tv Lectures in History CSPAN August 31, 2016 9:19am-10:34am EDT
work of nonviolence and demand an to end senseless killing everywhere. >> and the resolution for congress to impeach irs commissioner. >> house resolution will 8 it 28 impeaching john andrew koskinen for high crimes and misdemeanors. >> we'll review the expected congressional debate with susan ferrechio. join us thursday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span for congress this fall. >> coming up next on "lectures in history," paul matt talks about the interactions between european colonial powers and native-american tribes on the great plains during the 1700s. he describes the importance of owning horses and guns for determining which groups whether tribes or colonial settlers had the upper nand both trade and war. this class is about an hour and
ten minutes. >> let's go into -- let's go into this lecture about the great plains. as you know, unlike some of the classic early american history courses, we have a somewhat more expansive view of early america. and that includes the great plains and there is fun material to look at. the year is 1720 and the spanish is hear more and more about french activities coming out of louisiana and can d.a. particularly, they're hearing the rumors that french traders are moving west towards new mexi mexico. that they're aligned with weapons. so in 1720, the governor of new mexico sends an expedition east on to the plains to investigate. led by 45 spaniards and 60 indians who go out.
they probably reach everything about this is encertain but they probably get into what is now western nebraska, the intersection of the plat and loop rivers. and they encounter a large group of indians who are probably pawnees as far as we can tell. the next -- they initially set up camp. they negotiate. there is no initial effort by the spanish to cause any trouble. the next morning they attack the span wish arrows and muskets. so they're heavily armed. about two-thirds of the spanish are killed in the battle. of the survivors, about six of them, half a dozen get back to santa fe. so it's basically a bit of a disaster for the spanish. and we're here under the hot lights. all right. the survivors contribute to a paintingst expedition. this is hard to see.
some of the indianses have bows and some have guns. there is one thung dhoent have and what do you think that is that is significant. what do you expect? >> horses. >> exactly. in 1720, the spanish are out on the plains attacked by indians who don't seem to have horses. i can see spanish fear of french expansion and spanish fear of french guns and french alliances with indians. you can seat absence of horses. in western nebraska this time and you also notice that a group of plains indians can defeat a spanish expedition pretty easily. they don't have an advantage on the plains at this time. in the aftermath of this
expedition, the span vish no desire to venture out on to the plains and have a repeat of this experience. so that's our first starting point. the second point has to do with a group of explorers. this is important as we go on but also give you the habitations that folks encountered. on the next starting point, oorly 1740s. in 1942 and 1743, two french brothers, suns of the explorer who document we read for today go out into probably south dakota, north dakota, it's uncertain. but generally this area aren't black hills. and they're looking for a number of things. but in particular, they're looking for the headwaters that will lead to the pacific. that is the ultimate obtdive of this exploration. they're in the vicinity of the
black hills in south dakota and they think, they report back, if we can just climb the black hills, i bet we could have seen the pacific from the top. and that is not the case. unless can you jump really high. as they're moving around, the bow indians, as in bow and arrow, receive reports of raids by another group of indians who they call the snakes who are probably what we could call shshoney indians. they want to go back to the village and protect it frlt raiders. so the exploration has to be band ond as the bow indians go back to their home. at this time, all the indians have horses. this is fwoek decades later, a little further north. that time, the indians that they encount ver horses. one way that we know just to show you how cool life used to be, one way we know about the
location of the exploration, is well, tugly this is great map as well, one reason, by the way, that these french guys are optimistic that maybe they can see the pacific from the black hills is because there are french views different than the views we have today. there some big sea in north america and this is the leading geographer if n. france who put together this image of what western north america might look like. you would be nervous to see your state is under water. europeans at this time don't really know very much about the geography western north america.
puget sound is a big body of water. it is occasionally and it gives you some idea. so there are some probably some basis for the rumors. but the conclusion that french geographers come to are a little farfetched. this was during recess in 1913, that's back in the days when everything was totally cool. you could find relative exploration, you know, when you were playing tag or something.
so some of the implications, can you see as late as the middle of the 18th century, the french who know a lot about world geography are confused about western north america. you have two french explorers ingenlt on the indians that they're working with. this is not impositions on the dakot dakotas. this is a few scouts trying to figure out what is going on out. there and we notice that horses moved north about it 1740s and that there seems to be indications quite a bit of warfare on the northern plains and western plains by this time. one question we may ask ourselves is why -- when does our study of the spanish start?
why are they still largely confined to places like mexico and texas? we'll talk about that in a second? why isn't there more of a spanish presence as you go into other areas of the plains? that's one question we want to look at. the other question is why are the french moving west and what are the consequences of this movement of the 18th century? what does it matter that the french are pushing west into the plains from canada and louisiana? and then the final question, which is in some ways the most interesting, what is the relationship between what happens in the 18th century on the plains and the kind of iconic image of north american indians that most i think americans have which is someone like a seau wioux warrior on a . that's what comes to your mind if i say indian. so what is the relationship between what we're going to talk about and that big image?
before i do that, let me give you a couple images to orient you and then i'll turn this thing off. this is a manned dam or one interpretation of it in the 18th century. that is something you can have mind when we talk about that document where he is talking about his own individual it to the village. it would have looked something, something like that. this is just a quick image of sort of spanish expansion into texas and late 17th century and early 18th century. you see it sort of moving along the coastal plains. some key places we're going to talk about sansaba which is up here and the missions around san antonio right there which are the ones most significant. get a sense of this expansion of spanish missions up into texas. the alamo from the very attractive historical postcard. i'm not sure they look like this in 1740.
but it certainly looked nice when they did the postcard. this is just to get in your head is a representation of the movement of horses north. so you get the idea of horses starting out here and sort of the southern parts of north america and mechl kexico and ne mexico. you can see the movement of horse as long the plains and into the northwest. we'll talk about that as one of the developmentes. i want you to have a sense of what that looks like physically. not the best map of hudson's bay. but something we haven't talked about too much in class but there is this great inland body of water up in canada, there are the british trading posts on hudson's bay in the late 17th and 18th century. they'll be involved in that story when we discuss that document. i want you to get a feel for those. and then the final image i'll show you is basically i want you to have a sense of new mexico as a kind of sagroup moving into north america. a colony surrounded by a lot of
areas and not controlled about it spanish. that will situate our discussion when we get into that duction. so that should be all we need for the moment. and now let's talk about why the spanish presence and western north america is halting. well, one thing you got to consider, if you look at the spanish empire as a whole, we haven't done that a whole lot wlachlt do you figure is the top priority as an imperial official in some place like madrid or mexico city or lima? >> protect the mines. are there any lucrative mines in new mexico and texas? >> that's later on. but not in the 17th century and 18th century. so if you think about the spanish empire as a whole, it's enormous. it expends to the southern portions of south america and includes what is peru, bolivia, chile, central america. this kind of fringe that we're talking about in new mexico and texas is a long way from the centers of the spanish empire. it tends not to be the priority
for spanish official planners. so in that sense, it's not that surprising that it taz a while for the spanish to begin to launch the forays out into the plains. there are other ways that spanish can allocate the resources. if you recall, for example, the coronado expedition on to the plains in the 16th century, one we didn't talk about much in the early of 1600s, do you recall how those went? not great. okay. so the spanish went out there. and they discovered thousands of pretty foremidable plains indians who weren't necessarily going to welcome the spanish on to the plains. so the spanish found that plains were an area sort of media reward and also significant danger. so that i think is one factor that held spanish expansion back until the 18th century until they started getting worried about the french. the texas, interestingly enough, just gets going in the early decades of the will 18th century and early decades of the 1700s.
what do you think is the impetus for the spanish and spanish missions into coastal texas? what is happening east of texas that might inspire you? [ inaudible ] >> that's exactly it. the french begin a colony in louisiana in 1699. there are french exploration down the mississippi even before 1699. so spanish are nervous about the presence of the french guys and the presence of a french colony which may be a threat to new mexico and mexico. i think that is the primary reason. the spanish expansion into texas, it's generally a few missions with small number of soldiers to go with them. got date to remember is the founding of san antonio in 1718. that is the most significant example of spanish expansion. it's a site that -- well, what do the spanish generally look for before they found a mission or a settlement of some kind?
do you recall from new mexico, for example. yeah? >> established settle ment. >> yeah. and that's exactly what they find. san antonio is already a place with sort of irrigated fields. it's been established by local indian communities. so the spanish in keeping with the pattern are trying to move into an area that seems compatible with their style of life and a place where they can grow food to support the mission. so an an phone yoe in 1718. and the hope again is also the spanish are always looking for settled agriculture indians. that's who they would really like to find because they think they're most compatible with the spanish way of life and most compatible to christianation. they're staying put. they're one place, it's easy to establish a church that can work them. it's only the desperate indians that go there, they don't have any choice about -- they go to the missions for lack of anything better. the population doesn't really
increase. by 1760, san antonio has about 1,000 people. any idea what might make them appealing sites? >> this is a big factor. one dsht reason we'll talk about in a second, texas is a dangerous place in the 1700s. the spanish missions, foerts they establish with them is one potential place of refuge. there is fortifications, there is an alliance with the spanish em peer. you get indians looking to take refuge from other indians in texas in the 18th century. another way to think about this, something they talked about recently. i think it makes sense is that for a lot of indians, they didn't see it as that major of a step or change in the way they were living. they viewed it if, you recall when we talked about the beginning of the class, there
was that seasonal migration of indian groups from one place to another. maybe they would be getting nuts from one particular grove of trees moving inland and to the coast. there is evidence that the texas indians viewed the spanish missions as another stop in the seasonal migrations. there would be food, a place of refuge. so they just viewed them as sort of a adaptation of lifestyle rather than a total change it in. you do get some of the spanish missions. though not great success. they don't generate a lot of wealth dhoevenlt get a lot of people. they're highly vulnerable to indian rates. they don't really establish, again, a dominating spanish presence in texas. one way you can get a sense of that vulnerability is to look at something which we can call the san saba fiasco. which is essentially a spanish effort to move north well beyond
san antonio. what happens is at the request of local apache indians, in 1757, the spanish build a mission at san saba in 1757. you get a spanish mission, 1757. in 1758, one year later, a group of indians most likely in an alliance of comancehs and ear groups from the north, they annihilate the san saba mission. it is an indication of the kind of vulnerability even of a spanish fordfied position in texas. seeing that, viewing that as unacceptable, the spanish try to pursue the comanches north and what they find as they go north is a well fortified indian camp. a stock aid with ditch and walls. it's not clear where that came from. the span whoish attacked this fortification claim there is all kinds of guns and ammunition.
there is not a lot of evidence during that case. there are people carrying the flags. there were 52 people killed or wounded. the key point is again here, the weakness of the spanish in texas and also the fact that indians are pretty foremidable. they have fortifications and mobile striking power on horses, they can also build fortifications that can repel spanish attack. they don't have a clear military advantage in places like texas. new mexico is also an interesting case at this tichl our course. we'll talk about california on wednesday. new mexico remains as you see from that map similar to what it's been throughout the course. i doesn't have a massive expansion in the 1700s.
new mexico as was the case in the 17th century is never a big revenue generator for the spanish empire. the french are convinced it was and trying to get to it. new mexico is a poor frontier colony at a long supply route from new mexico. it never finds the silver mines, for example thashgts spanish were hoping for. it is relatively small in terms of pop laction as wm. isolated tend of a very long supply route from mexico city and still doesn't have any big earning commodity. >> there are some production of sort of local crops. that's not a great export commodity. there is a small fir trade.
there is a slave trade in new mexico sending indian slaves and taking in raids around new mexico down into mexico itself. they are not a part of the span ar ish alliance system. that is part of new mexico's economy. the biggest problem new mexico has in addition to the fact that economically it is relatively meeger is what would you guess is the biggest problem new mexico has? >> it's a long ways away from the center and all that goes it with like help. it's a long way from centers of spanish power. what is it close to? >> lots of very angry indians.
>> yeah. >> that's exactly right. there are a lot of indian people surrounding new mexico who become more and more foremidable. they have to worry about the comanches to the west and the patchies. stle to worry about the navajos to the northwest. there's a lot of people. a lot of indian groups and governor of new mexico has to be concerned b they're increasingly carrying french weapons. one big difference between the spanish colonies in new mexico and texas and the french colony in louisiana is the spanish discouraged trade with guns with western indians. the french encourage traded guns with western indians. that makes the spanish very, very nervous.
let's talk now about -- let's shift from the spanish colonies and talk about the indians out on the plains. the first thing to talk about is that when we're talking about the 1700s, there are a number, a lot of indian communities on the great plains who are growing crops. this development really starts about 1700 a.d. we go way back. this prehistory of the course. what you see is very gradually the sort of movement of the growing of corn kind of moving up the mississippi and moving west along the tributaries of the mississippi.
they have a significant village that's are growing a lot of corn right around them. so the villages, for example that, they revisit are surrounded by corn fields. the pawnees are another examples. what tends to happen in communities whether they can grow a lot of food? the population grows. so one thing you get is that these pawnee and mandan towns and other towns like this often really big. hundreds or even thousands of people living in these some cases fortified substantial villageors towns along the tributaries of the mississippi and the missouri. before 700.
these villages aren't just growing corn. they're also hunting buffalo. i'm not sure you want to supplement a diet with corn and buffalo. they tl is basic production. and about it 18th century they start getting horses. the spanish see some of these in the 16th century and they continue to see them in the 17th and 18th century. big towns out on the plains. so that's one big sort of feature of the planes at this time. this is what makes the plains an exciting place and a dramatic place. it's one of those things in the 1700s. let's go back to your iconic aimth ai image of an american indian, a guy on a horse. when does that start? well, when the spanish arrive, when the french arrive in north america, are there sources in north america?
they bring horses with them when the span arab rife. what would happen the spanish move to new mexico. a horse is what gives thm a military shang. what would happen if the horses just in the normal run of events with spanish settlement to new mexico? they'll escape. horses can move. even before -- even by the sort of middle of the p 17th century, some horses are get ago way from the spanish. and in some cases they're get ago way from the possessions of the indian people around new mexico. they seem to have horses even before the pueblo revolt. that's one thing that happens. in addition to the spanish being driven out of new mexico or at least santa fe in the northern settlementes, lots of horses.
now for a few moments, i just want you to think of yourself as a horse. okay? you're feeling good. maybe you cross that little range of meloountains and take look over the plains and what do you think? there is lots and lots of grass and not lots of horses. there are the buffalo things but can you deal with them. right? they're fun qui looking. so when the horses get away from new mexico, especially those that get out on to the plains this is a great place to be a horse and consequently horses multiply very quickly out on the plains, as you would expect. okay. so that's the horse side of the
story. but there is this other side of the story as well. they're north of new mexico. maybe you're moving on to the plains yourself. and suddenly you see these big animals. you have some knowledge maybe that they can be domesticated and a little bit of experimentation you kind of pick up the horse for yourself. they're more foremidable creatures of the early modern world f you wanted to have a good example of a people who profit from the presence of spanish horses, the comanches are a pretty good one. they are a people who are sort of culturally related. they get to the plains around 1700. they're living in the great basin. they move down into the plains at a time when horses are already there. quite quickly in the 1700s, they
adopt horses for themselves and make it a critical part of their lifestyle. they essentially become a mounted people. now what is the advantage of being a mounted people on the plains in the 1700s? what can do you if you have horses? >> you can hunt buffalo. >> it is much easier to hunt buffalo when you have horses. what is an advantage of hunting buffalo? besides exciting? yeah? absolutely. yep. absolutely. you have a great source of protein which is critical. and you have all kinds of items which can you sell to other people. you can sell buffalo hides to indians when you go to different trade fares. so horses give people like the comanches and suddenly they can hunt at a greater distance, more efficiently, they can take advantage of the buffalos in the plains who when the horses got there the buffalo said this is also actually great place to be a buffalo. because the plains are a good
place for your basic grass eater. so that's one thing. what else? now that's nice. okay, you can hunt buffalo. that's good. what else can you do with your horses? yeah? [ inaudible ] yeah. and that's kind of neutral language. you can expand your control. what would that expansion of control feel like? yeah, you can get on your horse and take a lance or maybe can you trade with the french in louisiana and get a gun. you can move very quickly and all of a sudden you have a big military advantage over the folks you kind of quarrel with for the past two decades. one thing that happens is the comanches, one group moves over to west texas and they move around a lochlt but the comanches are now militarily an extremely foremidable group of people. even without rifles. but certainly when they begin to get guns from the french, they can move fast. they can attack, for example,
isolated spanish settle ments, they can hit an outlying ranch. take what they want and then disappear before the spanish can get them. so they dcan prior to the sort of movement of the comanches, the apaches had been the dominant group in that area. after the comanches get horses the apaches are no longer the dominant group. they disperse off the southern plains. some look for refuge with the spanish missions in texas. some move into the more mountain ous areas, kind of south of new mexico, west of new mexico. but they are driven away essentially by the comanches who become this dominant force on the southern plains over the course of the 1700s. it's important to know that they can raid but that trading pont is important as well. one thing you see a lot of, in some years the comanches or groups like them will show up at
a trade fair and it will be peaceful. they'll exchange buffalo items. for various things which we'll talk about in the document in a second. other years they'll raid the spanish. it depends on a variety of factors. there's altercation between violent interactions and rather peaceful economic interactions. that's true on the plains as a whole. one of the great ironies, it extends to a number of different plains peoples over the course of the 1700s. if you recall that map i showed you at beginning of the class, as the horse moves north, different peoples adopt horses. the sioux will eventually adopt horses. the cheyenne when they get to the plains will adopt horses. you get a lot of tumult on the plains. some groups profit from horses. some groups are terrified by groups that have horses. you can see some of the consequences of people beginning to move easily across the plains
and raid one another. one of the great ironies of this. who are the baddest people in history? >> [ inaudible ]. >> i think they are a contender. you get into the 20th century, there's a lot of competition. before the 20 century, i think genghis khan you could argue. he's the baddest dude in history. before that, attila and the huns. what characterizes some of the classic baddies? i mean no quarrel with mongolia. i think if you took a poll, they'd come up. i think they're pumped about this in mongolia as far as i can tell. what characterizes some of the baddest -- yes. >> they were on horses and they were -- >> absolutely. so one of the great continuities of eurasian history is they get
have these guys that get horses and that enables them to be these really formidable mountain people. they don't have guns but these compound bows. terrifying weapons. 12 horses at a time to ride at a sprint and then shift horses. you'll see this alteration in between the nomads and the settled peoples who always have to deal with this presence to the north. any idea when the step nomads are done as a feature of eurasian history? basically -- yeah, go ahead. >> [ inaudible ]. >> even earlier, actually. it's really the 18th century where china launches this expansion out to the west and destroys the major step empires out there in the west. this goes well beyond our course. this feature of eurasian history ends.
they are no longer worried about step nomads. what is ironic is that exactly the moment that a certain kind of lifestyle, certain kind of military technology or tactics, exactly the moment it's over, finished, antiquated in eurasia, it suddenly appears on the plains of north america. there's this balancing mechanism in the world where horses crop up and they have their heyday in north america. should we take a break? pardon me? >> [ inaudible ]. >> i didn't think about that. i didn't think about that. let me look at a few more points. where do the french fit into this whole story? the french are trying to expand from louisiana and canada. they have a number of
objectives. finishing up the discussion of the spread of the horses on to the plains. people rising and falling very quickly. the shoshoni indians with the bows everyone was so frightened of. when lewis & clark go west, the shoshonis are hiding in the rockies trying to survive. people with a brief moment of dominance on the plains, it's often brief. the acquisition of horses and rifles. it's going to be brief. that's going to lead into the 19th century. the other factor, what i talked about how -- if you are a horse and you imagine you go out in the mountains and plains and say this is totally excellent, assuming there's two horses,
what happens relatively quickly after the horses get on to the plains and start eating grass? three horses, four horses, five horses. and then indian groups breeding horses. you have a lot of horses on the plains. already a lot of buffaloes on the plains. they seem infinite. they seem to have no apparent end. they do have an end and so what happens, and also the climate is highly unstable. wet periods, dry periods, hot periods, cold periods. what happens when you have thousands of new -- yeah? >> [ inaudible ]. >> exactly. so certainly by the 19th century you have hints of an eco crisis on the plains when there's too many grass eating animals out there. there's only so many animals the plains can sustain. it just gives you a sense of introducing something like the
horse into a new environment, the consequences are endless. all kinds of things happen. ecologically, militarily, culturally. it's a big change in many ways. let's briefly talk about the french and then go for discussion. the french are expanding west from louisiana and canada. it's a little different than what you saw in the 17th century. there are still missionaries involved but a bit less of an emphasis. more of an emphasis on trade and furz and human beings as well. emphasis on missionary, conversion of indians. the french are quite happy to trade guns. that does give them an advantage. what do you figure the french are looking for as they go west into north america? why would they bother to go at all? yeah. >> pacific. >> they're still hoping there's going to be some passage to the pacific.
some easy water route leading to the pacific. this seems far-fetched. jefferson in the first decade of the 19th century is still thinking lewis and clark might find a gentle plateau and then there will be this nice navigable river. what do they discover when they get west of the rockies? idaho which is just one range of mountains after another. the french don't know that so they're still hoping for a relatively easy way to get to the pacific. they are hoping for a route to the pacific. they're also hoping for new trading partners. they've heard rumors there may be elaborate civilizations on the pacific coast. from what they've heard from second and third and fourth hand indian accounts, they think japan or china may have outposts in the pacific
northwest. maybe there's some kind of indian civilizations. what might give rise to that kind of story in places further to the east where the french might pick them up? anybody from british columbia or washington state? you do have in the northwest, we'll talk about this, big sophisticated indian towns in the pacific northwest with monumental architecture, big ocean going canoes, fantastic sculpture, living in really fantastic wealth. you just have to dip your hand in the water and you find two salmon. you are talking about information traveling hundreds and hundreds of miles could set up stories of sophisticated indian peoples. so the french are very curious. they've heard there may be europeans somewhere in the west. spanish somewhere, russian some place else. they're trying to figure this out. the french are moving to the west.
the big limitations on the french, there's not a lot of them. they are beyond the range of french power. these are very small parties. as we know, what do the french do to compensate for the fact there aren't that many of them? >> they align themselves with -- >> exactly. they try to make friends and become the allies of those indian groups. what's the same problem? so in the 17th century, the french allied themselves with different indian groups and that makes them enemies of -- >> the iroquois. >> as the french move west, they align with different graup grou the plains. they're trying to work with all these groups. who do they antagonize? the sioux. bad call. it's the french in certain ways are among the least lucky. the enemies they make are formidable enemies.
and that's one thing, as they're moving out, one of his sons. killed by a sioux war party as part of this exploration. even as the sioux make certain allies they also antagonize other groups. if we wanted to summarize the takeaway points, the first thing is regional dynamism. the plains are not static in the 1700s. all kinds of changes are going on. long-term dynamism, corn-based agriculture. the horse coming out on to the plains in the late 17th and 18th century. this is a very different place. regional dynamism. a second point is the presence of crop-growing peoples which is different than your iconic image of the plains indians. look at how many of these kinds of indian people we've seen. the folks desoto met, coronado met.
pueblo indians in new mexico. different groups in arizona. the iroquois. we're seeing these groups of indians who are different from the classic stereotype. it's worth noticing how many examples we're talking about. and the third point is the formation of the horse peoples of the plains in the 1700s. this is a crucial development and it does set the stage for a lot of what you see in the 19th century. that's enough of me talking. now i'm going to make you guys perspire. shift a little bit to discussion and we'll see how much fun you had over thanksgiving. these documents were very short. no extra essays. these should be a pleasure. even if not, i can guide us through because these i quite enjoy. we want to start with the french or new mexico? the french it is.
all right then. so we've got this account. in the fall and early winter of 1738 he's going out to visit some villages on the upper missouri. same villages that would be visited more than half a century later by the lewis and clark expedition. same broad cultural group. if la verendrye is trying to -- what is he hoping for from the indians? what kind of relationship would he like to establish? what kind of relationship do the french always want to establish? >> create an alliance. >> some kind of trading alliance. go ahead and raise your hand before asking a question. that will give time for the microphone to move toward you. it's difficult because we're fast paced. a physical microphone has difficulty keeping up with the rapidity of our thought.
it's true. the discussion moves fast. so some kind of -- you know, some kind of trading relationship and alliance. so if you are going to establish a french trading relationship, if you want them to trade with the french, who do you not want groups like the mandan to trade with? it's the great white north, up where canada is right now? so remember that map i showed you way back at the beginning of class and i showed you -- let me just go over to this map. so you have this big inland sea called hudson bay. and on the edges of hudson bay the british establish these little trading posts.
and the british, what they try to do is encourage indians from england to come to these posts along the edge and give them what? what logically in the age before -- what's the great virtue of northern canada in terms of a commodity? absolutely. they establish these posts and want these interior indians to do all the work of getting the furs, making this long trip and just giving the furs to those on hudson bay. how does this make you feel? outmaneuvered, okay. so for example, page 295, in the right-hand column, he talks
about, i got the two chiefs to come to my tent. i knew they went every year to the english post. one received a collar from the english together as a present. so what's the problem? these indians trading with british and you don't want that. if you are la verendrye, what do you do to draw these western indians, what can you do to draw them away from the english? >> give them better gifts? >> exactly. it's true. nice. and it's better gifts and gifts. so that's one interesting aspect of this. the french are trying to establish a trading relationship but they have to get the trading relationship started by giving stuff away. there's a high initial investment of giving gifts. so what else can -- if the british rely on just sitting in
these little forts on hudson bay, what can the french do? yeah. >> they actually go out to the indian forts and communicate directly. >> that's exactly what they do. the french begin moving west. there is a chain of lakes extending west from the great lakes. they go into northern canada. the french are moving out into the western interior of north america and trying to get to western indians before the indians get to hudson bay. they are going to the trading partners rather than waiting for them to go to hudson bay. they are working a lot harder. when are the -- let's see. are the western indians without a negotiating position, without leverage? what do they say? we'd love to have a trading relationship with you, if --
for example, recent years the french abandon us, i did send to hudson bay. as long as the frenchman remains in our lands, we promise not to go elsewhere. what's the up shot of that? yeah. >> -- just move from point a to point b. >> they can have demands on the french. they want a consistent relationship. you can't just come and go. you have to come and stay. they are asking for an ongoing relationship that will be equal in value or predictability. you can see they are moving the french. we'd love to be your friends, but here's what we expect from you. a kind of negotiation going on. let's see. there's on 296 as we're going down, they say we'll keep quite as he desires and let the sioux
do the same. our heart is still sore on account of your son. so part of this french effort and french expansion, this movement of these trading relationships, some french people don't come back. it's a dangerous operation. all right. what -- let's see here. what makes it great to be a mandan or to visit the mandan? >> you have this impressive fortification and they're also expert traders. >> absolutely. you go to the mandan, you don't find a bunch of tents or a poultry settlement. you find a town with fortifications, with a moat. it sounds like something formidable to deal with.
so it's sort of impressive physically. what is the basis for this town? what establishes its position on the northern plains? what does it have to offer? yeah. and you can figure. so if some people live by hunting buffalo, for example, and other people spent a lot of time growing corn, what might be a basis of exchange? yes. >> buffalo for corn. >> that's one thing. you can imagine the exchange of agricultural products which we saw back in new mexico. if you have a nice town with nice houses and spend a lot of time in those houses in north dakota and south dakota, what can you do with your spare time in your rich agricultural village on the upper missouri
with your buffalo hides you traded and hunted yourself. >> you can work with it. you can create clothing and other goods. >> absolutely. the mandan are also the manufacturing center. they make baskets, clothing, all kinds of goods out of animal products and agricultural products which they can then trade with other northern plains people who are less sedentary and move around. the mandans seem to be quite good at that. that's one thing la verendrye observes. you can trade. it's well fortified. are you happy to have people visit? i think so. it's nice to have people trade with you. may be establish a relationship with the french. when people do visit, when
people show up at your village, what do they want to do with your corn? what are your obligations as a host? >> they need to feed them but they don't want them to eat it all. >> the roaming people from the plains, when they show up as guests, they get to eat a lot of the mandan corn. does this remind you of anything from way back in the course? >> his large group of texas indians and they were going to towns and eating the pueblo corn. >> i'm not entirely sure what to make about this, but this is reminiscent, the idea of folks moving around the plains. europeans that serve as the center of attraction. that provides you an entree to an agricultural village where you can eat and that seems to be an agricultural factor. if the mandan are concerned the
group is eating too much of their corn, what did they say? this will give you a sense of their play? >> the sioux are coming to attack. >> exactly. >> on one hand the acidouan are the butt of all the jokes. i think the mandan look down on them even the french do as well. they are clearly worried about the sioux. what does that tell you about these different things? we talked about trade. that's one thing that makes the mandan a prosperous village. the villages are a trading center for the plains. we talked about the fact that all you have to do is say the sioux are over there, and your visitor will run away. what does this say about the tenor of life on the northern plains? >> it's quite complex and there's different understandings between the cultural groups saying i want you to do this in return for this. a high level of organization that one might not expect.
>> there's economic relationships. there's violent relationships, relationships that change regularly. there's a lot going on. you can see how for someone like la verendrye trying to figure out how this works. who is afraid of whom and who is allied, and that's not so easy. and that's part of the difficulties the french have when they get out into the northern plains is to understand these relationships, which are changing rapidly. so if the french are interested in finding europeans or what they'd call civilized people out in the west, do they find them when they get to the mandans? does he feel like, yeah, this is what i was looking for? he doesn't sound that excited. he's happy to meet the mandan but he'd heard rumors there was a european-like people on the northern plains and feels disappointed.
what reports does he get? do the mandan talk about any other groups on the plains who may be european style? page 301 in the left-hand column, talks about the panana and pananis. built their lodges in the same way they did. you could not see the land on the other side. the water was not drinkable. among all the tribes, the word iron seems to be applied to all metals. you could not kill any of these men as they had iron armor. by killing a horse you could capture the man easily because he could not run. who are we talking about? probably. yeah, most likely. it's most likely an account of the spanish in new mexico which has made its way to the north or
some mixing of categories. there are indians associated with new mexico who have spanish weaponry. pueblo indians and other groups adopting horses. but probably the root of this is the account of the spanish. what does that tell you about information networks on the northern plains. everybody hides in the village and never talks. is movement restricted? new mexico is a long way from south dakota and north dakota. so if information, if the mandan can talk about the spanish, that could suggest that information seems to be moving on the plains. what would facilitate the spread of information on the plains, possibly, in the 1700s? >> [ inaudible ]. >> yeah, conceivably horses are moving information more quickly. it's also possible people are terrified by horse peoples.
it certainly raises the question that most people are moving things like information and trading goods longer distances. let's shift a little bit to new 1754. mexico governor. he's writing a report to his successor saying if you want to be governor of new mexico, this is what you need to do. this flows from what we talked about earlier. what's the big problem if you are the governor of new mexico? what keeps you up at night? practically answers itself. yes. native attacks. >> potentially. there's a danger of pueblo revolts but also attacks from indians outside the colony. what might make a revolt less likely in the 18th century than the 17th century? >> because they've already very brutally put one down so dissuade people from doing it
again. >> the unfortunate experience with the previous rebellion. and the fact that outside of new mexico there's all these indian groups as potentially dangerous to the pueblo indians as the spanish. they are surrounded by people who are potentially trading partners and potentially dangers to the settlements. so let's get a sense of this. so what -- how do i put this. so who are some of the names, some of the groups of indians talked about? so for example on page 303 you have the barbarous tribes of apaches, comanches, utes, one after another. so what -- let's just go into the utes. so when he talks about the
settlements of new mexico on the north, which because of war with the utes had been destroyed. so is new mexico a stable colony? no. there's certain areas. sort of northern parts of new mexico which are in danger of being essentially kind of wiped out. it's not just the comanches have horsed. groups like the utes who live in what is now utah, they moved out of new mexico and have also adopted horses and had an alliance with the comanches. they can raid spanish and mexico. the conservation of the friendship of this and the rest of its allied tribes is one of the greatest consideration because of the favorable results which their trade and good relations bring to this province. what has he done? if you can't beat them -- >> [ inaudible ].
>> yeah, or ally with them. a group like the utes who are capable of ravaging northern parts of new mexico. the thing to do is establish an alliance with the utes so take the people who are raiding your settlements and make them your friends so you can protect your settlements. find allies among the people most dangerous to you. is the relationship between new mexico and the surrounding indians on the plains, is it always one of hostility? it is not. sometimes there are trade fairs where they come in from the plains, the utes come down from the mountains. sometimes there are these sort of trade fairs where groups like the comanches will come in and utes will come down from the mountains. if you're the governor of new mexico and you have hundreds of
groups of indians coming together in these big trade fairs, what might you as a governor want to do to make sure this works out nicely? what's the danger when you bring together hundreds of people from different ethnic groups, many of whom are heavily armed with guns and lances and have horse and they're involved in economic relationships where there's sometimes a danger that there will be a little trickery and fraud and deceit? remember what happened with some of the gifts? they had that big bag and what happened? somebody stole the bag of goodies. he's like santa claus losing the toy bag. what can happen when people bring lots of stuff to exchange? what's one danger? actually, what are multiple dangers? >> theft, violence, and fraud. >> exactly. business. it's all the things that happen today. there's a danger when you get
all these people together you're going to have people stealing each other's stuff, people trying to cheat each other and getting very angry about it afterwards. you're going to have theft, fraud, what was the other one? violence. you're going to have people who didn't like each other last year who are suddenly staring at each other across a field outside of santa fe. there's a danger of violence between all these groups. what do you do as the governor of new mexico to keep a lid on all this? you've got troops in santa fe. they're not huge but you have a presence. if you want to do a business deal today, what precedes the business deal today? >> wine and dine them, give them some gifts. >> exactly. you wine and dine, share a smoke together, which you don't do now. at the time you would smoke pipes together and establish that this is kind of a friendly relationship. you reassure one another.
as governor of new mexico can you walk out and say, inferior barbarian savages, bow down before me. good strategy? very bad strategy. what do you do instead? what would you do today? i'm glad to see you. how's the horse, the wives. how did that raid go last year? probably stop doing that. you got to be polite and not condescending and not let on what they actually feel. you need to have good manners with people who are numerous and heavily armed. what's the danger if you see that the spanish are aligned with the utes, you have an occasional relationship with the comanches, what would be the end of new mexico?
just think about it. you're surrounded by different indian nations. what would cause the end of new mexico? >> if they all allied together. >> exactly. you want to be on good terms with lots of these folks, you definitely don't want to be on bad terms with all of them. there's not that many spanish in new mexico. the nightmare would be if all the surrounding indians simultaneously were hostile to new mexico. you can't defend yourself against that many people. you want to have trading fairs where it's profitable to act peacefully, but sometimes people are just -- they just won't listen to reason. what do you have to do then? the comanches, for example. he talks about you've got to chase the -- page 304. the tribe is equally pacific and maintains an attitude of good
faith. since i punished them with the rigor of the armed forces. i have observed with them the greatest equity and kindness and made them understand the authority of our arms and they were excessively arrogant from dominating the rest of the tribes. what do you got to do? >> attack them to show -- >> yeah. you got to be polite. you don't want to look for trouble. you have to show from time to time that you are formidable. occasionally the spanish will be sort of called upon to go out and humble one of these indian nations. they think of the comanches as the most elevated in their sense of themselves in part because the comanches are dominating the area between new mexico and texas and they feel like the lords of the southern plains because they're kind of the lords of the southern plains. if you want to have peace with the utes, ideally you would like to keep things stable with the comanches.
you got many other groups which he talks about. who would you like to concentrate your attention on? if you want to make peace with everybody except one group, who's the one group you want to get rid of your other enemies or stabilize the relationship your enemies so there's one group of people you can go after. if you only knew five indian nations from your extensive watching of western movies when you were growing up which i know doesn't happen with your generation. yeah? yes, the apaches. they were on the southern plains and they've moved into areas south of new mexico into northern mexico. they are conducting extensive raid on spanish settlements. let's make peace with everybody else and go after these guys. let's attack the apaches and end these raid not just on new mexico but other spanish settlements in what is now northern mexico. what makes it so difficult to
defend new mexico and the other spanish settlements? what's the strategic difficulty? sam? yeah, it's a big place. it's a large colony. it's thinly settled so it's not especially densely populated. you've got a large area with a lot of outlying ranches and small villages and so forth. what's the great danger for a spanish ranch for example in the 1750s? >> the apaches could show up to your house, burn it down, do a little dance and leave long before anybody even realized what was happening. >> exactly.
the great problem is there's no way -- the spanish can't keep a military force in every ranch in new mexico. they've got these disbursed settlements and they're highly vulnerable. the apaches can attack an outlying settlement and the spanish can't do that much about it. on 308 talking about the people of new mexico, because of their extreme poverty they are worthy of compassion. their small houses which consist of a few horses, cattle and sheep are exposed to the attacks of the barbarians. it can be guarded by scouts continually and impede the enemy from getting access. the enemy never comes in large numbers but small parties to hide their trail and prevent their discovery. it talks about albuquerque later. the settlers wish to have a soldier for every cow and horse they pasture so they have nothing to worry about. i've tried to accustom the idea that each one should take care of the defense of his own hacienda. so what's the solution?
>> you're on your own. >> so the solution is you got flying parties who try to guard the access routes to the settlements, mountain passes and so forth. that doesn't always work. then the other thing is, well, good luck. just imagine hypothetically for some reason you're in mexico city and it comes into your mind, i need to immigrate, go someplace else, how about new mexico. doesn't seem like it would be that appealing if the basic message is, you can work this out on your own. so you see the dangers of new mexico. now i'm going to hand back the papers. american history tv airs on
c-span3 every weekend, telling the american story through events, interviews and visits to historic locations. this month american history tv is in primetime to introduce you to programs you could see every weekend on c-span3. our features include lectures in history, visits to college class rooms across the country to hear lectures by top history professors, american artifacts takes a look at the treasures at u.s. historic sites, museums and archives, reel america revealing the 20th century through archival films and news reels, the civil war, where you hear about the people who shaped the civil war and reconstruction, and the presidency focuses on u.s. presidents and first ladies to learn about their politics, policies and legacies. all this month in primetime and every weekend on american history tv on c-span3. this week during american history tv in primetime, we feature our lectures in history series taking you into college classrooms across the country.
each night we debut a new lecture and tonight it is native americans. at 8:00 eastern, we'll take you to dartmouth college for an overview of american indian history. and then at 9:20, the clolonial west from a the class of the college of william and mary and then florida state lecture on the creek indians and the first seminole war. that's tonight on american history tv, primetime. with the house and senate returning from their summer break next week, on thursday, at 8:00 p.m. eastern, we'll preview four key issues facing congress this fall. federal funding to combat the zika virus. >> women in america today want to make sure that they have the ability to not get pregnant, why? because mosquitos ravage pregnant women. >> today, they turn down the very money that they argued for last may and decided to gamble with the lives of children like
this. >> the annual defense policy and programs bill. >> all of these votes are very vital to the future of this nation. and a time of turmoil and a time of the greatest number of refugees since the end of world war ii. >> gun violence legislation and criminal justice reform. >> every member of this body, every republican and every democrat wants to see less gun violence. >> we must continue to work the work of nonviolence and demand an end to senseless killing everywhere. >> and the resolution for congress to impeach irs commissioner john koskinen. >> house resolution 828 impeaching john andrew koskinen, commissioner of the internal revenue service, for high crimes and misdemeanors. >> we'll review the expected congressional debate with susan ferrechio, correspondent for the
washington examiner. join us thursday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span for congress this fall. up next on lectures in history, florida state university professor andrew frank discusses the creek indians and the first seminole war, which took place in the early 19th century in the southeastern part of the u.s. and spanish controlled florida. the war was fought in part to prevent slaves from fleeing into florida. florida state university is in tallahassee. the class is about 50 minutes. >> if we think back where we were last week, and the week before, the seminoles are forming in georgia. we have all this large context. we've talked about coal essence, civilization, migration, all of these different themes. we've even talked about this idea whether we thought the no