tv Lewis and Clarks Expedition CSPAN February 6, 2016 7:00pm-8:00pm EST
the plantations. george washington did this as well. keyboarding slaves -- he brought in slaves from mount vernon. they served as the first domestic staff to the u.s. president. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on q&a. >> coming up next on american history tv, authors ralph ehrenberg and herman viola talk about "mapping the west with lewis and clark." the co-authors displayed the original map made by lewis and clark after their exploration of the western landscape of the united states. they discussed the role native americans played in the expectation. the library of congress hosted this hour-long event. >> thank you john. herman and i are going to act as a tag team today.
we have been doing this for many years. together a number of times going over the bitterroot mountains, following in the footsteps of lewis and clark. we initiated that for the smithsonian, carried that on. i was lucky enough to be involved in a number of those. that is how we became interested in lewis and clark. of course, he is a historian. said he came at it from that point of view. ima historian of cartography. -- i am a historian of cartography. together we put this book together. as far as we know, it's the only book that talks primarily about the maps of lewis and clark. of course, a huge number of books since the bicentennial of
lewis and clark on them and on the various activities. some touch on maps. there is a fine atlas that was put together of lewis and clark maps. we are trying to correct this imbalance by guiding and documenting the root of these maps. before i continue, i want to thank a number of people that were involved with this production. beginning with love and your publisher. done with theoks library of congress. i took this to her about 2 yer ars ago and she was very interested in it. we met with one of the publishers in our publishing office. she carried on from there. i want to thank both of them. i want to thank peggy,
particularly. and peter from the publishing office. from geography mapti vism, who scanned over the 100 maps in the book. they had to be scanned from the library of congress. the majority are from the map division. i want to thank jackie nolan, our photographer in the geography map division that compiled a number of the map. and our reference section, who h elped a great deal when i was working on the book. the theme of our book is a biography of lewis and clark's great 1814 map. is measures 12 by 28 inches. we have a copy here. tony is going to hold it up. just to give you an idea. >> could you speak up just a
little bit? ralph: we can't turn this up at a higher? you can't hear me any better? no? it's not working? how about this? well, we'll have to speak louder. [laughter] but here is the map. our book is a biography of this map. the power wasn't on. originalhe copperplate engraving. there is an american and british addition. this was published in 1814. the book is the background, the stories behind the story. this map was first published
with lewis and clark's journal, the history of the expedition under the command of captains lewis and clark, as edited by nicholas biddle. thomas jefferson was the inspiration. he wrote the specifications for the map. for lewis, but most of the mapmaking was done by his coleader, clark, who was a cartographer. military training, and self educated in map making. over 200 maps survived. 30 by american indians. the majority compiled by clark. although jefferson wrote "i cannot live without books." he also wrote" can next section -- "an inspection of a map will give any better description than writing." thomas jefferson himself was a cartographer. he published a map of virginia in 1787.
he comes from a family of mapmakers. joshua fry and peter jefferson published the first map of the state of virginia in the 1750's. -- i will move ahead here. doctor ismap the showing you. it's the biography of this map we are focusing on. the lewis and clark map can be reduced in a few hours, or probably a few minutes, using simple programming language and geographic data downloads from onboard earth orbiting satellites or digital elevation models. the one we see here was done in 2003 by the u.s. geological survey. it took three hours at that point.
200 years ago, the production of this map required a team of some 50 explorers, soldiers, american indians, mountain men, cartographers, copperplate engraver's, printers, and an american president and secretary of state. each took this group some 10 years to produce and public -- and produce and publish the map that the doctor just showed you. are book is focused on the story of this map and its back story. we will begin with a short overview of the expedition. then we will share several map stories and vignettes within the story, and conclude with a description of several special features of the book. you ralph.nk let's see if we can get this thing to work. i have a every week voice -- a v
ery weak voice and the mic isn't working. that is too bad. no way you can get that working? does this help a bit? ah, terrific. this is why we are a good team. [laughter] hermanerman -- i am viola, a curator emeritus at the smithsonian. we have done a lot of lewis and clark adventures together. horseback, il on think 20 times. we really got into it. especially the american indians. that is why i got particularly interested in this story. we interacted with so many different indian tribes. as most of you probably know more about this than we do, but we're not telling you the history of the expedition, we
are focusing on the story about map. the expedition started out in 1804, ended in st. louis in 1806. it was jefferson's inspiration. he wanted to know what was beyond the mississippi river. he wanted to do this several times, could not figure it out. he hired a scientist to come to the west coast by way of russia, and the conflicts stop him. -- and the kossacks stopped him. [laughter] once he became president he was able to make this a reality. he picked meriwether lewis, amended new the family quite well, and talked him into coming on board. -- a man that knew the family quite well, and talked him into coming on board. theoretically, i do want to offend anybody, these were probably republicans at the time. the congress did not want to waste any money. [laughter]
anyhow, jefferson had to convince congress this was actually an economic adventure that would pay off for the united states. fundeded $2500 or so to the soldiers to go west. he said we are doing this so that we can make contact with the native peoples that without west. we don't know anything about them. we don't know how many warriors they haven't these tribes. we've already had a couple of wrar with indians to begin withs. the last thing we want to do is to go west and find people we cannot cope with. congress thought that was a good idea. of course, jefferson secretly was hoping to discover new animals. all these stories about extinct creatures. he hoped some of those creatures were still alive. the only president that had a mastodon skeleton in the white house. [laughter] he wanted to make sure that the fellows who did this cap good
notes, documented the plants and priority, make friends with the native people they met. the last thing we wanted was a conflict with people all across the american west. anyhow, the expedition saint out from st. louis in 1804 in may. you can see this wonderful chart, which gives you an idea of the route back and forth. the reality is they actually thought there would be a ship on the pacific coast so that they would not have to walk all the way back again. there would be a boat that could take them. there was a lot of shipping going along the pacific coast. as it turned out, lewis and clark spent the winter out there. there was a vote -- a boat 50 miles up that they never had contact with.
so they decided to tighten their belts and go all the way back again. they ended up making 8000 miles on foot. -- on water, and 800 miles on foot. they tried to use votes primarily. the goal was to find a water route across the continent that would simplify making contact the pacific and international trade. they sent a boat back with stuff they already collected. they went back into canoes and further up river. the one drawback, which none of them went on -- jefferson thought this through very carefully -- they never dreamed they would need horses to cross the mountains. lewis and jefferson walked along the alleghenies. they knew the renton range --
the mountain range out there. they thought it was parallel to what was in the east. they thought they could just stroll over and take baotoats down. suddenly these poor fellows cds huge -- see these huge snow-covered mountains. they had 3000 pounds of supplies, a lot of ammunition, led, gunpowder. papers, notes, presents for the indians. they had a challenge. they knew that they needed horses. who had horses? the indians. fortunately they had with them a shoshone girl. only only hollywood could write a script like this. she was along because she was married to a frenchman. she said look, this is where i
used to live. she recognized places where she had been as a girl. she said, my people are here. sure enough, they bumped into a shoshone village. the chief of the village was her brother. i can't spend too much time with that, but it was a very emotional meeting. she was interpreting with this man, and they suddenly realize they are brother and sister. they had not seen each other in all these years. they hugged each other and cried. lewis and clark, in their journals, they said indians are just like us, they have emotions just like us. [laughter] depths toteresting this story. thanks to that reunion, they got their horses. they were able to go over the lolo trail, which i urge all of you to try to do, if you can. there is a highway you can take
now. there are still people out there , wranglers who will take people on horseback. you would be amazed the campsites that they documented. they are there to this day. we would take the journals out and read and say, this is where they stood. it was astounding. they made it to the pacific coast. the boat was not there to take them home. so they had to come all the way back again. the one myth about story is that lewis and clark went off into an untracked wilderness. the first people to see it. the reality is, they had aaa triplex. -- aaa help from the american indians. [laughter] hard for us to believe. the canadians had been up there earlier. they had collected a lot of geographical data from a native
peoples. lewis and clark are supposed to make friends with these native peoples. they did that very well. differentntered 55 native groups. some of them were complete fans of evil. -- complete bands of people. somewhere just individuals. they made contact with about 55 different tribal peoples. ay, we areion was to s the new people on the block, you may have been loyal to spain or russia or the french, but now the united states is here. we have a boss in the east who is going to be very kind to you. is going to be the great father. the indians called him the great white father. that was nonsense. it was always the great father,
the person who gives gifts. indians were colorblind that way. when of these engravings showing one oftings with her -- these engravings showing one of the meetings with the native peoples. where is it? they carried gifts to give to native evils. -- to get to native peoples. colorful ribbons they took. the most important were metals gaveniforms, things that military significance. these are called peace metals. on the offers of these coins, you see the class -- the clapsed hands of friendship.
lewis and clark carried about 100 of these with them. they gave the biggest, supposedly, to the head chief, although they did not have such a thing as a president. the middle sizes were the tenants. the small ones were the ordinary members of the community. these indians value 50's greatly. --valued these greatly. they would be very with them. -- would be buried with them. mentioned the aaa triptych. the hudson's bay people had been out there before. a man works for hudson's bay and worked to get geographical information that is remarkably accurate. at a map done in 1801.
recorded locations of the indian tribes in that part of the world. isthe rocky mountains, that this horizontal line. then he has the rivers that feed into it. he has located all these different villages. on this map is documented the locations of 32 indian tribes. the cia would have loved a map like this going into afghanistan. [laughter] it's an amazing network of information. later did another map. a very knowledgeable person. he simplified the map and took out people.
keep within the geographical features. it's astounding. what is astounding to ralph and myself is that the names of these features that the indian recorded parts of the names we use today for these features. mountaintooth, king today is chief mountain. heart imagine near cody wyoming. -- heart mountain near cody, wyoming. these have transferred down 200 years. you can see why it is such important information. lineyou have the red showing the missouri river. you see the rivers that feed into it. this was all compiled from his information.
this information went to england and was transferred to the first geographical map of north america. the most significant part of the indian that tribesmen filled this map with all of the people all over the west. when this was compiled in that wasall of that put in worthy geographical features. he erased all these thousands of people that lived out there. that is why unconvinced people in the east said, well, it's an empty landscape ours for the taking, because nobody is there. is all done with the stroke of a brush that dozens of people are gone. -- it is all done with the stroke of a brush that thousands of
people are gone. as lewis and clark go west, they encounter these people. that expedition could not have succeeded without the help of those indians they encountered. i like to tell folks would lewis and clark did was follow a chain across the west. each link in the chain is an indian community. they welcomed them. that is how it worked. it was a chain of friendship. i work a lot with indian people. when they get over the lolo trail and are starving, they think they can't get anywhere. they met another tribe. they had heard of what people, but never met them. -- w hite people, but never met them. a see a diligent distance and have to get food. they see 3 little boys jump up
and start running like crazy. clark gallops of all his worst, grabs one of the kids -- gallops up on his horse, grabs one of the kids. he has flaming red hair. ndians had not seen anything but people with black hair. they gave the boys yellow ribbons and said, tell your families that they will have extra people for dinner tonight. [laughter] we will be there shortly. these boys go running into the village. tribe still has this oral history today. they run into the village saying, we have seen monsters in the woods. their parents told him to calm down. what do you mean monsters? some of them have realized. only fish have blue eyes.
-- have blue eyes. and one monster, his head is upside down. [laughter] monster, his head is on fire. a long story short, the kids calmed down. we will see what these monsters are really like. they welcomed the expedition and the rest was history. thank you very much. [applause] ralph: he's not done yet. this was a very important map. this was the map of 1802. 1802 maps.2 this relates more directly to the lewis and clark expedition. this was purchased by jefferson. as part of the planning
jefferson a team together to plan next edition. -- plan the expedition. theorked very closely with secretary of treasury. secretary had data pulled together. surveyor ended up here in washington, d.c. he worked in the surveyor's department of the city of washington. in 1803, king was named first surveyor of the city of washington. he implemented the plan on the. warorked part-time for the department. he worked six hours a day for
the city and two hours a day for the war department. he did a number of maps for jefferson. this is one of them. .his is a map that he compiled this map was based on data from the hudson's bay company. map provided west coast outlines. the interior was taken off of t which is inh map, essence the indian tribesmen map. dated insets -- htey d -- they did insets for the
larger map. you can never read the details. i told them i wanted to do in such. -- to do insets. we have three of these in the book. this shows you the details of the upper missouri river. thi then the king mountain, heart mountain. boar's tooth mountain, but it should be bear's tooth mountain. that was ms. copied. it shows -- was miscopied. bismarck andd north dakota. this part of the map was taken
thompson's map. he compiles his map of north america, which is purchased by jefferson. it is copied by nicholas king. this map is then carried by lewis and clark to the great bend of missouri. it makes a great circle. an example of international exchange at an early time in our history. these two maps are in our collection. the second great map that relates to the final map is this one by clark. this was prepared by clark during the first winter
oversight near bismarck, north dakota. there were several indian villag es here. 1804-1805,nter of lewis and clark stayed here and sent information of the lower missouri. now for the first time this has been in detail. the french and spanish knew of this part of the river. they knew of the liver from st. louis. -- of the river from st. louis. they had not left it in detail. this information was sent in the spring of 1805, when lewis and legk sent off on the second of their expedition. they sent back 7-8 men. lewis and clark were very good
commanders. they sent back the malcontents along with this data. [laughter] the data reaches washington, d.c.. nicholas king, the first surveyor of the city of washington, a british trained cartographer. and thomas jefferson sit on the floor of the white house, pulling all this information together. jefferson was intimately involved with this. nicholas king compiles this map. he compiles four copies of this. this is in our collection. this is for the state department, one for each house of congress, and the war department. this is a state to prevent copy. the war department copy is in the national archives. the other two have disappeared. it shows three layers information. the we are he talked about,
first relatively accurate rendition of the lower missouri. the second is the missouri detail. the second relates to a census of military power. it is 300 tents, 800 men. it comes to 16,000 warriors. they could have been young boys, probably. that was the count, 16,000. the u.s. army at the time was recalled. -- was 3000, generously. this, they were a little concerned. that was one of the purposes of this. -- of this map.
the final layer of information is the west. the second leg of the expedition, which was a planning map. during the winter, they debriefed indians returning from war and training parties. they have this new information, they extend the missouri river. for the first time they have a map of yellowstone. they don't know what to do with these mountains, so they just push them to the north. [laughter] cartographers are very conservative. they try to retain all their information somewhere on the map.
all of the maps are compiled this way. the lower missouri was based on the survey. measuring the straight-line distance between each major turn during the journey and recording each compass bearing of the next turn. they had five separate compasses. congress relied on this 300 years earlier. the identity not change much. it is called dead reckoning. they take these compass bearings. clark is taking the bearings, and somebody in the boat is writing it down.
each turn, on an 8000 mile trip. each turn they recorded this information with the compass and distance. 45 degrees west of south. this book is a tremendous three volume work on the entire trip. they took readings and reverse readings. errors.re they were only about 20 miles off at the end of a 8000 mile trip. here you get the other information. 45 degrees west of south, which is this right here. there is a point of an open
plane on the opposite. then in the evenings, when they had some time, lewis and clark plotted their daily courses and distances on a gridded paper to provide a rudimentary base map to which geographic information could be added. that is how these sectional and river maps were made. stay, thenad a long they pulled all of those sheets together and made a composite map, which you see here. this is one of the river sheets
along the missouri river. it is very interesting, because this one says "this place called by the indians ' hill of little devils." that has a long history in the mythology. i think herman is going to add to that. this is worth it. [laughter] herman: very short. anyhow, we were talking about the little devils. the truth is, they are little people. many things people still see them and -- plainspeople still see them and believe in them. they are harboring hours of good luck. --harbingers of good luck. if you don't want to cross them -- one of my indian friends said they are like leprechauns. they are about that size. candor, i have met a
number of people that claim to have seen them. one fellow is going to write a book about it. my indian said -- indian friend say, please don't. the last thing we want is people coming through the reservations, looking for the little people. but i have one story. these were either northern things people. there little boy was quite sick. relatives were in the kitchen drink and coffee, praying. they thought the boy was going to die. they were there during the night. suddenly the boy pops out of the bedroom and comes into the kitchen. everybody says, you are up, are you ok? what is going on? he says, where is that little man that was next to my bed? these are the stories that are out there. it's interesting that lewis and clark documented the existence
of these people. okay? thank you. you can find this in the journals. they are online now. at original journals are yale university in the americana collection. they are fascinating to read, if you have time. but they did capture a lot of this social, cultural, and religious information along the way. going down the port, it was based on indian information. this is one of the pages from our book. it shows one of the documented cases very nicely. this is a white coyote. he visited the camp. it is well-documented. he showed them this map of yellowstone.
first reasonable map of the yellowstone river. they had heard of it, but had no maps. you can see it on the nicholas king maps. it was copied directly, place names as well. here is the larger upper missouri. all of that west of for demand and is based on indian information. it is a marvelous map. if you would like to see it, we will show it to you. it is in our division. they spent a trip at the end of the columbia river and compiled another map. again nicholas king, when this was brought back, had copied this.
everything here is new information. along the route of the expedition is based on lewis and clark. because of that information, clark came back along the yellowstone. they wanted to export as well as the upper missouri. -- to explore it as well as the upper missouri. the 30 indian maps that we have. you have to buy the book to see it-- [laughter] but i want to talk about how they communicated. they communicated by sign language.
expertthe hunters was an in plains sign language and also spoke 8 indian linkages. they had members with them that could speak various language is. this is what lewis and clark had to go through to get an answer outside of sign language. chain. the translation this is before they start crossing the mountains. it's taken right out of their journal. it is translated from tribal languages into french.
one example of 5 different languages in one chain. of course, it has to be reversed. it was very difficult. it was very time-consuming. it affected the way the maps were made. some of them took a day, two days to make. your going back and forth and also talking with different generations of indians. they are generally -- generational maps in some cases. i guess we are ready for questions. the rest of the story is in the book. [applause]
yes? map that the king showed the west as basically empty? map.: yes, the aerosmith thatindicates the idea there was a mountain range. one a single range. that was a concept in a european traditional views of the american west. they compare it to the appellations. as herman said, you go through a valley and you are at the next site. >> i am very interested in natural history. was the most interesting new species of animals they discovered? encountered so many different ones. the great one is the grizzly bear.
villages,were in the the indians said you must be careful, because once you get past us, the monster bers are going to get you. --monster bears are going to get you. they left, we have -- they laughed, we have guns. the worst problems they had were grizzly bears. they chased soldiers into trees. they would shoot them 5-6 times and it is not kill them. the grizzly bear was one of the most significant natural history specimens they encounter. >> i would like to hear about -- much the native peoples what did they do before the french came, and certainly the british and others? did they draw on the ground? whatis a transfer it -- data they transfer it to to keep
? ralph: they did draw on the ground. we begin the book with that. a draw it in the ground. they use stones and pile of dirt and draw lines for rivers. these would be copied by lewis or clark. many of the maps that exist -- let me show you one. here is the final printed map that we showed you. this is the indian map from which it came. you can see that they followed it very closely. this is lewis river, which is now the lower snake. clark's fork here. ground.tch it in the
1756 map in our collection that looks like it was drawn on some kind of animal skin. and birchbark. there are caps on birchbark. -- maps on birchbark. most of them are memory maps. they are drawn on the ground and passed along. not show youaps to something new, but to remind you of where you have been before, or something you had forgotten. you are going over the same area, the same trails across the rockies. map to helpketch a remember where you or your family has been before. but unlike the european tradition of cartography, creating a new map to learn something new, that did not exist.
today extend across generations? -- did they extend across generations? ralph: probably among european. >> [indiscernible] was there much revision in that span? ralph: after lewis died, clark took over his position as superintendent of indian affairs in the west. he interviewed all of the traders and trappers coming back from the west. in histhis large map office in st. louis. the base of this map is the
lewis clark expedition. he added this new information. he starts this in 1809. it is sent to washington in 1810. inn it is returned to him 1814 after the map is published. he continues to add new information. he makes corrections. we were just looking at one before relating to the wyoming area. 1809 tothat map from 1815. added expeditions in the south. john coulter is one of the great
explorers in the american west. on the weight bac -- on the way back, john culture asked if you could be discharged and joined trappers on the way back. he got not return to st. louis until 1810. he was out there that whole time. coulter was the first robenot. he was the first. 6 years.t there for he beat hugh glass and leonardo dicaprio by 200 years. on one of these occasions, his partner was killed and dismembered.
black feet then stripped coulter bare and told him to run for his life, assuming erroneously that he could not have run them. during his escape, he managed to kill one of his pursuers. in a great feat of insurance, he covered 300 -- of endurance, he covered 300 miles before reaching safety seven days later. that is the story that should be told, john coulter. traderrader ot there -- out there sent him on a five yellowstone what is national park to established a network of trading with the crows. heated in the middle of winter with snowshoes. -- he did it in the middle of winter with snowshoes.to commemorate him, he was debriefed by clark. clark at this new information to the map.
see his trip over what is today -- we see his trip over what is today yellowstone park. was still hoping the war department would publish this map. it shows coulter'route in 1807. he named this lake after his publisher, which i always wanted to do. [laughter] but there was an error by the engraver and it comes out lake riddle. but it's a great story. there are many more of these in the book. i don't know if i answered your question. >> getting on this information from the indians, and then the superintendent-- herman: he responsible for one of the largest dispositions of
the native americans. think hermant wants to take that. herman: i don't think you want to go there. ralph: he had very good relations with the indians, personally. herman: they called him the redhaired chief. they really admired him a great deal. he really admired the indians. but you're right, the trail of tears did occur in this time period. they thought the west was an empty place. east running the bureau of indian affairs did that because they thought indians were getting destroyed because of alcoholism and other problems. , a very of the bureau question -- very christian quaker wanted to put them out in the place were they could start all over again. that is probably how that got
started. it was to help indians, but it ended up destroying their culture and traditions. lewis and clark began with the maps that you showed us. along thered that way. i am gathering there are maps showing routes across the rockies, but they had no idea of the magnitude of the rockies. in my correct? ralph: correct, they had no idea. i'm reading one of several accounts. it makes it sound like it was unknown territory, but obviously it wasn't. ralph: the distances were only known. --the distances were unknown. the indians count on their maps.
they don't have miles and distances. they have numbered nights or days that it took. on the first lewis and clark which they copied fr om an indian map, it is written 8 nights. it puts it in terms of nights traveling. that is beyond the mountains. indians dide the that much in the mountains. they are in the front ranges of the mountains, where the game was. they cross the mountains to point buffalo. there were the indians on the western side. that is where the fishing was. within the mountains themselves, are not sure they did much.
herman: one must thing -- one last thing, remember lewis and clark gave those boys ribbons. reservation still has one of those pieces of ribbon in their museum. >> you mentioned the medals. how many of them survived? where are they? herman: the smithsonian has a good set of them. if you want to get copies of them, you can go to the u.s. mint. yes. have the original d they were made until the benjamin harrison administration. that the government stopped issuing them. by then, the purpose had so devalued, they were giving into
kids at indian schools if they got a good grade. so significant. but they were in existence for about 100 years. the mint has copies of all of the coined ones, not the stamped once created from washington. -- stamped ones created from washington. you can buy them at the union station. >> thank you ralph and herman. i would like to thank them not only for a great presentation, but also a wonderful book, which we learned about. i would like to say a word about the book itself. it is filled with a lot of the beautiful maps that you saw on the screen. alphlso has two r
reproductions of maps which come with the book. the book sells for $99. but you can get it today at a staff discount price of $90 at the library of congress. i hope you'll take advantage of that. take one more time to think ralph and herman -- to thank ralph and herman for sharing their stories and knowledge with us. just give them a final round of applause. [laughter] [laughter] [applause] they will be signing the book at this table. finally, i want to congratulate the publishing office, the managing director for negotiating this deal and bringing this book to us. thank you peggy. see you at the next presentation. please join us. you are watching american history tv. all weekend, every weekend on
c-span3. to join the conversation, like us facebook at c-span history. "thenday night, on communicators." a roundtable discussion on technology and cyber security issues that the federal government, congress, and the tech community will face in 2016. including cyber security, and privacy issues asserted with net neutrality. we speak with cyber security reporters. >> the cyber security information sharing act was signed into law just before the new year. it was passed as part of the omnibus budget bill. 1.15 trillion dollar budget bill. it is a first step in terms of allowing people to understand more about the hacking threat that the country faces. >> there b