tv Politics and Public Policy Today CSPAN February 26, 2016 11:00am-1:01pm EST
vaccines are a good way for foot and mouth disease. compare it to what we put in the national veterinary stockpile. we do not have the funding to prepare the nation to respond on to with vaccines and diagnostics. we have to have the capabilities to respond. in order to do that, we have to have the resources allocated before. we cannot be reactive. we have to be proactive. >> $1 million to $2 million. contrast to the strategic national stockpile.
they probably throw away more drugs that expire than the entire stock people. foot and mouth is the barbarians at the gates. it is just matter of time before they make it to this country. we cannot stop the spread of that disease. >> for the livestock industry, i think it would have to be an adequate supply of foot and mouth vaccine. that is the thing that scares us the most. i agree with dr. beckham. that is the mantra we have to follow. we know right now we do not have an adequate supply of f&m vaccine. nor do we have one for swine fever, which is spread from russian, eastern europe. it's only a matter of time before it moves elsewhere.
america puts in $1.9 million. that's a pittance compared to the loss we would suffer with foot and mouth disease outbreak. >> i would mirror what dr. beckham and mr.acorn has said. key detection and taking care of things as soon as possible. the less economic impact we are going to have. so is to me that's really the key. getting on top of this as quickly as possible and doing everything we can to have a response plan in place whether it's vaccination or other inches to really get on top of this and prevent it from spreading. >> thank you. mr. accord, in your testimony
you knowledge every passenger could harm the agricultural industry. in your opinion, in the united states doing enough to keep diseases and pests out of the united states and what more should be done? >> well, i think the effort has improved dramatically to address this issue. we are looking at an almost impossible job. i spend a lot of time at miami international airport. i take producers there all the time so they can see what's intercepted at the port of miami. in a few days, in a few days, you have a mountain of intercepted material. and it's unbelievable what people want to bring in. they have all kinds of opportunity to declare that they have something, but they don't.
i saw one passenger from venezuela literally bringing a grocery store in her suitcase and said they had nothing. thank goodness for the dogs. one of the positive things that has happened and i never thought i would say this at the time, but moving agricultural inspectors to the bureau of borders and customs protection was a very smart move. when i talk to them they tell me the improved enforcement through customs laws has contributed immensely to their ability to do their job. we have to spend more time at the country of origin and the country of departure. if we have any possibility of finding out what's in these in the first place.
like i said, p.e.d. however that got in, that same pathway is open for fmd for which we have no vaccine. madam chair, i will yield back. >> mr. bon van from new york for five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. mr. pain and i would like you to visit newark international airport. that's our airport. everyone here has spoken about early detention. it is so multi-faceted. when you think about homegrown products and livestock. imported products and livestock. how are we doing this early detention? first, maybe we can do it domestically. are the people on the ground trained to detect, or do we wait until someone gets sick and then
try to figure out the origin of that illness? how is it that we are doing early detention? certainly if we are doing it, whatever methods we are using now how can they be improved? and i open that up panel. >> member donovan, i would suggest that take place at the state and local level. the state animal health officials, my team within the veterinary division that is on the ground every day with pork producers, poultry producer, beef and dairy producer, we are seeing animals, working closely with private practitioners. that's where we will detect the disease the earlier. we are in touch with everything that goes on in your respective states. dr. beckham worked closely to develop a program called enhanced passive surveillance,
which was a means of identifying diseases early. it is almost like an emergency room visits that were recorded and tracked on a day-to-day basis. we have to make sure that capability exists. and i'm going suggest that you -- dhs has a unique role in all of this. i'm drawing on my seven years in the office of affairs. dhs has a threat reduction responsibility. and should work to enhance capabilities in preparedness and response. and a perfect example of that would have been the center for domestic preparedness in alabama. the ag merge response program. fema discontinued for that program because it was perceived
as a nonissue for our country. dhs should step up and work on the preparedness side and results side with states all over the ken. >> i would just echo that dr. mackey said. of the veterinarians we are, early detection is multi-faceted. it is heavily dependent on the producers recognizing there is something wrong. calling that veterinarian and getting them out there. we have the capability of collecting that on multiple devices. and having the capability to share that on mobile devices as well. they can share it and say, hey, is anyone else seeing this? that is what we have to implement to have a
comprehensive program for early detection that lies on first responders, veterinarians and the producers that works with our veterinarians to get all the information back. >> is it more difficult to detect a disease in our agricultural products than it is livestock? not that it is easy to detect with livestock, but it seems there may be more signs. >> we see clinical signs, right? >> right. >> exactly. >> i would agree with dr. beckham and dr. mackey. the practitioner will be the first to see a foreign animal disease in the u.s. pork industry spends a great deal of time talking to producers. we have educational material we are provided that encouraging them to report any usual
circumstances. we have a foreign animal disease diagnostic training program at the animal disease center. they are trained to recognize the symptoms of disease. that certainly could be expanded to include a larger number of people. it is very unique training. they actually get to see the disease. the animals are infected with foot and mouth disease. so they can see is firsthand their symptoms. i think we have -- we have a start i guess is how i would characterize it. >> my time has expired. if we do a second round, i want to ask can how we do this detection for things that we input. i yield the rest of my time, which isn't any. >> thank you, mr. donovan. ms. watson-coleman from new jersey for five minutes >> thank you very much. i have a number of questions prompted from just listening in
and out. we talked about detention. we talked about elimination. we talked about vaccines. i want to go before that. are there standards that people who grow crops have to follow, people who grow livestock have to follow? is there standards to ensure these products are being grown and these livestock are being bred and surviving under certain standards? and if so, who is responsible for policing that or monitoring that? what is the process for that? >> i would say first and foremost the marketplace sets those standards. if you're a producer of pork, beef producer, dairyman producing milk every day, you want to meet those market
standards to be assured that your product can go to market. >> are there standards you can only grow in this soil, this. if they're livestock, they can only be bred under certain circumstances. the way to prevent diseases and things of that nature as opposed to waiting until something happens. >> in the park industry, we have pork quality a program which sets some standards that determine animal welfare, animal health and monitoring. those kind of things. that does exist. >> who monitors that that's
actually happening? are those federal standards? >> no, ma'am, they're not. they are industry standards. and i would suggest to you there would be a great reluctance and absolute opposition by producers to be confined by any kind of federal standards as to how they produce -- raise livestock and produce crops. that would probably be viewed as unamerican to see that. >> even if the goal is to make sure that livestock and veggies and whatever are produced in a healthy way so that you don't have these various diseases? >> i don't think you can regulate industry or production of anything to that extent. there aren't enough resources to monitor how that's done.
quite honestly, we could pass all kinds of regulations. it's the ability to enforce those regulations that makes a difference. >> yeah. and i was kind of trying to get at that also. are there standards? who should be monitoring? you're saying such a thing isn't very viable in the industry. and i know that the producers would probably resist it. but i'm just wondering does government have a role in that? if so, what would it be? i could go on to some other areas. and i think it was you, mr. accord, you said there's no fmd vacci vaccine? do none exist? i don't know. >> there is a limited availability of vaccine. >> there is a vaccine but it is not available. >> it is a bank for north american, canada, mexico, u.s.,
all use it. it is stored there because the law prohibits it on the u.s. mainland. the antigen is shipped to europe where it is manufactured into vaccine and shipped back to the u.s. it has such few strains. the problem with it is the antigen has a shelf life. >> that's what i was going to ask you. >> after five years, the potency starts to go down. after 10 years, it is not all that effective, quite honestly. they don't even want to touch the manufacture at that point. >> there are so many agencies involved in this whole discussion we're asking today, madam chair man. i need to know what would be the most efficient involvement in the collaboration that could take place that is information sharing and not impeding and not delayed because there are so many cooks in that pot.
that is something we need to be exploring. thank you very much. >> mr. walker from north carolina? thank you, madam chair man. insider threat seems to be a significant danger to the food and agricultural sector. if there was an attack, would we be able to establish a chain of command? is there any protocol? dr. beckham, would you touch on that? >> i will let dr. mecas. they handle it at the state level typically. >> okay. >> we respond to any incident whether it's a hurricane, a tornado. we have just spent the last seven months preparing for high path ai in north carolina which thankfully has not come to pass.
but we developed our entire incident command structure to address every issue associated with an outbreak of influenza. it is disposal to the movement of lab samples to the laboratory for testing, routing of vehicles to make certain that we can effectively continue to move product and maintain some continuity of business even in the face of a disease outbreak. fema's incident command structure is the higher army by which we will operate. practically speaking every department of ag across the country is familiar at some level with this command structure. >> certainly being privileged to north carolina, being home base, it is in top five.
in your work on the agriculture side to keep this highly ranked. >> it hasn't been my work. it is my predecessors. i walked into a well-oiled machine to respond to incidents. >> as we see at the state level, you have to have people to keep the machines going. what with -- getting outside north carolina, are you familiar -- does anyone want to in the agriculture, are we seeing good capability across the country? are we being followed as a model? can anybody address that? >> there is a spectrum of capability across the country. a wide spectrum. that's where dhs has a role in working with usda.
we held an outbreak in december of 2013. and every player was at the tables. dhs and hhs for that matter. so it has to be an integrated effort. but dhs does have a significant role, an important role in driving preparedness and response capabilities. ? i had a final question. i'm not i want to ask it publicly. it talks about the most vulnerable target we have to agri terrorism. that may be better not shared publicly. so with that i will yield back my time. >> we will be voting soon. i want to give an opportunity for a second round until votes are called. appreciate the thoughtful questions and discussions so
far. one thing we have seen across many industries with the rise of terrorism and isis is is the potential use of drones for some and it doesn't take much. people are getting these for christmas. they are much cheaper and easier to use now. a crop or a farm, to have agri terrorism attack. is that something even being looked at at all by any of you? any ideas and considerations for addressing this difficult threat? >> while it is an additional potential for introduction of the disease, i don't see it creating anything new. agriculture is so open. animal production is so open. there is access to farmland and
to barns. you know, rather easily. so i don't think that's a -- is going to pose anything additional in terms of worry for the agriculture industry. >> i will share with you during the pant virus outbreak in april 2013 and arrived in north carolina shortly thereafter that our colleagues used drones to surveil disposal of piglets that died all throughout eastern north carolina. so that was a concern. we obviously did our best to make certain we didn't create an environmental problem associated with an agriculture kwrul disease outbreak but who knows where this will go in the future? >> they could use positively as well for surveillance. one question, dr. beckham. a lot of friends who are
veterinarians. both small and large animal. they share there's fewer and fewer people choosing that field of work. it is becoming more and more expensive. they are going -- like a lot of higher education. they are going significantly into debt. and so it is a bit of deterrent to even choose the field. part of making sure we are ready in this area is making sure we have the next generation being trained up. i know the university of arizona anyway they are trying to do an innovative program to compress the number of years for the bachelor's and moving on from there. an individual would graduate being a doctor in veterinary medicine and have a nurse
practitioner to bridge the gap between animals and human. >> i'm incredibly concerned about it. that's why i went to the university of kansas to be dean there. it is something we have to address. we are losing expertise going back to detect working the livestock and medicine. there is a whole host of reasons that is happening. we have to come together and look at novel and innovative ways to get students in and out with less student loan debt. we have to give additional skill sets. we at kansas state pride ourselves that we still have one of the locations that produce quite a bit of students that go out and produce veterinary medicine. we have paid tuition for those who agree to go back into kansas and work in rural areas. we have to continue to look at novel and innovative ways to do
that. we are starting to look at that as well. how do you compress the time it takes a student to get in and get out. are there ways we can do it more efficient and those types of things. we as a profession have to take a look at that across the united states. that's something i think we are starting to do. i don't know that we have done it aggressively enough. >> look at what they are doing from the bottom up. ground breaking at the university of arizona. it seems innovative. i will yield back the balance of my time and recognize mr. payne for another five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair. mr. williams, you mentioned biosecurity measures developed by the poultry industry followed
by the avian flu outbreak and how the model can be applied across various agricultural industries. can you elaborate on the best way for the public and the private sectors to help drive participation and adopt pieeo security measures that are mutually beneficial to each other? >> well, just to kind of talk a little bit more about what i've seen in the state of mississippi. after the avian influenza outbreak a year ago, producers were incredibly concerned. they were very willing to come to the table and work with the state veterinarian, the usda in developing these plans. what it comes down to is we need a boots on the ground approach. we were discussing this over the
summer. we were giving them signs to look for. that is something our veterinarians can really work w. tell them and inform them what do we need to look for for signs of a potential outbreak. then when you see the signs, these symptoms, report them immediately to your state veterinarian, local veterinarian. have it investigated. we were talking about backyard birds, backyard poultry farmers or operations. if you see something, report it immediately. that's really -- the system they have started to get in place to recognize things as quickly as we possibly can, to get on top of it, garden teen the area and localize it as much as possible. >> if you see something, say something. ? exactly. >> may i comment? >> sure.
>> the pork industry always prided itself on having a good-byeeo security system. because of the structure, we know we are more vulnerable to disease. but at the same time, while we thought we had the perfect system, we had the p.e.d. outbreak, we discovered a lot of holes in that system. we have begun working on those. the other point i want to make, and it hasn't been brought up here, we have a huge threat from urban animal agriculture. it is unbelievable how much poultry even now the pot belly pigs and sheep and goats in some places kept in urban environments. they totally escape the animal health network and are the most vulnerable to disease introduction. that's an area we have to start paying much more attention to than we have up to this point.
we have had problems with live bird markets. it's another vulnerability we haven't looked at hard enough stphrfplt thank you. dr. beckham, it's my understanding that kanscans partnered up with fema. >> i think it falls under the research institute where they are actually using that facility to train veterinarians on signs and clinical symptoms for foreign animal diseases. so it is a novel use of that facility to be able to bring veterinarians in and provide that kind of training there in kansas. it is unique. it aligns closely with what
happened at the animal disease center. the more we can do those outside containment and demonstrate those types of subsidizes that's at least one component that can go out and do that. there are many diagnostic practitioner courses at colorado state as well. there is the fadd course. >> thank you. >> the chair recognizes mr. donovan from new york. >> we are being told votes are in two minutes. let me ask the question i wanted to ask in the first round -- we spoke about domestic detection. since we import so many products, where is our
importation detection? where are we making detections internationally for products being brought into the country? >> i can speak from animal plant health inspections standpoint. a risk statement is done any time there is a request 20 import or export another commodity to the u.s. they are asked to provide a lot of information about the existence of a disease within their country, what kind of surveillance do they have, do they have authority, do they have enough veterinarians to deal with disease. those kind of fundamental questions. sometimes it results in a site visit to go look at the country and see if what they are telling the u.s. is true. and a formal risk assessment is done. but there are a lot of products getting into this country that are not getting the kind of
review in country that they need from the standpoint of the manufacture of those products. so we have a gap in that area. not enough is being done. we cannot rely on port oven try of being the first line of defense. that's not going to work. >> if you talk about something imported into our foods purposely, all the help would be exporting isn't going to help. ? sure. >> are we doing any detection products coming in aside from the exporting country that you're aware of? >> there's a group within dhs that as bobby mentioned, reviews shipping invoices on a day to
day basis. what being said, less than 2% are inspected in any form, physically inspected in any form or fashion. someone with less than stellar intent could bring something in that would never be observed. >> maybe we should have said that publicly. madam chair, i think that is vote call. i will yield back the remainder of my time. >> the gentleman yields back. in chosing, in my time in the military we talk about threat equals capability plus intent. clearly the capabilities are there. we do know the intelligent is there for potential agri terrorism attack. in 2002 we had a navy s.e.a.l.
raid, finding documents, how to caring on out a terror attack on america's agriculture. as you mentioned, dr. beckham, these agents naturally exist in boko haram, al shabaab and others. and former health and human services tommy thompson when he left in 2004, he said for the life of me i cannot understand why they have not targeted our food supply because it is so easy to do. we hold this not to instill fear for the american public but raise awareness what the threats are and identify what we can do as a federal government and working closely with private sector states, academia in order to address the threats in order to keep our country, our food supply, our cultural system safe and secure from these types of threats. so it was a great hearing. i appreciate all the witnesses's
testimony today. closing out my final hearing here, you are all in good hands. handing over the gavel to mr. donovan. it has been a pleasure to be chairing the subcommittee. i will continue to move forward on some of these pressuring issues. thank you for your hard work and your tomorrow today. we may have additional questions for the witnesses. we will ask that you respond in writing. the hearing record will be open for seven days. without objection, the hearing stands adjourned.
saturday, south carolina holds its democratic presidential primary. 7:30 p.m. eastern, c-span will bring results from south carolina, along with speeches from the candidates and your reaction on the phone and on facebook and twitter. and two days later, super tuesday, when 12 states hold presidential primaries or caucuses. it has also been called the sec primary because many of the states holding contests that day participate in the u.s. collegiate southeastern conference.
results from those races and candidate speeches are live on tuesday starting at 7:00 p.m. eastern. during campaign 2016, c-span takes you on the road to the white house. as we follow the candidates on c-span, c-span radio and c-span.org. >> homeland security secretary jeh johnson hosted a discussion about disaster preparedness and response. governors and a mayor joined him to discuss how they handled natural disasters and terrorist attacks.
hit the homeland at any given moment. it is home state security. hometown security. dealing with the unexpected, the surprises of sudden crises are much of what we do at the federal, state, and local level. so often what makes the difference is strong, visible, decisive leadership. one of the models for me has been rudy giuliani. hired me to be assistant attorney general in 1988.
and for a lot of new yorkers like myself, is an example of leadership through crisis because of his visible, decisive leadership in the days immediately after 9/11. in addition to mayor giuliani, we have other leaders across this country who have been faced with all manner of crises, whether it's a natural disaster, the collapse of a bridge, 9/11, a terrorist attack, a mass shooting, or natural disasters. tornadoes, floods, blizzards, and the like. here with me today with five gentlemen who are, in my judgment, great americans who have had the experience of leadership through crisis, and in my view, have done it well. this is a bipartisan group and non-partisan event. good leadership in crisis is not a democratic or republican phenomenon. it is more about the elected official, less so about their political stripes.
so here today are people i respect a lot. i appreciate their time out of their busy schedules for being here today. let me introduce them to you. to my immediate left, governor dan malloy of connecticut. former assistant district attorney in brooklyn. how many adas in brooklyn get to be governor of connecticut? graduate of boston college law school. mayor of stamford, connecticut for 14 years. has been governor of connecticut since 2011. on december 14th, 2012, governor malloy was faced with one of the worst mass shootings in u.s. history in newtown, connecticut, at the sandy hook elementary school. 26 people, 20 school kids, six adults, shot and killed that day. the second-deadliest mass shooting by a single person in u.s. history. governor malloy, while governor of connecticut has also had to face hurricane sandy in october 2012, as well as hurricane irene
in august 2011, and something like 750,000 customers and connecticut residents without power. governor jay nixon of missouri. governor of a state of 6 million people has been governor since 2004. is that correct? 2004. prior to that, attorney general of the state of missouri, a member of the state senate, and a lawyer. as most people here know, if not everyone, governor nixon in 2014 faced a civil unrest in ferguson, missouri, in the aftermath of the shooting death of michael brown. in addition, governor nixon has had to contend with what craig fugate, the administrator of fema, has said is one of the
worse tornadoes to ever hit the continental united states in joplin, missouri, in may 2011. a city of 50,000 people that involved 158 deaths and affected 7,000 homes. governor tom ridge, former governor tom ridge, or also known around dhs headquarters as homeland security one. as governor of the state of pennsylvania, a state of 12 million people, from 1995 to 2001 before becoming the first secretary of homeland security. governor ridge, like mayor giuliani and others, had to contend with a terrorist attack on 9/11 in shanksville, pennsylvania, where united flight 93 crashed.
33 passengers and seven crew were killed on that day when the plane crashed in the area of pennsylvania known as shanksville. governor ridge and i both attended the anniversary of 9/11 in shanksville, pennsylvania last year. governor deval patrick, former governor of massachusetts, former practicing lawyer, former assistant attorney general for civil rights in the department of justice, former general counsel of coca-cola. former general counsel of texaco. governor of the state of massachusetts from 2007 to 2015, a state of 6 1/2 million people. governor patrick had to contend on august 15th, 2013, with the boston marathon bombing at 2:49 in the afternoon on patriots
day, one of the best and brightest days in boston and in massachusetts each year, when two pressure cooker bombs exploded killing three people and wounding 260 at the boston marathon. 16 people lost their legs and in the immediate aftermath of that bombing, over 1,000 federal, state and local law enforcement officers were brought to bear leading to the ultimate death, and then the ultimate arrest, prosecution and conviction of the tsarnaev brothers. governor patrick had to deal with the 100-year blizzard, ice storms, water main breaks that dealt with the water supply to millions of people. last but not least, mayor ryback served for three terms from 2002 to 2014.
by trade he has been a journalist and a commercial real estate agent, investor in commercial real estate, a publisher. he spent time on the internet. he has written a book called "confidential." a guide book for mayors. and on august 1st, 2010, in his city, they had to contend with the collapse of the i-35 west bridge over the mississippi river, killing 13 people, injuring 145, and damaging 111 vehicles that day when a bridge over which an estimated 140,000 vehicles pass a day. mayor ryback is today the director of a not-for-profit called generation next which strives toward educational excellence in the minneapolis area. he has also had to deal with
tornadoes in may 2011 and august 2009, and other disasters. so we've assembled these public servants to talk to us not so much about the nuts and bolts of disaster response, who you call, who you call at fema, disaster declarations and so for the. but the broader issue of how to lead and how to react as a leader in times of all manner of crisis. so having said all that, let me turn the floor over to our distinguished guests, panelists, and let me start working from my immediate left with governor dan malloy. >> thank you, mr. secretary. thank you for what you're doing in this phase of your career and what you've accomplished over the entirety of your career. so it is great to be with you. i'm actually looking at all of you and having heard the introductions and how unlucky we
are, i wonder what you're doing in the audience. quite frankly. but secretary called a couple of months ago and said would i talk about my experience at sandy hook and super storm sandy and irene. in point of fact on the natural disaster side, we've had 6 natural disaster since i became governor of connecticut, all weather related, which speaks to climate change and what's occurring and what it is to be a governor in the time of climate change. i think what i'll start with, as sandy hook has been described one of the most heinous acts ever committed and certainly in a school where we lost so many young children and adults who cared for them. and there's nothing in life that prepares you for something like that.
but i think from that experience and other experiences earlier in my life when i was mayor, and now through the time that i've been governor, there are a couple of things that i would share with you. i think everyone of the folks up here would agree, when you're handling a crisis, the crisis isn't about you. if it is, you got a problem. and you should never make it about you. there are people who are hurting out there. in my case -- and you might know some of the story -- all of the children and teachers had been evacuated from the school which was on top of the hill to the firehouse that was down at the bottom of the hill. by the time i had gotten there from hartford, everyone who was going to be reunited that day had already been reunited. so the only people left in the firehouse were people who didn't know for sure that their loved one had passed. protocols, i tell this story about it. the protocols for a lot of police departments and
organizations is you never tell someone that they've lost their loved one until you've actually identified the body. and we weren't in a position to troopers, who's going to tell these folks? and they kept explaining that that's not the way they did it. and i let that go on a little longer than i should have. but eventually i intervened, and got everyone together in a group and said that i'm sorry that i have to tell you this, but you're here. if you're in this room, and you haven't been reunited with your loved one today, you're not going to be. what we then did to react to that situation then and beyond i think changed and perhaps even saved some lives. for instance, we assigned every family a police officer or trooper to protect them at least through the time of the funeral.
by 10:00 that night, we had already assigned a mental health professional with respect to each of the families to be available, to call upon them, to offer services, and then to the broadest community the next day we set up centers. we had begun the work of breaking down silos and state government long before sandy hook had happened, and in part because of some of the natural disasters that we had had. it really shown itself that day, we had people from every single department that had anything possible to do with that shooting in any way in recovery, investigation, protection, everyone just knew what they had to do when they arrived. we were well practiced. not for that incident. but for others. i think that's another lesson that everyone has to learn as that is to be well practiced in these circumstances. i think my experience as a mayor at the time of 9/11 where we
lost a lot of the citizens who -- and some folks who i knew very well down in new york, or other disasters that we had had to face, including irene and sandy, really strengthened our response and made us better responders. i started by saying it is not about you. i think there is this communication side of managing one of these disasters. i wouldn't speak to the press until after everyone knew what the circumstances were for their loved one. and i only gave a very brief statement and basically said that newtown had been visited by evil that day and that we needed to do further investigation and cut it pretty short and didn't do a whole lot of interviews on that one. that's a different type of it circumstance particularly when you know that people are grieving and you don't want to add to that grief by something
you're going to say or have misconstrued. so we were very careful about that. that's a very different situation than when you're dealing with natural disaster. in my state we had portioned of the state without power. this was in new england for up to 12 days. those people do need to hear from you. you've got to be part of their daily life. they've got to know when you're going to update them on what their prospects are for recovery from the damage to their house or home or city or town or when they're going to be able to take the next shower. so they are two very different types of circumstances. one requiring constant communication, in my opinion, and one where you have to be a little bit afraid of communication for the damage that you might otherwise do. those are a couple of quick thoughts that i thought i'd bring to the table. then perhaps if we're answering your questions or take other questions i can say a few other things. >> governor nixon.
>> thank you. thank you for bringing everybody together. i'll try to keep my comments short, focus on the leadership side because the actual management is -- training helps, as governor malloy said, and others. i went down to work out in the basement of the mansion on may 21st, 2011. about 5:15. i get ready to get on the elliptical because the game i wanted to watch was coming on so i could simulate a workout while watching the game. [ laughter ] >> works for me. >> so my counsel called me and said you might switch to the weather channel. looks like some really bad storms coming to joplin. and so i turn on the weather channel. back and forth between that and the game. and sure enough, i mean right there. you see the three cells heading right towards the very populated area of our state. everything kind of went dark. he called back later. the bottom line is an ef-5 tornado
came in, killed 161 people, put 1,100 people in hospitals. 11,500 cars completely destroyed. a hospital hit and out of it. it was just amazing. so the three things i always say in these situations is first of all, separating response from recovery is really important. on front end there's still a lot of response to do. we had a situation where the unaccounted for list was taken over by folks outside of our control for a while and people were saying over 1,500 people missing when in reality there weren't that many. we had to get that back and get back in the situation. we had a second tornado come through. at one point we had 405 law enforcement agencies working cooperatively in joplin at the same time, state, federal and from almost six different states. so the bottom line is that recovery piece later on. always got to be in the back of your head. response is one thing, but it is not over when the response is
over. it is not over when the sun comes out. so in the back of your head even when you're there you got to think recovery. my three pieces of advice, one, get there and get your own eyes on it. if you're in charge of it, you better see it. it is not going to do very well on the phone or watching a game. as dannel also said, it sends a message of strength. when the governor is there, that means 6 million missourians are there. people almost feel relaxed knowing that you care and are there with them. one, get there. two is try to coordinate response where you can but generally in response you've got a lot of trained law enforcement personnel. they're very good at it. you're trying to coordinate them, not get in their way. but begin talking about recovery, at least think about recovery in your own head because for me what i didn't want to have happen in joplin is what happened in greenwood, kansas. had a tornado hit it and a years later only 20% of the people were left. it is real easy in this country, they take your house, your school, your hospital, your car, it is pretty easy to move somewhere else.
i'm proud to say, as we come on the fifth anniversary of joplin, i'm proud to say we have more people than before, the schools and houses have been rebuilt. the unemployment rate of the community is a full point below the national average. all of the first response requires your personal attention. that speaks volumes when you are speaking for all of the people in your state. >> governor ridge. >> well, homeland security one says thank you to hs four. i appreciate the invitation and to be joined by these very distinguished colleagues. shortly after i ended about 30 years of government service from the time i was a sergeant in vietnam to a cabinet secretary, i thought about writing a book on leadership. and somebody said, what do you think you can do to contribute to the library of congress? they already have several thousand volumes on it. so forget about it. but you've given me the opportunity to talk a little bit more specifically about
leadership and crisis and i'm grateful for that. my inoculation in this world happened as a young congressman. it was in the end of may in 1985 when three much smaller tornadoes bounced around three different communities in my congressional district. interesting, one clock in the northern community stopped at 5:10. a clock in the southern community stopped at 7:11. so the 2:01 minute, you got tornadoes bouncing around. obviously as a governor you have to deal with more often than not natural weather problems. there are some environmental challenges we had and a few business-related crises. then finally as secretary johnson pointed out, 9/11 and shanksville. so based on those experiences, i'd offer just a couple of preliminary thoughts.
at the time of crisis, i think those who have leadership responsibility need to do a couple things immediately. it's absolutely essential to get as much information as you can but understand completely that you will not have total situational awareness probably for several days. i just think of what happened on 9/11. my mother was in the hospital. i took down coffee and doughnuts. she didn't like that hospital food very much. i'm pulling into the driveway, state policeman at the time explains one plane has been hit, then i get inside, second one hit the twin towers. i'm talking on the phone because the second thing you need to do is hopefully as a leader you've anticipated a crisis. i called my team in harrisburg and because of my experience back in 1985, you better believe that pennsylvania had a very modern, very modern, up to date emergency operation center. because when you accept a leadership responsibility like we have, you just have to anticipate it is going to occur.
it is just going to happen so to your point, response and recovery is important, but part of leadership in crisis, hopefully if you've been there long enough, you get as much information as you can and you already have some level of preparedness. the first thing i tried to do, what do we know about there? well guess what -- we knew nothing. so you just have everybody in place at the operation center. you try to get as much information as you can. obviously i had to deal with the press in erie, pennsylvania which is my hometown. i took a couple hours to get clearance to get to harrisburg. went to the eoc. made sure we had everything going there. we started evacuating some tall buildings in philadelphia and pittsbbviñ then hopped on a chinook and made my way to shanksville. so you anticipate you're going to be confronted with a crisis. you try to get as much information as you can. i think the first primary rule -- and i suspect that my colleagues will agree with me -- your presence as soon as
possible is absolutely critical. people don't expect you to know everything that's going on, but they expect you to care enough to be there, to re-assure them that you will get as much information as you possibly can and based on that information which you will share with them publicly, you will work with them, their communities, whoever else is involved to try to resolve the issue, what's ever been confronted. 9/11 it took us quite some time to figure out what transpired. but whether you show up at a site of a tornado, awful massacre in a school, 9/11, presence hopefully inspires confidence, generates some level of comfort and reassurance, and then obviously you work -- that's just the beginning of leadership crisis management. i can't think of anything more
important than projecting with your presence a calm, reassuring message. and unfortunately, under those circumstances, everybody's discussed here, you better be available for the next several days because your communication responsibility doesn't end with that particular day when the crisis surfaces. the more you learn, the more you share. at the same time, as the governor pointed out, you better be concentrating on the responses and the recovery capabilities. be there, reassure, generate confidence. they know you don't have all the information but they conclude you care and you're there because of the victims. and that's the first step in response and recovery, in my judgment. >> governor patrick. >> thank you, mr. secretary. thank you for having me today. two observations as you get down to this end of the panel. first of all, that every one of
the important points has been made. i'm going to make them again. the second is that you're down at the end here where we are out of office so you're at the more relaxed end of the panel. [ laughter ] on patriots day is a big deal in boston. we have have the marathon happening for a long, long time and it's a kind of -- it has been described as a statewide block party. we had an uncommonly beautiful day on the day that the bombs went off at the marathon. the governor has a customary and traditional role at the boston marathon which is to crown the female elite winner. normally the mayor crowns the male elite winner, but the mayor at the time was in the hospital and not able to be there. he and i visited in his hospital room that morning and asked me to do those honors.
so by noon or 12:30 i had crowned the two winners and i had an uncommon day for my time as governor and the former governors and the former mayor will recognize it. i had no other appointments. i'm a gardener and i thought i'm going to go home and putter in my garden. so i had a workout. i got a haircut and i was heading home when my youngest daughter called and said, dad, i'm down in the back bay and there was just a big boom and everybody's running. what's going on? i said i don't know. but stay out of the way. and shortly after that, the trooper who was driving me got a call and then my phone rang. and from the head of our emergency management services who was down at the finish line and with whom i had been through any number of significant crises and it was the first time i had ever heard him really shaken. he said governor, you need to get down here, something very wrong has happened.
102 hours later, i want to say, both perpetrators had been identified, one was dead and the other was under arrest. none of the people who were injured at the site who many many, many of whom had life threatening illnesses, who got to hospital died. in other words, everyone who got to hospital survived. and survived life threatening illnesses. two take-aways for me. one, preparation is everything. we had done tabletops. coordinating with the hospitals. who should triage what kinds of injuries in the event of a catastrophe. and that plan went right into effect. i want to tell you that the first person was in surgery i think it was nine minutes after the first bomb went off. that's the first. the second -- and you've heard a
variant of that observation from each of my colleagues here. the second has to do with the importance of making decisions knowing your information is incomplete. right? which is you do everything you can to gather information. i don't think any governor who has dealt with a crisis is so foolish as to think that all decisions rest -- or even most decisions rest with the governor. most of what you have to do is make sure that the space is made wide enough for the professionals to do their job and that you're gathering what you need to help them do their job. but you will never have perfect information and there's still decisions that have to be made. and getting to that level of confidence is no small task. maybe we can talk about that a little bit more when we get into the questions and answers. thank you again.
>> mayor rybak. >> thank you, mr. secretary. i imagine like most people up here, i didn't run to manage crises. i wanted to make minneapolis the great city of our time and create all sorts of other wonderful things. but the primary that i won was on 9/11. all of a sudden as somebody who had never been in office before, this huge new responsibility fell on me. fortunately for minneapolis and for the people i represent, fema was offered to bring 70 of us in my brand-new administration out to mount weather, where we did three days of preparedness training. mr. secretary, i should thank you for that because it was tremendous. i as somebody who had come up through consensus leadership, people around a table sharing ideas, had to be in command. it was the first time i had ever
been in a command and control structure. as a tabletoped being a mayor in crisis, it was a whole different way of directing. i could see that police and fire reacted one way and the health department people very differently. getting those two cultures together mattered. that mattered a lot because one of the things we did is we -- part of the scenario was a bridge happened to collapse. we didn't have a piece of equipment that was tall enough to reach there so we bought that equipment again with homeland security dollars and when the 35w bridge did collapse in minneapolis, the first piece of equipment was that equipment that we bought because of the preparedness that we had. and that was critically important. but it also -- about an hour after that collapse where we were doing many tactical things i recognized that there are really two parts of a leader that have to be used. one is that tactical command and control leadership so your whole team is moving forward. but the other is the human side of it. you are there, i believe, more than anything else as an elected
official. i think governor nixon, you said it, to say that the entire community is there. you need to go to the scene right away. so about an hour after bridge collapsed i was in the family center putting families together, building the rips that would continue as my wife and i went to everyone of the funerals, as we built partnerships over in the next couple years so that people who rightfully had huge concerns were kept together. it was also something that was really a call to arms for a lot of mayors when katrina happened because all of the training we had up to that point had been very tactical about things and moving equipment and plans. katrina was the real ah-ha that this is also about people. it was also about disparity. when a tornado hit north minneapolis, the part of our city that is most impacted in any economic calamity every day and it hit exactly where the disparities were worst in my city. we knew it wasn't just moving things around, it was
recognizing that these weren't all people who owned that home. these weren't all even people who knew who owned that home. these were people who couldn't wait for reimbursement for two weeks because that would actually have them lose that home or that job. so there were huge other set of issues. and katrina i think helped us undo all of those plans in a right way. but i think more than anything else that i learned, besides preparedness which was hugely important, was to be present. whenever anything happened in my city, i showed up. i didn't know a lot and it showed, i think. but the one thing that nobody could ever say is that i wasn't there. and i do think that presence is really important. i think it is also really important to recognize that people in a crises need people to understand different cultures, different philosophies. when the bridge collapses, a person from pretty much every constituency in our community was on that bridge. i think the issue of common
ground with dramatically different people sharing that ground is something that i think is your primary responsibility. >> okay. thank you. couple of questions. let me start with governor malloy. you drew an interesting contrast between an ongoing crisis like a power outage and a single event like a mass shooting that's over in minutes and then having to deal with the aftermath of that. and you said that in the ongoing situation, it is important that people hear from you sooner rather than later because these are people who are desperate, they need help, they need guidance, they need to know that their leaders are there to help them get through this. and you made a point of saying that in a shooting situation,
you would not appear publicly on the press until every victim's family had been informed. at least i think that's what you said. curious as to why -- you seem to be pretty firm in that conviction. i guess i wanted to know why you felt that way. obviously that could not have been the case on 9/11, for example. so tell us why you feel so strongly about it. >> every day we're more connected. and so if i had said anything outside the firehouse, people in the firehouse would have known it. so i knew that the questions people would want to know is how many dead there are and where are they and i just knew that there would be so many questions. i'm in a room full of survivors, families, and everyone has a phone and everyone has a device and everyone's communicating outside and inside.
i had this conflict, at least this initial period of time. in fact the president called and said, before we had resolved everything, he said, dan, i know what's going on, he said are you ready to make a statement? i said no, mr. president, i'm not. we don't have enough information and we haven't put all of what we need to do together. he said, okay, i'll hold off. i'll wait or whatever i do say will be just about how sorry we are. so i just think that i was presented the situation where all of the survivors were in one place and they didn't know what their status was. so it is a very different set of circumstances. and i also -- i thought with that amount of grief, not simply by the families who had lost their loved one, but by the broader community, that there was precious little that i could add in the immediacy after the event that was going to really resolve any of that.
so i'm not a big waste-word type of guy. when i say it is not about me, i think the worst thing you can do as a leader, and a political leader, is to make it about you. i have seen people -- i won't say -- in different circumstances. certainly not anyone here -- who have crossed over that line and made it about them. and in doing so made it worse, not better. so i'm a big believer in avoiding that. every once in a while we'll get a small tornado. so every other natural disaster for the most part we have prewarning. well, listen, you've got to be communicating before the event happens. in fact, i'll tell you this. i did a briefing to the press two weeks ago. some of the press said why are you even talking about this malady, it hasn't presented
itself. i said, i want you to be ready. so i think there are different ways to communicate that which might happen, or that which has happened, but which can be defined differently as a natural disaster or something that was -- you know, wasn't caused by one very sick individual taking out that many children, first graders in a school. so i just thought i had to at least -- if i was a survivor, i'd have the right balance. if the other responders were going to survive it, they needed the right balance and i wanted to represent that. >> four of you have stressed the importance of being there at the scene, as soon as possible, which i happen to agree with. i'm sure each of you know that the natural inclination of your
staffs is to keep you sort of in the chair away from the press immediately, at your office, at the command center, and not go out to the scene, to the street, to the bridge, to the locality when you're away from them and you're not in a position to govern them effectively. so i guess the question is, is there a drawback to being too close, in effect, where you're not necessarily getting the big picture at a critical moment when leadership is needed? so i wanted to ask the four of you to comment on that. >> i think secretary ridge got it right, you're very naturally curious as to what happened. because the information is never really very good. so the closer you get to it, the more you feel like if something that actually saw something is there, you might get some not just intelligence. the great thing about these jobs, even when you're close, you still have access to far-away information. you have people around you to do
that. but i think each condition is a little different. i remember one of the challenges we had in joplin was unaccounted for folks. so you had literally body bags out there that didn't match the number of folks that were missing because, quite frankly, they had pieces of bodies in them and all this sort of stuff. how do you deal with potential victims and folks that are missing when you have a town like joplin when the folks that were injured were taken as far away as tulsa, kansas city. i don't think if i was still in jeffers city -- jefferson city, i would have felt that angst if i had looked right in the eyes of some people that didn't know where their relatives were and were extremely appropriately emotional about it. one other thing. it may be odd. maybe it is just the way i operate. a day or two afterwards i always try to get the clergy together. people tell their preachers
stuff they don't tell their politicians. they'll talk about needs and cares there. some of the best intelligence i've ever gotten about what the human needs are and tragedies arising directly from members of clergy who have been literally sitting across the table from folks crying and in the middle of tragedies. >> i think there's a legitimate expectation from the men and women that put you in office that you will be front and center at the time of crisis. i don't have to worry about my staff. they'd push me out the door if i wasn't inclined to do so, and that's the right thing to do. it doesn't take a leader to cut a ribbon. it does take a leader to show up when something's gone bad, something's gone wrong. and i think -- so there's a legitimate expectation. those of us privileged to serve at the very high levels with
that responsibility, i sense from everybody's conversation, that we know when we appear, those, whether it's a school shooting, bridge collapse, 9/11, those present and those affected and given the media coverage which now is 24/7, national, international, people, whether they're there or not there, are going through a whole range of emotions. i mean, think of yourself on 9/11, you were shocked, you were angry, you were uncertain, you were anxious, in your heart of hearts calling for retribution even though against whom you were unsure where the retribution should be directed. i think all of us if we look back on those days, those were our emotions as well.
and so if you had the opportunity to convey to those present, those not present but effective, the larger audience, that you are part of that group. you understand it. you have an additional responsibility. this is what i think all of us probably embraced. you're there to oversee whenever remedial or reconstructive measures need to be put in place. to a certain extent, i think it's important you're there because you're saying to that audience, large or small, i'm accountable. i am accountable. good or bad, i am accountable. i'm always reminded of the letter that president who then general eisenhower had in his back pocket, when he basically said if the air, land troops don't do their job and there's some land to go around because we failed, i am accountable for the decision. so to a certain extent, not as dramatic as d-day, you show
up, you share those emotions. i'm sure you're projecting because it's natural but also saying to this group, i'm going to stay on top of this crisis, whatever it is, and i will be held and leaders should be held accountable. i think that's a very important message. a very reassuring message, in my judgment. >> secretary, i couldn't agree more about the importance that we've expressed about being present, and my team, much as secretary then-governor ridge described, understood from water main breaks and blizzards and the rest that i wanted to be present. for all of the reasons that have been described. but we had a very interesting first reaction, my team did, after the bombing, because when i got the news and was on the expressway heading home i said to the trooper, turn around, let get back there, they said we don't know if this is over, so we don't want to take you down to the scene. so we had this negotiation about are we going to the bunker,
which by the way was out in the suburbs, and not in the center of it all -- >> i've been to the bunker. >> i know you have. yes, you have. i think you helped pay for it, actually. >> i'm sure we did. >> you did. 0 whether we should go to the state house, viewed as a target, if there was still something under way. so, we all understood the importance of being present as quickly as possible, but in an active situation like a terrorist attack it wasn't obvious to my security team what being present meant in the first hour or so after the event. >> i think it's very, very possible for a leader to get in the way, in the community, but i think it's more possible to get in the way in the bunker with the tactical people doing the work. more important, you really have the figure out where you can
deliver value. and to me, having a human being representing the community there mattered a lot. for instance, a couple of hours after the bridge collapsed i was in the family center. a woman was there, her cousin, she was expecting, may have been there, in the water and she said, christine never left her house without full makeup on. she said i can't imagine how horrible it would be for the last image of christine to be decomposed coming out of the water. she said don't let that happen. i never would have thought of that. but the beautiful thing is, because she said that to me, we took great care. there was never a picture of any of those requests coming out of the water because she said that to me. jennifer holmes, whose husband died in it, said to me, my husband lived for baseball, his mit is in the back of the car, can you make sure we got the mit? we got the mit. and i'm really glad we got the mit. but that was only because that
was said to me. when the tornado hit i found this woman, older woman, in kind of like a housecoat, walking through this devastation and gas leaks and everything. i said what are you doing out here? she said there's my -- there's gas in my house, i have to get out. i said we've got to get you inside, it was raining. i walked her up on to this porch and said to this one woman, can she sit on your porch? and the woman looked at me indignantly and said she will not sit on my porch. i have to say, the woman at the house was african-american, the older woman was white, and i thought the worst. but the woman said she will not sit on my porch, she will sit in my living room. i'm really glad i was there to see that and that i can tell that about my city. it's also important, this does take a toll, to a certain degree, when you throw yourself out like that. i talked to ministers a lot about that, they're constantly on the scene. the mass shooting happened near the end of my time and i had
just done a tour of this business. i knew the owner, everybody i knew was slaughtered. and the owner had made a big deal about me getting a picture taken with his son. when i heard about all these people dying i said, where is the son? he said, he's on a bus to go to madison so look at the college and sent somebody to find him before the news got to him. these things don't leave you. what's important is people up and down the pipeline get moments and you're there to absorb that instead of someone else. >> one observation. i want to go back to governor patrick's observation. i think those of us privileged to serve in leadership roles, leadership in crisis does mean, however, from day one you have to be prepared for the ultimate crisis. and one of the reasons i think that the state of massachusetts and boston strong was that, i knew ed davis,
commissioner of police, mayor menino. i knew the governor long before that had placed resources and took the time to prepare for a mass casualty, a major event. you don't know whether it will be a terrorist attack, mother nature, you don't know whether it be a horrible accident or some kind. those communities and states that take time to prepare, as you did -- i mean i read a lot of great stories, governor, about how beautifully and magnificently your community responded from the time of injury to the operating room in nine minutes, that does not happen unless roles and responsibilities are identified and practiced long before the incident occurs. so, i think those who have the opportunity to serve ultimately, leadership roles, should be prepared and anticipate, you don't know when, you don't know
the nature, there are a couple of things you do know. you better not be unprepared. i would rather, in any situation, face the backlash of having spent money being overprepared and the disaster didn't occur, they didn't need to use those resources, than underprepared. i think leaders, as all of us had the privilege to be secretary, need to have that mind-set because of it's just nature of the world we live in. too much uncertainty. only thing to be certain about, doing your tenure, a crisis or two, and you're going to have to handle it. >> governor nixon, you obviously had to contend with the situation in ferguson, civil unrest, and the unique aspect there is it's an unfolding situation and you're never exactly sure where it's going to go, how bad it's going to get, how long it's going to last. and you have to make decisions in that context. so what advice would you have in
that kind of situation? >> it's very defined. i remember like yesterday, a sunday, i get the "post dispatch" at the governor's manages there, and it had this picture of a young man that had been shot and killed the day before. unfortunately, in these jobs, that picture's in the paper a lot of days. and murders happen in a lot of ways, not often were the shooter had a uniform on and that made it, but you see that, you see the pronouncement on the front page, and as afternoon went on you saw the intensity level build up so the next morning, first call i made to the local prosecutor, the sheriff, county executive to say we're going to have to get the justice department in to have two investigations going at the same time here. you can feel it without even being there. then i went on in, i went by what it was, that night went to a and you could feel the energy coming at ya. there was a whole lot of pent-up years, quite frankly, not just
there, but around america, of a relationship from cops and especially young african-americans that just didn't feel right. mr. secretary, you can just sense. we established what we talked about was two pallars: safety and speech. folks were going to speak, i don't think anybody that watched anything in ferguson noticed any lack of first amendment being used in all sorts of ways. but the safety part is important. we began studying what happened in riots around the country. if you look after rodney king, over 50 people were killed after. detroit, dozens killed. other places. the one thing i can say, we didn't get a kent state situation, and between that time and the time of the final time of resolution, some 2 1/2 months later there wasn't a single shot fired by a cop that hit the citizen there, nor was a cop shot by a citizen. i know that's a low standard for government service, you make it through a day without shooting someone or being shot, in that
situation, that's how basic some of the days were. because we just knew we were going to have to take a heck of a lot of angst. when you take decades of intensity, you knew there was going to be continued, continued, bad feelings until this was resolved and even after resolved there were going to be bad feelings. i'm very proud of the work the local law enforcement did, we had to speed up shifts because officers on the front line get yelled at, things thrown at them. they need to get off the front line after that. you can't do an eight-hour shift after that. we had to -- but the other part about that is that the layers of government, to be very challenging, plus the dynamics of the press. i'm not one that complains about the press especially with cameras rolling. >> this is your chance, go ahead. >> i was going to put that -- >> no, that's fine. they've got a job to do, too. their budgets are getting cut worse than ours.
but sometimes a story will start getting written before it happens. you see, in a tornado, once we had to seal off the area, because we wanted to make sure we were getting a search done and found all of the bodies and everyone says you're violating rights, you can't go in and look at the area. we had to deal with that. in ferguson, all sorts of local issues that would spur up though were operating under rules of engagement what you were going to do local jurisdiction, you have a hundred different towns, all sorts of people popping up and saying all sorts of stuff. you just don't have time to be an editor, a producer, and a principal. you've got to do what you're going to do and figure out the press will take care of itself later in some situations. >> several of you -- >> i wasn't overly critical. >> deval will pick up the ball from there. >> pretty graceful. >> i'm getting to that question. several of you have mentioned the value of tabletop exercises,
training. in your experience, is the principal value more of a mechanical one so that your people know what levers to pull, what frequency to dial, or is it more principally an issue of exercising your decision making ability? what would you say? >> i want to be very quick. i'll let the secretary -- i remember after all of the stuff, 9/11, anthrax, we did a tabletop, health and human services where actually that tabletop pretty quickly get to, if you don't close the door and keep people in the building you're going to let people out to kill others and it gets way beyond the mechanicals and to the moral very quickly. >> you want to add something? >> no, i think there were so many different agencies with capabilities and so many
different leaders of those agencies that had to coordinate, in the case of almost every crisis we had to deal with when i was in office, building relationships with those folks, having them understand how you make decisions and my understanding how they make decisions, and where -- who was going to make which kinds of decisions, that's -- there's a muscle memory you get from going through a few of those kinds of situations and certainly practicing it. and it was enormously important. by the way, in the case of the medical response, the hospital response during the bombing, we -- marathon bombing -- we had developed that plan with the hospitals. but i wasn't at all of the table tops. the hospitals did that. and they went into, you know, into -- it's not quite autopilot but they executed. so i think it was -- i think the tabletops were important. they don't answer everything but you build relationships and
understandings of information flow and that sort of thing which is helpful in real time. >> the thing i would say is, i've been involved in tabletop exercises for a long time, certainly going back to post 9/11 as mayor and then as governor. it's not a single one where i didn't learn something and there's not a single one where everybody else didn't learn something, because we ask everybody about those. that's number one. so this is an ongoing educative experience in which you're augmenting your ability to respond. pretty good for very little money. they're not terribly expensive. that's number one. one other thing i want to say. and you have to be engaged in doing them on an ongoing basis because personnel changes, all right? so you have a chief who has 27 years on, maybe three more years out of him or one more year out of him, he's gone. whoever replaces him has a lot of experience but may not have done that job. it's true in every one of the
departments or groups that you would bring. so if you're not doing tabletop exercises regularly, then you're throwing away the contributions that those things have made to your experiences on prior occasions. >> you know, it's a really interesting moment right now with what these tabletops are. i can't tell you how much we benefited from what happened because of 9/11 giving us the ability to do it. but we've learned a lot and the climate is changing a lot in the country. katrina was a seminal moment for these efforts and i'm so glad that our community basically rethought our entire preparedness strategy after katrina because the tornado was about disparity as much as destruction. what we did also have happen,
because tabletops connected with some very generous homeland security dollars, happened at same time massive cut backs from both state and federal governments in things like the cops program and other things like that. we wound up having a lot of equipment and not a lot of community outreach and you have to put these two things together. it's easier to deconstruct that in retrospect. i think it would be impossible for people to have known back then what would happen now. if you think about what happened with police departments in america, you can get all of the equipment you wanted, it seemed. but you couldn't get a cop going out and building relationship in the community because this was getting cut back. and that has had consequences. and i don't think it's anyone's fault. i just think it's really important for us to put that issue that not all issues are the same when we cross race an economic and cultural alliance. >> in almost every one of these situations, one has to deal with
a blizzard of misinformation in the immediate aftermath that you hear through rumor, through your staffs, and even through the press. any of you have any advice about how one sorts out, sorts through, misinformation versus information on which you have to make decisions? >> yeah. i'll try to respond to that. i think, thinking back to days, secretary, when i was privileged to serve where you are now, we pulled together a group of journalists, broadcast journalists and media folks in one room and some of us from homeland security and the other, and we had, i think, frank sesno moderated almost like a tabletop between the department and the media, because they're
critical in terms of how you get the information out, the information you get out, whether they never want to be called a partner, media doesn't want to be called partners to anybody in government, regardless of where you're on the political spectrum, they have a role to play, a very important and critical role. and it was interesting, one of the conclusions i drew from that is, one, the enormous impact they have, if they choose to get an expert, and i saw a couple of times in my tenure who put on the wrong information. and so i think even if you don't have a lot to say or you can't give them the kind of specific information they're looking for, you simply better be out in front talking to them about your work that you're doing as well as your commitment to getting more and more information to continue to inform the public. but leadership in crisis requires an availability to journalists because they have a
significant role to play, and if you don't fill that void as leader, and that's one of the advantages of the tabletop, who is going to speak for this group? i see my friend, admiral allen, who did such a marvelous job in response to katrina. once he got down there he had a significant presence on television, telling everybody what they were doing and it was a very reassuring presence. and the more information he had, the more information he shared. if you are, as a leader in crisis, if you're not out there on a regular basis -- that's why it's not the first day, it's the second, third, and forward -- >> except, tom. >> -- we had well intentioned people. >> we all live in fear of getting out there and saying something that's wrong, right? >> you are never going to have total situational awareness until the very, very end when it is all said and done. all i know is if you're not out there on a regular basis and identified with accountability for the situation, you may find
there will be misleading or misinformation put out there and you have to do everything you can to push back against that. >> governor malloy? >> real quickly, i think that before you have all of the information, i think you have to tell people, based on what we now know, it is our belief, and i think a lot of folks think leadership is that you have to go out and tell people, you know, and only give them one direction to go in or one thought, and i think it's much more effective, particularly over something that you know is going to hang over your community for a period of time, to just be honest, you know? press asks the question, may be a fair question, may be unfair question, you still have to answer it and answer it and say, based on what we -- all of those sorts of things, and don't cross over -- don't allow your own desire to look strong to overcome what you know you need to do, and that is to put modifying language out there, so
that if you have to change, you change. the best example of that, i will tell you, and you know, sitting up here, it like flashbacks come back, this happened and that happened. one of the big storms that caused power to be out of state, big parts of the state for a extended period of time during very hot weather, not great, one of the utility companies made a promise that they were going have all of the power on by x date, five days, four days, i don't remember, at least five or six days. they are saying it, i'm the governor, okay, that's what they're saying. by day three i'm looking at numbers and looking at what ability they have to marshal resources because those storms hit a bunch of states, i said, you're not
going to meet the date. he says, no, we are. i said, no, i don't think you are. and i didn't go public with that, but i stopped allowing him to appear at the podium when i was there and then finally, when -- one time he got up to say this thing, i didn't want to have a public fight, when he got up to speak, i left the room. people figured out we weren't standing together any longer on this. i think you have to manage those situations because there are other people who are going to have a voice, a police chief, right, in the community. so i think you have to be -- you have to lead in different ways. body language is extremely important. modifying language is extremely important. final thing i want to say, you referenced whether we have a good or bad relationship with press, it doesn't make any difference. you're not communicating if you're not using the press. we all have warts. that means accepting the warts that other people have. let me tell you about the worst
experiencie i ever had, was to tell people what happened that day. second worst experience, relates to telling people things, we had -- not sure whether it was irene and sandy because they both walloped the heck out of our state, irene to a bigger extent, our state basically equal, terrible -- we had spent days telling people they had to evacuate from low lying areas along long island sound, we spent days telling them, begging them to do. the storm's going along. it doesn't appear to be taking off terribly badly. then i get a report more water has accumulated in the western long island sound, because it's a big funnel, the sound opens to the atlantic, and then it gets very narrow down where i'm from, stamford, greenwich, into new york, more water flowed at a faster rate than ever recorded. and all of a sudden i had to make a choice, do i tell people to continue the process of
evacuating which i had been telling them for days or change that message? and we decided to change the message because we believed evacuating that point would be more dangerous than staying in place and getting to the highest level a la katrina. and we had to change that message on a dime and had to convey it we had to have it stick and we did it. and i am convinced to this day that changing that message in that period of time getting it out, having it backed up, by the media, by everyone who could get that message out, actually saved lives. so i was in the midst of it and we made a decision and it was a change and we saved lives. sometimes you've got to do that. >> one observation, i recall -- this is very relevant to our discussion at this particular point -- you all probably t!2k remember right after 9/11 a series of anthrax incidents, and
i had been in the white house for maybe a week or two, i'm still trying to figure out which door to come in and out. i'm there and i have responsibility for this. we got multiple people within the federal government, multiple organizations that had some sliver of jurisdiction or responsibility over the issue, response recovery, the fbi, cdc, and people are having press conferences all over the place. and, frankly, we finally one evening we got the primary players into the roosevelt room and said from this point forward, we're going to operate, i'll hold the press conference, not that i knew it all, and we'll just coordinate our public message together. leadership in crisis, somebody has to be the focal point, the connectivity with the broader audience. and the last thing you need, whether governor, mayor, whoever you are, secretary, is having multiple agencies in your
enterprise giving multiple press conferences and holding multiple hearings because the cacophony, remember, you're supposed to be reassuring people, you're supposed to be projecting confidence and capability, and i got this under control. when you have multiple people doing crisis under your jurisdiction, giving not necessarily different messages but cacophony of different messaging, it's a real problem. leaders have to control that. that's what governor patrick did so well in massachusetts, by and large, he was the face of the response of recovery. >> i was going to thank you for that commercial. >> you did a good job. >> we had that experience of multiple agencies, state, local, federal, all convening at the marathon bombing site, all wanting to help, all having something to contribute. and based on experience i've had actually in washington, when i was head of the civil rights
division, we were having this rash of attacks on black churches and synagogues in the south and trying to coordinate in that case the fbi and atf, it was incredibly important to say to everybody, you all have a role but we'll have one agency in charge of the investigation. and one person in charge of the public communication. we went around and caucused that, agreed who it was going to be. i looked at everybody in the eye and had them say, yes, i'm in. and on the whole, it helped. i want to give a slightly other experience around imperfect information and communicating, i got a call, i want to say, at 1:00 in the morning on friday morning, so the marathon's on monday, on friday morning the first call saying that there had been a shoot-out in the watertown community outside of boston and it was supposed, at that point, that the tsarnaev brothers were involved and it was happening, it was under way.
and i got calls every hour for the next few with additional information about the shooting of the m.i.t. security officer, about the fact that the older tsarnaev brother was dead, that we had a transit officer who was shot and that the younger brother was in flight. and so the question came at about 5:00, to me, do we suspend t. service, the t. is our transit service, into and out of the community that had been cordoned off for search at daybreak. since it only involved a bus line, that was pretty easy to do. and i said, great, we'll come down to the scene, to the new command post in watertown at 6:00 and announce when the service is supposed to start. all good. i'm getting ready to go, heading out the door. next call comes, we have -- we
have reports of a taxi that did a pickup in the watertown neighborhood around the time the suspect was lost, that then went to south station in time for the first train, amtrak out of boston to new york. next call, we stopped a taxi in the fenway area of boston with an explosive device in the trunk, we've detained the driver, and we're trying to determine whether this was the taxi that did the earlier drop off and what the driver's connection is. next call comes, the federal authorities down by the federal courthouse at waterfront are in pursuit of somebody down by the courthouse who fits the description of the suspect. you have all of this information and the question then was, how do we surgically close down the t. so there isn't an escape route? what is the way to protect
everybody if we have an unfolding situation, but not enough actual facts to report that publicly without setting off a panic. and that was the basis on which we decided to ask people to de shelter in place, which was a pretty big call. and turns out to have been a very helpful one, a whole lot of levels. but not without its critics. >> dan, let me ask you a hard question. and i know there's no good answer. but given your experience, what is the best way or at least the least worst way to tell a group of your citizens that their child, their parent, their brother has been killed?
>> so we -- i had reached the conclusion that i had to tell them and that nobody else would. and everyone's there. so i did a quick tour of the rest of the fire house, and there was a building next door. and thinking, well, maybe we could pull people out one family at a time, or small groups. and there was no place to do it in the firehouse. the bays were -- trucks had already been moved out and the bays had been taken over for emergency response. and so i left the building to walk to i don't know maybe 200 yards so an adjoining building to say, well, maybe we can move people there and then we'll inform them and they can go home
from there. and no sooner had i left the building and people started to surround me, most of them press. and they were just doing their job. not being critical. they were doing their job. and i suddenly realized that there was a -- that the only way that this could conclude and these folks could get on with back to their own surviving children or to other loved ones or support network was that you were going to have to do it en masse, and that's absolutely the worst way to do it. so. >> let me ask the rest of you, and open-ended question that you can answer any way you choose. in a crisis like this, what role do you think religion should play? >> i'm a huge believer that it
plays a vital role. as you've just seen from dan and all of us, there's no way to explain in directly stark human terms what these stoorts of this mean to people's lives and their futures. and if you don't have somebody -- if people have the spirit they can call on, it's going to help you. there is no way to do it without having the clergy with you. at some level. >> one thing that i think is important is that it's important to speak values. and it's important to find where there are universals. when you're dealing with death, you know, any of these incidents or others, i find that the one commonality is that the most difficult thing in death is finality. i will never see this person again. and if you look across a lot of religious experiences there are many ways to deal with that
issue. and often in a situation where i would be one-on-one with somebody and i was facing death and i was there a lot, i would go there somehow. it can be as complex and theological and religious as they are with god. it can be you have memories, there are multiple things in between all of that. but if you're in a one-on-one conversation with somebody facing death, i do think there's a way to speak to faith in a way that can speak to somebody who's deeply, deeply faithful in a classical sense or somebody who's very spiritual or somewhere in all of that. but it is important to acknowledge that. i think the idea of death is an ungodly complicated thing. and my father died when i was a kid. and so i was confronted with death early. and i've dealt with death a lot. and i do think for people of faith it's deeply helpful. but i think that value can be
represented of people even who aren't necessarily faithful. >> secretary, we had a -- an interfaith service three days after the bombing, which i think was incredibly important to me, it was important to our;x-? community. it was a big part of our healing. i had an opportunity to speak at that service. and i talked about both religious faith and civic faith. i think the civic faith point for us in our community was also e numerously important. because there was an opportunity, in some respects a natural way in which people could easily tender on each other at a time like that when what we needed was people to turn to each other. and we talked about that. we talked about how the community had helped solve the
crime, had help ed helped suppo survivo survivors, reunited runners with their families when the race was stopped midstream. how enormously important all of that was to our recovery and how it had to last, you know, once the tv cameras had gone home. so i'm not sure i would answer the question just about religion, although as a person of faith that is important to me. and many in our communities and we had an interfaith worship in our house for that reason. but civic faith binds us all and i think this is what i think the mayor was saying and was equally meaningful for all of us. >> yeah. i think first of all hopefully when you're confronted as a leader in that you can draw on your own faith, because that's a pretty difficult -- very
difficult circumstances. if nothing else you've got to ask for the strength to be strong in the face of the tragedy that everybody else is facing in a very real way. i like the illusion, i think, to both civic faith and personal faith. however you project i think it's a great time to talk about both. faith in your creator regardless of where you are on the religious spectrum, in the midst of that horror and adversity i think you can be pretty well assured 99 out of 100 people are looking inward or upward to find some strength and message of faith. but you also need to project faith in their creator but also faith in their civic institutions that will all together community will get through this. but i think the first place you need to start with is yourself to be able to project that to give you the strength to say the
right thing, to do the right thing and then hopefully that combination of faith in both creator and your community as everybody here has done if you listen to these stories. faith in their community together for healing and recovery it's critically important. you need them both. >> okay. before we conclude, let me just point out that there are a lot of people in michigan today dealing with this exact thing right now in the aftermath of what happened yesterday. let me lead this group and the group here in a big round of applause for these conscientious terrific organization.
[ applause ] >> thank you all very much. this weekend on "newsmakers" irs commissioner john koskinen on efforts to revive the u.s. tax system. you can see that sunday at 10:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. eastern. american history tv on c-span3 feature programs that tell the american story. some of the highlights for this weekend include saturday night at 8:00 eastern on lectures in history, cornell university professor maria christina garcia on the united states refugee policy since world war ii, who qualifies as a refugee and how that's changed over the years. at 10:00 on reel america, our final program in our three-part
series on senator j. william fullbright's hearings investigating the united states' policies in vietnam. secretary of state dean rusk testifies on behalf of the johnson administration's actions in vietnam. his opening statement is followed by committee members questions. sunday morning at 10:00 on road to the white house rewind, the 1960 west virginia democratic primary debate between senators john f. kennedy of massachusetts, and hubert humphrey of minnesota. this was only the second televised presidential primary debate in history. >> the next president must arouse this nation to heroic deeds. he must courageously search for a lasting peace with justice and freedom. and he must understand the complexities of disarmament negotiations the workings of diplomacy the united nations. >> and because i believe strongly in my country and in its destiny, and because i believe the power and influence of the next president and h