep are suggesting the criminal missing votes in congress? justice system is the criminal. that's what's wrong here and that needs a voice and i'm >> that was a very strong pleased that you've been able to editorial. i mean, it was a very aggressive get the people here together for a hearing like this. editorial. it was in some ways insulting it's taken -- it's taken far too and i -- i really don't know few people have had the courage for doing that so thank you for doing this and giving us an what to make of it because a lot opportunity to state what i think most americans know and of candidates miss votes in wonder why they don't hear. congress. rubio has missed more than any of the other candidates. >> thank you, mr. walters. but it's not unheard of and i dr. alexander. >> thank you, chairman cruz and was surprised by that editorial. ranking member coons and the i thought it was a little over subcommittee for an opportunity the top. >> jim is waiting in signal to be here with you today. i've been looking forward to mountain, tennessee, line for independents. jim, good morning. we're talking about florida's role in campaign 2016. this. it's an honor to participate in your question or comment. the witness in the senate hearing on the war on the police, how the federal >> caller: well, i did want to government undermines state and local law enforcement. first mention to the professor that i read his book "the hidden i'd like to thank you very much, teachings of jesus" and i liked senator cruz, for holding this it very much. hearing because i think it's
i wished the reached a wider very important and timely as well, too. audience. i speak to you from the per and the other something the idea of keeping people out so they -- speck tich of a lof a law you know, the immigration laws that are being recommended by the -- primarily the republicans enforcement officer for 39 years and i've been through several generations of the profession, are just silly and they're bound going back 1977 to today. to help any democrat do better i've seen law enforcement change tremendously over the years. in florida. growing up in pensacola, florida, and spending some of my >> dr. dehaven-smith, would you early years of life in the great agree? state of alabama i've learned >> i would agree jeb bush has that for me law enforcement and public safety is one of the most tried to stake out a moderate valued opportunities that we all position on immigration and he must have and share in order to did this early, a year and a have safe communities and half or so ago, published a book countries as well. i've also had the opportunity to about it. but he's not getting much serve as immediate pass president of noble, the national organization of black law traction with it trump's very enforcement executives whose commission is ensure equity in vocal position on all of this is administration of justice and the provision of public service just overwhelming the news to all communities and to serve media. and i think the caller is right as the conscience of law
enforcement by being committed that it's going to push the to justice by action. it's my position that this latino and hispanic vote into country has the unique the democratic party probably opportunity today to address the for a generation if it continues lack of trust and understanding of law enforcement in many like that. i would like the thank the caller for reading my book. communities across this country. he's one of a dozen people that probably read it. it is imperative that every >> dr. lance dehaven-smith is a citizen that we collectively deploy solutions in the areas of training, community policing and professor of administration and public policy at florida state technology to ensure that america is secure both university, that's where the domestically and campaign 2016 bus for c-span is this morning. internationally. it's part of our sunshine state secondly, through these solutions we ear able to further the hopes and dreams of many of tour, we're on the campus of fsu our fore fathers in realizing in tallahasse, florida. the enrollment 41,000. true civil rights and human rights as stated in the undergraduate tuition and fees, instate $6,500. declaration of independence. out of state, almost $22,000 "we hold these truths to be we're talking with dr. dehaven self-evident that all men are smith for about the next 20 created equal. minutes or so to end our program that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable today. we're talking about florida's role in campaign 2016. rights. that among these are life, a special line for florida liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." the most recent events that we all are very familiar with, resident
resident. ann is waiting from tampa bay, ferguson, missouri, staten island, new york, and other cities across this great nation florida. ann, good morning. >> caller: good morning, how are you all this morning? when combined with willed or >> very good, ann, go ahead. perceived attacks on civil >> i'm very familiar the book he rights, legislation has created wrote and i would also like to environment which is many people across this country feel say thank you for having this program and the c-span bus go disenfranchised by their around the state because it is national and local governments. very diverse. >> i hope you stay tuned all so what are some of the week long. solutions we can talk about but go ahead. >> caller: i will. i definitely will. here? solutions to building bridges of i grew up in gainesville area understanding and partnership between law enforcement but i'm very familiar with the college there and i would like communities are to protect and for him to address just two serve. training is a very important things for me if he has time element. cultural competency, a word we hear a lot of, is a critical this morning: that the legislature just now -- and i'm component in bridging this gap in law enforcement and very confused at what they're doing regarding the communities of color. we know, too, as this country is redistricting here in the voting great as ours, as diverse as it is, we all must be sensitive to mess, i guess, from the the variety of cultures and legislature. where do we stand if we want to attitudes that exist among us. vote and when is that going to and i think it's pornd that we culminate into some kind of final decision? all have some sense of cultural and then the other thing that i competency. understanding, too, at the end
of it all we all are americans would like to ask him, if the at the end of the day. changes in cuba that we have gone through with the rubio and and it's important to note, too, the immigration senate situation and i'm not going to bore you is going to affect the changes with that but when i think about in terms of districting and that part of the state. community-oriented policing it and i'll hang up and listen to is a recommendation that law your comment. enforcement and community adopt thank you so much. community policing as a >> thanks for the question, anne. dr. dehaven-smith, take in the philosophy of policing in this which ever order you want. country. when i started out in law enforcement 39 years ago in south florida, date county, >> well, i'll answer in the order she asked. i think the redistricting will florida, it was one of those very troubling times in america. be decided in the courts. and a time where we'd just come there won't be a vote on that. off a very major riot, macduffy what happens is this fair riots of 1980, loss of a lot of districting amendment was passed that required you to district without favoritism for lives, lot of property, lot of civil unrest and racial issues protecting incumbents and the that extended out of that republican-controlled particular event. legislature apparently but we overcame that because we maneuvered behind the scenes to understood the importance that that community and that get a -- to make it appear that community at that particular the citizens were proposing time, that police and community had to find a way to work redistricting maps when it was together and we did.
really their own staff. and community-oriented policing it turns out the democrats were is, as you have said, senator doing something similar. but it's in the courts and i session, very important to public safety across this think it could be a month or so. nation. and if i could very quickly before my time runs out i want it's hard to say how long it to just one moment about will take but it's -- that's where it stands. advancing policing under the . idea of this whole war on the other question was -- what was the other question? policing. as a veteran officer and as a >> on the impact of cuban conservative senior law enforcement administrator i feel immigration. the issues deserve much further >> oh, yes, well this could be a discussion and i look forward to having that discussion and problem for rubio because he is answering any questions that you adamant about keeping ties with may have because i think i would cuba the way they have been with like to share if given the very little trade and tourism. opportunity some of my thoughts about this whole idea, this whole notion of war on police in but the cuban-american this country and what it means population in miami-dade county to some as being true and what is shifting. it means to others as being a the reason cubans voted misperceptions but. thank y republican for so lock is . thank you very much for this because in 1951 there was an
opportunity. >> thank you, dr. alexander. mr. driscoll? >> thank you, chairman cruz, invasion by expatriate cubans ranking member coons and members supported by the united states called the bay of pigs invision, of the committee. the troops got pinned down on appreciate the opportunity to discuss the role of the the beach. john kennedy, president kennedy, department of justice in enforcing its pattern and was asked to send air pow er in practice statute. i'll refer to section 14141 in the context of law enforcement. i had the privilege of serving beyond what he provided by and he said no. as the deputy assistant attorney these people were slaughtered on general of the civil rights division for two years under attorney general ashcroft and the beach and put in prison. the united states got them out assistant attorney general ralph boyd and i was active in supervising the special litigation sections at some point with an agreement with cuba but it left a very investigations to resolution of bitter taste in the cuban-americans' mouth and they consent decrease or agreements with law enforcement agencies in voted staunchly republican from cincinnati, columbus, miami and others. the section is important and then on until the 2008/2012 difficult and the men and women who do it deserve our respect but i think the doj leadership elections. and those who have oversight over doj should carefully we saw a shift. analyze the appropriate use of and the cuban-americans alive this pattern and practice during the bay of pigs are dying statute to ensure it's not used as a tool manipulate political
off and it's becoming more of a outcomes but fulfill its purpose of enforcing constitutional standards where there's been a democratic constituency. pattern of violations by state and local law enforcement. to add a little bit of law here, so rubio's tough stand may not sit so well with the hispanic to put context into this, the vote in southeast florida, the statute was passed in the wake of the rodney king beating and cuban-american vote. >> fsu is in tallahasse and the trial and was patterned under an next call comes from tallahasse. unsuccessful bill that was kevin is waiting on that line brought up in 1991 and legislative history of the for florida residents. provision made clear that 14141 kevin, good morning. >> caller: hi, the issue of is a gap-filler statute. college affordability is a debate that's heated up over the it was designed to fill a gap that exists in section 1983, the last few months but all i seem to hear is rhetoric from both long standing civil rights law sides. it seems like the republicans want to keep the status quo that -- by which private citizens can sue for a violation similar to when we had the issue of their constitutional rights. with health care whereas democrats want to take it maybe the gab in 1983 is that if your a step too far that i don't think the country is ready for rights are violated, if you're but no one is addressing the beaten by an officer, you can recover money damages but question of why. i would like to know what your there's no mechanism by which to enforce change in the police opinion is on why college department so you could have tuition is so expensive and how success of 1983 action but it it's got on the this point and what you think we should do wouldn't be auk says informal reforming the police department about it. >> dr. dehaven smith? but 14141 was passed to fill
that gap and when there's a >> i don't know why it's so proven pattern of constitutional high. violation the attorney general has the authority to say fix that policy or practice or you hear it's expensive to do procedure and get a federal court order to do that. the research and you have to have fancy labs and we want focus on the so-called stem however, section 14141 and this disciplines -- science, is important if you look at the technology, engineering, math -- legislative hiry did nothing to change the constitutional and those are expensive fields. standard of proof for violation but it is a -- it's really of the constitution and didn't make the civil rights division a roving police practices review disheartening, frankly, as a board with the ability to professor who has lived in require best practices around the country. florida since the early 1980s but over time the pattern and practice statute has been used and been a professor here to see more broadly by doj. the gradual shift of the cost of for example, recently the department will find a pattern higher education to the of practice of constitutional students. it used to be the state provided violations without ever proving by most of the funding and the any individual underlying tuition was relatively low but that's changed over the last 20 violation of the constitution. this happened in al manse county, north carolina, where the division went to trial and years and i see no indication of lost against the sheriff's department down there alleging a it changing direction. pattern and practice of racial i think that students -- it's a profiling in the federal district court judge found there
terrible issue for them. wasn't proof of any constitutional violation, never the debt they come out of mind pattern and practice. so often times the pattern and college with is sometimes really practice statute is used but has been unsuccess to feel prove individual violation. enormous and it's going to be almost impossible for them to of more concern, remedies under pay it back and yet this type of debt, student loans, you cannot these decrease go well beyond get out from under it. enjoining the specific pattern and practice of unconstitutional conduct but overflow into what you cannot declare bankruptcy and get away from it. appear to be political or regulatory decisions that would you have to pay those. so it's a --in a way a tragedy and should otherwise be handled locally or legislatively. and i hope people will look at for example, if you read the this and try to find out what cleveland consent order which is one of the big consent orders the -- why the cost so high and try to bring it down. there have been attempts to the department has highlighted this past summer, it establishes the community policing offer degrees for, like, commission, it has specific $20,000, keep them under that provisions to ensure diversity of the commission and how often amount so there's some efforts it meets and how often it will issue reports and the order is 100 pages long and if you read but the basic problem is the state doesn't want to contribute the money, it wants the students the order, i submit to you it's to pay. >> dr. dehaven-smith works in down right statutory in nature. the school of public it's as though the department of administration and policy at fsu justice drafted a new statute where the c-span campaign 2016 under which this department is going to operate. bus is today. committees like this may or may if you wanted to attend fsu out not be good idea.
of state it's about $22,000. i think community policing like everyone sells a good idea and in-state tuition about $6,500. community involvement is good but the city of cleveland can earl is up next waiting in decide whether or not it wants detroit, michigan. to create a committee through line for democrats. the local political process and requiring establishment of a earl, good morning. earl, are you with us? committee in a federal consent decree is beyond any remedy >> caller: hello, yes, i'm here, necessary to correct a pattern of constitutional violations. can you hear me? >> go ahead, earl. rather, such provisions use the consent decree negotiation as >> caller: yes. hey, lance, how are you going to the process of which doj and sit up here and give the local municipalities can obtain explanation of how the bushes political outcomes such as the went through florida, did these things to win the election when creation of the committee through federal court order. you didn't explain that the if insufficient tension is paid court stopped the counting, gave to limiting the pattern and practice statute used to enjoin the election to bush and then specific practices the civil rights division becomes a roving after everything was set and best practices unit appearing to done it was proven that the popular vote was won by gore. tello cal agencies it must i mean, you think -- you're collect certain racial data, use trying to rewrite history here. >> dr. dehaven-smith on the particular systems, it must use force in a certain way history of the 2000 election. regardless of the facts. >> actually, i wrote a book on when a division functions in the 2000 election called "the this manner it operates as a battle for florida" and it said regulator, not enforcer and very clearly that al gore regulations in question aren't reviewable, subject to comment
or authorized by congress and received more legally valid for example to use raw racial votes than george w. bush. disparities as the department this was determined by the did in ferguson to accuse them national opinion research center as racially biased policing, at the university of chicago. the media got together and funded a recount by this center those same daisparities exist i all law enforcement agencies so and they looked at -- there were it lets every law enforcement agency say you better do data 170,000 uncounted ballots and they looked at all of them and collection because we'll find a it turned out, ironically, that disparity and require you to do it wasn't the chads that were this remedy. so this breeds resentment by law the problem, the problem was enforcement who feel they've that about two-thirds of those been accused and convicted of a ballots were what came to be pattern of civil rights violation without proof whenever called write in overvotes. they've agreed to settle a case people were checking the spot rather than simply having the department enforce constitutional standards and for al gore and then writing al target policies and training gore the write inform space and directed to proven constitutional violations. i welcome any questions you when that's run through an optical scan reader it doesn't have. >> thank you, mr. driscoll. register, but obviously if you finally, mr. mccarthy. >> thank you, mr. chairman, look at it officially you can senator coons, members of the tell who the vote was for so committee. it's an honor to be here.
when they counted all the apart from my submitted ballots they found that gore had, indeed, won. testimony, mr. chairman, i feel compelled to say something about this was misreported largely in the title of florida because the miami the title of the hearing since "herald" ran an article saying it has been the subject of such debate back and forth. i don't see that there could be "well, bush would have won." any conceivable question that there is a war on the police. but, what they were saying was we have police that have been threatened. if it had just depending on the four counties that al gore asked police have been assaulted and police have been killed. for the recount and then gore that is not a national conversation. that is a war on the police. would have lost but the i took the question of the statewide vote was clearly for hearing not to be whether the justice department was the totality of the war on the gore and that could have been found out. police, i took the question presented by the hearing to be now, the court, they stopped the that there is a war on police, and has the justice department created the impression among the police that it is on the wrong recount and what they said at the end was not that you side. um, what i would like to direct couldn't do recounts, they said you needed statewide standards my limited time to is the ethos and you could have done in or culture of police departments florida but we ran out of time. and law enforcement. when an agency ethos informs now, the time limit, i don't know whether y'all remember this, december 12.
if you can't decide it by then police that taking enforcement it's too late. that actually came from a action can as a minimum expose an officer to internal forms of disputed election of 1876 that discipline and derail the possibility of career involved florida. and what happened is we had a advancement, and in addition may expose the officer to criminal and civil liability entailing republican governor who appointed an election commission all of the hardships of the and they decided that a couple criminal justice process, counties in south florida looked including the need to retain legal counsel, the public stigma like there were too many votes of being suspects of wrongdoing too many democratic votes and and the anxiety of worrying they threw those counties out about the financial and social but a democratic governor was elected and he had the right to appoint a new election well-being of the officer's family, then inevitably there commission which he did and they will be a reduction in law sent another slate up to washington to say the democrat enforcement activity and there is a bund ant reason to believe had won. this is what is happening in our this finally got resolved, country at the present time. my submitted testimony outlines three reasons or rationals for this police passivity. first, the obama administration obvious has signaled in various ways it obviously but what the federal is sympathetic to a dem og goingic narrative that depicts the police as violators of the government did then was write title 3 of the u.s. code and it federal civil rights laws. this narrative proceeds on a put a limit on when you could impact theory which holds that statistical disparities in racial and ethnic makeup of
submit your electoral votes. people subjecting to police investigative tactics are the so it was a mat house in florida and what bothers me most of all result of police bias. is this could happen again. this has not been thoroughly corrected. now, we are statewide on the this simplistic and deceptive same kind of voting machine, method is systematically skewed. optical scan ballots. so that solved the equal treatment issue that the u.s. supreme court raised. but we have errors in any voting system, usually about 1% so our when criminal behavior is elections are often decided by 1% or less and so we could accounted for, such as a stop and frisk technique to suspects easily end up with another recount and i don't think the underrepresents their portion in the criminal population even if laws are clear enough to guide it overrepresents their portion us through that. >> time for just a few more in the general population. calls in this first installment of c-span's sunshine state tour. we have that special line for since a great deal of crime florida residents if you want to involves minority offenders preying on minority communities, it is those communities that call in here at the end of our bear the brunt of police program today but john is passivity. the second rational is a pattern
waiting in herndon, virginia, on our line for democrats. of extremely destructive -- john, go ahead. rather, extremely destructive of >> caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. effective law enforcement that professor i want to ask you a the justice department has followed over the past several question if you already answered years. i think but my father used to a tragic event occurs with say tell me your friend and i tell you who you are. racial overtones, whether real or manufactured. for the last two elections they've been losing it because it will be patent that there's insufficient evidence of intentional killing or the republicans -- people are intentional deprivation of not buying republican messages. rights by the police. so if the -- if they see that yet minority community activists will demand prosecution. rather than help the communities understand that not all tragic what they tell the floridian is not working, when the republican events constitute federal criminal wrongs, the justice will change? because look at the people leading the republicans right department and its civil rights divisions convey the opposite now? it's drump and carson. message, appearing to confirm i think that in my opinion the activist's claims that violations have occurred, even pressuring state law enforcement there's two ideas running each other, it's old ideas and young agencies to embark on prosecutions based on insufficient evidence. ideas. florida has a lot of young naturally, this fans the flames people who don't want to hear of community discord. inevitably, it becomes obvious
the old ideas, the hate and that no civil rights or other violation occurred. division and all that most of yet while unable to bring a case the people that live in that area are cubans and latinos. in connection with the tragedy that drew its attention, the justice department exploits now if you don't listen to the people that vote few your everyday i don't care what rubio controversy to commence a large says, he has two mouths, one for scale civil rights the people who pay his bills and the other one he wants to act investigation. a so-called pattern or practice investigation. like he cares about the latino not just of the individual police officers involved in the tragedy but of the entire police department. vote jeb bush is the same thing. these investigations and the threat of civil suits have been he says one thing, tomorrow he used by the justice department says another thing. so people are confused and i to obtain effective control over several police departments as we don't think i've seen hillary have heard already today in the testimony. clinton right now she's in good while there can be little doubt position because nobody is that some real abuses should be addressed and these do turn up listening to this republicans in these investigations just as anymore. >> dr. dehaven-smith? a thorough investigation of the >> well, i think the republicans department would turn up abuses, the claim they are violating are still obviously quite strong people's rights is absurd. but they haven't carried florida i would also stress in light of some of the testimony already it in the last two presidential is not the number of cases elections. they continue to win in the off against the police department
years but just barely. that the department of justice very close and i think florida has brought that is the material thing. it is that these cases are used will be a predominantly as a proxy for cases the justice democratic state when there's -- department can't bring because when redistricting is done in it lacks evidence. it appears under the 2022. but it takes a long time for our circumstances in which these cases are brought to validate political system to change. it's got checks and balances and the anti-cop narrative. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. mccarthy. there are different levels of i want to note at the outset government and different timing of elections and different that i, like many members of this committee, served a number primary rules and the people frankly the republicans are fairly well entrenched in of years in law enforcement. both at the united states florida and they're doing whatever they can to limit the department of justice and as the democratic vote. solicitor general of the state of texas. >> dr. dehaven-smith i want to we have seen many aspersions thank you for your time and being part of the c-span sunshine state tour. cast in recent months and years directed at the men and women in this past tuesday as part of our series of discussions from law enforcement. florida on washington journal we i want to start, mr. walters, talk with an associate professor at the university of florida about the effort there is to with in your long experience in make the internet safer and more secure. the world of law enforcement,
this is about 40 minutes. are you aware of any evidence that there is a widespread pattern of racism among police >> joining us on our c-span bus which you can see a picture right there at the university of officers? florida is patrick traynor with >> no. the institute of cyber security. he's their co-director and he's to the contrary. they're devoting themselves to also a member of the computer and information science and try to save young people, even when other institutions fail. engineering department. professor, good morning. >> good morning. the family, education, young people to get them the care they it's a pleasure to be here. need. professor, because cyber security is a big topic, can you they see themselves as trying to break it down for us? make -- again, there are how would you define cyber mixtures of rare people who are obviously are bad actors in any security and what are the most institution. pressing issues in thats say the but the pattern that's talked about way too commonly is not only false but it's an insult to right now? the many people who have >> certainly, this seems to be a dedicated their lives to making people who are on the wrong track back on the right track. >> mr. walters, i will say your much simpler question a decade ago when things were less cyber experience precisely mirrors mine. but look around you today and it's hard to think of a device that in the years i have served or anything that you might have in your home that doesn't have in law enforcement, i have seen dedicated professionals, both some sort of cyber component to police officers and prosecutors, who care passionately about it. so everything from the power following the law. and, indeed, in a very large system that brings electricity to your house to your computer percentage of the cases where you are prosecuting criminals,
to your television which might the victims are members of the have a camera, be a smart tv. even now things like a smart minority community. the victims are fridge. every aspect of your home if not african-americans. now within the next five years the victims are hispanic. is going to be connected to the they are the one that is are larger internet and speaking to each other. so that expansion of capability being preyed upon. ms. macdonald, there has been a considerable discussion in this brings tremendous opportunity hearing about whether there's a pattern of increased crime and some concerns about what these devices are talking to and nationwide. what they should be doing with "the new york times," that famed those -- with that information right wing outlet, in august that they're receiving so there described the murder rates in a are a huge number of concerns number of large cities. facing us in cyber security. city of milwaukee has seen from one of the big ones that i'm sort of eluding to is this 2014 to 2015 an increase of 17% internet of things. in the homicide rate as of and the internet of things is simply the idea that all of our august of this year. device, instead of just doing new orleans an increase of 18%. baltimore, 35%. d.c. an increase of 30%. st. louis, an increase of 37%. their jobs as they might new york, an increase of 9%. normally do are going to talk to other devices, perhaps in your chicago, an increase of 20%. home, perhaps out in the cloud ms. macdonald, how do you explain the number of people at and get information so that they can do their jobs better. that hearing and democratic politicians nationwide that keep now, each of those devices is insisting, pay no attention to going to be somewhat limited in your lying eyes.
terms of its capabilities but we have no evidence that crime is increasing? the fact that every device in >> senator cruz, i think it's because the rise in crime is your home may now be on the seen as a block to their preferred narrative. internet is certainly an item of great concern to experts. so that's the first thing i'll talk about this morning. the next is the idea of cyber so the thinking is because we don't like the facts, the facts terrorism and this is that much of our structure, from water to must not be true. power, all of these things are connected to the internet now. and there's some concern that i find it astonishing that while this flexibility of sharing data and being able to control our infrastructure president obama apparently positively, these are very thinks he knows more about crime positive things for us that patterns in this country than someone else may be able to get his own fbi director who is the into that infrastructure and potentially cause great damage. >> professor, to the first part source -- the place where crime statistics are kept. of being such a connected person. when director comey confirms for the average consumer, can you give us a worst-case what not only "the new york times" but the liberal blog 538 scenario of what might happen as far as cyber crime or issue is has said, which is that when you concerned? i know people understand getting look at all of the 60 largest their credit card information stolen and things of that nature. cities, you have a crime and is there a worst-case scenario further than that? murder increase of 16%, which is
a huge increase. >> well, certainly. if there was a drop of 16% in so i worry about things like homicides, we would be high infiltration and spying on fiving each other. it is simply preposterous that obama thinks he knows more about individual citizens. the crime patterns in this so, for example, if you have a nice smart tv in your home, that country than fbi director comey. tv has a camera on it and if and to pick up on the question that camera isn't protected, about whether the cops are racist, the very fact that we people may be using it to look are dependent on what mr. mccarthy talks about, the inside your home to determine whether you're there or not disparate impact of racism, is there whoo you're doing in the because we have so little house and this could be evidence of intentional concerning from a physical discrimination. security standpoint. so the advantage if there is one to having your credit card so instead, we have to fall back upon the fact that sadly, most stolen over this is that certainly the physical any enforcement of a criminal law is going to have a disparate consequences of that are limited but if someone is using access impact on blacks because of the elevated rates of crime and the to an increasingly cyber breakdown of the black family. connected set of devices in your but that is because officers are home they may be able to learn there to protect lives, not because they're racist. >> i want to underscore the point you just made. more about you than you're mr. comey is the director of the fbi. willing to share so that's a big he was appointed to that concern for me. position. that also extends into this critical infrastructure piece that i mentioned as a second by president barak obama. he was confirmed by the united
point. in particular the idea that someone can reach into the power states senate into that grid and turn off large sections position. of grid where electricity is being delivered is certainly a what do you make of the president of the united states problematic thing to think about. the sang time with water, you impugning the integrity and the voracity of the director of the can imagine that instead of sending clean water that someone might be able to contaminate fbi that he appointed simply for having the tu temerity to speak water supplies and these about the truth about the rising physical impacts, these physical murder and crime rates we are threats that are becoming more and more possible because of the seeing? tight coupling of cyber and >> i think it's a demonstration physical are very, very of the extent to which ideology important to consider. rules this white house. >> our guest with us until the end of the show if you want to it is of a piece with president talk to him about cyber obama claiming that the criminal justice system is racist when terrorism, cyber threats, the justice department's own internet safety 202-748-8000 statistics show that the relationship between crime and eastern and central time zones incarceration -- when the president can go around claiming 748-8001 in mountain and pacific that the prison population is driven by drnf time zones. if you were a victim of cyber crime, 202-748-8002.
professor, talk about the age we live in. most people would understand security has to be taking place and there's software available to keep us protected yet we still keep hearing about instances of people getting into information via computer. what's the disconnect between what we know what we should do and what is done? >> certainly. one thing i don't think most people understand is how complex software is. imagine if you're building a traditional building. you might have access to a blueprint and as you build that building you can touch and feel and understand that this i-beam supports this structure and the building will act as you expect. software is much more abstract. it's difficult to understand how the pieces fit together. it can be composed of millions, tens of millions of lines of
code and it's so complicated that not any single person can possible understand all of the complexity, all of the interplay. now we're making great progress in this space and we're developing techniques that help us write better software but the fact of the matter is that this is an incredibly, incredibly complex thing, software security. and it will almost certainly the b the case that software will be vulnerable in some fashion. so much of security will be risk mitigation, understanding what is at risk, what you're potentially risking and developing techniques to deal we they are preventing those risks being exploited or dealing with those risks on the other side. let me give you an example of one thing i find encouraging because i know these conversations about cyber security often end up being dismal and giving people not a lot of hope. but one encouraging thing i've seen recently is the move
towards the chip and signature on many rhett cards. please note i'm not saying this technical solution is absolutely a cure all but what it does do is make it much more difficult for someone who takes control of, say, a card reader or a point-of-sale unit at a place like home depot or target from then taking your credit card and using it again and again and again as we've seen too many times in recent memory. so the advantage to this approach is that it uses strong mathematically proven techniques to protect your information. now, one potential downside -- and we see this in the wruk the technology first arose is that it's important that folks on the policy side understand that we can't necessarily change our policy now under the assumption that the technology is perfect. so with the chip-and-pin solution in the uk, what we've seen is a reversal of the
liability model and the assumption is that the technology is perfect and therefore fraud is only possible by the user. so while i'm encouraged to see this in the united states, i hope we don't see a shift in the liability model such that consumers will ultimately be at risk if fraud or i should say when fraud does ultimately occur. >> our first call for you is from ann in ventura, california, a victim of cyber crime. ann, you're on. go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: hi, professor. i wanted to inquire. we got a tv service, internet service, and we have a smart tv and within the first time we signed up for netflix we were hacked and it was all around within like a half hour, we couldn't get back on the tv for about three or four days and we
went a different route, we went to an app thing and we contacted the server and they said basically well, contact and see if there's any action or anything happening in your --in the general area we can report that to you but that's basically all that was done and i was very much alarmed by that. we ended up going on a private app but i will never go to this. and also recently my health service, you know, it's a very big health company, was hacked and they have a prompter on their -- when you call in to find out about your claim if you were a victim of being hacked.
so what i want to know is with this horror that has happened that we know that these terrorists are encrypting their avenues to us how can -- what is out there that the u.s. can do for our citizens and what amount of money does it take and we have this technology is we're told over and over but we need to defend our citizens. >> gotcha, caller. we'll let our guests respond. thank you for calling. >> well thank you so much for the call and i'll try and break down those issues one by one. the first in regards to your tv. i've heard a number of cases where people have said their television has been compromised. what i would suggest in terms of a cyber security strategy for the average consumer is a mix of techniques. the first is financial.
so that television you mentioned was -- you believe was hacked in the first 3030 days. you could certainly return that television to either the manufacturer or the store, look for a different unit. use your power of economics to try and solve that problem. by the way, many credit cards also offer an extended warranty so you could use that through those credit cards to bring the tv back and find another product. the second is i highly recommend you speak to your public representatives because these are the folks who can really try and push for change. let me give you exam examples. there's a movement to look at software liability laws and if you write software and you don't perform best practices you may indeed be liable for damages caused by that software. this is an enormously cop flex issue and i don't want to simplify it any further but
having that national conversation about what the responsibilities are for software vendors, for hardware vendors and what they, indeed, owe to the general public, that's very, very important. so i encourage you to use both economic and your powers as a voter, as a u.s. citizen to talk to your public officials. finally, i highly recommend good security hygiene and that usually involves things like making sure you're doing updates on a regular basis so the moment you get that television out of the box what you want to do is do a software update and get it to the most updated possible version that that manufacturer allows, in fact, i can tell you many televisions will try to update themselves first before doing anything else. the other thing is ensure the other computers in your network are regularly updated that you're running anti-virus which aren't perfect but make it more difficult for you to become a target. so hopefully those three things together answer your question.
>> jeff from dayton, texas. good morning. go ahead. >> caller: yes i have a question about -- okay, all this cyber security i can understand what you're saying, you're trying to protect, they're doing it, you're trying to protect the water system, the electrical system or whatever but, you know, the things that nsa is doing and watching our own people, if there's really that a big a problem with terrorism i kind of agree with trump in a sense, shut the borders down, bring our military to protect us here and why not just watch what you're worried about being threatened. why are americans being watched through this? you say we have all this technology but then again there's no -- like, i don't have anything to hide. i've done in my life what i've done in my life but i don't want to feel snooped on and i feel like even these smart tvs and things, these cameras, the government eventually nsa will use that as their way of doing
things so i mean where does -- the word "american" begin and where does it end? >> so thank you for the question. and let me try to answer this in a couple of different -- at a couple different levels. it's one of the hallmarks of our republic that we have privacy and it's very, very important and i think it's certainly worth revisiting as part of a national conversation what that means at any given time and adjusting as we decide what's appropriate given the advances in technologies. i'll tell you one thing that most people don't understand about the nsa is that the amount of data they have to process is massive. and i'm not talking about data that's focusing on u.s. citizens. i have no information about that. but the amount of data they have is massive so you can understand that with that massive amount of data it's possible that there
are things that not even they see. so appreciate your point about potentially giving them more data, i can tell you that in reality that won't necessarily solve the problem even if we're willing to compromise on the privacy issue. there is a fundamental big data problem and that is we don't know yet how to deal with all of the data coming in, how to process it and how to turn data into knowledge and information. so it's an important national conversation. i really am glad to hear you're engaged in it and i hope others continue that engagement. >> lena from el by, washington. good morning. >> caller: good morning. mr. traynor appreciate you being on and appreciate your concern about these huge issues with the water supply, electrical grid, i think that are -- i think you're spot on and i don't understand
why there's so much trust when it comes to computers and technology and we just go ahead and go with it and think that everything will turn out just fine. i think there's a lot to be concerned about with everything being connected to that. i don't trust it myself. i don't even know what a microsoft cloud is. i don't know who runs the cloud. i don't know why it should be trusted. i think our younger generation being raised with it in schools are way more open to working and it's second nature to them because they're very educated in it but i don't know how savvy they are when it comes to trust the powers that be -- banking, big business, you name it,
profit. and all the threats our world is dealing with and the threats against the u.s. so i thank you for what you're doing and real quickly, why would anybody want a car that can be driven without a person? i don't see the importance of that. >> and professor if you could add on to that because you teach at a university. how do your students perceive this idea of trust and how much information they put out there? go ahead. >> there was a lot of great you have? that call. the first thing i want to note is i know these cyber security discussions go negative very quickly and i want to remind people of the amazing power, transformative power that technology has brought to our economy. it's created countless numbers
of jobs and it really helps our nation set priorities for the entire world so technology is very important. i want to talk to my students about it. i often joke i wonder what my father did at his desk when he was working before he had a personal computer. some of our older viewers will laugh at that silly motion from but it's been transform i have the and i think it can be positive. we have to focus on the tradeoffs, though, and as someone who works in engineering everything is about tradeoffs. we won't get technology that only has positives, that can only be used in good ways so we have to measure and balance those tradeoffs. i talk to my students a lot about those issues and i challenge them to think about, for example, okay, when you go to a web site and you enter information, if you fill out a survey and it asks you, well, how much money do you make in a
year? i ask them, who do you think then, they information? and do you think it only belongs to the person doing that survey? that survey might be saying "where are you in terms of the economic 1%?" well, often times i then reveal to them that that information is taken and sold and used as part of a profile to sell advertisements and they have to be careful about the information out there. another caller mentioned he didn't have anything to hide and i can certainly appreciate that but i think most people don't understand how complex the full picture of your data is and how much it can really say about you. how many things about who you are, what you do, what you believe in, what you don't believe in can be revealed by your habits online. and so it's very important, again, that we have this conversation. that we're careful about how we do things online. let me offer you one concrete
thing you can do, i know i've been talking very high level here. one thing that i encourage my students to do is when they're looking at their privacy, they're trying to browse online safely i often encourage them segregate their behaviors into certainly the most sensitive and less sensitive. so banking, for example, or when they're paying bills, encourage them to use one type of browser far and when they're doing other things i encourage them to use a different kind of browser and that just keeps these two activities highly sensitive say financial and less sensitive, say, just general web browsing looking at the news, keeping those two things separate so that problems in one don't come over and end up being problems in the other. >> jim up next and jim is joining us from winston-salem, north carolina. >> caller: thank you very much. professor traynor, appreciate your bringing this to our attention and you mentioned the
power grid briefly earlier and i would just appreciate a quick overview from you on how much -- or susceptible the power grid is to a threat and what do you think the power companies and their regulatory agency -- and let's include homeland security -- place on this cyber threat and are they taking the appropriate action in your opinion? what gravity to they give to this? i'll be happy to tack my question off the air. thank you very much. >> that's a great question and certainly one with nuanced answers so the power grid is clearly important. this is how we literally power the american economy, especially our digital economy so fallouts in the power grid, problems in the power grid have massive implications. just as you've said, the department of homeland security
certainly rates security of the power grid as one of hitheir highest priorities and i know they're working with electricity providers all throughout the nation and even into canada to try to develop a strategy and techniques but more needs to be done and we're building a cyber physical test bed and that will allow us to with partners in the electrical industry and partners in thing a sexual relation industry to simulate how power grids operate and then to simulate attacks on those grids and teach students how to then defend against those attacks so we're developing technologies that will help and we're also developing students who can go into that industry, who can go into also on the regulatory side and help move this conversation forward. so you're absolutely right.
homeland security is aware of the problem and it's one of their top priorities around we at the university of florida are prioritizing it and doing our part to ensuring attacks on the power grid have a minimal chance of causing physical damage. >> our c-span bus is on a sunshine state tour and we are visiting four local universities there in florida, having a chance to talk to experts, the university of florida is our stop today. patrick traynor of the university's institute for cyber security in which he serves as a co-director is joining us. professor talk on the notion of homeland security. stories when it comes to events in paris and how one of the means of communication between those members of isis is through playstation because it's encrypted. talk about that but the larger implications of terrorism especially for uses of these types of devices to communicate.
>> as i mentioned before and this is critical for everyone to understand that nearly all technology is dual use. we can use something like a car to bring us safely to work or we can use a car to, say, crash into a store and rob it. so we need to be careful about thinking of absolutes both in good and evil of the technology and absolutes in how we want to deal with that technology. so encryption is very, very important. we use it every single day. every time you check your e-mail. every time you go to your bank. all of those things are protected from people who are trying to intercept your communications, trying to steal your money, maybe even trying to steal personal things like your medical records and these are the positive uses of encryption. i've heard this story as well about isil using playstations and i don't have more details about that but it's not unexpected that this is
happening and there are certainly other ways in which intelligence agencies are able to get around this problem so i understand often times for people who are being surveilled that techniques such as using viruses to compromise their machines so the machine then decrypts the communications for them and that intelligence agency can then see the issue or can see the communication, these techniques are widely used so encryption by itself stops somebody who might be in the network from seeing a specific communication or at least the details of that communication but the fact that that communication is happening, that by itself is valuable and there are other techniques at the end points that agencies use to get around this problem. again, i strongly advocate for the use of inscription in civil societies. it's very, very important that
citizens like you and i have the ability to speak freely to each other and the vast, vast majority of uses of inscription around the world certainly are for good. >> here's gary from friday harbor, washington. go ahead. >> caller: i'm very glad to have professor traynor on and i'm an alumnus from the gators way back and -- >> go gators. >> caller: and in my junior year it was using one of the first ibm business games where three teams were using the computer to compete with each other. very primitive and simplified but it was really need and first exposure for me. i've got a follow-on question from your playstation both as to
what you do with students or just general information for us do -- does encryption -- i just decided to say in the a much simpler way. what percent of applications that people can either buy or use on phones or cell phones or computers are encrypted without us knowing or is it supposed to be publicized and i'm assuming that's an advantage competitive ly for us users. and a second thing is when you're talking about preparing students, what do we -- what should we be saying to students as to information that we gain
over the public media or the computers that we would have used in old days say world war ii days, the information that's coming over the public waves that i'm just surprised we hear. like i've seen three items in the news in the last weekend about electromagnetic pulses. >> okay, caller, thanks. >> first of all, great to speak with to an alumnus. it's a fantastic university. thank you for calling in. on your first question it's hard to say how many applications are using inscription technology but you run into them pretty much everyday so if you check your e-mail there's a good chance you're using inscription to talk to the smtp or e-mail server.
if you go to your bank's web site you're almost certainly using strong inscription there and our browsers give us hints. you'll probably know there's a lock up in the corner somewhere that you can click on and learn more details about the encryption that's going on. the rest of the time encryption is hidden from end users because it's the view of engineers that it's quite a complex issue and users may not understand it. that's a double-edged sword because it means when we're not doing encryption and users think it should be be there it isn't. so facebook in the past, for example, and this is probably, gosh, four years ago now, facebook only did inscription when you were doing log in and after that didn't. so after you logged in anyone else who was on the network could potentially see what you're doing. that's gone away and facebook now encrypts i believe everything that you do so your content is protected but the
side effect of hiding this encryption really is that people can say -- claim to be secure, claim to offer secure products and offer consumers no real reason, no real justification for that claim. so do look for it. a great example, again, go to a news site, i believe most news sites do not use https inscription and you'll miss that "s" and you won't see the lock and go to your bank and you can see that encryption working. on the other side, about what information we put out there, i was kind of hoping you were going to go with the old loose lips sink ships line and that's certainly true. the things we talk about online now are far different than the things we would talk about in plit discussion even ten years ago. and some only those changes are societal and some will probably require someone other than an engineer to talk about and
reason about. but we caution students about what they put up on line and one reason we do so is we warn them that employers, for example, will often look to see what you post so we caution we caution s unless you warrant this piece of pore to be associated with you for the rest of your life, because if you post it on the internet wil internet, it will be stored somewhere for the rest of your life, then don't do it. we have conversations at the university level and certainly at a more technical level in my courses that i teach me. thank you for the great questions. >> mehere is gary from saginaw, michigan. >> caller: hello. i was wondering what you think about government spying and taking more spying on everybody so much on the internet and everything. and i got one more, which do you
like the bekst, windows or leno? sgli po sg >> i had some difficulty hearing the question, but i believe it was what were my thoughts on the government spying on everybody. and my read on this goes directly to the constitution to established law and that we have a process in this country for data discovery. this was long enshrined about the legal processes that need to take place in order for your communications to be intercepted. and that's a very important differentiator of our nation and our freedoms. so there is an active discussion right now and i certainly encourage you to take part in it by talking to the folks that represent you at local state and national levels about how you see the changes in technology
either changing or adhering to laws as they're currently written. so that's a really excellence question and my advice is be active, talk to people. and make sure that your opinion on this matter is heard. >> professor, how did edward snowden change conversations we have about government and what they thou know about our inform? >> this is again a multifaceted issue. and i think i'll try and take the parts as well as i can. so i assume everyone is familiar but just in case, edward snowden was a former contractor who before going into exile took a
large a sensitive data with him and is releasing this data publicly. there are some who say that his actions are noble and say that his revelations of domestic spying are important and equivalent to whistle blowing. and others equate to treason and say it's dangerous for the nation. i think that it's a very nuanced issue. we've learned a lot about what happened in the post-9/11 america. we've learned a lot about domestic spying and the question from the previous caller i think can be well informed by the things that we learn from sthoed about domestic programs, about who is being looked at. so all of these things give us data as a scientist, an engineer, it allows me to reason and develop an opinion about something. so it's really important to
learn about the things that snowden released because they're certainly out there and to determine if this is the way we want our country to work and if this is what we want the cyber security policy to look like and of our allies to look like. so the u.s. government does a lot of work in establishing cyber security policy and i think this is very important work that we do. i was recently in the congo helping african nations develop policies to ensure internet freedoms, to ensure that the freedoms that people enjoy in the physical world are replicated online. and i can tell you from that side, there is a strong u.s. government effort to ensure civil rights and human rights around the world online.
so the snowden issue, it gives us data to ask ourselves about domestic policies and i think it tells us part of the story about the larger u.s. strategy on sish security. it's a very big courage so i encourage people to get involved and stay tuned because it chang changes. >> glenn from jupiter, florida, go ahead. >> caller: my daughter is at gator and very proud of her. here is my question. >> fantastic. >> caller: i continue to find it more and more difficult like swimming upriver to stay off on the grid. i'm an oldtimer, i'd rather keep my life simple and live my life. and if you can't be as good -- the best at something and that means staying on top of this whole, you know, all the progress in technology, then go
the other way. try to avoid it the best you can. and it's becoming so hard to stay off the grid, to live in society and yet keep your life simple so that you're not constantly under attack. cyber attack. where is the balance some do we stand a chance on keeping it simple and living a simpler life because i just feel like we're getting pushed, pushed, pushed. it's becoming more difficult just to live. >> great question and go gators. i'm gradualad to hear that your daughter is here and part of the excellent college of engineering. i agree and this is a larger philosophical discussion. it's difficult to disconnect even when you want to.
with this advent of the internet of thing things, when our toasters, refrigerators, our cars, when you're homes are now part of this information infrastructure, gosh, it's becoming even more complicated. i remember a few years ago i was trying to purchase a cellphone without a camera, which might seem a little strange, because i thought why would i want a camera on my cellphone. and it's become increasingly difficult. in fact as far as i can tell, impossible for me to find a phone without one. so part of the solution is in your economic choices. supporting products which you think are less in-fripging on your rights, less connect you to the world. but i agree it's more and more difficult to be disconnected in our increasingly connected society. >> annie there wildwood, florida, we have just a few minutes before we agree to the house of representatives, so
jump right in with your question or comments. >> caller: my daughter is there, too, in the foundation. i have a question, what legislation can we support that would keep us from being spied upon? it sounds a lot like big brother. how can we -- what legislation could we support. >> that's a fantastic question. i think what you should do is talk to your local representatives about crafting legislation. and come and talk to folks at universities like myself or in other parts of the state of florida. fantastic university system here. about the kinds of things that would matter. ite it's easy to pass legislation that seems attractive, but from a technical perspective, didn't quite help us, or has too many work-arounds. so the solution i believe is cooperation between the general
populous between technologists like myself and policymakers to decide what the right steps are, what society as a whole would benefit the most from. so that conversation is really important and i'm glad you asked the question. >> professor, before we let you go, as someone who studies the world of sish security, what are the next issues that we have to contend with not only as a nation but as a world as we deal with these larger issues? >> certainly. so one of my most important areas is mobile devices and in particular cellular. and if you think that the internet is a big deal, with 2 billion users a day, it absolutely is. but cellular networks and mobile systems have over 6 million users worldwide. and if you're an american company and you're thinking about how to expand to the rest of those folks on the planet, in the next five to ten years, the rest of the planet is going to come online through drell ucelld mobile systems. so we need to pay extra
attention in that pace space to understand the problems as the rest of the world joins us on the internet. >> professor, thanks for your time this morning. >> my pleasure. thank you. it's called the cross roads of new york state. and this weekend, you're c-span cities tour joined by our time warner cable partners will explore the history and literary life of syracuse, new york. on book tv, we'll visit the special collections library at syracuse university and learn about the anti-slavery movement in the area through the papers of garrett smith, and a local author discusses her book prelude to prison which explores the length between school suspensions and incarcerations. and then we'll talk about the book going viral which looks at why events go viral online. >> when something goes viral,
it's a process of social sharing. we tend to think of viral like a viral video is a video that got a million views. but actually it's more of process by which that happens. so virality is what happens when people share content usually into their own networks. and oftentimes somebody who has a lot of following, a lot of followers or a lot of people paying attention to them like an important blog also spreads to content. and then it reaches a wide audience. >> on american history tv, we'll visit the erie canal museum to learn how it influenced the growth of syracuse, central new york state and the nation. and then it's on to harriet tub man's home where the anti-slavery abolition nis acted as a conductor and caregiver to numerous people as part of the underground railroad. our trip to syracuse also takes us to the home of the one of the nation's first women's rights
champions. her speech in 1852 launched her into national prominence. >> she was 26 at the time and had four children already. she learns that the convention is going to occur, she writes a speech, and she travels to syracuse bringing her oldest daughter with her. now, she hadn't contacted any of the organizers. she is wasn't on the program. she hadn't asked to be involved in this. she just shows up. and she waits in the crowd. and when there is a quiet moment, she marches up on stage and trembling takes the podium and begins to speak. and she gives this incredibly moving speech. and from that moment, she goes on to become a leader in the
women's movement. >> this weekend watch c-span cities tour beginning saturday at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span2's book tv and sunday afternoon at 2:00 on american history tv on c-span3. the c-span cities tour, working with our cable of a fit fi affiliates and visiting cities across the country. and now two federal judges debatedatory minimums. they were the guest of the cato institute. this is about 1:40.
>> i think we're ready to get started. good afternoon, everybody. i'm tim lynch. i'm the director of cato's project on criminal justice. glad you could be with us. today we're going to be hosting a debate on the question of whether or not american criminal justice system needs an overhaul. we have two distinguished judges from our federal appellate courts that are here to share their point of view with us. what's interesting is that both guests were appointed to the bench by president reagan. this is not your typical left/right debate here in washington. it seems to me judges are in a unique position to contribute to improvement of our law and improvement of the administration of justice by writing articles, giving lectures and debating ideas that have an impact on our legal system. i want to thank both guests for taking time out of their busy
schedules to give us benefit of their experiences from the bench and suggesting ideas that might improve our legal system. before i introduce our speakers i want to lay a foundation. before i do that, let me ask those who came with cellphones, double-check, make sure they're silenced as a courtesy to our speakers. thank you. i should note we could hold a three-day conference and still not adequately cover all of the important issues that pertain to the american criminal justice system. but i would like to take -- put a few questions on the table. if our debaters want to address questions, fine. if they do not want to, if they want to use their allotted time to focus attention on other issues they think are important, that's fine.
maybe we can get to questions when we open up the floor and take your questions and comments after the debate. here are four questions to consider. first, do we have a problem with overcriminalization? do we have too many criminal statutes criminalizing too much activity? second, is our sentencing system too severe? are we incarcerating people longer than is just or necessary? this is something congress is debating, both in the house and senate. third question, do we have a problem with police and prosecutorial abuse? we do hear from time to time innocent people getting released from prison because of dna testing. are these mistakes inevitable in any criminal system, or are they indications of deeper problems concerning misconduct by government officials?
fourth, what about the level of crime in our society? over the weekend "the washington post" reported that baltimore recorded its 300th homicide of the year. what, if anything, can be done to minimize violence so we'll have fewer crime victims? going first today judge alex kozynski, serving on the 9th circuit of appeals for 30 years. as a matter of fact, last week he marked his 30th year on the 9th circuit. congratulations for that milestone. >> judge kozinski known for many things, magic tricks, strong romanian accent, humor, well-reasoned and sharply worded opinions and articles. over the summer he wrote a scathing critique of the
criminal justice system for the georgetown law journal "criminal his arguments have caused quite a stir in legal circles. over the past 10 or 12 weeks talking with either public defenders or prosecutors, i start telling them about this interesting article that they should check out and they stop me and say, we're aware of that article. so it definitely has been making rounds. george will wrote a column on it last month. give a warm welcome to judge alex kozinski. [ applause ] going second today will be judge jay harvie wilkinson, serving on the court of appeals for the 4th circuit more than 30 years. engaged in debating our legal system especially big cases that have been handed down by the supreme court over the years.
judge wilkinson has been widely published in all major newspapers and also written several books on the law. we had a book for him -- forum at cato. most relevant work is an article he published last year in vanderbilt law review "in defense of the american criminal justice system" he responds to various critics and makes the point our system has virtues not always acknowledged as much as they should be. he's spoken here several times. glad to have him back. welcome judge wilkinson. [ applause ] format is simple, each judge is going to give presentation of 15 to 20 minutes. after that, a brief second round, each speaker will be given five minutes to respond to what the other person has said. after that, open it up, take
your questions and comments. and then adjourn for a reception upstairs. the floor is yours. does our criminal justice system need an overhaul? >> thank you, tim. good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. i have been observing this process for 30 years, the same time as jay, and the conclusion i've come to is troubling signs on the horizon. we have had -- we've been doing the same thing, doing criminal trials for quite a long time for basically hundreds of years but the way we do them now for a couple hundred years and we make certain assumptions about the way the system operates. it turns out many assumptions are based on guesswork, what we
think is experience. and what much of what we see has been undermined recently by science and common sense. there's trouble signs on the horizon. let me point out, i don't think a lot of people focus on, and that is that the united states is an outlier, outlier, in the number of people it has in prison. look at numbers above, the united states with 319 million people has over 2.2 million people behind bars. that's a rate, number on right hand column of 698, almost 700 population. compare to china, next country that has a large prison population. they have about four times number of people we do but have fewer people in prison.
so their rate is 119 per 100,000. only one that's close to ours is russia. but then you get india, brazil, mexico, united kingdom, canada. take a look at this, china 90% of the global population, 16% of prison population, india 17% of population, 4%. united states 5% of population, a quarter of the world's prison population. that means that here in the home of the brave and land of the free resides one out of every four prisoners in the world. one out of every four prisoner. now we must ask ourselves, is our country that much more lawless than other neighboring countries, more lawless than canada or mexico?
are we -- do we get better policing? are we safer than, say, canada or united kingdom? in some places in the united states, take a look at bottom figure, there is louisiana, state of louisiana with 5 million people has far more prisoners than canada with 36 million. rate there is 1,000 per 11 -- 100,000 more than one out of every 100 louisianans is in prison. i find that surprising and shocking. now trying figure out why the case, we impose much harsher sentences for the same crime as a lot of other countries. the question is, is it justified
in terms of the cost to the human beings and to families. >> to the fact longer people stay in prison, less likely to be integrated back into society? in terms of running prisons it's $8 billion running federal, $80 billion for running a state prison. this is -- it doesn't -- it puts things in perspective there may be something wrong. we have quite a bit of scientific research that cast doubt on various aspects of the trial process, things that we always took for granted, perception, memory of witnesses. variety of other processes we use during trials. i don't have time for everything but let me focus on scientific evidence.
we have -- we take for granted somebody in lab coat comes and gives a report and says this is the case, that is the truth, that is the reality. but much of what science goes in the courtroom is not tested by dalbert standard, should be employed when deciding whether to admit scientific evidence in civil indicates. much in criminal cases done get put to the test. we assume it's valid. in fact, when various kinds of scientific evidence is put to the test, actually is a known sample and unknown sample and test how often the experts are right, there are tremendous error rates. you see numbers up above.
spectographic voice identification, 63%. hand writing identification, bite marks. fingerprints, you get the fingerprint, they've got you. turns out fingerprint, rolled prints when they test -- not latent prints left at the scene but ones where they roll them and make sure they're perfect samples, there's a significant, nontrivial error rate shown -- that shows up. poster child case of this is when the fbi a few years back announced 100% match to fingerprint found on a bag linked to 2004 madrid bombings and said guy whose fingerprint it was was brandon mayfield, oregon attorney. well, it turns out that two weeks later the spanish investigator identified a different person with 100% match
of fingerprints. the fbi had to go back and apologize to mayfield for having branded him an international criminal. some of the stuff -- at least mayfield got an apology. not everybody gets an apology. some of the stuff that gets admitted in criminal trials, because again it doesn't have to pass dalbert's standard, no validation necessary, somebody gets up, says i'm an expert in how fire is spread. well cameron todd willingham charged with setting fire in texas, to his house and his three children were killed and they had expert, so-called expert, come and testify that the fire had to have had an accelerant, gasoline or kerosene, to would have burned in a different way. turns out it's nonsense. turns out that that technique,
then widely used by people who are not experts, people who were firefighters and drew certain conclusions based on their experience, not on scientific research, many cases where testimony was given. in mayfield's case, he lost the race to try debunk evidence. he was executed in 2004. almost certainly wrongfully executed. studies done afterwards have unanimously said testimony in his case stuff that hung him was just complete voodoo science. now that is -- deals with an area of simply mistaken or confused forensic science.
one of the big problems many forensic office that do work for police view themselves as part of the prosecution team. they're not out there to determine in their minds, determine a just result or correct result. they are there to help build the prosecution's case. that's just a very bad structure having forensic offices supposedly who are objective really being part of the prosecution team. there are lots of examples. a few of them on the slide, cases where people in those offices either falsified reports, simply been careless, or just not bothered to do the work, and come up with a report pointing the finger at somebody. meloncar from montana, at least three people went to prison based on what he turned out to
have done that was not scientifically sound. and dookhan, look at two things, yeah, those are the same without testing them that implicated 34,000, i think number has gone up closer to 40,000 people whose criminal convictions have been implicated because annie dookhan said, yes, those two were the same substances. you say, what about dna? we're safe with dna? my word if we get a dna match we know that is safe. well, it's only as